 |
 |
 |
encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
sent in by Barb
I went away to a Christian college when I was seventeen. It didn't take long to see that there were many types of Christians. I was most comfortable with people like me: people who didn't smoke, drink, dance,play cards, watch movies, listen to rock music or fraternize with the opposite sex.
I was least comfortable with the Catholics I met-- my church had told me after all that papists worshipped Mary and therefore would be spending eternity in hell. But these Catholics, some of whom smoked, drank, and regularly had sex, were also involved in the community, working at soup kitchens and pantries, tutoring low-income children, etc, things that my church had never encouraged or emphasized. My church was comprised of middle- and upper-middle class people who were comfortably sedentary in the knowledge that they were saved, and except for the occasional "outreach" to save more souls, they felt no burden toward disadvantaged people. What was required was obedience to a long list of "no-no's." What was discouraged was thinking for yourself.
There had been many things that struck me as wrong (the singular derision saved for gay people, for example), but I tried to pray away my concerns. And, like others here, when I dared ask for help, I was told that every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before-- and that Satan was causing my doubt. Praying all the harder did nothing except make all the clearer the fact that the silence was deafening. It was heartbreaking.
This behemoth of religion that had promised me safety and security began to go ass-up-- it was the Titanic, and if I truly could save myself, it would be BY myself. So, I swam to the shore of reason.
So, I spent twenty years pointedly not going to church.
Then, I found the UU church-- a place that requires nothing of me but to think for myself. Pagans and athiests are welcomed. Gay people are embraced. I have found a community of "believers:" people who believe in the goodness of all people, who don't require answers, who are OK with not knowing.
I don't know either, and that's OK with me. Christianity was safe, like straitjackets are safe. I am free from the ties that had me bound and gagged. I pity the people who remain in bondage.
-Barb
Maine
USA
Joined at 7, then 10, then 13, then 16....
Left at 18
Was: Bible Presbyterian, fundy, evangelical, born-again
Now: Unitarian Universalist
Converted because: I was told the earth was round, and that Jesus was the way
De-converted because: Christian college showed me the many faces of X-ianity
I went away to a Christian college when I was seventeen. It didn't take long to see that there were many types of Christians. I was most comfortable with people like me: people who didn't smoke, drink, dance,play cards, watch movies, listen to rock music or fraternize with the opposite sex.
I was least comfortable with the Catholics I met-- my church had told me after all that papists worshipped Mary and therefore would be spending eternity in hell. But these Catholics, some of whom smoked, drank, and regularly had sex, were also involved in the community, working at soup kitchens and pantries, tutoring low-income children, etc, things that my church had never encouraged or emphasized. My church was comprised of middle- and upper-middle class people who were comfortably sedentary in the knowledge that they were saved, and except for the occasional "outreach" to save more souls, they felt no burden toward disadvantaged people. What was required was obedience to a long list of "no-no's." What was discouraged was thinking for yourself.
There had been many things that struck me as wrong (the singular derision saved for gay people, for example), but I tried to pray away my concerns. And, like others here, when I dared ask for help, I was told that every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before-- and that Satan was causing my doubt. Praying all the harder did nothing except make all the clearer the fact that the silence was deafening. It was heartbreaking.
This behemoth of religion that had promised me safety and security began to go ass-up-- it was the Titanic, and if I truly could save myself, it would be BY myself. So, I swam to the shore of reason.
So, I spent twenty years pointedly not going to church.
Then, I found the UU church-- a place that requires nothing of me but to think for myself. Pagans and athiests are welcomed. Gay people are embraced. I have found a community of "believers:" people who believe in the goodness of all people, who don't require answers, who are OK with not knowing.
I don't know either, and that's OK with me. Christianity was safe, like straitjackets are safe. I am free from the ties that had me bound and gagged. I pity the people who remain in bondage.
-Barb
Maine
USA
Joined at 7, then 10, then 13, then 16....
