.: posted 3/24/2008 ::: by webmdave :::   

 The AntiChristian wrote:

Jacolyn,
Yeah, it seems as though this is the real power behind Christianity - the threat of Hell.

Everytime I debate a Christian, I get the upper hand through logic and reasoning (Christianity is so illogical, a monkey could outdebate a Christian), and the Christian can only wind up with, "Well, you're going to Hell!"

Where would Christianity be if there were no threat of eternal torment? There would really be no reason for it, would there?

Even after leaving Christianity and becoming an atheist for 28 years, there's still a little gnawing in the back of my mind that says, "What if it's true?"

Intellectually, I know that there is no God, Jesus, Heaven, or Hell, and there is absolutely no chance that I would ever go back to that terrible religion called Christianity. However, that fear of Hell was brainwashed into me as a child and I just can't shake it.

Christianity is evil and the people who perpetuate it should be treated with contempt.

I hate Christianity.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 CarlK wrote:

I agree that there is real power in a fear of hell, but I wonder if it's not a denominational thing, or something. At least it's not something I experienced. Hell always seemed to me like an awfully unlikely thing to be as described.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 CarlK wrote:

I agree that there is real power in a fear of hell, but I wonder if it's not a denominational thing, or something. At least it's not something I experienced. Hell always seemed to me like an awfully unlikely thing to be as described.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 Steven Bently wrote:

Yeah, god says love me or go to hell. Threats are what Christianity is all about, and using threats to raise money.

Ever notice how the collection plate is passed around before the preacher begins, he makes damn sure he gets paid before he begins.

Brazen public robbery behind xtianity.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

"People often say to me, ‘If God loves people, how can he send them to hell?’" His response was, "God sends people to hell BEACAUSE He loves us so much!"

Yeah, that's a large part of it. It's been my impression that there is a lot of abuse in fundamentalist families, although it's disguised as "loving discipline". There must be many dult survivors of child abuse in those circles; the reasoning process is the same - "Daddy doesn't want to hurt me. He has no choice. He has to do it, because I'm so bad." This is the logic of abuse.

I agree with those of you who say that conservative evangelical Christianity is a form of child abuse. It ought to be recognized as such, and should no longer be tolerated.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 truckvan wrote:

Jacolyn,
I had very similar experiences growing up in the church. One of my formative memories of "church" was my mother complaining about the pastor at our Reformed church. He was sermonizing about how all the children in Africa who die without Christ are burning in hell. How's that for an introduction to a loving god. Needless to say we switched churches (to Lutheran) but the horrific memory still lingered. While at that Lutheran church during confirmation classes, the minister tried to put the fear of hell in us by describing all the misery we would encounter if we didn't repent, etc. Many years later after getting married and having my own children, hell came back to haunt me again, this time back at a Reformed church. I was reciting a creed from the Heidelberg Catechism about how we know we're saved because of some assurance the holy spirit gives us. Well, I didn't have the "feeling" and I was struck again by fear. Like you, I kept wondering, "Is this person going to hell? What about me? What about my children? It was absolutely awful. I couldn't sleep or function because I was always worried or checking my behavior against how god wanted me to live. Eventually, I needed to see a doctor for anxiety medication! So yeah, I've had similar experiences. Good luck to you in your battle for sanity!

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Jacolyn,
The doctrine of hell is so very insane. I think that this doctrine is what will be the ultimate undoing of 'old-school' christianity.
The bad news is; Some preachers (i.e; Carlton Pearson, Jehovahs' Witnesses)) have found a way around belief in hell. My fear is that this will ensnare a new variety of uncritical thinkers.
I know that there are christians out there who will state "Well, I don't believe that Hell is scriptural". or "Jesus' death will bring ALL mankind to heaven".
"Salad-bar" Christianity (pick what you like) will always be with us. Keep a sharp eye out for the arguments that will attempt to pull you back into the web of confusion.
It took some of us years to undo the fear that had been rooted into my mind. It wasn't easy but eventually I achieved a freedom that cannot even compare with the prison of "faith".
THANKS for your story. All the best to you and your future in reality!

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 Pull The Other One! wrote:

You're certainly not the only one, Jacolyn.

I think that a lot of Christians hate the idea of hell, and don't really accept the attempted justifications for it. They know it's a disgraceful concept, but it's a integral part of the whole Bible package, and although many have tried, there's really no getting round it.

Of course, there are also sadists who actually relish the idea. I'm sure that we've all met some of those bastards.

Going back to the first group. I remember as a young Christian when a visiting preacher gave us one of those sermons along the lines of: Imagine meeting non-christian friends and family on the Day of Judgement, and them saying to you 'Why didn't you warn me?'

The same evening I overheard my mother phoning my non-christian uncle, something she didn't usually do at that particular time of the week. I could hear the nervousness in her voice, and I knew why she was phoning him.

I remember listening in, wondering how she would say it, but in the end she didn't go through with it. She just couldn't bring herself to do it.

I know that this wasn't due to a lack of courage. It was simply that as a decent person she knew in her heart, in that part that is never really fooled, that it's a despicable thing to say.

Who knows, maybe some other people in the congregation that day did go through with it, because only Christianity can make good people go against their hearts like that.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 jimearl wrote:

The fear of hell left me when I discovered that the bible was wrong on so many things. It was with relief that I let go of that fallacy.

I agree that without the fear of hell, many religions would cease to exist. However, many believers don't believe in a literal hell but they still believe in a god and much of the bible.

