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…but I’m not any more.
Every once in a while I get an email or a comment accusing me of being a liar, saying it’s impossible for me to once have been a “real” Christian and now to be an atheist. Of course, the people who are so sure of my history have never met me and certainly didn’t know me in my past life as a Christian. Even so, their assuredness that what I’ve said cannot possibly be true always makes me think.
Reading Infidel, I’ve been made acutely aware that Muslims don’t have this problem of understanding. They are quite certain that people of their faith can fall away, and therefore have a solution to stop the apostasy from spreading: kill the infidels. Hmm. It might be the only sure-fire way to control the flock.
I just finished reading an article from Psychology Today, called An Atheist in the Pulpit, by Bruce Grierson. In the article, Grierson interviews several ministers who have lost their faith for a wide range of reasons. Worth reading if you’re interested in finding out how and why this can happen and, perhaps, how you can be an influence for reason and sanity among religious family and friends. It will definitely give you insight into the struggles experienced by those who awake one day to find that their faith no longer makes sense to them.
Here’s part of my story, and some of my thoughts on this topic:
It was a very strange day for me the first time someone asked me “Are you a Christian,” and my answer was, “No.” I’d spent all of my life up to that point — over 30 years — proclaiming to be a Christian. First I was a Catholic, a Christian by tradition and baptism; then I was born again.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
On December 24, 1971 in a middle pew on the right-hand side of the sanctuary in Calvary Baptist Church on Jayne Boulevard in Port Jefferson Station, New York, six months after I stopped believing in Santa Claus, I accepted Jesus as my personal savior. I was 9 years old.
Jesus loved us, the pastor said, and gave his life freely to save us from sin and hell. Wouldn’t anyone like to accept Jesus tonight, this holy night of Jesus’ birth? “If you would, get up out of your seat and come down to the altar, and pray with me now.”
I didn’t get up. I sat quietly in my seat as a few adults walked up to the front of the church to be saved. But when Pastor F—- had the new converts repeat the sinner’s prayer, I closed my eyes and said the words silently in my heart.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
About twenty years later, I stopped rationally believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. But I still believed it emotionally.
I told myself I was a Christian because nowhere does the Bible say you have to believe in your head to be saved. For years after I stopped thinking that the virgin birth and the resurrection were real, I still felt like the stories were true. Cognitive dissonance? Sure, and I was definitely aware of it. But I told people that I was a Christian, and by doing so, I was “confessing with my mouth.”
Eventually my feelings caught up with my thinking and I realized I no longer believed, not with my head or with my heart. It wasn’t until someone asked me, however, that it hit me how much I’d changed. I could no longer honestly call myself a Christian.
Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways.
There’s a reason that many Christians can’t fathom that there’s really such a thing as an ex-Christian. That’s because the born-again experience is supposed to be a magical occurrence where your spirit is literally changed by a supernatural touch from God. It is difficult to fathom not being a Christian any more if you don’t view becoming a Christian as a psychological change but as a spiritual birth. How does one become un-born?
I know that many Christians are unable or unwilling to contemplate that someone can have had the same experiences they’ve had and then turn away from it all. It’s a scary idea. It means they might be wrong. It means that they can’t say, “If you only felt what I’ve felt and lived what I’ve lived you’d turn your life over to God forever.”
Some of us have had those feelings and have lived that life. Some of us have read the Bible cover to cover with an open heart, seeking for truth. Some of us have been Christians, and we’re still not buying it. I know I can explain this until I’m blue in the face, and few Christians will understand or believe me. They’ll say my heart is hard or I’m not spiritually open. I hope, though, that a few will find food for thought in my words.
I Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
I no longer need to believe in a supernatural God, a virgin-born savior, a resurrected Lord to validate my journey or to give meaning to my life. Everything that happened to me when I was a Christian was real. My born-again experience was as serious, life-changing, numinous, and yes, real, as that of any person on this earth. (And you doubters can ask my mother if you don’t believe me.) It just wasn’t caused by God. It was caused by my own thoughts and emotions and by the communal ecstasy that is present in many evangelical Christian church services. I now interpret my past through the lens of the natural world and the human condition.
Does this mean my experiences were worthless or fake? Far from it. Although I no longer believe in the tenets of my former faith, the fact that I went on this journey, searching for truth and fulfillment, says something important about the state of my heart. A change in explanation — from the supernatural to the natural — in no way reduces or diminishes the value or reality of my experiences, but rather enlarges them and gives them meaning that transcends doctrine, dogma, or ideology.
http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=828
NOTE: This post and associated comments were moved from the articles section of the Exchristian.Net blog on February 12, sans the spamming/trolling/spoofing comments.
Nobody who is still a believer gets it. And it scares them - that's why they have to deny that our born-again experiences ever happened in the first place.
1934 and my parents were too busy trying to get food on the table to worry about why
an all powerful god completely
forgot about our welfare. I was never dragged to church except for a brief stint in
Sunday school which bored the bejabbers out of me.
I was allowed to run free on sundays and do my own thing.
Like I said I was sooo lucky not have had all that dangerous brainwashing happen to me.
Other than my infidel-like parents, I really don't know who to thank for my deliverance...maybe Zeus.
Aspentroll, Like you, I was also born in 1934, and since my mother had been raised Catholic and my father was non churched, they agreed I could choose my own god, or none...Thank god, I chose none!
Sunday school which bored the bejabbers out of me
---
Aspentroll,
I can't recall anything about going to church that I didn't find painfully BORING.
At least as an adult, the boring factor was the primary factor I had to contend with.
However, as a boy, not only did I have to contend with the boredom, but we were forced to go to religion classes, where we were 'appropriately' brainwashed; followed by exams on the effectiveness of the brainwashing.
Even as a grade school boy, I already understood that my grades in the public schools I attended, were what really counted in life and that the only reason I needed to get passing grades in church was to keep my parents from getting P-O'd at me.
I can still recall one time where I had a failing grade on a school test and Dad was angry about it. Looking to find anyway to appease him, I quickly pointed out to him that I had gotten an 'A' on some religion exam the previous weekend.
