I can relate to your feelings about hell. When I was a christian, the thought of hell really tormented me. I went through periods of depression because as I looked around me all I saw were a lot of people that would end up in hell. I could never understand why a loving god would send people there. I used to worry a lot about my brother and sister who weren't christians. I was a christian for about 20 years, and I gave it up only 7 months ago. I was even a missionary for a little while. I tried to ignore the thought of hell, but eventually it would come back to haunt me..and for all those years it was the fear of hell that stopped me from giving up christianity.
But eventually I think I just got to breaking point, I think my common sense finally prevailed and I had the guts to stop believing, and stop fearing hell. It really is great not having such a heavy burden on my mind! Not worrying about the people around me going to hell!
I really wonder about all the christians in the world, when (or if) they really think about hell seriously....if they are honest.....do they really believe a loving god would send people to hell?
Thanks for your testimony! I hope you stay encouraged and don't ever go back!!
Cheers!

Andrew, you are mentally ill. I've been reading your sick posts in Craig's List. Your cruel posts there reveal your need for professional help.

Please get back on your medication. Nothing good will come from your derangement.

One of the first questions I will always ask a true hardcore Christian who claims that God/Jesus are pure unconditional love, is how Hell could even exist at all. They just can't admit for an all loving God and Hell to exist would make as much sense as a square circle.

Let me give you a working model of unconditional love. One of my best friends was a cocaine addict. He put his elderly father through Hell. He bullied him for money, stole his car, and pretty much made his life a living Hell. My friend finally took his own life at 40.

To see that father at the funeral, was to see pure unconditional love. He was devastated and wanted nothing but the best for his son who often abused him. He completely forgave his actions.

Yet a God can't be big enough to do this to someone who simply doesn't believe in him?

I give Fred Phelps and his gang this: At least they don't claim God to be unconditional love with their strong proclamation of Hell.

Oh come on Dave now I want to know what that asshole said.

Hi lonely. There is not a whole lot I can add to your post. I did take note of your phrase "sweet relief". My god, the very air itself smells sweet. I feel--pardon my choice of words--born again.

My little story can be found at the thread about the pastor and sexual abuse of the teenager, just below this one.

Sweet relief.......I don't have to go back to that church.

WHen I was a christian it was about guilt shame and fear. I find more peace as a Pagan (not a christo pagan, those people creep me out!) ANyways, christianity is just the new kid on the block, always telling others how to live. Not one christian has ever lived thier faith, besides maybe JPII and MLK jr. But those are two examples out of millions of christians. Which is rather sad. I believe it is better to be yourself, than to hang on to some guru's every word. Hell even Budda said some things I dont agree with. In my mind, thats the way it should be.

Pardon the expression, but bless you in your journey away from insanity. I sense you are still quite young, and therefore both blessed and cursed -- blessed by getting out early, cursed by the usual youthful susceptibility to indoctrination. Beware those who would try and reconvert you -- they are everywhere.

I kinda gave up on the idea of hell when I was a kid -- it seemed so ludicrous and so clearly a way to control people with fear. And without the fear of hell, it is generally easier to leave belief behind.

It took me years to put xtianity behind me due to fear of what that meant to me: no afterlife, no meeting up with old relatives and historical figures I wanted to know, no "meaning" to my existence other than the meaning I create. It was never fear of hell, it was always fear of annihilation that scared me. One day I woke up and realized I couldn't pretend anymore, regardless of my fear.

Regarding hell, I think most xtians don't really think deeply about the meaning of it. Most folks have little to no understanding of an infinite timeline, so I believe most of them think it is 'just desserts' for those who sin or doubt. Sort of like getting sent to your room for a while after hitting your brother or sister.

Am I correct here that most of you folks who had a firm commitment to the idea of hell finally couldn't reconcile that to the idea of an omnibenevolent god? When I believed in hell, it was no deep belief, and I feel that those, like our little friend Andrew, don't really give it much thought, at least anymore than a kid who yells 'oh yeah, well your mother wears army boots!'

Xrayman, I have had discussions like you mentioned, but the 'true believers' always fall back on the 'just god' position, as though that answered all questions (i.e. god is merciful, but he is also a just god, and therefore his hands are tied by our sinful actions against him -- what can he do?)

All you have to do to see the folly of the idea of eternal torment is use an analogy such as this:

You have a child, whom you love deeply, but they are a handful. One day they curse you out, so you banish them from the house forever. They can't make it on their own, they are only children, but you refuse to listen. They beg, plead, cry, and even gnash their teeth, but to no avail. You won't open the door, won't listen to their cries for help, won't acknowledge them in any way whatsoever, and you intend to keep it that way forever and ever.

Keep in mind this is the LIBERAL view of hell! In the fundie view, you would pour a canister of gasoline on them and set them ablaze.

I have children, and they can be a real chore, but no matter what, my love for them overcomes my occasional anger. We make peace. We laugh and love each other. I make it as clear as crystal that my love for them is unwavering, regardless of their actions. Now, if I, a simple little human of no great account, can manage this, why can't the supposed supreme ruler of the universe? AND keep in mind, it is for the SAME infractions that he supposedly will cast us into the outer darkness. Do the math.

I would like to take this opportunity to explain to you from a Christian perspective unconditional love. In actuality, xrayman has already explained it for me. Let us recall a quote from xrayman:” to see that father at the funeral was to see pure unconditional love. He was devastated and wanted nothing but the best for his son who often abused him. He completely forgave his actions.” This is how God looks at us. For in this story, each one of us is acting like this cocaine addict towards our father, God. Throughout our lives, we bully our father, we steal from our father, and we disrespect our father. There are times when we turn our backs on our father; there are times when we curse our father. Even through all of this, our father, God, still loves us even though He is hurt by our thoughtless actions. So when you think of that devastated father at the funeral only wanting the best for his abusive son, remember, God only wants the best for you.

Thanks and God Bless,
Apologist777

apologist777 wrote:
Throughout our lives, we bully our father, we steal from our father, and we disrespect our father

Yes, but at least we know our earthly father exists.

>So when you think of that devastated father at the funeral only wanting the best for his abusive son, remember, God only wants the best for you.

So if your god only wants the best for us, then how to you explain his need to torment us non-believers for all eternity in a hell that he built just for that purpose?

Why is it this weak god of yours, has a huge need to be worshipped by lowly mortals?
Would your god die if he didn't receive this needed worship from us?

Why would your god get angry enough to fry us, if we don't give him this adoration?

Your god sounds terribly weak and human to me, possibly because humans invented all gods, yours included.


