Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net


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Sent in by Johnny

I was sitting with my pastor at the seminary I was attending for development in Christianity program, and we were talking about one of the finer points in Calvinistic dogma, that being predestination. This was the moment, after 20 years of Christian living, that would instill the mustard seed of doubt into my mind, which would eventually lead to my leaving of Church, of the faith, and eventually any notion of God.

I was raised in a Christian home, by Christian parents. I was taught all of the same teachings that every Christian has heard thousands upon thousands of times. I was pulled out of secular middle school to be home schooled with a Christian curriculum. I had science classes that taught against evolution. I had writing classes with exercises that were always Christianized in theme. I had math classes that had me adding and subtracting problems, with Bible verses on the sides of the page.

I went to Church every Sunday. And youth group every Tuesday. And I had Bible study every Wednesday. And in high school I led a Bible study with jr. High students every Thursday night. I lived and loved in the Church. It was, completely and wholly, my life. My doubts were brief, my emotions high, and I remember praying every night before bed...begging God not to judge me for the sins I still committed against him.

But here I was, 20 years old, at a seminary...never having anything that could be called "a crisis of faith" up until this point, and here speaking to my pastor...I could not accept the idea of God punishing people.

The idea of hell had always bothered me. Why had Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, yet only Christians got into heaven? Why would a god that ultimately is supposed to love us as we are created in his image...why would he throw us into hell? Why would that place even exist? The old phrase, "why do bad things happen to good people?" but on a larger and more eternal playing field.

And with the idea of predestination, came the idea that I made no life choices. I had no free will. While the belief in predestination is not one the whole of Christianity, or even a majority of it, accept as fact...the point was still hitting me on a daily basis at this point that I had no free will. God was so big and powerful that his plan was formed and written millions of years ago (figuratively), and there was nothing I could do to change anything.

My life suddenly felt dark and empty. My pastor even told me that I never accepted Jesus into my life. I was so dead in sin, that Jesus chose to save me. The pivotal moment in my life as a Christian...and it didn't even matter. I had done nothing. And it made me question, why go out and mission to people, when they are already chosen? If God made his mind up at the beginning, why should I try and save anyone?

That was my seed of doubt.

Then college came. I lived in the dorm my first year away for college, and my roommate was chosen randomly. He was, as it turned out, a former Christian who now studied philosophy. Over the course of the year me and him had many discussions about the way of life, the way things used to feel for us as Christians, and my doubt in the faith began to grow the more I read on things in the field of science. Things I had never learned in high school. I was taught about the lies in evolution, and now I was finding out that it was actually my book that had been lying. I learned about philosophy. I learned more about art. And every night I would talk to my roommate, and he would continue to answer my questions about things away from faith.

The last night of my Christian life, the last time I would identify myself as a Christian, I asked Robbie, my roommate, if he thought he was still happy without God in his life. I was so scared that I was going to be lonely and miserable without Him. I thought without Church, and Christ I was going to live a sad life.

Robbie didn't even answer with words. He just sat there and smiled. And that smile warmed me more than the smile of any pastor I had heard or seen in my life. It was a smile of comfort in life, with no mysticism. A life of just...life. No afterlife to worry about, no sins to atone for.

I was 20 years old, and I in that moment in my dorm, I stopped calling myself a Christian. It took me another year before I could fully stop believing in any version of a god, and a year after that until I could argue my points with all the friends I had that were Christians. And most of them still are, sadly.

I am 25 now, and I am more happy now than I ever was as a Christian. I don't have this huge guilt that I am a bad person hanging over my head. I don't constantly feel like I am this evil creature. I don't go about my life worrying about heaven or hell, but just the only life I have in front of me. Now, in addition to grad school and work, I work with people in my own community to help others escape from Christianity in the heart of the belt buckle.

I cannot believe how long it took me to get out, but I am thankful that I have the rest of my life to help others try and get out earlier. You don't have to live a lie. You don't have to live a life away from science and facts, from true enlightenment. You can be free to accept the world as a flawed place, and work on making this world, this earth a better place, rather than just hoping for a good afterlife.

There is hope, after faith.
 
Blogger Telmi said...
Welcome, Johnny.

You have discovered early what some others had discovered much later in their lives. And that's a big plus for you. Congrats.


Blogger xrayman said...
Hey Johnny,

Beautiful, simply beautiful. What I wouldn't have given to be completely whitewashed of God belief at 25. My life was much different than yours for I was never a devout Christian, but a totally religiously confused individual for the first 43 years of my life. I was in religious limbo my entire life. I never really found Jesus, yet I often feared it was because I was unworthy, and I often feared Hell. I always wondered why I couldn't have this wonderful religious experience/life so many professed. I wanted it so bad.

Well I guess looking back at my life I guess deep down inside my subconscious mind was always an atheist, and would never allow me to fully buy into religous bullshit. It only took me a couple days of reading on sites like this to completely free myself from God belief two years ago. At 45 I am a very vocal loudmouthed strong atheist.

So Mr. Johnny please tell us how you relate to your family at this point in your life..........


Blogger billybee said...
Hi Johnny,

Your testimony of de-conversion is another great example of people who tried and tried and tried to believe, but were unable to stop their common sense from doing its job.

Peace of mind comes when you stop trying to force the square peg of faith into the round hole of truth.

You wrote ".... Now, in addition to grad school and work, I work with people in my own community to help others escape from Christianity in the heart of the belt buckle..."

I would be very interested in what this entails...maybe you'll write a piece on it...?

Thanks for your inspiring letter that proves that people can break free. I hope your influence and example will be the door to a new life for those are searching for their way out of confusion and fear.

hi to xrayman & ryan.


I have always had a problem with the hyper-calvanist and calvanist doctrines, especially predestination and total depravity mainly because the calvanists also claim that god is just and fair - depriving humans of free will is unjust and unfair. I think the main reason for the formation of the doctrine of predestination is to give creedance to the idea of omniscience because how could a being know what will happen in the future if he can not control all aspects of the present [this is also why they beleive that we have no free will]? Who ever thought this doctrne up is an idiot anyway, because the creator can still have perfect future knowledge if humans have free will - simply by knowing every possibility [and consequence of the effect of freely willed action]in the present implies perfect knowledge of what will happen in the future anyhow. The doctrine of predestination is quite rediculous and even dangerous because it absolves people of any moral responsibility for their actions - in other words, since things were already planned eons ago, why should a person in the future be held responsibile for breaking the law?


Blogger Lorena said...
Nicely written, Richard.

Your article made me realize that the Christian faith makes no sense, no matter how you look at it.

