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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
Sent in by Scott
I grew up as a Catholic, believing in God. Eventually my faith wandered and I had many questions. I became a Methodist and was raising a family. I still believed in a God that would help explain the mystery of the cosmos, but Christianity was becoming increasingly absurd to me.
Nine months ago, my ten-year-old son Connor died of a heart attack related to leukemia. Needless to say, we were devastated. I'm lost and broken; my whole world was shattered. There is nothing more tortuous than losing your child. It's not like you've heard it described -- "a big hole in your heart" -- it's your whole soul, your very existence being ripped in infinite directions, and so much worse. I've been robbed and violated and there is absolutely nothing I, or anyone else, can do to fix it -- I'm helpless and it is hopeless.
There is nothing like having your young son die, that pulls the rug from under you.
Everything I ever believed or thought I believed went with Connor; I have been disenchanted. My son represents every young child who has ever died. How is there a meaning to life, if children can die? What meaning can we give to life, if young children can suffer then die?
A personal God went out the door. In fact if there is a personal God, I hold him in contempt! As a parent I am completely responsible for my children. I must feed them, clothe them, protect them from harm, shield them from disease, put up with their stubbornness and rebellion, and under no circumstance wantonly harm them physically or mentally, But this supposedly loving and merciful God lets his earthly children suffer -- like the ways mentioned above -- every second of every day. If HE created the universe, HE did a piss poor job by letting my son's own blood poison my son to death.
I've heard all the platitudes. "He was God's gift." Yeah, well, when I give a gift, I don't ask for it back! Or, "It's part of God's perfect plan." OK, what's HIS plan? Oh, you don't know -- then how do you know it's perfect? Or, "You'll see him in heaven." What does heaven look like? Where is heaven? How do you get there? Or the greatest platitude, "God is testing you." Are you kidding me with this one? All I want to do is punch their teeth down their throats. How come God tests me with the loss of my precious, ten-year-old son while you are boo-hooin' because God tests you with the death of your ninety-year-old grandfather, or because you are on your second divorce?
If there is a God, he is apathetic. And like an idiot, I went to the Bible for comfort, only to find the most vile atrocities committed by God. This is what we base a religion on? This is the God of love and mercy?
I also have a evangelical Christian friend who decided to walk with me once or twice a week, because he said, "I want to help and I love you, man." A couple of weeks into our walk we were discussing Abraham and Issac of the Bible and I asked him, "If God asked you to kill your son, would you do it?" "Yes," was his answer. I then asked him how he would do it? He thought a little longer and I had to prod him. "Would you choke him to death? Would you shoot him? Would you beat him to death?" His answer was, "I would probably slit his throat."
(SLIT - HIS - THROAT)
I was dumbfounded. This is where his blind faith has taken him, and you have to remember that he was telling this to me, a father who's child had just died. Needless to say, he is not my friend anymore, and never will be again.
For more on this idea, check out this story: Religiosity Common Among Mothers Who Kill Children
Now I live in misery, my own personal hell, from which there is no escape.
I used to think raising kids was like climbing Mount Everest -- the hardest but the most rewarding experience a person could have, but sadly that experience has crumbled. With the death of Connor I will be buried under that mountain until I die.
Where are you, God? Where is my hope!!??
-- Scott
I grew up as a Catholic, believing in God. Eventually my faith wandered and I had many questions. I became a Methodist and was raising a family. I still believed in a God that would help explain the mystery of the cosmos, but Christianity was becoming increasingly absurd to me.
Nine months ago, my ten-year-old son Connor died of a heart attack related to leukemia. Needless to say, we were devastated. I'm lost and broken; my whole world was shattered. There is nothing more tortuous than losing your child. It's not like you've heard it described -- "a big hole in your heart" -- it's your whole soul, your very existence being ripped in infinite directions, and so much worse. I've been robbed and violated and there is absolutely nothing I, or anyone else, can do to fix it -- I'm helpless and it is hopeless.
There is nothing like having your young son die, that pulls the rug from under you.
Everything I ever believed or thought I believed went with Connor; I have been disenchanted. My son represents every young child who has ever died. How is there a meaning to life, if children can die? What meaning can we give to life, if young children can suffer then die?
A personal God went out the door. In fact if there is a personal God, I hold him in contempt! As a parent I am completely responsible for my children. I must feed them, clothe them, protect them from harm, shield them from disease, put up with their stubbornness and rebellion, and under no circumstance wantonly harm them physically or mentally, But this supposedly loving and merciful God lets his earthly children suffer -- like the ways mentioned above -- every second of every day. If HE created the universe, HE did a piss poor job by letting my son's own blood poison my son to death.
I've heard all the platitudes. "He was God's gift." Yeah, well, when I give a gift, I don't ask for it back! Or, "It's part of God's perfect plan." OK, what's HIS plan? Oh, you don't know -- then how do you know it's perfect? Or, "You'll see him in heaven." What does heaven look like? Where is heaven? How do you get there? Or the greatest platitude, "God is testing you." Are you kidding me with this one? All I want to do is punch their teeth down their throats. How come God tests me with the loss of my precious, ten-year-old son while you are boo-hooin' because God tests you with the death of your ninety-year-old grandfather, or because you are on your second divorce?
If there is a God, he is apathetic. And like an idiot, I went to the Bible for comfort, only to find the most vile atrocities committed by God. This is what we base a religion on? This is the God of love and mercy?
I also have a evangelical Christian friend who decided to walk with me once or twice a week, because he said, "I want to help and I love you, man." A couple of weeks into our walk we were discussing Abraham and Issac of the Bible and I asked him, "If God asked you to kill your son, would you do it?" "Yes," was his answer. I then asked him how he would do it? He thought a little longer and I had to prod him. "Would you choke him to death? Would you shoot him? Would you beat him to death?" His answer was, "I would probably slit his throat."