ATF (The Anti-Apologist 666, for this post)

All the stuff that the apologist777 said is what I have heard a thousand times when I was a christian listening to sermons about hell etc...
But it doesn't make any sense...
You can't compare "god"s "unconditional love" to an earthly father's unconditional love. For one thing, we can see, touch, hear, and smell our earthly father, so we never have to wonder if he actually exsists. But "god" is what...hiding from us? How is that love? if an all-loving, all-powerful god was real, why is he hiding?
if an earthly father was regected and abused by his own child, i have no doubt that even if the child never asked for forgiveness, and never repented, the father would never (if it were in his power) send is own child to hell for all eternity. Yet "god" who is suposedly all powerful and all loving, not only (according to the buybull) created such an awful place as hell, but chooses (yes he chooses) to send his own "creation" to hell forever and ever, with no hope at all for escape...everyday for eternity he would hear ours cries of plea, yet his all-loving ears would be deaf to our cries.
THAT IS NOT AN ALL LOVING GOD

Hey Apologist777

How the fuck can you compare your God who will send his children to an eternal roasting to my friend's father who truly wanted peace for his son? God Damn the Christian mind set just blows me away with it's nonsensical logic. Now if your doctrine stated all go to Heaven no matter what, then your logic would make sense.

xrayman

Hello Apologist

I can see that you didn't quite get the welcome you might have expected. I myself wish you would go away, but I will briefly join this august company in my own style of rant.

I myself just walked out of a perfectly hideous church, and I am still trying to wash off the stink. They did not want the best for me. I was made to feel small and unloved. When I experienced normal female feelings I felt like a tramp.

I am going into my second month of freedom and I feel great. This is the best, and I do not thank any deity for it. I congratulate myself for having the power to get up and walk out.

Maybe you are one of those "liberal" christians, like maybe a Unitarian or something. I know some Wiccans who sound like you, but they are usually talking about the goddess. But most of us have known christianity as an ugly, diseased sinkhole, and we are glad to be out. And if the god you believe in really wants the best for me, then he can leave me alone.

(signed)

Her Infernal Majesty

Ass-wipe777 said,

This is how God looks at us...Even through all of this, our father, God, still loves us even though He is hurt by our thoughtless actions. So when you think of that devastated father at the funeral only wanting the best for his abusive son, remember, God only wants the best for you.

How the fuck do you know how god looks at us and what god wants? Everything you think you know, about god, is a delusional, human construct, based on bullshit in the reputed Bible and bullshit doctrine. Your supposed knowledge of god is extracted from a fairy tale book of myths and superstitions, that has absolutely, zero viability and zero authority -- except for the authority you give it, that is a product of your deluded mind. Take your ignorant, delusional, superstitious, drone-ass somewhere else.

God bless me? God damn you.

--S.

"God will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death or mourning
or crying or pain." Revelation 21:4

HolyHolyHoly wrote:
There will be no more death or mourning
or crying or pain

Hey A-HOLE-Y,

Thanks for letting me know that god has changed his plan of putting us heathens in a very PAINFUL hellfire.
Now we can all live without pain and crying, and the one's who got to heaven will no longer have to MOURN their friends and family who were sent to burn in hell.

ATF (Who is pretty darn sure which troll wrote this crap)

"And whosoever was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

revelation 20:15

Bible-god, also, said:

Behold, I am going to rebuke your offspring, and I will spread dung (shit) on your faces,

Malachi 2:3

Loving god or demented, psycho-fuck god?

--S.

To ATF, JACSTAR, and BILL:

I do appreciate your replies to my previous post and I will attempt to clarify some of your questions. I think that some of your frustration stems from confusion about the faith. But first let us take a step back and review some basic philosophy. Whether you believe in God or not, there is no denying there are two basic forces in the world. Good versus evil. These two forces are constantly at battle. Christians consider this to be spiritual warfare, but for the sake of argument, let’s just call it good versus evil. Let’s think for a moment about our daily lives and the situations that we face. In these situations many of the choices we are faced with give us the opportunity to choose between right and wrong or good versus evil. No matter which choice we make, we are responsible for that decision. In being responsible for that decision, we are therefore responsible for the consequences. Unfortunately, many people choose to forget these responsibilities and want to place the blame on God rather than on either themselves or the forces of evil. Christians call this free will. This free will is one of the many ways that God does show His unconditional love for us. God could easily force us to love Him, but He doesn’t. He leaves that choice up to the free will of the individual. If God did force us to love Him, think of the resentment there would be here on earth. Think of it in human terms. There comes a point in time when a parent can no longer force their child to obey them and love them. If the parent continues to try to force their views and opinions onto the adult child, then the adult child comes to resent the parent for doing so. However, if/when the parent allows the adult child to rebel and make their own choices as well as mistakes, no matter how detrimental these choices may be or how much it hurts the parent, the adult child hopefully learns a great deal from these experiences and grows to love and appreciate the parent that much more. All the while, the parent still loves the child unconditionally. Remember, though, that while the parent is watching the child go through these experiences, the child must still unfortunately deal with the consequences of their actions, even when the parent still loves them unconditionally. That’s the beauty of the design of free will.

With all of this in mind, in response to questions posted by ATF and BILL (XRAYMAN), God does not “torment” or “fry” non-believers. These consequences are a direct result of free will. By not accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, the non-believer now falls subject to the forces of evil (Satan/Hell). God does not send his children to an “eternal roasting”. God gives us free will for us to choose to deny Him and therefore “eternally roast” or to accept him and live forever in paradise. He allows us to make that choice. Again we are responsible for the consequences of the choices that we make. God does truly love us and truly wants peace for His children. That is why the requirement for paradise is so simple, accept Christ!

In response to JACSTAR, God is not hiding from us but rather waiting for us. He is knocking on our door just waiting for us to let Him in. This is not hiding. It is as simple as opening the door and allowing Christ into your life. Again, this is not hiding. In regards to being trapped in “hell forever and ever, with no hope at all for escape”, you’re correct. Once you have left this world there are no second chances. By that time you have already made your choice through free will and must be prepared to accept the consequences, be it good or evil. However, keep in mind that the average life span of the male is approximately 75 years, and the average life span of the female is approximately 85 years. Therefore, not including childhood, most people have at least 60 years to make this decision (barring any unforeseen accidents, ect). In my mind, this creates more than ample opportunities for a ‘second chance’. Remember, if the game-plan is changed after the clock runs out, the losing team still lost.

Thanks and God Bless
Apologist777

To: apologist777

I'm going to answer you, point by point.
Your words are marked with a >

>But first let us take a step back and review some basic philosophy.

Okay, let's do that.

> Whether you believe in God or not,

In my case, it would be NOT.
(I think my nickname gave that away, huh)

>there is no denying there are two basic forces in the world. Good versus evil. These two forces are constantly at battle.

Okay, this is where we are off to a bad start.

YOU consider good and evil to be 'forces' of the universe.
You think, God is good and the Devil is evil, and there is some big war/contest going on between those two forces to be the victor, right?
You probably believe that evil is the absence of good to, but let's continue on......


>Christians consider this to be spiritual warfare, but for the sake of argument, let’s just call it good versus evil.

And why would this contest be considered "spiritual" warfare?
It would be perhaps, if we had spirits fighting a war, where one side was all evil and the other side all good, however, we are not aware of any such battle in the universe between two camps of opposing spirit beings.

Any such battle would have to be taking place here on earth, between HUMANS.
Of course, this all greatly assumes we have armies of evil and good humans, dueling things out.

> In these situations many of the choices we are faced with give us the opportunity to choose between right and wrong or good versus evil. No matter which choice we make, we are responsible for that decision. In being responsible for that decision, we are therefore responsible for the consequences.

Exactly !!
When I mess up, it is my responsibility to make things right again.
That means I can't turn to some god being to do that FOR ME, see.
I alone must face the consequences of my actions.

