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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
Sent in by Joseph
You remember Cypher? The traitor from the movie called The Matrix? There was a moment in the film when Cypher tells Neo..."Who oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill". Neo laughs at first...and then he becomes quiet...because he was silently wishing the same thing" Remember that moment in the film? Well, I had my Cypher "I wish I took the blue pill" moment today...of all days Christmas.
I ruined my parent's Christmas Day and I feel very guilty. I've been harboring doubts about the existence of God for a very long time and today...I felt I had to express my feelings. I had to let them know what I felt...and now I feel guilty.
I love my parents very much...but too much faith in religion and all belief involved and I had it. I had to tell them what I thought was the truth. The truth is, from my perspective...God does NOT exist. I feel guilty because I told them this on Christmas Day. Am I wrong for saying this to them? Especially on a day like Christmas Day? I don't know.
I just know I can't keep this inside of me anymore. I had to say it...regardless of the consequences to me and my future. I love my parents very much...but I felt my gift was at least telling them MY truth from the many years of studying the Bible, reasoning, and thinking about God...which no longer made any sense for me.
Nevertheless, I tried to reason with them and they wouldn't listen. I understand why they won't listen...but I felt hurt for letting them think they let me down because I didn't believe their religious faith!
In essence...I tried to reason with my mother specifically. I was in the kitchen with her and we were having discussions about politics, music and then...at one point - religion and the Catholic services. (I grew up Catholic, by the way).
Something in me snapped and I had to tell her the truth. It all started with me telling my mother an innocent remark about a recent admission from the Archbishop of Canterbury. He announced to the world that the Nativity Scene of the Birth of Christ was most definitely a myth. I wanted to say something humorous to my mother about this...but she got ahead of me and gave me a shock..."Of course the Nativity happened."
It stunned me to realize my mother still actually believed this nonsense. I felt sorry for her and I wanted to open her eyes. Just once I wanted her to see something of what I learned and grasp what I've discovered. But to my horror...her religious faith in believing "God" and "Jesus" and the Catholic Church was so strong...no matter what I said...she wouldn't give in and felt heartbroken that I didn't "believe". Silently I thought to myself and I'm telling all of you out here...we really are all alone in this world and it's impossible to get through to people who refuse to see reason! That's the true meaning of nihilism! No wonder Nietzsche went mad!
In any case...I decided to lower the boom on my mother for the heck of it. Yes, I felt a vindictive streak and tried to show her that my reasoning was stronger and more logical than her faith. I gently told her this: all the Gospels that have been written about Christ...NONE of the people who wrote them EVER saw him. Not a single one actually saw the Christ. She simply said "so what". I told her the Gospel of Mark was the most underused of all the gospels because it was the most embarrassing. No Nativity scene, no Resurrection scene, not even a mention about Christ's genealogy. I rounded up my argument by telling her..."if you believe in God...why bother? Since God is "real"...there would be no need to "believe"! She still refused to see reason and I felt defeated.
In the end...I realized my mistake in making my own mother broken hearted...so I backtracked on my "truths"..and "lied"...and told her I simply had alot of doubts about God and I still need a lot of "faith" to continue believing in God. I'm telling all of you this for a reason...if you have parents and people who really love you...something like this truth about the reality of existence is something too brutal, too frank for some people to absorb...like my parents. So...you just have to let them continue to believe in the myths they believe to be real...because otherwise they'd lose their reason to live and just die of apathy.
So in a way...I'm like Cypher now...I have this knowledge..and I wish I had taken the blue pill...but now I'm stuck because I chose to take the Red pill and can't go back. I just wish I had my own Trinity to comfort me right now and tell me...I"m alright and I made the right decision. I just feel very sad...because the truth not only hurts...it can hurt you if people you wish to learn the same thing...refuse to listen and lament you're unwillingness to "believe" and have "faith" in God.
You remember Cypher? The traitor from the movie called The Matrix? There was a moment in the film when Cypher tells Neo..."Who oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill". Neo laughs at first...and then he becomes quiet...because he was silently wishing the same thing" Remember that moment in the film? Well, I had my Cypher "I wish I took the blue pill" moment today...of all days Christmas.
I ruined my parent's Christmas Day and I feel very guilty. I've been harboring doubts about the existence of God for a very long time and today...I felt I had to express my feelings. I had to let them know what I felt...and now I feel guilty.
I love my parents very much...but too much faith in religion and all belief involved and I had it. I had to tell them what I thought was the truth. The truth is, from my perspective...God does NOT exist. I feel guilty because I told them this on Christmas Day. Am I wrong for saying this to them? Especially on a day like Christmas Day? I don't know.
I just know I can't keep this inside of me anymore. I had to say it...regardless of the consequences to me and my future. I love my parents very much...but I felt my gift was at least telling them MY truth from the many years of studying the Bible, reasoning, and thinking about God...which no longer made any sense for me.