Left at 18
Was: Bible Presbyterian, fundy, evangelical, born-again
Now: Unitarian Universalist
Converted because: I was told the earth was round, and that Jesus was the way
De-converted because: Christian college showed me the many faces of X-ianity
I especially liked your analogy of the Titanic. It's sinking, and all the crew members keep saying "Jesus is going to come and save us." when the lifeboats are in plain sight, ready to be used.
I considered becoming a unitarian universalist for a while, but decided to remain a lone wolf in terms of spirituality. I am a universalist though, in the idea that everyone, atheist, agonostic, buddhist, etc. will eventually be with God.
Welcome!
I agree that no religion is required, but I consider UU almost "non" religion. It's like belonging to the Lion's Club, the Kiwanis... it's a "club" for people who recognize that doing good things for others is good for oneself, good for the community, and easier to do as a group. Lots more fun, too. Thanks for your comments! And for the others' comments too. So glad to have found this. BTW, my brother, also a sentient (ex-christian, IOW) being let me know you existed, so I'm grateful to him, too. Thanks Gary!
Out of all of this brokeness I needed a crutch, so I became a Christian. I heard all of the wonderful promises that came with this and I thought wow, happier times are hear again but, one thing that I am now saddened to admit is Christianity turned out to be one dissapointment after another.
It would take me forever to go into all the hurts and pains that came with being a Christian but, most of all is the way the Christian Church treats others who can't help it when they lack faith. It was always my fault, and I have a Spiritual Problem. Like for example I use to be a member of a Southern Baptist Church here in Tennessee. I went to the pastor there who was dealing with sickness and offered to lay hands on him for prayer. He told me that he would rather have one of his deacons do it than some new member of his church. I was highly offended by his comments and went to someone in the church and complained about it. I was told, "I realize that he (The Pastor) may not have one of the best People Personalities but, he is a man, and he's not perfect, the real problem you have is with God." That made me ever more angry. I don't hate this man but, I always noticed that the pastor of this church had his little cliq. They were the Holy Rollers. The ones who were Holier Than Thou. They make me sick looking back at them. Talking about Hypocrites. One of them use to fuss at me about finding a girlfriend. Don't worry about it, if it's God's will, you'll find one, Just learn to be content with Jesus only. The same guy who told me this was married and I remember at a church service he told his wife that he loved her and couldn't live without her and he doesn't know what he'd do without her. I got mad and walked out during service about to puke.
I also saw the ugly side of more Christians who were highly involved in the church. Backstabbing, Gossip, Looking down on others who don't share the same belief that they do, and belittling others who listen to Secular (Non-Christian) Music. I got so sick and tired of this Holier Than Thou Attitude and then finally I thought that I had found my answer in Christianity.
I found a small church with a pastor who was into the God wants you to be rich teachings. I thought that I had found my niche in Christianity. Depend on God to replace that farm that you never got, depend on God to lead you to a woman, & depend on God to get you a job, which is a story that brought me to where I am today.
Back about 3 years ago this preacher who was so annoited by the power of God prayed for me over a job that I had interviewed for, it was a stressful time in my life when I really needed FT work bad. I felt that God knew it and it only made sense for me to get this job. I read in the Bible where God tells us to test him in Tithes and Offerings and about how we'll have so much blessing that we want have enought room to receive it. After the pastor prayed for me to get the job, he told me, "God has told me that you're the one who will get that job," We were celebrating my road back to recovery and I also that same night called the 700 Club and requested prayer and the Prayer Counselor Affirmed it with me, "You've got that job", he said so I believed because the Bible teaches that if two or more agree on anything, it shall be done.