> Unfortunately, many people choose to forget these responsibilities and want to place the blame on God rather than on either themselves or the forces of evil.

Only someone who believes in some god being, could transfer the blame onto a god.
No atheist or agnostic would be seen doing such a thing, rest assured.

>Christians call this free will. This free will is one of the many ways that God does show His unconditional love for us.

Did you say FREE WILL?

Okay, I'm going to save this topic for my associate BOOMSLANG to answer, as he's our resident expert on the FALLACY of what you believe to be, "free will".
Good luck in winning him over...LOL


> God could easily force us to love Him, but He doesn’t. He leaves that choice up to the free will of the individual. If God did force us to love Him, think of the resentment there would be here on earth. Think of it in human terms.

Actually, your god could have easily created either robots, or made humans/angels in such a manner that we would never reject him. After all, he's all powerful and all knowing, is he not?
Perhaps god messed up, not once, but twice. First with creating rebellious angels and then later with rebellious humans, huh?

> There comes a point in time when a parent can no longer force their child to obey them and love them.

Excuse me, but since when can a person "FORCE" another person to "love them"?
No wonder you believe in a god who would send his children to hell.

> If the parent continues to try to force their views and opinions onto the adult child, then the adult child comes to resent the parent for doing so.

This is exactly what your god does to us.
God says, either do and think as I do, or you will fry in hell by my hand.
Some free will concept you have there.

> However, if/when the parent allows the adult child to rebel and make their own choices as well as mistakes, no matter how detrimental these choices may be or how much it hurts the parent, the adult child hopefully learns a great deal from these experiences and grows to love and appreciate the parent that much more. All the while, the parent still loves the child unconditionally. Remember, though, that while the parent is watching the child go through these experiences, the child must still unfortunately deal with the consequences of their actions, even when the parent still loves them unconditionally. That’s the beauty of the design of free will.

Do you not see the difference between your human example here and how your god behaves?
A parent might allow a child to learn some hard lessons and even punish that child to TEACH it a lesson, but a parent would never do as god does and punish a child for all eternity in some vindictive adventure.
Once a person is in the bible hell, there is nothing to learn, no reform accomplished and one is stuck there in great pain forever.
I mean, we aren't talking about purgatory here, where one has a chance of getting out, right.

Also, I doubt burning someone in a hellfire would ever make them see the error of their ways. It certainly would not make a person start to 'love' this god of yours!!

>With all of this in mind, in response to questions posted by ATF and BILL (XRAYMAN), God does not “torment” or “fry” non-believers. These consequences are a direct result of free will. By not accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, the non-believer now falls subject to the forces of evil (Satan/Hell). God does not send his children to an “eternal roasting”. God gives us free will for us to choose to deny Him and therefore “eternally roast” or to accept him and live forever in paradise. He allows us to make that choice. Again we are responsible for the consequences of the choices that we make. God does truly love us and truly wants peace for His children. That is why the requirement for paradise is so simple, accept Christ!

God does NOT allow us to make this choice, you are wrong here.

First it would be very cruel to force us to make such a choice, even if we had proof positive that this god actually existed.
However, your god refuses to reveal himself in such a positive manner, where he can't be easily dismissed as some fairy tale of our history
Given how he hides himself away (like a child) and he still insist that he will fry us for not believing in him and his son, how can you tell me that this is a matter of free will and choice?

If I held a gun to your head and told you to hand over all your money to me, is that really a choice. If you ask most of us here, your god is great at arm-twisting, with his 'choices'.


>In response to JACSTAR, God is not hiding from us but rather waiting for us. He is knocking on our door just waiting for us to let Him in. This is not hiding. It is as simple as opening the door and allowing Christ into your life. Again, this is not hiding.

Helloooooooooooo God????
See, he doesn't answer me.
So he must be hiding, as he's always done in the last 2000 years.

Perhaps you could speak to him and have him take a trip down to earth to let us know he's of our reality, okay?

> In regards to being trapped in “hell forever and ever, with no hope at all for escape”, you’re correct. Once you have left this world there are no second chances.

Well then, I was correct, there is no reformation with your sky daddy.
Either one accepts his existence in a totally blind manner, or one will fry forever in his custom built BBQ.
Great choice we have...NOT.

Also, you say 'once we leave this world'......as if you somehow have evidence that we leave this world after we die.
Care to show me ANY evidence you have that we have some part of us that survives the death of our body?
I have yet to see ANY evidence that would indicate we have a spirit side to our physical selves.
Best as I can tell, that is nothing but an answer to a great human fear and a whole lot of wishful thinking, which btw is not unique to your xtian ideas.

> By that time you have already made your choice through free will and must be prepared to accept the consequences, be it good or evil.

Oh trust me, I have PLENTY to say to your lame god, should we ever meet up.

> However, keep in mind that the average life span of the male is approximately 75 years, and the average life span of the female is approximately 85 years. Therefore, not including childhood, most people have at least 60 years to make this decision (barring any unforeseen accidents, ect). In my mind, this creates more than ample opportunities for a ‘second chance’. Remember, if the game-plan is changed after the clock runs out, the losing team still lost.

Isn't is odd how god let humans live to be something like 900 years old way-back-when, which would have given them far longer than we have today, to make this critical belief choice about your god.
Doesn't it seem just a tad bit unfair that our ancestors got so long to think things over and we get only a fraction of what they did?

I'd also like to know where you think all the humans who lived before jesus, are now?
Did they all just die and will stay that way, or did they all go to hell because they never heard of this jesus character?

If they all just died and will stay dead, then isn't that a bit unfair to all of us who happened (by sheer chance) to be born after jesus paid us a visit?
If they have to go to hell, then obviously that is unfair to them, as they didn't live during a post-jesus time, and didn't have the opportunity to decide on this jesus being real or not.

Speaking of your jesus character.
You wouldn't happen to have any credible evidence that he actually walked this planet and did all kinds of great miracles, then died on a Roman cross and after taking a '3' day nap, woke himself up and flew back to heaven, would you?

If you do, then congratulations, because you'll be the very FIRST xtian to offer us such evidence. Up till now, the only so called proof we get are the stories of your bible and some hearsay evidence, or a couple lines about jesus that were deviously inserted by xtians into Jewish historian records.

It should greatly bother your reasoning mind, that the existence of your jesus has almost zero evidence outside the legend of your bible story.
Of course, I'm sure you'll tell me the same thing we've heard time and time again, that you can FEEL jesus in your heart, so he must be real.

You'll most likely cite a few instances in your life where you were sure jesus had a hand in doing something for you. Then you'll tell us a few stories that you heard in the rumor mill, about some great things he's done for other xtians.

However, what you will never tell me, is how your god/jesus re-grew some blown off limbs from xtian soldiers who fought in Iraq or other battles.
You will make all kinds of excuses for why young children suffer in great pain and then die anyway, as you think god has some greater purpose for those children in some fictional heaven.
When a child happens to recover from cancer, just from chance alone, you will quickly cite your god has having performed some miracle, yet you ignore the many he allows to die at the same time.

You pretend that god is in control of this earth, when everything we see around us shows that all events happen by chance alone.
The weather does what it does, in spite of your belief in some god.
We have earthquakes and other natural disasters, that take the lives of every faith, xtian and non-xtian alike.

