Anya,

I too have slipped from sanity a bit in the past. I know how hard it was for me to let go of the god belief. You are not alone, however. That's what this site is for, to help exchristians recover. It has been a great help to me and I hope it helps you as well.

Thank you for sharing your story.

My readings on this site from last night show an interesting thing. It is that quite mojority of the disappointees of christianigy are women. It's kinda typical for them to say that:

'I was raised up in so so christianistic home and had some sort of faith but later i found that it was all shit. So from now on I will destroy it and save people from that shit although I am sad for I lost the some sorta faith.'

Isn't it interesting why it's so typical of so many enlightened women here?

Please...don't think I am despising women. I just say this becuause it seems like a fact here.

Hate to burst your misogynistic bubble Trumpeter, but men too can suffer the deepest depression cuased by the cognitive dissonance associated with TRUE religious enlightenment, ie. that religion is a farce. I know this because I have experienced it and still live it to this day. To say that it has been hard for me to let go of my christian beliefs it quite the understatement. Everyday I wake up feeling either hopelessly despised by a god that I once thought loved me, or I feel hopelessly depressed to know that I too am simply an "evolved monkey." I guess I'm just saying that for some this process of letting go can be harder than it is for others... either man or woman.

Hi Anya,
Thanks for your honest and heartfelt post. I too went through some time feeling very empty after I said goodbye to my imaginary friend.

But over the past year or two, I am feeling more and more comfortable in my new status as a highly evolved primate. I no longer feel the need to condemn others because some book or preacher tells me to. I can give more grace to my fellow primates, because I know they are stuck in the same kind of confusing life that I am.

I am more at peace with life, and with the concept of death. I can seek truth in reality, without needing to try to squeeze reality into some preconceived notion of truth as put forth out in some bronze-age book.

Bottom line is that I feel I have more love, grace, integrity and honor in my life, now that I can face reality as it truly is. And to face it with courage at that.

Even the concept that life is meaningless, expect for the meaning we bring to it, allows be to relax more and be at peace with all the crap that goes on in this world. I am even getting less uptight about the religious beliefs of others.

So hang in there. It is pretty rough for awhile as you navigate these choppy waters. The human brain can be a scary place. But trust yourself and your reason. You are obviously an intelligent person, and one that is not afraid of reality, even if it is uncomfortable.

Peace.

- Lance

P.S. I hope I did not come across as a pompous asshole in this post. I am not trying to puff myself up, as I am still nothing more than partially confused primate myself. But my goal was to give you hope.

Anony said: //Everyday I wake up feeling either hopelessly despised by a god that I once thought loved me, or I feel hopelessly depressed to know that I too am simply an "evolved monkey." I guess I'm just saying that for some this process of letting go can be harder than it is for others... either man or woman.//

I frankly share some of your feelings of depressions. What I feel when I wake up is similar to yours, I guess.

So, if possible, I do not want others to suffer the same feelings. No point to purposefully break in their confort zone and spread that undesiralbe feelings.

I hesitate to post at this time because I sense some hot and sad emotions. Please forgive me.

About this "evolved monkey" idea. The concepts of evolution do not teach that we are "monkeys". The concepts of evolution teach that we share a common ancestry with the animal world, and that includes the "monkeys".

And why we should object is quite beyond me. From our origins in the forest, we know compassion; we know gentle feelings. We also know anger; hate; we know how to strike back when our own our threatened. See those incisors in your jaws? Think about it. Did any jewgod create you with fangs?

I believe in no gods. The sun on my face is just as warm, and my lover's touch is just as sweet.

After no longer thinking that I was a beloved, holy child of an all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, destined to an eternal paradise after just a short life on a steaming dump of a planet with all of its servants of Satan... oh yes, I felt a little sad too. At times I do wish that I was back in the times that I believed, and have the fellowship of my fellow Christian teens and go to my church back in Arizona regularly again (I loved that place).
But at the same time, I remember the fear that I experienced, of losing my salvation, of growing increasingly apathetic of prayer and then fearing being damned for not having prayed enough during life so much that my knees would feel weak. And I remember how happy and relieved I felt when I realized that I had nothing to fear, that it wasn't true.

And after reading a few of Jesus's not-so-loving remarks, I find I don't much miss Him either!

” More than anything in the world, I wish I could sincerely believe in Jesus or God, but at this point in time, intellectually and logically, there is no reason to believe."

That above qoute sums up my life's philosopy to a tee. I am not an exChristian because I was never fully able to buy into it in the first place. Great post.

xrayman

Anya,

Thank you for your wonderful post. I am sorry your bubble burst, but I know you are strong and smart and you will get over it, sooner than later. We all recover--to a point at least. I am still deeply digesting my change of beliefs and of my perspective toward life.

