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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
Sent in by Amy
I used to be a devout practicing Christian. It didn't take long before I realized that Christians are basically no different than anyone who isn't a Christian. People are still just people no matter what. The problem that I personally found in Christianity was that the people I had in my life who claimed Christianity took it to a whole different level. I found my life being controlled and manipulated all "in the name of God," and the pastor made decisions that directed how my life went while saying that he had been ordained by God to do so and that I would be going against the Lord if I refused to comply. It wasn't too long before I escaped that torturous environment.
Now I'm out here on my own, and I've never felt so lonely. I stand here, wishing I could have the good things about Christianity in my life but not believing I am strong enough to chance the bad stuff. Walking into a new church is like walking on a field of land mines. You never know when somethings going to, figuratively speaking, blow up in the name of God and His Word.
The worst thing about this is that I have turned very bitter toward God for this. I read the book of Job and found that he mentioned some variation of the word "bitter" in each turn that he talked except for one. Job knew what it felt like to be bitter toward a God that seemed to have let him down. Christian Bible fundamentalists will scream "but it was the devil!" I say that the devil could not do anything without God's permission first, as the story goes; who then is really responsible for letting a deranged demon maniac torture his own child? While you're thinking about that one, think on this one: God does it to each of us every single day too. I confess that I am pissed at Him for this. As much as I wish I could love Him, there is this barrier that I can't get beyond, this lack of trust between us for that reason.
I suppose that I should not give up on God, but then, I don't have anywhere else to go, do I? Who is going to stand up for me to Him? Job asked the same thing, and even though my life circumstances now don't compare evenly with Job's, it doesn't make my pain any less tormenting for me.
I can't be the only one who's pissed off about that, but I'm probably one of the few who has the guts to admit it. If not, speak out. In a demented way, I would find comfort in knowing that I am not alone.
I used to be a devout practicing Christian. It didn't take long before I realized that Christians are basically no different than anyone who isn't a Christian. People are still just people no matter what. The problem that I personally found in Christianity was that the people I had in my life who claimed Christianity took it to a whole different level. I found my life being controlled and manipulated all "in the name of God," and the pastor made decisions that directed how my life went while saying that he had been ordained by God to do so and that I would be going against the Lord if I refused to comply. It wasn't too long before I escaped that torturous environment.
Now I'm out here on my own, and I've never felt so lonely. I stand here, wishing I could have the good things about Christianity in my life but not believing I am strong enough to chance the bad stuff. Walking into a new church is like walking on a field of land mines. You never know when somethings going to, figuratively speaking, blow up in the name of God and His Word.
The worst thing about this is that I have turned very bitter toward God for this. I read the book of Job and found that he mentioned some variation of the word "bitter" in each turn that he talked except for one. Job knew what it felt like to be bitter toward a God that seemed to have let him down. Christian Bible fundamentalists will scream "but it was the devil!" I say that the devil could not do anything without God's permission first, as the story goes; who then is really responsible for letting a deranged demon maniac torture his own child? While you're thinking about that one, think on this one: God does it to each of us every single day too. I confess that I am pissed at Him for this. As much as I wish I could love Him, there is this barrier that I can't get beyond, this lack of trust between us for that reason.
I suppose that I should not give up on God, but then, I don't have anywhere else to go, do I? Who is going to stand up for me to Him? Job asked the same thing, and even though my life circumstances now don't compare evenly with Job's, it doesn't make my pain any less tormenting for me.
I can't be the only one who's pissed off about that, but I'm probably one of the few who has the guts to admit it. If not, speak out. In a demented way, I would find comfort in knowing that I am not alone.
I hate to break the news to you, but God is imaginary. Let him go along with Santa, The Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. If you want help getting right with God, this ain't the place.
A well meaning Christain will undoubtedly say the most cliche'd bullshit line of this site:
"Don't be mad at God for the behavior of a church leader or it's members, you must just have a personal relationship with Jesus."
Yea ole Jebus will solve all yur troubles so long as you make him YOUR personal friend.
One thing that may help is to act upon the parts of your belief that feel genuine to you. What are a few things that satisfy, that enrich your life? Find those places, and then wander those paths for a while. You may or may not find a god you can trust, but you will become stronger.
And, in the meantime, here's a (((hug))).
It is not our fault that we can't believe in a god that let's every manner of bad things happen to humans.
How can a person believe, love, and trust in something that doesn't even give us a hint that s/he/it exist?
Personally I would have a little more respect for god if he would explain to me what this life of sorrow and suffering was for, other than to just trust in him.
Hell, as stupid as it sounds, as a christian and now a non-believer I still curse him when things go wrong, It helps ease life's pressures a bit.
Anyway, as much as I would hope for a hereafter, I will NEVER serve a god as cruel and evil as the god of the bible, even unto my last breath. Peace, Roger...A/A
Amy, if there is one in your vicinity, try a Unitarian/Universalist (UU) church. You might find the good community you are looking for without the negatives of Christianity. They welcome both God believers and non-believers.
Bible, but I do believe that there's something out there. Resonate made a good suggestion, you might want to seek out a universalist church for a sense of community. A website you might wish to check out if you're spiritually searching is www.sacred-texts.com. They have a ton of books online you can read on just about every religion or belief system you can think of. Good luck and remember you're not alone.
"I had a very real experience for Him because he courted me. He loves you. Ask Him"
Oh, so God courted you? Did he have sex with you also?
How many times have we heard the statement, "I have had a very real experience with God"?
I have to admit that you christians sure do have a very active imagination. However, I would caution you Zip to not go around telling too many people that you had an experience with your imaginary friend named God, or you might end up being committed in a mental institution for having Schizophrenia, which is a disease that seems to be very common among christians like yourself. However, there is medication for your condition.
"I hate to break the news to you, but God is imaginary."
Sorry to inform all you atheists, but you all are wrong.