There is no advantage one can see in statistics, that xtians have over non-xtians.
Xtians get sick just as often and even the great xtian leaders suffer with disease in the same way as the rest of us do.

So where is this god or yours exactly, because he's not visible, not testable (not believable) and any actions he might be doing for his creations, are sorely hidden away from public view.

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF THIS GOD?????


ATF (Who see's the same old excuses here, as we've heard a million times before)

Apologist777: "I would like to take this opportunity to explain to you from a Christian perspective..."

(taps title bar at top of web browser) Excuse me, young man... What part of "Ex-Christian" did you not comprehend?

"But first let us take a step back and review some basic philosophy..."

Oh, this just gets better and better.

"...Whether you believe in God or not, there is no denying there are two basic forces in the world. Good versus evil."

Well, I'm denying it. "Good" and "evil" are not forces -- They are sentient beings' perceptions of the outcomes of various events and actions. They have no power in themselves, because they are subjective descriptions of the effects rather than the motive power behind the causes.

777, Methinks thou art stuck in the same old dualistic rut that's plagued humanity since at least the time of the Zend-Avesta.

(Oh, and got any evidence for the existence of that god of yours?)

A777 said, God gives us free will for us to choose to deny Him and therefore “eternally roast” or to accept him and live forever in paradise.

Listen here, you delusional, screw-hole, that's not a choice that's an ULTIMATUM. Like if I was the leader of an organization, similar to the boy scouts, and your two sons decided they wanted to check it out, so I had them sit in front of me, while I give them the "choice" of joining my little club, by telling them you can play any video games or watch any movies, you want, eat pizza and ice cream and I'll give you free money -- a child's paradise -- or if you don't "choose" me, then I'm going to take a blowtorch to your body and while keeping you just barely alive, in a pit, I'll burn you for the rest of your life. You got "free will" kids; make your "choice" and oh, by the way, I love you, unconditionally.
Controlling by fear is vile, and making a person "choose" someone, with it, is an ULTIMATUM.

Ultimatum -- A statement, especially in diplomatic negotiations, that expresses or implies the threat of serious penalties if the terms are not accepted.

And another thing, Cuckoo777, your god is doing a mega-shitty, job at getting his all-important, message across.

If god, so loved his earthly children, then why would he relay his, all so important messages and the Good News, in a book, using difficult or vague texts, parables, poems, songs, dream imagery, switching from literal to non-literal, that could so easily be misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted, so many different ways?

If it was so important for God to save his earthly children, from the eternal flames of hell, then why did he put his message into a book that couldn't possibly get to the masses?

If the Bible is so important, how come only 30% of the worlds population is Christian, while the other 70% of the worlds population is another, non-biblical, religion or the non-religious? And out of the 30% of Bible-believing, Christians, there are thousands of separate sects and denominations that have varying and vast ideas about the Bible and how one is supposedly saved?

If your all-loving, god is using the Bible to get his, all important, message across and truly wanted to save us, you would think, an all-knowing, all-powerful god, could do a better job at delivering the crucial laws, commandments and messages to everyone, equally and clearly, but most certainly this is not the case -- why is that?

God's plan is seriously flawed and I would have to conclude the Bible and Christianity is a human construct, susceptible to fallibility and in your case gullibility, and there, really, is nothing gained from it, except an illusion of authority and the illusion of eternal life.

I await your thorough and twisted excuses... I mean, answers.

--S.

If a God is Universally Omnipresent, then God reigns Universally, to include Hell.

If a God is Universally Omni benevolent, then Hell doesn't exist. Christians claim Hell exists, therefore, their God can not be Omni benevolent.

If a Christian claims their God is Omnipresent; and reigning CEO of the Universe, including the cosmological ghetto - Hell, then they are logically dystheists.

Dystheism - "Dystheism is the belief that God does exist but is not wholly good, or that he might even be evil."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

Christians just happen to be in “biblical denial”, “ignorance”, or… are secular/cultural and not engaged in the doctrine of their religion – which in my book doesn’t make them Christian, it makes them a member of a group of people who meet in a building under the auspices of Christianity.

Christians, who promote a God concept as Omnipotent, Omniscient or Omni benevolent as worthy of their worship, regardless of evil acts in the bible, modern day atrocities every day, and the deliberate creation of Hell - is a Dystheist.

Ironically, most Christians will deny they worship a malevolent God, or a God concept who has continually engaged in evil acts in the bible. The only way they can create this self-deniability, is to cherry-pick the verses of the bible that "form" the God of their "desire", and ignore those parts that evidence their God's immoral actions - per the Ten Commandments.

For example; Thou shalt not Kill... Yet, God kills millions in the bible, because of jealousy, hatred, etc. to include his own son (if God is Omnipotent), Thou shalt not lie, but in the bible God does on numerous occasions. Thou shalt not steal, yet, God steals a virgin girl for his concubine, and suggests this is a "blessing" to the virgin girl - Holy Rape... Thou Shalt keep the Sabbath day Holy, yet... Jesus deliberately disobeys the Sabbath and on and on.

While Christians don't "claim" they worship an "evil" God, their Bible is proof to the contrary, and others have no problem pointing out their dissent.

"Satanism, as represented by the Church of Satan (founded by Anton Szandor LaVey) does not, as commonly presumed, advocate worship of Satan as a literal existing entity, but rather advocated rebellion against an all too real manifested god.

As LaVey wrote about God:
“ [The belief that] 'God takes care of drunks and fools' is inaccurate. In truth, he doesn't even notice them. That's why nothing bad happens to them. I proceed on the assumption that God is an asshole, and only notices those who don't deserve his dubious 'attention': the sensitive, the just, the capable, the talented, the gifted. They are the butterflies whom God pulls the wings off of. You must be something special to be cursed by God."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

What I find... interesting... is that a Satanist, is "moved" to their position, like an "atheist"... because of the "demand" by Christians that "Christianity" is the One True Religion with a One True God, and therefore, "everyone" must give an account of their position.

In general, atheists lack belief in a god or gods, but for a myriad of different reasons...

However, Satanists, choose to respond, not like atheists who either reject or “lack reception” of the Christian proposition of a God/gods, but by accepting the Christian "proposition" as demanded by Christians, and then calling the Christian God of the bible, exactly as the God of the bible "acts" - per Anton, like an asshole.

Dave8: "However, Satanists choose to respond... by accepting the Christian 'proposition' as demanded by Christians, and then calling the Christian God of the bible, exactly as the God of the bible 'acts'..."

In other words: Laveyan Satanism is the health warning printed on the side of the cigarette box of Christianity. :D

Hi Apologist777,

You said; "In these situations many of the choices we are faced with give us the opportunity to choose between right and wrong or good versus evil. No matter which choice we make, we are responsible for that decision."

I completely agree with you. So when I looked at the history of my religion - which was Christianity - as well as all the other religions of the world, today as well as historically, I made the choice for good over evil. Which means I made the choice to get as far away as possible from the evil of your religion.

I choose good over evil every day. But the point you are missing is that your hell is not reserved for people that choose evil over good, it is reserved for those that don't believe the correct doctrine. It is for those that reject a bunch of ancient fairy tales because of the lack of evidence, or other similar reasons.