If one lives in a Christian environment where God is portrayed as judgmental and abusive, then the image contradicts the message of a loving, caring God.

If one lives in a Christian environment of love and understanding, then the image of a punishing, vindictive God makes no sense at all.


Blogger Magick1369 said...
Congratulations Johnny on your choice to reject the fear, guilt, and shame of Christian dogma. I am like everyone else here...I wondered what was wrong with me. I went to church and never felt anything. I'd pray to Jesus and would feel and receive nothing. Now the answer is obvious...A historical Jesus never existed...there isn't a shred of evidence for him. Christianity is merely a rehash of pagan god-man myths. Good luck bro.


Blogger Boe said...
Bravo! What a wonderful testamonial. I am an athiest, brought up by athiest parents. The only thiests knocking around in my wider family have been an aunt and her mother - my grandmother, who were/are Plymouth Bretheren. They have been off the scene since my early childhood - non association with the wicked.
Even from this perspective I find religion scary, so I can't imagine what it's like for someone freeing themselves from a whole life of indoctrination. For this reason I have a huge respect for peolple such as the members of this site.


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
Johnny the OP said:
I had math classes that had me adding and subtracting problems, with Bible verses on the sides of the page.
----
Johnny,

Congratulations on popping the xtian bubble they had you trapped inside of !!
Wonderful Testimony you wrote.

Now about these bible verses on the side of your math problems:

On the division pages, did they perhaps insist in those verses, that 22 / 7 = 3 ?

On the geometry pages, did they show a picture of a flat earth circle, for a sphere?

I have to wonder what algebra class might have been like.
What might have the bible verses showed for a possible solution to this algebraic word problem :...

God leaves heaven for Earth at exactly 3:00 PM (trinity time), traveling at 3X light speed (trinity speed).
The Devil leaves Earth at 6:16 PM to stop god from arriving and is traveling at 666X light speed.
[Note to student: Please ignore the illusion that the Devil is faster than god in this problem]

Student: Calculate which false god in the vastness of space, the two will eventually meet up at.

Bonus points will be given if the student can also calculate the winner.
Show all work, including any crayon sketches you drew as a visual aide.


ATF (Who wonders if the science books also contained nuggets of biblical science to?)


Blogger The AntiChristian said...
Johnny,
Welcome to the world of reason. I bailed out of Christianity 28 years ago, at about the same age as you - never regretted it.

It's funny how when you start studying Christianity you find out how untenable it really is.


Blogger resonate11 said...
Fabulous testimony, Johnny! Thanks for helping others "escape from Christianity." How do you go about this praise worthy task?


Blogger ManateeClaw27 said...
yep...doubts in college, me too. and fear of being alone without a God of some sort, yes I have that.
thank you for your story, Richard. I found it awesome that you got to come up with your own common sense and truth, not predigested rules.

although I think I consider myself to be a liberal christian, I don't believe in hell other than a state of mind caused by a feeling of separation from the rest of the world (which I felt when I was 8, ironically, when I was trying to convert people like my mom did). I remember telling her a couple years ago, around age 25, "weeping and gnashing of teeth? but we're doing that now!"

Brainwashing, yes, I either brainwashed myself as a kid by wanting to follow all the rules, or my church and church-school did, or both. That said, I know people who went to the same church and school and did not experience the same disastrous internal effects that I did, possibly because of my temperament to begin with.

I took it literally. Not all of them did. The ones who didn't take it literally I thought were lazy, or hypocritical, or indulging in wishful thinking so they could have fun (Imagine that!).

The worst-case scenario was always the correct version, in my mind.

Oops.

That said, I feel like I'm "advertising for the competition" whenever I express anger at the form of (evangelical) christianity I was brought up with. the lurking fear is that it might be true, and guess what, I'm leading people astray. that was my greatest fear as a young kid and young adult...it's okay if I don't want to believe in the literal resurrection and take the consequences, but who am I to jeopardize others (!) by not converting them or putting on a good show for them. boy am I a powerful character. Haha.

what a lot of pressure.

Best wishes.


OpenID the-walruss said...
ATV,

The answer to your math problem is, of course, Jesus.

Calvanist predestination is the inevitable conclusion a person must draw when they accept the premises that God is omnipotent, that he created everything, and that all things occur for a reason (All the most basic tenents of Christian faith). Any Christian who claims anything less is not being intellectually honest. But then again, that's about par for the course.


Blogger shay said...
I love this site. I really liked the fact that it just hit you and you were able to walk with it until you got out. I hope that it doesn't ever come back to haunt you. It did to me but I still plug away at what I know is true.
Shay


Blogger shay said...
I love this site. I'm just so glad you were able to take your first revelation and walk with it until you got out and over to the other side. I hope it doesn't come back to haunt you. I did me but I just keep towing the line becuz I know it's the truth not to "Believe" etc.
shay


Blogger Trancelation said...
Welcome, Johnny, and thank you for sharing your story.

The details of your eventual deconversion really shine a light on the narrow-mindedness of religion. Religious individuals can't see beyond the world as it is defined in their religion - and that is so sad, because life is so beautiful. When something doesn't mesh with the answers they've been given, they have to ostracize it. As you continue to find meaning without religion, and find happiness, the religious will continue to deny that you are happy or posses meaning. Prove them wrong. Welcome to freedom and reality!


Blogger aggiesoccer said...
Talking about the close mindedness of Christians, there are a long line of great thinkers who were Christian: CS Lewis, JR Tolkien, along with many of the renaissance scientists.
I take the bible as God's showing of himself to mankind. There is grace and truth, Heaven and Hell, predestination and free will and without a doubt the most beautiful story of sacrifice and love. When I was 18 and decided that I wanted to believe in Christ I did so on the premise of historical comparison to other religions and also that there must be a God because of everything around us (the universe, the earth, mountains, waterfalls, vast oceans, atoms that have enough power locked in them to power a city for weeks). If there is no God (which I am fully open to) then what an incredible accident! If there is a God and he has not revealed himself to us then God is cold and to me is not someone worth knowing. Its seems most logical that if God created all this then he would find a way to make himself known. There are stuggles and weights in being Christian which not associatated with being non-Christian. There is a general weirdness about a lot of churches and people in churches. On the flipside there is richness and joy in praying and learning about God which I never find in anything else in life. There is something that changes in my heart and mind and I am more motivated to love others, love God, and enjoy all the little things in life. And life is beautiful.

But in the end what matters is what is true. It’s not about what we want to believe. Its about digging and seeking truth.


Would love to hear back.