The next day I didn't get the job. I went into a rage with the employer and made a total fool out of myself. I went back to that same pastor and expressed my anger over the situation and all he had to say was, "Well, apparently this person was out of God's will and God couldn't use them to bless you". B.S., I have never heard such a lame excuse in my whole entire life, and then later on he told me, "Son you need to understand, the kingdom of God isn't like Burger King, Have it your way, get it instantly," More excuses. I finally left church for good. I was tired of sacrificing my sleep on Sunday Morning for a bunch of hype and do's and don'ts.
I don't hate all Christians, I have met some that are caring and understanding but the church as a whole is just a stuck up Religious Social Club.
I have now become more of a moderate. I consider myself a "Realist". Some one here may disagree with me on this but, I don't doubt the existence of Jesus Christ, I just don't think that he's involved in all of our personal affairs like some extremists believe.
I believe that God has given us our on abilities to make certain things happen. It is up to us to use our own judgment to find a job, it is up to us to find our own girlfriend and use our own God Given Judgment. There are some things in the Bible and that the Christian Church teach that just aren't realistic, there are some things the Bible teaches that just aren't practical.
I even get talked down to if I even mention Realistic Thinking or anything that has to do with personal pleasure. It doesn't even have to be that sinful. I could tell more and may later on but, I will wrap it up here.
Thank you
Chad
One of the things that a lot of churches do have and can be hard to replace is that sense of belonging to a community of (supposedly) like-minded individuals. The UU church can offer that kind of secure social environment without having to march to a dogmatic drum.
Have fun and welcome.
chad, I totally hear what you're saying. It's really frustrating. I remember being around some people that even if you made a comment about getting older or having an ache or pain they would act like you were the devil. I mean, like everyone grows old and gets worn out. If they can't even admit that reality, there's no way to admit any of it. I especially used to like how everyone would make their decisions based on what "god told them to do". I always wondered why he never told me anything. It's also interesting to not how what he tells people to do most always lines up with what they would want to do anyway.
Best
advice
ever.
It's funny now, but looking back on it, I wonder why people can't have a religion without poisoning a child's mind.
I have several UU friends.
There are many free mp3 downloads here: http://www.justbegood.net/Downloads.htm
I encourage you to listen to the Rebirth(Including Questions and Answeres). I reccomend this because I have met a lot of ex-christians and semi-christians who are still unable to free their minds entirely because of the fear that has been placed in them by Christian teachings of eternal Hellfire for not believing. Reincarnation is possible to prove for yourself, and will change your outlook completely when you know this. Buddhist don't usually tell others unless they seek this, since it takes a commitment and focus of mind and lifestyle to do this, but I encourage you to at least check it out.
Past life, my goodness. Sure Consciousness has had "past lives", but no individual. Barb's gonna have to figure that out for herself over time. :-)
"And there, above the mantle, was the painting; Mary Colcannon; thief; harlot; public sinner; her fiery red hair fell to her waist, and there was no mistaking the fuck you in her enormous blue eyes. Her bosom spilled from her bodice like waves upon the rocks.
They chased her across the moors that day in May, she astride a red stallion named Azazel, with a bottle in one hand and a pistol in the other. They felled Azazel with a ball to the neck, and she rolled to the ground, laughing and cursing. They meant to take her alive, but as they closed round about her, she took aim and the leader dropped from his saddle. The volley of nine pistols tore her apart.
It was said that one of her lovers claimed her body and she was buried in a little grove of trees. On dark and moonless nights, even the wise and prudent have said they heard Mary on the moors, laughing and cursing."
I also find it ironic that the stories you hear of people who claim they have lived "past lives" most always include something about being a "King", "Queen", or "Prince" who "lived in a castle"---you never hear anyone say "I was a baglady who lived in a refrigerator box." lol.
Seriously Barb that was a great post and welcome to this site. I am saving your Titanic remark. Great Stuff.
Chad, that was a hell of a con job you feel for all those years my friend, may you never go back.
This life is it folks, we ain't never coming back.
5/23/2006 10:40
Apologies for the sleazy stupid stuff you ran into in all the churches.