And as for faith in Christ goes, I have perfect faith that if he exists, he is not as much as an asshole as Christianity and you say he is.

You say you choose good over evil, but you ignore the evil in the actions of the god of the bible. How do know that if you actually do survive your own death and get to meet God, that he/she won't say something like "Why did you believe that crap in the bible? Couldn't you see for yourself how bad it made me look? I gave you a brain, why didn't you use it?" To which you would reply "Well I believed because the book said you would fry me if I didn't."

And that about sums up the only reason to be a Christian: The fear that your god really is an asshole, and will send you to eternal torment if you don't believe the stupid book.

Without hell, your god becomes good, and your religion falls to pieces. You don't have a good god, you have a religion that tries to explain why your god can be an asshole if he wants to be.

You have nothing for us.

Peace.

-Lance

A bit lonely-

My sister did the same with her copy of "Dookie", for the same reason! Hilarious! We both look back now and laugh. We're still both Green Day fans- just no guilt now, haha.

ATF:"Did you say FREE WILL?

Okay, I'm going to save this topic for my associate BOOMSLANG to answer..."

I can't wait ATF. I've just got to say something about the misrepresentation of the biblegods treatment of free will.

@apologist777(With apologies to Boom')

777:"This free will is one of the many ways that God does show His unconditional love for us."

Noooo. The biblegod doesn't seem too concerned about taking away human free will when it suites his desires. Look at how the biblegod hardened the pharaohs heart and made the guy go against what the biblegod supposedly wanted.

777:"God could easily force us to love Him, but He doesn’t."

However you're overlooking other obvious questions here. Those being: Does god force us to hate him? Does he force us to NOT believe he exists? Does he force us to go against his desires as he did to the pharaoh?

777:"He leaves that choice up to the free will of the individual."

In the Exodus story it appears that god made the pharaoh change his mind about relenting and doing what god supposedly wanted, several times. So by hardening the pharaohs heart and making him return to opposition to gods will, was the pharaoh doing what god wanted him to do? If not, why did god take away his choice to relent?

777:"the adult child hopefully learns a great deal from these experiences and grows to love and appreciate the parent that much more."

Your parent/child analogy falls apart with the description of gods actions in exodus. It seems that the rebellious "child" was forced to continue in his rebellion by the "parent", without any mention of the "child's" free will being important to the "parent" at all.

"If God did force us to love Him, think of the resentment there would be here on earth."

Think of the resentment he creates when he forces us to disobey his will.(let alone the confusion) Think of the resentment the pharaoh felt(assumeing he understood what god did to him) after being forced by god to change his mind, and then had to deal with the consequences of what god made him do.(i.e. the death of his child)

Sorry, the bible doesn't support your claim that god gives humans a choice untill they die. The bible doesn't support your claim that god loves us as a parent loves a child. The bible doesn't support your implication that god doesn't want to creat resentment.

"That’s the beauty of the design of free will."

Your beliefs seem to be heretical.

Welcome, fellow unbeliever.



Oh, and just so you know. Boomslang is fixin' to stomp your silly notions of biblical free will into bunny cud.

Get 'em Boom'!

Hi Astreja, yep, Laveyan Satanism, is the health warning label of Christianity, and Christians do everything in their power to hide the warning, so no one can really understand the contents of the box :-)

I was at a church a month or so ago, at a funeral, and had a Christian start using the bible (and the funeral) as a tool for control... I started asking direct questions, about biblical passages, and when they were not able to address the obvious problems in front of them, they said, "Satan knows the bible better than anyone".

So, the Christian Bible... and a person's understanding, either makes them a True Christian (ignorant) or a demon (knowledgeable). In short, if we can read the warning label, then we are doomed to reject, or lack reception of the Holy Smoker (Ghost). If we are pressed to acknowledge the Holy Smoker's existence based on the words on the cigarette box, then we may just reply, "the cigarette manufacturer an asshole" :-)

777A...I think that some of your frustration stems from confusion about the faith.

Dear 777A,

Personally, I think you are the one who is a bit confused. Let me put it this way---when Christians, themselves, show some unity in the interpretation of the christian doctrine, then that is the day that you can come back and minister to us about "the faith". Until that day, what you have is an opinion.

777A...But first let us take a step back and review some basic philosophy.

Let's....

777A...Whether you believe in God or not, there is no denying there are two basic forces in the world. Good versus evil.

Well, FYI, I, and many more, flat-out deny this "basic philosophy" of yours.

Yes, there exists the "force" of nature, which, said force yields "good"(desirable) and "evil"(undesirable) results. Other than that, there are only the actions of humankind which determine "good" or "evil" results. In fact, "good" and "evil" are human constructs, and thus, are limited to human affairs. To illustrate what I mean, if a lion cub plays with(tortures) a rat before eating it, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that that cub is being "evil". Or, if the wind blows a coconut tree, and subsequently, a coconut falls and konks a monkey on the head, I highly doubt any rationally thinking person would label said tree "evil". Of course, I don't want to speak for you, so feel free to elaborate.

777A...These two forces are constantly at battle.

No, I don't believe so, for reasons I just explained.

777A...Christians consider this to be spiritual warfare, but for the sake of argument, let’s just call it good versus evil.

...in other words, for the sake of argument, let's assume the Christian worldview true. Okay, let's do precisely that...

777A...Let’s think for a moment about our daily lives and the situations that we face. In these situations many of the choices we are faced with give us the opportunity to choose between right and wrong or good versus evil.

Here are a couple of things for you to reevaluate, again, under the pretense that the Christian worldview is true:

1) If biblegod is "omniscient"(knows the future set of events, including our "choices"), then we only have the illusion of "free will", at best.

2) If we are all "sinners" by birth, and if "sin" is "evil", then we don't have the "free will" to resist "evil".

There. Those are just two contradictions to deal with. Feel free to challenge either one, or both, of those points.

777A...No matter which choice we make, we are responsible for that decision. In being responsible for that decision, we are therefore responsible for the consequences.

Precisely! However, as I just pointed out in points 1 & 2, above, this philosophy does not/cannot apply, if the Christian worldview is true; it can only apply in a naturalistic universe.

To review, briefly, if "sin" is unavoidable(as doctrine plainly states it is), then we cannot/should not be held responsible for what we have no control over. That's like tossing a goldfish into a tank of water, and holding it responsible for getting "wet". Do you see the philosophical problem with your "basic philosophy", now?

777A...Unfortunately, many people choose to forget these responsibilities and want to place the blame on God rather than on either themselves or the forces of evil.

::looks around::

Well, I must tell you that the only people I see deflecting responsibility and laying blame on external "forces", ironically, are Christians.

777A...Christians call this free will.

Secular humanists call this bullsh*t. Repeat: If the Christian worldview is true, then our "free will" has limits, thus, it is not entirely "free". 'Follow?

777A...This free will is one of the many ways that God does show His unconditional love for us. God could easily force us to love Him, but He doesn’t. He leaves that choice up to the free will of the individual.

I'm sorry, but I could not disagree more, as you've been warned by others I would.