Nevertheless, I tried to reason with them and they wouldn't listen. I understand why they won't listen...but I felt hurt for letting them think they let me down because I didn't believe their religious faith!
In essence...I tried to reason with my mother specifically. I was in the kitchen with her and we were having discussions about politics, music and then...at one point - religion and the Catholic services. (I grew up Catholic, by the way).
Something in me snapped and I had to tell her the truth. It all started with me telling my mother an innocent remark about a recent admission from the Archbishop of Canterbury. He announced to the world that the Nativity Scene of the Birth of Christ was most definitely a myth. I wanted to say something humorous to my mother about this...but she got ahead of me and gave me a shock..."Of course the Nativity happened."
It stunned me to realize my mother still actually believed this nonsense. I felt sorry for her and I wanted to open her eyes. Just once I wanted her to see something of what I learned and grasp what I've discovered. But to my horror...her religious faith in believing "God" and "Jesus" and the Catholic Church was so strong...no matter what I said...she wouldn't give in and felt heartbroken that I didn't "believe". Silently I thought to myself and I'm telling all of you out here...we really are all alone in this world and it's impossible to get through to people who refuse to see reason! That's the true meaning of nihilism! No wonder Nietzsche went mad!
In any case...I decided to lower the boom on my mother for the heck of it. Yes, I felt a vindictive streak and tried to show her that my reasoning was stronger and more logical than her faith. I gently told her this: all the Gospels that have been written about Christ...NONE of the people who wrote them EVER saw him. Not a single one actually saw the Christ. She simply said "so what". I told her the Gospel of Mark was the most underused of all the gospels because it was the most embarrassing. No Nativity scene, no Resurrection scene, not even a mention about Christ's genealogy. I rounded up my argument by telling her..."if you believe in God...why bother? Since God is "real"...there would be no need to "believe"! She still refused to see reason and I felt defeated.
In the end...I realized my mistake in making my own mother broken hearted...so I backtracked on my "truths"..and "lied"...and told her I simply had alot of doubts about God and I still need a lot of "faith" to continue believing in God. I'm telling all of you this for a reason...if you have parents and people who really love you...something like this truth about the reality of existence is something too brutal, too frank for some people to absorb...like my parents. So...you just have to let them continue to believe in the myths they believe to be real...because otherwise they'd lose their reason to live and just die of apathy.
So in a way...I'm like Cypher now...I have this knowledge..and I wish I had taken the blue pill...but now I'm stuck because I chose to take the Red pill and can't go back. I just wish I had my own Trinity to comfort me right now and tell me...I"m alright and I made the right decision. I just feel very sad...because the truth not only hurts...it can hurt you if people you wish to learn the same thing...refuse to listen and lament you're unwillingness to "believe" and have "faith" in God.
When I was your age, I thought I could make people see how irrational religion was merely by making rational logical arguements. It took me a while to realize that doesn't work. Think about what made you become an ex-christian. I am sure it wasn't because someone explained to you how silly religion is. I'm sure it started with a question about some specific issue of your faith for which you could not get a satisfactory answer. That was the first seed of doubt. Once it was planted it grew and grew and grew. That's the only way anyone ever leaves their faith.
Religion can be so destructive to human relationships.
I find myself to be in the position that I want to tell my christian friends so badly what the truth is, just as badly as they would like me to accept their Jesus. I know there's no reasoning...religion has such a stronghold on people. They have to find that way for themselves.
Personally, I've never had the urge to 'take the red pill' and continue living in a fantasy that we have no control over. THIS is the world that makes sense. This world is the one where there is a reason that bad things happen to people--not one where we live in fear because of the whims of a capricious being. This world is where WE have the power to change how we relate to one another through education and reason.
I've never really understood people who wished they still had faith, except maybe those in situations where they have lost their family and friends because they were shunned in some way. If you think about it, is living in a world where you are terrorized by a god who won't show himself, tests you without even telling you what the test is, makes false promises, advocates genocide when he thinks it's appropriate, really a 'better' world? Seems to me that it's exactly the same world as we live in now except that we actually have control in this one--we're not pawns in some 'plan' that even its creator appears to have limited control over.
Sophia
Theists are like those snails that get a certain parasite that takes over their brains and makes them climb high onto blades of grass so they are easier to be preyed upon. The snail is powerless to avoid illogical behavior.
Don't feel guilty. You were simply being honest.
By the way, is your mother aware that the heads of her Church relocated this year's Vatican Nativity scene 'away FROM a manger' to Joseph's workshop in Nazareth?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/14/wrome114.xml
Looks as if they aren't so sure either!
Being "outed" or "outing" yourself is something that we don't always have total control over. The moment just occurs, in my case without any warning whatever.
You are a separate person from your parents. While you may feel you owe them something (and you do in a way, depending on the conditions under which you were raised), they do not have a claim on your inner self. What you believe or do not believe is your business, and yours alone.