Judging from your testimony, the three primary villains seem to be:
1. Prosperity teachings
2. The courtship cult (God will bring you your future spouse and looking means you don't trust God).
3. Cult-of-personality preachers (oh ick).
All three are quite unbiblical (#1 and #3 especially--#2 is merely obnoxious).
However, someone should have pointed out that Christianity is not Burger King at the beginning, so you wouldn't develop false expectations.
Christians are no better than anybody else.
Then she went on about, "well we live in a fallen world." and all of those excuses that everyone on here has probably heard, then I fired back on her and I asked her these simple questions:
1) Who tempted us? Satan.
2) Who is responsible for creating
Satan? God.
3) Knowing that we were going to
screw this perfect paradise and
Satan would be involved then why
did God not stop it?
4) And why should the whole world
past, present, and future gen-
erations be blamed for a crime
that we were not responsible
for?
Then I went on to tell her that this does not sound like a fair and just God who was responsible for the creation of Satan in the first place. I mentioned that innocent people and children are killed everyday and God stands by and does nothing about it. Then I'm told, "God didn't do these things", and then I told her, "you're right God allowed Satan to do these things and God did nothing about it." He did nothing I told her to help the innocent. It's almost like God and Satan are partners in crime.
I finally said that God set us up for the fall in the Garden of Eden, and since we are all guilty of Adam and Eve's sins then I guess the whole world should be in prison for Charles Manson and Ted Bundy's crimes. I could tell this deeply offended her and what really got her was when I said we were all just a bunch of rats in God's lab and he was poking and proding us. She finally said, "I don't want to talk about this anymore, I've got to go." I asked her, "what's the matter, can you not defend you faith?" She responded, "I just don't want to talk to you anymore". I told her that she was getting scared of the truth and couldn't handle it and by that time she had hung up.
The point I am trying to make is,I really do believe that there are a lot of christians in the world who aren't as confident about what they believe as they think they are. This is not the first time I have heard of this happening. I think what really happens to these people is they start having their doubts about what they have believed for so long and it makes them start thinking when you start breaking it down for them into realistic terms. It scares them, they want to run. I will admit the truth is scary, it really is.
From what I understand, LeVox has married the former PMOY (playable mate of the year)...So then, perhaps the more pressing and important question is 'What does Jesus think of you judging and poking your nose in other folks business?
We created God in our image.
Every regular guy wants to get his hands on a playboy bunny with big T&A.
Therefore all God ever thinks about is T&A.
Jesus is the son of God.
Therefore Jesus would approve of any guy who could get himself a little "Playboy Playmate."
Dan (Just being logical, rational, and Godlike)
Chad,
At the lowest point in my life when I was withdrawling from alcohol, I was up at 3am one fine evening shaking in a pool of cold sweat. I was at total mental and physical rock bottom. This was my time to submit to Jesus. I too called the 700 club prayer counselor line. I prayed with all my heart for Jesus to come into my life. Well as I said in my original testimony I never felt the love or the power of Jesus, but I do remember the prayer counselor loosing patience with me and ending the call. My attempt to become born again failed miserably. Despite the fact my phone session with the Rev. Robertson's organization didn't go to well they were kind enough to send me some literature with a request for me to send them a little cash.
Reference your last post here: you keep trying to deal with people's problems with religion and you keep missing the fucking point. You talk about the "sleazy stupid stuff" in the churches, stuff like the prosperity teachings, the courtship cult, and the personality cult. This might be a shallow person's notion of a problem, but it doesn't come anywhere near it.
Your religion is total bullshit to start with, and your playing the advisor and the theologian is becoming more and more comical. Why the fuck do you think you are helping matters by bringing up a few piddling details? You are dealing in drivel, and ignoring the real issues. christians do this.
Your religion says that your deity made the first parents and put them into a paradise; he put temptation in their way; they took the bait and then god made this show of anger and tossed them both out on their sorry asses.
