Sent in by ChrisI have been a believer in Christ for more than 15 years and now I must explain what has happened to my faith. There have been a lot of questions from family and friends, so I wrote this letter as an explanation of sorts. To put it bluntly, I don’t believe in God anymore. To finally come out and say that ‘I do not believe’ has been one of the most heart wrenching experiences of my life. I have been a zealous Christian apologist and I know most of the arguments in favor of the Christian faith intimately. I have a cross tattooed on my arm with the Greek letters for Christ above it. I know many of the key Bible verses in the original Greek as well as English. I am very familiar with all of the church history and the ‘evidences’, and have used them in debates with others who were not Christian. I have at times been a youth leader and have filled in worship leader playing guitar or bass. I have lead small group studies; my evangelical credentials are obvious to all who know me. Please understand, if I could still believe, I would, if for no other reason than it would make life a lot less complicated. Nearly all of my friends and family are strong, dedicated Christian believers and now it seems I am at odds with them. I have questioned myself, am I doing the right thing? Just how much do I doubt the existence of God, the veracity of scripture, and the Gospel message? I am still the same person you knew before, my character has not changed, only my religious beliefs have changed.
I have been fighting this decision for a long time and have gone through periods of trying to “seek the truth and draw close to God” to varying levels of unbelief and back again. God never answered my prayers or spoke to me, so he wasn’t much help when I tried to seek him out. And all the faith in the world was not answering some of the fundamental questions I was having about religion. What follows from here are my reasons for abandoning my belief in God. It is not my intent to convince anyone to see my point of view, only to explain how I arrived at my conclusion. My arguments were developed from others who shared with me their stories of deconversion.
As a Christian I believed in God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as a Trinity; angels and demons; prophesy; and the coming judgment and heaven and hell. I believed in the Genesis account of the creation, in a 6000-year-old earth, in Adam and Eve, Noah and his ark, in Elijah and in Elisha. I believed I was chosen by God for eternal life by faith in Christ, in supernatural healings, in words of knowledge, in speaking in tongues, freewill, and in the Bible as God’s perfect revealed word. I was as mainstream Evangelical Christian as the next person with just as orthodox theology as everyone else. I believed in all these things and thought anyone who did not believe in them was a fool. When I met people who believed in another religion or in no religion at all, I was dumfounded as to how they could not see the apparent simple truth and beauty of CHRISTIANITY, because “only a fool says there is not God”. I would think to myself that, “God had put a ‘veil’ over their eyes” or that God had “Hardened their hearts” to the His Truth.
My path to atheism began as I worked on my master’s degree in ancient history. As a student of ancient history, I learned about ancient civilizations and cultures and their attendant mythologies. I wondered how those people could believe in such bizarre stories of gods and goddesses, monsters and demons and fantastical creatures. How could any rational person believe in such wildly absurd things? I never considered the stories I believed in the Bible were just as peculiar as these other ancient tales. I learned that nearly every culture had some form of religion and that religion evolved as a way for man to make sense of his universe. There have literally been tens of thousands of ‘gods’ who have been worshiped at one point or another over the course of human history. People didn’t know how lightning was formed or the mechanics of plate tectonics that cause earthquakes, or why rainbows exist so they invented gods that controlled these “mystically powerful” forces that they could not understand. Some civilizations had hundreds of gods, for fertility, weather, the sun, the harvest, death, and the list goes on. Other cultures decided against the pantheon had just one god that controlled everything himself. As mankind’s understanding and knowledge grows, his needs for a god or god’s to explain the unexplained decreases. Greek sailors don’t need to sacrifice bulls to appease Poseidon before setting out to sea; they just need to check the weather channel first. All of this is summed up succinctly in a quote from the 1700’s makes so much sense to me now:
"If we go back to the beginning we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them, and that custom, respect and tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve their own interests."
"If ignorance of Nature gave birth to gods, then knowledge of Nature is calculated to destroy them."
- Baron d’Holbach
Man has been searching for explanations since he learned rub sticks together and make fire. Fire was magic at first, but we all know it is a chemical reaction caused by friction and combustible materials in an oxygen rich environment; no fire-god is required. This is a common thread through all of human history. One of the biggest unknown things that man has tried to explain is death. All sentient beings have within them a strong desire to live. Animals don’t commit suicide, and humans as highly intelligent animals, have a strong desire to live. It is this desire to live on that gave birth to the idea of an afterlife. For all living creatures death is inevitable. But because humans are so completely self aware and have the mental ability to contemplate our own deaths, we desire to live forever. Even faith-strong elderly Christians who believe they are going to heaven the very moment they die, wish to stay alive, this is common to all or mankind.
Our death does not need an explanation; it is simply a natural part of life. The Norse had Valhalla, Egyptians the Underworld, Hindu reincarnation, Muslims Paradise, Christians Heaven, and the Jews resurrection. All of these were made by man to give him hope of some way to live on forever. I realized through my study of history that Christianity was but one of a long string of religious ideas that have been around for thousands of years and is in no way unique. I didn’t believe all the weird improbable stories of other ancient religions or myths. Julius Caesar was reportedly born of a virgin; Roman historian Suetonius said the Caesar Augustus bodily rose to heaven after he died; and the Buddha was supposedly born with the ability to speak, Mohammad was a merchant who was visited by angles who gave him the Koran as was Joseph Smith and I dismiss all of these accounts as fables, myths, or outright lies, but accepted the Bible as absolute truth.
Believing in God might give people an inner strength not available to the atheist. In a similar way, believing in Santa Claus gives a certain magic to Christmas morning not available to the non-Santa-believing child. There may be strength in believing in something, but believing in something, no matter how deeply, does not make that something a reality. Faith does not equal reality.
At first it was terrifying for me to think that the universe is an impersonal place with no plan for the future. If there is no eternal plan, then one day the sun will die, and along with it, all life here on Earth. Humans have a deep need for something to believe in, for a purpose, and it was this need that kept me in the church for as long as it did. I know the Christian response well. This desire to believe is proof of mans “God shaped hole in his soul”, that God formed us with a need to have communion with him. I have used that line and believed it myself for a long time.
Believing in God might be more comforting; giving a worldview that has eternal hopes and possibilities, but again, believing in things even if everyone else does too, doesn't make those things true. Just as children eventually leave behind belief in Santa and the Easter Bunny and tooth fairy, I have left my belief in an invisible omnipresent, omniscient God that dwells in my heart and intervenes in my life. Belief in God is nothing more than a method to provide answers to questions that are unanswerable. Like, what happens when we die? Or, what is the point of life.”