I think this incident was one of the first that opened my eye's up to what was important in life, as Dad made it clear that day, that school grades were far more important in life than church grades. While he expected me to pass the church exams, it was clear to me that he didn't care one iota whether I got C's or A's on such church exams.
I often wondered after this point in time, why he was so insistent on my attending church, if he felt the exams had no great importance to my life.
Needless to say, he didn't balk very much when I announced in my high school years that I wasn't going to attend church anymore, except on days like xmas/easter.
What I never could fathom was how others could feel all excited about being in church, while I had spent most of my time there, keeping a close eye on the clock; which I swear at times stopped stone cold, like the sun this god made stand still in the bible.
In fact, the only miracle as a boy that I ever was a witness to, was god stopping that darn clock on me when I had better things to be doing with my time.
It felt like god was punishing me with the trick of the frozen clock, just for wanting to do other things that kids prefer to do with their free time from public school days.
ATF (Who's church boredom problem, was only exceeded by the pain of kneeling for long periods of time)
Jesus said, "Call no man fool" so go f&%k yourself.
"The Fool has said there is no God."
-----
Jamie,
That is some fundie blog site (http://jamiesteele.blogspot.com/) you have put up to support your grand god delusion.
I think we should all take note of your "My Favorite Preachers" list, that you have posted, just so we can see how many of them make the news here at our site, in the future.
If I said to you that my gardening book says, "The fool hath said there are no garden pixies", then would that make you a fool?
How about if I said this, "The fool hath said there is no Allah"?
What about if we instead inserted Thor, Zeus, Buddah, Neptune etc., into that phrase of yours?
On the flip side of your argument here, one has to be a 'fool' to believe in something that has zero evidence for it's existence, which I'm sure you can easily agee with when it comes to the many OTHER gods that you so easily dismiss, without 'knowing' them like you do your own xtian god.
Now, if you and your vast band of preachers has ANY evidence to provide us ex-xtians with, that will offer at least circumstantial evidence for the existence of your god, well, we are all ears awaiting your wonderful enlightenment.
If you don't have such evidence, we would greatly appreciate if you kept your blind faith to youself and your kind, and off our EX-xtian site.
Bye now
ATF (Who also wonders how the PEACE loving, "turn the other cheek" jesus, would feel about Jamie's prayers for a sports team)
Hi ATF, thanks for the previous welcome. Still working on my testimony. You sure do well in these arguments. I can't believe the christians just won't leave us alone repeating the same old shit, day in, day out
----
Hi eejay,
Yes, I'm still looking forward to hearing your own story. Do hope that will be soon?
Thanks for appreciating my arguments here.
It's always nice to hear one's efforts aren't just falling into some massive black hole...lol
Xtians love to haunt us, as you noted.
There is some driving-force going on here.
I highly suspect they believe their god will reward them personally for every 'soul' they brainwash into their dogma.
I also suspect that some xtians who despise the ex-xtian/atheist existence of us, will throw down a few bible verses and then vanish like the wind. I think they really are trying to make sure we've heard the 'good-news' about their god, just to make sure we can't claim ignorance on judgement day.
Yes, I'm sure there are a few out there who's intent is to try and 'save' our souls, with no other agenda at hand, but I somehow believe they are in the minority that we see here.
What really ticks most of us off, is when a xtian finds this site for the first time, they believe that they are the very first to deliver the news to us of their "wonderful jesus" and his teachings and promises etc..
They don't bother to look around the site first, but instead blindly assume we are ignorant of their god instead.
I think part of this last problem, is that some find their way here via some external link that leads them to a specific page. They see this as the entire website and base their opinion on what they see of that one page.
Either that, or they are just too lazy to bother to navigate their way around to discover the rest of the site.
In order for the Webmaster to keep this site an open one, we just have to realize that we'll always have xtians bouncing in here to spread their fables.
Welcome aboard again eejay!!
ATF( Who knows many xtians maintain their undying faith, out of great fear)
"The Fool has said there is no God."
OK????? Am I supposed to be scared and intimidated by that?
Hate to burst your bubble, but once again your "Double Edged" Sword called "Bible Scripture" has failed to scare and intimidate me.
The biggest fools are christians. So go beat your bible some more while we sit here and scoff at the fact that another day has come and gone and your precious Savior is still no where to be found.
I'm sure you will also look for that scripture in the bible about people who will scoff at the 2nd coming. You christians are so predictable.
Hi everyone, thanks for the comments on my post.
I have to say that what I've quoted above really irritates me.
If God loved me unconditionally, he would not send me to hell for any reason. That's what unconditional love is, you love the person even if they hate you, even if they spit in your face; and you would never harm them regardless of how poorly they acted. Obviously the God this person believes in only loves people who kiss his ass. That is not unconditional love by any stretch of the imagination.
These kinds of contradictions in reasoning are part of what drove me away from Christianity in the first place. Sigh.
Like the Bible says, "The fool has said there is no God."
I am just quoting the Bible. If you don't believe it OK.
That is your problem not mine.
It just proves total depravity.
Read Revelation 9: 20-21
sounds a lot like many who comment here.
Also read 1 Corinthians 1: 20-25
and tell me what you think minus all the bad language.
And, yes, I've actually heard both used for the same purpose. Kindof redefines "taking the Lord's name in vain," doesn't it?
Since you liked quoting from the Bible, it say's in Psa 14:1,
"The fool hath said IN HIS HEART there is no God."
But, we atheist have said it to the WORLD!
Why don't you check out Psa 137:9,
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
I think, I'd rather be called fool, than happy christians like yourself, who call this verse a happy message from your God.
I haven't dropped a brick on my toe yet so the jury is still out on that one.
Thanks for the commentary on Psalms it like Romans 5:6-8 better.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
"What about the Bible verses? Did you read them?"