Do you love god yet?
Then god chose an obscure race of towel-heads to be his chosen people and gave them laws like the penalty for raping a slave is lower than that for raping a free woman, and it is okay to beat your slave to death, provided he lives till sundown. Yeah, those laws are there; study your bible. This is what paul called "our schoolmaster to lead us to christ".
Do you love god yet?
And what grieves me the most is that the towel-head's deity demanded that they kill helpless animals. What kind of deity wants people to kill for no reason?
Do you love god yet?
And then god hasn't had enough killing. He wants to butcher someone in a roman exection; this poor slob died for our sins because an all-powerful god somehow just couldn't do it on his own; the slob walked out of his grave and went up to heaven where he took his place as a god himself.
AND......if we fail to believe any of this, we deserve to go to hell and fry forever.
Do you love god yet?
I sure as the fuck don't. This is the sleazy, stupid stuff you should have mentioned. Guys like Chad got involved in dipshit churches, run by dipshits for dipshits, and I kinda feel sorry for him, but we all had to learn the hard way.
If you bother to answer this, try, for once, to provide something of substance.
Just one more thing: I know the war stories of the ot and no sane person would take them seriously. These are the writings of savages and barbarians. But tell me, when did your god start loving the world? John 3.16 says that your god loved the world. Just when did that happen?
Anyway, I do find it amazing on how many people will stand up and thank a god for all the great, silly stuff in their lives. Such as Rascal Flats including Jesus’ blessing as a part of or as the whole reason that they won a made-up award. All because they can use their voices in a manner that others can’t?
Meanwhile, there are children who are in their beds praying and begging to god and jesus. They are doing this because they have been told that if they believe and take jesus in their hearts and pray, he will keep them safe. If they just believe, pray, and love him. Yet the door handle still turns and the door to their bedroom quietly swings open and the children eyes squeeze shut, tears stream down the side of their faces, and their bladders are released. And even as the blankets are being lifted, the children beg: “Please not again, please not again, please not again…”
I love it when Brigid posts. ain't nuthing better, and more soothing to the self, then hearing the real truth come out in such an eloquent manner.
Bill...still lurking still
That last paragraph you wrote describes probably one of the most horrific nightmares a human being would have to encounter; and of course it begs the question, How could God/Jesus assist "people who have" with more...whilist the most defenseless innocents are ravished by the worse evils of life. Jesus should NOT help even one human being..ever, until ALL the children are saved from ALL of the evils of their worlds forever..and ever and ever. NO Way should ANY other prayer be answered...until these are. If the others are answered first...then it is proof positive that the whole pray to God/Jesus ritual is a bunch of Bull Shit. proof positive
We have man-made laws, coming out of our sinful, impenitent hearts, which protect children. Human government does more than an all-powerful god ever bothered to do. This is self-evident; it doesn't need to be argued, that we can depend only on each other.
And bill, are you STILL lurking? Are you a wolf in the bushes, waiting for unsuspecting lambs? You won't eat me, will you?
Well that sounds all too familiar. Those TV guys are always trolling the depths of human despair for more compliant victims, all the while remaining unaccountable to any governing body. I guess the FCC is too busy busting DJ's for poopy language.
Anyhow, man, no harm no foul... what a grammy winner does on their free time is their business and no one else. I'd still like pics if possible. That includes you, too, brigid.
btw, brig, you're not implying that a government comprised of duplicitous self-serving power hungry egomaniacs is more capable of leading me than God, are you? And if their only qualified in crafting legislation, Where did that ability come from, in other words, Who gave them the idea of Law in the first place?
Are you actually saying that we need god to give us the idea of law? We are sentient beings and we have developed the idea of law all by ourselves.
Check out your bible, bc, and you will see that democracy and self-determination are not christian ideas. You may not like the "power hungry egomaniacs" that run this country, but I would sooner vote for the worst of them than for some zealot who thinks god is telling him what to do.