Trumpeter said:
" My readings on this site from last night show an interesting thing. It is that quite mojority of the disappointees of christianigy are women. It's kinda typical for them to say that:"

Lorena responds:
Interesting observation, Trumpeter. When I first read that, I thought you were nuts. But then I realized that things have changed here on ex-c. When I first started coming around a couple of years ago, it was rare to find women posting. But recently, there is an avalanche of women coming, which is great. I don't feel so lonely anymore ;)

I too never believed christianity. I grew up in a stiffly controlled household and since the tender age of 6, I've always thought of it as crap. How can there be a god who allows his children to be abused mentally, emotionally, and physically by their own parents? It's just taking hold that religion is nothing more than churches trying to control congregations and bring in more money by providing the entertainment factor. Some call this felling the spirit or being slain in the spirit. All it is is the "warm Fuzzies" or endorphins being created to produce that high. All I can say is, trust your heart, not your head.

to Lorena,

Maybe it's good for the people who want to destroy christianity that, here, to this site, more and more women come. Because I guess that women has been kinda strong supporters for christianity. So maybe it's your winning game. But, I will go my way, ha ha....

To the Author-

You say you are left feeling depressed. I think I went through this stage too. You just have to remember one thing, though- the meaning of life is what you make it. Do what makes you happy, inside the letter of the law of course. Life is an amazing ocurrance, there's no need to feel depressed.

Dan, you really have problems.

I have asked you to stop spamming this site. Now please stop.

Thanks.

All of Dan Marvin's posts from here on out will be deleted.

Dear trumpeter, how very christian of you.

" to Lorena,

Maybe it's good for the people who want to destroy christianity that, here, to this site, more and more women come. Because I guess that women has been kinda strong supporters for christianity. So maybe it's your winning game. But, I will go my way, ha ha...."


Ah, what an asshole you are Trumpeter!

thank you, Lorena, for your compliment. :)

Anya, I too share many of your feelings. I wish I could follow and believe but something inward prevents this from happening. Abandoning childhood teachings and allowing reason to erradicate previous beliefs is a tough step for me. Driving past a church I revered and now ignore still pangs guilt through my heart.
This after uttering every blasphmey imaginable.
I wish you well as you seem like such a lovely person and this is all we can be. Love one another.

Anya:

Leaving a belief system behind can be painful. It can be painful because leaving Christianity is EXACTLY the same as attempting to control your alcoholism, or dumping an abusive spouse, or leaving a network of friends that are bad influences. Though it is necessary, it still hurts. And Christianity is all of the above things and more. There is nothing more vile, hateful and draining than Christianity. Christianity is the culmination of all forms of abuse brought to a head and forced down upon people to make them as miserable as the people forcing it down.

Anya, you can see the truth in this by what Christians say. Christians are nothing more than alcoholics of a sort. They are addicted to the misery of Christianity, and are afraid to deal with the pain. My father is an alcoholic; he behaves exactly as Christians do when you confront him with the fact that alcoholism is a bad thing. Like alcoholics, Christians must hit rock bottom, and hit it hard, before they even think of getting their lives in order. And when they see others breaking free (as you have begun to), they will lash out. It is the way of a coward, but this is what Christians are.

So as I said above, breaking free can be painful at first. This is natural. By coming here you have gained something valuable: a support network. We have been through what you are going through, and can offer comfort and advice and words of wisdom, where Christians (the alcoholics) will shun and spurn you for no longer wanting to suffer right along with them. But life is a beautiful thing - and Christianity and its heat stroke-induced visions have no place in that life. You are doing the right thing by acknowledging that Christianity is flawed, and that you must break free. To go along with the alcoholic theme here, it is like you have woken up after a night of binge drinking, and said, "What the hell am I doing to myself?" You have recognized that you must be free, but that it is easier said than done, Anya. But it is the right thing.

Looking at the world with clear eyes, you will see that it is even more amazing. It is incorrect to say that we are from 'monkeys,' but we'll leave that alone for another time. Think about how amazing life is to have evolved to this point, on its own, without the judgmental interference of a god that sent itself to Earth in order to sacrifice itself to itself to save us from itself. We don't need Jesus, or God, or Christianity, or religion. We need only to see the beauty in life. When you do that, you have no need of religion. There is NOTHING that religion can provide you with. NOTHING. But your freedom and integrity can give you EVERYTHING.