I am convinced that he is not the "Christian God", however I am convinced that there is a "God" or higher power or higher intelligence out there of some sort. I do not believe that we got here by accident, nor do I believe that anything can create itself from nothing.
I will probably never be a christian ever again, however at the same time I also know that I will never be an atheist, because no atheist will ever be able to convince me that there is no God period. Just like I know that there is no christian that will ever be able to convince me that there is a Christian God or Personal God.
God's just so much more laid-back than most people imagine.
Unfortunately there are many people in churches today who just use the Church for power-trips, from the freedom-abusing pastor, right down to the old lady in a tweed skirt who tries to get everyone involved in making cakes.
The best advert for this gentle God can in my opinion be found by listening to the music [all free] of a chap named Don Francisco. Here is his website at
http://www.rockymountainministries.org
Read some of his editorials. Listen to his music. Let God minister to you through it. And feel free to stay away from churches :) Like I said, He's much more gentle than most people give Him credit for, and is much closer to you than you can possibly know.
Please tell us about the god you know! How, exactly, do you know her? Do you sit down to tea together? Do you play Canasta on Monday nights? Or is this some feeling you get when you meditate on your version of a god?
I'm dying to know. How exactly do you KNOW this thing you call god?
God’s QED to Job (chapters 38ff) amounts to, “I’M GOD. YOU’RE NOT. NOW SHUT UP AND TAKE IT.” Like a tantrum-throwing toddler playing grownup. Job gets a new family in the end—as if his dead children can be replaced. But is this a guarantee in real life? Job is a fable, and fables are useful only insofar as they relate to real life. And in real life, shit happens. The God hypothesis cannot account for this without making myriad excuses for the Almighty. Without the God hypothesis, there is no explaining to do.
I’m still struggling with the loss of church community, but i have no desire whatsoever to become a Christian again. For me, the possibility has been raised of taking part in the social functions of my former church—but then, i didn’t have the negative experiences that you did. Have you heard of the Stockholm syndrome?
Zip wrote: “I am so sorry for the lack of difference between Christians and non-Christians.”
Gee, you Christians certainly apologize an awful lot. You must have an awful lot to apologize for.
Or maybe it’s expanding on that barbaric idea of substitutionary sacrifice that’s so central to the Christian message. If Jesus can die for Zip’s sins, then surely Zip can apologize for the sins of Christians that he has never met. Is that it, Zip?
"Agnostic" wrote: Sorry to inform all you atheists, but you all are wrong.
I am convinced that he is not the "Christian God", however I am convinced that there is a "God" or higher power or higher intelligence out there of some sort.
That's a bold statement. You're certainly confident that there is a higher power. That being the case, I'll be eagerly waiting for you present your voluminous evidence to support this claim.
You may also want to change your handle to "Deist", since "Agnostic" contradicts the entire content of your post.
Do you lose a lot of friends when left the church?
Not to sound like a christian (I’m not) but does it make sense to be bitter toward a god for the actions of the church(s) that you attended?
Why don’t you have anywhere else to go? What about inside yourself? Your post seems to imply that you have already started on that worthwhile journey.
Finally, why are you here? I am not denigrating your decision to post here but this is a site for ex-christians. Do you think that we could provide you with some insight? Are looking for advice other than the “put your life in jesus” variety? Or are you looking to take the “final step” as it were?
To put in my two cents worth, loneliness comes from a lack of friends. If you lost most or all of your friends when you left your church and because of it, then they weren’t really your friends to begin with. I think that may be because they are looking to not be alone themselves and wish to find companionship in the crowd. If true, then they are pretty sad people, because that is not what friendship is. True friends not only stand by you, they stand with you. Twenty years ago, I got one of the best friends I have ever had because she decided that she needed a new circle of friends. I was out underneath my car fixing something and out she walked with two cokes in her hands. This woman, whom I had never met, sat down on the concrete, handed me one of the colas and started talking to me. A year later I was the best man at her wedding. Twenty years later we are closer than ever. (How’s that for an inspirational story?)
Please don’t let your anger and bitterness keep you from living your life to it’s fullest. You can and will get through this. Come back and talk with us soon! Good luck!!!!
Fuck off. You're an idiot.
Agnostic and Admiral_Kang,
You two should conjoin in mutual meditation and perhaps decide on what non-existent god you're talking about. I've heard that dropping acid and/or sensory deprevation helps in this.
Amy,
There is no absolute truth, so stop trying to look for it. It's natural to want something permanent, but all evidence shows us that the only thing permanent is change. Get used to it.
Stop thinking about eternity, because you've only got a few years before you kick off. On the contrary, you should start learning how to enjoy life.
After posting this, I'm going to have a scotch over ice, look at some Japanese lesbian porn on Youtube, bang my wife (I'll have to wake her up, she sleeps like a log), have another scotch over ice, play a little jazz/funk on the bass, brush my teeth, and go to bed.
What more could a man want?
You have to decide on what you want from life and how to get it. Don't think about eternity because it ain't there.
I will check out the link.
FROM FRITISTAT:
"That's a bold statement. You're certainly confident that there is a higher power. That being the case, I'll be eagerly waiting for you present your voluminous evidence to support this claim."
Unlike Christians who post on here, I will be the first to admit that I have no evidence to present. I know you will not find this valid either due to the fact that all of you have heard this line before, however I base my opinion on my own personal experiences. That is the honest truth.
FROM FRITISTAT:
"You may also want to change your handle to "Deist", since "Agnostic" contradicts the entire content of your post"
Perhaps you are right, however at the same time, maybe I need to rephrase what I said in my last post. I'm not exactly 100 percent sure that there is a God, however I am 90 percent for sure, and who knows? Maybe I am wrong. However, at the same time I don't see how it is possible for something to create itself from nothing. I don't see how it is possible for a perfectly round earth to be created from a big bang. Anytime something blows up the remains are usually jagged and are not perfectly round.