I thought that when I "came out" to my mother, she would have a heart attack or something. The prospect scared me so badly that I avoided the moment for years and years, to my own detriment. When it finally happened, she didn't die at all. She simply has refused to ever discuss it, and our relationship has been destroyed as a result.
And that is sad. But the person who is hurting now is her, not me. And from my viewpoint, that's far preferable to the way it was. She made a choice, many years ago, to believe a fantasy. She taught it to me. I have chosen to reject it. This is not my fault and I will not accept the blame.
If she chooses now (along with the rest of my family) to consider me "mentally ill" or "backslidden" or whatever the latest excuse is, that's her problem.
Live your life. Stand tall. It's okay.
I'd bet that lots of people have stories about "The Xmas Day from Hell". As a society we have built Dec 25th into a emotional time-bomb. Don't feel too bad. Maybe a simple apology and an agreement to disagree could be a step toward keeping the peace.
The 'cat is out of the bag'....aren't you glad that you've (at least) gotten this far....?
They were hurt and my dad, true to form, tried to rebut with verses from the bible. Unfortunately, my father passed away before I could talk to him face to face.
I've had a couple of discussions with my mother, but she is still a believer. And that helps her cope.
We are now at a place where we agree to disagree.
We live 1500 miles away from each other. When she visits, she stays with me and when I visit her, I stay with her.
It could be tough, but try to stay in contact. Show them that nothing about your love for them has changed. That you are still the same person they love.
I don't think you should feel guilty though about being honest with your mom. That is a personal decision and your mom should undersand that the people in one's life will sometimes say or think things that that one doesn't want to hear. That's life.
And you didn't HAVE to do it on Christmas.
That was cruel to your mom.
Those of us who have deconverted totally sympathize with your dilemma. You said that you wanted your mother to see that your reasoning was stronger and more logical than her faith. There is nothing wrong with that--it is stronger. That is a simple reality you should always remember. Don't feel guilty about being honest. Your experience just shows how twisted up we can get from our religious indoctrination. Welcome to the world of free thinking and, even if it doesn't feel like it now, freedom
This is how the insidious evil of religion works, and the christians are masters at it, make you feel guilty so you won't dare see reality and leave, so we can have total domination and control over you until the day that you die.
They are the masters at giving guilt trips to anyone that does not see things the same way that they do, preaching hellfire and damnation to all who even dare think for themselves, the whole while robbing your wallet and purse every week so the preacher can sit back like a tin plated god and molest the children in the congregation.
Religion must be stamped out if we as human beings are to survive, and the one two that must be stamped out first are judaism and its twin christianity.
My answer to you is hell no you should not feel any quilt at all.
And the people that say you should have need to get off of here and quit spying on us and go back to their damned church so they can robbed and molested every week.
There can be no niceties in this, the christians view this as a war against them and they will and are fighting against people waking up as if this is a war, and they will stop at nothing no matter how low the tactic, or strategy to achieve their total domination of mankind , including open warfare and the killing of millions to achieve this end, which they have done with relish in the past.
I didnt think so.
The only reason you feel guilt is cause deep down inside you have a small shred of Faith in Christ left.
What happened yesterday was tragic, not immoral.
It is tragic that your parents are part of a belief system that has such enormous difficulty just agreeing to disagree and go on living and loving each other. Not all belief systems are life that; not even all *religious* belief systems are like that, but your parent's apparently is, and that isnt your fault.
I agree with those above who said you have to be true to yourself. You have the right and the duty to make up "your own damn mind" (as the Oracle said), just like your parents. It just happens to conflict with your parents conclusion, and they happen to have a belief system that cant tolerate that. Thats painful, it sucks, its unfair, its tragic - but its life. To use a idiom from our former faith, its the cross you will have to bear.
Sometimes we get to choose when these issues become public; sometimes the time chooses us. Life is messy like that, and its no ones fault.
My advice would be twofold: one, go easy on yourself, you did what you had to do and what was necessary. Two, go easy on your parents. You weren;t reasoned out of Christianity in one or two conversations, and you know of course that many people never are, so dont expect them to, either. So dont hound them about it. Their faith means as much to them now as it did to you, when you were a beleiver, and that emotional signficance with trump reason and logic every time. You know that, of course, just remind yourself of it.
Theyre still your parents. Be your better self and love them desipte their flaws. Even more, try to accept them for who they are, which is of course what you are asking of them. Show them what it means!
Good luck-
Richard
I came out to my mom within weeks of my own acceptance of my apostasy. It was inevitable, because we went to the same church, and as a fellow recovering Catholic, you know that missing mass is a burnable offense. Fortunately, it was nowhere near Christmas.
However, anticipating a negative reaction, i did a Web search on coming out as an atheist. I think that helped. She actually ended up concerned about how I in felt coming out to her!
I simply explained myself, and didn’t try to deconvert her or launch into a tirade. In retrospect, i think i explained a bit too much in response to her prodding questioning, but in any case, i left myself on the hot seat, and avoided putting her on the defensive. I did reassure her that i still know where the confessional is, and tried to anticipate any concerns about her kids burning in hell. My story may be to late for you, but perhaps other closeted apostates can learn from both our experiences.
