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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
Sent in by Marie
I don't know how to summarize my story. I was raised Lutheran, and then moved into being a Baptist. I went to a Lutheran private school for several years of grade school, and then went to a private Lutheran High school for the entire 4 years.
The first time I started having doubts about my faith can be pinned on the first religion class I had of my freshman year. The teacher thought he would be really clever and came in talking like a neo-paganist, talking about how we can worship the trees, and don't take the Bible too literally. He was messing with our minds to, I suppose, open our minds and prepare us for the future. Someone I had trusted had exposed to me ideas that weren't Christian. From that point on, I struggled between labeling myself a Christian and an atheist.
All of my friends were greatly concerned for me, and I became a source of a lot of drama. Everyone wanted to save my soul. I was so frustrated and cried at night about my doomed fate to hell. I had my ups and downs throughout high school, Christian-status speaking, and converted back at one point when I saw a giant hand knocking on a door. I felt that was God.
My senior year I started getting rocky again. I decided I wanted to work at an orphanage in Mexico after graduating. But just then my sister returned from her trip to India with Youth With a Mission (YWAM). I noticed she had changed so much for the positive and decided I wanted that. So I went to a YWAM school in Mexico after I graduated.
I don't even want to go into the details of how they attempted to brainwash us and make us will-less creatures submitted to their authority. But the whole time I tried SOOOO hard to believe everything. I felt like I had to get this Christianity thing. I felt only by being a full-time missionary could I maintain my status with Christ. The school, in the end, left me in a spiritual place where I was happy.
So I decided to come back after 6 months to work at the school. But shortly before I left, I found myself in another bought of atheistic thoughts. I decided to go anyways. I gradually told the director of the school where I was spiritually and asked him if he wanted to send me home. He said no and placed me as a group leader for students and an outreach leader for a 3 month trip. This time on staff was TORTURE. I tried so hard to believe it all. But at the same time, my intellect wouldn't let me. I became so emotional about it all.
During the outreach, I revealed to the students that I wasn't Christian right now. I was so embarrassed and felt pressured. At one point, I was overcome with emotion and spirituality and found myself converting back to Christianity and crying like a maniac.
I left the school, returned to the US and found myself committing to work in a starter school in Mexicali. I only joined because the guy who asked me to come, I had a huge crush on. I worked there, and found myself committing to go under training at the original school I worked at to eventually commit 2 years to this new base in Mexicali. I didn't have any spiritual problems at that time, and felt peaceful (looking back though, I was a nut).
At the end of the training, I was to return to Mexicali. However, I found that my reason for being at the base, this guy, was now dating a chick and I wasn't getting any, even platonic, attention. I become depressed and realized the errors of my motives of coming back to the school this year. I realized I had to leave and get my motives in check.
I left the school. I got on a bus in Mexicali and drove all the way to Minnesota, giving myself 48 hours to ponder the last 2 years of my evangelical living.
I immediately settled into depression for the next 2 years, dealing with what happened in Mexico, and what has happened my entire life with wanting to be Christian, but having such a hard time.
I have finally found myself in a much more comfortable position, spiritually. I consider myself something in between a Unitarian or a Quaker, but I don't associate with any religious organization. I am now just trying to come to grips with what really happened in Mexico and throughout my life, since now I am finally confident in the custom faith I have created for myself.
Its a really painful issue to have to consider all that I have chosen to believe and do for the sake of avoiding hell in these last years. Whenever I start to think about my spiritual past, I feel ill to my stomach and find myself curled up in the fetal position. It is really hard for me to deal with. I feel extremely bitter towards the religion (but strangely enough, not the God) and everyone else who has excommunicated me because of my choice to trust myself over anyone else.
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I don't know how to summarize my story. I was raised Lutheran, and then moved into being a Baptist. I went to a Lutheran private school for several years of grade school, and then went to a private Lutheran High school for the entire 4 years.
The first time I started having doubts about my faith can be pinned on the first religion class I had of my freshman year. The teacher thought he would be really clever and came in talking like a neo-paganist, talking about how we can worship the trees, and don't take the Bible too literally. He was messing with our minds to, I suppose, open our minds and prepare us for the future. Someone I had trusted had exposed to me ideas that weren't Christian. From that point on, I struggled between labeling myself a Christian and an atheist.
All of my friends were greatly concerned for me, and I became a source of a lot of drama. Everyone wanted to save my soul. I was so frustrated and cried at night about my doomed fate to hell. I had my ups and downs throughout high school, Christian-status speaking, and converted back at one point when I saw a giant hand knocking on a door. I felt that was God.
My senior year I started getting rocky again. I decided I wanted to work at an orphanage in Mexico after graduating. But just then my sister returned from her trip to India with Youth With a Mission (YWAM). I noticed she had changed so much for the positive and decided I wanted that. So I went to a YWAM school in Mexico after I graduated.
I don't even want to go into the details of how they attempted to brainwash us and make us will-less creatures submitted to their authority. But the whole time I tried SOOOO hard to believe everything. I felt like I had to get this Christianity thing. I felt only by being a full-time missionary could I maintain my status with Christ. The school, in the end, left me in a spiritual place where I was happy.