When I see someone walking down the street talking seriously to himself, I could rightfully judged him to be mentally ill. When I hear children talking to imaginary friends or their dolls, I think they are being cute, but it’s a childish behavior. When I heard people in church, including me, talking to Almighty invisible God, I thought that was perfectly normal. I thought that way because I was taught to think that way. A 5 year old that believes in Santa in cute, a 40 year old that does is mentally ill and in need of medication. Why do most children believe in Santa but no sane adults do? The answer is simple. Our parents and culture taught us to believe. We are not born with any knowledge of Santa so we were taught about him as we grow up. We were told that he sees us when were sleeping, knows if we have been bad or good, and brings presents to all the good children of the world. We sing songs about Santa and leave offerings of cookies and milk. Savvy parents can use this belief in Santa to great effect in the fall and winter to get kids to behave lest Santa find out and leave a lump of coal and not a train set. But as we grew older we started to have questions, logical ones that most of us develop around 6 or 7 years old. How does Santa fit down a chimney? How can he eat all of the cookies people leave for him? How can he fit all of those toys on his sled? Why have I never seen him? The questions have no rational answers so gradually it becomes apparent even for young children that Santa is make believe. It is a spirit of goodwill and magic that children can enjoy but wears off as they grow up. But while children stop believing in Santa due to a total absence of any empirical, verifiable evidence of the miraculous claims, people continue to believe in a God who has all of the same features as Santa with no more evidence of existence than an ancient book and what our parents or friends taught us.
I believed that Christianity was the answer to life and the absolute truth. But now I find it irrational to think I believed in a God who created all of the universe in six literal days; that women were created from a man’s rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush all spoke a human language; the entire world was flooded and mankind exterminated like so many cockroaches, covering the highest mountains to drown out evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat together; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile river turned to blood and it rained frogs; witches, wizards, and sorcerers really exist with real powers; food rained from the sky for 40 years; people were cured by the sight of a brass serpent on a pole; the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for King Hezekiah; men survived unscathed in a fiery furnace; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; 3 men followed a star in the sky which directed them to a particular house; Jesus was born of a virgin mother impregnated by a ghost. Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water was turned into wine; mental illness is caused by demons; a “devil” with wings exists who causes all evil; demons can possess animals; people were healed by stepping into a pool stirred up by angels; disembodied voices spoke from the sky; Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; people were healed by Peter’s shadow; angels broke people out of jail; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth ... while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.
All of these stories violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond with any reality, common sense or logic. I can see that now, and I can separate truth from fantasy, just like I did with Santa. I know all of the rebuttals; God can perform miracles and do what he pleases so we must have faith in him, or better yet, these God did these miracles and are proof of his existence so that we might “know him and his mighty power”, but Jesus comes and said only wicked people seek a sign or proof to believe, so at what point does the argument become circular? I cannot accept these outlandish Bible stories on “faith” anymore. If God does exist and gave us a rational and inquisitive mind, why would he perform irrational acts that defy the natural laws of his creation and not expect us to question the reality of such acts? As a Christian, I refused to believe any of the extra-Biblical miracles and stories from the ancient world; I don’t know why I never applied the same critical examination to my own beliefs. I wouldn’t believe someone who came up to me and said that a horse spoke to them and neither would you, unless they brought you to the horse and you heard it for yourself. Even then your first reaction would be to look for the hoax, that it was some kind of David Blaine illusion, and not real because you know it is impossible for horses to talk to people. Now, if real, no kidding miracles where happening all the time then it would be plausible to believe the claims in the Bible, because we would live in an irrational universe where irrational actions take place, but alas, we do not. Dead people do not come back to life, men don’t walk on water, and the Sun does not decide to stop in the sky. Coincidences happen, real miracles do not.
The God outlined in the Bible is a warrior God, exactly like so many other ancient tribal religions at the time. Though He allegedly said “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all His opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations of people; he punishes offspring to the fourth generation for their fathers sins (Ex. 20:5); ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16); He made demands for sacrifices of animal and human blood to appease His anger; He is partial to one race of people; judges women to be inferior to men; created a hell to torture unbelievers and sinners for all eternity; created evil (Is. 45:7); discriminated against the handicapped, which he himself made!(Lev. 21:18-23); He ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war and everyone else slaughtered (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14); spread feces on people’s faces (Mal. 2:3); He sent bears to devour children who dared to teas a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); He punishes people with venomous snakes, wild dogs, dragons, drunkenness, the sword, slavery, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10). Was that the picture of the all loving God I served?
Then Jesus came and said, “I and my father are one,” and reaffirmed “every jot and tittle” of the Old Testament law. (Mt. 5:18) He preached the same judgment to come: vengeance and death, wrath and distress, hell and torture for all non-believers. Jesus believed in demons, angels and spirits. He never denounced the subjugation of slaves or women. Women were excluded as disciples and as guests at his heavenly table. Except for hell he introduced nothing new to ethics or philosophy. He was disrespectful of his mother and brothers; he said we should hate our parents and desert our families. (Mt. 10:35-36, Lk. 14:26). He denounced anger, but was often angry himself. (Mt. 5:22, Mk. 3:5) He called people “fools” (Mt. 23:17,19), “serpents,” and “white sepulchers,” though he warned that such language puts you in danger of hell. (Mt. 5:22) He said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Mt. 10:34) He irrationally cursed and withered a fig tree for being barren out of season, but the Gospel writers couldn’t agree if it happened immediately or the next morning. (Mt. 21:19) He mandated burning unbelievers. (Jn. 15:6) He stole a horse. (Lk. 19:30-33) He told people to cut off hands, feet, eyes and sexual organs. (Mt. 5:29-30, 19:12) Jesus said good works should be seen, then not to be seen. (Mt. 5:16, 6:1-4) The writers of Matthew and Luke could not agree on his genealogy, contradicting the Old Testament, and giving Jesus two discrepant lines through Joseph who wasn’t his father anyway.
I began to develop moral problems with my concepts of original sin, total human depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishment. I do not believe it is justice to punish someone with eternal torture for a finite crime. Hell is punitive in its nature, there is no corrective purpose other than to make someone suffer in the most horrific manner possible. Yet I once believed that God was just in pronouncing this judgment upon non-believers. Would you or I approve of torture for a crime? Are God’s ways really higher than ours? As a Christian I would say, “We cannot question God’s righteous judgment”. Yes, in fact I can. And I, along with everyone I know, have a much better sense of justice than the God of the Bible does. The Bible says we are all born sinners, all will sin, and all will die as a punishment. So, God created me sinful, and then condemns me for that sin, and then he offers me the cure! Would I bow down and be eternally thankful to someone who poisoned me when they gave me the antidote?