Blogger aggiesoccer said...
Forgot to add MLK along with Bono to the list of great thinkers


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
aggiesoccer wrote:
Talking about the close mindedness of Christians, there are a long line of great thinkers who were Christian: CS Lewis, JR Tolkien, along with many of the renaissance scientists
---
Aggie,
Where on earth do you get the idea that CS Lewis is some "great thinker"?
(He's more like a con-man/comedian, in my mind.)
Sure, he knows how to do PR, but so do most actors and I doubt we would classify most actors as 'great thinkers'.

What a pity that you seem to idolize such a con man !!

>I take the bible as God's showing of himself to mankind.

I would much rather this god of yours, pays me a visit instead.
Heck, I'll even cook him dinner, if he can find time in his busy schedule?


>There is grace and truth, Heaven and Hell, predestination and free will and without a doubt the most beautiful story of sacrifice and love.

The key word in your sentence here was STORY.
I suppose one can find grace and truth in a 'story', but it's still nothing but a story in the end.

FYI......if you believe in predestination, then what's the point in trying to change ourselves for this god being?
My fate is already written in stone, right.


>When I was 18 and decided that I wanted to believe in Christ

And there is your whole reason in a nutshell....You WANTED TO BELIEVE the fable, see?


> I did so on the premise of historical comparison to other religions and also that there must be a God because of everything around us (the universe, the earth, mountains, waterfalls, vast oceans, atoms that have enough power locked in them to power a city for weeks).

So you're saying that things of beauty or complexity, are evidence for this god being?
So let me ask you then, who created the ugly things in this universe then?
Let me guess, the devil?

As far as YOU being awed by complexity, doesn't add one iota to any evidence that a god being had to create it.
It only means, your mind won't accept what it can't understand, without introducing god as the answer to the problem.

> If there is no God (which I am fully open to) then what an incredible accident! If there is a God and he has not revealed himself to us then God is cold and to me is not someone worth knowing.

That pretty much sums it all up....COLD.
If there are any god type beings out there, they are not concerned about this tiny earth, nor it's inhabitants.
If you have evidence to the contrary, we'd be happy to weigh it?


> Its seems most logical that if God created all this then he would find a way to make himself known.

First you ASSUME a god had to create all this, then you assume he would make himself known to us.
Do much assuming for other things in your day to day life?
I think you MUST.


> There are stuggles and weights in being Christian which not associatated with being non-Christian.

Yeah, it's called letting one's mind be brainwashed by foolishness.
Although, I have my doubts that it's much of a struggle for some, to allow such brainwashing.


>There is a general weirdness about a lot of churches and people in churches.

Noooo, say it isn't so?
Weirdness, you say.
Maybe they are weird because your god is also WEIRD?


>On the flipside there is richness and joy in praying and learning about God which I never find in anything else in life.

I never ever found any 'richness' or 'joy in praying. In fact, quite the opposite.
Praying felt like an act of begging that was all too futile. Much like one would feel asking a rock to cure their sore throat.
As far as learning about god, nothing could have been more boring to me when I was a boy.


> There is something that changes in my heart and mind and I am more motivated to love others, love God, and enjoy all the little things in life. And life is beautiful.

Trust me, it wasn't any god who changed your heart or made life seem beautiful to you.
You talked yourself into seeing things that way, all because you wanted to and found a way to trick your own mind into believing it was possible to do so.

>But in the end what matters is what is true. It’s not about what we want to believe. Its about digging and seeking truth.

Exactly !!
However, in order to know something is 'true', one has to have evidence and facts to support it being true.
I'm very sure you have no evidence or facts, that would prove your god exists, right?
What you do have, I'm betting, are feelings that god is real, along with a clever way of skewing things of chance in your life, to make them appear to point to a non-existent god having influenced your life's course.
I can do the same type of thing by asking my pet rock to help my life along and anytime something positive happens, I thank my pet rock for it's divine help.

You also WILL always find remarkable events in your life that occur.
While they may seem mystical because they seem to be long-shots, such things MUST happen to all of us, and DO in fact.
The difference is that folks who lack a belief in the supernatural will not assign such things of rare chance to some god being, while god believers enjoy doing just that for some reason.

>Would love to hear back.

Okay, so I took the time to fulfill your request here.
Now fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for the existence of your god, or anything supernatural for that matter, okay?


ATF ( Who thinks the coward god hides himself away, because he lacks [soccer] balls )


Blogger aggiesoccer said...
One question, just want to hear feedback on. How do you rationalize the big bang and the appearance of billions upon billions of complex atoms powered toward the end of the still growing universe without some force behind it? Do you hold faith in future scientific discovery?
Thanks for your reply.


Blogger aggiesoccer said...
Also fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for there not being the existence of God, or anything supernatural for that matter.

I think we are just going to come to the conclusion that everyone believes what they want and nobody is really for sure.


Blogger resonate11 said...
"I think we are just going to come to the conclusion that everyone believes what they want..."

So, aggiesoccer, the question really is, Why do you want to believe in the Biblical gods or, if you prefer, the Christian God? Surely you know, having read your bible, how heinous they were or He was.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
aggie...I take the bible as God's showing of himself to mankind.

I take the bible as a dusty old outdated, outmoded, 2000 yr-old book of myths, much of which was plagiarized from earlier belief-systems.

aggie...There is grace and truth[in the bible]...

What is "grace"? And as for "truth", find me a domestic ass that speaks hebrew.

aggie...Heaven and Hell[in the bible]..

Yes, yes..of course---"reward"... and "torture"(notice, I don't say "punishment", because technically, punishment ends)

aggie...predestination and free will[in the bible]

Um, did you happen to notice that "free will"/"predestination" is an oxymoron? In other words, if someone's fate is predetermined, then their "free will" is utterly usless; they only have the illusion of "free will", at best.

aggie...and without a doubt the most beautiful story of sacrifice and love.

Did you say "love"? What "love"? What "sacrifice"? Is not "Jesus" in our midst? Is "Jesus" not "alive"? If he is alive and supposedly in our midst, then there was no "sacrifice". Furthermore, if "Jesus" only accepts those who reciprocate his "love", then that "love" is certainly conditional, which makes a mockery of the word "love".

aggie continues...Also fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for there not being the existence of God, or anything supernatural for that matter.

Please fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence that invisible fairies don't live under my refrigerator, and from there, they control the Universe.


Blogger Astreja said...
Aggiesoccer: "How do you rationalize the big bang and the appearance of billions upon billions of complex atoms powered toward the end of the still growing universe without some force behind it?"

Physics.

"Do you hold faith in future scientific discovery?"