Yes I have. Most of us, contrary to popular belief, have read the bible. What is your point here? Your imaginary god is smarter than we are? That people are basically stupid? I am not impressed and I doubt that any one else here is. You decry our use of obscenities yet you resort to veiled insults, calling us children and calling upon your god to insult us as well. For your information, there is no such thing as dirty language, only dirty minds. I would think that if we make you feel like a young teenager, then you need to grow up.
Quoting the bible to us makes about as much sense as a muslim quoting the quran to you trying to prove allah. Your continued denials of his "truth" will only further convince him that you are blind.
For every biblical verse you can quote showing the love of your god, most of us can quote ten showing how maniacally sadistic he really is. It must be nice to go through life picking and choosing that which appeals to you and denying the existence that which does not. I would rather deal with cold hard reality than your comforting fantasy any day, but then I am not a coward that has to go through life hiding behind the robes of a super being crying “get’em daddy!”.
Your bible is not truth. It is the result of no doubt intelligent people trying to explain the world around them in terms and concepts they and others of the bronze-age day could understand. You are proceeding here from the usual erroneous assumption that none of us have read that disgusting piece of filth and that if we did read it, then somehow we’ll just magically understand. That Jamie, is a crock of shit!
Thanks for your comments.
You used 2 words i would like to respond to.
1) Truth-
Jesus said this about truth:
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. John 8:34
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! John 8:45
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. John 14:17
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." John 18:37
"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.
John 18:38
2) blind
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4
I encourage you to read these verses and see for yourself what "truth and blindness" really means.
God bless Heuy
Give it up pal, we've dealt with your kind before. You don't have a prayer of winning a debate in this group, and just in case you can't figure it out, this is "Ex-Christian.net" and we don't really care what "you" think, or what the bible has to say on the matter, because the bible is nothing more than "Hear Say".
Oh, and if there is a "God", you can't prove that he is the God of the bible, and just because the bible says so, that still does not prove that the bible is the authentic "Word of God". You are going to have to provide evidence outside of the bible to prove your theory. Not scripture itself.
OK????? Am I supposed to be scared and intimidated by that?
Hate to burst your bubble, but once again your "Double Edged" Sword called "Bible Scripture" has failed to scare and intimidate me.
The biggest fools are christians. So go beat your bible some more while we sit here and scoff at the fact that another day has come and gone and your precious Savior is still no where to be found.
Jamie Steele Said:
"That is your problem not mine.
It just proves total depravity"
I'm not the one who has a problem. In case you haven't figured it out, you are the one who has a problem, because you are the one who is unable to convince any of us that your bible holds truth.
You are also the one who is deprived. You are deprived of being able to think for yourself. You have no idea or clue how christianity robs people of their dreams and how it enslaves others.
True freedom outside of christianity has taught people like myself to accept others who choose to be different. You christians are no better than Adolf Hitler and his Nazi followers. If it were up to you christians you would all murder and kill anyone who is gay.
Loving and accepting other people from different walks of life is "True Love" unlike the christian message the teaches bigotry and hate.
Jamie Steele Says:
"Thanks for the commentary on Psalms it like Romans 5:6-8 better"
Why of course you do Jamie, because just like every other christian you like to "Cherry Pick" bible verses that tell you what "you" want to hear. You ignore the barbaric stuff that the bible teaches. The facts are that your God is a jealous barbaric murderer, and you aid and abet a known killer and murderer.
It is people like you who give God his strength, because without his followers, God is nothing. He needs strength in numbers in order for him to be powerful. I would be more than willing to bet that you really do not love God with all your heart. The only reason why you obey God is out of the fear of hell. That is the only reason why.
However, I was once like you, scared to death to think for myself and scared to death to do what I desired, and I was afraid to associate with "Non-Christians" and other people who live alterantive lifestyels all because I was afraid of the big bad God in the sky. Leaving Christianity has taught me to love and tolerate others who are different. That is what makes my kind better than all of you christian "Neo-Nazis", who preach nothing more than hatred.
Do you have any proof for what you believe?
I take the Bible as a very accurate historical document. And I read it and think for myself.
I became a Christian at the age of 20. I didn't grow up in church or learn the lingo. I was much like you sound to be now.
I am not putting you down at all but most of the comments on this thread seem to come from people who are very Biblically literate.
So what is the harm in talking about what it says.
If it is false big deal.
Did you read the Bible verses?
I find it quiet funny that you still find the need to quote scripture on here, all because you can't come up with anything that proves your case for Christ.
I really don't give a fuck about what the bible has to say on the matter so shove it up your ass you worthless piece of shit christian. Lucky for you this is the internet, because I would shut you up really quick if you were standing there running your mouth to me in person.
You should thank God for the safety of your home and the computer. By the way Jamie, why don't you do like I told Taylor, and go over to Iran and other Muslim Nations and preach to these radical Muslims about the good news of Jesus Christ.
You won't do it will you? What's the matter Jamie, are you too chicken to do so? Jesus has commanded you christians to go and spread his gospel to all nations? Why do you disobey your God?
I tell you why, because you are a arrogant, self-righteous American Christian who thinks "Nobody can totuch me, because I am an American Christian, and America is "One Nation Under God".
You are a bible beating coward who is too chicken shit to leave the comfort of his nice suburban home and go out and really spread the gospel. You are a coward Jamie.
I dare you to quote scripture to some radical Muslim's face.
You don't have the guts to do so. Ch-Ch-Ch-Chicken!
All American Christians are cowards who run their mouths. All American Christians hide behind their computers and the walls of their churches. You probably drive an expensive SUV with a fish on the back of it, and you run your mouth on a cell phone while you drive down the road.
If a radical Muslim held a gun to your head or the heads of any member of your family, and told you to reject Christ or he will kill you or one of your family members, you'd start squalling like a baby, and you'd reject Christ within one minute. I guarantee it.
Of course, you don't think God would ever allow that to happen, because you are an arrogant "American Christian" who believes that nobody can touch you.
You hide behind this governments military. That is the only thing that protects arrogant American Christians like you. Not God.
"If it is false big deal."
"Did you read the Bible verses"
Sure I did, back a long time ago, when I didn't know any better. Back when I lived in fear of your God. Which I am now free of.