One of the biggest reasons that lead me to unbelief is the problem of evil and suffering. During a course I took in Ancient Greek Philosophy and History, I learned of a philosopher named Epicurus and his logical arguments against the existence of a God/Gods based on the existence of evil in the world. His logic is explained as such:
If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able to---Then he is not omnipotent
If he is able, but not willing---Then he is malevolent
If he is both able and willing---then where does evil come from?
If he is neither able nor willing---Why call him God?This argument makes complete sense to me and I am no longer a Christian because I cannot reconcile the existence of a loving God with the superfluous nature of evil in our world. If God is so all-knowing he can perceive evil plans while they are but a dim conception, yet he does not impart this knowledge to us, and as a result we suffer. If God is ever-present, he is there when a child is being raped, a pregnant woman murdered, millions being gassed and when an innocent child is hit by a car. God was there in person and did nothing to stop it. If I were in a room where someone was abusing a child and did nothing to stop it, I would be just as guilty of the crime and liable for whatever happened. But we don’t expect God to stop this evil when any thinking and rational human being would step in and intervene. This evident inaction is not the action of an all loving God. If God is real, he is guilty of negligence on a cosmic order. God had the ability to stop the child from being raped and murdered, but was not willing to lift a finger, making him completely malevolent.
If God is all-powerful then he can prevent these evil acts from happening (He can do this and still allow for free will). This means that the tragic loss of life due to natural disasters could be entirely avoided. After all, God is in control of these things isn’t he? So God sends His natural disasters to make havoc on hummanity, how nice of him. Is he ‘proving his power’ by causing so much human misery? And who is there to step in and help the survivors? God? Nope, it’s sinful human beings coming to help their fellow man. All the pointless bloodshed of the 20th century could have also been completely bypassed, if God could only have “opened the doors” for Hitler to become a successful artist in Vienna and adverted the Holocaust for His ‘chosen people’. To me, God's power is not evident. If God is all-knowing, then he knows that his failure to act in opposition to incredible evil and tragedy leads people into a state of unbelief. Yet he provides no rational alternative. If God is all-loving, then He WILL DO SOMETHING to stop evil—not sometime in the distant future, but NOW, as any feeling, caring sentient being would, after all “He cares for you”. Yet he consistently does NOTHING and allows evil to befall his people. I know the rebuttal to this as well, “His ways are not our ways, His will is not our will”, or “we have free will that why evil happen, we live in a fallen world”. Or, “God tests us through suffering and tragedy to make us cling to him even more.” That makes God capricious and still malevolent. I could not believe the tales anymore. I had to stop making excuses for my God and stop trying to reconcile his ‘actions’ and ‘inaction’ with the reality of the world around me.
It is all too convenient that the Bible describes God as being the perfect being, but at the same time offers him an out for his imperfect world by placing the all the blame for the evil and imperfection in the world on our ‘sin’. Regardless of what Revelation 20-22 or any other passage of Scripture says about how the story will end, I am deeply disturbed that God apparently has the power to stop evil in his world but does nothing. I avoided using the word "suffering" here because Christians have a tendency to associate it with something noble--and in some situations a person can certainly develop their character from persevering through hardships (think Lance Armstrong). What really troubles me is not the difficulties and trials that we learn and grow from. What troubles me are the cold, brutal acts of evil that leave death, destruction, prolonged pain and misery in their wake.
I know the existence of evil and suffering is a philosophical stumbling block for many people. The primary questions they pose are: "If God is real, and God created everything, why did He create evil?" "Why did a personal, loving God create a world in which evil exists?" "Why did God give man freedom to commit evil acts?" Atheists’ reason, "Surely, an all-knowing God of love would not allow evil to exist in His world." As a Christian I heard these arguments and debated them based on the Biblical apologetics.
The response to the question I believed was summed up in God's nature and His plan for mankind. The logic was this; how could God allow for love without the potential for evil? God could have created robots that do nothing more than forever saying, "I love you, I love you, I love you." But such creatures would be incapable of a real loving relationship. Love is a choice, and the Bible says God desires a real love relationship with His creation. Love is not real unless was have the ability to not love. One of God's supposed attributes is omniscience. God knew that in a world with choice, there would be much evil – and to choose not to love is evil by definition. However, there would also be the capacity for real love. Apologist Alvin Plantinga wrote, "An all loving, all powerful, all knowing Being could permit as much evil as He pleased without forfeiting His claim to being all loving, so long as for every evil state of affairs He permits there is an accompanying greater good". The potential for love outweighs the existence of evil, especially if that evil can only exist for a finite time. Evil is a side effect of love. Suffering and death are a side effect of evil/sin (Romans 5:12). The Bible says that this side effect is only for a limited time. Evil serves the limited purpose of establishing real love relationships between creation and the Creator, and evil will be done away with after that purpose is achieved. "And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides forever" (I John 2:17). That was my established argument for the question of evil. But my perspective began to change as I studied the Bible closely.
In my original argument the presupposition was that love and evil were mutually exclusive. However from the New Testament Luke says: "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? “For even sinners also love those that love them." (Luke 6:32) Apparently even the wicked are capable of love. Another thought that comes to my mind is that although my wife and I love each other very much, neither of us cares about other men and women in that way. I have no such emotion when it comes to the rest of the women in the world, and she has no interest in other men. I also love my children very much, but other people's children rarely enter my thoughts. The argument that for God or people to experience love, then evil has to exist is false dilemma. I can't help but wonder if I am truly evil, since I do not love every single person in the world. Why is it so impossible for Christians to imagine the likelihood of someone not loving God without being evil in the process? Why couldn't God create creatures with the capacity of either loving Him or not, without them also being murderers, sadists and rapists in the process?
