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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
Sent in by Jason
From the first day I was able to be away from home as a newborn child, I attended church. My parents are Christians, and my mother’s parents are Christians and they believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. The vast majority of friends I ever had up until college were other kids that went to church with me.
Growing up, we were taught that it was best to marry another Christian, so I did. Though we both lived pretty loosely at the time of our initial meeting, my wife and I never lost hold of the faith and traditions instilled within us. Upon marrying, my wife and I both made concerted efforts to try to live a more godly life and seemed to succeed at doing so.
We have had four children (the oldest being nearly 9 years old) and have raised them the same way we were, attending church, and obeying the rules and regulations set forth by the infallible Bible give to us by the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. As we were likewise taught, we have warned our children of disobedience to us, and by extension God, as well as the eternal consequences of sinful decisions. Then something happened.
A few years ago, my wife’s brother (who at the time was struggling with his own faith as he was unable to defend it from seemingly easy questions about the inerrancy of the Bible and the nature of God) introduced me to a document I believe he had found online. If you were to visualize a lifetime of Christian beliefs as a tall, elaborate house of cards, this document was the equivalent of someone lightly bumping into the table upon which it stands. The cards didn’t come tumbling down, but the whole thing shook precariously for a bit. This document was a thorough study on many other Christ-like deities and respective belief systems including many that predated Christianity, which shared many of the same properties like a messiah-like figure miraculously conceived, of virgin birth, who was crucified, and raised from the dead (to name only a few). At that moment, I felt a profound sense of doubt about my beliefs, which unfortunately, I immediately sublimated due to the possible ramifications of losing my faith that quickly ran through my head. I thought that if I were to un-convert, my life would be inexorable changed, my physical family would disown me up to and including being written out of the will and my spiritual family would sever contact and friendly communications with me.
So, like a sheep I continued plotting the course with which I had been indoctrinated my entire life. Then within the past year, as my wife and I would sit and listen to Bible class stories and teachings, she would point out scripture to me that was never taught because it was either clearly contradictory or difficult to explain. Over the months we began to look more into the discrepancies and tyrannical nature of the Old Testament God of the Bible and were scared with what we found. The more we investigated the more unsettling it became. To truly understand how unsettling it was, you have to realize that both my wife and I could name all of the books of the Old & New Testament by the age of five. We could quote book, chapter, and verse for most of our beliefs as adolescents. We were taught (cynically) about other religions and how to answer their questions. We attended lectures, gospel meetings, and special services just to bolster the knowledge of our faith.
But what most people within a religion do not realize is that they have been taught to think from within a sphere of existing predefined conclusions. If God can never contradict Himself, then whatever logical gymnastics you perform within the constraints of that sphere to explain a contradiction will be just fine as long as the conclusion will never be that He had been contradictory. This explains the ridiculous Christian explanations you may hear or read about while studying to break free from a Christian faith. Unfortunately, this means that a believer who has been thus affected and controlled will never leave the tenacious grip of a religious belief system. Once someone seeking the honest truth will remove those constraints on free thought, it is very easy to debunk the myth of the Bible being an inerrant, God-breathed ancient book containing everything man needs to live and be acceptable in His sight.
With the help of some early doubts and especially my wife, we very recently took off the blinders. When faced with the choice to take the blue or red pill, we took the red one to see how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
Despite the liberating feeling of being utterly convinced we are doing the right thing, we still have to deal with the familial and social ramifications of this radical change in our lives. One can’t live ingrained in a conservative, Bible-Belt Christian society and not have exit wounds while extricating themselves from the mess. Even my boss is a member of the church we used to attend, so we still have many things to overcome. Still, I can tell you this: Neither, I, or my wife, or any of my children will ever life their lives in fear of a tyrannical, immature, jealous, vindictive master of the universe that watches our every move and is ready to condemn us to eternal torment for lack of obedience. My family and I will strongly challenge any religious ideas brought to us by tradition, ascribed authority, or revelation.
Free at last. Free at last.
From the first day I was able to be away from home as a newborn child, I attended church. My parents are Christians, and my mother’s parents are Christians and they believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. The vast majority of friends I ever had up until college were other kids that went to church with me.
Growing up, we were taught that it was best to marry another Christian, so I did. Though we both lived pretty loosely at the time of our initial meeting, my wife and I never lost hold of the faith and traditions instilled within us. Upon marrying, my wife and I both made concerted efforts to try to live a more godly life and seemed to succeed at doing so.
We have had four children (the oldest being nearly 9 years old) and have raised them the same way we were, attending church, and obeying the rules and regulations set forth by the infallible Bible give to us by the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. As we were likewise taught, we have warned our children of disobedience to us, and by extension God, as well as the eternal consequences of sinful decisions. Then something happened.
A few years ago, my wife’s brother (who at the time was struggling with his own faith as he was unable to defend it from seemingly easy questions about the inerrancy of the Bible and the nature of God) introduced me to a document I believe he had found online. If you were to visualize a lifetime of Christian beliefs as a tall, elaborate house of cards, this document was the equivalent of someone lightly bumping into the table upon which it stands. The cards didn’t come tumbling down, but the whole thing shook precariously for a bit. This document was a thorough study on many other Christ-like deities and respective belief systems including many that predated Christianity, which shared many of the same properties like a messiah-like figure miraculously conceived, of virgin birth, who was crucified, and raised from the dead (to name only a few). At that moment, I felt a profound sense of doubt about my beliefs, which unfortunately, I immediately sublimated due to the possible ramifications of losing my faith that quickly ran through my head. I thought that if I were to un-convert, my life would be inexorable changed, my physical family would disown me up to and including being written out of the will and my spiritual family would sever contact and friendly communications with me.
