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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
Sent in by Stronger Now
These are the things that I was told were the most important:
1. Faith in Jesus.
2. Family bonds.
That's it.
It was drilled into me from birth. You always take care of family because they'll take care of you. You never ever stray from faith in the almighty god. He is watching out for you even when family isn't.
And I believed it.
Even when I was molested by my older brother.
I was eight. He was pushed into doing it by an even older cousin. And I still believed it. I couldn't tell on them. They were family. I couldn't betray them anymore than I could question why god let it happen. So I started to believe it was my fault. After all I could have yelled NO! and stopped them. That's the way I thought of it and the guilt was incredible. I read the bible and went to church and learned all about forgiveness. So that's what I felt I really needed to do. So I did. But the memory and unwarranted guilt never went away.
At fourteen I decided to kill myself. It was that bad for me. I almost pulled that trigger but... who would find me? I had a younger sister and if she saw such a thing...well she was family and I had to look out for her. Also, I wasn't sure god would forgive me. I acted like I had forgotten the abuse so My brother and I could live peacefully in the same house. And it was working. All I had to do was really forget and life could be so sweet again. I prayed my ass off trying to get help from god to forget. It didn't work of course, but I tried.
From the out side I seemed almost normal. After years of hiding in plain sight I could be easily forgotten by almost everyone that wasn't in my family. It was almost as good as death. But hormones did get the better of me and I had to mimic some social skills so I could get laid. I was sure god would forgive me of that.
And It worked! I had girlfriends and was having a great time from an outsiders perspective, but of course the reality was when any of the girls would try to get too close to me emotionally I had to get gone. They weren't family.
Then I met somebody who seemed to understand me without a lot of uncomfortable questions. I fell in love with her hard and fast. She felt the same so we got married. She was now family. I felt god had blessed me for my forgiveness and loyalty.
Then she started seeing that I wasn't quite right. I was never myself in a group and wanted no socializing outside of family surroundings. I was still going to church and still prayed for "forgetfulness," but it wasn't working. I also prayed for "peace in my heart" and that "calm of Christ". That wasn't working either. Why? Oh yea, I wasn't to question god.
So as my mind slipped further into a downward spiral of guilt, despair, and confusion, I my wife couldn't help but notice I was acting insane. I couldn't hide it any longer and she was at the right place at the wrong time and saw me for the nut I had turned myself into. I had to explain to her why I was nuts. I had to choose to either betray my brother or her. I chose to betray my brother. I was sure god would forgive me.
She agreed to help me find a therapist. I needed one. She also agreed to keep my secret to herself. And I slowly got hold of my mind again.
Then she told someone. It was my brothers wife. So I wondered if I had chosen correctly. Things eventually got hashed out and things got much better, for a while. Then My brother and his wife started to not want anything to do with my wife. How could this be? Wasn't she family? I felt like I was caught in the middle of a war and neither side could see how it made me feel. All through this I prayed to god for guidance.
It took a year of almost constant prayer before I almost lost my mind again. But this time I heard a still small voice. It spoke to me. It said "FUCK IT!" and it was me.
I had enough shit for one life and I can't take it another second. If Jesus and god the father were real they were going to show me now cause I'm tired of this waiting for them to do their shit. Last chance Big Daddy!
Guess what? nothing happened. Well, that answers that!
I figured that if they weren't real then I was going to have to do it on my own. So I stopped talking to my brother and moved hundreds of miles away with my wife and kids and so they wouldn't feel uncomfortable seeing each other at the grocery store.
Things are better for me now that I started to forgive myself for buying into the lies of xtanity and family. I have my family and I chose them. I still don't like to socialize and I suppose I never will. I'm okay with that. I'll probably never speak to my brother again, and I'm okay with that. My mom and sisters will miss us and I'll miss them, and I'm okay with that. I can finally start to be okay.
I'm stronger now, and that's the point.
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These are the things that I was told were the most important:
1. Faith in Jesus.
2. Family bonds.
That's it.
It was drilled into me from birth. You always take care of family because they'll take care of you. You never ever stray from faith in the almighty god. He is watching out for you even when family isn't.
And I believed it.
Even when I was molested by my older brother.
I was eight. He was pushed into doing it by an even older cousin. And I still believed it. I couldn't tell on them. They were family. I couldn't betray them anymore than I could question why god let it happen. So I started to believe it was my fault. After all I could have yelled NO! and stopped them. That's the way I thought of it and the guilt was incredible. I read the bible and went to church and learned all about forgiveness. So that's what I felt I really needed to do. So I did. But the memory and unwarranted guilt never went away.
At fourteen I decided to kill myself. It was that bad for me. I almost pulled that trigger but... who would find me? I had a younger sister and if she saw such a thing...well she was family and I had to look out for her. Also, I wasn't sure god would forgive me. I acted like I had forgotten the abuse so My brother and I could live peacefully in the same house. And it was working. All I had to do was really forget and life could be so sweet again. I prayed my ass off trying to get help from god to forget. It didn't work of course, but I tried.
From the out side I seemed almost normal. After years of hiding in plain sight I could be easily forgotten by almost everyone that wasn't in my family. It was almost as good as death. But hormones did get the better of me and I had to mimic some social skills so I could get laid. I was sure god would forgive me of that.
And It worked! I had girlfriends and was having a great time from an outsiders perspective, but of course the reality was when any of the girls would try to get too close to me emotionally I had to get gone. They weren't family.
Then I met somebody who seemed to understand me without a lot of uncomfortable questions. I fell in love with her hard and fast. She felt the same so we got married. She was now family. I felt god had blessed me for my forgiveness and loyalty.
Then she started seeing that I wasn't quite right. I was never myself in a group and wanted no socializing outside of family surroundings. I was still going to church and still prayed for "forgetfulness," but it wasn't working. I also prayed for "peace in my heart" and that "calm of Christ". That wasn't working either. Why? Oh yea, I wasn't to question god.