So I decided to come back after 6 months to work at the school. But shortly before I left, I found myself in another bought of atheistic thoughts. I decided to go anyways. I gradually told the director of the school where I was spiritually and asked him if he wanted to send me home. He said no and placed me as a group leader for students and an outreach leader for a 3 month trip. This time on staff was TORTURE. I tried so hard to believe it all. But at the same time, my intellect wouldn't let me. I became so emotional about it all.
During the outreach, I revealed to the students that I wasn't Christian right now. I was so embarrassed and felt pressured. At one point, I was overcome with emotion and spirituality and found myself converting back to Christianity and crying like a maniac.
I left the school, returned to the US and found myself committing to work in a starter school in Mexicali. I only joined because the guy who asked me to come, I had a huge crush on. I worked there, and found myself committing to go under training at the original school I worked at to eventually commit 2 years to this new base in Mexicali. I didn't have any spiritual problems at that time, and felt peaceful (looking back though, I was a nut).
At the end of the training, I was to return to Mexicali. However, I found that my reason for being at the base, this guy, was now dating a chick and I wasn't getting any, even platonic, attention. I become depressed and realized the errors of my motives of coming back to the school this year. I realized I had to leave and get my motives in check.
I left the school. I got on a bus in Mexicali and drove all the way to Minnesota, giving myself 48 hours to ponder the last 2 years of my evangelical living.
I immediately settled into depression for the next 2 years, dealing with what happened in Mexico, and what has happened my entire life with wanting to be Christian, but having such a hard time.
I have finally found myself in a much more comfortable position, spiritually. I consider myself something in between a Unitarian or a Quaker, but I don't associate with any religious organization. I am now just trying to come to grips with what really happened in Mexico and throughout my life, since now I am finally confident in the custom faith I have created for myself.
Its a really painful issue to have to consider all that I have chosen to believe and do for the sake of avoiding hell in these last years. Whenever I start to think about my spiritual past, I feel ill to my stomach and find myself curled up in the fetal position. It is really hard for me to deal with. I feel extremely bitter towards the religion (but strangely enough, not the God) and everyone else who has excommunicated me because of my choice to trust myself over anyone else.
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You have made a discovery and will no doubt make further discoveries with the passage of time, through your observation, through reading and engaging in dialogues with people, whether face to face or through the Internet.
Life is a long journey of discovery.
rgds
There could be something out there controlling the universe, but it hasn't revealed itself to us yet.
It, whatever it is, may not know how to communicate with us without scaring us into extinction, because we will probabaly anile ourselves trying to prove who's god is the most real true god.
You should trust yourself tho, to what you know is true and real not what society tells you is true.
It's called "intellectual honesty" by not trying to fool your own self that the make believe doctrines written over 2000 years ago have truth.
People that believe in such nonsense are walking zombies, they cannot think in the proper perspective, they have essentually been brainwashed and devoid of their common sense.
Ever notice people under heavy conviction of thier beliefs, they cannot make intelligent decissions? You would think that they, having what they percieve as wisdom would make them smarter than everyone else, it does not, it makes them dumb'er. Just remember that you are the best person telling you what to think, because you know what is truth and what is garbage, and most people have garbage running through their minds, the religious zombies that is. TC
You said two things I really liked, and which are sort of connected.
First off you said,"... I am finally confident in the custom faith I have created for myself."
I liked this for your honesty and courage.
Second you said, "I feel extremely bitter towards the religion (but strangely enough, not the God) and everyone else who has excommunicated me because of my choice to trust myself over anyone else."
I think this is connected to the first statement in that you have trusted yourself to create your own custom faith. The great and honest thing about where you are right now is that everyone makes up their own custom faith in some way or another, but they won't admit to it - not even to themselves.
And the courageous thing you did is to trust yourself in creating it. Most people don't trust themselves to make it up, so the look around to find something they like that someone else made up, or just stick with the made up story that was foisted on them when they were young.
Congratulations on getting away from the mind-warping craziness that is christianity.
If there is a god, I'm sure they would be glad you are using the brain you were given.
Good luck, and thanks for your testimony.
- Lance
Organised religion of any kind with do's and dont's,thriving on fear is not my cup of tea.It is said 'the seeker(you) when you are ready will find your teacher and you will intuitively know that he is the one'.
So just 'be' 'you'and rest assured you will find 'the master,teacher, source...whatever you want to call him, at the right time and place.
well wisher
Thank you for sharing :-)
Welcome to the wagon of hell-bound, happy riders.
If there were a hell, I would be more than happy to share it with the intelligent bunch of people who post here, including you.
See you there!
In hell, you will be totally isolated,
So, if you really rely on and worship yourself so much, it shouldn't be so bad.
Except for the burning.
For me, Christianity cost me so much, but I learned a lot about critical thinking, cognitive dissonance, etc. in the process of believing and deconverting.
"In hell, you will be totally isolated"
Anon,
I guess you know more about hell than Dante did. Perhaps you should write a book to update Dante's diagram of hell.
See..... LINK
AtheistToothFairy
Except for the burning."
Now we know why this one clings to christianity - he's scared witless.
But, if you read your wholly babble, you'd realize heaven is no great shakes either. After all, one-third of its early inhabitants supposedly rebelled against the landlord. So much for it being a perfect place where everyone is blissfully happy.
"But, if you read your wholly babble, you'd realize heaven is no great shakes either."