Many exians here, I've heared say how they wish that xianity were true and it's obviously something that I, as someone who's never been an xian could not understand. I have to say that I could never hope a religion to be true, that tells me the default destiny of all humans is to be tortured forever in a lake of fire, conveniently placed in some unverifiable afterlife. I have to say though, that even though the notion that, all the fantastic complexity and variatey of life on earth as well as all the billions of galaxies in a vast universe was created by an ancient middle eastern war god who orders the death penalty for people who pick up sticks on Saturday, to be, shall we say, somewhat unlikely, I still find myself, I have to admit, being a bit afraid of it and I have pondered why. After all, I was brought up by athiest parents and live in the UK where it's OK to be athiest. What comes up is that throughout my life, particularly childhood, there has been a kind of subliminal hegenomy; I went to a secular state school but there were hymns and prayers to the xian god every morning in assembly, and, in the 60s, the only religion on offer in RE lessons was xian. And then there's the celebration of christmas and easter, which although largely nonreligious would still be part of that 'subliminal hegenomy', perhaps in a particularly potent way for a child - associating an exciting time with a, even if only a subliminally, xian background.
Why do I say subliminal? It's because as a child I didn't consider any of it to be having any effect on me; I espoused my parents atheism naturally. So, I think religion is insidious, and while we have it, it's important to have its apostates; people like you here at exian.net. I think of you as intrepid explorers who have gone out into the darkness of religion and returned able to say "It's OK, it's all bullshit."
Boe

"The decision to live in reality has not been an easy or happy one."

Am still struggling with the faith, I feel the same way.

Some nights I sit on my bed and cry over it.

Having some medical issues I am choosing to keep hope alive that there is a God who will help me.

The hope that there is a God is a crutch. Belief and faith are childlike knee-jerk reactions to the difficulties of life and the deep poison that is religion. Religion is a drug, faith is a disease, and God is, for all intents and purposes, an imaginary terrorist. It is for this reason that those leaving the faith cling to God so, and for this reason that people facing difficulties often revert and cling to the idea of a God, even when there is absolutely no evidence for that God.

I know many atheists find it hard to believe that someone could hope there is a God, and truly, ti is not so much the hope that there is a God as it is a relapsing. Christians are addicted to their religion, and are experiencing a sort of Stockholm syndrome in its grasp. It is easy to relapse when this is the case. I think many of us here at ex-Christian have done it. I'm guilty of relapsing in the past, when things got too difficult. In the end, prayer and belief will do NOTHING, because there is no God. And before the 'trumpeters' claim that we must be patient, that God's will will be done, I have to ask: if God is going to do whatever the fuck it wants, why are we ASKING it for anything to start with? Christians want to see others beg and be miserable like them, and that is the end of it.

And this is not a bad thing. It is just something we have to come to realize and accept. Prayer has NEVER been answered, and never will be answered. I don't think that anybody prays in order to seek connection to a God, because knowing that there is no God, people will pray in the hopes that there is something there that will answer; in this way, prayer is ALWAYS asking, and asking in prayer will always be denied. Not actively, but nonetheless prayer and belief will always result in an empty void. This is why people seek out other people and call the resulting kindness of people God. Because God will never answer, because there is no God, it is easier to project one's hopes onto other real people and make up excuses than deal with the simple fact that there is no verifiable God out there.

The best thing we can do is take respnsibility for our actions and see the beauty in life without God.

No offence, but I've never understood the hope for christianity to be true. Sure you get a God looking after you but at such a high price. The vast majority of humanity spending all eternity in hell including any unbelieving loved ones. One would think anyone but the most selfish and criminal minded would hope to God (parden the pun) that christianity isn't true.

To Trancelation:
I come to this site to seek support and 'felloeship' with others that are going through what I'm experiencing as an extian. You're comments and advise to Anya have also helped ME alot. I'm a recovering alcoholic/christian. Your analogy of how booze and jesus require the same honest confrontation is dead on correct! It took me years of hopping back and forth from one to the other to realize that the dependence of both 'drugs' was the same thing. When I removed the symptoms of liquor and faith from my life, I finally started to deal with life on lifes' terms. REALITY RULES !! Hang in there y'all!!!

trancelation wrote:
"Belief and faith are childlike knee-jerk reactions to the difficulties of life and the deep poison that is religion. Religion is a drug, faith is a disease, and God is, for all intents and purposes, an imaginary terrorist"
--
Hey Trancelation,

There is a whole LOT of wisdom in those words you wrote !!

I think we should make up some flying-xtian-fish with your words on them, and air-drop them over fundie churches.

There is no doubt that religion is addictive.
What an irony that many churches hold AA meetings for another form of addiction; alcohol, but fail to see their own god addiction problem.


ATF ( Who thinks if they could put the god-addiction drug into a huge hypodermic needle, xtians would still find excuses to 'shoot-up' another dose of god into their veins)

I find more peace in the fact that Christianity isn't true. The fact that it isn't true means that world isn't destined for a firey hell but will only get better as it evolves.

That alone gives me hope that anything is possible and our lives are not limited by the confines of the bible.

Anny Boe Said,

"it's important to have its apostates; people like you here at exian.net. I think of you as intrepid explorers who have gone out into the darkness of religion and returned able to say "It's OK, it's all bullshit."