You fail to see that most people who post on here were once just like you. Most people on this site have read the bible and most have been a part of your faith in the past. We no longer subscribe to your beliefs and we now see just how dangerous the christian cult really is.
You asked:
"So what is the harm in talking about what it says."
This site was designed for those who no longer have any desire to be a part of the christian faith.
People like myself have no desire to here bible scripture. This site was not created for christians. It was designed for ex-christians who no longer want anything more to do with the christian faith.
When you post here, you accomplish absolutely nothing. Instead you anger others, and you make all of us resent your faith even more. You will not convert anyone back to the faith by what you are doing on here.
The best thing you can do is shake the dust off your feet, and leave this site. You are spinning your wheels Jamie. None of us are receiving what you are saying, so the best thing to do is what your bible teaches christians to do. Shake the dust off your feet, and leave town.
The more you preach on here, the more resistance you will find.
You'll only be setting yourself up to get flamed some more.
Chill out dude. Take a break.
I have been out of the country. The last mission trip i went on was to the Philippines.
We did a medical clinic for 7 days.
I took one local dr. and many nurses and we helped many Phlipinos in Dipolog.
I also gave my basketball shoes to a former Muslim sniper who is now a born again Christian.
I was very humbled to be with those wonderful people.
We helped Christian and mostly non Christians in this area.
Our church has been over there 3 times since. 2001.
WE also have made several trips to Gulfport Miss. after Katrina helping to rebuild homes.
Just a few things, i am not bragging but since you just straight up judged me i thought i would respond.
You said, "You don't have the guts to do so. Ch-Ch-Ch-Chicken!"
I also speak at several maximum security prisons, what have you done lately.
I am not trying to covert anybody, what is the harm in talking.
You guys seem so mad.
It is really sad.
Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others...
Perhaps not, since you are all into J.J. Packer, but you are definitely preaching.
"You guys seem so mad. It is really sad."
Why is appearing to be angry something to be sad about? Let me ask you, non-evangelizing-constantly-posting-Calvinist, if dozens of Muslims a day were posting on your little blog, telling you that you must repent and join the true religion -- Islam -- or you were going to hell, and that without Allah you are lost and hopeless and have no meaning in your life, etc., And these Muslims kept posting this type of rhetoric day and night, never engaging in real coversation, not caring what the other person's perspective might be, intent on presenting THE GOSPEL, and this went on tirelessly for six years...
Well, how do you think you would feel?
"Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others..."
Don't take offense, but you are quite arrogant in assuming you have the slightest inkling of how anyone on a website actually feels based soley on the tone of someone's writing on a blog. I think you mistake frustration with hatred. And I think you come off as superior in your own mind.
How convenient it must be to accuse of hatred all those who think your religion is ridiculous. And then how nice it must be to look at others who are recovering from addiction to the Christian cult and feel superior! Like any addict, you think the non-addicted are missing out on something wonderful What you don't realize is the drug has made your mind incapable of thinking rationally when it comes to your drug -- a.k.a., religion.
I’m assuming we’re talking about the bible here. (I couldn’t be bothered to read through most of Jamie’s original ranting posts, so thanks, Advocate.)
I don’t think talking about what the bible says is harmful. Well, not here, anyway where there’s no danger of any souls being won for Christ.
I do think it’s a waste of time, though. Not that there’s anything wrong with wasting some time arguing with the faithful if it entertains you.
What Jamie and Taylor and the rest of the bible-quoting trolls don’t get *STILL* is that we aren’t impressed by their holy book. At all. Not even a little bit.
Even if we grant that Jesus was a real person, which is iffy at best, that still doesn’t prove the bible’s truth. Fiction writers reference real people and events in novels all the time but their books are still shelved in the fiction section in libraries and bookstores.
We consider the “Holy Bible” to be fiction. Get it? Quoting it to us is like quoting from a Stephen King novel to prove that monsters live in the fog sometimes.
This has been a clue. Please pick up on it.
I am not trying to covert anybody, what is the harm in talking.(?)
Dear "Jamie Steele",
I suspect that you, like our resident troll, "Taylor", have the cyber-equivilent of corncobs jammed in your ears, which might be, roofing joists jammed in your eyes.
Look, even if you've not taken the time to read any of the testimonies here---you've been told by at least one poster - not to mention - it should be implicit, that we've examined the Christian belief and we've determined to be false. Um, EX-christian.net?
To help you comprehend "the why", well, it's essentially for many of the same reasons that you've determine every other religion but your own to be false. We simply don't see credible evidence; and we know what it means to compartmentalize.
So no, there's no real "harm" in talking about religion. But honestly, it's quite bothersome when people like you come in here casting aspersions and thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, while insisting that you are only here to "talk about" things. In other words, you're off to a horrible start.
J.S.: You guys seem so mad.
It is really sad.
Um, yeah...we've been lied to, and in some cases, even threatened, by friends and family members---let alone, the belief itself. Anyway, for many, this abuse went on for great portions of our lives. We have a reason to be angry. See here, and don't dawdle.
J.S.: Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others...
Yeah, I used to tell people the same thing..e.g..that they are "lost". And admittedly, I, like you right now, "Jamie", couldn't see how rude and condescending that was. Oh, and before you go on with, "yeah, but you guys cuss, and swear"...yada, yada, I suggest you bear in mind that YOU CAME HERE.
Nonetheless, if you can't see our position, I ask you to do one of two things: a) Simply provide convincing evidence that your religion is the Objective Universal Truth(with references/sources), or b) Click the little red "x" in the corner of your browser. M'kay?
Bye now.
"Don't take this as an offense but even when i was lost i didn't have this much hate in my heart for others..."
You have to understand Jamie, that when you continue to not respect the wishes of others on here to be left alone that is what causes anger.
You would react the same way if someone continued to harass you about being an atheist. How would you like if a bunch of atheists came into your church and started preaching and talking bad about your faith? You would get angry too wouldn't you?