Over time, she has (mostly?) accepted that i’m not coming back to the fold.
My dad, although he tends to take Catholicism more literally than my mom, doesn’t go for the “one true religion” business.
My family relations have not suffered. Perhaps i’m fortunate in that my family considers family ties more important than sectarianism. (I also do not broadcast my apostasy, and my mom, probably in the mode that unbelief is shameful, does not broadcast it either. I thus have some control over who finds out.)
Seems like more and more people these days feel entitled to clear their conscience at precisely the moment they "have to", no matter the cost.
Jan 1st would have been a good day, too. Better results for you and them.
what about the guilt that he caused his parents pain, that they are disappointed in him, that he did not live up to their expectations, that he overturned the family apple cart? There are lots of reasons.
I didnt think so."
Bull shite! Are you one of those fundibots who think only True Christians™ can love their families? Muslims have feelings, too.
It is common in any religion that when someone leaves they feel guilty or bad or whatever for leaving. Jews feel bad, muslims feel bad, buddists feel bad, mormons feel bad, hindus feel bad..etc. Even when one knows that it isn't true, it is hard to leave a way of life behind and it is hard to disappoint people who love you. Religon creates a community of sorts and disbelief creates a disconnect from that community where people you still care about remain. According to your view, a Muslim or Hindu should never ever leave their religion because if they feel guilty about it, it must be that Allah or Shiva are for real.
But your answer was typical of christians who always need to twist anything into a proof for their worldview.
That sounds like Christian reasoning. One of the reasons I left Christianity was because I was tired of all that emotional manipulation. You can't control how other people feel. Granted maybe the timing could have been better for Joseph and his family, but it truly was only bad timing because of their own ridiculous fairy tale about Jesus' birth. Otherwise it would be like any other day. Probably just as painful to his parents, which is not his problem. That's like saying, when Joseph told them he no longer believed, they should have agreed with him, or felt guilty that they had hurt his feelings by not agreeing. (Does that make any sense?)
I just think you have to live how you think you should and not worry about making someone else feel bad or good. That's not your problem. Even with a spouse, you shouldn't live your life to make them happy. Only they can make them happy. The fact is, if you're happy, it will help them be happy. My sister always says "If you stand in your power, you allow those around you to stand in theirs".
By Joseph coming out about his feelings, he's allowing his parents to a)accept him and continue to love him, or b) feel like bad, inadequate parents who failed. . . I imagine it's very christian of them to feel the latter. So, even though it doesn't seem like it, he really is allowing them their power. He really has given them a gift. Now they can pray for him and feel superior because they still have the truth and he wasn't strong enough to keep it. That truly is a gift for a Christian.
My parents know that I'm not christian anymore. My daughter and I live in their basement. Though I know they'd be happy if we "came back to the fold" they don't really bother us about it. In fact, the people in the community are much more annoying. I've lived there most of my life and they are trying to seduce my daughter into religion. She's 12 and they come over when I'm not home, of course, and my mom lets them in and they try and socialize with my girl and make her think she's missing all this fun youthful stuff.
Sorry to deviate. I'll end with one suggestion: The Four Agreements by Luis Ruiz. Everyone in the world should read it. It's a little repetitive, and has some vague image of God that you can take or leave, but if you're feeling guilty about anything involving other people, you really need to read it.
I used to try to reason with her by discussing bible scripture, asking rational questions, etc. One day, I said something that must have hit a nerve with her.
I actually saw horror in her eyes! It was then that I realized how badly she needs that belief. She wouldn't know how to cope with life if she didn't believe in God/Jesus and all of the related dogma.
I decided then and there not to challenge her beliefs anymore. I'm sometimes tempted, especially when she challenges my lack there of, but I just remember that look on her face. Then I smile and let her believe...
The only reason you feel guilt is cause deep down inside you have a small shred of Faith in Christ left
---
Soma,
Talk about a person being a prime example of "short-sighted". You win the booby prize for that game category.
Why is it that xtians can never accept that someone who once believed in their crap, no longer holds even a tiny morsel of 'faith' about it being real.
They so need to believe that once you've been part of the club, that you can never ever leave it fully.
Of course, anything that goes wrong in your life once you reject their creed, is because you no longer have god protecting your back.
Any guilt we feel about anything, also must be for the same stupid reason.
Soma, it's time to open those two eye's up and see what's outside your bubble walls.
Your faith is nothing but an emotional need to believe in something bigger than yourself, that you can turn to when you're scared or troubled.
Beyond that, it's all just an imaginary friend....or would that be 'fiend'.
ATF
You and I were blessed to be born into families that are part of the religion that has the fullness of Truth. Your testimony only affirms the bible and its prophecy of the great apostasy. We are living the great apostasy. You and millions of others are being misled by the world and its belief that everything must be explainable through rationality (ie. rationalism).