What a powerful statement that certainly applies to me as one who never really believed. My God belief was never beyond tepid at best. If no one had ever come back from hard core indoctrination to tell about it, I would never be comfortable with my atheist stance.

As I stated earlier I wished Xtianity were true, what an interesting take on that statement a couple of you pointed out. I never thought of the fact that if it were true the vast majority of mankind would be roasting in hell. What a solid point. I have changed my stance.

xrayman

I NEVER wanted christianity to be true - not even when I tried, half-heartedly, to believe in some form of it. Now, a loving god that actually helps people? That's a whole 'nother story (and not one you'll find anywhere in the bible).

But, there's no evidence - and, therefore, no reason to "believe" in this type of god, either. So, I just keep on keeping on, doing the best I can, and trying to make the most of whatever limited time I have here. And that is quite enough.

To Anya: I see that you aren't happy with the knowledge that Christianity is false. I guess I can't blame you. After all, who wouldn't want to experience heaven? But as for me, I've never felt regret. Yeah, sadly, there is no heaven, but we exist, and even after we're gone, we will always be a part of history. Maybe not written history (none of which will survive for a billion years into the future), but the unwritten, complete history of the universe (space-time contortions and all).

Also, although I won't be going to heaven, I am at least assured of resting in peace. If Christianity were real, and you did use logic to disprove it, then you would spend an eternity tortured in the fires of hell, not in heaven. As would the rest of us. And the billions of other people on the earth who either aren't Christians. Or maybe God just loves either Catholics or Protestants. Or maybe just Baptists. Who knows. But whatever it is, the vast majority of the world's population would be swimming in a lake of fire. And that then gets back to your wish that Christianity were real. If we and billions of others were actually punished in such a way, then would this god even be worth worshipping? Would it truly be better if Christianity were real?

As for your dislike of being an "evolved monkey", I think it's sad that our culture has made us hate animals so much. Have you ever had a dog? Sure, they can be a pain sometimes, but they can also love you unconditionally. They want food, but besides that, they just want you to notice them, and to be with them. They also don't believe in fairy tales. They only know what they can perceive. If only humans could be like them. But no, to us humans, all animals are brutish beings with no feelings. A sad example of our super-evolved superiority complex.

To Trumpeter: It's great that you know everything about this site from your "readings...from last night". Oh yeah, and I'm a man and I guess I "want to destroy Christianity", too. I mean, just last night, I managed to burn down three churches! *high five!* It's too bad that everyone who requires real, hard evidence before believing in something is your enemy. And wow, you are obsessed with the distinction between men and women, with some deep seated anger towards women (the more "emotional" and "less rational" humans - surprisingly actually turning their back on your superstition and using logic and rationality! Imagine that!) Are you sure you're not a Muslim? You'd make a good one!

-Ricky

Well done webmaster. Just delete everything that doesn't appeal to you. How very democratic of you.

If you argue that this site isn't run democratically, I'll concede. But your behavior certainly reveals you as a very obstinate and closed minded person.

You must have wonderful discussions, with your mirror.

It's no wonder you've never heard the word of God, you've been too busy listening to your own voice.

If the spirits that own your mind ever give you a moments rest, try listening to God during that silence. Despite everything you've done, He's still calling out to you today. He will do so until your last day. While you're still alive His mercy is still an option for you, and for everyone!

Peace.

Hi Ricky,

you said: "It's too bad that everyone who requires real, hard evidence before believing in something is your enemy"

I don't know why you say that. Those are rather my friends. You may have good imagnination or is it illusion or paranoia?

Anyway do you have any hard evidence not to believe in and destroy christianity? ha ha...

ATF and Anonymous before ATF:

You see?

Passerby said:

"Well done webmaster. Just delete everything that doesn't appeal to you. How very democratic of you.

If you argue that this site isn't run democratically, I'll concede. But your behavior certainly reveals you as a very obstinate and closed minded person.

You must have wonderful discussions, with your mirror.

It's no wonder you've never heard the word of God, you've been too busy listening to your own voice.

If the spirits that own your mind ever give you a moments rest, try listening to God during that silence. Despite everything you've done, He's still calling out to you today. He will do so until your last day. While you're still alive His mercy is still an option for you, and for everyone!"

trumpeter said:

"I don't know why you say that. Those are rather my friends. You may have good imagnination or is it illusion or paranoia?

Anyway do you have any hard evidence not to believe in and destroy christianity? ha ha..."

Religion is a mental illness.

Some ex-Christians like to argue theology and history, attacking the problems with the Bible. I, too, can do this as well as anyone. I've read several books on the subject, and while indeed there are hypocricies, innacuracies and contradictions on literally every single page of the Bible, pointing out these problems to Christians is like pointing out why alcohol is bad for you to alcoholics. They are too addicted to see the flaws with what they are addicted to, and how it does not actually solve their problems.