I ain't afraid of no gods or the places invented by cretins to strike fear in human beings.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

I think that a lot of Christians hate the idea of hell, and don't really accept the attempted justifications for it. They know it's a disgraceful concept, but it's a integral part of the whole Bible package, and although many have tried, there's really no getting round it.

Of course, there are also sadists who actually relish the idea. I'm sure that we've all met some of those bastards.


I don't know; I'm not convinced that most Christians hate the idea. I think the "sadists" may be more numerous than many would care to admit.

And, of course, there is a vast body in between who don't find the concept of hell attractive, but aren't that upset about it, either - "It's God's will, and it isn't our place to tell him how to run his creation." They're utterly willing to abandon billions of human beings for all of eternity so that they can have the security blanket for a few brief decades while here. I find this despicable.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 leotracks wrote:

Congratulation to you, Jacolyn, for finding your own way out of the turmoil and psychological abuses christianity put you through.

The bible is vague on the subject of hell (as it is vague in many areas), and yet so many people seem to know exactly what hell entails. Many of the details about hell come from poets like Milton and Dante, just like the popular notion of witches comes from Shakespeare. But it is all the same thing; once an idea becomes common, it is no longer questioned.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 xrayman wrote:

The AntiChristian said,

"(Christianity is so illogical, a monkey could outdebate a Christian)"

Very Funny yet true. The fact is that most Christians don't even realize it until someone with an ounce of objectivity asks them a few choice questions. Since my sepatration from God belief I know I have thrown so many bugs up my Christian friends' asses with logic that they have never heard.

Great Letter Jacolyn,

I guess I really never feared Hell all that much. I was raised by parents who believed in that all loving God who sends all kind folks to Heaven. I always thought Hell was reserved for those who really deserved if like Hitler or Ted Bundy, yet then again I had a hint of doubt about those guys because they were obviously crazy. Could they help it?

I am glad you have removed yourself from the irrational fear of Hell. Just keep coming here and reinforcing your beliefs so you never slide back.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 the-walruss wrote:

Fear of hell is not the basis of Christianity, but it's what makes Christian ideas so dangerous.

Religion is a construct that gives us (false) hope and a sense of purpose (though I would argue that a fake purpose is no purpose at all). That's why people are so willing to believe that there is a God and an afterlife.

However, the idea of hell is what converts it into a powerful social and political tool which can be exploited by those in power. All of the truly negative things about christianity listed on this site come from that very fear. Every christian who comes on here is attempting to save us from hellfire.

Without hell, christianity forces us to waste our lives on a false vision. With hell, it forces us into the bondage of whoever's smart enough to exploit it.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 Evelyn wrote:

The fear of hell is what kept me in church long after I started having doubts. Whenever I wandered away, I came back because I didn't want to go to hell. I finally called my state of mind, "faith at gunpoint". That's no way to live! So, three years ago, I said, enough, and acknowledged to myself that I wasn't a xian any more.

The fear of hell is a strong one. There have been several threads in the forums about coping with it.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 chuckyjesus wrote:

I've never really understood the whole "Assembly of God" thing...I mean -- doesn't he come already assembled?

I bet the instructions are badly translated from Japanese too....

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

I guess every one that commented similarly as the author feels that even child rapists should not go to jail either.

The man that just raped your grandmother and then kills her then goes into the other room to rape your 2 year old should be just set free, right?

Evil deserves punishment it is that simple. If you break God's law you are a law breaker and the penalty is death, get used to it. Not everyone in jail right now feels they deserve it and they all claim that they are innocent. God will punish the wicked plain and simple and I thank the lord for that.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 ExFundie wrote:

The love and empathy you seem to have for your fellow man is something you'd be hard-pressed to find in the Christian world. FUCK those Mother FUCKERS!!!

yes... I have issues.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 ExFundie wrote:

This post has been removed by the author.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 The AntiChristian wrote:

dogeatdogblack,
But that's not what Christianity teaches. "You are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast." Did I quote that properly?

According to Christianity, God only cares whether you believe that Jesus died for your sins.

Yeah, even the guy who raped and killed your grandmother then goes after your two year old can receive God's grace and go to Heaven.

And the average guy who has never committed a heinous crime will be sent to Hell for all eternity for not believing.

Cool religion, eh?

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 Stephen C wrote:

To 'dogeatdogblechh',
Get a grip man. Rabid foamings like yours are mostly the reason for the world's being in a most difficult state right now. You know that, but you can't help loving it. And, because of that perverted love, you KNOW in your heart that you have failed to listen to your god, and failed to be whatever good thing your belief system describes. So, you attempt to drown out your bitter self-knowledge with self-righteous, bullying opinion. Hmmm, dogeatdog = dogshit.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 Lance wrote:

I'm glad dogeatdogblack showed up, since this is the same response I got from a Christian friend of mine.

Out of one side of their mouth they say hell is for bad people, but out of the other side they say hell is for non-believers. But there are bad believers, and good non-believers, so which is it?

The antichristian sums it up well they say "And the average guy who has never committed a heinous crime will be sent to Hell for all eternity for not believing."

It seems the only crime that really deserves the eternal punishment of hell is thinking for yourself.