These are really sad times for this reason but the good news is that we are also living in a time of extreme grace. You already know that your parents will respond with more prayers for you, don't you. You should also know that God will intervene in your life in response to their prayers.
Whether or not you listen to His call is your choice.
The supernatural is more real than the natural and God has testified time and time again to this Truth. The Catholic faith has the fullness of Truth and you should really have a long hard look again. With a humble and sincere heart God will hear your call and remove the scales from your eyes.
Blessings,
Norm
Don't feel guilty. Coming out to your parents on Christmas day was apropos. You were going to have to do it sooner or later, and the day that we use to celebrate Jesus' fictitious birthday was most appropriate. They'll get over it and so will you.
Yes, as others have mentioned, religious people don't change their minds just because they are presented with facts opposing their sacred beliefs. They believe because of emotional reasons. Deconversion, if and when it ever occurs, is a personal realization - they have to do it on their own.
Cheers
Sweet of yer god to waylay one of his pious fellowers on such a holy day.
Must be a test.
Your god isn't mysterious; he's just an asshole.
What a sad story! It is sad because we all have families and most of us enjoy spending the holidays with our families and friends. Regardless of our religious beliefs, many of us will celebrate the holidays and enjoy that precious time we have with our loved ones.
I am fortunate that my family is pretty Zen about the whole religion thing. We respect each other's different religious or non-religious beliefs and nobody gets their panties in a bunch about it. However, if my parents or my kids or anyone else in my family had a strong belief in God I would respect that and steer clear of any religious talk.
I know that many of us get caught up in our new found freedom from religion and feel the need to share our joy but we also need to be sensitive to other's feelings. It was Christmas, a very special day for Christians. It is a time for sharing love and food and friendship, not destroying peoples dreams and illusions. There is a time and place for everything. Clearly this was not the time!
I remember when I was a little girl and my whole family would get together for Christmas. I really enjoyed spending time with my cousins and aunts and uncles. I had one aunt and uncle who were Jehova's Witnesses. They were so obnoxious that they insisted in trying to convert everyone during those precious few times we got together. Eventually, my parents and other aunts and uncles got fed up with them and stopped inviting them over. I never saw my JW cousins again! How sad! We lost touch because of their inability to respect others beliefs!
If we don't learn to be more respectful of others beliefs than we are no better than those obnoxious Jehova's Witnesses we pike fun at all the time! We don't need to "play along" with their religious traditions but we do need to respect their right to believe what they wish.
Norm is a prime example of how religion excuses and even applauds the invasion of other people's business, not to mention an apparent opinion that religion grants a divine right to trespass on private property and ignore the just requests of the property owners.
Again, troll, please do not post here ever again. You are not welcome.
Kisses, hugs, a pat on the rump, and a sharp kick to your posterior, in love.
Was the church right in the middle ages or is it right today. Shouldn't the one true faith be the same now as it was then. If it was wrong in the middle ages, but correct now, can you pinpoint that moment in time when it went from being wrong to being right?
I'm not just being difficult. I'd really like to know how you resolve these issues.
The Matrix was a good reference point to use in the original post because The Matrix was a brilliant way of showing people that what they believe in can be turned upside down...Cypher, ironically says in the movie in the beginning..."Fasten your seatbelt, Dorothy...because Kansas is goin' bye bye."
The original poster talked about the Gospel of Mark...very observant...because it's also the only gospel where Christ's *own* mother thought he was being unreasonable. I'm saying this charitably because others who've read this scene in the Mark gospel have stated it proved Mary thought Christ her own son was insane. It doesn't say this explicitly...but the thought did occur to me as I looked through that part of the story over and over.
There is no day to leave the "faith" and hope to escape unscathed. Whether it's Christmas Day or New Year's Day or whatever. Leaving the fold is a painful process because you're going to lose friends and family forever. Melissa Etheridge explains this powerfully in the song "Meet Me in The Dark". That song was about her affirmation for being gay...but it applies to other situations such as coming out as an atheist. The world needs a voice like Melissa Etheridge. She is a bright light in an otherwise darkening horizon filled with bigotry for "other".
Religious faith, if believed uncritically can be as dangerous as Nazism. Especially if religious belief is coupled with a blinding "love" of a social cohesive network - like the Catholic Church or any other Christian "faith" group. Anyone...no matter how kind, gentle or considerate who is *not* of that fold...is ignored because that person doesn't "believe". That person is in danger of being "damned" or condemned to "Hell".
I do hope we get more courageous announcements like the one from the Archbishop of Canterbury telling people to get over their infantile beliefs in fairy tales which simply have to stop being believed in. All religious believers who believe in their own faiths are atheists to any other religious belief system which they naturally call "evil".