(SLIT - HIS - THROAT)
I was dumbfounded. This is where his blind faith has taken him, and you have to remember that he was telling this to me, a father who's child had just died. Needless to say, he is not my friend anymore, and never will be again.
For more on this idea, check out this story: Religiosity Common Among Mothers Who Kill Children
Now I live in misery, my own personal hell, from which there is no escape.
I used to think raising kids was like climbing Mount Everest -- the hardest but the most rewarding experience a person could have, but sadly that experience has crumbled. With the death of Connor I will be buried under that mountain until I die.
Where are you, God? Where is my hope!!??
-- Scott
I am so sorry to hear of your great loss. No words could ever replace the pain. If I could I would give my life for him. There is nothing more tragic then a child being ignored by god.
A very sad and horrible event for sure.
I have had close friends, neighbors and family pass away - it is never easy, and yes I have heard all the comments that you have stated. To tell you the truth - IT IS TOUGH whether you are a Christian or not. We are all humans and any loss is difficult, especially if it is dear to you. I don't have the so-called perfect explanation and by no means want to insult you're intelligence, however, no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you. I don't preach but my simple faith and the love for others has gone a long way. I truly wish you the best and hope you are well. Rob
I wish you all the strength you need to get through this.
-Leonard
If we're all God's children, then I hope he loses custody. He's doing a Hell of a bad job.
One little thing that is helpful to an atheist like me after losing someone precious is that space is not 3-dimensional, but rather 4-or-more-dimensional, with time included. This means that although your son is gone at this particular time in history, his presence is forever. Each person takes up a tiny 3-dimensional space in the universe, and also takes up a piece of time. We can't go back in time, but we can know that the good times our loved ones had in life are not erased. They did happen in time, and that can't be changed. And not only that, but your son changed the universe, even if in a relatively small way, and these small changes (even down to a photon bouncing off his body) will impact the future of the universe for an infinite number of years.
Well, that's how I see it, anyhow. I'm sorry for your tremendous loss.
You are actually living my worst nightmare – the death of a child, and a young child at that (I have 5 kids myself, all grown - save one).
Your Christian friend is one of the scariest people I’ve ever heard of. You did the right thing by staying away from him. You are correct about the evil nature of the “god” revealed in the Bible. I am nearly certain that this “god” doesn’t exist, so being angry at this deity just upsets you. Writing down your feelings and sharing them with others, as you have done here, may help you - at least, I hope it does.
You must find some (non-destructive) way to survive this. Some people process grief best by themselves. Others gravitate toward “groups” and find solace in a community of folks with kindred experiences. I don’t know which type you are, if either. If you think you might not mind the company, why don’t you try Googling a topic like “Grief Counseling” to see what is available where you live? A non-Christian service might be best as it should minimize the chances of you hearing the same old “excuses for god” that you have already endured.
My heart goes out to you in this horrible and unbelievably difficult time. If you need someone to email and just vent from time to time, my address is jfraysse@aol.com. I promise to listen.
John Fraysse
One thing I can tell you is that I understand your feelings with regard to god because I think I feel exactly the same way. I haven’t suffered any tragedy as devastating as yours but I am going through a health problem that reminds me every day of the absence of all-loving, all-powerful deity.
I was an accomplished athlete in college, and I have the championship women’s soccer trophies to show for it. I was also quite active for the next 20 years. But then, in my mid-40s, I got multiple sclerosis and I am now crippled by it.
I don’t really believe in god any more, but I had what I think is a significant dream about him about a year ago. It came during a night of fitful sleep when I kept awakening in pain so severe I was reduced to bawling. When I finally did fall back asleep, I dreamt I was in the desert running in pursuit of god – a giant man dressed in a typical Arab garb. I kept shouting at him to stop, to please let me talk to him, but he kept running, his back to me all the time.
I finally caught up with him, grabbed on to the back of his robe and begged him to please stop the pain. Then I heard him laugh, cruelly and with a sort of hollow echo. At that point we started tussling and ended up wrestling on the ground and for the first time I saw his face – a metal, robot’s face with dark empty holes instead of eyes. And then, somehow (sorry, I’m kind of fuzzy on this part – you know how dreams are) I managed to pull his metal head off and break his metal body into scraps that I left all over the surrounding desert floor. That is all I remember from that dream.
Well, the next morning, I woke up feeling refreshed and better than I had felt in a long time. No, I didn’t have a miraculous healing. I’m still crippled with MS and it’s still painful sometimes (though I haven’t had a bout of leg and back spasms as severe as that night since then). But, I think I found some comfort in my dreaming mind reminding me that god is really nothing but an imaginary character that people internalize in their own minds; true, he’s not going to do anything to help me, but he can’t hurt me, either, and is neither the source of healing nor pain.
Of course, it wasn’t that dream or even coming down with MS that turned me away from any belief in the possibility of a personal deity. (There are intellectual reasons for that; i.e., I read and studied my way out of christianity.) However, I think if I still believed in god, I’d feel so much worse imagining that he “who so loved the world” must hate me and so many other suffering people. A world without any god at all and a finite life are much preferable to such a monstrosity.
It's a bitter pill to swallow, but the fairy tale of a magical man looking after us is just a lie some of us tell ourselves to feel better.
In any case, for what it's worth, let me add my sorrow for your loss as well.
"no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you"
"I don't preach"
Retired 1SG Rob:
You are insulting. You do preach. So you are a liar.