-- Lance

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 hoosier wrote:

Ok, even with a rapist or someone like hitler, their victims pain will still at least someday end when they die, with hell we are talking about eternal torment. There is no crime man can commit than can justify that level of punishment. Its overkill and there is no getting around that. I cannot associate myself with any god that condones or engages in hellish eternal torment of this kind for any reason, especially for simply not adhering to the "correct" religion. Such behavior is barbaric and fiendish and a being engaging in this behavior is not worth following. That is why many of us are irrevocably ex-christian.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 Lance wrote:

One more comment for dodeatdogblack. My sister was raped when she was 15 years old, but as pissed as that makes me, I would not send that asshole to eternal torment in hell. We are talking forever here. After a billion years of torment his pain is just getting started. That seems more than a bit excessive to me.

I'd rather forgive him than inflict hell on him. It seems I have a lot more grace and forgiveness than that imaginary asshole of a god you have.

-Lance

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

First of all, Jesus mediates only for the saved. This is why it is important for people to become Christians - so they can have Jesus Christ as their advocate, before the Father, on the Day of Judgment. The Old Covenant could not save us (otherwise we would not need the New Covenant), and it gave way to the New. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and since He is God in flesh, we have the Perfect Mediator. Therefore, we can rest assured that our Lord will always live to intercede for us (Heb. 7:25), and that we are eternally secure in Him.

posted: March 24, 2008 EST  

 the-walruss wrote:

Dogeatdogblack,

I hear this "We deserve it argument" over and over again, and it doesn't hold water.

Punishment serves 3 purposes:

1) To deter, or to keep others from committing the act being punished.

2) To remove threats to society so that they do not put others in danger.

3) To rehabilitate, or change destructive behaviors.

Hell does none of these things.

It does not deter us from sinning because, according to your dogma, we are all sinners regardless of how well we live. We're born that way, so we can't be detered from sin.

It does remove us from heaven, but annihilation would do that just as well, and without the needless suffering.

It does not rehabilitate. Hell is eternal, no rehabilitation is possible.


So the only reason we are being punished is because God hates us. But one of the very tenets of Christianity is that God loves all people.

But we "deserve" to be punished with no chance of rehabilitation. Let's pretend for a moment that I concede that a person who is truly evil deserves to be tortured for eternity in hell.

What is our crime? Is it existing? Because if so blame our Almighty Creator, not us. Is it our sinful nature? Because if so blame our Almighty Creator, not us.

Christianity claims that God does not force any nature upon us. But it also claims that humans are naturally evil. This, above all, is a contradiction. We cannot be born with a nature that our Creator does not bestow on us... unless there's no God, and that would be unthinkable. If all human beings will inevitably sin, then we have no choice in committing the crime we will be punished for.

My greatest sins according to the bible are as follows:
1) Pre-marital sex with a single partner
2) Impure thoughts about others
3) Disrespect of my parents.
4) False Witness by lying.
5) Blasphemy

Were you a judge, would you sentence anybody to jail time of five years for these actions? Would you sentence them to five years of intense torture for these actions?

I should hope not.

But here, you argue that I deserve more than five years of intense torture. You argue that I deserve an eternity of the most horrendous torment imaginable without even a moment of relief.

I have no right to face my accuser or to present evidence. I have no right to even appear in a courtroom until my sentence has already been decided. My judge (and your God of Infinite Mercy) has not even had the common decency to tell me from his own mouth that these are the punishments I will face.

A christian rapist who repents of his crime is treated humanely in a jail cell for 70 years. I, the blasphemer, the fornicator, who has never seriously harmed another human being and has always attempted in all things to treat life and the property of others with respect and dignity will be treated like the worst mass murderer forever.

Ask yourself, truly ask yourself...
does that seem fair?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

To Dogeatdogblack (and any other legalists who might like to make excuses for their torturer-god):

In My opinion, no crime is deserving of eternal punishment. None. No being that I can imagine (including our mythical auto-deicidal friend Biblegod) is capable of committing an action that would justify unrelenting torture for eternity.

And if someone was, in fact, capable of and actively planning to commit such an action, one would hope that an omniscient, omnipotent deity would have the good sense to stop the crime before untold innocents got hurt.

I just finished reading Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion earlier this evening, and in the chapter "Childhood, Abuse and the Escape from Religion" (page 361 of the paperback edition) I found this food for thought:

"If hell were plausible, it would only have to be moderately unpleasant in order to deter. Given that it is so unlikely to be true, it has to be advertised as very very scary indeed, to balance its implausibility and retain some deterrence value."

It is true that many crimes go unpunished on earth, and numerous people go to their graves unpunished and often undiscovered.

Postulating a "Let's get even with all the bad guys" afterlife does not actually render 'justice' of any sort. The concept of Hell pollutes the human psyche with primitive bloodlust and revenge fantasies, traumatizes small children, and paints a very poor picture indeed of the ethics of a supposedly "loving" god.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

Just as there were three offices held by people in Israel; prophet, priest and king, so too does Jesus hold the same three offices. In Israel, the prophet spoke the words of God to the people, the priest offered the sacrifices to God on behalf of the people, and the king ruled over the people, as God's representative. The three offices held in Israel foreshadowed the three offices held by Jesus.

Because Jesus holds the three offices of Prophet, Priest, and King, we can more fully see the scope of His perfection. We see that Jesus reveals God to us, intercedes for us, and rules over us. He has provided all that we need before the Father, so that we might eternally dwell in safety with Him. Jesus has done it all, and because of Him, we can have rest.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Lance wrote:

dogeatdogblack said:

"First of all, Jesus mediates only for the saved. This is why it is important for people to become Christians - so they can have Jesus Christ as their advocate, before the Father, on the Day of Judgment.