So, like a sheep I continued plotting the course with which I had been indoctrinated my entire life. Then within the past year, as my wife and I would sit and listen to Bible class stories and teachings, she would point out scripture to me that was never taught because it was either clearly contradictory or difficult to explain. Over the months we began to look more into the discrepancies and tyrannical nature of the Old Testament God of the Bible and were scared with what we found. The more we investigated the more unsettling it became. To truly understand how unsettling it was, you have to realize that both my wife and I could name all of the books of the Old & New Testament by the age of five. We could quote book, chapter, and verse for most of our beliefs as adolescents. We were taught (cynically) about other religions and how to answer their questions. We attended lectures, gospel meetings, and special services just to bolster the knowledge of our faith.
But what most people within a religion do not realize is that they have been taught to think from within a sphere of existing predefined conclusions. If God can never contradict Himself, then whatever logical gymnastics you perform within the constraints of that sphere to explain a contradiction will be just fine as long as the conclusion will never be that He had been contradictory. This explains the ridiculous Christian explanations you may hear or read about while studying to break free from a Christian faith. Unfortunately, this means that a believer who has been thus affected and controlled will never leave the tenacious grip of a religious belief system. Once someone seeking the honest truth will remove those constraints on free thought, it is very easy to debunk the myth of the Bible being an inerrant, God-breathed ancient book containing everything man needs to live and be acceptable in His sight.
With the help of some early doubts and especially my wife, we very recently took off the blinders. When faced with the choice to take the blue or red pill, we took the red one to see how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
Despite the liberating feeling of being utterly convinced we are doing the right thing, we still have to deal with the familial and social ramifications of this radical change in our lives. One can’t live ingrained in a conservative, Bible-Belt Christian society and not have exit wounds while extricating themselves from the mess. Even my boss is a member of the church we used to attend, so we still have many things to overcome. Still, I can tell you this: Neither, I, or my wife, or any of my children will ever life their lives in fear of a tyrannical, immature, jealous, vindictive master of the universe that watches our every move and is ready to condemn us to eternal torment for lack of obedience. My family and I will strongly challenge any religious ideas brought to us by tradition, ascribed authority, or revelation.
Free at last. Free at last.
I really think the academia should get together and realize how their respective fields are being abused by people with malign intent to decieve.
huh?
this is refreshing and starts my day off. Many many congratulations to you!
In the early centuries of Christian history, various groups denied the divinity of Jesus. The Adoptionists taught that Jesus was born fully human, and was adopted as God's Son when John the Baptist baptised him (Mark 1:10) because of the life he lived. Another group, known as the Ebionites, taught that Jesus was not God, but the human Moshiach (messiah, anointed) prophet promised in the Old Testament. Arianism affirmed that Jesus was divine, but taught that he was nevertheless a created being ("there was when he was not"), less divine than God the Father.
Some of these views could be described as Unitarianism (although that is a modern term) in their insistence on the one-ness of God. These views, which directly affected how one understood the Godhead, were declared heresies by the Council of Nicaea. Throughout much of the rest of the ancient history of Christianity, Christologies that denied Christ's divinity ceased to have a major impact on the life of the church.
In the modern era, a number of denominations have rejected the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity, including the Christadelphians and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Mainstream Christian churches usually regard these groups as modern versions of the Arian heresy.
The early Christians first defined exactly how Jesus is related to God the Father in the fourth century. However, this definition had taken a long time to formulate. Many of the Christological controversies of the first four centuries of the common era had direct implications for later thinking about how the human and divine are related within the person of Jesus.
The Christological positions known as Arianism, Adoptionism, and Ebionitism - groups that in one manner or another denied the divinity of Christ - and other groups, in particular those that adhered to Docetism and Gnosticism, which denied the humanity of Christ - led the fourth and fifth-century Christians to affirm that Jesus was both fully divine and fully human.
The Christological controversies came to a head at the First Council of Nicaea (325), at which the church defined the persons of the Godhead and their relationship with one another. The decisions made at Nicaea were ratified at the First Council of Constantinople (381), after several decades of ongoing controversy during which the work of Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers were influential. The language used was that the one God exists in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit); in particular it was affirmed that the Son was homoousios (of one substance) with the Father. The Creed of the Nicene Council made statements about the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus, thus preparing the way for discussion about how exactly the divine and human come together in the person of Christ (Christology).
They are not "buying into pagain origins" they are discovering the history of Christian roots. Of course you can choose to ignore it in order to continue believing, but then that just makes you a bald faced liar rather than an ignorant dupe.
As far as the respective academia fields coming together - yes, please, insist that this happen within the deep circles of your cult. Nothing destroys religion faster than a real search for the truth from outside biblical sources.
I'm fighting a battle to save souls.
I understand some people are ex-Christians and want to find some trump card to slap those who remain Christians with, but not with this nonsense. Persisting in holding onto these makes you no better than a fundamentalist who believes God put dinosaurs into the fossil layer to test the faithful.
A.B.
Gia***<3
PS: There's tons of support in the Freethinking community.
myspace.com/awlheart
Oh, and about your question as to whether we've ever been to church - Yes we have. In fact, quite a few used to stand up at the front of the church as pastors and spew the same twaddle you're typing.