Why can't you f***ing Xtians just stifle yourselves when someone experiences incredible tragedy.
You are always looking for the bright side. 'My imaginary god-superstition is there for you'.
Sometimes there is no bright side! There's just cruel, unspeakable pain like Scott is going through.
You people really make me sick. This stuff is not even well-intentioned. It's about getting your religious belief out there. How cheap and phony you are.
Disgusting.
Steve
I second what you said. Good for you.
****
Retired 1sg Rob,
After just reading how he felt about christian grief apologetics, you just couldn't help yourself, could you?? Had to throw in that "this too shall pass with the help of an invisible friend" crap, huh?
NOT the time or place. Insensitive. Cruel. Doubtless you meant well, but you could have found a more appropriate way to express your sympathies. I know that a retired 1SGT should have learned more tact than that.
****
Scott,
Like many others, I lack the proper words and experience to comfort you, so please accept my best wishes and hope for a brighter future for you and your family.
Sincerely,
Monk
I'd also like to apologize for potentially starting/carrying on an argument in the midst of your grief.
Although I can never know how you REALLY feel - I have had similar events happen to me in my life, and you have my sincerest empathy.
Don't look for an answer from a god who isn't there. It will only open your heart up to more pain and confusion. Sh*tty things happen for no good reason, and time is the only thing we can count on to eventually dull the pain. Religion will never give you an answer - only more questions and mysterious phrases like "it's God's will".
I hope you can pull through soon. Losing such a huge part of yourself is the hardest thing that can ever happen. Find strength in yourself to heal - not because "god" wants you to, but because your son would want you to.
Wayne
Rob,
The only problem is I can't tell the difference between God being there for me and God not being there for me.
Are you beginning to get the point, you delusianal BOGINT.
I'm adding you to my list of asinine platitudes!
Scott
Muslims do it all the time when they refuse to eat pork yet kill other human beings without any problems.
You'd think human life is more sacred than eating an animal or not.
Sorry for your loss but don't blame a non-xisting being who didn't even save his own son or his own creation from the fall. Supposedly.
If that Abraham guy slit his son's throat because god told him to he'd be locked up for life in a mental institution today.
If the premise is that every event, including even having to bury our own children, is part of "God's plan"---and further, that we'll see them, and our other dearly departed loved ones in another life, provided we believe the former, then isn't that to implicitly say that you have the "perfect explanation"? I think so, and as well-intentioned as you might be, the condescendsion, arrogance, and elitism "shines" through, IMO.
A former coworker of mine failed to buckle her ten year old in his seatbelt and rolled her truck after having a few drinks. He was ejected and died instantly. She lost her son, job, and did jailtime, yet she had to carry on for she had another child. She is doing remarkably well four years later. The human mind does heal over time although never fully. You will always have a hole in your heart, but you can go on and help others. Join a support group and engage with those who have suffered similar losses. Just keep talking to people like us. Read books dealing with grief. I can't imagine losing a child. Please accept my most sincre sympathy and turn to real people in the real word, not imaginary invisilbe men.
xrayman
Not having children, I ignore what's like to have my offspring die on me, and at that age. Thank you for explaining what you are going through. It helps me fathom the magnitude of your pain. My thoughts are with you.
But you not only lost your son, you also lost your god, making your hurt even greater. It is unfortunate that bad things have to happen before we can realize that the personal God of the Bible doesn't exist.
Hang in there buddy. Christianity has told you that your strength is in the Lord. But that's a lie.
YOU have strength and YOUR own strength will see you through this. Again, hang in there.
Hugs!
Thanks for sharing your story. Having two boys myself, I can imagine your pain. I agree wholeheartedly with your ideas especially when it comes to what our children mean to us, and our responsibility to them. That is something the biblegod has never seemed to understand. Therefore, 'his' followers do not either. Now that I am an atheist, I value human life to a much greater degree than I did as a Christian. A few months after leaving my Christian life behind, my wife had a miscarriage. Now, I don't presume to equate my suffereing to yours by any means, but merely to make the point that for me only time has helped to ease my loss. Although, my dreams, and different circumstances will remind me, I still find it easier as an atheist to deal with. This is because I don't blame a non-existant God for forsaking me anymore. I know that horrible things just happen. Hearing of those 'well-meaning' Christian friends of yours giving you all of those excuses for why their God failed, pisses me off too! I truly feel that belief in the biblegod lessens our ability as humans to have compassion and love for our fellow man. For my part, my heart goes out to you. Thanks again for sharing.
I'm also am so sorry for your tragic loss and know that no mere words can take away your pain. Thank you for sharing your story. I wish you the best and hope each day gets a little bit less difficult and that eventually all your memories of Connor will be joyful ones.
--to Retired 1sg and Trevor,
I'm actually sitting here sputtering and spewing at the insanity and insensitivity of your insulting, cruel comments. One of many things I've observed among xtians--they never seem to know when to keep their damn mouths shut.
--buffettphan
I would love to be able to tell you that I don't have the slightest idea how you feel, but unfortunately, I know all about it.
My husband and I lost our only child (son) a year ago. He was older than your son, but I assure you, that didn't make the slightest difference. He was not "old enough" to die.
When I deconverted, one of the lingering thoughts I had was to wonder how atheism would stand up in the hard times, when life was cruel. When put to the test, would I turn crying to God, wanting comfort?
The truth is that I do not understand how anyone who is a believer ever survives the loss of a loved one. When our son died, as unfair as it was, as grief stricken as it was, I never one time, not once, wondered what I had "done" to cause it to happen. I never wondered what Nathan had done wrong. I never wondered where he was, or what it was like for him. I never have to worry about him again.