Another attribute of God was that he never changed. "For I am the LORD, I change not" (Malachi 3:6) Since God never changes, what changed that he somehow at some point decided he needed people to love and be loved by? Oh, and I wasn't aware that God needed anything at all. I was under the impression that God was without needs, wants or desires. A desire implies a lack of something in a person. If I desire a meal, it is likely that I lack enough nutrition for the day. I desire things because I need things. I perceive that I lack something and therefore strive to fill that need. Apparently God doesn't have enough love so he needs us. I would have to agree that real love is only real if it is accompanied by the capacity and choice to not love. However, as I tried to illustrate above, the ability to not love someone does not equate to evil. I do not love lots of people, but I do not hate them and wish all manner of evil on them. But this is exactly the way I see God's love. For example God loves a certain person. The person is not interested in God for whatever reason. God feels like his love has been spurned. God demonizes the person who is just not interested in his love and calls him or her evil. God gets angry and shouts, “I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them.”(Ezek 25:17) and sends them off to rot in eternal torment in hell forever and ever for the ‘sin’ of not loving Him.
The “free will” defense as the answer to the problem of evil, but let’s look at “free will” for a second. The Christian God loves me so much that he gives me the opportunity to live blissfully forever in His presence, or be horribly tortured for all eternity in Hell. What kind of “free will” choice is that? It’s like someone holding a blowtorch to your face and demanding a confession or they will melt out your eyes out. Not really a fair choice there is it? Does God really want me to serve Him and confess my need and love for him to avoid the torture He created for me if I don’t? Is a confession extracted under torture or the threat of torture reliable and sincere? If I love God, and he is my savior and watched over me and was in control of everything, why does He allow me to suffer so much? Is it to make me love Him all the more? In Psychology it’s called the “battered wife syndrome”. “But he really loves me”, is what abused wives say to justify the pain their husbands put them through. Or, “I deserved it”. How much did God really love Job? I now say that if Job really loved God after all he put him through he was suffering like that battered wife.
At this very moment somewhere in the world a child is being molested. These are horrible crimes that destroy childhood innocence. After the act is over the shame, self-hate, bitterness, anxiety, distrust, and scars never go away. All of this stays with a victim for life. Worse still, many of the perpetrators go undiscovered and unpunished. There is simply no value in this tragedy, none at all, and I was tired of all of the excuses offered by the Church and systematic theology. What angers me is the thought that a holy, loving, omnipresent God would stand by and do nothing while a child is raped and then buried alive in a shallow grave. After all he is there in the same room as the child and the molester. Christians believe that God would punish those could do something, but chose to do nothing. Heck, they believe that the courts should punish someone who could have stopped the crime and did nothing. And yet...God still does nothing. This is where the free-will defense comes to bear. Yet, there are stories of God intervening (even hardening the hearts) of men when it suits his purposes. If molestation is not worth intervening in, then I don't know what is. What is God’s purpose in allowing this? Does it make sense to you? It seems entirely incongruent with His character to stand on the sidelines and watch. So, I am left to conclude that such a God does not exist.
As I have gone on, I have gathered more insight and realized that I have not believed in God for a very long time, and here is another analogy why. When I wrecked my shoulder, did I go to church first or to the hospital for help? If my house was on fire with my family trapped inside, would I kneel and pray before or after I called the fire department? Most sane people, including myself, answer these questions the same. If my house were on fire and my wife and the children were trapped inside and I did nothing but pray to God to save them, would you think I was ‘holy’ and ‘spiritual’? Or would you rightfully think me criminally negligent?
When it comes to the truly important, urgent, and practical things in life, did people trust God to be a “very present help in trouble” (Psalm 46), or when we need present help in times of trouble do we go to our fellow humans? The answer is obvious; when I need “very present help in trouble”, the number I call is 911, not the local church. And why is that? Is God unable to help me in my time of urgent need? Is He unwilling? Or is it that, when the stakes are at their highest, the matter is urgent, and most importantly the consequences are something you can actually see, is your faith in man greater than your faith in God? Mine is.
I have faith in mankind, because I trust my experiences. Regardless of how many poetic Bible verses I can recite that promise God’s help in times of need, no matter how fervently I argued against non-Christians, no matter how enthusiastically I shared the Gospel, when the chips are down and it comes to something urgent and real, I wholeheartedly rely upon ‘sinful’, imperfect people. Did this say something negative about me as a Christian? I don’t think so; I think it says something very real about God. When it comes to anything we can see, hear, touch, taste, or smell, God does not live up to His Word. He is not here or there and I knew it and no matter how I tried to reconcile it, it faith just didn’t work.
I have come to accept that God does not exist, and since one cannot logically prove a universal negative, it is incumbent upon the one the making the positive claim to prove God’s existence. As a Christian, I could not prove God’s existence without circular reasoning so I gave up trying. Praying for God to ‘reveal’ himself to me was not working to well. Here is what I was taught to believe:
- Premise #1: The God of the Bible is real because the Bible says so.
- Premise #2: The Bible is true because the God in the Bible says so.
- Premise #3: Any questions or doubts, reverts back to premise #1.
Naturally I recognize that this is an oversimplification of the matter, but none-the-less this to a large degree, succinctly encapsulates the Christian “proofs” of God’s existence and involvement with humans. Then there is the other ‘proofs’ which are the very subjective claims of “personal relationships” and “changed hearts”. But I now see this “relationship with Jesus” was ridiculous. If he was real and cared about ‘His’ people and was involved in their lives, what does it say about God when I believed he answers my prayer for a great promotion at work, but ignored the prayers of others suffering from starvation and genocide?
As a Christian, I would demand irrefutable proofs for what I considered the outlandish claims of evolutionists and atheists. Yet I never demanded the same type of evidence for the even more remarkable claims of the supernatural made in the Bible. My thought process seems so much clearer now than it was when the “eyes of faith” and “my heart” guided me. There can really be only one explanation as I look back in retrospect: I believed only what I wanted to believe.
Whether or not I have something better than Christianity to offer is not relevant to the question of the existence of the biblical God. What is pertinent is that I am honest with myself by demanding the application of the same type of evidence to the claims of religion as are expected of scientists and again for me the proof comes up short. There is no proof of God, only faith.
In conclusion, I do not believe in unicorns, ghosts, elves, goblins, Bigfoot, UFO’s, Cyclopes, Zeus, Thor, the Loch Ness Monster, Allah, Buddha, Astrology, Greek Gods, Roman Gods, Chupacabra, Vishnu or Brahma, or Christ. There is no credible evidence for any of their existence. I know this is a shock to the family and will cause division. I wish I could keep on pretending I believe for the sake of peace, but I cannot in good conscious do that anymore. I am not ‘led astray’ or ‘demon possessed’ because they don’t exist. I hold that everyone is entitled to believe as they wish, and I will not try and “de-convert” anyone around me. If anyone asks how I came to this conclusion, I will tell them why. Hopefully this letter explains that. In the end, everyone is an atheist when you think about it, if you don’t believe in Poseidon, Zeus, Mars, Krishna, Allah et. al. you are an atheist when it comes to those deities and don’t believe in their existence. I just happen to believe in one fewer god than you do.