So as my mind slipped further into a downward spiral of guilt, despair, and confusion, I my wife couldn't help but notice I was acting insane. I couldn't hide it any longer and she was at the right place at the wrong time and saw me for the nut I had turned myself into. I had to explain to her why I was nuts. I had to choose to either betray my brother or her. I chose to betray my brother. I was sure god would forgive me.
She agreed to help me find a therapist. I needed one. She also agreed to keep my secret to herself. And I slowly got hold of my mind again.
Then she told someone. It was my brothers wife. So I wondered if I had chosen correctly. Things eventually got hashed out and things got much better, for a while. Then My brother and his wife started to not want anything to do with my wife. How could this be? Wasn't she family? I felt like I was caught in the middle of a war and neither side could see how it made me feel. All through this I prayed to god for guidance.
"Lord God Show me what you want of me. Give me strength and show your loving guidance to my wife and brother and his wife. Heal our broken family Please. And let your peace be in us all."
It took a year of almost constant prayer before I almost lost my mind again. But this time I heard a still small voice. It spoke to me. It said "FUCK IT!" and it was me.
I had enough shit for one life and I can't take it another second. If Jesus and god the father were real they were going to show me now cause I'm tired of this waiting for them to do their shit. Last chance Big Daddy!
Guess what? nothing happened. Well, that answers that!
I figured that if they weren't real then I was going to have to do it on my own. So I stopped talking to my brother and moved hundreds of miles away with my wife and kids and so they wouldn't feel uncomfortable seeing each other at the grocery store.
Things are better for me now that I started to forgive myself for buying into the lies of xtanity and family. I have my family and I chose them. I still don't like to socialize and I suppose I never will. I'm okay with that. I'll probably never speak to my brother again, and I'm okay with that. My mom and sisters will miss us and I'll miss them, and I'm okay with that. I can finally start to be okay.
I'm stronger now, and that's the point.
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I feel practically speechless, almost intrusive by responding. Still, you put your story out there, and I think that's a good thing.
It's no small wonder that you don't wish to socialize. You never had the opportunity to learn what that is or the benefits of socializing growing up. You were isolated by the crime committed against you. Your beliefs about family and "forgiveness" isolated you further. You have been alone most of your life. You had to deal with a deep wound as a child, ill equiped to do so.
I am glad you are sharing your story, your life, with us. Please do not give up doing that. That may be hard at times. We live in a world of hurt and it is all to easy for some to not value openness about such things because there is so much of it around. Still, I think it is part of getting better and as you do, maybe you can help others in similar situations because you can relate.
paul
I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that I have always had a serious concern about what to believe. I have never been able to accept what I was hearing about God, heaven and hell etc.
So, now, with my access to the internet I have found that there are millions more out there that
have the had the same problem with religion that I have. I have found this very encouraging and now I don't feel alone in my thoughts.
Your Pal,
Farris
I left out some details like the christianschool that I attended until I was eleven or so. And some other stuff that explaines the thought patterns that screwed me up so. I also have to apologize for the poor spelling(some people get agitated reading it). After twenty some odd years of trying to forget a thing I guess I inadvertantly trained my brain to flush away certain usefull things.
Anyway I hope my story helps someone else in some small way.
Your realization that god was not going to do anything was a great one; the one that saved you from real insanity.
What I don't understand is that many honest christians I know agree with me that god will not act in these situations, or as I add, in any situations for that matter. They quote the apostle Paul as saying that he had sins that god would not deliver him from, and thus they don't expect god to deliver them from their situations today. So why do they hang on for so long, still believing and trusting in a god that does nothing? That is my question.
All I can figure is that christianity has turned into a religion that does not have an active or powerful god, but is a religion that can do nothing better than to explain why god doesn't do anything. But they can't seem to see that there is no difference between the god they say is active, but does nothing, and no god at all.
Hang in there on the recovery. It's a bumpy ride.
Thank you for sharing your story. I am a 33-year-old female. I was molested by older brother as well. It began when I was nine and ended four years later when I finally told my school guidance counselor, who in turn told the resource officer, who in turn called HRS. That's when shit hit the fan with my family. My mother had us all sit down after dinner and have a little "talk". She asked my brother, he denied it, and that was that. I too, was expected to forget it. My mother would beat me many times over the next year and ask me how I could lie about my brother that way. I didn't have the problem that you did with being antisocial, but I overcompensated by compulsively lying to make friends. No one at school really liked me despite the fact that I was an attractive child. I had no friends, and I dreaded going home after school.
Like you, when I became a Christian, a loving relationship with God and his son eluded me. Despite all my efforts to hear from him and to feel his presence, silence was my only reward. I began to do some intense research and the result was inevitable: The Christian God and the Bible was a LIE. So where did that leave me?
My husband was horribly raped by his father when he was a teenager and he was a Christian too. We tried to help eachother heal, but we always felt God telling us that we loved eachother more than we loved him so what did we do? We broke up. NOTHING is to come before God, right? But after two and a half months, God's presence never became any more tangible to either of us and so we both in our own way walked away from the dogma of "faith" and found eachother again. Now, I have a constant companion. Now, that we've both stopped depending on a nonexistent God, we are beginning to hear the sweet sound of peace in our minds.
Now, we laugh more, cry less and have stopped blaming ourselves for what our abusers did and for not believing in a God who was as elusive as the tooth fairy.
Lance said:
"All I can figure is that christianity has turned into a religion that does not have an active or powerful god, but is a religion that can do nothing better than to explain why god doesn't do anything. But they can't seem to see that there is no difference between the god they say is active, but does nothing, and no god at all."
Fucking exactly!
"Now, that we've both stopped depending on a nonexistent God, we are beginning to hear the sweet sound of peace in our minds."
Thanks for shareing.
Why is it that christians can't seem to realize that some people are happier in their nonbelief?
It is true that God doesn't give a crap, but it's not just you. He doesn't give a crap about anybody, because he doesn't exist. I'm glad you're getting your head out of the nonsense the church used to delude and confuse you. It will all become clearer.
Stronger Now, Nvrgoingbk, I wish you strength and patience in working through your hurts and your recovery.
What is confusing you? I can make some guesses; probably something to do with how the church teaches people not to trust their own logic and reason.