Grieving is bad enough. It encompasses your whole emotional self, and after a year, it's not much better. People who've gone through similar losses tell us that it can take years to have the sharp pain in the gut begin to subside.
Adding guilt to that (what did I do to "deserve" this, what "lesson" is God trying to "teach me," what is "God's plan" ) to that sort of misery is absolutely cruel beyond anything I can think of.
Our family is entirely xtian, and don't understand us at all. We simply avoid them at all costs. I will not subject myself to their idiocy.
When Nate died, the people who meant the most to us where the people who loved him. Those who let us talk (endlessly) about him. Even today, they come to his MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/nathandavis and www.nathan-davis.com) and leave messages both for us and for Nate. They honestly, sincerely loved him and miss him.
I still cry every single day, although not as long and not as heartwrenching. And there are times now when I can listen to his music (he was a musician) or tell stories and laugh. I am ever so glad that he lived.
The most comfort I got was from a passage written by Richard Dawkins in Unweaving the Rainbow in which he talks about how lucky those of us who are alive are to have ever lived. When you consider the odds of ever being born, even a few years of life is the cosmic equivalent of winning the jackpot.
So focus on the time he had, the joy he brought you (and that you brought him) and remember that there is no God teaching you anything. The universe is unthinking and often cruel.
Second, 1SGT... you, regardless of your intentions or your rank, are an asshole. There is not one fucking shred of logic that you could use to support the idea that 'god' gave Scott his child as a gift and then had a perfect plan for violently, painfully and suddenly taking that child away from a totally devoted parent. There is not a single god-damned thing you can say to him or anyone that will make your selfish, sadistic, heartless 'god' any less of or any more than a fucking imaginary monster that should be shat out of your life like so much dung. There IS NO GOD. NO 'god' worth loving would do anything like you describe to 'his' beloved children.
What the fuck would you say to 2 families with patients in a hospital sharing a room? One family is a bunch of born-againer lemmings and the other is a family of either atheists or adherents of what you would call a 'false' religion. Both children die. They both die of painful illnesses followed by acute coronary failure. So, did 'god' love one so much that he 'took him home' BY DOING THE SAME GOD-DAMNED THING TO HIS LOVED ONE AS HE DID TO THE 'HEATHEN'? You are a fucking idiot to believe in a god like that.
So fucking unbelievable.
Having children of my own, I can only imagine the heartbreak you must be going through. You certainly have my deepest sympathy for your loss.
You sure did the right thing by ridding yourself of this so called xtian 'friend' !!
I am curious though, how this ex-friend of yours would have confirmed it was really his xtian god/jesus that might tell him to sacrifice his own son?
I mean, if some voice from inside his own head told him to kill his own son, is that enough evidence for him to believe the command is from his own god.
Would it instead require him seeing a ghostly figure of what he believes Jesus looks like, telling him to take his son's life.
At what point would a typical xtian be satisfied enough with proof it is their own xtian god giving this command, to go forth and not only kill, but kill one's own child.
Really, how can anyone ever verify ENOUGH that what they heard or saw was their own god/jesus communicating with them and giving them such a command.
Wouldn't most of us want overwhelming proof that this god who was giving this odd command, be the real mccoy, but even then, how many of us would really obey such a cruel decree by even a so called god being.
No one can convince me that a real universe-creating god would ever require one to kill their own children....EVER, but yet xtians buy this trait of their god, without question.
It boggles the (thinking) mind !!
Retired 1SG wrote:
"I don't have the so-called perfect explanation and by no means want to insult you're intelligence, however, no matter how bad it gets and how lost you are God is there for you"
Hey 1SG, answer me this:
You say god is there for Scott, right.
So how come god wasn't there for his son, nor was he there to offer an explanation to Scott as to why this god needed to take this innocent child shortly after creating him.
Wouldn't Scott feel at least a little bit better if your god had come to Scott IN-PERSON and explained before he took his son, that he needed his son for some divine purpose up in heaven. Does this god ever do such a thing; other than the imaginary god that some wacko xtian folks hear echoing around inside their own HOLLOW minds.
Even back when I was a xtian, I often wondered why god would take the trouble to create a child, only to let them get deathly ill and then die in the end.
Why have such an innocent baby/child be forced to endure the agony of some dreadful disease, only to die anyway. What could such a child learn about the ways of human existence on earth in such a short amount of time.
Surely these young children never reach an age where they would be held accountable for their sins to this god, so why does god bother making them here on earth, when it would save a step in the process by just creating them right there in heaven in the first place.
If for some odd reason it's some god rule that one has to be human first before one can enter heaven, then why not take all children to heaven while they are mere days old instead. Why the waiting time to take them. Is heaven undergoing expansion construction, and one has to wait for an open-cloud to reside upon, or what?
No 1SG, I'm sure you won't comprehend the lunacy in your beliefs where it concerns these innocent children, as it seems whatever your god does must be the righteous thing to do, just because he 'says so'.
As some other hospital working members here have pointed out recently, why does god let all these children suffer with terminal illnesses in hospitals and chooses to ignore their prayers to heal them and/or save their very lives?
What could any young child ever do to piss-off your god so much that he could turn his back on such innocent lives.
Please, don't give me this rubbish about the mystery of god's ways, his divine plans etc., as that is the rationale of mindless fables of old.
Frankly, NONE of you xtians have answers to any of life's real mysteries.
What you do have, are a ton of excuses for why your god fails to act when he should!!
How can your god be so heartless to not only take a child from their parents, but remain totally silent when it comes to offering an explanation as to why it was necessary?
Does your god delight in watching these parents grieve over their loss?