"Eventually trace your logic back far enough and answer me this ONE question. What is the first uncaused cause?"
What 'caused' God? Why does the 'logic' dictate that the first uncaused cause must be supernatural? If 'God' can just 'be', so can the natural universe.
Even if you have an answer for that than what caused that? Eventually trace your logic back far enough and answer me this ONE question. What is the first uncaused cause?
end quote
WOW! You are SO RIGHT!
You follow the chain back and keep looking for a cause and keep looking... so, who created your god? Seriously!
Obviously you have to keep following this chain of cause, right?
Oh wait, Quantum physics has observed effects without cause, and effects prior to cause. So, within a completely scientific worldview, there are observable, testable, and repeatable causeless effects.
If you can provide observable, testable, and repeatable evidence of god (NOT TESTIMONY, that is OPINION) I will gladly believe.
Abarton:"Rick, that was quite some outburst."
You must lead a sheltered life to think that what Rick said was "quite some outburst".
I thought it was pretty tame myself. Of course, I doubt any ex-christian here has yet to take the gloves off with you.
It is hard at first to reorganize your lives without the church.
We are in a similar situation. We have had to find new ways to make friends, new ways to socialize the kids, and in many cases, find new friends since the old ones have left.
I feel a lot like the church has been a crutch for being social.. you had insta-friends by attending various bible studies.. sometimes you get closer to some of them, sometimes not.
We are getting to the point where it is getting easier and we are finding there are more secular places to meet people than we thought. I can imagine, depending on location, that this can be very daunting. There are social networks that may help to find other families in the same boat.
Some of my religious family has just backed off about things, others like to interject their non-sense whenever they feel they can.
I am happy to report that happiness and love exist outside of religion and that dumping religion has made my marriage closer and more real than ever before. These have truly been the best 3 years of our 12 years of marriage. It keeps getting better.
Best regards,
wonka
How are you explaining this to the kids? That’s got to be a very delicate task. I can’t imagine being 9 and having my parents break the news to me that they had been fooled and that the Christian god, the devil, heaven, and hell—our entire world view—are just fairy tales. How could my parents be so mistaken about something so profound?
Possibly worse are the existential implications. You didn’t say whether or not you still believe in any sort of afterlife, but if you don’t, it must be hard. Losing my belief in immortality has been tough for me in my 40s; i can’t imagine how such a loss would have affected me at age 9.
(Preemptive note to Christians: don’t bother telling me that heaven and hell are real. You’d be sooo wasting your breath. Really.)
What about all the people of the world who do not share your particular myth? Check it out, christianity is a small minority when it comes to the beliefs of the other people of the world.
You are kind of waisting your time here on this site.
The whole world needs you out there spewing your BS.
I suggest you all head over to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other muslim countries and tell them how to believe. Your bodies will be shipped back in two pieces, your head and the rest of you in a body bag. Be thankful that all that can happen to you here is that you will get your silly asses kicked a bit.
The watchmaker
Vote Ron Paul 2008
Have a great day all
That video compares a watch to self reproducing organisms that change over time. It is a false analogy.
Also, It is a false dichotomy to say that if evolution were proven fallacious that makes a god real. It could be that neither proposition is correct.
I was thinking of supporting Ron Paul, But now....
What really worries me, abarton, is that so many of us have been ignorant of that fact for centuries.
Jason,
Good luck. And I have to say that as hard as it may be for you, you probably know how lucky you are to have your wife by your side. It is incredibly painful to have a spouse in the fold.
Awww.....aren't you cute with your posts? I see Dan that you are back once again to fight the good fight for Jesus. You have once again given into your "Posting Addiction" by returning to "Ex-Christian.Net". I knew you would return here again someday, considering I know just how predictable christians like you are.
Wouldn't it be a shame if your God turns out to be Allah, or some other God instead of the christian God.
How are christians like you ever going to deal with it if it all turns out to be a lie?
Most American Christians are too chicken shit to go to these Muslim countries. They would rather hide their sorry SUV Asses over here in there little "American Bubble" where it is much safer for them.
Plus most American christians know deep down that if they were physically tortuured by muslims, they would reject Christ in a heartbeat if they had to face some "Real Persecution".
So "American Christians" choose to stay here in the comfort of their American Homes, and post on this site where it is safer for them because most "American Christians" can't handle nothing more severe than "Verbal Abuse".
Most American Christians are too chicken shit to go to these Muslim countries. They would rather hide their sorry SUV Asses over here in there little "American Bubble" where it is much safer for them.
Plus most American christians know deep down that if they were physically tortuured by muslims, they would reject Christ in a heartbeat if they had to face some "Real Persecution".
So "American Christians" choose to stay here in the comfort of their American Homes, and post on this site where it is safer for them because most "American Christians" can't handle nothing more severe than "Verbal Abuse".
I came out as an atheist to my wife and family a few months ago, though I had admitted it to myself about a year ago. It has been bitter sweet. Mentally I feel liberated and freed from the bondage of ignorance and oppression to plain truths.
My faith was rocked as I studied for my masters degree in history and realized that there were so many parallels in culture and religion through the centuries that you could see how one evolved into another. Also, the problems with ancient textual reliability is always suspect, but I was a McDowell disciple who tried to reason the bible was somehow different. Reason won out and I saw Christianity for what is was, just one of a long string of religions based on man made myths of super-heros and divine beings. No different from Greek or Hindu mythology.