You said something about leaving the faith that is based on things you can't believe. But those in the church say you must believe god's word and you can't trust yourself.
We say trust yourself and the logic and reason you have. If there is a god, s/he gave that logic and reason to you and probably expects you to use it.
Check out Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason." That is some great stuff.
Also, tell us you story, or if you already have, let me know where your testimony is on this web site.
Regards,
Lance
Because Christians are taught that outside of Jesus, there is no such thing as true happiness. That's how a cult brainwashes people.
The very thought that there are people out there who are happy without Jesus in their lives just absolutely kills christians. They would rather see us unahappy because it would prove their false beliefs that nobody is happy without Jesus.
Christians claim that we're really not happy, and that we're fooling ourselves, putting on an act, and satan has deceived us, but it's the other way around.
They are mad and pissed off because we found happiness outside of Jesus, and they can't.
I am making a lot more progress with my life, ever since I turned my back on christianity.
Back when I was a "Bible Beater", and was in church all the time, I relied on God instead of my own ability and logic, and as a result I had no success in my life whatsoever.
Then I told God to go screw himself, and I walked away from the church. It's taken awhile, but I was finally able to start taking charge of my life again, and that's when I started making progress again.
Every success I have ever had in my life was due to my own effort, and abilities. Not God.
The anger that I have today is due to the fact that I wasted so much of my time and life serving a mythical god and listening to other fanatics. It got me nowhere, and I pretty much wasted my life fooling with Christianity.
No matter what any christian says to me, or what scripture they quote, I will not return to the christian faith.
If God wants me back, then he will have to make himself real, and prove that he is real, and that he is fair and just. He will have to do the right thing. No amount of scriputer or no sermon is going to bring me back.
So all christians who read this, might as well shut the fuck up. Tell your so called God if he even exists, to do the right thing if he wants some of us back.
I guarantee he will not do the right thing, because there is no such thing as a personal loving God.
I'm sure that a lot of christians would tell me, "You don't tell God what to do".
That answer would just prove even more that God doesn't give a shit about me or anyone else.
I had to make a correction to my last post. I meant to say the words, "ARE WRONG".
I need to start proofreading my posts.........LOL!
To succeed under one's own power is a delight and a thrill. It's especially poignant when the success comes after a failure, or after challenging painful and deeply rooted fear.
Personally, I'd rather struggle for every last inch of ground than trust in some invisible being to sort everything out for me when it finally gets around to it (or not).
i appreciate your story. one of my room mates expressed that losing religion was a very tough thing for him as well, he's basically come to the same conclusion. He laughs, is happy, seems to treat people well and is progressing in his life.
general-
it's nice to see encouragement coming from other people as well. I am sorry that God, or christianity doesn't line things up for you. I'm a christian myself, but come from a similar background. I was molested at a young age too. I am trying to learn how to forgive as well, and my girlfriend is having an even harder time. I propose a thought. What kind of being would it take to create everything we see, think , feel, taste, smell? I think it was bertrand russell who said in response to (what will you say to God if he does exist?) that "you didn't give me enough evidence." although, if he did create everything...then he actually gave enough evidence. Think of it this way, God gave you just enough evidence to believe his existence, and just enough evidence to not believe...if he prooved it to you...you would have no choice but to 'serve God' but you do have a choice.
but what can I give God? the answer to that is simple. nothing. If God exists, and he created everything then there is nothing you can give him. that is, except your love. The same way that you can't force your children to return your love...God cannot force you to love him, or "prove" his existence. It would cease to be a choice. God is asking me for my love and trust.
I freely choose to love and trust in God. I can't rest in my own power...I can't even do 50 pushups in a row!!! I have no power.
if I skip a meal...i feel weak. some people say that humans are strong...but i disagree. try going three days without eating, drinking water, try to stop breathing, thinking, feeling. trying to not do these things might only intensify the need to do these things. "but that's biology", that's true, and God is the author of Biology, and physics, and reason, and emotion, justice, wrath, desire, love, anger, wrath, hate, vengence etc. do you ever feel these things? if you answered yes, then you might just be made in the image of God.
i'm not bashing you. i'm bashing the rationale. the same way that if respond to me with reason, you won't be reasoning with me, but reasoning with my reason....at least i think so. any thoughts?-philip
Cute sentiment that I'm sure you heard in some sermon, but it has flaws. Supposedly Adam and Eve didn't have any choice but to believe in God: HE kept taking little strolls in the garden with them.
The mythological Devil and his fallen angels have no choice but to believe in GOD as well. They don't like him, but they used to live with him in heaven, right?
And why does your god need barely evolved simians to worship "serve HIM?" Would you like to have a crowd of microscopic amoeba worshiping and serving you? And if some of those amoeba didn't believe in you, would you keep them alive forever in a sadistic prison where they'd be tortured unceasingly?
That analogy is apt. If your GOD is all Christianity claims, there is absolutely nothing we can do to harm this Almighty God of yours. The whole idea of HIM being so pissed off by being ignored that he would dish out eternal retribution is... well, that's quite a shallow god. The whole idea reminds me of a mean little kid frying ants with a magnifying glass -- just plain cruel.
"...if he did create everything...then he actually gave enough evidence. Think of it this way, God gave you just enough evidence to believe his existence, and just enough evidence to not believe..."
If.
If the bible is true, then god answers prayers.
If the bible is right about god then he will give us our needs if we ask it of him.
If the god of the bible existed then he would have helped me, some how, some way.
If he would have done the smallest thing to ease my pain I would still believe in him.
If he gave a rats ass about me he would have done something to keep me near him.
Phillip, He gave me nothing. He created nothing. He can't do anything. By not sticking to his "word" he gave me more than enough evidence for his non-existance.
And tell me, where in the bible does god worry over proving his existence? One guy got a burning bush that talked to him. Another guy got a talking ass. Others got angels. Others got disembodied hands writing on walls. Others got to hear his voice and see visions. I could go on.
All I needed was a little comfort. Was I asking too much of him?
Not according to the bible.