Tell me with a straight face--- are you suggesting to me that a presumably limitless being can only muster-up two choices?...i.e..1) Forcing us to reciprocate its alleged "love" for us, or 2) Giving us a "choice" between reciprocating its "love", or eternally roasting us in a "lake of fire"? If you want to exploit your own gulibility, fine...but please don't insult my intelligence in the process.

Let me ask you---is there a good, sound, logical reason that an omnipotent "God" couldn't simply offer its "love", without threats or punishment for waiving said offer? I mean, is the "Creator of the Universe" really so insecure that it would need to coerse people into accepting it/loving it?

777A...There comes a point in time when a parent can no longer force their child to[EDIT!]

(edited for economy of space, and to spare others from having to reread such annoyingly weak arguments)

Like clock-work, we see the "parent/child" apologetic, and for serveral reasons, it fails miserably each and every time. Here are just two of the stronger arguments against said ridiculous analogy:

1) No one is debating the existence of "parents".

2) No matter how rebellious a child becomes, I've yet to hear about a single case of a parent or guardian tracking a child down, and setting him or her ablaze, while still claiming to "love" said child.

777A...That’s the beauty of the design of free will.

That's the beauty of logic---there cannot exist "free will" where predestination by "omniscience" is concerned, and there cannot exist "love" where conditions are concerned. Stick it in your memory-bank and hit "save".

777A.....God does not “torment” or “fry” non-believers. These consequences are a direct result of free will. By not accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, the non-believer now falls subject to the forces of evil (Satan/Hell). God does not send his children to an “eternal roasting”. God gives us free will for us to choose to deny Him and therefore “eternally roast” or to accept him and live forever in paradise.

Good grief, do you not hear yourself as you type this stuff? Let's recap, hopefully for your benefit:

- "Sin", according to Xian doctrine, is unavoidable, and thus, we do NOT have the free will" to avoid "sinning". Please note, being "forgiven" for "sin" is irrelevant, because it doesn't eliminate the alleged predispostion to "sin". Not to mention, it's pretty absurd to ask to be "forgiven" for something you have no control over.

- One minute you say we have "free will", and "evil" is our "choice". Out of the other side of your mouth, you now say that this "evil" is a "force", and we are "subject" to this force. Are we responsible for "evil"?..or is "evil" responsible for our actions? Make up your mind.

- If sending his "children" to hell is something that "God" ultimately does not want to do, then he can simply not do it. To say that he "must" do so, limits the supposed "free will" of "God". To say that he "wants" to do so, makes him a barbaric, pugnacious, tyrant, and certainly not any type of being that I would want to spend eternity with, let alone worship.

777A...He allows us to make that choice. Again we are responsible for the consequences of the choices that we make. God does truly love us and truly wants peace for His children. That is why the requirement for paradise is so simple, accept Christ!

Here's a hypothetical senario I'd like you to consider, and I liken it to the senario you just described, above:

I'm going to smash both of your knee caps with a ball-peen hammer. I'm then going to offer you a ride to the hospital. If you accept the ride, then I'll be your friend, eternally. If you don't accept the ride, I'll then procede to use the hammer on your groin area, elbows, and feet. See?..the requirement to be my friend is so simple!...just accept me as your friend!!!!

(If you have objections, please feel free to tell me, specifically, how said hypothetical senario misses the point)

777A...In response to JACSTAR, God is not hiding from us but rather waiting for us.

Really? Where is "He" waiting right this second, and every second? He's "omnipresent", correct? So, by definition, "God" is everywhere, and anywhere....oh, that is, accept in our line of vision.

Why is it that the invisible and the non-existant look so much alike? Hmmm....

777A...... keep in mind that the average life span of the male is approximately 75 years, and the average life span of the female is approximately 85 years. Therefore, not including childhood, most people have at least 60 years to make this decision...

This is interesting(in an outlandishly absurd kind of way) So, once and for all, what is the "cut-off" age? 8?..9?..10 yrs and 9 months?..what is it, and please provide a source. Thanks.

...(barring any unforeseen accidents, ect).

There ARE no "accidents"; only "God's will", right?

777A, your posts are riddled with logical fallacies, contradictions, inconsistencies, and special pleading. Feel free to counter any or all of my points(preferably with good, sound reasoning)

Have a blessed, yet, predetermined day!

I was waiting for Boom's reponse to A777. It was worth waiting for. I would like to ask A777 a question relating to Boom's last point (if this thread hasn't died -it usually has by the time I get there.)
A777, you say 70-80 years is plenty of time to come to a decision; what about chilren. Are you a Phelpsian kind of monster who has it that children who die go straight to hell, or are you one of those 'kinder' Xtians who has it that there is an age of accountability. If the latter, what is that age? 12? 13? What about the children who die when they're 13.5? Have they had enough time? Considering that hell is apparently for ever why doesn't god give us a million years, or a trillion - it makes no difference when compared to infinity.
For myself, even if god only put one person in his hell, even if that person was a monster, it would make him a barbarian.

Hello Apologist777 ??

Now I and others have answered your comments and for some very strange reason, you vanished from sight.
Perhaps your blessed jesus saw your post and came to take you away to heaven (or hell)?

As I forewarned you, your free will 'argument' was ground into stardust.

Now the question is, do you dare show your face here to reply to us or shall we forever listen to those typical crickets we hear when xtians find their "tails between their legs" after prancing into our EX-Christian site.

A777?
A777?
A777?

Are you out there, mister self-assured xtian apologist?


ATF (Who thinks a cricket must be the god-appointed spokesperson, for xtians like A777)

I would suggest to anyone who rejects the church doctrines on eternal hellfire etc; to google
J. Preston Eby and check out the doctrine of universal reconciliation, which really does make a lot more sense. Check it out!

voiceoone wrote:
I would suggest to anyone who rejects the church doctrines on eternal hellfire etc; to google
J. Preston Eby and check out the doctrine of universal reconciliation, which really does make a lot more sense
----
Voice,

As you requested, I found this article on hell by Eby.....
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/hell.html

Now I admit, I did not have the time to read through this very LENGTHY (boring) article, but I did scan through it.

This is simply another view of what someone THINKS the bible is saying on the matter of hell/redemption, but can never be proved beyond a doubt.

The J/W cult solves the problem of hell by saying that god will simply kill all us heathens off and not fry us for all eternity, so perhaps they are correct?

Some rejected writings that didn't make the hit-parade of the bible review board, clearly show that there is a possibility that those damned to hell, have a chance to escape it.
This view was suppressed because the church felt it would cause humans to sin without worry of eternal damnation. So to CONTROL the population, it was kept secret from most.

What you fail, VOICE, to recognize here, is that none of us believe in your xtian god or it's hell, of ANY kind or type.
So if you think you can butter us up by making the threat of hellfire less dramatic, then you're wasting your time and ours......but thanks anyway.


ATF (Who could make the bible say anything he wanted it to, just as anyone can, and DOES DO)

AtheistToothFairy quotes with >

>This is simply another view of what someone THINKS the bible is saying on the matter of hell/redemption

Of course it is, just as what you think about it is your view. Many here talk about how they can't accept a God who would let people burn in hell forever, so I am presenting another biblical view that can be argued is also scriptural even though it is not widely accepted by the churches. Some explanation is given to misinterpretation of specific key words which can be helpful.

>What you fail, VOICE, to recognize here, is that none of us believe in your xtian god or it's hell, of ANY kind or type.