But my change in beliefs has hit my family hard. I have tried to play along and believe harder for the sake of domestic peace, but I could not sit through another sermon biting my tounge. My wife thinks I have somehow 'changed' and is now in fear of me going to hell. Because I dont believe in Jesus anymore, she assumes I have nothing to live for. She is going to a "christian" counselor for help who thinks that a praying wife is a powerful tool for change in the family.
You are lucky to have a spouse who was understanding and changed with you. The pain this is causing my family is immense and the pressure to conform back into the fold is high. Ignorace is bliss, and sometimes I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.
Truth is you were NEVER a Christian. I have posted this before but it is too important not to post it again:
Deconversion? Anyone that considers themselves to be past Christians, or ex Christians, or left Christianity, are fooling themselves in fact it's an oxymoron. Are you posing that you can lose your salvation? If you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says he gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish? If you can lose it then Jesus should have said, "and they may perish..." or "they CAN perish." But he said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. So, will they never perish? Or can they?
A true Christian cannot turn away from God. Here is why. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Now look at 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED if they were really Christians to begin with.
Now a question for you. Are you saying that the Spirit begins the work of salvation in us and that we work it out and complete it by remaining faithful? That IS what you are saying, that we get saved and keep it by the effort of our works, right? Check this out. Galatians 3:1-3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
Jesus taught it. He said those with eternal life will NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. " Well, will they perish or not? Jesus says those with eternal life will NEVER perish. I believe Him. Do you?
It isn't too late you are not a throw away from God. Repent today and Trust! in Jesus and you WILL have everlasting life. You are not an ex Christian or a prior Christian you are a stony ground hearer or false convert. It isn't too late!
What fruit will grow in a True Christians life:
1. Repentance - A 180 degree turn away from sinful behavior and towards Godly behavior.
2. Thankfulness - A thankful heart that is grateful for what God has done... and shows itself in a cheerful disposition.
3. Good Works - A life that becomes others centered (helping the aged, feeding the poor, teaching children, etc.) Not self centered (all free time consumed in personal hobbies and interests)
4. Fruit of the Spirit - An ever-growing capacity of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self control in the life of the believer.
5. Fruit of Righteousness - Doing the right thing according to the way God defines it in his word. Not according to the way man defines it in his own mind.
We are here to get fruit bearing Christians not decisions for Christ to fill pews.
If we understand the parable in Mark 4:3-13 then it unlocks the secret to all parables: Foolish virgin=false convert Wise virgin=Genuine conversions. The good fish, the bad fish. The man who built his house on rock and the man who built his house on sand. The one who built his house on sand is the one who hears the word of Jesus but doesn't keep them. False Convert.
6 characteristics of a False Convert:
1. Mark 4:5 - Lack depth of understanding. Immediate results impressive changes occur quickly then false convert will fall away from their faith over time and the results and changes disappear.
2. Luke 8:6 - False convert lack moisture in other words they lack the life-giving and life-sustaining power of God's word. To a false convert the Bible is dry and uninteresting and struggles with daily devotions.
3. Matthew 13:6 - False convert have no roots like a plant that dries up when the heat comes because it's roots aren't deep enough to reach water to sustain it. So is the false convert who's faith dries up where persecution comes his roots of faith don't run deep enough to reach the life sustaining water of God's word and Holy Spirit.
4. Mark 4:16 - False Converts receive the word with gladness. Hears the gospel message with gladness and really seems to latch on to it. He may express, for example, with tear filled eyes of joy. How this is the answer he's been looking for. When any test or trials comes his way, excuses become his trademark he falls away from following Jesus.
5. Matthew 13:20 - Repeats that same point false convert receive the word with joy (at first)
6. Luke 8:13 - Because they do believe for a season this is the one that fools the most people because they do believe, for a short time, the Gospel message. These false converts walk and talk a very good game. They often sincerely believe the Vital truths. That Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died a sacrificial death and rose from the earth and that he was fully man and fully God. they believe those things in their mind. When it comes time to deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Jesus into test and self sacrifice the false convert displays, slowly but surely, the truth that they never believed in their hearts. Never made that commitment to Christ and eventually becomes distracted by the worries and opportunities of life and lives for himself not Christ.
I confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart. I was baptized and 'born again'. I was as real a christian as anyone else. What other requirements are there Dan? Even though I dont believe in Christ anymore, I detest your smug proclamitaion that anyone who has left the xtian faith was never a 'real chirstian'...Look up the 'no true Scotsman' fallicy.
But the truth is that Christianity is not real, therefore there are no 'real Christians'.
I fail to understand why you choose to post scripture on this site, when you know that none of us are going to take it seriously.
Dan Marvin Said for the 1,000th time: "Truth is you were NEVER a Christian."
Ok Dan, once again I will remind you:
MAT 7: 1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
So Dan, since you judge others on here, you are now going to face judgment also, because you have judged us.
Oh ye, hypocrite.
Neither are true and both so choked will logical inconsistencies and fantasy that only a fool could say in his heart "this is the word of god"
Does God accept the repentance and sincerity of people as a means of obtaining forgiveness of sins? No, He does not. Think about it: if we appealed to God to forgive us based upon what we have done (repented), or what is in our hearts (sincerity), then we are seeking to be made right before God by our own efforts - and this amounts to pride. The fact is that our repentance and sincerity are not enough to merit forgiveness of sins. There is nothing we can do in word, deed, or heartfelt intent that will satisfy an infinitely holy God. If there were, then righteousness would be based upon what we do instead of the sacrifice of Christ (Eph. 2:21). But, Jesus did have to die because we cannot fulfill the perfect Law of God. Why? Because we have been touched by sin in our hearts, minds, and bodies.