Let's see if I follow your reasoning here. You phrase it as an "if-then": if god did such-and-so, then something-or-other. I think I agree with you. But your logic can also be applied in other contexts: perhaps more than you anticipated. For example, would you agree with this:
If Zeus created the universe, then he has provided ample evidence that he is god.
Now, please note that this is a conditional statement (an if-then), exactly as your statement was. In other words, assuming the premise to be true, would you not also be inclined to accept the conclusion? Here's another one:
If my pet turtle, Fred, created the universe, then he has provided ample evidence that he is god.
Agree? If so, then we can get straight to the interesting part: What evidence exists that god/Zeus/Fred created the universe? For the sake of pushing this discussion along, I'll start by positing that there is as much evidence for Fred creating the universe as there is for Yahweh creating the universe; in fact, probably a bit more, as Fred clearly exists. What say you?
It reminds me of a story about a turtle who "on his shell holds the earth". To quote stephen king.
So I suspect fred is more than he seems.
All bow to fred!
Think of it this way, God gave you just enough evidence to believe his existence, and just enough evidence to not believe...if he prooved it to you...you would have no choice but to 'serve God' but you do have a choice.
Philip, according to Christianity its not a choice, its a test. If you serve god you "pass" and go to heaven, if you don't serve god you "fail" and go to hell. Its an attempt to divide the human race into winners and losers. A real choice would mean having several good options without a threat hanging over your head.
so. if I take a test? do I not have a choice to pass it? Believing in God wasn't an issue with adam and eve...according to the text anyway. it was obedience that caused problems. why obedience? does any of you that have kids desire for them to obey you? Are there consequences to thier disobedience that they don't know about? for example; touching a hot stove, you would say don't touch it...and if they still touch it, they get burned.
the text doesn't answer why God loves creation, does it really matter? but maybe it has something to do with our likeness. as I mentioned before. we feel all the same emotions that God feels. That is called a likeness. He also designed humans to stand up on two feet. I'm not sure if any other mammal has a balancing device in thier ear like ours. i think that almost all mammals in a resting position will go to four limbs. or balance with a tail, or rest on a tail. Maybe he loves us because we remind him of HIM. someone typed an interesting thing about God being cruel...and....are humans not cruel? selfish? angry? Love, caring, patience, compassion, self-control all seem to be taught emotions. Try having a child and just expect it to love you naturally. A loving child wouldn't wake you up crying, throw up on your shoulder, cry when it's hungry...a loving child would understand that you will give them food when it is time, and that you need your sleep so crying isn't a good thing. I'd say most children are pretty selfish. why do you think children cry when they are born? because birth is painful. try shoving yourself through a flexable opening that is half the size of your head and see how happy you come out.
okay, so zeus created the universe...I believe there are people who worship zeus, but are there writings that people claimed that zeus wrote or inspired? I'm not saying there aren't, i'm just asking.
The reason I use the word if, is to engage thought. but i'll put it more straightforward if you like.
God of the bible exists. He created the universe. He asks for obedience. (you either obey, or you don't, again...choice) that being said, God has been merciful to all of us. It's kind of a catch 22 if you will though. Because if God just starts destroying people with storms, earthquakes, plagues, lightning bolts and what not...people would say, a loving God wouldn't do this, therefore I don't believe in God. Or if he just lets people kill children, rape men and women, bomb each other, steal from each other, make fun of each other...then people would say a loving God would deliver his people from themselves, therefore there is no God.
May I also present to you that american christianity is so far wrong that God can't even heal people here. although he still allows minds to learn and create medicine for our ailments. I'll point out a thing that Luke? said in the text. Jesus went to his hometown to preach and could only heal a few sick people and he was amazed at thier lack of faith.
pssh...some all powerful God!!! couldn't even heal his own neighbors!!! but it is because of a lack of faith. forget that one said two angels and the other said three, all accounts said the tomb was empty.
Stronger Now, God is not done with you yet. Maybe God wanted you to forget about all the rules and just trust him...I think he's saying, dude, get rid of this religion...it will make you miserable. He did answer your prayer, you are stronger now, you are getting through it, God is still involved, using people that hate him to encourage and build you up.
do you know how much more fun it is to watch creation when you know that God created it? why an ant, will walk in several different directions within the same square foot...but no! a perfect God would make an ant walk in a straight path, because then it's less energy or something dumb like that. do I need to point out that God cursed man, woman, and creation in genesis? The world is not perfect, it was at one time...but then it was cursed, and why was it cursed? because adam decided he wanted to make his own choices....and then he blamed it on the woman. I'm sure she felt loved at that time, you know, being blamed for causing him to disobey.
i'll close with this. If you can't believe the first sentence in the bible..."in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" believing the rest is gonna be like trying to convince yourself that you don't exist.
your friend-philip sorry if I didn't answer all the critiques...i'm trying.
You're not quite getting it - did you ever choose to fail a test? If you were presented with two doors, and you knew heaven was behind door number one and hell was behind door number two, would you choose door number two? Choice is deciding whether you want to buy the blue car or the red one. This Christian "choice" is like saying if you buy the blue car you will be happy and live forever, or if you buy the red car you will be tortured for eternity, now which one do you want?
"i think i get it....
...Because if God just starts destroying people with storms, earthquakes, plagues, lightning bolts and what not...people would say, a loving God wouldn't do this, therefore I don't believe in God. Or if he just lets people kill children, rape men and women, bomb each other, steal from each other, make fun of each other...then people would say a loving God would deliver his people from themselves, therefore there is no God....
..He also designed humans to stand up on two feet. I'm not sure if any other mammal has a balancing device in thier ear like ours....
...He did answer your prayer, you are stronger now, you are getting through it, God is still involved,..."
No you don't get it. You don't see anything you don't want to see. According to the bible your god destroyed the whole earth whith a flood, save for a few things on a big boat. So To say he doesn't do these kind of things is a lie. And people kill, rape, and bomb each other every day on earth and your imaginary friend does nothing to stop it.
As far as designing humans to stand on two feet, well, birds have done that since before they evolved into birds.