It sure does sound like he does, doesn't it--- xtians believers.
ATF(who thinks the so called xtian god not only lacks basic compassion, but get his kicks from watching humans in torment, even before he tosses them into his hellfire)
I dont know how you will struggle through this im really sorry for your loss
A practicle thought came to me, I hope you are getting some medical assistance to help minimise the heart wrenching depression you would be bound to feel. I hate drugs but in my life, through lesser traumas, they have kept my head above water.
kind regards
narxt
For once I'm going to bypass the psychoanalysis of the religously retarded, and offer this instead: I don't know what to say. There are no words that can frame the pain of losing a child. But you can move on. Know that finding happiness again is what your child would have wanted for you, and take the time to heal. You can find love, happiness and connection in your fellow humans, who offer you words of comfort and compassion. This is not God at work; humanity is not a measurement of an invisible man in the sky. it is the measurement of the capability of humankind, through which you will find comfort, solace and hope. Death is a part of life, something we cannot blame ourselves for. Religion will offer you nothing but dogmatic answers in your time of need, false hopes and lies and traps with which to draw you deeper into its hold. In this time of your life, the best thing you can do is turn from religion and focus on people. With time, you will heal. Let yourself feel, and with time you will heal.
Since there is no gods to help us in these times of need, we have to depend on friends for that help.
Judging from the many posts here, you have many friends. Take care and remember we care. Jim Earl
I can only imagine your anger over the suggestion that Connor's death was "God testing you". Were more perverse words ever spoken?
I often think of Colin McGinn when I hear about suggestions of this kind, who said in an interview:
"To me, it ("God is testing you") brings out this sort of hard-hearted, immoral way of thinking about things. Because just think about what's being said when somebody says that: you've got the innocent child with some terrible disease and God's up there saying to himself, "I really need to test some people here. Let me pick on this little two-year-old girl, put her through this terrible ordeal, and I'll test the other people. If any human being said to you that's what they'd done - suppose I decided, in my infinite wisdom, I need to test some people here. I need to improve their moral characters, so I'm going to do this terrible thing to their child. You'd think I was the wickedest person in the world to do that. Well, why isn't God?"
fjell
I have a one year old son, and I can only imagine the pain that I would feel if I lost him. If you run into Mr. Slit-His-Throat again, I wouldn't blame you one bit if you gave him a good old fashioned nuckle sandwich.
The only thing I can say about your friend's comment, is that He knows his God. He said He'd kill his son because He knows his God loves much, much better than he does. By knowing this truth, he also knows that obedience is the only option....nothing to worry about, because God is not malicious.
Please remember that He does love you and He feels your agony, He just wants you to turn to Him and offer it all up to Him. Tell Him you can't take it anymore, tell Him you're on the verge of who-knows, talk to Him. If your faith remains, I hope that someday you can tell your master, Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering...
Faith will restore your peace and joy someday, you can count on it...
Please don't be angry or hate anyone...just mourn.
Our family will pray for you and your son,
Trevor
I'm the one who wrote, Where are you God? Saw your remarks and I noticed that you seem so insanely obsessed that you had to post it six times? Do you just sit in front of your computer every day, all day, in your underwear typing Christian proaganda, right after your done giving your self a religious, self flogging? Could you give me your email or some way of getting a hold of you so I can tell you what I really think?
Scott
I'm sorry if my words on a loving God were so offensive to you. I repeated the post 3 times because I didn’t understand why it kept disappearing. I see that you must have deleted them so, again, please accept my sincere apology.
May God restore your peace & joy someday.
Trevor
Nice way to rub salt in another person's wounds. Just tell them they are nothing and their "master" jesus is absolutely justified in tormenting them.
Trevor, why don't you crawl back into your bible, snap the cover shut, and stay there until you develop some human empathy? You're not wanted here and you are only being cruel, just like your false idol. Shame on you!
"If your faith remains, I hope that someday you can tell your master, Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering..."
Trevor... YOUR so-called 'master', Jayzus, is THE ONE WHO SUPPOSEDLY TOOK HIS SON IN DEATH. WHY in the fuck would Scott go to some sadistic motherfucker** like Jayzus and say,
"THANKS, almighty benevolent one, for torturing and then killing my child. I owe you everything because you have been so overwhelmingly kind to do all that for me."
Trevor, your Jayzus is a fucking piece of shit. I wouldn't call that thing my master if he/it gave me everything I ever wanted. I certainly won't be cowed by your little folk-tale of "Look how Jayzus is so powerful as to kill children. You'd better bow to angry Jayzus before your kids are next."
Eat shit, you fucking loony. Why don't you go pray to Jayzus to kill YOU and/or YOUR family if it's such a supreme act of love that can't even be reasoned out in this lifetime? You are lucky we all use pseudonymns here; if I were able to find you, I'd fuck you up BAD. You and your 'god', Jayzus the Flying Zombie Jew, are both on my shit list. Funny, Trevor... you're nowhere near the top, though. Most of your Xtian asshole friends have beat you to the top 10. In fact, i've changed my mind. I'm not going to hurt you, just THANK you. You happen to have justified my (and our collective) rejection of your fucking monster-god all over again. Thanks.
**motherfucker, Jayzus:
Jayzus is god, the same as Yowee and the UberGhostie. They are all equally god, according to the Westminster Kennel Conflagration of Fake.
'God' , the UberGhostie, impregnated 'Mary'.
'God' IMPREGNATED 'Mary'.
Jayzus is 'god'.
That makes Jayzus the ULTIMATE motherfucker.
Please remember that He(biblegod) does love you and He feels your agony, He just wants you to turn to Him and offer it all up to Him.