Thank you for being somewhat diplomatic but you are making some assumptions here. First you are assuming you speak for everyone reading or posting here which I find hard to believe, as gullible as you assume me to be.

Next, you are assuming I believe just like all the other Christians you have known. While there are probably some similarities, I have pretty much rejected a lot of church doctrine and methods of witnessing.

>So if you think you can butter us up by making the threat of hellfire less dramatic, then you're wasting your time and ours......but thanks anyway.

Another assumption you make is that I'm just trying to package belief into something easier for you to swallow. Well, I happen to actually believe in universal reconciliation and I do reject the eternal hellfire doctrine. I'm not trying to trick anybody into anything, just offering an alternative for your consideration that doesn't get much air time in Christian circles.

A Bit Lonely:

Congratulations on breaking free! Christianity can be so imprisoning, and tends to make people judgmental. I hope you enjoy your new freedom.

voiceoone:

I must say that doctrines that hold to either annihilationism or universal reconciliation are less disgusting than eternal damnation. However, most Christians hold to the concept of an eternal hell or lake of fire scenario, and, despite Mr. Eby's assertions, the Bible seems to support such notions.

I read a couple of the articles by Mr. Eby. He seems to make claims unsupported by the biblical texts, and tends to use variant meanings of words over the normal meanings.

Regardless, the reason why I don't believe in Christianity and the Bible anymore is that they just aren't true.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

To: voiceoone
ATF original text indicated by >>
Voiceoone replies indicated by >

>>This is simply another view of what someone THINKS the bible is saying on the matter of hell/redemption

>Of course it is, just as what you think about it is your view. Many here talk about how they can't accept a God who would let people burn in hell forever, so I am presenting another biblical view that can be argued is also scriptural even though it is not widely accepted by the churches. Some explanation is given to misinterpretation of specific key words which can be helpful.

I will admit that the article was quite extensive, even citing the Greek/Hebrew to make it's case.

However, I'm sure many xtian theologians would find flaws in this article.
As I already said, the JW sect attempts to make a good case against a biblical hell for the unbelievers, by citing the Greek/Hebrew origin of certain key words, yet mainstream Christianity continues to ignore their arguments.


>>What you fail, VOICE, to recognize here, is that none of us believe in your xtian god or it's hell, of ANY kind or type.

>Thank you for being somewhat diplomatic but you are making some assumptions here. First you are assuming you speak for everyone reading or posting here which I find hard to believe, as gullible as you assume me to be.

Actually, I think it's fairly safe to assert that an overwhelming majority of the 'members' here would vote that there is no bible god and no hell of any kind; or heaven for that matter.

[Anyone for taking a vote out there?]

That would leave only the visiting readers that might object to my statement of us not believing in your xtian god/hell.
Given this is a EX-xtian blog, I see no reason for my post to take into account those readers who still have faith in this xtian bible god.

I may be mistaken here, but I would assume the Webmaster Dave didn't create this blog for us ex-xtians to bend over backwards in an effort to accommodate the feelings of xtian readers, who happen to chance in here and read our ex-xtian posts.


>Next, you are assuming I believe just like all the other Christians you have known. While there are probably some similarities, I have pretty much rejected a lot of church doctrine and methods of witnessing.

Yes, I admit that I'm assuming you are a CHRISTIAN.
A xtian, who chose to post an alternative CHRISTIAN hell dogma to a website, who's owner [and members] have concluded that no form of hell or bible god, exists.

>>So if you think you can butter us up by making the threat of hellfire less dramatic, then you're wasting your time and ours......but thanks anyway.

>Another assumption you make is that I'm just trying to package belief into something easier for you to swallow. Well, I happen to actually believe in universal reconciliation and I do reject the eternal hellfire doctrine. I'm not trying to trick anybody into anything, just offering an alternative for your consideration that doesn't get much air time in Christian circles.

While I once would have admired your efforts to rid the Christian dogma of a hellfire concept, (which would have made this bible god a bit more likeable), it really doesn't matter anymore which type of eternal punishment you assume your bible god will dole out to us.
If one has concluded that your xtian god is a myth, then any form of eternal punishment from that god, is also a myth, by default.

While you state that your intent wasn't to make your god easier to swallow for us, I have to ask myself what OTHER purpose would you have for bringing this alternative hell plan to everyone's attention?
It sure would APPEAR to most members here that your intent was to coax some of us back to your bible god, by making the eternal punishment a bit more pleasing.

I would also say that you were hoping to catch the attention of some readers who are still indecisive about whether this bible god actually exists or not, hoping if you could convince them there is no hell fire awaiting their family and friends, that they would return to the 'loving' arms of your bible god.

If what I said is incorrect, then PLEASE, tell us what your purpose was in posting on a ex-xtian website, hmmm?


ATF (Who also wants to see any GOOD evidence you might have for this bible god/jesus to)

>If what I said is incorrect, then PLEASE, tell us what your purpose was in posting on a ex-xtian website, hmmm?

I was directed to this site by a good friend who is genuinely concerned about some of the people here. Of course I would hope to have some influence and make some convincing arguments, but my intention is not to force my opinion or to trick anyone by untruths etc. If I state something or direct to someone's writing, it is because I am convinced of it's merit and value. I do not wish to be confrontational or just to win the argument etc, but to discuss and debate as people in search of truth and understanding of the human condition. I'm assuming that although this is an exchristian site that it is still open to anyone as long as they are civil. (I admit I never read the rules or conditions etc so maybe I'm wrong about that)Anyway, I'm not sure I'll stick around, I'm just checking things out. This is the first time I've visited this site.The original post in this thread kind of interested me so I felt compelled to post something as the Christians that post basically just follow traditional doctrine.

>If one has concluded that your xtian god is a myth, then any form of eternal punishment from that god, is also a myth, by default.

But this view can be just as dogmatic as any belief system, because that's exactly what it is, a belief. It takes as much faith to believe there is no God as it does to believe in God because neither can be conclusively proven or demonstrated. Of course, I would argue that it takes more faith to believe there is no God.

>It sure would APPEAR to most members here that your intent was to coax some of us back to your bible god, by making the eternal punishment a bit more pleasing.

If I really believed in eternal hellfire, I would most definitely tell you that straight up! I don't believe that and since that seems to be a main complaint of people here I thought I would attempt a response.

Atheisttoothfairy,
Don’t worry, I didn’t go anywhere… it hasn’t even been 24 hours since my last post. I don’t go ‘running with my tail between my legs’ as you might hope. I'm always in the mood for a good debate.
To everyone else, just some things to keep in mind though before I get back to debating with my next post. If you use your ‘logic’ to come to a conclusion, that’s great. Everyone should use the mind that God gave them. My suggestion to you is to make sure that your logic is not obstructed by your pre-conceived thoughts about the subject matter. Otherwise, your deductive reasoning will bring you to a false conclusion. It’s the old grade-school story problem…all cows eat grass, all grass is green, and therefore all cows are green. Make sure you follow the logic.
Next, the majority of the responses I’ve gotten continue to state that God will send you to hell if you don’t love Him ect. That is not what my original post stated. My original post stated that if someone ends up in hell, it is a direct result from a choice that the individual person made.
Also, when debating, be consistent in your argument. What I mean by this is some of you state in one sentence that the BIBLE is a ‘fairytale’. Then turn around and state that the God of the BIBLE is evil because he killed millions of people. Either the BIBLE is a ‘fairytale’ or it is an accurate history book, you decide. But your ‘logic’ won't be correct if you discredit the BIBLE as a ‘fairytale’ then use it to try to discredit me. By attempting to do so, your ‘logic’ loses all credibility.
Lastly, several of you stated that you wanted proof of all this. That’s fine, I'm more than happy to oblige. Before I do though, which way do you want this debate to go? Do you want proof from the BIBLE, or would you prefer proof from a more ‘earthly, scientific’ arena? (Keep in mind that until now, I never even mentioned the BIBLE.)