I will be the first to admit that I do not know a lot about science, and I do not have a college education. I am open to any links or other information. I also want to let all of you atheists know that unlike most christians who come here to post, I am not here to disrespect none of you. However, IMHO it takes more faith to be an atheist than what it takes to be a christian. I don't see how it is possible for something to create itself without a creator. Please educate myself on the matter. I am open to it, so feel free to do so. :)
FROM PEKINGJOHN:
"Agnostic and Admiral_Kang,
You two should conjoin in mutual meditation and perhaps decide on what non-existent god you're talking about. I've heard that dropping acid and/or sensory deprevation helps in this".
Pekingjohn,
I'm not so sure who this God is or what he is. I just believe that it's more likely that there is a creator of some sort out there, although I may be wrong.
Some of you may burst out laughing at my next statement, however I have sometimes wondered if perhaps human life, and this planet might have been created by some aliens or other higher advanced life forms out there who took on the name, "God".
I simply do not know, however I still do not agree with the atheist belief that "There is no God or Creator Period". Like I said, I am open to whatever links or other information any of you have to present.
I also must admit at the same time that I still do sometimes wonder if perhaps the christians might be right after all, and I might end up splitting hell wide open one of these days. I sure do hate to take that chance, but at the same time this so called loving God doesn't seem fair at all. It is wrong for people to suffer for some incident that took place in the Garden of Eden many centuries ago. None of us were responsible for that, so at the same time I find the christian belief to be wrong. Their version of "Who God Is" is not loving, nor do I find Jesus' death to be a "True Death", considering that he brought himself back to life and he was considered "God". If he was indeed "God", then I believe that Jesus was more than capable of enduring pain and suffering that most of us mortal human beings cannot. I have never been phased by the words, "Jesus died and suffered for your sins". I have always found that to be an overblown statement.
The actions and characteristics of the God who I feel does exist does not line up with what the bible has to say about him. The two do not match.
In closing, I want to make it clear that I am not here to disrespect atheists. Maybe I should have worded my earlier post different than what I did. I am here for a friendly debate, and to explain why I believe what I believe, and to get the atheist's perspective on the matter I guess you could say.
I am searching, and seeking knowledge on the subject.
You are not the only person that has ever been mad at God. At one point, I declared open war on God. I had a very deliberate plan to get into Hell, amass the Armies of Darkness, and march upon the Gates of Heaven. I fully intended to face off against God and crush it.
Killing God is hard. Not because there is a God that posseses any real qualities, such as being hard to kill, but because from the time we are born we are told how things work. We are told the way of things, and they become our world. You only believe in God because you have been given no other choice. You think you understand the nature of this God; yet it is at the moment that we think we fully understand something that we least understand it.
There is a saying, a Buddhist teaching which helped me in my escape from Christianity: if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him. This does not mean anything other than to kill your concepts of something when you believe you have found it. Our understanding of the way of the world is ever-shifting, ever-changing, like sand in a wind. And this is life; life is fluid, dynamic, ever-dancing. It's why concepts of God have changed, and are still changing. The question you have to ask yourself is: is what I have been told of God really God, or is it what I am expected to believe? If there really is a God, Amy, why do you need the Bible to understand it? Why do you need a bridge? If there was really a God, Amy, I would think that this God would have the power to contact us more directly, or at the very least to live up to its promises. Yet this God does not answer prayer, nor does it live up to its qualities described in the Bible. If it did, there would be a lot of dead atheists. Strangely enough, we are a growing group.
At the very least, Amy, you do not need God or religion to be a spiritual person. Life is never more beautiful than the day it becomes OUR responsibility. And this is a hard transition; give it time. The most important thin you can ask yourself is: is there REALLY a God? You are expected to believe this, but where is the proof? Where is the evidence? People can offer a lot of roundabout arguments, but in the end these are all just appeals to your emotion and the fact that you don't know everything. It's no wonder you're mad at God; when I saw the abuses of Christianity and God's apparent involvement with it, I was FURIOUS. Pissed off at God? I HATED God with every fiber of my being. But this is such bad blood, and this is what Christians want; they want you to tow their party line, Amy. They either want you to love God or hate God unconditionally. That way, the world works the way they want it to. But it doesn't have to be this way, Amy. I realized, at first, that Christians might be WRONG about God. This was only the first step on a long path realizing that there is no God, but it's a question you should ask yourself: how do Christians know? They don't. If they did, they'd have better answers than emotional appeals.
Think about it, Amy; have you ever been in an argument where you made a point, and the other side could only respond emotionally instead of logically? That's what happening here. They can't win, so at the very least they'll be happu knowing they've confused and upset you. But you're not the one at fault. You're an innocent person searching for meaning, AND THEY ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU. And you . . . don't . . . NEED THEM. Let God speak for itself, Amy. hear that thunderous, boomng, crushing silence? God is in your head, Amy, because others expect it to be. They want you to be mad, Amy. They want you to play this big, overdramatic, blown-out-of-proportion emotional game. But you don't have to. it doesn't have to be that way. Ask logical questions; expect logical answers. If people make fantastic claims, expect fantastic evidence. I was there, and I know your pain. Demand justice; demand answers from God. But don't be surprised when God does NOTHING.
The scariest part for you might be the possibility of not knowing. Guess what? NOBODY knows. And that's okay. What is wrong with admitting that e don't have all the answers? We can be good people WITHOUT knowing all the answers. You're not going to start running around killing people because there is no God, right? Right. Why? Because you're a better person without God.
I've got some questions for you that I'd like you to answer for me w/ complete truth and open heart.
When you went to church, were you doing it out of religion and once a week, or were you building a relationship with Christ that affected your daily life OUTSIDE of what your pastor says. (It sounded like the pastor was more god, than Christ in your story by the effect the pastor had on your day to day life...correct me if I'm wrong)
Second... Who is God? Now, like I said I care enough about you to have thought diligently about posting this. Others on here give the same 'ol free thinker answer of "THERE IS NO GOD GET OVER IT" However I truly think that you know in your heart that there is, but I think that you might be underestimating his power...i.e.