"If we go back to the beginning we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them, and that custom, respect and tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve their own interests."
"If ignorance of Nature gave birth to gods, then knowledge of Nature is calculated to destroy them."
- Baron d’Holbach
I'd make one argument that "Believing in God might give people an inner strength not available to the atheist." should be "inner conviction" rather than "inner strength" as believers always seem to suffer from the conviction that they are always right
Thank you for sharing your story, and well done to you for your courage and intellect!
....
-- Great line!!! I mean it's beautiful, just f*cking beuatiful! I want to make a bumber sticker, t-shirt, and a billboard with that quote!
I come from a family like yours as well. Im glad Im finally out.
Feel free to copy and paste at will. I did from others when I complied this rambling mess! I hope it helps you all put your own thoughts in order. Thanks again for your support!
-Chris
As I was giving the debates some thought it suddenly struck me that unknowningly those religious factions were doing the work of atheists for them by condemning each others religions and ridiculing and making fun of each others holy books.
In other words they are doing to each other what atheists have been trying to do for hundreds of years.
Both factions are trying to convince each other how stupid and incorrect the others religion is:
Atheists have known this all along, yet when we try to voice our opinions we are classed as godless morons worthy of hell by the very same people who are condemning each others religions, and they have the gall and the nerve to call us hypocrites. What crass arrogance:
Let we Atheists sit back with a wry smile on our faces and think to ourselves as we contemplate other religions "THERE FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I"
Our dear god wrote"
I'd make one argument that "Believing in God might give people an inner strength not available to the atheist." should be "inner conviction" rather than "inner strength" as believers always seem to suffer from the conviction that they are always right.
I think perhaps, "a false feeling of inner strength" not longed for or expected, to the atheist." IMO
Every word, syllable, and punctuation is exactly what I think. It took me almost two years to come to the exact same conclusions and realizations you came to but my conclusions stemmed from the death of my ten year old son, from a heat attack, related to leukemia.
I asked myself, how could an all-loving, all-powerful, all-merciful god let my child suffer horribly only to die? And my son, only represents any child who has suffered horribly and died, throughout history -- walking through a pediatric intensive care unit painfully validates this picture.
To further expound on your ideas; I asked these questions as well:
If a god is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving, couldn't he have created a world, without suffering and without evil as an antithesis to good? Couldn't he -- with these attributes -- teach us love, without having evil or hate? Couldn't he have done all these things without the concept of free will? Couldn't he have given us all levels of good and satisfaction and accomplishment without evil, if he is indeed, an all-powerful and all- loving god?
Scott
But now where does this leave me? I get to exist, until I die, with the torturous pain of this monumental loss, never being with my child and virtually, zero, hope of seeing him again.
Scott
I am sorry for your loss. I have two small children of my own, one 7months old and one 2 1/2. The pain of losing a child would be too much to bear and I cannot even begin to comprehend your pain.
As a Christian, or a person of any faith, there is some refuge from the pain in the belief of an afterlife or divine plan. That is one thing that I still have trouble coming to terms with myself, that when this life is over I will be no more. The only thing that will live on is the memory of us in others.
If there was a loving, personal God in this world, you would not have suffered like you did. No caring person would wish that kind of pain on anyone, which alone disproves the existance of god. I wish I could say something that could console you Scott, but I haven't the words. My heart breaks for you and your family.
-Chris
Good luck with your loved ones as you continue your walk in reason.
BTW, there is a good wikipedia entry on d'Holbach that has a refrence to that quote.
-Chris
there is not a part of this testimony that i didn't like. i really like this quote:
"Would I bow down and be eternally thankful to someone who poisoned me when they gave me the antidote?"
I had never thought of it like that. All very succinct!
-Jeffrey
First studying ancient myths you say they were created to explain natural pheoninom that could not be explained by the science at the time. However, I would think the Bible is unique in that it does not try to explain natural phenominon. It does not say thunder is God yelling or Lightning is fashioned by God. The only things it attributes to God are things that defy all laws of nature.
That statement alone, is in fact a blatant lie.
And people today still believe such ignorant bullshit.
Instead of saying "He made a personal decision of refusal to comply to gods commands, yet god hardened his heart." But instead inserted metaphorical bullshit lies for emotional appeal.
"If it's unbelievable, then it must be untrue" Judge Judy Shindling
Like all the other posters, I could see some of myself in many of your points. Likewise, I plan on sharing this with as many of my lost friends as possible. May it help them find the truth! Jim Earl
I'd like to thank everyone, especially boomSlang, shygetz, webmaster, and the rest of the crew here fpr helping me articulate my positions. John Loftus over at www.debunkingchrisianity.com was the source of much of the 'problem of evil' argument that moved me so much. Outside of the internet George Carlin's bit about the 'Sun God'and religion was not only funny but a revelation for me. Penn & Teller's "Religion is Bullshit" show was likewise enlightining.
And a special big thanks to Dan Marvin who gave me the motivation to put down all of my objections in one place.(/sarcasim off)
I re-read my post last night and realized that I left a lot of grammar and spelling mistakes in there. Also, I jumped around a bit and think it could be a little better organized, so I will attempt to clean it up and make it publish-quality. When I get it done I will get it back out to all of you. Consider it public domain and free to use any or all of it without attribution.
If anyone lives in the Seattle area drop me a line and lets get together!
-Chris
Doesn't it finally feel like REALLY being "Born Again", that the TRUTH has "set you free". That's the way I felt when I finally came out and said it. "I Don't Believe in God!!!"
It took me around 20 years to de-program and finally say those words. I posted my testimony on this site a couple of weeks ago and that very act in itself was freeing and exhilerating. I'm sure that today you feel the same way. Possiby mixed with some anxiety. Anyway, Thanks for the wonderfully written testimony. I think you have a book in you. Your writing style is easy to follow and although you are obiously very intelligent, you are able to convey your thoughts in a way that even a 5th grader could understand it (unfortunately that is about the grade level of most fundamentalist christians).
I like you have been scorned by my family and friends that remain behind in the church, but I would never dream of going back to that blind delusion of a life.