--------
Thackerie,
There are some articles on the web that 'show'(using math), that heaven is actually hotter than hell, if one uses the bible for data.
If that's true, I'm glad we won't be *AS* hot in hell, as all those christians walking the molten gold steets of heaven.
http://www.cybercelebrations.com/Valentines/Heavens_hot.html
AtheistToothFairy
No, you won't.
In hell, you will be totally isolated,
So, if you really rely on and worship yourself so much, it shouldn't be so bad.
Except for the burning.
Lorena:
Holy cow! Is that you, God, threatening me with eternal torment?
You confuse me. Here I thought that you were love and didn't like revenge.
I imagine the one who wrote was you ,God, because if it hadn't, the writer would've had the decency to cite sources and to point to scientific research that can back up the claims.
Sorry, God. I've decided not to repent today. I've chosen to go to hell to have a great time with my fellow de-converts. You had 20 years to prove yourself to me and you failed. So if there really is a burning hell and I end up there, it will be your fault for having been too subtle and invisible.
It think's it's saved from it, but it loves that everyone it hates is going there.
All those it's too powerless to get back at by itself will be got back at by it's imaginary friend in the sky.
great quote,lance,and i cant give higher praise than that
However,that being said, I still think there is absolute truth and it can be found if a sincere reading of the bible is done. This sometimes takes a great deal of effort since we have to unlearn the error we have been taught all our lives.
This is not to say I've found all the answers. I still have some problems with the very existence of evil, And how a loving God can punish us for things we didn't dream up ourselves. However, the belief in any other form of beginnings of existence (evolution) requires more faith for me than believing in God.
Technical correction here: Evolution is *not* concerned with the origin of the universe; Astronomy and physical cosmology are the sciences that study such origins.
Nor is evolution concerned with the transition from non-living to living matter. That is the domain of abiogenesis.
Evolution's area of expertise is generation-to-generation change within groups of organisms. The primary mechanism of evolutionary change is relative success or failure in producing offspring over many generations.
Small copying errors in one organism's genetic code will be neutral, favourable or unfavourable. The immediate chemical environment may sometimes affect which traits are passed down to offspring, causing some alleles to be active and others dormant. A high concentration of certain proteins in the environment can effect dramatic change in relatively few generations by silencing some alleles and switching others on.
We see the winners all around us (You're one of them, and so am I), and very occasionally we find the fossilized remains of something that didn't make it.
Speaking for myself, I find that a much more satisfying explanation than "Goddidit."
---
Saxman,
Your bible interpretation, that we don't have an inherent immortal soul, is one that is common to such xtian sects as the Jehovah Witness's and the Worldwide Church of God etc..
While one 'can' make a good argument for this biblical point of view, the majority of xtians don't hold this non-immortal soul view; as you implied.
So either you belong to a sect; such as I mentioned, or you realized yourself that the bible isn't all that clear on this subject?
In my younger days, I thought as you do now. I was sure I could read and study the bible sincerely and just dig through all the controversy of what the proper translation should really be.
It was, needless to say, a foolhardy effort on my part, as it's IMPOSSIBLE to ever discover
what the authors had intended to say. There are just too many obstacles in your way to ever figure it all out with any certainty, hence the reason for hundreds of xtian sects.
I'm sure you'll continue to try hard to do so, just as I once did, but in the end I know you'll surely do one of two things.
1. You'll realize you can never discover what the authors intended meanings were, such as I concluded long ago.
2. You'll fool yourself into thinking you found that 'rosetta stone' key and be just like all the other sects; thinking you have it right and everyone else has it wrong etc..
So while your quest to 'unlearn the errors' is indeed quite admirable, it's also quite impossible to do so.
As far as finding evolution so hard to swallow, I once thought this same way as you.
Just two decades ago, I was still fighting-off the idea that evolution eventually created man from lower life forms, with co-workers who held the evolution viewpoint.
Even though I had lost most of my interest in Christianity by that time in my life, I still thought there was a creator god out there, some-where, who made us all with a snap of his fingers.
It wasn't until a few years ago that my opinion on the matter got totally reversed.
I'm sure you're wondering how I could do a complete about-face on the subject.
Bascially, two things happened to change my view.
1. As complex as the theory of evolution might seem to the casual observer, once you actually take the time to learn how it works, and take into account how MUCH broad evidence there is to support it, it doesn't seem so far-out anymore.
2. If you think it requires a lot of faith to believe evolution made all complex living things, how much MORE faith is needed to believe that something a million times more complex than evolution, just came out of nowhere in this universe.
Obviously, the more complex a thing is, the harder it is to believe it just came into existence by itself. Worse yet, this god makes the claim that it always existed and didn't even just appear one day from nothing.
Why on earth would you need LESS FAITH to believe this surreal 'theory', when evolution is not only far less complex, but has tons of evidence to back it....evidence we can SEE and MEASURE, unlike the evidence for an invisible supreme being.
Just something to ponder while you're on the LONG road, that I once belonged to long ago.
AtheistToothFairy
I was an ex-christian before, and I would like to say that there is NEVER any fulfillment in that belief!
And after you die, what will happen?
When you accepted atheism, you accepted the fact that you will do NOTHING after you die!
You, I must say, are living a useless life!
Don't feel bad... you accepted that... Have fun with what 'useful' and 'meaningful' things you will do!