Who is going to stand up for me to Him?
Think about those questions a bit. I want you to know that it is OK to be confused and it is ok to be angry. There are numerous accounts in the Bible where people get flustered and confused because God seems to be confusing. I can tell you though from personal experience that if you have faith w/ no doubt that God will provide. For me, it was a matter of not having money for housing or food, and it got to the point where I realized that when I prayed in faith, I was really leaning on other things besides God, but when those crutches were kicked out from under me and I began to fall, God lifted me right up, and provided me w/ money, food, a place to live, and most of all joy. It was about a 6-9 month process, unfortunately one of the drags of Faith is that it doesn't go along w/ the worldly mindset of "Instant gratification" but i can gurantee you that God has somethin' special in the mix for you Amy and that He is just waiting for you to make the next move ;-)
Think about all of these things tonite and pray about it, and let me know what you think tomorrow. Have a good day Amy!
I don't have much to offer you except to say that I spent many years of my life searching for a god and it never happened. I never found him and I guess you might say I was looking in the wrong places.
I now live my life without any religion at all and I get by quite nicely. I don't expect to ever find a god because I don't think one exists. Now, I can't explain how I "know" this but then again, I don't have to explain anything anyway. Suffice it to say I know that as for me, there are no gods.
I would suggest you read a book about mythology to see where the Adam and Eve story originated and maybe then you will lose your fear of hell.
I'm not very well educated but have always had a healthy dose of common sense and logic. It's way better than faith, you know! I agree with Mark Twain that "faith is believing what you know ain't so."
Let me also say that being an atheist is not that bad. It simply means that one has no illusions about a god. We both live in the same world; I just don't believe in magic.
You mentioned that you didn't want to be wrong about your beliefs but did you ever stop to think what your beliefs would be if you had been born in a different part of the world? Muslims don't fear the christian god and vice versa! Think about that.
If you are new to the possibility that no gods exist and you truly want to learn more, there is a wealth of info at your fingertips. Put in NO GOD in your search engine and you will get a host of sites to visit. Good luck.
To Amy: Thanks for your post and keep your mind open to all the realities around you and don't give delusions the time of day. You are at the beginning of an exciting journey. Good for you. Jim Earl
"were you building a relationship with Christ that affected your daily life OUTSIDE of what your pastor says."
Tyler,
I realize your post is directed at Amy, however I have been down this road with you christians also, and looking back at my experience, No, I had no desire for a relationship with Christ, and to tell you the truth, I still do not have any desire to have a relationship with an invisible man who I cannot see, touch, or feel. I desire to have a relationship with real, living, and breathing people. Having a relationship with Jesus is no more real to me than having a relationship with a rock or a tree. At least I can see those objects, and having faith was never acceptable for me. Having a relationship with a dead man who has not shown his face in 2,000 years is not realistic. You cannot have a relationship with someone who is dead, and is unseen. Spiritual relationships are not practical nor are they realistic.
FROM TYLER:
"For me, it was a matter of not having money for housing or food, and it got to the point where I realized that when I prayed in faith, I was really leaning on other things besides God, but when those crutches were kicked out from under me and I began to fall, God lifted me right up, and provided me w/ money, food, a place to live, and most of all joy. It was about a 6-9 month process, unfortunately one of the drags of Faith is that it doesn't go along w/ the worldly mindset of "Instant gratification" but i can gurantee you that God has somethin' special in the mix for you Amy and that He is just waiting for you to make the next move"
You know Tyler, I have heard that same old stuff before, well it never happened to me. God never provided anything.
I am the one who provided my living, because I am the one who went out and worked my butt off to get anywhere in life. God did nothing. It was by my own human effort.
As far as "God" providing you with money, food, a place to live, and most of all joy. No, a human being provided you with those things. It's called an employer or welfare which ever one you were getting these things from.
I get so sick and tired of the way humans are disrespected and how the christian message robs people of their own abilities.
The facts are Tyler, that whoever this God is, he gave you your own abilities and talents to make things happen on your own. I use to think God was going to do this big stuff for me that you are talking about, and it never happened.
It was when I took control of my life again, and when I got off my butt and started believing in myself is when I once again started making progress.
If I were to give God credit for anything, it would be my own abilities, however I did all of the work.
That is practical and how life works.
It was about a 6-9 month process, unfortunately one of the drags of Faith is that it doesn't go along w/ the worldly mindset of "Instant gratification" but i can gurantee you that God has somethin' special in the mix for you Amy and that He is just waiting for you to make the next move ;-)
Jim Earl: That's a mighty fine promise you made to Amy there Tyler.
Tell me this, Tyler, what was "god" doing when Hitler was stuffing the victims in the fire? What was "god" doing when the zealots flew the planes into the twin towers? What was "god" doing while the gunman at Virginia Tech shot down 32 victims? What was "god" doing when he sent tornadoes recently that took 50 or more lives? Was he looking to kill more or was this his exact plan? Or should we expect just these kind of things in a world without a god? Just wondering. Jim Earl
"I would suggest you read a book about mythology to see where the Adam and Eve story originated and maybe then you will lose your fear of hell."
Hi Jim Earl,
Thanks, I will do that. I will admit that the fear of hell is what brought me into christianity in the first place. I never really desired a relationship with a mythical man in the first place. Plus I have no interest nor desire to ever return to the christian faith, because of two things:
1) It would sabotage my successes since leaving the christian faith.
2) I would have to give up my lifestyle which has brought me happiness and joy.
I refuse to go backwards. Returning to the christian faith again would do so. God failed to make himself personally known to me, and he failed to provide.
I am now to a point where I only believe in "A creator". I do not believe in this personal God who you can have a relationship with who provides all of these things such as finances, careers, mates, and goals in life. I believe that success is obtained by human effort, not God.