Since we can do nothing to merit God's love and forgiveness, He is the only One left who can remove our sin. This is why God had to come down in the form of a man (John 1:1,14), in order to shed His blood, wash away our sins (Acts 22:16), and make us right before God the Father by faith (Rom. 5:1). God's holiness is too great to accept anything wrought by the heart or hand of man.
You are so easy to predict.
What's the matter Dan, are you bored?
Is your wife not putting out or something, and you have become sexually frustrated?
I realize that man does not live on Masturbation alone.
Seriously, though, we ex-Christians have been to the same kinds of churches as you. We've had the same warm fuzzy feelings when we sing hymns and raise our arms to the Lord. We were saved, just as much as you are. I used to seriously believe in god, I had accepted Jesus as my Lord and saviour, et cetera. Now I don't. No bible verse can change what actually happened in the past.
Don't waste your time with brother Dan. You are talking to a prime example of a "Certified, Bonafied Lunatic".
Dan Marvin is someone who has lost complete touch with reality, and no matter what you tell him, he cannot understand you, because his cultic belief system has made him insane, and he no longer has the ability to see things from a logical point of view.
I hope that the good folks from the local "Mental Hospital" in his city are able to find him and put him back in his padded cell where he belongs.
As annoying as it is to many people, I have to admit that I for one enjoy seeing poor Dan make a fool out of himself on this site by his constant and meaningless bible chatter.
STFU. Please.
What would you think of someone who tried to convince you that Finding Nemo was a true story? Well, that’s exactly how you look to us.
On top of that, telling us that we were never Christian in the first place is a display of unbelievable arrogance. As nice as it would have been never to have been suckered by Christianity, i still find it insulting for you to deny my life history. Can you read our minds? Then how can you possibly know? Did a preacher tell you? Can he read our minds?
Go away. You are not helping anyone here. You’re a waste of bandwidth and a nagging pest.
No I am actually sending emails out wanna see what I am sending? OK then:
Dear Can't Spell,
I am writing to you out of concern for our country. We are in trying times, as we approach 2008 and a new presidential election, we face uncertainty in knowing who will lead our great nation into the future.
One individual who stands above all other, the Thomas Jefferson of our day, has caused me to take notice. I would like to take this opportunity to introduce you to the man who I strongly believe is meant to guide us as our next President: Ron Paul.
Congressman Paul (R-TX) is a 10-term member of the US House of Representatives. As a physician, he has specialized in obstetrics for 40 years, delivering over 4,000 babies. He served his country for five years as a flight surgeon in the US Air Force. Dr. Paul is running for President in 2008 to defend our divinely-inspired Constitution.
Ron Paul is pro-life, a staunch believer of family values, and opposed to federal funding of stem cell research. Dr. Paul wants to protect our national sovereignty, improve our economy and take a firm stance on illegal immigration. He has worked tirelessly to defend and restore the rights of all Americans, born and unborn alike. Ron Paul is the champion of liberty to practice our faith free from the encroachment of government.
He has been married to his wife Carol for over 50 years, and has been blessed with five children, 18 grandchildren and one great-grandchild. He is the most principled person I have ever heard, incredibly honest and genuine, and a man of great integrity. Ron Paul has great reverence for the Natural Rights.
Please take a moment to watch a brief introductory video,
* Ron Paul Introductory Video
I would also like to invite you to visit teaparty07.com. "This December 16th, American citizens will dump millions of dollars into the Ron Paul presidential campaign to protest the oppressive and unconstitutional inflation tax - which has enabled a flawed foreign policy, a costly war and the sacrificing of our liberties here at home."
Thank you for your time, and thank you for your willingness to consider Dr. Ron Paul for President. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or RonPaul2008.com.
Sincerely,
Dan Marvin, Supporter of Dr. Ron Paul
The Ron Paul 2008 Meetup Group,
Please note, I am not affiliated with Dr. Ron Paul nor his campaign. I am simply a concerned American wishing to make a positive future for all of us. For more information, visit RonPaul2008.com
Perhaps I need to quote "Ephesians 5:22-24,33 to my wife about how she is supposed to be submissive to me.
The willingness to accept personal revelation as universal truth is at the heart of irrationalism.
Even though I am not associated with him, I really wish a "Libertarian like "Jessie Ventura" would run for president.
Please vote for the legalization of marijuana and prostitution.
I'd love to stay and chat with you old pal, however there is life outside of the internet and other ancient beliefs.
However, I promise to return in the near future.
Happy Preaching!
Sorry Dan, but I "DO NOT" have any interest in voting for someone who has a "Right Winged" agenda.
I couldn't leave this site without having to correct my typo. Maybe one of these days I will take the time to proof read my errors before I hit the "Publish Your Comment Button".
I'm sure "Dan the man" will think that was "The Holy Spook" inside of me that caused me to type that statement incorrect.
However, that can't be possible since I wasn't saved in the first place.
Right Dan?
Adios for now!
"and opposed to federal funding of stem cell research."
Well, I guess that means Ron won't be getting my support.
Mike
Hey Dan! That's some pretty sleezy Pornography that you sent me.
Thanks!
Why don't you support "Mit Romney"?