How is living a religious life more "useful" then living a non-religious life?
It has given me a purpose in which no trouble in my life can ever take away.
I may fall. I may be put down.
But I will NEVER lose strength. At least, not spiritually.
I WAS an ex-christian.
I debated with my friend against the Bible. I read the scriptures and reread it.
But it's foolish to fully understand it!
Who are you to debate against it?
Not even Einstine (sorry if that's not the right spelling) could fully discharge that fact.
But it feels good you know, to have a meaningful life.
I have to tell you, I was suicidal during the time when I was an atheist.
And oh how I wish I can let you feel the way I feel right now as I'm typing this down!
Joy- pure and utter joy!
It's funny how I used to describe this feeling as phsycological.
I'm waiting for the time when He will say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant.". Oh! I just can't wait! I don't know about you, but I can't wait till it's my time to leave this earth! I cannot even imagine it!!!
Haha, good luck with your death.
"Haha, good luck with your death."
Ha ha???...good luck with your death??? Goodness gracious, if "having faith in jesus" will compel me to say such things; if it will make into such an insipid individual, I wouldn't reconvert to Christianity if Jesus showed up at my house and cooked me breakfast.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
You only found meaning in this life by attaching meaningfulness to the next. WTF, over?
Just what this world needs.
NOT!!!
Wahahaha!
You fools!
All of you! ALL OF YOU ARE AFRAID OF DEATH! You know why? Because you all don't know what is going to happen! Tell me, what is the atheistic point of view of death?
Is there hope?
There is none!
Pure and utter nothingness!
I'd rather live a life with hope for death than live a life I think is worthless if I compare it to others!
If there is, tell me!
I'll be waiting...
You are obviously a troll and haven't bothered to read the Site Purpose and Disclaimer.
As such, all your future posts will be deleted.
As far as your manic fear-laden rants are concerned, I say this: the drunk may feel that life is better when he or she is high, but that doesn't mean he or she is correct.
Life is wonderful without threats of hell and fantasies about heaven. When I discovered that Santa Claus didn't exist, life seemed less meaningful. Then I grew up.
You need to grow up.
So, let's see, who's more "afraid" to die, then?....the person who believes that death is natural part of life; that death is a reality?........or, the person who clings to the superstitious belief that when they are pronounced dead that they will 'magically' float out of their body and live forever in the clouds along side a floating, transparent, bearded man seated in a golden throne? Hmmm...I wonder.(not)lol
You accept that you will fade out of existence and someday, your name will be forgotten. Haha.
No purpose in life, no hope for death.
LOL.
Is it better to have hope for life after death and find out that you're wrong, or to have no hope for death after life and find out that you're wrong?
Answer me! You did not answer my first question.
And you are funny.
You DID not exist, you WIll not exist, heh, might as well stop existing right now.
Good luck with whatever life you've got left. In the end, you'll end up rotting, either here on earth, or in hell. Either way, you're screwed.
You accepted that anyway?
I gave my discussion, and yes, it became heated, but no insults were shared between any of us.
What a coincidence, neither do you.
Anony: "Tell me, what is the atheistic point of view of death?
Is there hope?"
Death, it happens; hope, you trying to mentally project a positive side of what happens.
Christianity; hoping hell and eternal torture is real in the afterlife, so that heaven becomes a mentally justified possibility for personal reward.
You appear a little behind the intellectual curve; but, take solace, you are not alone...
The following link, presents the interview question and answer provided by the third runner up for the Ms. Teen USA Pageant. Here was her interview question:
"Recent polls have shown, a fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a world map; Why do you think this is?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Khx0D9Vxg&mode=related&search
Well, can't say I'm surprised; perhaps, the message to all of the young ladies in America, is that the other two events are much more valuable and practical to build their future success and identity; evening-gown and swimsuit.
Yup.
"You accept that you will fade out of existence and someday, your name will be forgotten. Haha."
A few corrections here:
The matter that comprises Me will not fade out of existence. It may even change into energy.
And what's in a name, anyway? I'm not so attached to Myself that I would bother worrying about the opinions of people in a post-Me future. They are, after all, made of the same stuff as Me.
And so are you, like it or not.
You might attempt to explain how you can have more meaning in your life when you eventually get around to sitting on your magical cloud, fluttering your eyelashes at your precious little god. I see no intrinsic meaning in that kind of existence, either. Meaning is right here and right now. Nowhere else.
You accept yourself as a 'thing' a 'mistake' a 'useless blob on the face of this earth'. You consider yourself as an entity that is nothing more than energy- no- you consider yourself as a thing that's worth nothing more than sh*t.
You have already accepted the fact you cannot and will not do anything worth remembering other than the fact that you will provide carbon dioxide and nutrients for grass.
My dog does that everytime he takes a dump.
But then again, you ALREADY said that you are as helpful as my dog's excremen anyway...
Just try not to stink like one too...
As a matter of fact, I do.
You think it's foolish and unintelligent to stick to your faith.
You, my friend are the unintelligible one.
You try to understand, when you can't you give it up.
You try to prove, when you can't, you turn away.
But you will never prove it! NEVER!
And that's what makes you so foolish, because you can't take faliure.
Guess what, you failed.
Annoyin'us inquires: Then you are stating that you accept that you will die, rot, and feed plants when you take your last breath. Am i correct?