Science is far from perfect, but the scientific method allows us to improve upon our knowledge simply by being emotionally detached and careful in our measurements and observations.

Religion fails that test on two counts: One, it is emotionally involved; and two, there doesn't yet seem to be any way of objectively identifying, observing and measuring a "god".

"Also fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for there not being the existence of God, or anything supernatural for that matter."

Due to the difficulty of conclusively proving a negative assertion, the burden of proof rests with the person making the positive assertion. Therefore, it's up to you to prove that gods and the supernatural do exist.

In the meantime, I'm going to chat with the fairies under boomSLANG's fridge.


Blogger Dave8 said...
Aggiesoccer: "Also fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for there not being the existence of God, or anything supernatural for that matter."

First of all, no one is obligated to "prove", that your imaginative expression of "supernatural", etc., lacks a referent in our common reality.

The burden of proof is on you, to show a connection between your imaginative expression(s), and the common reality we share - good luck.


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
aggiesoccer wrote:
Also fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for there not being the existence of God, or anything supernatural for that matter
----
Aggie,

It's already been explained to you that the one making the extraordinary claim is the one who is obligated to provide the extraordinary evidence.
If that wasn't a 'rule', then society would have to accept every crazy claim that anyone presented to it, right?
In other words, we would spend all our time chasing after fictitious 'ghost', instead of putting our efforts and thoughts into legitimate endeavors of discovery.

In addition, it's very difficult to 'prove a negative', if not impossible.
If a thing doesn't exist, it's a whole lot more difficult to prove it doesn't, rather than if it did.
If I told you that I had an invisible and undetectable huge dog in my garage, how would you prove that I was lying and that this dog didn't exist?
You have to admit, you would be hard pressed to prove I was lying, wouldn't you?

So to prove a non-existent god being doesn't exists, is also a difficult matter to do.
On the other hand, if such a god does exists, it shouldn't be hard at all to prove it's existence, especially if such a god is interacting with this earth and it's life forms, right?

Now if by chance, there is some god being out-there somewhere, but this god does not interact with our earth and us, then what value would such a god have to our lives?
Therefore, the only situation where such a god being would be of value to us humans, is if it has some interaction with us, yes?

Now, can we discover if this god interacts with us; assuming it does in fact exist.
We can indeed, if we know what to look for.
If one insist that the bible god is THE god of the universe and the bible tells us the truth about this god, then we have the means to discover it's existence, based on the attributes the bible tells us about this god's behavior towards humankind.

If the bible claims this god causes supernatural things to occur, then we should be able to detect those things in our lives, should we not?
If we can not, then what value would such supernatural actions have for us?

The bible claims that god has performed all kinds of miracles, both grand and small scale.
Of course, the grander miracles have never been seen in modern times, so one has to take it on faith that such ancient grand miracles actually took place.
Alas, outside of your bible story, history is silent about such grand miracles, so we have to look for smaller scale miracles in modern times.

What might such miracles be then.
Well the bible makes it very clear that god answers prayer, does he not?
Now he might be a bit choosy about what prayers he answers, but I think we can safely assume he would answer SOME, no?
After all, if he answers no prayers, then again what is the point of having such a god in our lives?

If we were to do a study to see how many prayers are answered, what do you think we should expect to see?
Would you expect a success rate of 100%, 50%, 10% or just a measly 1%?

Let's take a look at prayers used to heal people. Would you expect at least a 10% success rate in healing people for medical problems that could never heal themselves?
Is asking 10% of your god, too much or too little?

Now here's the problem.

When we do such studies, we find that the surgical patients who were prayed for, do NO better than the patients who were not prayed for.
In fact, in the last study, the one's being prayed for did WORSE in their recovery times.

If we now add to these statistics, the fact that your god never restores missing limbs from even the most earnest of xtians, then what does that say about the chances of your god existing as advertised by your bible book?

As far as other things of the supernatural goes, such evidence has been sought after for as long as I can remember, yet with the plethora of folks who have tried to prove it's existence, we have yet to have any verifiable evidence to support anything beyond our physical existence.
No one has ever proved that ghosts exist on this earth.
No one has shown a positive repeatable ability for ESP or telepathy.
Not a single person has every levitated an object, without using trickery to do so.


If one could prove ghosts were real, then we might have a reason to start looking for your god. If one could show that we have souls inside us that live on after our bodies die, then again, we would have a reason to start searching further.
There is plainly no evidence for such souls and believe me, so many have tried to find that proof and all have failed in their quest to do so.

The list of supernatural beliefs is very long and yet not a single item from that list has been proven to be more than folks being deceived into such false beliefs.

If YOU are so inclined to believe that things supernatural exist, that some god(s) exist, then that is your right to do so. However, realize that your belief is nothing more than a personal decision based on blind faith and emotions, and has no place in reality as we understand it.

As a final note, let me say this to you......
You may WISH for many things to exist in this world, but wishing for them to exist, does not make them pop into existence.
I keep wishing for 6 million dollars, but so far it has yet to materialize on my doorstep.


ATF (Who just knows the bible god shipped that money to him, as he typed this comment)


Blogger Dave8 said...
Aggiesoccer: "Talking about the close mindedness of Christians, there are a long line of great thinkers who were Christian: CS Lewis, JR Tolkien, along with many of the renaissance scientists."

Just an open-minded observation about self-proclaimed Christians in general, whether they be intellectually gifted, or not.

Religion does not generate intellectually gifted people; people are "born" with their gifts, regardless of religion. Therefore, "religion" is not to be "credited" for producing "intelligent" people.

While religion does seem to have provided a "focus" for many intellectually gifted people throughout history; it can only be honesty observed that the "products" of such gifted intellectuals, were literary "entertainment", and/or scientific research, that did not "once" validate the Christian concept of God.

If anything, such intellectuals should be credited for "secularizing" Christianity, and "not" for establishing a single authoritative element of Truth, to "validate" the doctrine of Christianity as a deity’s writing.


Blogger Cousin Ricky said...
aggiesoccer wrote: “One question, just want to hear feedback on. How do you rationalize the big bang and the appearance of billions upon billions of complex atoms powered toward the end of the still growing universe without some force behind it?”

The laws of nature. Quantum mechanics and relativity drove the big bang, and led, inexorably, to the formation of galaxies, stars, and planets. On at least one planet, the laws of chemistry led to self-replicating molecules. A process of ratcheting, called natural selection, honed these molecules into successful living species. No magic, no improbable fluke, just orderly processes.

aggiesoccer wrote: “Do you hold faith in future scientific discovery?”