That is the only reason why you are getting such hostile replies on here. This site is not designed for you to spread the gospel.
A lot of people use this site to seek refuge away from the very thing that you believe in. A lot of us have been deeply hurt and wounded by christianity.
That is what you are failing to realize Jamie. Some of us have been deeply hurt by christianity and anytime someone comes onto this site preaching and quoting scripture it only rips the scabs off of those wounds.
You are basically pouring salt into the wounds of these same people. Sorry to tell you this, but we do not see christianity as a good thing.
I for one feel it oppresses anyone who is part of the GLBT Community, and it takes away the rights and freedoms to be oneself. I have learned to love and accpet others regardless of what they believe.
Christianity hurts people more than it helps them. It divides people and it causes discrimination towards people who choose to live an alternative lifestyle.
People need to love and accept others for who they are, not what they choose to believe.
I hope you guys have a great day and cheer up a little bit.
Life is not all that bad.
Seems like Atheism has a long way to go to equal the "abundant life Jesus gives".
I have been a Christian for 17years and i can honestly say I love Jesus more today than then.
My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well.
I will leave you with a quote from a former atheist
"The hallmark of intelligence is not whether one believes in God or not, but the quality of the processes that underlie one’s beliefs."
— Alister McGrath
"Seems like Atheism has a long way to go to equal the "abundant life Jesus gives".
Jamie,
I happen to be agnostic, however I can't say that I have ever found an abundant life when it comes to Jesus. All I have ever found is rejection due to the fact that I am a "Transsexual Lesbian" which is something that would make most christians skin crawl.
I will tell you in all honesty Jamie, and I don't expect you to understand this, however I can truly say that ever since I opened up my mind and left Conservative Christianity, like Advocate was saying, I have learned not to judge others just because they don't subscribe to a certain belief.
Since leaving christianity, I have also learned to love others unconditionally, and I have learned to see certain beauties in people that I was not able to see as a christian.
Plus as a christian, I was miserable. I was afraid to become my true self which is "Mandy" due to the fact that most chrisitians would look down on a "Transsexual Lesbian", so I lived in bondage scared to death to be my true self, and I got no where in life.
Now I no longer live in the fear of being tossed into hell, and I am more happy, more outgoing, and more loving than I ever was as a christian male. That is the honest truth.
Jamie Wrote:
"My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well."
Well if it works for you then that's great, however it didn't work for me, and it doesn't work for some people.
I mean you no harm Jamie, even though you may think that someone like me is detestable, however I hope the day comes when people can learn to love and accept my kind.
I am a very loving person, and I hate nobody, and that includes christians. I have no regrets for being my true self, and I am more happy than I have ever been in my whole entire life.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
Have a good day. :)
In this case, I'll believe it when I don't see it. Nonetheless, I'm near certain you'll be back to read the comments, so, moving right along....
Jamie Steele...I hope you guys have a great day and cheer up a little bit.
When Christians put up, or shut up, it'll be a "great day" here on EX-christian.net. Meanwhile, we get "cheer" from all the same things that you get "cheer" from, when not engaged in religious discussion. In other words, one needn't be superstitious or religious to get happiness and "cheer" from family, friends, careers, hobbies, etc., etc.
'Get it, now?
Jamie Steele...Life is not all that bad.
'Pardon?...who said "life" IS "all that bad"??? Again, this is merely another strawman; it is merely you, the Christian, projecting your own distorted view of what it means to be Atheist.
Jamie Steele...Seems like Atheism has a long way to go to equal the "abundant life Jesus gives".
LMAO! Um, seems like you've got a long way to go before you figure out that the only place "Jesus" exists, is underneath your skullcap.
Jamie Steele...I have been a Christian for 17 years..
Uh huh, and do you realize that many children believe that "Santa Claus" is real for around half that long. So?...does that therefore mean that there's a 50% chance that "Santa" is real??? No, of course not. In other words, longevity of belief says NOTHING about whether said belief has a referent in reality. Or put another way; whoopty-shit.
Jamie Steele......and i can honestly say I love Jesus more today than then.
Goody for you!
Jamie Steele...My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well.
Yes! yes!..your "faith" is stronger than ever---just like a Mormon's "faith" is stronger than ever; just like a Muslim's "faith" is stronger than ever. Now, are you convinced that the latter two instances have anything to do with reality?
Jamie Steele...I will leave you with a quote from a former atheist
News flash: EVERY religious person is a "former Athiest"; you came into this world without the belief in "God"....i.e.."Atheist"
Jamie Steele quotes: "The hallmark of intelligence is not whether one believes in God or not, but the quality of the processes that underlie one’s beliefs." — Alister McGrath
Listen, if you can tell me what mental "processes" to employ that make one "faith" valid, WITHOUT making myriad other religious "faiths" equally valid, then I'll be happy to have a listen. Otherwise, I can't see believing in something for which there is no convincing evidence as all that "intelligent". If fact, I see the idea as quite silly, as well as dangerous.
"I have been out of the country. The last mission trip i went on was to the Philippines.
We did a medical clinic for 7 days.
I took one local dr. and many nurses and we helped many Phlipinos in Dipolog.
I also gave my basketball shoes to a former Muslim sniper who is now a born again Christian."
Still Jamie, I'm sure you went to places where your church figured would be the safest places to go.
Why don't you take a step in faith and go over to Iran or Iraq and spread the good news of Jebus over there? I'm sure that would be more of a challenge to you.
Then again, I'm sure you will not go where it is not safe.
As far as the prison ministry is concerned, big deal. So what? I know lots of christians who have done the old prison ministry that has tons of Armed Prison Guards to keep you from getting harmed or attacked.
Jamie Steele Said:
"what have you done lately."
I've helped educate people on how to prosper and live a productive life without fear of a some jealous and insecured ass hole God who is going to toss people into hell if they don't kiss his ass and suck his dick for him.
Unlike you, I don't go around spreading superstition, fear, and lies to people about the big bad voodoo daddy in the sky.
I am also willing to bet that you come back here to debate some more of us, or defend yourself.