He never answered my prayer. I got stronger because I had to. The alternative was institutionalization. It was me, me, me, all me.
Your god, according to the bible, only has our best interests in mind (i.e., he wants us to be closer to him) So please, tell me, how could it be in my best interest to go to hell,Since that's where I'm headed according to the bible.
I want credible evidence of your gods existance. Otherwise, how am I supposed to beleive you.
Remember, there is just as much or more evidence for fred the turtle being the creator as your god.
I should also point out that God is not worried about proving his existence. He just is. I AM, is what he called himself many times. an interesting word because it has no past or future, but infinately existing. or as jesus put it. I was, and is, and is to come.
remember that I don't claim that my arguments are without flaw. Let's bring this up. Why (in an argument) do both parties point out the weak points in a persons logic and do not give praise to the logical and good points? we latch onto the weak and try to rip the other persons to shreds. both of our arguments are going to have flaws...we're human. The bible over the years may have changed. Hitler's writings may have changed, aristotle, darwin, plato, alexander the great, c.s. lewis, brad pitt, abe lincoln, george washington. but let's look a bit deeper...where are the bible's consistencies? you might say there are none...but I disagree. here's a few off the top of my head. people always fear God in scripture, God resists the proud at heart, God gives grace to the humble, repentance is talked about continuously, justice is always demanded.
I should point out that God doesn't need simians to serve him, he wants us to. why? because he made us in his image. why? because he's God and can do whatever he wants to do.
Also, the living God does not send you to an everlasting hell. After a long life of telling God that you don't love him, need him, or want him...he grants your request. he honors your choice, and will pull his spirit away from you. apart from God, there is no life. there is no light and there is only fear.
Have you ever walked down a dark alley and felt a knot in your stomach? That is hell, a complete lack of security, complete fear, and utter loneliness. Hell, most likely will not be a place where you see other people's spirits burning for eternity...it's a place of absolute darkness and loneliness. you will run for days screaming that someone answer you, but you can't hear them, see them or touch them. and why is it a place like that? because my whole life I spend saying...no God, it's me me me me, i cause my mind to think, my lungs to breathe, my heart to beat, my tongue to taste, my eyes to see, ears to hear...the thing is...that you don't do any of those things. they just happen.
So God says "i get the picture" it's you. I love you so much, that I'll honor your choice and it can just be you you you...
let's backtrack a bit about the murders and natural disasters. I never said those things weren't happening. the truth is that those things happen and people use it as an excuse to not believe in God. but the God of the bible says that these things DO happen...which is why you need me.
Did you know that there are christians around the world that are being healed from diseases? why is it not happening in america? because there is no faith here. the gospel has no power here because people don't believe it to be true. they just want to build thier 6 million dollar buildings and wear "christian" jewelry, and be "good" people, and use thier religion as an excuse to ignore or hate other people....but here's the beauty of it my friends. God will judge them too! He's gonna judge all of us. I'm going to be judged for the way I handle every person i talk to, type to, think about and so on.
you know that less than 2% of american christians share thier faith with other people on a regular basis? if they REALLY believed that they were saved from eternal seperation from God, don't you think they would be telling everyone they know!!!???
i'm sure there are translation errors, and factual mishaps in the text...but the heart of scripture is SO consistent. This was a book that was written by a supposed 40 different authors, over a span of 1100 years! and the same thing rings true...sinners need God. it says it again and again.
maybe the people on this board aren't sinners, good job!!! I know I am. so I need god, and if you are like me, then you do too. but you're not like me. i'm stupid, weak, ugly....something like that. I am so happy though. I've never been happier in my whole life. but I thank the living God for that...because it's nothing that I did.
your friend, philip
You've made some striking statements about your God's thought processes and motivations.
Do you have any idea why you think you know what your God is thinking? I mean, do you two have tea on Thursdays? Does he babysit your kids? Did the two of you used to date?
Think about it, and try to explain why you think that an ancient tribal deity exists who after several thousand years of screwing around with Hebrews ejaculated himself into a human woman so he could be a god-man, physically die for a couple of days and then rocket back to sit beside his father who is really him.
You can forgo quoting your holy book as the reason you believe these weird myths. Why?
Well, here's why:
1) I know God exists and that Jesus is also God because the Bible tells me so.
2) I know the Bible is true because the God in the Bible says so.
That's called circular reasoning. You can quote the Bible, but then you must be prepared to show why the Bible should be acknowledged as authoritative and true. If you say it is because God says the Bible is authoritative and true, then you have to show how you know there is a god and that that god is your god. And then you're back to square one.
Frankly, I don't think you have any answers for that line of questioning outside of "I just believe it, and I don't know why I believe it other than I 'feel' it is true."
You are succesfully performing mental masterbation. Until you tell me why I should believe the bible, there is nothing more you need to say. I have stated my case and stand by it. Until you give me credible evidence that your god even exists, I feel there is no point in conversing with you. In other words: You're not listening to a damn thing I say so why should I listen to you anymore?
Okay, so I stand on the Bible which claims to stand on truth. all truth comes from God.
I want to be an atheist...but there isn't any ground to stand on. because I can even believe that the ground doesn't exist although I'm walking on it constantly. So can I stand on truth? what is truth? should I ask aristotle? nietzche?(spelling?) bertrand russell? sam harris? dawkins? darwin? cupit? hawking? where do I go? I'll stop saying christianity is true if you tell me where to go. I've been to these people and there is no answer for emotions like, sorrow, laughter, happiness, anger, jealousy, love, hope, compassion. anyone can talk about how and why the world was created, but what about your emotions. The fact that you're sad doesn't prove anything...feeling is the proof...but proof of what?
what can I stand on as an atheist that won't come under scrutiny just as christianity does. are you saying that there is no truth? are you challenging the law of non-contradiction? are you talking about a one ended stick? how about an eastern philosophy of (both/and) both atheism and christianity. they are both true! why can't that have the day? I'll tell you why, because the law of non-contradiction is that which best reflects reality. How do we know truth?