Yes, I accept that I will die. You are very astute, aren't you? 'Sorry to rain on your little party-in-the-clouds parade---but there is not one shred of scientific data that supports post-mortem "life"....for me, YOU, or any other living organism, for that matter. Seriously now, do you honestly think that just because you can "read about" humans camping out in whales, witch doctors, giants, unicorns, virgin births, swimming hammers, fiery chariots, Hebrew speaking donkeys, snakes, and shrubberies....and last but not least, people who survive death..i.e.."zOmBiEs".. that any of it has any kind of referent in reality? Good grief, if so, then maybe your great-grandma lived in a giant sneaker, huh? Or maybe the moon's made of cheese?
Annoyin'us continues: You accept that you will fade out of existence and someday, your name will be forgotten. Haha.
haha! yep!
Annoyin'us: No purpose in life, no hope for death.
"Hope for death"?? Oddly, it's you, the religionist, who seems to be focused on "death". I know it's a concept that you could never grasp, but it's precisely because life is finite, that gives it more meaning. We should be asking the Theists---if you're so confident that the world is one big giant f%cking abortion(after all, "God" allegedly "regrets" creating you)..not-to-mention, it's doom-laden with "sinners".....then what's stoppin' you? Beat it! Leave the earth to those who appreciate what it means to be alive.
Annoyin'us inquires: Is it better to have hope for life after death and find out that you're wrong...
Um, let's see now---if you're "wrong"; if there's no life after death, then you WON'T "find out", will you? Duh? **You might want to think your asinine questions through before you ask them, 'k Einstein?
continues...or to have no hope for death after life and find out that you're wrong?
lol! hope for death after life? See here**, above.
Annoyin'us: Yes! I accept that death is a part of life! But that's death physically. Christians believe that death is not the end of our spiritual selves.
Oh shit...and Raelians "BELIEVE" that UFO's are meeting them in Utah to do a little space-trucking; Bigfoot trackers "BELIEVE" there's domestic gorillas in their back yards. SO??? A belief is a belief is belief is a belief is a belief. If "beliefs" are "true" just because they are "beliefs"..then according to Muslims, you'll be burning in Islamic Hell = )
Annoyin'us blathers: You DID not exist, you WIll not exist, heh, might as well stop existing right now
Good grief> Okay, let's examine this logic. If you haven't gone to your son or daughter's one and only graduation, but yet, the ceremony doesn't last "indefinitely", then what?... you shouldn't go, right? If you've never been to a theme park and a friend gives you free passes to Disney Land, but yet, the passes aren't good "indefinitely", then you shouldn't do that either, right?? If this sounds like stupid logic to you, then Anonymous, I'd like you to meet your own logic.
Annoyin'us: Good luck with whatever life you've got left. In the end, you'll end up rotting, either here on earth, or in hell. Either way, you're screwed.
So, basically what you're saying is that everyone should be a Christian "just in case". Wow, what compelling reason to believe something. Okay, maybe you should believe in Allah, "just in case". Maybe you should leave some Oreos out for Santa, "just in case". Dolt.
Annoyin'us chirps: My dog does that everytime he takes a dump.
Why don't you just shoot your dog?....after all, dogs don't live forever in doggy heaven, right? Right, it's life is "meaningless", plus, you wouldn't have to work the pooper-scooper anymore.
Haha! You wake up, do whatever useless things you have to do, then go to sleep. The process repeats everyday till you die.
You're more foolish now!
As an entity, you are worthless, you have no buisness to be living at all. It is what you have accpeted. If you believe in evolution, than you have agreed to say that you are a monkey. If you believe in nothing, then you are evidently the most idiotic man/woman on earth.
Nah... I believe that you are the evolutionist, you have the mind of a monkey anyway...
Or maybe even smaller.
I choose to live, and I establish My own right to live by the act of doing just that.
And, after My body dies, those values will transfer to whatever I then become.
"Haha! You wake up, do whatever useless things you have to do, then go to sleep. The process repeats everyday till you die."
Yes.
And so do you.
The major difference is that your "useless things" include a lot of thinking and hoping and praying for life after death... A hypothetical state in which you will continue to do "useless things"...
...For eternity. Ick.
I "saw" the end of time when I was eleven years old. No meaning there, either. Perhaps that's why I never did quite comprehend the appeal of eternal life. But I do rather love doing stuff (useless or otherwise) in the here-and-now.
Define fact and knowledge, or not, I don't suspect you have a clue to what either of those two words actually mean.
Anony: "You think it's foolish and unintelligent to stick to your faith."
Not at all, I have all the faith I can possibly have in "me", to know what is "real", and what isn't.
Anony: "You, my friend are the unintelligible one."
Unintelligible... is that the same thing as illigitimate, like Jesus for example?
Anony: "You try to understand, when you can't you give it up."
Therefore, you assert that when you can't understand, you should still accept it... nice.
Anony: "You try to prove, when you can't, you turn away."
No, what I "know" is "proof", of "all" that I "know"... I haven't turned away from anything that I "know"... if you want to give me evidence so that I may expand what I "know", I'll gladly inspect it.
Anony: "But you will never prove it! NEVER!
Uh, berk, my knowledge is limited to my life experience, I know for a fact I have not met a God, and that is all the proof I'll ever need.