Thanks and God Bless
Apologist777

Ps,
Don’t worry boomslang, I didn’t forget you.

Voiceoone: "First you [ATF] are assuming you speak for everyone reading or posting here which I find hard to believe, as gullible as you assume me to be."

For all intents and purposes, ATF does in fact speak for Me. I think that the god of the Bible is infinitely unlikely, and that 'Heaven' and 'Hell' are just as improbable.

Please keep in mind that this site supports Ex-Christians. Some of the 'regulars' are strong atheists, but we also have agnostics, Buddhists, pagans, apatheists, Deists, secular humanists, and various other combinations of knowing, not knowing, believing and not believing.

We do have one major thing in common, however: We no longer consider ourselves Christian, and we reject the Bible and its mythology.

As for our other guest...

Apologist777: "My suggestion to you is to make sure that your logic is not obstructed by your pre-conceived thoughts about the subject matter."

Can you do likewise, A777? Can you put aside your beliefs?

"Before I do though, which way do you want this debate to go? Do you want proof from the BIBLE, or would you prefer proof from a more ‘earthly, scientific’ arena?"

On this site, A777, ONLY scientific data will be accepted as evidence. The Bible is not considered to be anything more than mythology here, so don't even bother. Personal experiences of supposedly "spiritual" matters don't count for squat here either, because we have no way of assessing someone else's subjective experiences.

Your scientific authorities must also be peer-reviewed so that the experiments can be verified, and the evidence must have been obtained in properly controlled studies in accordance with the Scientific Method, preferably in the scientists' own areas of expertise.

In other words, don't hand us any apocryphal stories of an oceanographer who looked through a telescope and went "Ooh! Ahh!", then shrugged and said 'Goddidit'. If someone purports to be an expert in physical cosmology, we want to see a M.Sc. or Ph.D. in Physics at a bare minimum, and a solid grounding in Astronomy as well. Likewise, if we start talking about evolution, a Master's in Biochemistry or Genetics is the opening bid.

To Apologist777,
I was hoping that you could respond to BOE's post re: Age of accountability......
If a baby dies, where does it go? It obviously hasn't excepted Jesus as it's personal lord and saviour, so does it got to hell?
Also, what about people born in tribes around the world who have never ever heard of jesus. Where do they go?
And I think someone also asked about people in the old testament, before jesus came. They didnt have jesus as their personal lord and saviour either, so do they also go to hell too?

Awaiting your Answer,
jacstar

Apologist777: "My suggestion to you is to make sure that your logic is not obstructed by your pre-conceived thoughts about the subject matter."

Hehehehehe, I almost broke into tears laughing at this one...

A777, if you are a Christian then you believe in a Universal God concept, which is "infinite" in knowledge... so... you must admit that your "finite" mind/knowledge, started and continues to process "pre-conceived" notions, about the Universal "subject matter" of a God.

Want to hear some irony; those who don't speak on behalf of a Universal God, are logically, "less" prone to make "pre-conceived" declarations.

The only logical manner a person can speak on behalf of a Universal God, without making "pre-conceived" statements... is if the person speaking is actually taking the logical position as "God".

A777, if you are God, just let us know, so we can put to rest any further pre-conceived notions you may have regarding your Universal God statements, or pre-conceived notions about those on this site, for that matter ;-)

ATF..."If one has concluded that your xtian god is a myth, then any form of eternal punishment from that god, is also a myth, by default."

voiceoone responds: But this view can be just as dogmatic as any belief system, because that's exactly what it is, a belief.

While one may conclude that the foundations of religious belief, in this case, the christian doctrine, are based on "myth", and/or legend, such an affirmative claim is not dogmatic in the sense that if evidence were put forth that substantiated said doctrine beyond a "faith", that one would hold steadfast to dismissing it as myth. In other words, non-belief is, by default, a position of neutrality, that is, until the affirmative claim has supporting evidence. 'Got any?

voiceoone: It takes as much faith to believe there is no God as it does to believe in God because neither can be conclusively proven or demonstrated.

Forgive me, but that is not only a logical fallacy, but it is utter bullsh*t. And frankly, I've grown tired and weary of hearing said apologetic, which is probably why I responded the way I did.

But let's look at this "philosophy" of yours....

If you are a Christian, then obviously, you don't believe in "Allah"; or "Thor"; or "Neptune"; or "Mithra"; or "Amon Ra".

Safely assuming you confirm your NON-belief in those deities, I then ask: How much "faith" does it require of you to waive belief in those "gods"??? How much "extra" devotion, contemplation, thought, reasoning, etc., do you put into the notion of the aforementioned gods' non-existence? If you are like me - that is, intellectually honest - then you will concede that it requires ZERO "faith" to lack belief in the existence of the aforementioned gods. Well guess what?.....the same applies to my lack of belief in "Yahweh".

voiceoone...Of course, I would argue that it takes more faith to believe there is no God.

Oh, heavens yes, I'm sure you would argue that, as we are accustomed to theists bludgeoning us to death with logical fallacies, and setting up double-standards when it suits their own agenda(s).

voiceoone,

Your arguments are typical and weak. And while they may give the already-convinced a semi-erection, you'll have to do much better if you want to convince the UN-convinced. Do your homework before you come back, okay? Cool. Thanks.

A777...Ps,
Don’t worry boomslang, I didn’t forget you.

If your counter-arguments are anything like what I observed in your most recent post, I would ask that you would "forget" me.

For the time being, I'll tackle just one of your rebuttals:

You said...Also, when debating, be consistent in your argument. What I mean by this is some of you state in one sentence that the BIBLE is a ‘fairytale’. Then turn around and state that the God of the BIBLE is evil because he killed millions of people

Thank you for the advice. Evidently, you are a novice in this arena---the world of theism vs non-theism.

Listen closely: If an exchristian references the bible, it is under the pretense that the bible is true. In other words, if someone points out the murderous, pugnacious nature of the Christian biblegod, it is implicit that they don't believe that any such being can exist, and be "God"..i.e..the supposed "All-loving Creator of the Universe".

To illustrate more simply for you, if I question why biblegod couldn't find Adam and Eve in the garden after they "sinned", it doesn't mean I believe in said "God", but he just happens to suck at 'hide-n-seek'; it simply means that the idea of two imbeciles "hiding" from the "Creator of the Universe", who, BTW, is purported to be both "omniscient" and "omnipresent", is completely and utterly ridiculous. Such a suggestion is not plausible enough for belief.

'Got it now?