I'll say that I'm wrong if you will tell me how you are right. explain why i would cry, why i have close friends, why i love, hate, why i seek, why i would laugh, why i feel pain...and I'm not talking about the physical pain of someone striking you...but the pain that makes you feel like there is some sort of cancer inside you eating you from the inside out.
I don't want to believe that I'm accountable to God. so help me.
but you cannot say, just believe that God doesn't exist...because that is just as circular as "just believe he does"
and you can't point out contradictions in the bible, because as far as this conversation goes, the bible doesn't exist.
I'm not just trying to catch you in your words like you're doing to me...if I could give up my accountability, I would.
your friend,
philip
So put up or shut up.
I can say with certainty that I know as much about God as you, nothing.
I can say that I know as much about God as the Pope, nothing.
I can say that I know as much about God as any man or woman living, or who has ever lived, nothing.
Philip,
No one knows what God is, or even if there is one!! NO ONE!!
Dan
.
Dan
It's really stunning what happens when you ask a religionist to provide some credible evidence for the invisible pantheon of beings they embrace (e.g. god, angels, demons, etc.). Often they flail wildly at everything else, trying to knock down all OTHER positions. That's precisely what you are doing, Philip, and with the same predictable comical results--i.e. a legion of ridiculous straw men.
What evidence do you have for any invisible conscious entity, Philip? Can you address that directly? If you cannot, is there ANY REASON AT ALL that we should simply take your word for it? Are those not painfully clear and reasonable questions?
i'll get to my evidence in just a few. I'm almost literally a brand new christian. I was raised in a christian home and walked away from my "belief". I would drink on occasion, smoke some pot, make fun of people, sleep with women, think that I was God's gift to women, hate men for the way they treated thier girlfriends and become jealous. I would curse america for all thier fancy churches, slogans, consumerism, rules, laws, politicians...you name it...i hated it. i don't do those things anymore...well, the last part I do...but it's a healthy hate, because i'm doing what i can to make a difference (which isn't much) I was miserable. i would still smile, but I was such a fake...I hated everyone and everything except things like, the music I made, the shirts i bought, the way i looked...i mean c'mon. i worshipped myself. now i don't. that's not a miracle...i mean, it is to me...but anyone could have looked at my psychology and told me i was an idiot.
I love people now, I laugh everday, I'm broke, but out of debt, my car and home have no a/c, but there is a smile on my face. and it's only because of Jesus.
I can't prove this.
because of my new faith, I don't have any wild stories that make God manifest. I'll share one story though. A very good friend of mine is a missionary in brazil, and he was at a meeting with some people one night. He met a woman who was scrunched down in the corner shaking while smoking a cigarette, he came up to her and said "hello sister, are you okay?" she kinda glared at him and said she was fine. he could see that she was upset, so he said "what's wrong?" she shook as she put the cigarrette to her mouth for another puff, and he asked her "would you like to quit smoking?" she said yes, and he said "can I pray for you?" she said yes. so he said to me. "so I cast out the spirit of nicotine, and she started lightly jerking, and this black muck puked out of her mouth onto the floor.....and she stared at the floor, then looked at me and said IT'S GONE! and we started dancing together and praising God"
please bare in mind. i'm not expecting this to convert you. I have lunch with this gentleman every thursday and he is an absolute joy to be around. He believes with a passion in the God of the bible and I believe his story. The old me would have kept asking him for more stories, more proof, more signs...but my proof is inside.
what have you got? instead of proving me wrong, prove you right.
basically what you are saying is "i am not a christian", and i would say "what are you" and you would say "i'm an atheist" maybe. and I would say "so you don't believe in God" and you might say "right", so what do you believe?...well, i surely don't believe in God and here's why.
take a stab at this. i say 2+2=5...and you say, that's wrong because it's not right. and I say "then what's the answer?" and you say "prove that it's 5!" because i'm convinced it's not 5.
you've convinced me that God was never there. you've proved that the bible is mythology. now answer my question. why do I laugh, cry, hate, love? I understand HOW these things happen. answer the WHY please. pretty please with a cherry on top.
your friend,philip
I keep trying to keep these posts to a shorter reply. it's not working though.
"basically what you are saying is "i am not a christian", and i would say "what are you" and you would say "i'm an atheist" maybe. and I would say "so you don't believe in God" and you might say "right", so what do you believe?...well, i surely don't believe in God and here's why."
There's no credible evidence for him. That's why.
"basically what you are saying is "i am not a christian", and i would say "what are you" and you would say "i'm an atheist" maybe. and I would say "so you don't believe in God" and you might say "right", so what do you believe?...well, i surely don't believe in God and here's why."
OR, since Philip is generalizing and assuming that ALL ex-Christians are "Athiests", we can put his question into it's proper context:
Basically, what you ex-Christians are saying is, "I am no longer a Christian", and then I[Philip] would say, "What are you, then?" and you [might] say, "I'm an Atheist". Then I[Philip] would say, "so you don't believe in Christ?", and you would say, "right". Then I[Philip] would ask, "So, what do you believe?"...and you [might] answer, "Well, I surely don't believe in Christ, and here's why:
For the same reason(s) that you don't believe in Allah, Muhammad, Amon-Ra, Odin, Buddha, and a ten-mile long list of other known deities.
Furthermore, the fact that a "belief" in "Christ" has transformed lives, says nothing about whether that belief has a referant in reality---as throughout history, people have been claiming that those "other" deities have transformed lives, just the same.
Philip, to the best of my knowledge, no one here is saying that "belief" cannot work as a placebo.
(provided we don't know the "pill" is "sugar")
That analogy is not at all apt. I am simply astonished that this is always so very difficult for believers to grasp. Here is an apt analogy for you, Philip; I hope you don't mind my putting words in your mouth, as I feel that they are very reasonable words. If you don't like them, please feel free to supply your own.
Me: "There are little green men living on Pluto."
You: "How do you know?"
Me: "My Ouija board told me. Do you now believe that there are little green men living on Pluto?"
You: "No, sorry, that's silly. I don't share your belief because it seems to be based on nothing rational."