People suffering from mental illness are also incapable of understanding CONTEXT. This is why, when you have discussions or arguments with the mentally ill (in this case Christians), it is so frustrating. Their brains have been dewired for understanding a discussion in its actual context. Reading the above responses from trumpeter and passerby, we can easily see that they have NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. Their words they type or speak or think will always revolve around allowing the disease that has claimed them to exist. They are afraid of facing it; they are afraid of freedom and happiness. So instead of acknowledging points made time and again, this will always be the end result. No matter how cogent your point or argument, the Christians will alwayd regress to that knee-jerk childlike state where their minds shut down and succumb to the call of their addiction. Some people call this faith, and admire it. I call it what it is: a disease. A sickness. A psychological, emotional imbalance in the brain of a victim. Faith as a mental disorder adheres to every quality of a mental disorder outlined in the DSM IV.

I personally feel that the only way to deal with Christianity is to treat it as the mental disorder that it really is. This cuts right to the heart of the problem; it does not give Christians an easy way out. Of course they will try to twist words and turn the argument around in their favor, but in the face of direct accusations about their illness they ALWAYS crumble. If everyone dealt with the religiously ill by confronting them about their illness, rather than engaging them in pointless philosophical digressions, the confrontation would always be a short one and would end with the religiously ill person seeking a new target to sate their drug. Faced with rock bottom (no one to torture emotionally with their psychological imbalance), Christians are faced with two possibilities: death or change. Only the most desperate person chooses death.

I've made the point before that I have had mentally ill people in my life; I've had a friend suffering from NPD, and my father is an alcoholic. Christians posses the same qualities as these two kinds of people. Not always in the same degrees, but they are always present. As such, I feel that we as ex-Christians should confront Christians about their illness and demand they recieve treatment for it. Perhaps one day in the hopeful future people will have interventions for the mental illness that is faith in the same way they do for drugs and alcohol.

impressive, trancelation, it's an impressive party of groundless accusations.

trancelation said:
//Religion is a mental illness. ...
Faith as a mental disorder adheres to every quality of a mental disorder outlined in the DSM IV.//

Hei, trancelation, I think that mentally normal person does not say strong statements like what you did here without proper evidences to support it.

You said about DSM IV. I ask you to prove that you are mentally ok by submitting the "every quality of a mental disorder outlined in the DSM IV" of faith.

I would like to see who is mentally ill. ha ha...

I think religion, particularly the variety that causes one to "hear" voices that aren't there, would qualify as a delusional disorder with periodic episodes of schizophrenia.

And 'hei' to you too, Trumpeter. Are you from Norway? Iceland?

thank you for your hei, Astreja.

let me keep it, for a while, as secret where i am from. For a few secrets are the perfume of attraction... ha ha...

Passerby,

Can you envision any type of circumstance or information that would convince you that Christianity is false?

If your answer is no, then it is you that is closed minded. Remember, I was a dogmatic, dedicated, witnessing, tithing, daily praying at 4 a.m., homeschooling, home group leading, music ministering, prison ministering, tongue talking, Christian for 30 years.

Then one day I stopped closing my mind and looked outside my little Christian box.

Here's the documentation you might be seeking, Trumpeter: Religion is a mental illness.

Ha ha!

Trancelation wrote: "I personally feel that the only way to deal with Christianity is to treat it as the mental disorder that it really is."

A better way to word it, is that humans have a mental disorder, they are sick, with sin. So indeed, Mr. Trancelation, you are correct, I am sick. I am all too often selfish, arrogant, condescending, impatient, dishonest, impure in thought & action, filled with unjustified anger or hatred, etc.... But, despite my deplorable state, I have Hope, Faith & Love in the gift of redemption offered me through Jesus Christ. Through this gift, I have been blessed with much peace and joy, despite the trials and temptations that sourround us all in this world. My journey, is to walk with Christ and to grow more and more into Him throughout the days of my life.

So I ask you, Mr. Trancelation, are you really so healthy? You are free to spend the rest of your life among those that deny their condition, or join those that acknowledge God's word. It is never too late to join those that endeavor for sincerity of heart before God and hope in His graces for healing.

Please don't waste your time trying to diagnose of everyone else. I hope that you take some time to evaluate your spiritual state and maybe, just maybe, God's spirit will see your efforts and bless you with the gift of hope and faith in His salvation!

We are indeed powerless in our own salvation as it is an unmerited gift from God. None of us are truly good, none. Salavation comes from a good God, not a good man.

Peace.