I believe that God "The Creator" does not get personally involved in the affairs of other people.
FROM JIM EARL:
You mentioned that you didn't want to be wrong about your beliefs but did you ever stop to think what your beliefs would be if you had been born in a different part of the world? Muslims don't fear the christian god and vice versa! Think about that.
Yes, I have and that is one of the things that has brought me to where I am at today.
I believed in Jesus and the Christian Message because I was taught to believe that. It was based on tradition, not fact.
The facts are that every single religious/spiritual belief has it's own "Bible". The Christian Bible is no more valid than what the Koran is.
Every single Christian believes that their way is the only way only because they have been taught to believe what they believe.
"That's a mighty fine promise you made to Amy there Tyler"
The same exact promise that I have heard over and over again for years, which was never fruitful nor did it provide any comfort or productivity in my life.
I guarantee that most of what Tyler achieved was more less done by his own human effort. Not God. I realize that atheists will still disagree with me on my next opinion, however if God did anything that helped Tyler, he gave him his own abilities to make things happen. Tyler's achievement and ability to pick himself back up was done more less by his own human effort. Unfortunate, like most christians, Tyler has been taught to give all credit to God, and has been taught to believe that he can do nothing without Christ, which in reality is not true.
I would encourage Amy to take charge of her own life and learn to trust in her own abilities. Learn to believe in yourself and trust in your own efforts to make things happen.
If it were real, it could not possibly be hurt by you "giving up" on it. If it were omnipotent, how could it possibly care. After all, whatever you do would be of its own doing.
It's ok to not believe in gods. Lots of people live wonderful lives without gods. My husband and I are very happy, and live fulfilled lives--no matter how many people try to lie viciously and say the opposite--that you can't be happy. That's a terrible lie--don't fall for it.
1) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
2) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
3) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
4) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
5) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
6) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
7) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
We all need to remember that the Bible was written in a far different time and it is nearly impossible to apply the rules of that time to the reality of today. Just try to accept all of the creator's children, as they are, not as you think they need to be.
For those who don't know I am a recovering alcoholic. I have 17 years of unblemished sobriety. I did it all on my own with the help of real humans. Despite what many think God did not help.
Last year an old friend emailed me I hadn't heard from in many years. She knew I was a recovering drunk and told me that Jesus delivered her from alcoholism a couple years ago. She had become born again. Then she later went on to say she had a little slip and got wasted a few months back.
Hmmmmm Jesus helped this girl get sober, yet she slips. I did it all with human help and my record remains unblemished. What is up with that.
Hey Pekingjohn,
I love what you said,
"After posting this, I'm going to have a scotch over ice, look at some Japanese lesbian porn on Youtube, bang my wife (I'll have to wake her up, she sleeps like a log), have another scotch over ice, play a little jazz/funk on the bass, brush my teeth, and go to bed.
What more could a man want?"
At least everything but the scotch. A man must watch as much porn as he can especially of the lesbian variety, and a husband must bang his wife as often as possible in this lifetime.
"A man must watch as much porn as he can especially of the lesbian variety, and a husband must bang his wife as often as possible in this lifetime."
Talking about a couple of typical "Male Chauvenist Pigs".
Is that all you men care about, is drinking, watching porn, and having sex? I cannot believe that there are women in this world who tolerate this kind of crap from (Dick for brains) men such as yourselves. You talk about your wives as if they are nothing more than sex slaves to you. Men are truly stupid, and it seems that men such as yourselves don't seem to care about anything else but drinking and screwing.
If I were married to either one of you, you would both be packing your bags and hitting the roads.
I am reminded of why I am a lesbian, and why I hate men.
Pigs!!!!
Cheers :)
No, the real reason why I am a lesbian is because I am not attracted to men period. They are disgusting creatures, and the feel of their skin makes mine crawl. Men are nasty.
It is when I read such comments from insecured males who don't know how to do anything else but think with their dicks that I am reminded of why I am glad that I do not like men.
You said, "It is when I read such comments from insecured males who don't know how to do anything else but think with their dicks that I am reminded of why I am glad that I do not like men."
So, it’s fair to say, you feel like a more justified and secure lesbian, because of other people; e.g., hetero couples and their relationships.
Interesting, you seem to believe you "know", exactly what "all" women need; well, at least from a lesbians point of view.
Perhaps, you don't know what a lot of women enjoy; have you considered that there are women on this planet who don't mind; going to a local male strip club, having some drinks, hitting the pub and picking up a date for the night.
It must horrify you, that there are men being used as sex objects, by lusting women in the world; or is your concern for the misguided hetero women of the world, who you believe have lowered their standards and lost sight of what it means to be a "real woman".
Cheers :)
"You talk about your wives as if they are nothing more than sex slaves to you"
No honey actually I am a slave to my wife for sex. She gets whatever the fuck she wants from me and she exploits it well sometimes, but it's all worth it in the end if I get my medicine : )
I accept your criticism in toto. But there are a few things I want to add.
1) I don't spend all my time thinking about drinking and sex - only about fifty to seventy five percent. I do have a job.
2) I drink regularly, but I don't overdo it. My dad taught me responsible drinking when I was young.
3) My wife likes my banging her. If I go three days without banging her, she wakes me up in the middle of the night to do it. And I give her a minimum of three orgasms each time (I know, she could be faking it, but she says it's real.) while I only get one or none. Who's the sex slave here?
4) I save all my banging for my wife, and she likes it like that.
5) What does she do when she catches me watching Japanese lesbo porn? She makes me find some male homo porn, and then I have to bang her.
6) In addition to banging her on a regular basis, I have also hired a maid for her so that she doesn't have to cook, clean, or take care of the baby. I also give her a monthly stipend of $500 personal spending money. She doesn't work. She spends all day visiting friends and relatives and going shopping, the beauty salon, or just staying at home.
I think I treat my wife pretty damn good.