Oh, now I get it. Jesus loves me, but his dad thinks I'm a shit. But wait, aren't Jesus and his dad the same dude? Now you have me confused.

-Lance

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 hoosier wrote:

Look dogeat, none of us here are going to follow jesus again, hell is just an insane concept. Nobody belongs there, and I will not follow any religion or god that espouses such a thing, no matter how much "love" and "salvation" they promise. Beside that, how could you ever be happy in heaven knowing that your loved are roasting for all time while you live it up?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Lance wrote:

Hey dogeatdog, please check out Hebrews 6:4.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."


There, your own bible tells you that it is impossible for you to convince us to come back to you delusional beliefs, as we are ex-christians here. Even though Jesus in god and all, he still gets his feeling hurt when we subject him to public disgrace, so he is not going to let us back in now matter how wonderfully illogical your arguments are.

I now give you permission to go away and let us go in peace to your imaginary hell.

Feel free to stay in the very real present day hell of you own mind, but I'm sure everyone here wishes you get to escape some day.

Good luck.

-Lance

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Lance wrote:

Oops, three typo's in one paragraph. Let me try that again:

There, your own bible tells you that it is impossible for you to convince us to come back to your delusional beliefs, as we are ex-christians here. Even though Jesus is god and all, he still gets his feeling hurt when we subject him to public disgrace, so he is not going to let us back in no matter how wonderfully illogical your arguments are.

Peace.

-Lance

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Jackie wrote:

Thanks everyone for your great responses to my letter! Very interesting indeed!!

To: "Pull The Other One" :

Regarding your comment: "I remember as a young Christian when a visiting preacher gave us one of those sermons along the lines of: Imagine meeting non-christian friends and family on the Day of Judgement, and them saying to you 'Why didn't you warn me?'"
I remember listening to sermons like that and feeling so guilty, because I could never bring myself to actually tell my non-christian friends and family that they would go to hell if they didnt repent! Glad I dont have to deal with that guilt anymore!

To: "dogeatdogblack"
Your argument is not logical. As others have so eloquently pointed out. A rapist and killer will get a just punishment... several years in jail, he might even get out before he dies and have a chance to live... a person like myself, whose worst "sin" is perhaps telling a lie or reacting in anger.....deserves an ETERNITY of torment? Is that a just punishment? The bible does say that God is a just God.... Doesn't make sense. Quoting bible verses to us wont work cos we are all ex-christians, we already know those bible verses. Can you answer honestly, In your honest opinion, is anyone on the planet, even Hitler and Ted, deserving of eternal torment?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 The AntiChristian wrote:

This post has been removed by the author.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 The AntiChristian wrote:

Dear The-walruss,

While we're comparing notes ...

1.Pre-marital sex with multiple partners

2.Impure thoughts about my sisters-in-law (Yeah, both of them.) and my wife's friends. (Looking at the menu doesn't mean I'm going to order anything!)

3.Post-marital sex with ...(Oooops! Honey! You're not reading this, are you! No, no, never! Really!)

4.Keeping a vast collection of Japanese lesbo porn.

5. Disrespecting my parents? (Hmm, I lived with them until my late twenties. Rent is horrendous in my hometown.)

6.Drinking scotch until the number of people in the room doubled.

7.I told my wife that I was working late when I actually went to the sauna once ... okay, twice ...alright, maybe three times.

8. I told the Holy Spirit to fuck off when I was 19, and he did.

Come to think of it, maybe I should go to Hell :(

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 sconnor wrote:

Does anyone else get the visual, that dogeatdogblack, is sitting at his computer, naked, swaying back and forth, with wide, woebegone, crazy, eyes, as he flogs himself?

Listen here dog, If it is so damned important to become a christian and have Jesus as your advocate so you can gain entrance to the eternal bliss of funky-town and avoid the eternal torments of fire and gnashing teeth in hell, then your god is doing a shitty, fucking job of getting his message across. The worlds population -- at this point in time -- is only 30% christian while the other 70% of the world are other religions or non-religious and out of the 30% of christians, only a minority have the same delusional, fucked up ideas that you do.

So either your god has fucked up and has done a shitty job getting the "good news" to everyone, equally and he doesn't give a shit about the other 70% ( more like 85%-90%, considering the differing christian views) of his earthly children, that he created, just so he can sadistically torture them for an eternity.....
..... or you are just a delusional, shit-brained, dumb-assed, christian.

Wow, you must be talented, if you can flog and type at the same time.

--S.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Hells Bells wrote:

Judgement and Justice:

Not all people in jail think they're innocent. Not all criminals get caught. Some criminals get caught but then the prosecution fails. All countries have an imperfect criminal justice system, based on a set of ideals that everyone within it strives to attain.

ATF stated what my view of Christianity was - if Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot or Hitler accepted Jesus Christ as Lord in their dying breath then that is sufficient for them to enter heaven. Jesus then atones for their (multiple heinous) sins in front of a judgemental Father God. If my grandmother didn't confess Jesus as Lord, then she is punished for eternity - and I would struggle to name any heinous sin that she committed.

The key "sin" is therefore actually unbelief - you are punished for eternity simply because you don't believe, yet you are not given any evidence to turn unbelief into belief. Now, how on earth is that justice?