Christians will often try to turn words around to suit them in their favor, much in the same way that alcohlics, drug addicts and other mentally ill people do. A perfect example of this is how passerby tries to wrestle with my words in order to make them suit the cause of furthering his addiction to religion. Observe:

passerby said:

"A better way to word it, is that humans have a mental disorder, they are sick, with sin. So indeed, Mr. Trancelation, you are correct, I am sick. I am all too often selfish, arrogant, condescending, impatient, dishonest, impure in thought & action, filled with unjustified anger or hatred, etc.... But, despite my deplorable state, I have Hope, Faith & Love in the gift of redemption offered me through Jesus Christ. Through this gift, I have been blessed with much peace and joy, despite the trials and temptations that sourround us all in this world. My journey, is to walk with Christ and to grow more and more into Him throughout the days of my life."

Many of us have had to deal with alcoholics, and they are fond of using statements such as this:

You: But alcohol is bad for you. It makes you drunk, and you do stupid things.

Alcoholic: Yeah, well, EVERYBODY does stupid things. At least I'm honest about it. What about you? Look at you, judging me. So YOU never do anything stupid? At least I get away from it from time to time by tossing back a few. Alcohol helps me deal with my problems. Man, I'm glad I don't have problems like YOU.

See a pattern here, people? Of course you do. The mentally ill will use grandiose emotional assesments of a situation or a person for the sake of furthering their disease. Another poster said that we have to respond to sound bytes with logics; it's no wonder we're fighting an uphill battle. That's exactly what's going on here. Lacking logic, passerby has to resort to appeals to emotion , as alcoholics and drug addicts will do. In an attempt to not have to face his mental disorder, passerby attempts to turn the discussion around and make it about me. Anyone that has ever had an intervention with an alcoholic knows what this is like, and knows that it is to be expected. I was expecting nothing less from passerby and trumpeter and other Christians. I'm not going to engage these people on their terms, by arguing with their words. Passerby and trumpeter and other Christians are suffering from a plethora of mental illnesses.

trumpeter wants me to show that I am mentally stable by showing that HE is mentally UNstable.

If this is not a clear indication of not being able to grasp context, I don't know what is.

I'm not going to engage Christians like passerby or trumpeter directly in their drawn-out semi-philosphical digressions. This is too much like telling an alcoholic that alcohol is bad for them. They will only make excuses and try to find flaws in YOU.

But for the sake of furthering my argument that religious belief is a mental disorder, here are some resources for those that are interested:

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/RB6M702YMWXZX6T9

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/fundamentalists/articles/manic-depression.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/soury.htm

http://www.nimbus.org/Writings/Academic/Counseling-Psych/ReligiousAddiction.html

Unfortunately, there are not as many resources on this as I would like. One frightening thing I found through this search was that there are many Christians that do not think there is such a thing as mental disorders. Yet another way to manipulate and control the mentally ill that are the religious of this world.

Passerby is a closed minded brainwashed person. It will take him awhile to see the truth, if ever.

I always love how religious people and Jesus followers talk about listening to God. When I did that, as a Christian, it always amounted to me indulging in my own feelings. Very narcissistic.

"Anyway do you have any hard evidence not to believe in and destroy christianity?"

I have some evidence for not believing, yes.

According to the Christian God, the universe has been around for roughly 6,000 years. It doesn't take a geology degree to see numerous amounts of evidence to prove this isn't true. So, either God isn't to be believed because he doesn't exist, OR God isn't to be believed because he lies. And if he lies, well, I'm sure you can see the problem with that.

Trancelation said, " One frightening thing I found through this search was that there are many Christians that do not think there is such a thing as mental disorders. "

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Mental disorders are caused by the Devil, or demons, or some spiritual lack, etc. Physical ailments may or may not be spiritual, but mental is nearly always considered spiritual.

Therefore, those with real mental issues are discouraged from seeking real help.

The heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, and so forth are all considered organs -- organs that could have something go wrong. But the brain? No, no, no! The brain is somehow exempt from having something wrong with it in Christian thought. The brain isn't really an organ, I guess.

dear webmaster,
I admire your tenacity and devotion in searching for truths on world, religion, and life. When I say religion it is not only christianity- also buddhism.

And i share some of the frustration you might have encountered during that search. I am maybe not far different type of person from yours.

But, what i want to say now is some technical thing. I read some responses in "recent commnets" section but I don't see them here. Hopefully not a crooked minded person hacked this site. If it is normal process, my apology to you for my short patience. thanks...

ok that's good you guys found some hard evidences on christians' mental illness. I have read some of those.

But, on earth, how many christians, do you think, are? and how many have that kind of illnesses. Do you think it's proportionate? oh, no, no. ha ha...

trumpeter: "When I say religion it is not only christianity- also buddhism."

Oops maybe I spoke too soon. Trumpeter are you a Christian? Were you born again?

None of us are truly good, none.

Ah yes, Worm Theology. How could I forget those days. Nothing truly warms the cockles of the heart like a nice hefty dose of self-loathing.

hei, damn arvin

sometimes, you seem like the leatherface who wields the chainsaw. Maybe even worse because you don't know who is on your side.

ok, let me ask you how many times have you been born again? one time? two times? three times? ha ha....