Historically, it’s the only reliable route to knowledge that we have—and it has been spectacularly successful in explaining things.

aggiesoccer wrote: “Also fulfill my request of providing REAL evidence for there not being the existence of God, or anything supernatural for that matter.”

Are you kidding??? Please look up Russell’s teapot to understand the absurdity of your request.

My observation is that everything proceeds according to immutable natural “laws.” There are no exceptions (“miracles”); all alleged miracles have plausible explanations that do not violate our uniform experience of how the world operates.

While this doesn’t prove that the supernatural doesn’t exist, it is overwhelming evidence that, if it does exist, it plays no role in our lives. God, if he exists, behaves precisely as if he doesn’t. True, that could all change starting next Tuesday, but i have no cause to believe that it will.

aggiesoccer wrote: “I think we are just going to come to the conclusion that everyone believes what they want and nobody is really for sure.”

Not here. While admitting that i could be wrong (making me oh-so-very slightly agnostic), i believe according to what my senses, my experience, and my learnings tell me. My initial learnings were of (one of the many flavors of) Christianity. My recent learnings tell me that what i was taught earlier collapses under scrutiny. I could not continue to believe without forcefully dismissing the new information—i.e., lying to myself. Atheism isn’t what i wanted to believe; it was the inevitable conclusion that i faced, based on the data available to my brain.


Blogger aggiesoccer said...
Thanks for all the replies. Its been a pleasure reading through them all.

I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I started searching when I was 18 after many failed attempts to fulfill myself throughout high school with drugs, skateboarding, doing all the right things and nothing worked. There was always something missing. Something knawing at me. At 18 I had not stepped into a church for 11 years. I went to a christmas candlelight service with my aunt and something just began to tug at me. I started going to a church for a while but thought it was boaring.
Late one night it all came together when I was studying at a library on the university in my city. Two guys walked past me went ahead about 100 feet and then turned around and ran back toward me. They were two guys from a church in town and for the following 45 minutes they proceeded to share the gospel with me. I felt a feeling during that time that I had never felt before. A feeling of warmth and peace deep within my soul. Afterwards I was pretty much speechless. I didn't believe right there but 3 months later (after much investigation and soul searching) I did.

After reading many of your responses, it seems like a few of you have angst towards the church or the way you were raised within the church. Also evil in the world seems to be topic and how can there be so much evil and a God who is everywhere.

These to me are matters of the heart. When I read about particle physics or relativity or I see pictures of massive galaxies I see the hand of God in such things. And I don't think I am alone in this as Einstein was known to have the ideal that the order of the universe was that of an intelligent being because its order and complexity. There are many who are proponents of this within the scientific community but often their views are pushed off to the side. I believe this is rightly so as science deals with matter. Science does not dabble in ideology and things that have no substance. Science will never come to the conclusion of an intelligent being because they cannot wrap their fingers around it or view it in a telescope. There is no scientific method that will prove the existence of something you can't see.

There are changed lives though, the majority of charity organizations in the world are Christian. You see men like Martin Luther King walk in faith knowing that his prayers against the injustice of the African American community will not go unanswered. You have Bono who is spurned on through love to wipe out poverty in the entirety of Africa. You have Mother Teresa who became a example of how to serve the poor all over the world. Then you have me..giving up my career as a civil engineer in order to serve students and the poorest of the poor in Argentina.


Blogger aggiesoccer said...
The conclusion..
We all are unsure..you could be right or I could be right. Science will never prove one way or the other. The question is what is in your heart.


Blogger Dave8 said...
Aggiesoccer: "There are changed lives though, the majority of charity organizations in the world are Christian."

It is the "charity" of the people, who form organizations that are "charitable" - regardless, of how the bible teaches, how to be "uncharitable". Aggie, would you create a torture chamber, and torture billions of children for not submitting to your wishes - your God concept, as dictated in the Christian Bible did.

If you have charity, it isn't "because" of your "religious" doctrine - it's because you are not "practicing" your religion, based on your doctrine.

Aggiesoccer: "You see men like Martin Luther King...Bono...Mother Teresa..."

All of whom, behaved according to their own moral principles; "not" found or established by the God of the Christian Bible. Would you "kill" your son, because you happen to make a mistake? Your God of the Christian Bible did, or he did it on purpose (murder).

I suppose, what this means... is that the there is no "causal" factor between the Christian God of the bible, and the charity of "anyone" human, regardless of their cognitive position/belief.

On Albert E., he used the term God metaphorically, in a quote, "God does not play dice" with the Universe, to make a physics point... that "everything" in Nature, functions according to pure deterministic principles."

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/dice.html

As well...

"A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes.

Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/einsci.htm

Aggiesoccer: "We all are unsure..you could be right or I could be right. Science will never prove one way or the other. The question is what is in your heart."

Interesting, that you continue to posture scientists, etc., for support, but then suggest that science will never provide the answers we seek... that seems to presume you understand my questions that are meaningful to me.

"My" questions can be answered by science and "my" experience(s), and while I do not discount the qualitative nature of my experience while in reality... I experience them as "natural", and "real" - not, "supernatural" or "surreal".

"Your" questions can never exceed the existence that you drew them from. Your answers, reside in the exact same place, your questions were created. If you have questions, without answers, it's because you have failed to make the appropriate connection(s), between your existence and the reality in which you reside.


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
aggiesoccer wrote:
You have Mother Teresa who became a example of how to serve the poor all over the world
---
Aggie,

Perhaps you didn't happen to read the Time Magazine report a few months ago, on Mother Teresa?
While the article focused on her huge lack of faith in your bible god, others have noted that she was anything but a good example for someone like you to use to bolster your religion.

Go to this page and search on 'mother teresa' to see more opinions about her not-so-blessed life
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/09/christian-significance.html

ATF (Who wonders why god was so silent, to someone so famous, of a bible religion)


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
aggiesoccer wrote:
When I read about particle physics or relativity or I see pictures of massive galaxies I see the hand of God in such things
---
Aggie,

First, I'd like to point out that you did NOT reply to my point about praying to god, not being at all effective. If it is effective, is there some hidden reason you can cite to us, that it doesn't show up as being effective in all the many studies that have been done on the matter?
Perhaps your answer might be that the devil skews the results every time, on purpose, just to keep us heathens in the dark about your god?


>I felt a feeling during that time that I had never felt before. A feeling of warmth and peace deep within my soul.

Once again, the offer of proof for this god, is all about someone's FEELINGS and nothing else. Have your feelings ever been wrong in your life, about anything?
Just because you got a warm fuzzy feeling inside you during that moment, doesn't offer a shred of evidence that some god was in contact with you, now does it?
Really, if the only benefit this god of yours offers us, is warm fuzzy feelings, then I'm sure I can find those feelings by other earthly methods that don't assume anything supernatural.