Rationality is bad? If you can't figure something out through reason, what have you? Blind faith. How do you know, except for the happenstance of birth, that the Catholic religion is the true and correct brand of religion leading you to the true and correct god? You can't use reason to figure it out, only blind faith. Having faith means you pretty much accept the first faith message introduced to you. I could replace the "Catholic" with any denomination of Christianity and it could have been said by anyone in any of those denoms- baptist, mormon, lutheran, JW, assembly of god..etc.
I do though have to say, having married into a catholic family after being raised baptist, that catholicism was the must ludicrous and inane of the two options.
Good luck with that.
One last thing though before Norm hits the road. True story. Two days ago I was cleaning the house and ran across a rosary my MIL left here, I pitched it in the garbage. In the past I have also thrown away annointing oil, holy water, a mary statue, smashed a joseph on the floor and probably half a dozen rosaries of various sizes and colors. Pbbbbbbt... idol worshipper.
Sometimes we need to push back when the more militant and obnoxious Christians want to force their beliefs on the public through various legislation, of course, but Christianity does sometimes have its usefulness to get people through the day. Not everyone is strong enough to live in a nihilist's universe!!
- James
So therefore catholics are all hell bound.
Southern Baptist
You are insane. Get some help. Seriously. Or the story of your arrest for something heinous may show up on this site.
Your most recent homily has been deleted.
wha wHA WHA
We are here to cope with the realization that we were mistaken, and to cope with a world that feels obligated to foist their mistakenness back upon us. Sometimes with loving threats of everlasting torture. If you’re here to thrust your rod of correction into our faces then you don’t belong here. We don’t swallow that any more.
Nobody goes to hell on this blog. Not Catholics, not atheists, not pagans. Please take your idle threats elsewhere.
Nor do we play favorites with the various Christian schismatics. You, the Catholics, the Moonies—you’re all equally mistaken. Please take your pointless arguments over Jesus, Mary, and other fictional characters elsewhere.
wm,
When you say "private property" I assume you mean this website. If you want to keep it private then assign usernames and passwords. Otherwise it seems as though you are inviting anyone to post whatever they like here. If this website really is to support and help those who have left Christianity behind them then allowing non-xians to post here seems counter-productive to that end. All the arguing and slander, from both directions, does keep the attendance up though doesn't it?
you, wm, are a pathetic individual that is clearly afraid of what certain christians have to say. your behavior only raises my doubts about believing in a world without purpose
you can take your site and stick it! i'll look to other sites that don't manipulate discussions to have it reflect their opinions!
oh! gawd forbid should someone attempt to answer some questions
sheesh
This Christmas I got the book "I don't have the faith to be an atheist" from my dad. Last year he gave me another apologetics book. We are a very non confrontational family. He is a literal Bible fundamentalist, I am a former 20 + years Christian. We couldnt be more far apart in philosophy, but we get along great in the garden and working on home improvement projects. In my opinion, I would rather help my dad pick tomatoes than argue Bible contradictions.
If he wants to talk about religion, then I will let him bring it up.
"your behavior only raises my doubts about believing in a world without purpose"
Care to clarify on what your version of a "World Without Purpose" means Anonymous?
In general, people can post whatever they want here. The WM is extremely tolerant of off-topic discussions and/or dissenting views. But occasionally there are visitors who abuse this privilege and they need to be reined in. In extreme cases, expunging their posts is appropriate. (More on this below.) In any case, that it totally up to the WM. It's his web site.
Anonymous complained "you, wm, are a pathetic individual that is clearly afraid of what certain christians have to say."
Anonymous, your comment is absurd. Look in almost any thread here and you'll see dozens of long rambling posts from Christians. They proselytize, evangelize, debate, complain, explain, plead, threaten, and essentially filibuster all the time. But sometimes enough is enough. Take "Norm" for example. He has spewed essentially the same nonsense in dozens of threads under numerous pseudonyms, and many of us have had very long (and fruitless) discussions with him. Over time he proved to be simply repetitive and annoying, so he was asked to leave--numerous times. Because he continued to post his dreary redundant self-centered monologues, the WM finally decided to start deleting his posts. If you think this is somehow unfair, I'd love to hear your rationale.
By the way, NOBODY here is afraid of what Christians have to say. They are routinely invited and even cajoled into explaining their points of view. Indeed, I go out of my way to LOOK for visiting Christians who might be able to maintain an intelligent discussion. Unfortunately, those are few and far between.
Anonymous concluded "you can take your site and stick it! i'll look to other sites that don't manipulate discussions to have it reflect their opinions! ...gawd forbid should someone attempt to answer some questions"
Can you show me a Christian website that allows atheists and skeptics to post as much as they like? There may be some out there, but they are surely in the minority. Most do not take kindly to having dissenting views being posted. I've been castigated at Christian sites for merely divulging that I am an atheist. Others have had their comments deleted for bringing up evolution. Surely you can see the difference between the WM's policy and such blatant censorship.
As for answering questions, the majority of visiting Christians are very poor at it; often they ignore what is said to them, or they simply cut-paste-and-run. In contrast, anyone who wishes to ask questions of us will normally get full and direct answers. The favor is rarely returned by visiting Christians (although some do).