And yet Islam makes the same claim - if you don't believe in Allah you are condemned for eternity - and God (Yahweh) is deemed to be different from Allah. I think one interpretation may be that dogeatdog will be in the Christian heaven but in the Muslim hell. Another interpretation is that it's all made up, dude.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 THE ACE wrote:

I just don't believe it. As long
as ExChristian has been on the web,these pathetic Bible-beaters still don't get it. They just can't
get it through their brainwashed
heads ALL THEY ARE DOING IS THE SAME THING ALL OF US USED TO DO.
The same tired religious cliches,
the same ancient Bible verses that
prove nothing except somone with
time on their hands wrote them down.

One more time, dogeatdog, or whatever your name is. WE HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AND GREW SICKENED WITH IT. Why is that so
hard to understand?

I never thought it took a great
deal of intelligence to be a
fundamentalist. Posts like his
pretty much confirm that.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 KCinBAMA wrote:

The GOOD news of Atheism: Hell does NOT exist. Your are NOT guilty of being born into sin. You were innocent all along, and wrongfully accused.

The BAD news of Atheism: No afterlife. The life you got is the only one you have, you are responsible to use it wisely.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 clair wrote:

Yes, I remember when my second child was born and three months later my mother reminded me of the importance of baptism, "because what if something happened and then you know where the baby would go!"
I guess she meant actual HELL, not purgatory, she is Lutheran not Catholic. The scales were falling from my eyes already, about the whole bullshitting mess, but after a few years I can say that the threat of my baby going to hell because I didn't hurry up and take him immediately to church and promise god that I would continue the indoctrination for the next generation, really helped me. Helped me to figuratively vomit out every bit of nonsense and silly bible rules ever forced down my throat in the first place. The horrid, rancid pile of puke is in the coat closet just inside the church, inside a mop bucket. I knew they would want me to save it to use in the next 29 years of sermons.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

DEDB: "First of all, Jesus mediates only for the saved."

Actually, if this fictional character Jesus is omniscient/God, then the character didn't mediate for anyone. The character already knows the outcome of everyone's saved or unsaved life. Good thing the character Jesus is fictional.

DEDB: "This is why it is important for people to become Christians - so they can have Jesus Christ as their advocate, before the Father, on the Day of Judgment."

Right and this is why Christians need to become Muslims, before the day of judgment and their God.

DEDB: "The Old Covenant could not save us (otherwise we would not need the New Covenant), and it gave way to the New."

A good argument that the Christian God's character isn't omniscient, perhaps senile.

DEDB: "Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and since He is God in flesh, we have the Perfect Mediator."

Oh, back to the omniscient character Jesus again, the Christian roller-coaster ride to salvation; our God is omniscient, our God isn't omniscient, repeat.

DEDB: "Therefore, we can rest assured that our Lord will always live to intercede for us (Heb. 7:25), and that we are eternally secure in Him."

Therefore, I conclude, you have no clue about your fictional character's intentions, until someone else writes another chapter in the Christian Bible, or makes edits to it, like they did for hundreds of years after the original was pieced together.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

I guess I need to just leave it up to God then. Remember it starts with repentance (as you know) We must be sorry first for what we have done wrong before the healing(rebirth) can begin. Kind of like an alcoholic, you are all still in denial.

Also keep in mind even God repents and he will repent that he ever made any of you and cherish the fact that you all understand His plan for salvation.

"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)

In fact, there are a number of Scriptures that speak of God repenting. For example, in the days before the great Flood, "it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth" (Genesis 6:6). In the same chapter containing our text, God said: "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments" (1 Samuel 15:11). Yet the Scriptures plainly teach that God changes not. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" (Numbers 23:19). Bible critics have made much of this apparent "contradiction" in the Bible.

There is no contradiction, of course. The words translated "repent" in both Old and New Testaments are used of actions which indicate outwardly that a "change of mind" has occurred inwardly. It is precisely because God does not repent concerning evil, that His actions will change toward man when man truly repents (this human "repentance" can go either way; changing from good to evil, or vice versa), and God will respond accordingly, since He cannot change His own mind toward evil.

Thus, He said concerning national repentance: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them" (Jeremiah 18:8). That is, if the nation truly repents, then God will change His own projected course of action. He seems outwardly to "repent," specifically because He cannot repent in His inward attitude toward good and evil.

God has greatly blessed America in the past, but America’s people have drastically changed in recent years. Can the time be long coming when God must say: "It repenteth me that I have so favored this apostate nation?" HMM

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

he will repent that he "regrets" ever made any of you

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

Honestly, half the time I can't even understand what it is that Christians are trying to say.

Listen, guys, a word of advice - if you're going to attempt to convert people, it would behoove you to at least study the fucking ENGLISH LANGUAGE!

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 the-walruss wrote:

Now that always confused me.

If God is omnipotent and can see the future, how exactly can he change his mind when said future comes into being?

If he knew that people were going to be evil to begin with, then how did he repent of ever making them? He ALWAYS knew. If he knew the flood was coming, and that he would regret making all these people who were so terribly evil, then why make them to start out with? HE ALREADY KNEW that they would turn out that evil.

In fact, if he created the tree of knowledge, stuck it in the garden, created Eve with natural curiousity and a desire to eat the fruit, and knew all along that the serpent would tempt her and she would give in, whose fault is it exactly that she ate the fruit?

It's certainly not the serpent's fault, he was just doing what he naturally did. It's certainly not Eve's fault. She was just reacting in the way she would naturally react. It would be the fault of their natures... which God created.

Come on now, this isn't a hard one to figure out, just once, I'm begging of you, use your head. An all knowing God can have no regrets, an all knowing God saw it coming.