Yes, offer it all to "Him", or be endlessly incinerated in everlasting hellfire. Yeah, we got it, add nauseum.
Dear shit-breath,
As you can see, we're on you like a moth on a flame. If your posts don't get deleted, expect more of the same. BTW, I posed questions to you in another thread that you didn't touch. This just shows me that you're not here to see anyone's point of view but your own; that you are only here to evangelize. BEAT IT!
If you are doing it just to be cruel, well, then you've reached an all-time low. It's one thing to goad us on trivial religious semantics or to make light of all the raping priest articles...
...but to mock the death of a man's child is farther below the belt than I EVER would have imagined ANY christian to go (or any human being for that matter) no matter what my opinion may be of christians or there religion.
Don't you christians realize that these are REAL people with REAL feelings you are typing this stuff to? This is NOT some computer screen that is making up a dialogue with you, christians. It is REAL people behind these screens with REAL problems.
The cruelty. The lack of compassion for your fellow man. I guarantee you that none of us would be low enough to taunt YOU during such a crisis, christians.
I weep for humanity.
I think that, if given the opportunity to outlaw all religion, we would do it...and impose what we think is right on others. This is what scares me about some of the rhetotic I read on this site. The same thing that disturbs me about christian fundamentalism also disturbs me about angry atheism. I know that the "zeal" of christian evangelism has fanned this flame and that they have taken the first shot across the bow but let's not become like them in our efforts to counter what we think are false claims.
One of my favorite quotes is actually from a 19th century Christian named G.K. Chesterton. In response to a request to write an essay entitled "What is wrong with the world?" he simply responded...I AM. Sincerely, G.K. Chesterton. I like that.
I am all for being tolerant in most cases, but this takes the cake in insensitivity. I think the webmaster should delete all such messages before Scott has a chance to read them. He is suffering enough. Jim Earl
Allow me to propose something to you. Try to think of it this way: There'd be nothing for non-believers "to tell", if it were not for people insisting that gods exist.(I say the plural of "god", assuming that all Theists are correct, which of course, we KNOW is an impossibility)
To illustrate further, there's a perfectly good reason that you don't hear people running around, over-zealously exclaiming, "leprechauns don't exist, damnit!!!!" And that reason---if it's not self-evident---is that it's implicitly and collectively understood that leprechauns don't exist.
Mike: I think that, if given the opportunity to outlaw all religion, we would do it...and impose what we think is right on others.
If any person, religious, or not, is going to make absolute claims in the positive, then it is "right" to ask for evidence to substantiate these claims, especially when the "invitation" to join them in their belief threatens bodily harm in the case that one declines.
Mike: This is what scares me about some of the rhetotic I read on this site. The same thing that disturbs me about christian fundamentalism also disturbs me about angry atheism
To me, the difference between an "Atheist", and an "angry Atheist", is the difference between a person who hates rape, and a person who's been raped. I have a right to be angry. If you'd like more details, I'll fill you in by request.
Mike: I know that the "zeal" of christian evangelism has fanned this flame and that they have taken the first shot across the bow but let's not become like them in our efforts to counter what we think are false claims.
Let me ask you---do you "think" the Islamic deity, Allah, is a false claim?...or do you know it? How about Amon Ra? Poseiden?..and on, and on, if you get my point.
Mike: One of my favorite quotes is actually from a 19th century Christian named G.K. Chesterton. In response to a request to write an essay entitled "What is wrong with the world?" he simply responded...I AM. Sincerely, G.K. Chesterton. I like that.
Perhaps it's because it's a Christian who quoted it, that I find it pathetic... or, perhaps I just find it pathetic. Either way, it smells of, "I'm a broken piece of shit, not worthy of my existence." And frankly, that is slap in the face of what it means to be HUMAN....::ouch:
So, what standard are you using to point out their obvious faults?
Mike: "The point I would like to make is that (believe it or not)christians are real people too."
Sure, but do they perceive other people in society as real as well, or as human objects in a cosmological game?
Mike: "They just think they are better than everybody else and have an exclusive hold on the truth, hence their zeal to tell it, appropriate or not..."
Actually, they have doctrine they can reference that demands they go out an proselytize to the non-believers. There is an assumption that there is thought involved here, and a rigorous attempt to understand the nature of Reality and how they inter-relate...
Perhaps, they do what they do, because they don't know any better, than what they are taught by doctrine and other religious affiliates.
Mike: "...but aren't we (agnostics and atheists) sometimes guilty of the same thing?"
Let's clear up the generalization that atheists are following a standard philosophy. The only uniting factor among atheists is the lack of an established theological first principle. Beyond that, one person can have an extremely different set of values than another, so... duh, yes, an atheist may in fact commit some foul inhumane act... but... they don't do it, because they "lack" a theological first principle.
Nor, could one intelligently suggest that an atheist is "driven" by doctrine.
Personally, as one of the crowd that doesn't accept a theological first principle (validating a God(s)), I treat others with empathy and compassion, while trying to objectively look past cultural/religious barriers - it is the "freedom" of choice, without domineering influence that allows me to be the best and admittedly worst I could be in any situation.
The difference... is that "I" get a choice, and ability to reason, to do what is best in any given situation.
So, the assertion that an agnostic or atheist make mistakes, is kind of a half-truth... yes, we all make mistakes in life, it's called maturing... the difference is, that some of us are free to grow, and hopefully learn to make fewer mistakes over time... while, others will consistently make the same inhumane mistakes over and over, because they can't seem to pull their nose out of the crack of an ancient tome.
Did he feel the agony of the dying child...
Trevor: "He just wants you to turn to Him and offer it all up to Him."