Me: "Are you saying that you KNOW FOR SURE that there are not little green men on Pluto?"
You: "No, not at all. I've simply got no more reason to believe in them than I do in leprechauns or Big Foot."
Does this dialog make sense to you? Have I put any words in your mouth that are unreasonable? Do you see the analogy with religion? It's a DIRECT analogy. You say there is a god. I ask how you know. You say faith, scripture, unexplained events, changes your life, etc. I say, sorry but I don't see those as being evidence for invisible conscious entities, so I don't share your belief.
Do you see?
Philip: "...why do I laugh, cry, hate, love?"
These are emotional responses, so I'll interpret your question as "How did we come to have emotions if not via god?" The (partial) answer that is provided by science, and corroborated by science, is that emotions provided a distinct advantage to our species; for example, empathy assists in creating cooperative groups, and love is essential in forming family bonds which, in turn, assist in mating and child rearing. So, the short answer is, we have emotions because they increased our ability to survive and procreate. I'll gladly go into much greater detail if you wish.
The explanation that you appear to prefer, on the other hand, makes no sense to me. Presumably, you believe that our emotions were instilled in us by god. Is that a fair statement? If so, then you are "explaining" one phenomenon by stipulating an infinitely more fantastic one. What could be more fantastic than an all-knowing all-powerful invisible being who "conceptualized" all the mechanisms we have in our brains. In my opinion, the "god did it" explanation is nothing more than a "homunculus"--i.e. another version of the absurd idea that our brains function by virtue of little "people" who live in our heads. It's the ultimate passing of the buck--if you can't explain something, attribute it to a "black box" that already possesses all the desired properties and call it a day.
To state my position more succinctly, I assert that "Intelligent Design" and its variants is nothing more than a homunculus argument, only somewhat more fantastic as the proposed "creator" is actually a super-duper-homunculus possessing super-duper powers. Thus, it's specious.
Do you ever get a feeling that you have debated Philip before under a different name?
His M.O. sure looks like some of the other disciples we have seen before.
Philip. Can you define what you mean by the word God?
Philip!
Out of all the articles and posts on this website that that explain the science that has been done on how individuals were naturally selected, for emotions, empathy, love and morals, in general, during the last four billion years or so, can you name at least one that you have read?
Do you understand the term "Natural Selection"?
Dan
can I reiterate that an ideas absurdity doesn't actually make it not true, or true mind you.
dano- i promise that I've only used this post name. If you would like to end this conversation; please let me know and I will stop posting.
you asked. what do i mean by God. that is a GREAT question. and challenging. Ravi Zacharias talked about a question that he was asked in college about God. the question was "God is perfect, explain" he said that God is the only being that the very reason of his existence is within himself. How's that for circular reasoning? God, to me, is the God of the Bible. creator of the universe, Lord and King of all the earth, apart from God, there is no truth.
That does not mean that the Bible is the only source of truth. I'll present a reason for minor contradictions in the bible. because it involves real people. so let's take God out of the picture. maybe if we do that; we can finally have harmony. but you don't just have to look at religious groups to find contradictions. as humans we constantly contradict ourselves in order to evolve into the next generation, because I might not believe in stealing, but I'll backstab my way up the corporate ladder. some would say "that's just business"; but something being business doesn't justify the action. for example: you can be a hit man as a business, but you're still a murderer.
there are millions of book published about the how. the bible claims to be the WHY. Why are we like this?
I'm pretty sure I understand what natural selection is, but what is natural about it? can you prove that nature exists? are you saying that there is a natural order to things? if you can prove that nature exists, how do you know you're right? maybe your brain hasn't fully evolved yet, but you would be fully convinced that it has, even if it hasn't.
How something came to be is interesting at best. but why it came to be is so much deeper. keep searching. i'm not trying to debunk science and say it's wrong, I think it's great, but it doesn't answer why. the bible does, and the rest is just details.
i've only read a few of the articles on this site. i mainly went to read the testimonials. as i get more time, i will read more stuff.
thanks, your friend, philip
Honestly, Dano, they pretty much all start to sound alike after a while (at least to me). Not one of them seems to appreciate the difference between "proof" and "evidence", not one of them has a reasonable notion of what an atheist is, not one of them understands the difference between religion and science, and not one of them honestly accepts the burden of proof. (Actually, I'm being a bit melodramatic here--there have been exceptions to all of the above, rare though they are.) It's pretty much the same crap, over and over again.
You mean a "moot" point. No, I have assumed absolutely nothing normative (i.e. "should"). Our ancestors who exhibited a marginally greater capacity for empathy likely had a marginally greater survival/procreation rate. It helped our species survive. There is no "should" anywhere in that picture.
Philip: "...aren't you implying there is a law to stand by for cooperation?"
No. Do you understand the notion of natural selection?
Philip: "...am I cooperating with you in this conversation?"
I don't know, are you? How is that relevant?
Philip: "can I reiterate that an ideas [idea's] absurdity doesn't actually make it not true, or true mind you."
Reiterating that obvious point is hardly necessary. When I call something absurd I am stating that it is strongly counter to mundane things I/we generally all accept as being so. It's a statement that I do not accept an argument/assertion as it stands, and that it would require extensive re-wording and/or evidential support in order for me to reconsider it. As that's quite a mouth full, I prefer to stick to the simple declaration of something being "absurd". Fair enough?
Philip: "...can you prove that nature exists? ...if you can prove that nature exists, how do you know you're right? maybe your brain hasn't fully evolved yet, but you would be fully convinced that it has, even if it hasn't."
Philip, I honestly can't make much sense of what you just asked/speculated. Since you directed the question at Dano anyway, I'll step back and watch him handle it. (You're welcome, Dano :-)
Philip: "How something came to be is interesting at best. but why it came to be is so much deeper."
You're assuming that "Why" questions are even meaningful. You're assuming that there is something "deep" to them. Why do you make that assumption?