By the way, do you watch lesbo porn? Perhaps you can refer me to some good sites.
Sincerley,
Pekingpig
This got derailed REAL fast.
As a man, I feel compelled to add my own $0.02.
ALL healthy human beings are drawn to sex and sexuality. One of the ways this manifests itself is through looking at pornography. Pornography is a loose term; some people are willing to define it as something as mundane as images of people in revealing clothing, to something as extreme as gokkun, gagging or A2M; and of course the extremity of certain porn is defined only by the viewer. A viewer, male or female, might find latex porn disturbing while someone else finds it attractive.
ALL healthy people are drawn to sexual imagery; studies have shown that women enjoy porn just as much as men. Sometimes MORE so. Some women enjoy gay male porn. I have an ex who enjoyed watching gay male porn, for those of you who doubt this. So the enjoyment of porn is not restricted to men, nor is it restricted to women, nor is the enjoyment of certain kinds of porn restricted to certain kinds of people. What I like is not on trial here.
On drinking: I come from a long line of male alcoholics. Virtually every one of my dad's brother's is an alcoholic. I say virtually because not all of them are still alive, but when they were ALL of them drank. I do not drink; I am, in fact, militantly against drinking. AT ALL. I've recieved a lot of heat for this view. But it is mine, and I stand by it. So to say that all men care about drinking, is a fallacious staement. I despite drinking.
On having sex: ALL healthy people think about having sex. If this was all people cared about, then it would show in their behavior. So obviously, men do NOT only think of having sex.
On being a lesbian: wrong. You are a lesbian because you are biologically geared towards it. It's in your genes. You are NOT a lesbian because you hate men. Hating men may be more a deeply-rooted problem, but it has nothing to do with you being a lesbian.
On that note, I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic of the discussion. Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?
P.S.
And I don't mind being called "Dick for Brains." I'm the first one to admit that my dick provides a great deal of motivation for many of the things I do. Life would be pretty boring without my dick.
Sincerely,
Pekingpig
Brian?s mother: "Stop thinking about sex!"
Brian: "I wasn't!"
Brian?s mother: "You're always on about it. "Will the girls like this? Will the girls like that? Is it too big? Is it too small?"
To the man hatein' lesbian heterophobe,
I don't like men either but that may be because I am one and would prefer it if I had all the women to myself. I drink sometimes but I fail to see why I should blame my penis for it, especially since my wife likes to drink sometimes too.
Oh, and I am the housebitch in my relationship and my wife is the breadwinner. I cook, I clean, and take care of the kids. And my wife seems to want me to bang her! We even have a porno we watch together sometimes.
Who's the pig here? I think neither me nor my wife are piggish enough.
But give us time and we'll see what we can do.
Another apology? Listen, you Christians need to get your act together so you won’t have to be apologizing so freakin’ much.
We can’t help it; it’s biological. Evolution (or the Intelligent Designer?) has provided us with a brain and a dick, but with not enough blood to feed them both at the same time.
I agree with Proud Lesbian. Men are insensitive jerks who don't know how to do nothing else but brag about their drinking and getting laid. Men are dumber than a box of rocks.
Oh one more thing. My wife will not admit to liking porn, but she was careless one fine day and left a porno tape in the machine. Oh that was beautiful because it was girl/girl action. I kept it under my hat for a very long time that I knew what she was up to.
I agree with Fritistat. You are a deist, like Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, and (recently) Antony Flew.
Agnosticism is not a position on the existence of God or the nature of God. It is the position that one does not or cannot know whether or not God exists. You sound like you’re convinced that there is a god to the extent that you’re not agnostic, but perhaps i’ve misread the tone of your statement.
In a way, i agree with your statement, though. People become atheists on their own. I might be able to tell you why God’s existence seems unlikely or illogical to me, but only you can make yourself receptive to my arguments.
(I also am very slightly agnostic. Although i think that the probability of there being a god is incalculably small, as a fallible being, i don’t claim to know anything for sure.)
I am sorry that you have had to have the kind of experiences that make you hate men. But you're wrong.
The fact that women are becoming corporate executives does not indicate that they are a superior gender. Corporate executives have existed for quite some time. You seem to say that women are just now becoming corporate executives. So women are just now catching up with men on the superiority scale? Are they being allowed to become corporate executives? Are they starting their own companies, or are they just now trying to become corporate executives? Whatever the case, this is no indication of female superiority.
I could make a very long (nigh unending) list of how women are weaker than men. I could provide you with firsthand experiences, biological proof, and emotional theory that men are better than women. We could make this very logn and drawn out, but I'm not going to do such a thing. As a man, I'm really not interested in debating whether or not I'm better than a woman. I have my strengths, I have my weaknesses. So does every woman I've ever met. I'm just concerned with being ME.
It sounds to me like you are a misandrist, Laura. Misandry is the opposite of misogyny; it is the hatred of men. These kind of hatreds come from deep-seated emotional or psychological trauma, sometimes indirectly. You might have been reared in an environment where men were looked down upon. I really don't know what your situation is; only that you are wrong.
I haven't bragged about drinking, (in fact, I hate drinking so much that if I could, I would reenact Prohibition . . . only this time with very brutal public executions for breaking that law)nor have I bragged about getting laid. So does that mean that I'm NOT a real man?
I don't let others set the standard for my masculinity. Every night at work I listen to women bad-mouth men, shitting on our supposed inherited genetic flaws. This shit comes to the surface real fast when they're around me; I'm one of the fastest workers in the plant, and I don't take anyone's shit. These women LOVE to try and tell me how to do my job, and when I do it better, prove them wrong, or ignore their "advice," they chalk it up to me being a dumb ape. Ladies . . . you can call me a dumb ape when the floor managers think you're a better worker than me. And most of the floor managers are women.
It's hard not to blame them. Most of the workers are female, too, but they've got no excuse for shitting on me when I come,along and do my job better than they do theirs. Ladies maybe . . . maybe if you'd just focus on doing what you do better, and not on how much better you are INHERENTLY because you don't have a dick, you'd be getting corporate executive jobs a long time ago.