Are you aware that every single xtian that comes in here to prove god to us, always talks about their feelings. Beyond feelings, we sometimes get hearsay stories of some miracles, but never anything that can be backed up or demonstrated to us.

So I guess this life critical decision of yours, was made 100% on some warm fuzzy feeling you had, yes?


>When I read about particle physics or relativity or I see pictures of massive galaxies I see the hand of God in such things.

Again, you don't actually 'see' this god, but assume instead that god-did-it.
Why...because you wish to believe that some god made it all and so you assume he must have.
Beyond that wishful thinking though, you have zip.


Also, could you please explain to me why these billions of "massive galaxies" were made by your god?
Wouldn't that be just a wee bit of an overkill, just to find a home for his pet humans, that he wants to worship his very needy god self?

>There is no scientific method that will prove the existence of something you can't see.

That is only true if your childish god continues to play his game of hide and seek.
If instead, your god is actually intervening in the course of human existence, then such intervening would be not only obvious, but demonstrable to even the casual observer.
Again, given that your bible claims that god will do various things for his followers, right up to performing miracles, we have yet to see any such actions from your god, outside of those warm feelings you cite to us.

Gosh, I have to wonder why your god behaves so childish, as well as him reneging on his biblical promises to his followers.
Could it be, that your bible god is a work of fiction, made up by men of long ago to control the masses....Yeah, I think so and so should you.

Now, you are young yet, and your life is of course, your own.
Think about how you would feel if in 10 or 20 years, you realize we were right and there is no bible god.
Think about this NOW, and follow a course in your life that you won't regret, if that time should come that you lose your faith in this imaginary god being.
If you don't, I promise you that you will be as sorry about what you missed out in life, as many of us here came to be, because we got caught up in the web of religion.


ATF (Who really hates to see someone so young, go down that same blind path that many of us did, once upon a time)


Blogger Astreja said...
Aggiesoccer: "There is no scientific method that will prove the existence of something you can't see."

Putting aside for the moment such matters such as physics and microbiology... Science is not about 'proof' or 100% certainty. Rather, it's a process that analyzes evidence. Data is collected, hypotheses formed, and possible explanations tested. We can use these theories to great advantage without bothering to perfect them, exchanging them for better ones as they arise.

ATF: "That is only true if [aggiesoccer's] childish god continues to play his game of hide and seek... If instead, your god is actually intervening in the course of human existence, then such intervening would be not only obvious, but demonstrable to even the casual observer."

Yes, a god that affects any form of matter or energy should leave some sort of tangible physical trail that unexpectedly vanishes at the "god boundary".

Specifically, I hypothesize that any transcendent being acting upon the physical universe would probably cause an apparent breakdown of cause and effect (detectable as violations of Newton's Third Law) as viewed from the mortals' side of the barrier.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
aggiesoccer...We all are unsure..you could be right or I could be right.

To say one "could be right" implies possibility/ies. That, however, says nothing of plausibility. They are two entirely different things; "apples & oranges". Moreover, if the subject or concept in question has attributes that contradict, both logically and philosophically, then we can conclude that said subject is not only implausible, but impossible. A being - ANY being - who is claimed to have both limitless "free will"(omnipotence), and limitless knowledge of the future(omniscience) is an impossibility. This would include the Christian biblegod; "He" is not exempt.

*And no, I'm not being "dogmatic", nor does my pointing out the philosophical inconsistancies in a given concept make me a "militant Atheist".


Boomslang said: A being - ANY being - who is claimed to have both limitless "free will"(omnipotence), and limitless knowledge of the future(omniscience) is an impossibility. This would include the Christian biblegod; "He" is not exempt.

--Let me play devils advocate here - its not impossible to have perfect future knowledge as well as infinite free will - because if one was the creator, then he would know ALL of the possibilities in creation, and thus knows all of the possible outcomes perfectly without infringing on the creations free will - the creator just leaves it up to the free willed to do as they please, and judgement becomes justified because of this. Its a possitive paradox really - to know all of the possibilities is to know every outcome, but for there to be possibility, the creator would have to NOT control the subjects...Its kind of like being an experiment in a controlled environment, where the scientist knows every possible outcome, but watches to see which one the subjects will choose and then continues on with the experiment accordingly.


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
Stephen_Richard_Webb wrote:
Its a possitive paradox really - to know all of the possibilities is to know every outcome, but for there to be possibility, the creator would have to NOT control the subjects...Its kind of like being an experiment in a controlled environment, where the scientist knows every possible outcome, but watches to see which one the subjects will choose and then continues on with the experiment accordingly.
----
Stephen,

I had previously considered the very point you bring up here in this matter, but I spotted a flaw that I wish to point out now.

If we have a deck of 52 playing cards, and we are being dealt 1 of those cards, we know it MUST be one of the 52 in that deck. So unless we have perfect ESP, we may know all the 52 possibilities but we can't be sure which 1 card out of 52, will be the one we're dealt.

God on the other hand, would not only know the same 52 possible outcomes, but he MUST know which 1 card, will be the one dealt to us.

While from our human playing field, it might seem as if we have millions of possible life-paths we could follow, this all-knowing god would have to know the ONE and ONLY outcome that we will have in our lives.

If god only knows all the many possible outcomes, and not the one we will take, then he can't be all-knowing.
To be all-knowing, he would have to know the exact outcome of our lives, regardless of the choices that might have seemed possible for our lives.

So the end problem is the same. If god knows the outcome with 100% certainty, then can god change that outcome or is he powerless to do so?
If he can change the outcome at any time, then his ESP of our future was flawed, as he didn't realize he would change the outcome himself.

As Boomslang has pointed out MANY times, you can't have it both ways, so you have to pick one.


ATF (Who see's many such god paradox examples. that would preclude such a god from existing, as advertised)


AthiestToothFairy wrote:
So unless we have perfect ESP, we may know all the 52 possibilities but we can't be sure which 1 card out of 52, will be the one we're dealt.

God on the other hand, would not only know the same 52 possible outcomes, but he MUST know which 1 card, will be the one dealt to us.

I was playing devils advocate you know [pun intended] -- But one thing did jump out at me, when you mentioned "Unless we had perfect ESP" - is that not the very nature of omniscience? After all, I believe that the
"Divine Mind is like a perfect sphere, the circumference of which is NOWhere, and the center everyone. - Exists without place, as it is the space in which all things exist." Just like space itself, it has no boundary, and therefore its center be everywhere...