So, suicide is the ultimate offering of "all", no?
Trevor: "Tell Him you can't take it anymore, tell Him you're on the verge of who-knows, talk to Him."
So, try and trick or tempt God in order to get him to respond... because... he doesn't feel the agony of loss, he's content to just ignore...
Trevor: "If your faith remains,..."
Whether he answers or not...
Trevor: "I hope that someday you can tell your master,..."
So, all of humanity is part of a mythical serfdom?
Trevor: "Jesus, that you love Him more than your son and that you're willing to offer up every ounce of suffering..."
So, you suggest a father who loses their son, should use a form of transference, and cognitively replace the loving memories that give peace and comfort with those of a mental abstraction Lord (slave master)?
Let me guess, you also give counseling to religious married couples (sarcasm). Trevor, why don't you leave compassion to those who actually understand what it means, and those who don’t so easily prescribe mental repression as the positive “way to go” in order to find peace and joy in life. The most peaceful and joyful times Scott seems to have conveyed have been with his child, so, your response it to now “strip” away the memories of such events as well … a part that makes up his identity… So, a mental lobotomy is your encouragement for someone in suffering? I am at a loss for words, just do me a favor and stop posting your “type” of encouragement, and don’t give advice like that to anyone you actually care for – if you know what caring for someone actually means.
And your apology is most definitely not accepted and you can take your worthless prayers and shove it. You might consider giving your email to the webmaster so I could contact you. You might even learn something.
Scott
Go eat your fucking enchilada somewhere else. Theist, non-theist, atheist, Xtian or whatever you are, that last comment was fucking lame.
FIRST, use the god-damned form to fill in a NAME. Jesus Christ, use "Jesus Christ" for all the fuck we care. It's too easy to get all the empty-heads confused when you just sneak in as "Anonymous".
Second, NO ONE here gives a flying fuck about the people who just to to church for the 'fellowship', or just to be around other people. Those people are, I guess, silent and uncaring, because THEY don't bother signing up here and spreading their multitudinous layers of Bronze-Age desert-nomad horseshit over our fucking forums. The people who have their own personal, unique and introverted reasons for believing in sky-gods and flying zombies and ghosties are not the problem ones. It's the nuclear-strength ASSHOLES like "retarded 1SHIT" and "Trevor who rode the short bus to school" that I hate. "oooh, I'm so sure that my imaginary Jayzus is a healer and a helper and a savior..." yeah, come on over and regurgitate your greeting-card platitudes about "he's got the whole world in his hands" for the suffering and hurting people who are trying to navigate these tragedies without your folk-tale gods.
God-dammit... You and your Jayzus and all the related priests and pastors and all the other asshole products of your false religion have fucked US enough already. Seriously, now... GO FUCK YOURSELVES.
I'm sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine such heartwrenching pain. You have every right to be pissed at the christian idiots that spout their jibberish.
May you find the strength you need.
There is nothing I can say or do to make you feel better. I guess your best friend right now is time. It will happen. You will still miss your son but somehow in time it will be less painful.
Youre doing the right thing logically...becauset the christian god is a make believe character.
Let it go.
For my experience I try to be the best person imaginable...even though it's impossible to be perfect, I do make an honest effort. (I suck in some ways okay?) But yet even with that, we (including me) encounter day to day tragedies. When I get home and watch TV or look in the internet I see people die left and right for no reason...women getting raped...children getting molested...people starving...etc etc... In this context, life truly sucks. If there is a god (somehow I still believe that he does exist...but I have my doubts
because if he does exist, he is truly insensitive to us all.)
Danny
God is Holly, you can't find God if you are not holly. Back to Catholic Church and confess your sin. Your son is taken by God and he is happy with God, he is happier with God than with you.
hope you can find Him soon
Bugger off and take your pretend god with you. We are here to support Scott, not to talk about your hateful little mythology.
I can't imagine what you're going through. I'm so sorry for your loss, and I really have no advice or comforting words. Your story really described how awful it must be.
I liked what Ricky said about 4 dimensions; I feel the same way. Those good times are always there, in a way. My losses have never been nearly as bad as yours, but it helps me to think of the good times I had with people and pets who are gone now. I feel like they are kept alive in my memory. That is terribly cliche, but it's how I've always thought, and perhaps that thought will resonate with you, too.
Everyone else:
As far as that whole "God is teaching you a lesson" or "God is testing you" garbage, I thought of a similar analogy. Imagine a parent who wants to teach their young child a lesson- say, about the fragility of life, or how to mourn, or to lean on their parents in times of need- that parent could arrange for the child's beloved pet rabbit to die. Imagine the parent observing their child's reaction upon discovering the pet's dead body. The child is devastated; the rabbit's death is a tragedy for the child. And that parent knows he or she MADE the tragedy happen.
How might this parent feel? Hopefully, they would be struck with remorse for the horrible thing they had done. But we can assume God doesn't do that, because he keeps on doing it, over and over to new families every day. So instead, the parent continues to feel justified in what they did. They pretend to show their child sympathy, but deep down, they are pleased that the child is suffering, for that means that the parent's plan worked. Most of us would say that parent is sick and abusive.
Finally... to the last anonymous poster:
What the FUCK is wrong with you? You disgust me. Please deeply consider your insensitivity and stupidity. Do you really mean what you said? If so, you are a horrible individual. If not, learn to fucking think for yourself.
I understand your pain, as much as a person could who hasn't lost a child..I have three children myself, and that has been one of my greatest fears, knowing this life is so unpredictable.
I also understand your dislike (putting it mildly) of Christians. I grew up as a pastors kid, and there are many things that I was taught as a kid that I know now to be completely wrong.