"I might be able to tell you why God’s existence seems unlikely or illogical to me, but only you can make yourself receptive to my arguments."
Hi Cousin Ricky,
I am willing to do so.
FROM COUSIN RICKY:
"(I also am very slightly agnostic. Although i think that the probability of there being a god is incalculably small, as a fallible being, i don’t claim to know anything for sure.)"
That's interesting. I guess I would be considered a Deist now when I think more about it, and since I have done some more research on the matter, however I do have my doubts about the existence of a creator I must admit. Maybe I am slightly agnostic still.
Tell me this, Tyler, what was "god" doing when Hitler was stuffing the victims in the fire? What was "god" doing when the zealots flew the planes into the twin towers? What was "god" doing while the gunman at Virginia Tech shot down 32 victims? What was "god" doing when he sent tornadoes recently that took 50 or more lives? Was he looking to kill more or was this his exact plan? Or should we expect just these kind of things in a world without a god? Just wondering.
God didn't kill anybody. We are in a world that is separated from God (compliments to Adam and Eve way back when) and as a result Satan has free-reign over the world. In Jesus dying for us, we are able to be close with God again...but only if we call on Him and trust in Him. Therefore, with evil intentions RULING the world, you should only expect bad things to happen.
Christianity isn't a frolic through a park u know? If it's being pushed to the max BECAUSE there are more people who want nothing to do w/ it than there are true-believing/acting Christians.
I don't wanna fight or argue w/ u man 'cause that's not gonna get us anywhere. I did want to answer your question though :-) Have a great day man!
I have some questions for Tyler ...
1) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
-hmmm 10 dollars :-P
2) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
-I 'spose you'll have to risk getting slapped then 'eh?
3) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
-Let's flip it around, why can't the Canadians or Mexicans own us for slaves?
4) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
- Hmm what's your definition of the Sabbath?
5) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
- Take it to the King and see what he says?
6) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
- Of course not! Football is evil! hahaha!
7) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
- Nah, I'd say roll up a pair of denim trousers and have a hoedown in the mixed seed field!
We all need to remember that the Bible was written in a far different time and it is nearly impossible to apply the rules of that time to the reality of today.
I'll stop it there! Here's what I'm getting at 'cause I entirely agree w/ u on that last stanza (I was just being obnoxious w/ your questions...I don't think i have to clarify that, but I also don't want you killing random people either :-P )
In this day and age we have Christ to thank for covering the OLD law w/ His blood. Does this mean the Bible is erroneous?! Of course not...this is how it USED to be and it is simply Historical, but if u stop at Leviticus and try to apply it like here and all of these situations that you've given me to answer to, then you just need to skip up to the New Covenant to understand what the LOVE of God is rather than the utter WRATH of God. I recommend John :-)
Cheers!
-Tyler
"In this day and age we have Christ to thank for covering the OLD law w/ His blood. Does this mean the Bible is erroneous?! Of course not...this is how it USED to be and it is simply Historical, but if u stop at Leviticus and try to apply it like here and all of these situations that you've given me to answer to, then you just need to skip up to the New Covenant to understand what the LOVE of God is rather than the utter WRATH of God. I recommend John"
Then should we just simply throw away the old testament then? After all it no longer matters. Besides Jesus came and changed everything, however at the same time God claims:
MAL 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
You say he's about love, yet he's all about wrath in the old testament, but he claims that he does not change.
So why should I trust a "Sociopath" like that? God seems to have a lot of mood swings.
Before you answer those questions, you cannot use the bible as your defense, since it is only "Hear-Say", not real evidence.
On a more personal note, I will say that I do appreciate your sense of humor. ;)
"God didn't kill anybody."
But he allowed it to happen, and didn't do anything to prevent it either, although he supposedly has the power to intervene.
Tyler Said:
"We are in a world that is separated from God (compliments to Adam and Eve way back when) and as a result Satan has free-reign over the world."
Well that is God's fault considering that he is responsible for the creation of his evil little pet named Satan, so therefore mankind should not have to suffer for God's screw ups along with the screw ups of two other people who none of us ever knew. In that case you and I should be responsible for the crimes of Hitler, and Charles Manson. That is exactly the kind of reasoning the bible and christianity teaches. It is absurd, and insulting to anyone who has any common sense whatsoever.
Tyler, you christians are going to have to come up with a better excuse than that. We've heard that same old worn out cover story over and over again. You are like a lawyer who is trying to win a court case who cannot come up with new evidence.
Tyler Said:
"there are true-believing/acting Christians."
Ok, who are the real and true christians?
Tyler Said:
"I don't wanna fight or argue w/ u man 'cause that's not gonna get us anywhere. I did want to answer your question though :-) Have a great day man!"
I realize you are responding to Jim Arvo's post, however I also felt the need to throw my 2 cents worth in.
In a nutshell you cannot defend you faith successfully when it is challenged, so you have decided to bail out, which is ok. :-) I understand. No christian ever can defend their faith successfully whenever it is challenged by those of us who were once part of the faith and who have studied the bible heavily over the years.
I honestly do not want to fight and argue with you either Tyler, I'm sure you are a good man. :)
However, understand that people like myself will never believe in any God until he reveals himself in a more personal way and starts providing some answers instead of some old ancient text known as the bible and other hear say messages from christians like yourself.
You have a good day too. :-)
That was "Jim Earl" who Tyler was replying to, not "Jim Arvo". I sometimes get the two of them mixed up. :-)
I stand corrected on that.
OK. So the god of the Old Testament was brutal, but the god of the New Testament is love. Just quickly turn to Acts 5 - New Testament - "god of love" zone. There's Ananias, gave money to the church, but then God killed him because he'd lied about how much he'd given. Sounds pretty brutal to me. Then Sapphira comes in, sees her husband dead on the floor, repeats Ananias' error and, wallop, she's dead on the floor too. The early church is struck with terror because this god of love is still killing people.