You seem very young and idealistic. As you mature, you'll find that you really aren't the center of the Universe like the biblical planet earth, or that everyone on this earth "must" prove or disprove your information.
Nope, I'm an atheist, because of "my" life, not yours. If you want to "prove" that "I" have met a God, specifically "your God", and that I refuse to admit the fact; then "you" prove it to everyone else.
Anony: "And that's what makes you so foolish, because you can't take faliure."
So, I should embrace "failure", like you, so that I am less foolish? The more of a failure, and accepting of my sinful nature, the less foolish I become to you - sounds like original sin, and self-rejection being blown in under an IQ radar of about 88 +/-5 pts.
Anony: "Guess what, you failed."
Yes, I failed to remain ignorant; but I have much confidence you are going to ace that test for quite some time to come.
After all, my dog's life has more meaning anyway...
Of course, you don't realize it, but with every word you blather about "death", and "meaningless" lives, you make it clearer and clearer that you believe that "life" is intrinsically pointless. In other words, you are essentially arguing that to "live", in and of itself, is pointless. Since this is your position, then I ask: what point is there to "live" forever, then? Can you tell the class? Can you enlighten us, Oh Enlightened One? Can you address ANY of the questions put to you?.....or will your impenatrable ignorance only allow you to keep regurgitating your Xian Nihilistic clap-trap?????? Will you at least tell us your age? Be honest....Allah is watching, and Islamic hell is a muthaf%cka.
Living forever in heaven is way better. Streets of pure solid gold, food that tastes way better than it does here on earth, no more crying, arguing...although I relish arguing with those who try to rationally prove God. If you've heard the stories of REAL Christians, you'd realize, God ain't RATIONAL (at least in the minds of us puny humans).
Humans were domesticated from monkeys just as dogs were domesticated from wolves and cats were domesticated from lions and horses from zebras and chickens and birds from ostriches, lizards from aligators, salamanders from fish, we're just hairless monkeys we tend to think we are different because we can talk and wear clothes.
We're still animals, we eat and deficate and fart just like all other animals, we breathe and we sweat and drink water just like animals, we breed just like all other animals, our sperm is white just like all other animals, we sleep just like all other animals, we smell like animals.
We have tried to fool ourselves by electing ourselves as being a higher species with our make believe god from the other animals, but we're not.
Humans are animals, no more, no less, we're equal to animals, just watch the daily news, even the wild animals act more civilized than we do.
Misty
If humans are domesticated from monkeys, then who (or what) domesticated us?
According to the second law of thermmodynamics, everything spontaneously tends toward disorder. Things just don't get better by themselves.
Fish to salamanders? What a huge change? They certainly did not change by themselves, and humans certainly don't have the capability to change them that drastically. So answer me: who (or what) did?
And if you haven't noticed, monkeys could wear clothes (although I don't know what would would drive them to do such a thing). and if you've seen the idiots who do such things, you could put clothes on dogs, too.
We ARE HIGHER because we have the capability to make that kind of decision.
get a life and a brain while you're at it!
Please click the "other" radio button and start using a pseudonym. A suggestion would be "redneck."
Ain't going to high school in the Deep South greaaat?"
Thanks.
Furthermore, you seem to only recieve value from your imaginary friend. Are you that much of a waste that you have to create an imaginary friend to give your life meaning? Isn't there any real person that loves you? Perhaps you can gain real value from your pet that needs you, or do you need it more?
We'll let you have your imaginary friend to play with if that's all you really have that gives your life meaning and value, but we are a little bit beyond needing anothers validation to give our lives meaning. We certainly don't need to make up imaginary beings and insist that they are real.
But if thats all you got then have at it.
But don't bother us with it.
I'm from the Land o' Lakes. Of course, if you're like so many Americans, you probably couldn't find it on a map, much less know what state it is.
And, life has a use in Hell in forever torture in the afterlife for everyone, but those who believe like you do...
Anony: "Living forever in heaven is way better. Streets of pure solid gold, food that tastes way better than it does here on earth, no more crying, arguing...although I relish arguing with those who try to rationally prove God."
Wow, I suppose you've actually "been there", to forever-ever land, and saw streets of gold, and ate at the best Waffle House in the multi-verse. Wonder which passage in the bible talks about forever ever land, with gold streets, and a magic Waffle House...
Arguing... isn't that how Satan/Lucifer, etc., was kicked out of the big-house according to the Christian fairy tale... not in the bible.
Anony: "If you've heard the stories of REAL Christians, you'd realize, God ain't RATIONAL (at least in the minds of us puny humans)."
So, you have to be "irrational", to talk about God, and irrational ranks right up there with a measure of insanity; I can see your reasoning, you present a pretty solid case on the matter.
False. No one said that you have to be irrational to understand God. But you must GIVE up trying to understand!
But then again, I guess you are too idiotic to understand the word give up. Instead you give in to your 'rational' ideas and run away scared because you are afraid of anything that you can't comprehend!
Lol, I got you figured out.
It could be all in your imagination. You made it up and that means it isn't real.
Or
Are you so pathetic that you can't make up your own imaginary friends and so you have to borrow one from someone else. Is that why god doesn't make sense?
Dear Cheesehead, when you figure out why you dismiss the claims of Islam as silly and irrelevant, then you'll understand why we dismiss your rants about your silly god so easily.