Although Jesus taught christians to be fishers of men, most of them would rather stay in safe waters instead of going into Shark Infested Waters.
Looking back over one of Jamie Steele's previous comments:
"I also gave my basketball shoes to a former Muslim sniper who is now a born again Christian."
I tell you what Jamie, go over to Iran and Iraq and convert every single Muslim over there to christianity. Why don't you try that?
Here is a better and safer idea you should try. Instead of giving the former Muslim Sniper your basketball shoes, why don't you do something bigger and better than that? Anyone can give away a pair of shoes.
Why don't you invite your new christian friend "The former Muslim Sniper" to come live with you and your family and provide him a place to live? After all God says to "Love thy neighbor as thyself". If you refuse to do so, then you are not "loving thy neighbor as thyself".
Then again, why don't you just sell your house or just give your house to your christian friend (The former Muslim Sniper)? The bible does say "To sell your possesions and give them to the poor".
I challenge you to do so. God's law commands it. I suggest you obey.
I have been a Christian for 17years and i can honestly say I love Jesus more today than then.
My faith is stronger than ever and I hope someday you guys can experience this as well
----
Jamie,
Boomslang made some very good points to you, but of course you'll fail to see they were valid.
In the meanwhile, let me tell you the story about "Frog Soup", which may help you realize why you get more and more acclimated into the god-bubble as time goes on (REF: 17 years of god service).
Frog Soup
You decide one evening that you would like to make some Frog Soup.
(Yeah I know, it's not for everyone)
So you bring home a live frog to cook.
(Don't ask why the frog you bought wasn't already dead)
Anyway, you now get a big pot of water and put it on the stove and wait for it to boil.
(Keep in mind here that a watched-pot never boils)
You turn your back for just a moment, so the water will boil sooner
(This is another superstition, just like the belief in a god)
You reach into box the frog came in, and holding it firmly in your hand, you drop the squirming frog into the boiling water.
(This process of killing rarely bothers most xtians we've met here)
You are amazed when the frog doesn't admit it's defeated and it leaps from the boiling water and escapes through the backdoor you failed to close.
(Calling the frog to come back to you at this point, usually is ineffective)
You now reconcile yourself to eating leftovers for dinner.
(However, you maintain a blind faith that somehow the frog will find it's way into your neighbors boiling pot of water and are okay with this idea)
The next day it's obvious the frog isn't going to come back to be your dinner, so you go out and purchase another living frog to cook.
(You hold a hope that the first frog isn't telepathically connected to the second frog, and will mentally warn it of your intentions)
This time you fill the pot with tepid water and place it on the stoves cold burner and very gently place the frog in the tepid water, where it seems content to just swim around and not jump out.
(You wonder why you didn't use this method the previous evening)
You now turn on the stove's burner and the water very slowly grows warmer and warmer.
(You stand ready to catch the frog when it notices the water is getting too warm)
You notice bubbles starting to cling to the pot's surface and stick your finger in the water to sense it's temperature. The water is now almost hot enough to burn your finger, yet the frog just sits there staring into space, unaware of it's predicament.
(You are confused why the frog hasn't tried to escape it's fate)
The water starts to boil, the frog is no longer alive and is fast approaching your dinner plate.
(You now are convinced that humans are far superior to frogs, as you are certain you would have jumped from the pot when things got a bit too steamy for you)
How does my frog soup story relate to our human experiences in life?
Okay, let me explain how this story applies to us then.
Let's look at how most companies function, when they are looking to make drastic changes in their policy towards employee benefits etc..
Most companies are very aware if they try to reach their ultimate goal of implementing those drastic changes all at once, that they will anger many employees and many of them will quit their jobs and move on; possibly to a competitor.
So what do companies do instead.
They spread the desired changes out over a LONG period of time, allowing the employees to mentally adjust to each benefit item being reduced, or removed.
After some predetermined (but acceptable) period of time, the company has succeeded in reducing those benefits, all without losing many employees in the process.
Many goals in this life can be obtained using this frog soup method.
If you wish to brainwash someone into a new way of thinking about something, the best method is to expose them to just one idea at a time, wait for them to accept this idea, then feed them the next idea, and so forth.
Eventually you will have convinced this person that this new way of thinking is correct.
If you had instead tried to deliver all your ideas at the same time, they would have seen through the fallacy of your plan.
Getting someone to buy into some form of religious dogma, is best done by using this frog soup method. It's far easier to convince trusting children that your dogma is factual, but even adult minds can be brainwashed by this very slow frog soup process.
The idea, that you believe it's noteworthy to say you've been a xtian for 17 years, only says to me that some xtians had this long length of time to feed your mind the ideas they wished to brainwash you with.
If they had tried to impart upon you 18 years ago, the full blown dogma you now have accepted as being true, you most likely would have balked at their attempt and easily seen the fallacy in this overall dogma and the bible stories etc..
Instead, you were fed this dogma in a piecemeal fashion, and were given time to accept each new piece before having it added to by the next piece.
So, just as I said about companies playing this game of frog soup with their employees, in order to gain their acceptance of some new ideas/rules, the xtian believers in your life got you to accept their creeds by using this same tried and true method of instilling into your mind, what they wished you to swallow.
Right now, you are still like that frog sitting in a pot of water, who's is unaware of it's ignorance, and thinks it's fate is in good hands.
Instead of the bible boiling away your physical life (as it did the frog), it is slowly boiling away your ability to see the world in a rational manner.
It has succeeded in installing a filter in your mind, such that all your views/opinions of the world, have to be seen through this special god-filter.
If this god-filtered brainwashing of your mind wasn't true, you would have no problem seeking out non-biblical evidence about the validity of your god/jesus existence.
You wouldn't be conveniently ignoring all the missing history that clearly show your human jesus never walked this earth;let alone as some son-of-a-god.
Ahhh, but because the brainwashing of your mind has been so thorough, you are convinced that only your bible contains the truths of this world and any truths that differ from the bible, are surely being spread around by your bible devil.