Still hopeful that there's a working mind under that shell of irrationality,

The Walruss

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

Still hopeful that there's a working mind under that shell of irrationality,

You're asking for an awful lot, walruss. Their minds gave out a long time ago, and the warranties have expired.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

DeDB: "guess I need to just leave it up to God then."

Yes, you do that. Because the idiotic crap you're spewing is highly unlikely to lure even one of us back into the sheep pen.

"Kind of like an alcoholic, you are all still in denial."

Um, *you're* the one who believes in invisible punishing gods, talking snakes and zombie godkids. We got on the wagon long ago, and drove it right out of town.

"Also keep in mind even God repents and he will repent that he ever made any of you..."

Ah, speaking for gods, now, are you?

"He seems outwardly to 'repent,' specifically because He cannot repent in His inward attitude toward good and evil."

And reading gods' minds. This gets better and better.

"God has greatly blessed America..."

How fucking dare you belittle the efforts of the millions of fine men and women who built America! Your god blessed nothing, because it never existed.

You're not the droid we're looking for. Go away.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

Christian doggy said, "It is precisely because God does not repent concerning evil..."

Ah yes, EVIL.

I wonder, what was evil about eating a peice of fruit? That's the "evil" that got us all in this mess, right? It was some naked hoe wrapping her lips around some damned fruit and then sticking it in her nudist boy friend’s mouth, right?

Being naked, filthy, and ignorant isn't a sin, but eating a piece of fruit -- that's radically evil!

Basically, according to Xtianity, evil is disobeying the supposed commands of GOD. If GOD commands killing, raping, pillaging and destroying, then EVIL is refusing to do those things. If GOD commands dogmatic belief in a bunch of silly myths and/or slavering adherence to a big set of contradictory religious doctrines, then EVIL is simply disbelief.

God can't repent of EVIL because whatever HE does is good (no matter what that might be) and electing to not follow along with even a single one of HIS commands, a person is labeled as EVIL.

To consider: If EVIL is evil regardless of whether GOD commands it, God is irrelevant to the discussion as even HE answers to some standard outside of HIMSELF. If, however, disobedience to the arbitrary commands of GOD is all that defines EVIL, then good and evil have no real meaning whatsoever.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Nina wrote:

Dogeatdog
You said in the first post that death is the punishment for sinning. I think you meant hell. We all die, good and bad.
OOPS - kind of makes your whole point stupid!
Nina

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 leotracks wrote:

I think it is clear that people like dogshit and others are just mean-spirited sadistic assholes who get off on the idea of eternal torment for other people. They are small, abusive little men who don't have the guts or strength to accomplish anything on their own, and their impotence makes them crave the vicarious joy of inflicting pain.

Yes, I have issues as well.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

godeatgod...I guess I need to just leave it["it"..i.e..insert anything at all] up to God then.

Hey there, little man,

Aside from committing an existential fallacy, the philosophy of "leaving" anything to an "omniscient" being is utterly non-sensical and redundant, even if such a being existed. That's right, there's no sense, whatsoever, in "leaving" any decision to a being who has already determined all of its future decisions/choices. And besides, even if your biblegod had "free will", your premise is still circular, i.e.. "win/win". After all, the Christian leaves a decision up to "God", and if the outcome is "good", it's a "miracle intervention", and if the outcome is "bad", it was part of "God's plan". The inventers of the Christian biblegod merely created a religious figurehead whom they can praise in literally any situation.

godeatgod...Remember it starts with repentance (as you know)

No; it starts with evidence(as you evidently don't know) 'Got any?

godeatgod...We must be sorry first for what we have done wrong before the healing(rebirth) can begin.

You seem to be mindlessly repeating what you've been taught(imagine that). But tell me, have you ever actually examined these biblical philosophies of yours? Honestly now, should we hold you and your family members responsible because Hitler slaughtered Jews? Or would you see that idea as an insanely absurd injustice? I'm going to go out on a limb, and say the latter, and if so, then great, because then you have very accurate idea of what we think of your ridiculous little talking-snake-in-the-garden-convinced-some-ignorant-couple-to-eat-fruit-and-now-we-are-all-responsible, parable. Simply put: Bull$h*t.

godeatgod...Also keep in mind even God repents and he will repent that he ever made any of you and cherish the fact that you all understand His plan for salvation.

Um, if your biblegod "repented" that he ever made us... why, then, didn't it simply scrap "Adam & Eve" on the spot, and start over? That sounds a little more logical than being all pissed-off and distraught that two people did something against its wishes, but yet, letting them multiply into many people, and then drowning the whole lot of them.

If you burn a batch of cookies, do you start over?..or do you throw six more dozen cookies in the oven until those burn too, before you start over? In other words, I would expect the Creator of the Universe to have some common sense.....but evidently, I guess you don't hold "Him" to that standard, do you?(rhetorically asked)

godeatgod...There is no contradiction, of course. The words translated "repent" in both Old and New Testaments are used of actions which indicate outwardly that a "change of mind" has occurred inwardly.

Lol! What a remarkable display of weasle-wording...i.e..what blantant display of equivocation, in an attempt to make something illogical sound logical.

It's really simple: If your biblegod has the "free will" to reconsider; to rethink; to reevaluate; to feel regret concerning choices it made, then said being is NOT "UNchanging". You cannot have it both ways, Christian.

godeatgod...God has greatly blessed America in the past, but America’s people have drastically changed in recent years.

If "God has greatly blessed" us, but yet, you feel that America is not doing the "Will of God", then God's "blessings" must be impotent against our "free will"....thus, it is a complete and utter waste of time to say "God bless America" from this point forward. It is likewise pointless to "pray".