On a positive note, my favorite nephew (who was also in the ministry at one time) and I have been in contact and he also has recently come out of the lunacy. Now my wife and I have an allie withing the family. Perhaps you too will find those just waiting for someone else to be brave enough to step out and lead the way out of the Fairy Tale World.
You will find kindred hearts at this web site. Welcome
Ex-Pastor Dan
The closest feeling I can relate to is being blind for years then suddenly seeing for the first time. The fear of constant judgement and self-loathing for my 'sins' and imperfections were gone and I felt free for the first time in my life.
Religion was prison for my mind and I could not do the gymastics anymore to try to fit my dogma with reality. One had to give, and I am sad to say that for a long time 'faith' trumped reason. But I am free now! Reality is great and reason is simple and refreshing.
Thank you so much for your kind words!
I highly recommend Daniel C. Dennett's most recent book, Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon. It's well-written and accessible. Dennett includes some good, hard science in with the philosophy. Gives you a real good idea of where organized religion came from and why it's still with us today.
Welcome to atheism! You're not alone, you're home!
So much of what you have written mirrors my thoughts over the past year or so. If God is all-powerful and doesn't act to prevent a horror then isn't he guilty of not stopping that horror? Doesn't that, in itself, make a sinless God sinful? The conclusion becomes that either God is evil, God isn't all-powerful or God doesn't exist. Why should God be personally interested and want to intervene on my behalf, but seemingly not want to intervene on behalf of the billions of people who are sick or starving? Doesn't that make god selective? God does appear to be a god of wrath, not of love, despite all the hopeful words in the New Testament you still have the ultimate judgement. You also have the gospel quote that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord will be in heaven - you cannot guarantee that you'll get there - it's entirely down to god. Doesn't that make god capricious? Doesn't humanity just then become a plaything for god?
The one point I'm still wrestling over is what to do with all those spiritual experiences over the past 30 years. You wrote "I have faith in mankind, because I trust my experiences." I seemed to experience God as very real, I felt his presence, I heard him talk to me (in some way). That's the objection my wife also has - "but all these things happened". The only answer I can give is either that God is real and did communicate, but is simply not all-powerful, is selective and is judgemental, or that God doesn't exist and I was deluded. I know that people can be hypnotised into believing and doing all sorts of things, and I can see that church often invokes some kind of mass hypnosis. But it does mean that you can't actually trust your own experiences completely - and I don't know where you go from there.
Helen xx
There is some problems and I have read a lot on the net.
I found a side with a 13-year old girl, who got a real nasty and malignant tomour and had to undergo surgery, combined with radiation therapy and chemotherapy. Still she thanked god for his blessings by letting her keep her hair in spite of the chemo.
??????
not a single thought why the sucker gave her the darned thing???
Of course she has this from her parents, but still - how can anyone fuck the mind of a child up so badly?
Soren
Thank you for posting this. I grew up completely outside of religion, and I am grateful to my parents for this. I often wonder if I had been brought up Christian if I would have hand the intellectual ability to arrive at the same conclusions you have.
I commend you for allowing reason to guide your thought.I hope you'll continue to help spread the word that athesists are moral and loving people who appreciate life as much or more than god-fearers.
I know how 'real' those experiences can be. I spent the first 6-7 years of my xtian life in a Pentacostal church. I spoke in 'tounges' was 'slain' in the spirit countless times. I 'felt' god all the time.
In the end, I beleive that the human mind is a very powerful tool and we do not fully understand how it functions and controls our actions. My experiences were not 'supernatural', they were just 'natural' states induced by my mind that were different from everyday emotions/feelings. I was under the spell of some type of group hysteria, that is all.
I have seen people who can meditate so deeply that they can endure pain that would cause others to scream out. I have seen a side-by-side demonstration of a meditation technique were the person could be pricked by a pin in their left and right hand, and only choose to bleed in one. Yes our brains are powerful and can produce some amazing feats, but in the end it all lies within you..No Gods Required.
I suspect that for many Christians, or people of any faith, the external pressure to conform is stronger than the internal drie to seek the truth at any cost.
Most Christians I know are very smart people and reasonable, except when it comes to matters of faith. There is an unwillingness to admit that you have been wrong for years that keeps people in. Also, when your entire social and family life is so intertwined with faith it seems impossible to escape.
My wife is a born and raised xtian, her father was a Missionary and is now an assistant pastor so my religious views are an off-limits discussion. She does not want to answer the tough questions because her entire social order and worldview would collapse. That is a powerful lure to keep one in line no matter how much they question their faith.
And you make a good point about atheists being good people too...I submit that we are even better people because when I see somone who needs help, I stop and help them myself. I dont ask 'god' to help them because he has a bad habbit of not showing up. When my family sits down to eat dinner, I give thanks, to the person who made the dinner and who provided the food. Giving credit where credit is due and not to god, and helping when it is required and not looking for god to fix the problem makes you a better person.
-Chris
My wife is a recovering Christian as well. Your point about giving credit where it is due is one I bring up often myself. I've been busting my hump to get into grad school. I've applied for a few fellowships and my wife and I are waiting to hear if I'll get sufficient funding.
She mentioned to her father that it was a little tense waiting to see what was going to happen. He told her to trust in the lord. Needless to say, I took some offense at this. If I get funded, the lord will have nothing to do with it!
Similarly, I hate it when athletes thank the lord after a win. Why the hell to they bother to practice if the "lord" is going to hand the win to whomever he deems appropriate.
It's all quite ridiculous, and your incredibly thourough and credible post here gives me hope that someday logic and reason will triumph over fear and superstition.
--Brian
Good luck in grad school, and take pride in the fact that whatever you accomplish in life was a product of your own sweat and hard work. You opened your own doors and made life happen the way you wanted.
The saying that "God helps those who help themself", while not in the Bible is the truth. Another one I like was General Patton's comment that "God fights on the side with the heaviest artillery." If you feel compeled to thank God when you win, do you blame him when you lose?
--Chris
He fed me, allowed me to stay over so I had a place to sleep. He allowed me to use his shower because I was dirty and needed a shower.
He gave me a bicycle to sell. He did good things and I am grateful.
I went back to church and was baptized and then he moved to teach Biblical Greek and we lost touch.
His answer to one of my questions was:
"You can't figure it out on your own.
Your mind, any human mind, is not created to figure out and understand God." It won't work.
"You have to have faith, and trust Him and that is all there is too it."
Perhaps my friend was on to something?
Look around you, Somebody put all this here. Somebody created all of us and everything around us.