(xrayman, other Bill)

Hey Trancelation,

As a recovering drunk I take a mild offense to the statement you made compairing alcoholism to religion. When I was a hard core drunk, I had no illusions that I didn't have a problem. I knew it plain and simple but I didn't want to change until I was ready where as the hard core religious person is truly deluded.

What part of ExChristian don't those two Bozos above understand. It just kills me when someone stops by and acts as if none of us has heard of Jesus. This isn't called, "Been living in a Cave Never Heard of God Dot Com."

Hey, Dan,

Don't be too much offended for i changed your nick name. you just seemed, to me, like damning a lot of people who are different from you. But no personal offense intended.

trumpeter, you still haven't answered the question.

You said born again? one time? two times? three times? ha ha....

Dude, being 'born again' DOES NOT mean over and over again. So how many times did you come out of your mom's womb?

ok Dan,

What is "born again?" Tell me your noble opinion.

I guess that answers it then, you are not.

John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Dan:"trumpeter, you still haven't answered the question."

Who are you to demand an answer to any question, ye who answers not?

So, tell me Dan, why do you believe those wicked liars? Hmmm?

Also:

Dan Marvin VS. Trumpeter.

I'll pop some corn, this should be interesting, if not for it being on the ex-christian site.

Both of you go away and come back when you "christians" agree on everything.

MMkay.

OOPS I just don't answer your questions because you are so disrespectful in your questioning. I have answered all sorts of questions everywhere but just because you don't get a response from me doesn't mean I do that to everyone.

Is that how you treated God also? No wonder you don't believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

I'm a born again Atheist... well, at least I found my way home :-) Hope you find your way back to your atheism as well Dan - you know, you weren't born baptized and accepting God/Jesus ;-)

Dan,

You really like damning others, huh?

I am asking how you know you are "born again" and others not?

Tell me, you pompous holyistic guy. What are the evidences that show you are "born again."

Dan said: //OOPS I just don't answer your questions because you are so disrespectful in your questioning.//

Sorry if you felt like that. I just asked your opinion on your "born again." Why is it disrespectful? So, when you ask me, it's respectful, but when i ask you, is it disrespectful? So, when you ask others if they are "born again," that's remarkably respectful, huh?

ok I am asking you again. Sir, Mr. Dan, Your Majesty, What is your noble opinion on your "born again?" and what are the evidences that show you were "born again?"

So now am i respectful enough?

Dan, Your Magesty, you need to know whether you are helping others into ex-c or not with your wonderful talent of sickening others.

With respect

Please everyone. No one has the right to damn anyone; God is judge, not man.

Matthew 7:1-2 will reflect this truth.
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you."

On this point, I’d just like to clarify that this does not mean that we don’t have the right or the ability to recognize sin. What matters most is that we focus our attention on improving ourselves; always striving to be more pleasing to God. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 7:3
"Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"

I think that all true Christians are endeavoring to please God in this way and that they all need to be very mindful of other temptations that abound during this journey. Just when you see yourself having apparent victory over one sin (say of lust), pride is very likely a new temptation. There is no cure that comes from man for our state, the cure is God Himself. Prayer, charity, sacrifice are pleasing to God in our journey to holiness. There’s no other way to holiness except through God’s grace, don’t try to do it on your own, you’ll fail. Humbly ask Him for help…and watch our wonderful righteous Teacher come to your aid!

As far as knowing whether or not you’re born again?

How about asking yourself if you love God, as He revealed Himself in Jesus? Do you love Jesus? Do you want to be just like Him? Do you hope in Him for guidance in all trials and temptations of your life? If you answered yes to all of these questions, you must be born again. No one really loves God unless they are born of His Spirit.

I recall a time, many years in fact, where Jesus was nothing but a historical figure to me. I had no real love for Him. I was born again when I realized that everything He said in the gospels was about me. Despite having “heard” hundreds of sermons during my upbringing, I heard nothing. Not once did anything that was said make sense to me, until God blessed me with the ability to hear His voice.

My greatest fear would be to fall asleep again. For this reason, I aim to stay close to Him. Like Dan, I’ve been blessed with children and what a wonderful blessing it has been to have been converted before I became a father a few years ago!

Congratulations on your new child Dan! May God bless all of our children with spiritual health in the midst of the world’s apostasy.

Peace.

trumpeter "I am asking how you know you are "born again" and others not?

Matthew 7:15-21

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

trumpeter: Dan said: //OOPS I just don't answer your questions because you are so disrespectful in your questioning.//

Sorry if you felt like that. I just asked your opinion on your "born again."

Dude, with all do respect all those words were for stronger now. I should have been clear on that, I apologize.