Either the "will of man" takes precedence, or the "Will of god" takes precedence. Either way, "Christianity" loses.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Stephen C wrote:

Good morning everybody,

Hey, it occurs to me that whenever we actually respond to the garbled nonsense posted by rut-minded 'dogeedog', we're jumping through the needy hoops that his/her pious narcissist ego demands.
ANY attention will do.
Just as he/she planned.
Then he/she can, comfort and stroke themselves to smug satisfaction with the convinction that they are justly righteous, special, chosen, misunderstood, courageous, selfless and, the big prize, martyred.
God knows, they tried!
It's such shamelessly transparent, wanky behaviour.
Embarassing really.
Blecchhh...

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

boomSLANG: "No; it starts with evidence(as you evidently don't know) 'Got any?"

Deny it all you want but Jesus does exist and He is God and he did what he did to save our souls. The Bible itself is a extremely reliable and historical record of events and years later it was backed up with documents saying the same things called the Dead sea scrolls, but other documents mentioned Jesus also.

Example: Josephus, the famed Jewish historian, lived from A.D. 37 to 95. He seems to record the death and resurrection of Jesus as a fact. In Vol. II, Book XVIII, Chap. III, page 3 of his Jewish Antiquities, he wrote: “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man: for He was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those that loved Him at the first did not forsake Him; for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him, are not extinct at this day.”

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Jim Arvo wrote:

This post has been removed by the author.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Jim Arvo wrote:

Who would like the honor of explaining to dogeatdogblack why the Josephus passage is almost certainly a late (4th century) interpolation?

In fact, dogeatdogblack, you could save us all a little time if you just Google the words "Josephus interpolation", and spend a few hours reading. Let us know when you've done that and we'll discuss it, okay?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Jim Arvo wrote:

dogeatdogblack said "Deny it all you want but Jesus does exist and He is God..."

Now, I realize that BoomSLANG's question was convoluted and extremely difficult to understand, so please allow me to restate it more simply: Got any evidence to back that up?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 xrayman wrote:

Jim Arvo,

WTFHYB
Where the fuck have you been?

Your words of wisdom have been few and far between as of late.

Here is a basic question I have about Jesus. Is he a guy who turns the other cheek? Or is he an eye for an eye guy? He can't be both and if he is the turn the other cheek guy, then no one would be in Hell would they?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 the-walruss wrote:

Wow, your "evidence" is a passage by a scholar whose accuracy is greatly suspect, who couldn't even get his own geneology straight, and whose works were in the hands of the church for hundreds of years before we ever read them.

Once again, open your brain, examine the "facts" that you're told instead of parroting them here, and maybe you can actually create a dialogue.

Historical texts (unless there were a great number of them with few or no mistakes at all, and which had NOT been passed down through a church which wielded great political power) cannot make up for the gaping holes in logic that christianity leaves us. First, read the Bible. Look at the geneologies. They don't work out and they don't match up.

Then compare the gospels. Once again, you'll find a lot of little contradictions (Judas' death for instance).

Now, ask yourself which is more likely. The idea that the Word of God, a document that is supposed to be completely infallable, has constant and continuing mistakes, or the idea that maybe your friend's work was tampered with.

Then ask Jesus which makes sense, and wait until you hear a real voice explain it to you.

I'm sure you'll find a way to rationalize all of this away, since I haven't "proven" anything. But maybe instead of rationalizing, you could actually think about it for a moment, actually consider what I'm saying, and decide for yourself which is more probable.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

DEDB, while you attempt to gather some evidence; let's get past the bible as a potential exhibit, at the onset - using simple logic.

If the Christian God character is omniscient and knows everything that has, is, and will ever be... then what "purpose" does the bible serve?

Let's be clear. An omniscient God already knows if you are saved or not, and what your "end-state" will be upon death; the sheer fact that such an entity would know this, "prevents" you from doing anything that would "change" your destiny.

So, if you concede your God character to "Not" be "Omniscient", then I'd be willing to "inspect" your bible for deitical authenticity.

If you conceded your God character to be "Omniscient", then I would prefer evidence of the God that you speak of; not the sterile book you refer to.

Take a pick.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Refractor wrote:

Question was: "He can't be both and if he is the turn the other cheek guy, then no one would be in Hell would they?"

Your time on earth is a time of mercy. Those that love Him know the truth about our eternal existence and knowing this truth, we all endeavor to glorify God with acts of love and of mercy. We are taught to turn the other cheek by our Lord because our sacrifices, our acts of faith & love, are gifts that we give to Him. We give them because we want to be like Him in the way we love and are merciful. These acts of faith that we give to the Lord He accepts and if it’s God's will, He returns these gifts to us in the way of graces. Graces that may cause the conversion of the one that hurt us or the conversion of others.

The greatest miracle of all is the turning of one's heart towards God (ie. a conversion). A conversion is possible for everyone if they admit of their guilt and accept the words of Jesus as being the truth.

In the end, once we die, the concept of eternity will be obvious to us and we will all realize that this new dimension, the spiritual dimension, is the real dimension. Our choices in this life are gravely important as they will decide our eternal destination.

To reject Jesus, the Son of God, your entire life will likely leave you in a place far removed from God. To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love. If we had a glimpse of what true darkness is like, we'd realize that we'd never ever wish Hell on anyone. Not even Hitler.