Furthermore, the middle East and Israel and all this does seem to follow the words printed in thwe Bible. There is some force at work and it follows this book that is being bashed here.
Myself, I'd rather not mess with whoever or whatever designed all of us and everything we see.
However, This post that I am answering "is the best yet written"
I propose that it is printed out and taken to ministers of churches and ask then to explain it all and
that a book be written with the expalnations.
Are you kidding? Have you read it?
Try Exodus 9:23, Exodus 19:16; 1 Samuel 7:10; 1 Samuel 12:18; Job 36:29-33; Job 37:2-5, 15; Job 38; Job 38:24 (whew!); Psalm 18:7-14; Psalm 29:3, 7; Psalm 77:17-18; and on and on... And those are just for thunder and lightning.
Genesis 2 explains why humans pair up. Genesis 3 explains why shit happens and why snakes slither. Genesis 9 explains rainbows. Genesis 11 explains why we speak different languages. In addition, the gospels and Acts imply that diseases and mental illnesses are caused by evil spirits. All these phenomena have natural explanations.
Anonymous wrote: “The only things it attributes to God are things that defy all laws of nature.”
What things? Things that, if you’d heard about them from any other source than the Bible, you wouldn’t believe? David Hume hit the nail on the head:
“A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature; and as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact, is as entire as any argument from experience can possibly be imagined [emphasis added].
“…no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless the testimony be of such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.”
—An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding,1748
Sorry, but to the skeptics among us, the fallibility of the Bible is no miracle.
No wait... Let me see that again:
Anonymous wrote: “The only things it attributes to God are things that defy all laws of nature.”
Why don’t you dust off that Bible sitting on your shelf, crack it open, and read Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, and Judges to see how many times it attributes battle victories to God.
Really! It’s unbecoming of a Christian to be that clueless about the Bible. ;-)
I did not say that some Christians are not great people who do really care about others and help as best they can. The minister who gave you assistance was a decent human being, but his kindness one way or another, does not prove the existance of god.
You are right that someone made all of us. They are called 'Mom' and 'Dad'...A long time before that it was Bobo and Bonzo the apes, before that it was ameobas.
What is going on in the Middle East has now bearing whatsoever on any of the claims of the Bible or the proof of the existance of god. Once upon a time, I did think that 'prophecy' was being acted out on a daily basis over there, but now I can see it is not.
The Bible is like a fortune teller who tells you all kinds of very general things and allows you to draw the conclusions and fill in the gaps to make it seem very precise and accurate. Application of these standards to Nostradamus, the Bible, Koran, or the Fortune teller down the road all yeild the same results. They are frauds.
I am glad you have turned your life around, it was you who did it with the help of some friends, not God. Man helped himself yet again! Take the credit you deserve and dont look to god for the change, look in the mirror.
Good for him! But just because he is a good man doesn’t mean he has the truth.
Anonymous wrote: “His answer to one of my questions was:
“‘Goddidit. Now STFU.’ [paraphrased]”
Anonymous wrote: “Look around you, Somebody put all this here. Somebody created all of us and everything around us.”
Argument from ignorance. “I don’t know how it got here. Therefore, God exists.”
Anonymous wrote: “Furthermore, the middle East and Israel and all this does seem to follow the words printed in thwe Bible. There is some force at work and it follows this book that is being bashed here.”
Nothing there is happening today that wasn’t happening there long before Biblical “prophecies” were written.
*Bash* *Bash*
Anonymous wrote: “Myself, I'd rather not mess with whoever or whatever designed all of us and everything we see.”
Argumentum ad baculum. “Please don’t hurt me, God! (Smooch, smooch)”
Anonymous wrote: “However, This post that I am answering ‘is the best yet written’
“I propose that it is printed out and taken to ministers of churches and ask then to explain it all and
that a book be written with the expalnations.”
Good luck getting anything accurate or logically coherent.
The rationale I'm thinking through is that, even though most of my deep spiritual experiences were on my own rather than in a group setting, it is possible to maintain some residual level of "hysteria". Also, it is possible to train yourself into or expect and thereby create particular emotional responses. That seems to be how phobias develop. I don't think it's insignificant that most "spiritual" experiences tend to be highly emotional ones - mine included.
Anonymous - rather than saying "x exists therefore God must have put it there" (which is not a conclusion you can actually make from the observation), why not address the nature of god as Chris has raised? If he's all-powerful then doesn't his refusal to prevent just one "sin" that make him guilty as hell? Also, why not use any of the alternative arguments that, because we exist, Allah exists, or Thor, or Zeus, or Osiris, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or ...? Also ever thought that some religious folk are actually working in order to ensure that the "prophecies" are fulfilled, just because they believe there's some meaning in this Bronze Age book? But hey, you won't read this anyway - you've dumped and moved on, right?
Helen
Here is the reason why my son has turned his back on Jesus.
My son is mad at God because God simply did not give my son what he wanted in life. My son had built his own false image of God in his own mind, and so therefore he made God into his own image.
My son's so called claims about how he attended church, studied the bible, prayed, and served on many church committees faithfully were all done out of a selfish motives in hopes that he would win favor from God. So once he did all of these great things for God, my son thought that God would simply reward him by giving him what he wanted. So when God did not bring certain things to pass in my son's life, and when God did not give him what he wanted, my son got mad and lost his temper by cursing my Jesus and rejecting him like a immature 2 year old.
I'm sure that is the same case in regards to the rest of you who have turned their backs on God who posts on this site. Just like my son, God did not give you what you wanted nor did he do what you wanted him to do, so you got mad at him and turned your backs on him all because he would not give you what you wanted.
The facts are you do not tell God what to do, or what he is supposed to do. He is God, and you are to serve and obey him without any conditions attached. God does not owe any person living on this planet anything. He didn't even have to die on the cross for our sins. He didn't even owe us that. So the next time some of you say that God owes you something or he did not treat you fairly, I will also remind you that God doesn't owe you anything. It is you who owes God.
God is not someone who gives us what we want, he gives us what we need.
As for my son, you know who you are, and if you choose to retaliate to my post then so be it. God loves you and he will chasten you until you come back to him. God will never leave you alone until you come back home to him. You were bought with a price, and nobody can take you out of his hand.
Jesus is the true lover of your soul. He will not let you stray far from him no matter how far you run away from him. He is in hot pursuit of your soul!