Here is a wonderful quote by Richard Dawkins that pertains to this very issue:
"At its most naive, this appeasement policy [of conceding to religion its own magisterium] partitions the intellectual territory into 'how questions' (science) and 'why questions' (religion). What are 'why questions,' and why should we feel entitled to think they deserve an answer? There may be some deep questions about the cosmos that are forever beyond science. The mistake is to think that they are therefore not beyond religion, too."
The full article can be found here.
You come here and read my testimony and ask me to prove that you're wrong about what you believe. You can't prove me wrong and you can't offer any credible evidence for you're beliefs.
I haven't tried to "convert" you to atheism. I only shared a part of my life that pointed me towards the unbelief (of the biblical god) that I have now. So what more do you want of me? What other agenda do you have other than trying to make me believe as you do, even though you haven't provided a good reason for anyone to believe it?
If you want me to believe in the bible god again, then give me credible evidence. If you want something else then state what else that something is. But please stop talking in circles.
Dan answers: The above offer to stop posting when someone like me makes a few down to earth remarks about you and your way of thinking, is pretty standard here on ex-Christian.
Very few do go away, because you are here for reasons that only a professional doctor of the mind could answer adequately, but I would guess that it has something to do with needing to be recognized, and feeling like you have worth. The same reasons by the way that I get something out of attempting to answer your, very difficult to follow, reasoning, in your posts. I would love to be the one to unshackle your mind from the most insidious cult of all time.
Only the webmaster can stop you from posting here. I can't and wouldn't if I could, because "You Christians" are what reinforces on a daily basis, my certainty that Christianity is one of the most damaging cults ever devised, and you make me feel so grateful that the creator of the universe has allowed me to be free of it.
I call the creator of the universe "Nature" sometimes. I call the creator of the universe "It", most of the time, but I would never call the creator of the universe "Bible God," like you did below, because "Bible God," is far too INADEQUATE to be considered an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator of everything.
Philip said,
"God, to me, is the God of the Bible. creator of the universe, Lord and King of all the earth, apart from God, there is no truth."
Philip said,
"I'm pretty sure I understand what natural selection is, but what is natural about it? can you prove that nature exists? are you saying that there is a natural order to things? if you can prove that nature exists, how do you know you're right? maybe your brain hasn't fully evolved yet, but you would be fully convinced that it has, even if it hasn't."
Dan responds to above: My first impression, because of your incapacity to keep coherent thoughts flowing, and not going off on a completely incoherent tangent, is that you are getting high on something and then coming to the computer to talk to us.
Naturel selection is what a whole school of scientists call the process by which life adapts to an environment and changes, by favoring mutations that are the best at procreating, and surviving.
Our intelligence became a very powerful "Survival characteristic," because it allowed us to think our way out of situations that otherwise could have made us extinct.
It is obvious that my brain isn't fully evolved yet. I would hope that man will survive as a species, and not make himself extinct, and keep evolving, but I will have to admit that I'm not very optimistic.
I mean that seventeen hundred years after the Romans pieced together a very poorly written handbook for a religion, that the Emperor Constantine ordered and needed to solidify his control over the empire, a book that has been added to, subtracted from, changed and argued about what would be included and what wouldn't for these seventeen centuries, still has the power to capture and enslave peoples minds. Christianity is an insidiously damaging mind virus.
The problem is that your God and Prophet, and the Muslim God and prophet, may jointly make our world uninhabitable. Belief and faith in mystical, magical beings is making the world a very dangerous place.
In short Philip I can say, what fear of imaginary entities would never allow you to say. YOUR BIBLE IS A POORLY WRITTEN PIECE OF TRASH!
So as long as Bible God is your best definition of "God," you will be like a baby trying to form his first sentence, which may explain why you have so much trouble with clarity of thought.
Dan
All of which I am well on the way to recovery from, but it left me with a little "clarity of thought" problem myself.
But with the help of the creator of the Universe and a lot of hard work on my part, I am getting stronger every day
Dan
As you are well aware of now, that Christians can be the most unchristian people on the face of the earth, it feels so good to be free of the virus.
I would be tempted to move to Sweden, the country that my grandfather immigrated from, if it weren't for my wife, who is one of those people who "couldn't care less," about religion, one way or another.
Her way of dealing with it, is to just not think about it, or talk about it. She is much more interested in what's happening on the reality shows, than whether Jesus was the son of God.
If I were single and looking for a wife though, I definitely would join an Atheist organization and look for someone who thinks like I do.
I consider theology, to be central to everything that's going on in the world today, and it would be nice to have a spouse whom I could discuss it with.
Dan (agnostic)
all that being said. I think I've said some really rude and assuming things in this forum, and for that I apologize. The reason I am a christian is because of MY fear of eternity. It's so hard to just throw away everything you've been taught from a young age. Is this all there is though? Perhaps you find yourself asking the same questions. It's so hard for me to see the world in motion and think "there isn't some reason i'm here"...and I probably need to worry less about answering that question for everyone else and answer it just for me right?
so I have trouble reconciling the idea that there would be no creator. could be a weakness for me. and at the same time, my faith in a creator feels weak...because I'd rather there not be one. then I could do anything I wanted. but even that I don't want, because I've done that before and it's only bought continuous small loads of heartache.
There is something special about the person of Jesus of Nazareth.(from a sermon in the 20's)
"He never owned a home. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never went to college. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself...all the armies that ever marched, all the navies that were ever built; all the parliaments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that one solitary life."
Do you think you're the first to not believe? You won't be the last either. Jesus's life is the only proof that we may have have of God's existence. There seems to be no lukewarm on this subject. You either love and trust in Jesus's teachings or you despise him for his followers. Because honestly, if Christ's followers were good people...what problem would you have? If I saw someone praying for a homeless man after buying him lunch, and then helping said man get employment...would I complain? or would I say "don't help the homeless! it's thier own fault" when maybe all they need is just one more chance.
Dano: great to hear about your recovery. My friend Bob has been recovering very rapidly from accute pacreantitis. His body was shutting down on Christmas eve 2006, and just last week he flew down to brazil to stay for a month. So, God is always working...many times we just don't know how.
we'll talk soon. i feel the debate is over, but you can continue to raise questions if you'd like.
your friend,philip