**I meant "Center everywhere" [not Center everyone - although that would be included as well.]


Blogger boomSLANG said...
Stephen Richard Webb...--Let me play devils advocate here - its not impossible to have perfect future knowledge as well as infinite free will - because if one was the creator, then he would know ALL of the possibilities in creation, and thus knows all of the possible outcomes perfectly without infringing on the creations free will[emphasis added]

Hello,

While I understand where you have attempted to take this, I must point out right away that the "creations free will" - or in the possessive case - the creation's "free will", is not in the equation. Again, it is the "free will" of the hypothetical creator that would be limited, that is, if, as you hypothesize, the creator "knows all of the possible outcomes perfectly". If the latter is true; if the "creator" knows the outcome of all future events, then said future must be solidified. In such a case, the creator knows all of its future choices, thus, said being does not have "free will" like you and I(the "created") have it... thus, said "creator" cannot "act" as a personal being. If it knows the future set of events, including our choices, etc., then there's nothing to deliberate on; everything is "planned", so-to-speak.

So, again, said "creator" might have perfect knowledge of the future(omniscience), but if so, its "free will" is limited, thus, it cannot have unlimited "free will"(omnipotence)

Best,


For me, the goal in life is to realize [understand the implications of] my own infinite potential - some would say that there is no such thing as infinite potential, but if the future represents infinite possibility, then so too must the present possess infinite potential for you can not have one without the other. - Knowing that things could have been different in the past had I chosen to act differently still doesn't change the fact that the Divine Creator knew perfectly the possibility of it from the inception of cosmos - I beleive that the Divine travels with us, and therefore also knows perfectly well what we will do as well all of its infinite possible outcomes.


I think the argument is over the definition of omniscience in light of absolute omniscience...I know, omniscience is omniscience, but think about the gift of free will given from the Creator to the created - that gift is a partial sacrifice of omniscience for the sake of elevating some men, and demoting others dependant on their deeds [to be just] by deciding NOT to control man and solidify his actions, the Creator has just created an ENTIRE REALM of possibibilty, as opposed to just having created a single pointless "thread" of reality. couple the idea of mans free will contained within a cosmos that IS PRE-DETERMINED and now you have an idea of where the whole "shebang" ends up anyhow. After all, I don't think that the free will of man is going to determine how the universe will end [if it even will end for that matter]. Just some devil food for thought...SRW


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
Stephen_Richard_Webb wrote:
I was playing devils advocate you know [pun intended] -- But one thing did jump out at me, when you mentioned "Unless we had perfect ESP" - is that not the very nature of omniscience?
----
Yes Stephen, and that was indeed my point, that if he is all-knowing, he would have to have perfect ESP and thus always know the 'fixed' outcome, from the many that might-have-been.

> After all, I believe that the "Divine Mind is like a perfect sphere, the circumference of which is NOWhere, and the center everyone. - Exists without place, as it is the space in which all things exist." Just like space itself, it has no boundary, and therefore its center be everywhere...

I'm not sure what this has to do with two of god's powers being in contradiction with each other, but I will of course agree that if god is, as the bible advertises him to be, then what you say would follow "suit" ---to re-use those playing cards once again here.

Of course, that makes one wonder how such a single minded entity, could be so vastly large, as to encompass the entire universe(s) and all the infinite space beyond it/them.
Just to try and comprehend our own known universe, is a mind boggling task, let alone multi-universes as some believe exist, so how can we account for a god being that exists everywhere at the same time, that knows everything of the past, present and future-- in every speck of the universe(s), and has an infinite amount of power besides.
Oh, then we add in that this god wasn't created at all, but somehow just always existed throughout all time.

Funny how such a being with all THAT going for him, would be so darn elusive to make contact with, and at the same time, insist that it gives a hoot about us mere mortals--- and of course, needs us to worship it.

Just blows my mind, that I ever swallowed all this hyperbole at one time in my life.


ATF (Who wonders how god lost track of where Adam and Eve were hiding, in HIS garden)


Doesn't a free willed creator imply that it might not want absolute control over the creation, only part of it? After all, that is a choice. And what if the choice in sacrificing absolute perfect future knowledge ended up creating a realm of infinite possibility, thus increasing or even creating an infinite wealth of knowledge for itself? So by sacrificing part of its own pefect future knowledge and control, it in turn has created an infinite source of knowledge and power for itself...Kinda makes humanity really important. As far as the Perfect Sphere mystery is concerned, it attempts to explain present awareness everywhere [omniscience & omnipresence], and even physics [the omnipotence]in a metaphor.


Even though we have free will, our free will must comply with predetermined forces [physics] - that is omnipotence. If we exist in a pre-determined cosmos [which is evidently supported by physics] then the creator is still concidered omnipotent - and if its mind is like a perfect sphere, the circumference of which is nowhere and the center everywhere, that would explain omniscience and omnipresence. As it would know everything, everywhere, all of the time.


Sorry about all the separate posts. But, if neuro-biology is currect in stating that our minds and therefore actions are determined by our nature, and we are evolved from nature, would that imply that all of our actions are already determined by the cosmos anyhow? Just another viewpoint from yours truly.


Blogger Dave8 said...
If one wants to break the restriction of a Christian context; then, hypothetically speaking, a hypothetical, omnipotent God with ultimate "free will" could force themselves to be blind to the future; the entity would still hold an omniscience capability, exercising the omnipotence - but not be necessarily "apprised" of, or influencing human affairs, etc.

Of course, I am using my "imagination" to proffer this "hypothesis", and there seems to be no end to one's imagination - that's why paradoxes exist.

Now, let's put this in the Christian context.

An omnipotent God who prepared us post-transformation domains; Heaven and Hell.

The "ultimatum", is a demand forced upon us; we do not have the "freedom of will" to "escape" the ultimatum.

Thy kingdom come, thy "will" be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

When someone flips a coin and it has heads on both sides, is the outcome going to be any different on the flip - consider Heaven and Hell to be on both sides of a coin that represent the Christian God’s “will”.

Someone with infinite potential has the capacity to "form" or "create" options - not conform to the "will" of a second agent :-)


I don't think that the future even exists - it is infinite void, [if there were anything therein, the present would smash into it and everything would explode] So why then does omniscience even have anything to do with knowing exact future events? Again, if one is aware of everything, everywhere, all of the time and knows the physics of its created cosmos, then thats all thats matters concerning omniscience.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
Dave8..If one wants to break the restriction of a Christian context; then, hypothetically speaking, a hypothetical, omnipotent God with ultimate "free will" could force themselves to be blind to the future; the entity would still hold an omniscience capability, exercising the omnipotence - but not be necessarily "apprised" of, or influencing human affairs, etc.