I figured he would be more your type of guy.
Here is a fun test to see who is your candidate. I took the test and the winner was Ron Paul, Score: 46
Take the quiz
Still quoteing out of that book written by wicked liars, I see.
Still can't answer my question can you.
John Edwards
Score: 13
Rudy Giuliani
Score: 13
Barack Obama
Score: 13
Hillary Clinton
Score: 13
Joe Biden
Score: 13
Dennis Kucinich
Score: 12
Chris Dodd
Score: 12
Tom Tancredo
Score: 11
Mitt Romney
Score: 10
Duncan Hunter
Score: 9
John McCain
Score: 7
Ron Paul
Score: 6
Bill Richardson
Score: 6
Mike Gravel
Score: 5
Mike Huckabee
Score: 2
Fred Thompson
Score: 2
Ah, Dan... and who can blame her?
I know you didn't say that, Dan. But given the character flaws you've shown on this and other forums, I wouldn't be shocked if that prophesy became true one day.
You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you
Is Ron Paul really a libertarian?
</off-topic>
"I welcome all comments although I have some quirky rules like:
1.Anyone who advertises their anti-God blog I will delete it"
Yeah! No way you "truth" can take serious inquiry, or opposing views.
"2.Any cussing or blasphemy, I will delete it."
Shit.
"3 Anything contrary to glorifying God will be deleted"
So much for welcoming all comments!
"4 Anything that causes someone to stumble with their walk with Jesus I will delete it (even something I write)"
So that's why he keeps pesterin' us at our site. He runs such a tight ship even he doesn't want to be a part of it.
I don't blame you Dan, I would want to hang out with you either.
"5 Anything else that I see fit to delete I will"
Yeah! You wouldn't wan't someone telling you anything you don't want to hear. Like how to think logically and such.
I would like for you to answer one question for me. I will be greatly appreciative if you can answer it with something other than what I have come up with. Ok, here goes.... How do you know that Jesus said those things? I mean the gospels were not written by any contemporaries of his and some of the writers copied off others. This is a proven fact. So explain that away.
Yes, Paul is quite Christian, but just about everyone on this site was at one time or another; that's why it's called Ex-Christian.
Dan Marvin seems intent upon focusing on Ron Paul's "family values" and such, which is usually just coded language for "I'm a candidate who will senselessly restrict your freedoms in order to conform to 'moral standards'". I can't imagine where he got this idea, honestly. Paul is quite opposed to the restriction of freedoms.
He is pro-life, which for some people rules him out as a candidate entirely. I understand, but other than that he supports personal freedom in pretty much every possible action.
Someone said earlier that they wish a libertarian would run and win; well, in my opinion, Rep. Paul is the closest America is likely to get to a true libertarian presidential candidate for a while.
As I'm sure everyone here is all aware, Christians can twist just about anything and anybody to support their own beliefs. In this comment thread, Ron Paul has been twisted in this manner to look extremely Christian and extremely concerned with Christian issues. This is not the case, and I hope that those of you who have been put off from Rep. Paul by Dan Marvin's comments will reexamine him from a more secular point of view and, hopefully, will see that Ron Paul is the only candidate who will respect all of our freedoms, including freedom of religion.
The Bible itself states that a person can be an ex-Christian:
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
*shrugs* Sorry, buddy.
Like clockwork---of course the above assertion is utterly absurd. It goes like this, Marvin: We once believed something to be true; now we don't. Now, is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Let's see---Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Toothfairy, the Stork brings babies, invisible playmates.....you once believed it; now you don't. Marvin, no one can tell another person what they believe to be true, and what they don't believe to be true. NO rational-minded grown man or woman would attempt to tell another adult that they are mistaken---that, "yes!...you really do still believe the stork brings babies, you are just fooling yourself when you say you don't believe it!!!" Silly.
Let's take it a step further: "Ex-wives".
Are ALL women who were formerly married to abusive spouses "fooling themselves"???? Were they never "truly married"??? Did the women who got brave enough to leave their physically-abusive-asshole-husbands "not have enough Faith"??? Finally, is the term "ex-wife" an "oxymoron"??? lol! Well of course not, dufuss.
Obstinate Christian asks...Are you posing that you can lose your salvation?
Oh, cutts!...all of the time you spend on this blog?... and you STILL don't get it? STICK IN MEMORY BANK: I'm posing that there IS NO "salvation" to "lose". IS...NONE.
Even if such a thing existed and needed to be "atoned" for, a "True Christian" once told me that "salvation is a free gift"; that there's "NOTHING required" to obtain it. Then have a half of a day later, this person ate crow when they said that, yes, there ARE requirements, and listed them. Silly confused Christians.
Obstinate Christain...If you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says he gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish?
What do I, personally, do with it? I tell you to shove it up your @$$, and go find your flock.
((( You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you )))
This question that I wanted to ask Dan is a repost of mine from another thread. It was originally addressed to another christian who posts on here, however they never did reply back to it.
This is a serious question that I wanted to ask Dan Marvin, and since Dan is married I want to hear Dan's perspective on this in regards to God and marriage.
Tell me Dan, how come God would never bless any of my relationships with women? I have been engaged twice to two different girls in the past. I met both of them in church, and both of them cheated on me. I have never been content as a single person, and I burn in lust.
Paul does say that if you cannot control your sexual lust that it is better to marry. However, God never did seem to care about the fact that I was burning in lust, because he never did anything to fix either one of my engagements after my ex fiances both cheated on me, nor has God has ever made an effort to lead the right woman to me.