Dad
Sir, what you just said is patently absurd. You do not know anybody here, except your son. I assure you that NOBODY here is so naive as to reject "god" for not catering to our every whim. Moreover, I think it's a distinct possibility that you are projecting onto your son the same puerile reasoning that you accuse us of.
Here's an important question for you. Do you care what your son or anybody else thinks, or do you feel that everyone is somehow obliged to adopt the same theology as you?
And here's a piece of advice, which you can take or leave as suits you. Try listening as well as speaking. You are not the only one who is entitled to have an opinion.
I pray that you recover your humaneness. Do you have any idea how hateful, how mean spirited, how hard hearted the attitude expressed in your post is?
I pray you go inside yourself and feel again the kindness and gentleness and mercy you once cherished.
If everyone has to have congruent beliefs to yours, you are doomed to misery. We can't believe what you believe. Even those who are generally shaped by similar beliefs to yours, can't believe in the exact same way with the exact same degree of passion as you.
I pray that in your heart you find the goodness to allow others their beliefs. As certain as you are of your beliefs, anger toward others for their beliefs won't help you or them. It can only hurt.
This post is my prayer. It will be read by real, live human beings. It won't be read nor heard by your god. But you--you are still a human--will it be heard by you?
Try reading my original post about the 'nature of God'. Jesus is the lover of our souls , huh??? Where was Jesus when Jessica Lundsford was raped, beaten and burried alive in a shallow grave? Where is Jesus in the cancer ward at St. Judes where 4 and 5 year old kids are dying everyday from the most painful and miserable forms of cancer? Where was Jesus when millions were being gassed in the Nazi camps while the Doctors performed vile experiments on children?
I have been polite up until this point but no more. Your god is a fraud and belief in this Jesus is an affront to all of hummanity. I owe god nothing and you good sir can go to your own hell that youe loving god created. Please wake up and join the 21st century.
--Chris
Eeegad, that's appalling!
Congratulations....you are insane, and so is the family belief you inherited and handed-down to your poor, poor son. Shame on you.
It has come to my attention that my son has been posting on this site
----
Am I the only one wondering how this 'dad' found out his 'son' has been posting here?
That is, assuming this 'dad' claim is even true.
Either way, the 'dad' person writing here, is just another brainwashed xtian who thinks everyone else left his religion because they surely must be 'angry' at his very own pretend 'god-toy'.
Hey 'dad, it's time to pack up your god-toys and find someone else to play with, besides the 'son' you attempted to keep brainwashed in your delusion.
ATF (Who wonders if I also "turned my back" on those other human created gods, just as 'dad' here surely turned his back on them)
Do you have any idea how much danger my son's soul is in because he has rejected Jesus?
Many of you fail to realize that this life is only temporary. None of you seem to be too concerned about eternity.
As for the other poster who left the hateful message about Jesus being a fraud and how can he allow people to be raped and murdered along with allowing an innocent child to die from cancer.
I'll say that it is sad to see a innocent child suffer and die from cancer like that. I will be the first to admit that I do no know why God allows such things as that to happen, however I do believe that God has a greater purpose for everything, and that he will one day turn all of these tragedies here on Earth into something really beautiful in the long run.
One thing I have learned how to do over the years is not trust in my own understanding, but lean on God who's thoughts are higher than mine. God sees the bigger picture, not us. He knows what is best for each and everyone of us. He created us and he is the designer of our bodies. Only the creator knows what is best for his creations, not the creation itself.
As a christian parent, I am deeply concerned for my son Brian's soul. I have every right to be concerned especially when the danger exists that my son may end up in eternal torment someday.
I realize none of you subscribe to my beliefs, however my beliefs are real, and the danger of my son facing eternal torment is real, and you better believe I am going to be worried.
I'm not about to take that chance unlike the rest of you are. I'm not going to risk the chance of burning in hell for all eternity, because I am reminded every time I attend someone's funeral that this life is only temporary. Nobody is guaranteed another single day on this planet. We all take life for granted.
Well when my son tells me just what a stupid brainwashed christian that I am, and how out of date my beliefs are and how I am living in the dark ages and then he tells me that he got his information from a site called, "exchristian.net", it's not too hard to figure out.
Just to make a point out of what all you said in your post.
Just imagine one person having all of those same things you just mentioned along with all of the other tragedies that has happened on this planet past, present, and future, and you will see just how much suffering that Jesus went through.
Jesus died for every single one of those tragedies (Sins) plus more. He took on the whole entire sins of the world. No human could do that. Jesus' death and suffering was the greatest because he took on all of the sins and burdens of the world.
You're sure, are you?
Really, really sure?
You're wrong.
We aren't mad at your god. It's a waste of time to be mad at something that isn't actually there.
We can, however, be mad at you, however... People so deluded by their faith that they try to ram it down other people's throats.
People who stalk their own children on the Internet and try to shame them into returning to the sheep pen.
"He is God, and you are to serve and obey him without any conditions attached."
Just as you demand that your kidlet serve and obey your ideas? More proof that men make gods in their own images.
"however my beliefs are real, and the danger of my son facing eternal torment is real, and you better believe I am going to be worried."
Your beliefs are just that... Beliefs. Your believing is real; you actually believe that your son is in danger. However, it's doubtful that he's in any real danger of burning forever and ever, ay-men.
I, for one, refuse to buy into Christianity's sadistic mythology. I, Myself, prefer to risk an eternity in Hell rather than give credence to the idea of gods being irrational torturers.
Please find the courage to do likewise, for the sake of your own sanity.
...how I am living in the dark ages and then he tells me that he got his information from a site called, "exchristian.net", it's not too hard to figure out
----
Hey 'dad',
First off, I assert your dad/son story doesn't jive, and I'm pretty sure others will notice what I just did, in less than 1 minute of digging.
Either way 'dad', you ARE living in the dark ages. I'm quite pleased your son was smart enough to escape that dark age delusion. Maybe some day his 'dad' might as well.
Now if you have any real proof of our god, I'm all ears, otherwise your god is still just a pretend toy you play with and nothing more.
ATF (Who still thinks GI JOE was a much better hero toy, than the coward xtian god toy)
We don't owe God anything. If God is infinite and eternal, He doesn't need our love and respect.
And the "dying" for us? Child's play. There are perhaps hundreds of thousands of people in history who have suffered worse than Jesus, who not only was just whipped for a little bit and then crucified, but God also cut his pain short, and he got to go to Heaven to rule at the right hand of God afterward. Some sacrifice!
I was just wondering where you found out so much information about your god? Let me guess...a 2000 year old book, that was brought over here by whit