Oh, and the word irrational is basically the opposite of rational. You either make a decision rationally or irrationally. Based on your emotional outbursts, your belief has nothing to do with reason and everything to do with irrational emotion.
Regardless, please click the "other" button and make up a pseudonym. You’ll still be technically anonymous. Please keep in mind that this isn’t your website -- you are a guest. It is odd that someone who proclaims himself magically transformed by the living God would be such a rude guest as to ignore a simple request.
Oooh, since you know so much about Heaven – Can married people who are in Heaven together have sex?
If we die single can we meet someone in Heaven and get married?
Or can you just hit the bar scene up there and pick up a random bloke for a kinky one nightstand?
And do we have to worry about HPV and other STDs?
Eternity is a long time to go without sex, ain't it?
And speaking of magical waffles are there magically toilets too?
The kind that never get clogged. Oh, do the angels run the sewer system there or do we just poop on the heads of those in hell?
Just curious.
But not too idiotic to count---"give up" is two(2) words.
But anyway, yes, "give up"...i.e.. stop thinking; stop asking questions; stop trying to understand; accept the norm, and on, and on, and on....in other words, pretty much, become like an impenatrably ignorant teenager. No thanks....been there; done that.
Anony', you're obviously not here to have a discussion, but only to be provocative. Upon review, I understand the "validity" of everything you've tried to argue for thus far, say rests here:
Christians believe that death is not the end of our spiritual selves.[bold added]
Wow. Powerful.
Okay, as I pointed out earlier--and as you chose to ignore--just because someone "believes" something, does not mean it has a referent in reality. Obviously, Muslims "believe" that you will burn in Islamic hell. But you disregard that belief, don't you? Yes?....well, we disregard your "belief" just the same. If you'd like to take the discussion from insults, "haha's", and caricaturing the non-theist position with your empty rhetoric---to---discussing the evidence you have that your "belief" is true, and all others false, let's do that. Otherwise, you've worn out your stay here, and hopefully, the webmaster will just start deleting your future posts. The end.
Is it not true then that atheists "believe" that there is no God?
Do not throw foolish and idiotic reasonings at me when YOU yourself "believe" in something!
You hypocrite.
Funny. Well, hormones are very hard to handle huh?
I'm not necessarily sure about that part, but hey, who knows?
I mean, it's pretty weird how some desires can't be let go easily, but like I said, who knows?
But I'm pretty sure that you wont get any STD's (or any sickness) in heaven.
Good enough for you?
Hmmmm... And since the opposite of a dog is a cat, any animal that is NOT a dog is a... cat...
Are you implying this too?
A decision can be (and should be) thought up rationally, although some decisions are hard to make, you must think rationally about your desicion.
But there are times when you CAN'T rationalize things, times when you CAN'T put things in order.
Are you saying, when these times come up, you think irrationally?
Is that your thinking?
If so, then I'm not surprised. (LOL)
Instead, you either give it up to faith or ignore the problem and run away.
You chose the second one, you noticed that you can't solve Him and so, defined him as 'false' and 'unreal'. All you're trying to do is trying to look smart and making a whole cock of yourself.
You want other people to think that you are 'soooooo riiiggghhhttt' in your thinking and believe that you are the next genius. When you are really a loser, a maybe a fat guy in a basment of his mother's house. Or maybe just some passer-by loser who had too much time on his hands and decided to make this website and show off his 'discovery' to any other idiotic dickwad of a moron who secretly agrees with you.
"You need to grow up."
Haha, YOU need to see what's happening around you. You avoid miracles and try your best to ignore anything you can't explain.
I'm tired of shoving the truth to you, I'm tired of giving in to my anger and typing things to either aggrivate or just insult you. This will be my last post, any other anonymus person who will try to show the truth to you will not be me.
But I know this, you, all of you, WILL know the truth someday. Hopefully, it will not be too late.
Have fun finding ways to insult or disprove our beliefs. I will wait. I will reveal myself to you, webmaster, either here in this life, or the next(although you don't believe this). And I will pity you, oh, I can see it now, all of you groveling in fear for turning away from everything that tried to pull you to salvation.
May God have mercy on your souls.
Ignore this, if you want, it's your choice, it has always been your choice.
Although I already pity you for the decision you have made.
Grow up.
So, one must accept what they can't understand? Let me repeat that, I think you are "missing" the point; by your suggestion that a person must "GIVE" up trying to understand God, you are;
1-Implying that God can't be understood by limited humanity.
2-Implying that people can understand God, but shouldn't because of some unknown reason you haven't provided.
In either case; this suggests (if you are not a hypocrite), that you don't understand God, yet, if you are a Christian, you "worship", "pray to", and "perform ritualistic acts" (baptism, etc.) because that is what you are "told" to do. Yet, anony, you blindly do as you're told. Without understanding God, you have no clue, whether or not your actions have any "meaning" in such a relationship.
If God is just a word, then it doesn't matter what you do in your life; pray every five minutes, the word is not going to be influenced by your actions.
I suspect, you are curious about what you have been told by someone, who you believe is honest and has given you some miracle pill to "make sense" out of why you can't "know" of God, which means, to "understand" God.