Even though I served him faithfully for years he never has done anything to bless me with a woman, he never has done anything to remove my desire to marry one day, and he has never done anything to remove my sexual lust. So as a result I fell into sexual sin after keeping myself pure for many years.
I was someone who served God faithfully in the church, I use to read the word, went out witnessing for Christ, and I fasted and prayed several times back when I use to go up into the mountains alone to seek his will. Even though I thought I knew "God's" will for me according to his holy word, I was always wrong. It seems that God cannot make himself clear to me.
Now explain to me why it is that you seem to be one of the "Chosen One's" who God has looked upon with favor by giving you a wife? What did you do that was so special? I thought God was no respecter of persons. If you can have a wife, why can't I have one too? God never would provide that answer to me for some reason. He's always remained silent, and has never revealed anything to me. I busted my butt trying to serve God for years, and that's the thanks I got from him.
I was told by several other christians that I need to put my faith in Jesus and be content with Jesus alone. Those same christians who told me that are also happily married, so why should I listen to them? Any christian who is married has no business telling a discontent single person like myself to be content with Jesus alone. They are hypocrites for saying that, and they are not qualified to tell me such rubbish.
Because if that were true that Jesus is enough, then why get married in the first place? God did say in Genesis that it is not good for man to be alone. He sure must think that it is good for me to be alone, and he must think it is good for me to burn in continuous lust and commit sexual sin.
I wanted to be faithfully married, and do it God's way, however God just doesn't seem to care enough about me to bless my relationships with women by not answering my prayers and leaving me to burn in lust. No thanks to him.
So tell me Dan, why are you married? Isn't Jesus enough? Did you get married because you were not content with Jesus alone?
I get so sick and tired of christians who come onto this site who are happily married. I would be happy with God too if he had blessed me with a good wife. It must be nice to lay there at night with a good woman in your arms.
I'm sure that you will say that even if God took your wife away from you, that you would still remain faithful to him. That's easy for someone like you to say that, because it has not happened to you.
Well, after years and years of struggling with getting a direct answer from God, I finally gave up and left christianity, because your so loving Jesus never did anything to help me with my sexual struggle, and as a result, I had sex with a married woman, and it broke up her family.
None of that would've ever happened if Jesus had been faithful to me like I had been faithful to him by allowing me to have a good christian wife. He says that he will not put more on me than I can handle, well because he never would allow my realtionships with other women to work out that is why I had sex with a married woman. God apparently didn't care about her family either. He knew how to stop that from happening, and don't start with me about "Free Will". I expected God to be faithful according to his word, however he was never faithful to me. It's not my fault that God never delivered the goods.
It must be nice being one of God's favorites Dan since God has supposedly blessed you with a wife. I wouldn't know since God doesn't seem to care about what I desire.
How would you like to be 37 years old and lonely? Don't say that you understand me Dan, because you don't.
Please explain why you think God has not given me a wife, and why he has not done anything to remove my desires to be married and why God has not done anything to remove my sexual lusts?
My walk with God was genuine. I was not as fortunate as you and other married christians are who love to come onto this site bragging about how God has blessed you with a wonderful spouse and family. Not all of us were as fortunate to be blessed with a wonderful spouse and family, and I don't think that is fair of your God to leave some of us out by depriving us of the same thing.
You are right I didn't say that and proof is my wife is pregnant with our fourth child. God is blessing us so much and I pray and hope the same for all of you.
Lorena responds
I know a few happy couples with 3 or more children who are also happy, Dan. Who's blessing them?
Are you saying that God impregnated your wife like he did Mary?
Is that how God is blessing you?
So you're saying that you didn't have sex with her, God did.
Wow, you christians really do give God all the credit and glory in everything. Including giving him credit for knocking up your wife for the 4th time.
That usually gets a 'valid point' from most people.
I have to sound off a bit. I never attended church as a child, maybe 10 times in my youth. Still, my parents installed a fear of God. I was afraid of anything that might suggest devil influence, I feared the evil, not that I really believe in a hell.
As I got older, I went to a Catholic high school. I was actually embarrassed that people would think I was a bad person for not belonging to a church. I had an interest in religion though.
When I entered college, I studies history, I also discovered that a lot of what I was told was bogus, so I went back over my life trying to confirm what was real and what wasn't. The more I studied christianity, the wholes were many, and as a historical document, it's obviously written with a bias of proving a point.
For example, the virgin birth, the whole christmas story... it's all there to try to prove Jesus as the Mesiah! They weren't from Bethlehem, but the prophecy said that the messiah had to be from the line of David(hard if God is the father), and be born in the city of David. So the writer of Mathew/Luke came up with a way of putting him there.
Other bits are funny.. the original hebrew text for the prophecy of the virgin birth actually doesn't say virgin. Read it, it says that the 'young woman' is with child, and by the time the child is old enough to eat curds and honey, those you are at war with(in this case, it was Judea at war with Israel and Assyria.. yup... that's what it was) will fall! It wasn't even a prophecy of the messiah! But this was tranlated wrong into greek.. and it's greek that the Matthew and Luke used for their source, so the Greek said Virgin, but the Hebrew said Young Woman. Either way, it's bogus.