You spoke of feeling a "vindictive streak," and one of the other posters used this to say that you should feel guilty. That's nonsense. The "vindictiveness" you feel, it sounds like, is just self-protective anger against someone who is defending a brainwashing system. That that person is your mother makes the need for protection stronger, because our parents, re: of our age, have strong emotional holds on us.
This is not to say anything against your mother--in all likelihood, she is doing, now, what she was taught was right to do, just as she did when she raised you Catholic. People can do harmful things with the best of intentions.
My advice is to stop beating yourself up. Given that you are a recent "deconvert" of Catholicism, I am fairly sure you have already beat yourself up far more than any person unencumbered by Catholic guilt.
I'm glad for you that you have the courage to come out.
I couldn’t have stated things any more clearly than you just did. Thanks.
Dave the Human and anonymous:
When I say "private property," I mean that this website is privately owned. Obviously this website is not intended to be only privately viewed.
This blog has been up and running in its present form, with periodic upgrades and adjustments, for nearly six years now. I don’t see a reason to make any major changes at this point, but thanks for the politely worded suggestions.
By way of analogy, my house is private property and sits on a public thoroughfare in a crowded city neighborhood. The house is not surrounded by a privacy fence and is clearly visible from every direction. My doors and windows are generally wide open during nice weather, and pedestrians stroll right past my front and side doors. Sometimes I have guests in. Sometimes beggars knock on the door asking for handouts. However, I don’t believe an open door policy at either my home or on this website gives an implied right to every passerby to camp out on my lawn or set up housekeeping in my living room.
As delineated in the Site Purpose and Disclaimer, “ Posters can expect to have all of their posts deleted if they simply copy and paste the same basic message repeatedly on multiple pages.”
Marc, otherwise known as Norm on this thread, has repeated violated this part of the disclaimer. I would suggest that those who have not already read the site disclaimer might want to do so soon.
Oh, and believe it or not, many of the Christians who post here quite often do succeed in significantly encouraging those of us who have decided to leave religion behind. For some reason, one very effective apologetic against religion seems to be religionists.
Now, might I make the request that we just get back to the topic of the original thread?
Peace.
Convincing to whom? To those who already believe?
Nobody knows who wrote the gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are guesses at authorship that were made in the 2nd century.
The authors of Matthew and Mark do not claim to be eyewitnesses. Luke says explicitly that it is a recounting of others’ stories (Luke 1:1-4). John makes an eyewitness claim, but does not claim that the author is the eyewitness. In fact, there is so much mind-reading in John that it can’t be an eyewitness account.
The gospels were written by Hellenists. There are too many errors in their “inerrant” works for the authors to have even been familiar with Judea. The crucifixion accounts tell of a wimpy Pontius Pilate and a Sanhedrin that ignores its own procedures. The whole set reeks of Midrashic extrapolations based on misreadings and misinterpretations of Septuagint mistranslations.
And then there are the miracles. Our experience tells us that miracles do not happen; indeed, if they did, then they would not be miracles. David Hume wrote, “no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless the testimony be of such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.” In other words, it is more probable that the gospels are tall tales than that anyone saw the events reported therein.
One needs not be dogmatic to claim that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. OTOH, one needs to be blind to claim that they are.
My wife asked me to please not bring up religion at our x-mas eve get together this year and I said fine. I won't bring it up or discuss it unless someone else brings it up. That is my rule in my home. I won't bring up the subject but no one else had better bring it up either.
My 19 year old son was recently given the book, the Portable Atheist, by his girlfriend. His mother asked him was he an atheist and he replied he wasn't sure. Later, he told me he didn't have the heart to disappoint his mother. I was proud of him for that. Jim Earl
what do you think dumbass! everything you and the pathetic wm write about gives no purpose to life! at least these christians have some kind of hope. i'm looking into those veriffiable miracles this norm guy talked about because this beliving that we come from f---all is bullshit!
i'm starting to think that i'm a damned idiot to think that life sprouted from dick all! because of this wm, this site deserves one colloasal f---you boycot.
sheesh
If you want to make religion your purpose for living, that's your choice. But from your tone, that purpose doesn't sound very appealing.
Have a great day!
Here we are. WE are the only life on earth that seem to "require" a purpose. The purpose we require are chosen by each of us. Why is this so terrifying?
For me, I just try to enjoy my short time and see if I can't make the world I am apart of a little better. I live so my kids are better off and better prepared for their lives than I was. I live so that my wife and I can see how many orgasms we can reach before death (unfortunately we lost count long ago).
Food tastes better, sex is more potent, and my love is more genuine now that I realized god doesn't exist. I am in control of my own decisions and my own reactions to chance. No one is out to punish me (except people), no one is blessing me. It is all reaction and planning.