To you, it's just inconceivable that the universe didn't require a magical god to create it.
To you, there is no problem with your super god always having existed, but you can't accept that the matter of the universe also might have always existed.
To you, it's far more likely that some being that has infinite powers of all kinds, would have just come about, with no external forces needed to create this god being.
Ah, but at the same time, you find it impossible that matter of this universe, which contains no special infinite powers, could exist without some god having formed it.
I guess to god believers, it's far more likely for something beyond extraordinary, to always have existed, rather than something commonplace to do the same.
For you, no proof of your god is needed, as you've been well taught to just accept things from your bible, as-is.
See, for the rest of us though, we NEED proof that something is factual before we can accept it as being of reality.
At the very least, the influence/actions your god is claimed to render upon our physical existence, should be apparent and provable to everyone.
Is there anything of this physical world that ever took place, that couldn't possibly have happened without some supernatural forces making that thing happen?
If all those miracles in your bible really happened and didn't affect this free will you will claim we have, then why don't we see those same type of miracles today (outside of hearsay)?
Why is your god so shy about proving his existence to those of us that failed to be brainwashed into your doctrine?
Why is it very necessary for one to shut down their cognitive thinking in order to FEEL god?
Why is it that the only proof your god offers anyone, exists only as FEELINGS alone?
Answer me these questions, Mister Jamie, I DARE YOU !!
ATF (Who has become the frog who escaped the hot pot)
That was a great analogy with the frog soup. Just a wonderful post within a post.I lost one of my best friends to the Christian cult and it happened very slowly over time. It was years from the time he started going to church to the time he became a Christian zombie who could no longer think for himself. His mind was ever so slowly heated to the bullshit. This friend will no longer speak to me because I am part of his evil past.
He would love Jamie.
I am happy to say despite the fact that I may have jumped in the pot, the water never got very warm. The heating element always went on the fritz before the water got hot. Tepid was a warm as it got. In other words my mind would never fully buy into the bullshit of Christianity. Tepid God belief is a far as I slid.
xrayman (couldn't get the thing to work right so I had to post anonymous)
I lost one of my best friends to the Christian cult and it happened very slowly over time. It was years from the time he started going to church to the time he became a Christian zombie who could no longer think for himself
---
Hi there Xray',
Sorry to hear about your blogger login difficulties.
Also, thanks much for your kind words on my "Frog Soup" Story. I thought it was quite a fitting analogy for religious brainwashing, even though I've mostly heard it applied to the workplace, in my time.
As with you, I also 'lost' a good friend a long time ago to xtian brainwashing.
At first it didn't seem his interest in jesus was anymore than a passing fancy, but then one weekend he went on this xtian "Retreat", to some isolated out-in-the-country location.
He came back all excited about his new found 'friends' and was convinced these evangelicals knew the secret path to reaching jesus etc..
I was still then a 'believer' in jesus; although at that point in time it was more an intellectual pursuit, rather than an emotional endeavor.
While he did try at first to rope-me into attending one of the Retreat functions, he soon had to settle for my paying a one time visit to his new church.
Well, one time was enough for me, as I saw fairly clearly that these folks didn't arrive at their beliefs by using their noggins, but instead were driven by sheer emotions alone.
The only difference between your x-friend and mine, is that I still hear from this friend now and then, but he knows better than to broach the subject of religion to me. While I never told him I'm an atheist, I think he figured it out anyway.
ATF (Who also realized when the religious "pot of water", was getting a bit too toasty)
The most ironic thing that happened to my friend is the fact that he was the cheapest bastard I have ever known, yet in his born again life he freely gives 10%.
Like your friend he hung out with me and his old gang for many years trying to get us hooked on Jesus every step of the way and like you said we all thought it was a passing fancy. He was the absolute worst salesman for Jebus in the world. He became this Bible quoting robot. I don't even think he knew what the fuck he was saying, but he certainly did a real disservice to his cause. When ever I would ask him a few basic questions about his faith he couldn't deal with them and he would shut down. Back then I did profess God belief, just not the Christian God belief and he stated so many times that I was destined for eternal damnation without Jebus. To me it was sometimes real good comedy trying to take him seriously.
The last straw came when he married an uptight bitch from his church who in a sense brainwashed him into thinking all his old friends were evil. It just really sucked losing a friend who was like a brother to me since I was seven. My life would be complete if my friend gave me a call one fine day and said, "Bill, I was wrong !!!!" Let's hang out.
xrayman
See ya in hell!
HA!HA!HA!HA!
Doesn't scripture tell you that you are not to appeare as evil?
1 Thessalonians 5:22
"Abstain from all appearance of evil."
See, you'd be in there too.
Good thing it doesn't exist.
Shame really.
Oh and as for the Iraq/Iran comment...
Reasearch: Dave Roben.
He has lead faith teams of various non violent faiths; christians bah'ai and buddhist amoungst them, into both those countries and other Islam locked countries.
He has been threatened by gunmen and the like, and lived through it.
At last word he was leading a team to the 'death for owning a bible, never mind speaking from it' region of The Maldives.
2 things as I roam away looking for more inteligent debate than can be found on this cesspool of misinformation:
1) Won't be back, so the attempted witty and dispulsive responses are a waste of time
2) 'Zombie Jesus' still watches over ya's
This is my opinion on your "born again" experience. I think you didn't understand what you have just accepted. Maybe you were just swayed by your friends or from people around you when you accepted Christ but in your heart, you don't really understand it and you are not ready yet. Being born again doesn't stop when you first accepted Christ. You must read the bible constantly to more about God and His love for us. God is a loving God and He cares for you and me. And then you ask, why does bad things happen to me? or to good people? Things happen for a purpose, God didn't create us to be robots, He gave us freewill and understanding. Not every ideas we have is good for us or is the will of God. Only then if we pursue that idea and that idea is not the will of God for us, then trouble comes in. But God always show us a way out from the mess we created and He rebuke us with love that only He can do, not our friends or family. God is real and is bigger than this world. If you don't believe in the resurrection of Christ, read the book of Acts. it tell about the encounter of Paul with the resurrected Christ.