As for my original question that you still haven't answered. Are you born again?

At this point any True Christian would be very happy to tell their story or to share the Gospel.

1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

Peace

*I will touch on Passerby's comment separately

Hey Dan,

Which translation of the English Bible is the most correct version?

Good question'

As far as the different translations, there is a sliding scale so I take all of them into account and not trust any 'one' thing that man has done. I stay close to literal and conservative as possible. The translations start from very conservative and literal translations like Young's Literal, Darby then to KJV then on up to the top of the more modern and liberal translations like NLT, NASB, and the most liberal New Jerusalem Bible (NJB).

Passerby,

Thanks for those kind words Passerby and all the same to you and your blessed children.

I agree 100% with we are to glorify God in everything we do. How can we truly glorify God. Are we not to judge the lost? Are we to coddle evil?

Passerby you brought up good verses (Matthew 7:1-2) but in good hermeneutics we must take it in context. I believe the author is addressing Christians judging other Christians to bicker over small things. Like Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

We Judge not according to the appearance, but we judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

Like I said this ealier: Remember what it says in Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"

But what does this truly mean. Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we coddle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell.

The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

We are to judge false teachings. Understand that there is such a thing as absolute truth. The Bible tells us that there's only one God in all existence, that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, that we are justified by grace through faith, that Jesus died on the cross, that he rose from the dead physically, etc. These are the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. If there were a religion that contradicted these essentials, then that religion would not be true because Jesus gave us the truth and anyone who contradicts what Jesus said, is not true. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days they would be many false Christ's and false prophets who would arise and deceive many. If it did not matter about different religious systems, then why did Jesus warn us about just that?

We cannot say which groups that this individual was thinking of, but let's take the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses as examples. Both the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses state that they believe in God, the Bible, Jesus, and his sacrifice. Yet, I state that these two groups are not Christian. Why is that? This is because the Mormons teach that God used to be a man on another planet, that he has a goddess wife, that they both have bodies of flesh and bones, and that forgiveness of sins is not by grace through faith alone, but by grace plus obedience to the laws of God. Mormons are also polytheist, where the Bible teaches monotheist. This violates basic Christian teaching.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh and they also deny his physical resurrection. Since of the deity of Christ and his physical resurrection are essential doctrines of the Christian faith, the Jehovah's Witnesses are denying those essentials and are therefore not Christians.

We see that the more we know what the truth of God's Word is, the more we realize that there are counterfeit groups who seek to appear Christian and teach unchristian things. This is why it is necessary for Christians to judge and expose those false groups.(help from carm.org)

Dan,

If your baby ask you that "are you really a man?," what would be your feeling about the baby?

Just think that's maybe very similar to what i am feeling about you.

Dan, you go your way without turning back until you grow out of the baby. And don't cry any more for me not to care about your profound questions.

You are so wonderfully talented to sicken me off. Be proud of yourself.. for i guess few on earth share your precious talents. ha ha....

just a more kindness for Dan.

you please understand the baby's question of "are you really a man?" as "are you really a human?"

it's not "are you really a male?" Clear? good.

with respect.

Dan said: "he only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

So this passage is to be taken literally and obeyed by Christians, apparently. However, the fourth of the Ten Commandments is to be spiritualized right out of existence.

Danny boy, I thought you'd washed your hands of us! That didn't last long, did it?

Dan, you're a hoot.

Dan,

Yes, indeed I agree with you on everything you said. The part that does not sit well is that you could make an objective conclusion about the salvific state of any one person. You see, only God can see a person’s life in its entirety and judge with perfect objectivity. It’s true that He said many clear statements about those that follow Him. That we must eat His flesh and blood, that we must believe in Him, etc… but He also said many things about judgment. Did He allow everyone to condemn the adulteress? No, because they are all sinners. I find that Jesus is always looking for us to look inside ourselves. Repentance is not a one time event; it is a continual event throughout life. Once I learned that the bible was talking about me as a sinner, by God’s grace a deep repentance followed. A repentance of venial sins (and I hope never grave sin) will continue throughout the days of my life.

You posed the questions: “Are we not to judge the lost? Are we to coddle evil?”

I absolutely agree that we are to judge behavior, beliefs, false teachings, etc… but that it is always done by presenting people with God’s word. Never by stating that they are lost, which is much too lofty a statement for any man to make, in my opinion. I know that I hope and have faith in Jesus’ work on Calvary but I never will state conclusively that I am saved while another man is not. The problem with stating anything so conclusive about anyone’s salvation is that it’s in no longer evangelizing with love. We can know in our hearts that a person’s behavior is very offensive to God, we can share with this person that we are worried about their spiritual state. We can even say that we worry that they are no longer in a state of grace, but we cannot make that conclusive statement “You are going to Hell.”.

Blessings to all and yes, to all those