Let's look at what underpins the gospel message. "Mankind" has sinned, and god has decreed that the penalty is death. What was this sin? - because it's extremely unlikely that Adam and Eve ever existed - it seems that even the early Hebrews took this story as allegorical rather than literal. It appears that this sin is basically self-awareness and the ability to make our own decisions. We might, therefore, make some decisions that god doesn't like. This is an absolute no-no - it's sin. Because "all of have sinned", all must die. This is in Romans - also the New Testament.
However, the escape route is that, if you believe that Jesus died in your place and accept him as your Lord and Master then, hey presto, you've escaped the penalty. But what happens if you've never heard of Jesus? What happens if you're incapable of understanding the message? Sorry, guys, it's the firey pit once again. This "god of love" still seems awfully keen on killing people.
Are you suggesting that we non-believers have never called on or trusted in the mindgod? I beg to differ. As a young man, I served the Church of the Nazarene in many capacities. I did my best for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. However, after many years of searching for a closer touch from the Master, I had to admit that it was a one-way street I was traveling.
I was left with having to make a decision using logic and reason. However, like many here, I am still open for a touch from this Master you still worship. The only problem is, this Master resides only in our imagination. Imagine that! And let me warn you that hearing all these ideas will haunt you for years to come, possibly until you lose your faith. Once faith is gone, then all that's left is logic and reason. Faith is just an empty vessel that fills a need in the lives of the deluded.
I don't expect this to have any effect of your life now, but think about what you are learning here and maybe in the future you will take my place and be answering other deluded people that visit here.
And to black swede: Thanks for even mentioning me in the same line with Jim Arvo. He's one of my heroes on this site.
Cheers, Jim Earl
They act like we have never heard the gospel message or we have never read the bible. The fact is that is far from the truth.
So therefore, christians like Tyler try to witness and explain the bible to us like they are witnessing to people who have never been christians before, or have never heard the gospel message before.
I remember a former christian friend of mine told me that he didn't think I had ever heard the correct version of what he called, "The True Gospel Message of Jesus Christ".
I was once in a men's bible study with this guy back when I was a die hard christian who was active within my church. This same guy who use to be the leader of our weekly men's bible study tried to sit down with me and take me through the gospel message and the book of Romans again. I told him he was not telling me about anything I had not heard before. He still didn't think I was understanding the message, however he finally gave completely up after he found that I was no longer teachable. Instead I ended up trying to debate him, and I started questioning what he was sharing with me.
I will tell Tyler and any other christian who comes onto this site that I will no longer listen to or accept what any christian has to say nor will I accept what the bible has to say.
Until I get a personal and "Real" Touch or until I hear God speak with his own voice, I will no longer listen to what other christians have to say.
Tyler and other christians need to realize that they need to let their God speak for himself (That is if he even exists), and so far God doesn't seem to be willing to do that.
I find it silly and quiet pitiful how so many christians feel so obligated to take up for their God and try to explain his actions when their God can't even seem to come forward to make himself more real and known to the people of this time period. We are not a bunch of goat and sheep herders like the people of the bible were, and considering that science and reasoning of today is shredding the gospel message to pieces, you would think that God would want to intervene and reveal himself to the people of this planet in today's times instead of expecting mankind to be gullible enough to accept a 2,000 year old bible that was written back during a totally different time period.
If God is so powerful, why does he need weak humans to keep on defending him and trying to explain his actions? It's not working in case their God has not figured it out, and as long as he fails to reveal himself in a more personal way then christianity will eventually die out completely.
BTW......You are welcome Jim Earl.
"Admiral,
Please tell us about the god you know! How, exactly, do you know her? Do you sit down to tea together? Do you play Canasta on Monday nights? Or is this some feeling you get when you meditate on your version of a god?
I'm dying to know. How exactly do you KNOW this thing you call god?"
To put things in context - I saw Amy's post, saw a hurting person, decided not to cross to the other side of the road. Job done.
However, in response to your queries, let me just say that I'm not capable of answering your questions at present, largely because I am in the same boat as most of the other visitors to this site. Damaged, battered people abused by the folk who were supposed to help, in the name of their loving God.
One day then, perhaps, I will explain myself, but not just now.
And I must say I love the humour of the people on this thread-Especially because lots of church-types would be shocked :))
PS No apologies. Heh.
I assume that since you are Klingon that you would believe in "Sto-vo-Kor".
I hope you do, because if you don't it is not honorable.
Indeed, Sto-vo-Kor is uppermost in my mind as I write anything on this forum. As indeed are the deeds of Kahless the Unforgettable.
Until we meet again, Q'aplaH!
You Klingons are a bunch of turtle-brained wusses. I eat Klingons for breakfast! Just after I assimilate them.
Trancelation, Xrayman, Pekingjohn, and Other Male Pigs,
As one of your fellow pigs, I have very much enjoyed reading your amusing posts. I only wish the men-hater(s) would come back with some more passionate but nonsensical rebuttals. Just so I could read some more jokes from you guys. But alas, it seems you have run the rug munchers away. The fun would appear to be over.
Amy,
Why did you send in your message? You realize this site is called EX-Christian, don't you?
-Clint
"You Klingons are a bunch of turtle-brained wusses. I eat Klingons for breakfast! Just after I assimilate them."
You have met your match Borg Guy. We may be on two totally different TV shows, however once we invade Borg Space we will eat and digest your technology.
We are the collective's worst nightmare.
Love,
God
"Why did you send in your message? You realize this site is called EX-Christian, don't you?"
Maybe she was searching for answers. Apparently WM didn't have a problem with her message or he wouldn't had posted it in the first place.
Why do you seem bothered by what she sent in? Do you think this site should be for atheists or people who have already left the faith only? Maybe Amy is looking for answers outside of her faith.