"to Skyeyes and to all x-christians:
This is my opinion on your "born again" experience. I think you didn't understand what you have just accepted."
And I think you're wrong.
There, we're even.
"You must read the bible constantly to more about God and His love for us..."
You mean, the Bible that talks about the "loving" god who drowned the planet and ordered the genocide of the Amakalites?
You see, we do know the Bible after all. Surprise!
"God didn't create us to be robots... Not every ideas we have is good for us or is the will of God."
So you're saying that we are *not* robots, yet subject to "the will of God"? Explain the contradiction, please.
"God is real and is bigger than this world."
Unsupported assertion. Prove the above statement without resorting to the Bible, apologetics, or subjective personal experiences. Your evidence must be obtained via a double-blind study with full documentation, and capable of being duplicated in similar experiments by research teams. "Faith" doesn't cut it around here.
1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4 Will evildoers never learn—
those who devour my people as men eat bread
and who do not call on the LORD
5 There they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge.
7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
**********************************
You don't even know the right spelling of Amalekites, you wrote "Amakelites", now who's reading the bible now?
God punished these people because of their sins. These people woship another god, besides the God of heaven and earth. They don't know that the Almighty God is a jealous God and He punishes those who do not acknowledge Him. And you are one of them.
"God is real and is bigger than this world".
here are the supporting verses:
Yahweh is omnipresent. He said, “Do I not fill heaven and earth? Yahweh [the Lord] demands?” (Jeremiah 23:24, NJB). He also said, "The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool" (Isaiah 66:1; see also Acts 7:49).
let's see if you can digest that.
Does that makes you realized that there is a supreme being who created this world?
God is a spirit and there's a spirit within us. That's why we don't just pray with your mouth but with your spirit. The Holy Spirit has given every born again believer the gift of speaking in a different tongues. Nobody understands it because it's the the Spirit of God talking to your Spirit.
Which of the following is true about you?
1) I am in grade school.
2) I am a sock puppet.
3) I am utterly clueless.
Just trying to save some time here...
none of the above.
And how do you classify yourself?
Ok Jim, I'll let you know some of the truths. It's easy to say you don't believe God because He is invisible (spirit) and we can't see Him. People would like to see a tangible God so they can believe that He exist. To see is to believe. right?
I compared it to air, because people tend to believe that there is presence of air (the air we breathe) in the atmosphere, which is true, but does anybody here have seen a tangible air? Now, tell me why you don't believe that God exist but you believe that there is air around us.
*********************************
The reason why the "Spirit realm" exist is because I experienced it when I worked in Singapore. I went to bed late one night and awoke in my sleep realizing that there is a ghost on the side of the bed standing looking at me, even touch my hand. The ghost is like floating in the air as was portrayed in some movies. I kind dismissed it and blinked several times but the ghost is still there. When I lean on the bed to move, the ghost walked towards the wall and banished. It happened to me twice. I came into conclusion that the Spirit Realm exist!
You may laugh at me or dismissed this as fraud but it is the truth.
"ghost" are "spirits" and they are in the Spirit Realm just as God is.
read this passage in the bible in Matthew:
Jesus Walks on Water:
After feeding the five thousand, Jesus sends his disciples ahead of him in a boat to cross the Sea of Galilee. Several hours later in the night, the disciples encounter a storm. Jesus comes to them, walking on the water. This terrifies the disciples and they think they are seeing a ghost. Jesus tells them in verse 27, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."
Peter replies, "Lord, if it's you, tell me to come to you on the water." So Jesus invites Peter to come. Peter gets out of the boat and begins walking on the water toward Jesus. But when Peter takes his eyes off Jesus and sees the wind and waves, he begins to sink. Peter cries out to the Lord and Jesus immediately reaches out his hand and catches Peter. As they climb into the boat together, the storm ceases. Then the disciples worship Jesus, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
I'll substitute the word opinion for truth here, if you don't mind.
April: "It's easy to say you don't believe God because He is invisible (spirit) and we can't see Him."
But who would say such an infantile thing? You've just erected a straw man.
April: "People would like to see a tangible God so they can believe that He exist. To see is to believe. right?"
No. I've never seen an atom, but I have good reason to believe they exist. I've never seen a (living) dinosaur, but I have good reason to believe they existed. I've never seen a glacier carve out a lake, or a galaxy form, or a black hole swallow a star... Get it? But the one thing all of these have in common is objective evidence.
April: "Now, tell me why you don't believe that God exist but you believe that there is air around us."
Sorry, April, but that's got to be the dumbest question I've heard in a long time. Fill a sink with water, push a cup upside down into the water, then turn it. What do you see? Bubbles. Wave your hand near a lighted candle. See the flame flicker? Put your hand out the window of your car as you drive down the highway. Feel the force? Look at smoke particles under a microscope. See them dance around? I could go on and on. The existence of air can be objectively demonstrated in thousands of ways. We can make precise predictions about how it will behave according to pressure and temperature. PV = nRT anyone?
Now for god. I have never in my life seen ONE SCRAP of credible evidence for invisible spirits of ANY description; therefore, I have absolutely no reason to believe such exists.
Questions?
April: "The reason why the 'Spirit realm' exist is because I experienced it when I worked in Singapore."
Surely you mean "the reason I believe the "Spirit realm" exists...", right?
April: "I went to bed late one night and awoke in my sleep realizing that there is a ghost on the side of the bed standing looking at me, even touch my hand. The ghost is like floating in the air as was portrayed in some movies....I came into conclusion that the Spirit Realm exist!"
I see. Have you also concluded that alien abductions are real? Many people are absolutely convinced that they have been abducted. Do you discount their testimonies? Or those who have experienced Krishna?
April: "You may laugh at me or dismissed this as fraud but it is the truth."
I believe that you believe what you just said. As for it being credible evidence of ghosts... no. Not until you show that you are a very trustworthy observer, and that the circumstances were such that you could not have been mistaken, tricked, or deluded. Even then,