I no longer belong to a "church" (I just see them as glorified social clubs), and I never will...all they are about is pretending to be better than they really are...
This said, I have to tell you...don't throw out the baby with the bath water...
I have found that there is a God out there and he is waaaay different than we have been taught. He is not a God that expects us to follow a bunch of principles or a certain religion.
I recently read a great book, that is very controversial, but nonetheless, I think it is truer than anything I have read yet.
I encourage everyone to read it...It is called "The Shack". It is a story of a man who felt like he had followed God all his life only to have his young daughter brutally murdered by a serial killer. He receives a note from God to meet him in The Shack where his daughter was killed...you can imagine the anger and hopelessness. But he meets a God there that is different than anything I have ever understood.
Here is a link where you can find the book, as it isn't in any stores that I know of.
http://www.theshackbook.com/
Conclusion: There is no real gods.
The reoccuring theme I saw in the quotes of readers of this book was that it inspired them to continue to belive in a god. PLEASE TELL ME I AM WRONG.
I have a question for you..."If" there was a God, would you want him to force you to love Him? Would you want him to force you to live the way he wanted? Would you want him to force you to eat what he thinks you should, work where he thinks you should, talk the way he thinks you should, and treat people the way he thinks you should so that no one gets hurt?
He gave us free will and choice, and we have ran with it and messed up this world beyone belief and then get mad at him for what we have done. And I am not saying that Scott losing Connor was his fault...just the result of a broken world.
And you are right...The Shack may encourage a belief in God..as it shows a whole other picture of God than religion teaches.
I am glad you at least checked out the link, though!:o)
Fantastic.
I can't believe I've been so right about something.
I have a question for you...."If" you were mugged at gunpoint in an alley, and the mugger said, "give me your wallet, or I'll splatter your brains against the dumpster"....would you look at that situation as he's "forcing you"?... or allowing you to exercise your "freewill""? Which?
hmmmm..of course...."if" there was a God and he were good, I would think that he would reveal himself to us in whatever way we could understand...because He is written about in fiction doesn't neccesarily mean He is fiction...there are a lot of things and people written about in fictional stories that are actually true...
""I have a question for you...."If" you were mugged at gunpoint in an alley, and the mugger said, "give me your wallet, or I'll splatter your brains against the dumpster"....would you look at that situation as he's "forcing you"?... or allowing you to exercise your "freewill""? Which?""
I know you think this is how God is, and I can't blame you because this is how he is portrayed by religions who have grossly misinterpreted and misrepresented the Bible to control and manipulate people to benefit themselves...This is not the God I have experienced, and this is not the God protrayed in this book.
"This is not the God I have experienced, and this is not the God protrayed in this book"
--
Oh great, yet another believer that has found their own UNIQUE version of god to sell us.
We've never seen anyone here before claim to have the ONLY correct understanding of this god being, no, never ever. [rolling eyes]
Okay gweny, if you want any of us to buy YOUR version of this god you experienced, you will naturally have to provide us proof that you alone discovered the 'right' god. A 'right god' that surely found YOU as his/her sole human prophet to spread his/her word to the rest of this planet's humans.
Don't you find it very odd gweny, that you were the one chosen to discover the correct version of god and that this god at the same time, chose to ignore the majority of the planet in making himself known.
That has to be far less of a chance than winning some international lottery and I'm so fortunate to have run into you qweny....like WOW.
So gweny, what type of real proof will you provide us lost souls to make your case for your own particular god person?
Will it be a little voice you heard that claimed to be god speaking directly to you?
Will it be that god came to you in a dream or woke you up from sleep to appear in your bedroom to you?
Will it be you felt this version of god in your human heart and wish to enlighten us to your feelings about him?
Will you claim (as many do with hearsay) that he healed some aliment you or someone you know, had going on?
Tell ya what gweny, how about praying to this god you're in contact with and having him/her do a real miracle for us.
How about restoring a severed limb or perhaps move one of those mountains god speaks about moving so easily with faith alone, from your bible book.
Well folks, maybe it finally happened.
Just maybe the one true modern prophet of god has finally shown up to provide us with not only the 'right stuff' about god, but will also come across with THE proof we've all been asking for.
All hail gweny and the long awaited, and now revealed, TRUE GOD.
ATF (who wonders which of the super-gods we hear about all the time, will win the 'battle of the gods' contest)
We've never seen anyone here before claim to have the ONLY correct understanding of this god being, no, never ever. [rolling eyes]""
Okay, maybe I deserve this, but in reality I never claimed to have my own UNIQUE version of God...
Actually I know countless people who have experienced this same God, and He isn't just wanting "one prophet" as you say, but he wants intimacy, a deep real, revealing relationship with everyone...there is no spokesperson.
I am not here to prove anything...I can't, because this thing has to be between each person and God themself....I could even do all kinds of miracles, and many would beleive it was just some tricks or hocus pocus.
I am only saying that maybe, just maybe the whole religious system is set up by man, maybe well intentioned at first, but it has become a horrible, controling, manipulating thing that only seeks its own interests, and distracts from who God really is.
Over the centuries there are countless examples of people who, despite the organized systems, have discovered something close and personal, and real. I think God reveals who he really is to those who really wish to find Him and not some rules or religion to follow. These people at the time spoke out against these religious organizations for the damage they did, and these people often were killed for it.
This doesn't sound like a boring, sit in the pew, be nice to everyone, follow all the rules kind of religion...it's not...it is a mysterious, unpredictable, indefinable relationship with the Good Living God.
I know this sounds like preaching, and really I am not trying to convince anyone, (maybe a little :o))...