Submitter, I must say I hear what you are saying. We got through christmas with my folks with a lot of deep breaths and booze. After three drinks of tawny port, it didn't bother me that my family was so deeply deluded.
It is really hard when you are both an idealist and raised to be evangelical about your beliefs. I mean, damn!! I was raised evangelical christian, when I left christianity I became somewhat evangelical about atheism.. spread the good news, etc! I sometimes wish I was always atheist so I would feel so compelled to spread the word. Does that make any sense?
Anyways.. It is a shame there is so much hatred here and in the world at the moment. There is so much work to do and so many suffering, but I feel that many would rather increase the suffering of others rather than help to remove it. Maybe once my debt to society and banks is cleared, I can join the peace corps and try and make things better where there is so little hope.
Happy holidays everyone.
Cling to what is good in your life. Screw everything else.
wonka
I've got news for you---whether Christian, Muslim, Atheist or whatever---if what the "wm" posts on this site dictates whether or not your life has "purpose", then you've got serious problems, jerky. lol!
i've already decided you're all doorknobs for thinking that an inanimate universe produced walking, talking, thinking people! you've all got your heads stuck so far up your ass you can't see anything but your own shit.
you all talk like you know shit but its nothing but bullshit and you know it. what kind of shit for brains arrogance do you all have to think that the most complex thing in our universe, us!, came from random mutation! and f---you with your natural selection argument, you're still getting this complex organism from random mutation. not a f---ing chance.
if you think i'm arrogant and a jerk! take a long hard look in the mirror pal.
you can lol all you want BOOB but i'm taking steps to clean up this life i f---ed up and it ain't gonna happen by following or beliving any of the drivel from this slanted site
"what do you think dumbass! everything you and the pathetic wm write about gives no purpose to life! at least these christians have some kind of hope."
So you don't think that having the following brings purpose:
1) Having a good career
2) Having a loving spouse
3) Having a nice home
4) Achieving success
5) Having good friends
If you think those following 5 examples give no purpose in life, then I suggest the next time you call someone a "Dumbass" that you go look in a mirror.
You obvious don't have the capacity of carrying on a mature conversation due to your "Immature juvenile" behavior.
Grow up, and stop hiding behind your computer monitor. Nobody on this site is impressed with your so called "Tough Talk". You are a coward, and a loser.
Sheesh! *rolls eyes*
Sheesh apparently has "No Purpose" in life himself. His only purpose in life is to come onto this site and call people names. He is not capable of having an intelligent conversation.
Thanks for showing all of us your ignorance Sheesh. Nobody is impressed with your so called "Tough Talk", and name calling.
You must be a really miserable and angry person.
FYI, if you don't like this site, then simply leave and go create your own message board. WM is not going to change the rules on this site just to please some little piss ant like yourself, so go whine and cry somewhere else.
WM will run this site any way he wants to so if you don't like it then that is just too bad for you.
Grow up and get a life. *rolls eyes*
That's why I call people names and choose to insult WM. God should do us all a favor and remove me from this planet, because I am a waste of oxygen.
It also angers me because people like WM, Boomslang, and other non-believers actually have found a way to have a successful purpose driven life outside of christianity, which I have not been able to do.
Yours truly,
Sheesh
You can have a life outside of religion. We are all proof of that. I spent most of my life in christianity but my life has improved greatly since I left the flock. Shake off your delusions and enter the world of reality. It's hard at first but well worth the effort in the long run. Good luck. Jim Earl
There, you’ll find True Believers™ commiserating with one another over how weary they are of life and how they are praying for the End Times® so they can leave this horrible, wicked world which provides them nothing but sadness.
Some take a more optimistic view, however. They are joyful whenever they hear news of new or worsening turmoil in the Mideast, signifying that Armageddon is at hand and this world will be ending soon. Glory!
You’ll also find some good advice. Example: Don’t waste your time pursuing a higher education because education exposes one to evil thoughts, and Jesus is sure to return before you finish your degree, anyway. Yup, it’s going to happen. Soon. Any day now.
Oh, one word of caution for atheists, agnostics, and other free-thinkers: Don’t even bother trying to post an opposing viewpoint. Like most Christian websites, Rapture Ready does not allow alternative opinions.
— Thackerie (who thinks that there’s no meaning in a life lived believing life is merely a waiting room)
what immense joy for me to know this fact of which so many can't grasp! not because i'm better that any of you but because i'm blessed! let the spirit continue to dwell in me and keep teaching me to stop cursing your foolish ways. you actually dont know any better
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
And
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
Christians that desire to be with Gzus, do not do anything to prolong your life, you'll soon be with the Big J, just imagine spending an eternity worshipping a smelly old man with a beard, eating moldy bread and stale wine three times a day for eternity.
Your earlier statements tell all of us just what a miserable person you really are, so don't try covering up your earlier posts where you called everyone names.
You are a prime example of christian hypocrisy Sheesh. You cuss and call others names, and then you praise God next. Thank you for revealing what a hypocritical fraud that you are.