Yes of course; agreed. However, if a "God" existed in non-personal context; if it held, simultaniously, those two attributes, it would be as useful to us, as a motorcyle is to a trout. In other words, defeating the purpose.


Blogger Dave8 said...
Boomer... :-) :-)... yes, I would agree, suppressing one's capability invites one to ponder the “intent” of a self-imposed sterility of sorts – why a hypothetical God would take the form of a trout, when they could be riding a Harley is beyond me, perhaps they like the fertility symbolism ;-)

Well, since we are using our imaginations, let's say that this hypothetical God has a self-imposed erectile dysfunction and a wooden leg, now we have a celibate God who hobbles with ultimate power ;-)


Blogger AtheistToothFairy said...
Dave8 wrote:
..let's say that this hypothetical God has a self-imposed erectile dysfunction and a wooden leg, now we have a celibate God who hobbles with ultimate power
---
Dave,

But ummm, isn't that the very kind of xtian god, the xtians have going for them these days?


ATF (Who thinks god must be a pirate, in search of worship, rather than gold)


Blogger Dave8 said...
I suppose, omnipotence suggests omniscience by default, can one be truly omnipotent by definition, and not have the capacity to don omniscience at will?

In reverse, does an imaginary God with omniscience necessarily have to be omnipotent? Not by definition, omniscience doesn't provide us enough contexts to know if such a hypothetical God is "The" Ultimate Power in a Universe. However, omniscience does exceed the capability of humanity.

If there exists an omnipotent God (who by default, can conjure omniscience at will), then we are "bound" by its "cause", whatever that cause be.

If one wants to take this further; a God who is "omniscient", sees the future... if such a God chooses to involve their self omnipotently - we are bound by its cause. If a God chooses to "not" involve their self omnipotently - we are bound by its cause.

It is the omnipotence, made operational by omniscience, and the "freedom of Ultimate will", that prevents humanity from any "free will", if... one actually believes in an omnipotent God concept.


Blogger Dave8 said...
ATF: "But ummm, isn't that the very kind of xtian god, the xtians have going for them these days?"

:-) Yes, I do believe the Christian God is some type of unmarried pirate, who is into submissive relationships.

The fact Christians believe their God concept to be omnipotent, forces humanity to be submissive... in a "submissive" relationship, one only has the "freedoms", allowed them - to include "choice".

Dave8 (who can imagine the Christian God, with a patch over one eye, and a pet believer on one shoulder :-)


Blogger Dave8 said...
Playing devil's advocate...

If a God chooses to "not" be involved with humanity or if a God chooses to be involved with humanity is likely a distinction without a difference, in the context of humanity's "free will".

The sheer "existence" of an omnipotent God concept, demands that we be "bound" to its "cause"; even if the God is Christian, and sticks its head in the cosmological sand in order to escape its nature.

Can an omnipotent God strip itself of its own omnipotence, removing "causal" dominance in the Universe, and still remain God?

Well, perhaps... if one is willing to accept a non-omnipotent entity as a God, and... believe that this Universe was "not" created by said God.

As, the Universe, would logically carry the "causal" fingerprints of said God; continuing to "bind" us to its original "causal" factors, creating an ongoing "submissive" relationship that we would still not be able to "escape" - unless we imagine humanity reaching a level of omnipotence equal to such a God concept.

If one wants to imagine a transcendent & omnipotent God; exemplifying an apathetic non-creator God concept; then we would have to ascertain whether we accept its "silence" as causal "concurrence".

In my opinion, it really doesn't matter where a person places their god concept, if such a god concept is omnipotent; it "adopts" "causal responsibility", and "causal dominance".

So, BoomSLANG... it appears you are correct; I can't imagine a logical way, that an omnipotent God, can escape causal dominance, forcing humanity to be inherently "bound" in its "freedoms" of "will", etc.

However, I do believe I could come up with a whole herd of "illogical" and "irrational" God concepts that would give humanity "free will", while claiming an omnipotent God concept ;-)

Have a great one.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
D8...So, BoomSLANG... it appears you are correct; I can't imagine a logical way, that an omnipotent God, can escape causal dominance, forcing humanity to be inherently "bound" in its "freedoms" of "will", etc.

Well, frankly D8, this whole subject has become a bit convoluted. To recap, Theists, namely Christians, believe in a deity "who" is not only "Divine", but also, presumably a personal "being"(like you and I). In other words, a "being" who can freely exercise its alleged "Free Will", or in biblegod's case, exercise its alleged "grace", "mercy", "justice", yada, yada, blah, blah, when it feels like it. Well, in effect, all I'm saying is that any being "who" is claimed to be able to do such, cannot know the set of future events; something must "give", one way, or the other. If biblegod knows the future, a priori; if it knows the entire set of future events, then in also knows how it will "act", in accordance with people's "free will"(which BTW, is an illusion, under predetermination).

To illustrate, hopefully more thoroughly, if a given mortal needs to be granted "mercy" on such and such day in the future, then biblegod knows this in advance, per its "omniscience". Thus, it must forfeit some of its alleged "free will", because it already knows the outcome; there is nothing to deliberate on, thus, deliberation is obsolete, or else it never knew the future in the first place. I hope I did a better job of illustrating it this time.

D8...However, I do believe I could come up with a whole herd of "illogical" and "irrational" God concepts that would give humanity "free will", while claiming an omnipotent God concept ;-)

Again, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but my argument doesn't concern itself with the "free will" of humanity; it deals with the philosophical conflict that's created when a personal "being", Divine, or otherwise, is claimed to have the simultanious attributes of omniscience and omnipotence.

Best,


Blogger Dave8 said...
BoomSLANG, thanks for expounding. Does the following sum up your argument?

-God is Omniscient
-Omniscience elicits predestination
-Predestination precludes autonomy
-Autonomy elicits freedom
-Freedom elicits power
-Therefore, an Omniscient God precludes Autonomous Power (Omnipotence)

Omniscience creates a paradoxical conflict with Omnipotence.

Another old paradox comes to mind; "Could God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it?"

I followed the path of causality, which elicits another paradox of sorts. Thanks for the refreshing dialogue.

Regards,
D8


Blogger boomSLANG said...
D8...Does the following sum up your argument?

-God is Omniscient
-Omniscience elicits predestination
-Predestination precludes autonomy
-Autonomy elicits freedom
-Freedom elicits power
-Therefore, an Omniscient God precludes Autonomous Power (Omnipotence)


Yeah, that about sums it up.

See ya around.