You can't "understand" God, because you have "nothing" to relate the word "God" to, in this Reality. You were given a harmonic sound, God, which you now hold in your memory, and you can recognize the phonetic sound via symbols/characters, but you can't take your thought or the word on a page, and link/connect them to something in this Reality.
Therefore, the "True" identity, of your God, in proper context; is just a thought you hold... and the thought is a recorded message, it was a sound, that later became associated to characters/word you could recognize for memory recall.
So, you see the word God, and you recall your memory, and what do you get... the mental "sound", and that's about it.
The reason you were told to not reflect upon that word, is that the word is nothing more, than just a word; and if you were to "understand" that point, you would no longer be capable of "believing", that the word, held more "context" than it "Truly" does.
Anony: "But then again, I guess you are too idiotic to understand the word give up."
Give up? What is it that I would be giving up, if I didn't "understand" what I would be "giving" up? I don't "understand", what you are "talking about", do you "understand", or... do you not want to "understand" anything, to include the reason why you spend time worshipping a word - God?
I gave up, trying to "give up", because only "giving up" is for "quitters" in the game of life, but, you don't care about this life anyway, so, that will likely not make much "sense" to you - do you "understand"?
Anony: "Instead you give in to your 'rational' ideas and run away scared because you are afraid of anything that you can't comprehend!"
Rational: "1. agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.
2. having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.
3. being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rational
Rational, means, by definition, to be "mentally sane"... for you to suggest that my "sanity" causes me to run from that which I don't understand... and that I should let go or "give up" my mental "sanity" so that I can be a true "believer", actually makes sense...
Someone "insane", can't "understand" anything, to include the word God.
So, once again, I am not willing to become "insane", in order to become a "blind follower" (one who doesn't understand what they do) of something I "don't", understand.
Someone likely "told" you not to "think" too much about the word God, thinking/understanding is not "good" for someone trying to blindly follow a religious leader...
And, to promote "insanity" and "non-understanding" of one's "life", is harmful to both the person mentally, and those around them. There are entire religious groups that teach how not to be "intelligent", so that they can be freely "insane"... to argue against acting "sanely/rationally", is what an anti-intellectual would attempt to do...
"Anti-intellectualism describes a sentiment of hostility towards, or mistrust of, intellectuals and intellectual pursuits. This may be expressed in various ways, such as attacks on the merits of science, education, or literature."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
You get your information, from someone who is obviously an anti-intellectualist, at least about understanding and being intelligent about what the word God means.
Anony: "Lol, I got you figured out."
Well, is that you attempting to be "rational", or "insane" about what you believe about me?
....you[non-theists] either give it up to faith or ignore the problem and run away.
And which "faith" would that be? Any time you accept something on "faith", you open the door to an infinite number of things to be accepted as "truth", in lack of empirical verifiable evidence. In other words, with "faith", one can believe, literally, ANYTHING. The problem---your problem---is that "believing" something doesn't mean it has a referent in reality. Little children have "faith" that they have invisible friends, too... and that their dollies talk to them.
Since your arrival, you've been asked several times to provide evidence that the "Christian Faith" is "True™", and all other religious faiths false. Tell me, when will you either, a) enlighten us with this evidence, thus, negating your "faith", or b) show us that all other systems of "faith" are false. Waiting.
Annoyin'us: All you're trying to do is trying to look smart and making a whole cock of yourself.
Honestly, you really haven't set the "smart" bar too, too high..have you? I mean, you think the "opposite" of "dog" is "cat", and you think "give up" is one(1) word. So, we don't really have to do too much to look smart around you, do we?(rhetorical)
Annoyin'us: You want other people to think that you are 'soooooo riiiggghhhttt' in your thinking and believe that you are the next genius.
Find me any post on this thread that suggests anything remotely like that. A position of neutrality does NOT mean one claims "genius"--it means they're waiting on credible evidence before they make the information a "belief". 'Follow? Waiting.
Annoyin'us: You avoid miracles and try your best to ignore anything you can't explain.
I've got an idea----why don't you show us a f%cking "miracle" by addressing the things put before you? Wha'da ya say, little man? If you refuse to do that, show evidence of some other "miracle". This should be interesting...... in a "haha" kind of way.
Annoyin'us: But I know this, you, all of you, WILL know the truth someday. Hopefully, it will not be too late.
We know the truth now--everybody dies. After that, no one will "know" anything. 'Hope that helped.
Annoyin'us: I will wait. I will reveal myself to you, webmaster, either here in this life, or the next(although you don't believe this). And I will pity you, oh, I can see it now, all of you groveling in fear for turning away from everything that tried to pull you to salvation.
Oooo...a bunch of groveling zombies. 'Sounds like "Dawn of the Dead", only real!! Boo!!!
continues...May God have mercy on your souls.
Yes, may Allah spare you.
Anony's last words: grow up
Speaking of "grow".....why don't you GROW a set of balls and for once actually challenge the bullshit beliefs that your mommy and daddy spoon-fed you. Dolt.
I'd like to recommend that you attempt to evangelize with love for Love as best as possible. You have a highly abrasive and condescending attitude with these people of unbelief. Please try to remember that the faith you have is a grace from God and that you & I did nothing to merit this grace. If we can all humble ourselves enough to remember this (our sinful nature does make it difficult), we should be turning torwards God in prayer and sacrifice for all those that are choosing a life of ignorance tow