Your time of mercy is now, in this life, and your choice will be eternal. God entered time and space to turn the other cheek as a sacrifice that atones for your sins and my sins. God, in eternity, does not turn the other cheek again. To reject Christ until the end will mean that you are left with His justice. As great is His mercy, also great is His justice.

The beauty for those of us that love Jesus, is that we trust Him completely and don't worry ourselves with mysteries that are contrary to our natural minds. Many of you will take the prideful stance to reject Him because of the doctrine of Hell. Which is so terribly sad because you actually don’t need to go to Hell if you simply accept Him?

If you are not able to acknowledge your sins because your heart is filled with various emotions that block this capacity, I suggest you take a leap of faith. I suggest you call out to the Lord for help with sincerity and I assure you, you’ll receive it. Call out His name, Jesus Christ, with your lips and never doubt. God, the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon.

God bless.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

Refractor, care to help out DEDB?

We are all just seeking simple answers to support your emotional claims that lack anything credible beyond your opinion.

So, can you attempt to gather some evidence for your comments?

Let's get past the bible as a potential exhibit, at the onset - using simple logic.

If the Christian God character is omniscient and knows everything that has, is, and will ever be... then what "purpose" does the bible serve?

Let's be clear. An omniscient God already knows if you are saved or not, and what your "end-state" will be upon death; the sheer fact that such an entity would know this, "prevents" you from doing anything that would "change" your destiny.

So, if you concede your God character to "Not" be "Omniscient", then I'd be willing to "inspect" your bible for deitical authenticity.

If you conceded your God character to be "Omniscient", then I would prefer evidence of the God that you speak of; not the sterile book you refer to.

Take a pick, and let's discuss your imaginative (evidence-less) opinion.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

Refractor (the latest in a long list of names by one of our regular Christian fanatical posters) blathered, "We all endeavor to glorify God with acts of love and of mercy."

No. My acts of love and mercy toward other human beings are generated out of my own human heart for the sake of other human beings. An imaginary, wrathful deity that threatens horrific torment to people who hold different opinions as to its existence, is not on my list of things worth acknowledging or respecting. Sorry.

Refractor rambled on, "To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love"

That's silly. I am completely peaceful, have lots of hope, and have a life filled with people who love me. Your statement is false.

Refractor rattled on and on, "In the end, once we die, the concept of eternity will be obvious to us and we will all realize that this new dimension, the spiritual dimension, is the real dimension. Our choices in this life are gravely important as they will decide our eternal destination."

And why would this be true. What possible difference could it make whether we are breathing air or not? Why is it that you think that after we take our last breath we are confined to everlasting torment for disbelief? I'm sorry, but the whole concept of eternal punishment for the temporal "sin" of skepticism is just plain retarded. It is at best an extremely poor and undeveloped concept of justice. It sounds like something created by simpletons for simpletons.

Oh, and let's not forget this: BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID. Why be afraid, because GOD loves you! It makes no sense at all.

Refractor admitted, "We [...] don't worry ourselves with mysteries that are contrary to our natural minds."

Right, you turn off your minds and stop thinking. Got it. You'll understand, I hope, if I shake in revulsion at such an idea.

Refarctor nonsensically wrote, "Many of you will take the prideful stance to reject Him because of the doctrine of Hell"

Yes, yes. Those who don't quake when a religious nut talks about retributive horror for the terrible sin of using their minds are prideful. No doubt they are arrogant as well. Refract-o-man, it's called self confidence, and it's generally considered a good sign of mental health to be self confident. I'm sorry you feel so insecure that you need an invisible friend to help you get through the day. Wow.

Refractor promised, "Call out His name, Jesus Christ, with your lips and never doubt. God, the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon."

Jesus Christ, reveal yourself to me! I beg you with all my heart and soul. I ask you with all the sincerity I can muster that you reveal yourself to me. And when you do, I'll confess it here before all the world!

Refractor, good buddy, I'll let you know what happens.

How long is very soon? Would 2,000 years count as very soon in your mind, or should I expect something this century?

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 dogeatdogblack wrote:

OK one at a time here. I will keep reading and try to answer everyone's questions. I will pick what I know and research what I don't. This one jumped out and is the easiest so I will answer and read on.

the-walruss said "Then compare the gospels. Once again, you'll find a lot of little contradictions (Judas' death for instance)."

How did Judas die, by hanging or falling down? (Matthew 27:3-8 and Acts 1:16-19)

By hanging (Matthew 27:3-8) - "Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" 5And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood." 7And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."

By falling (Acts 1:16-19) - "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.

Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does.

posted: March 25, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

Refractor: "Those that love Him know the truth about our eternal existence..."

What eternal existence? Unsupported assertion.

"To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love."

Complete rubbish.

"Which is so terribly sad because you actually don’t need to go to Hell if you simply accept Him?"

I, for one, am unable to accept a blood sacrifice as a good thing. Even if it actually happened, I am honour-bound to reject it because I consider substitutionary atonement to be the epitome of immorality.

"I suggest you call out to the Lord for help with sincerity and I assure you, you’ll receive it."

What part of Ex-Christian do you not comprehend? Most of us here did indeed call out and got no help and no answer. Nothing. And, unless you happen to *be* this mythical 'lord', you are not in a position to assure us of anything.

Your faith is just as vulnerable to going *poof*, Refractor. Only a matter of time. Either that, or the doubts that you've shoehorned into the dusty back corners of your mind will manifest as a psychological condition that profoundly screws up your life. (If it hasn't already done so, that is.)

My advic