Also.. I've seen nowhere except in John where it states that Jesus IS God. In the other gospels, he states that no one will know the time of the rapture, not even the son, only the father. Does it make sense that he would talk to himself? Forgive them Me, because they know not what they do? God came to earth as a man so that he could sacrifice himself on the cross to save the world, then ressurrect himself to sit at the right hand of himself in heaven?
Why do you call me great? Only the father is great?
The suggestion that Jesus IS GOD is and has always been blasphemy to me!
The problem is that when I read the old testement, the instanity, the tyranny, the evil that is done in the name of God. Killing every man woman and child, even chasing them down as they fled(Joshua), though many towns mentioned in Joshua were already rubble at the time(according to archeologists), it suggests that many of these old stories were made up to explain why there was a detroyed town, or why thre were certain caanonites with us today(some helped with Jerico, so they and their family were spared so they are still with us).
In short, I'm not sure which is worse!
However, I do NOT want to tell anyone what to believe. I attend church because my wife wants me to. It drived me crazy, I can't understand how all these grown people can believe this stuff... but they WANT to. My wife is an example... and this guy as well. He didn't want this house of cards to fall... my wife has built her life around the foundation of God. Granted, she's a very liberal christian and doesn't believe in Hell, believes in evolution, and things the great flood was stolen from the epic of gilgamesh and has a distate for right wing side of the religion as I do, but to lose that house of cards, to have any doubt about the death and ressurrection would destroy who she is.
My point.. if this is who you are, that's great, I don't want to shatter your world. I chose to build my foundtation of logic and reason. The more I research the origins of the scritures, and of the history of the church, the more I doubt it. I can't find a single bit of evidence to suggest otherwise... other than what? My wifes answer was always "well, a group of people must have really believed this, so it has to be true". Sure, and lots of people believe in UFO abductions and that the moon landing was fake... but just because there are die hard followers doesn't overcome logic and reason. But I'm not going to shatter her belief either.. or anyone else. I do this hear just to ramble and release steam.
I am lucky, the minister of our church, before we joined, was asked if those that didn't believe in Jesus as Lord could get into heaven. He said.."If I was born in Israel, i'd probably be Jewish, if Saudi Arabia, then I'd be Islam, how can my culture affect whether God accepts me into heaven". He even points out part in Mark where it says that people of several nations and faiths are saved.
Some churches would consider this a church of secular humanists. The minister didn't like the Passion of the christ because he thought that the message wasn't in the passion, but in his teachings.
He also didn't like the sacrifical view of Jesus for our sins, as this would suggest that God was limited in his power without a blood sacrifice. Think about it.. God can't overcome Satans stranglehold on man, or forgive man without sacrificing himself as an innocent to allow man to go to heaven?
Still, standing in church, reciting the Apostles creed, I cannot say the words "decended into hell, and was raised on the third day" because it never ever says this.
What also gets me is that it was a war among christian sects! Paul's flavor won by being accepted into Rome, and how did they get accepted? By adopting their winter and spring holidays, painting Jesus to look more like a long hard haired character from Roman mythology in appearance rather than the short wooly haired man described in the gospels(It's said that he looked strikingly like the great statue of Zeus, one of the seven ancient wonders).. and even moving their worship day to SUNDAY.. the say of worship for Apollo the Sun god. They morphed elements of paganism into the church and made it more palatable.
In short, Jesus was a great man, he taught people many great things about how to live our lives.. you could call it how to live Gods kingdom on earth, he pointed out the hypocracy in the temples, and this likely got him killed. A great teacher, he taught the truth, and was killed for it.
But they continued on. I think of it like Monty Pythons Life of Brian.. "NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING AT ALL!" The deciples never got it, and the whole story got crazy after this death. What would Jesus say?
I'm tired. going to bed, thanks for letting me rant... but I'll back up everything I said and document it if you like.
A daughter is telling her Mother how everything is going wrong, she's failing algebra, her boyfriend broke up with her and her best friend is moving away.
Meanwhile, her Mother is baking a cake and asks her daughter if she would like a snack, and the daughter says, "Absolutely Mom, I love your cake."
"Here, have some cooking oil," her Mother offers.
"Yuck" says her daughter. "How about a couple raw eggs?" "Gross, Mom!"
"Would you like some flour then? Or maybe baking soda?"
"Mom, those are all yucky!"
To which the mother replies: "Yes, all those things seem bad all by themselves. But when they are put together in the right way, they make a wonderfully delicious cake! "
God works the same way. Many times we wonder why He would let us go through such bad and difficult times. But God knows that when He puts these things all in His order, they always work for good! We just have to trust Him and, eventually, they will all make something wonderful!
God is crazy about you. He sends you flowers every spring and a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He'll listen. He can live anywhere in the universe, and He chose your heart.
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but salvation is there for you if you humble yourself before God.
Just because I have a wife doesn't mean we have it easy, this past year my wife went through 3 count them, three brain surgeries to remove tumors from her pituitary. She had her first in February then June and then finally in July. It hasn't come back then she got pregnant and we were very excited because we thought she was through, if you know anything about the pituitary, she wasn't ovulating since Nov, 2006. Needless to say it was a wonderful surprise. I know for a fact that suffering, persecutions, trials and temptations are guarantee's in the Bible. Paul was being tortured and jailed and he always had hope and peace. Because Paul, like myself, knew that this is just the temporary situation to what God has planed for us and we eagerly wait for that faithful day of Judgment. Yes the unrepentant sinner will perish. The person that just won't stop drinking and driving and running through school zones will go to jail. The unrepentant proud sinner will perish and g