I cannot tell if you are serious about what you said in your last post. I think with my temper. Do tell me you were just being funny.
About the connection between law and god: I am a lesbian. Keep your godly laws away from me. I like those godless liberals just fine.
It seems that John Walsh was able to use to the government to set up some handy laws to protect children right after ‘god’ allowed Ottis Toole’s free will to trump Adam Walsh’s.
It also seems that the Polly Klaas Foundation helped to get the National Amber Alert System signed into law by President Bush 30 April 2003.
All these laws would be irrelevant if your god would protect those who can’t protect themselves.
Anyway, I see your many points and kudos to the straightjacket remark. I love that!
As to the later posts, shall I say what my mom says to me about such wonderful acts happening? We need another laugh, right?
"Well, praise Jesus!"
hehehehe....
As for the worlds population becoming to large and there being a shortage of souls, this is wrong. There are more beings in existance than just human beings. This is simple unawareness of the world you live in. There are living beings around you everywhere that aren't human. There are more than 425 million insects per acre of forest. Who knows how many entirley in our world. In fact, there are about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 bacteria and archaea living amongst us. So why do you single out human souls? Humans make up a extremely miniscule part of life in this existance. Not to mention we've only been here an extremely short time compared to all other life forms. Who knows how life first came into existance. There are theories but no one really knows. But we do know that matter in it's most basic form is just energy, so your and my energy is in human form for some reason now, but when you die, of course your energy will not. energy cannot die. Of course to try to explain scietifically it all would not work, just like before microscopes you could not sufficiantly describe microscopic life. But basically humans are a type of energy like any other life. By the way you live your life, the way you handle your energy, is how you become greater or lesser in your next material form. This is karma. So if you waste your energy being mean and destructive, or just being ignorant and in denial, this will bring you to a certain type of existance when you take on your next form, and when you focus and develop your energy, face up to your true presence in life, this will also. One goes down the other up.
But anyway, I just posted here originally because I recently met some ex-christians and became familiar to their situation, and the realization of their past lives was a big thing for them.
As for this comment by boomslang:"I also find it ironic that the stories you hear of people who claim they have lived "past lives" most always include something about being a "King", "Queen", or "Prince" who "lived in a castle"---you never hear anyone say "I was a baglady who lived in a refrigerator box." lol."
Obviously anyone can make up a story about their past lives. There are plenty books and stories about past lives and reincarnation and I would bet that at least 99% of them are frauds. They are trying to decieve gullible people for their own material gain. But of course don't believe these people. In Buddhist practice it is usually a rule not to tell others about your past life experience, esspecially non-buddhists, and it is strictly forbidden for any Buddhist monk. It is a monistic law. It would just bring about confusion and desire.
But in the end it is based on expereincing it for yourself. If you don't believe I can understand, but to say you know it to be wrong of course you cannot say. You do not know what is beyond you. A colorblind animal doesn't know color, but does it exist? Yes,but beyond that animals perception. At my level I can say for sure that color most certainly exists, as well as past lives most certainly exists.
It's all up to you though.
Ms. Buddhist, you wrote:
"What did you do yesterday Arthur? You wrote this comment. How do you know? Because you remember doing it. But was this just Consciousness? How do you know you really did and not just consciousness? Obviously you have a memory of it so you know it was you right?"
I don't agree. How do I know I really did it? I don't know that. Memories are quite unreliable, but even if I believed them to be reliable, what would I know? I would know my immediate experience of the memory and my immediate experience of the thought that the memory is trustworthy. I would still know nothing about the past. I don't believe I wrote anything. For practical purposes, in a way I would say I wrote it, but I don't consider this to be ultimately true. For sure I don't know I wrote it.
"I don't agree."
Therefore, in your immediate state of "mind", you made a decision. Now, how in the flying duck's ass, did you make that decision, without any "memory"? Okay, what, you made a decision, with "untrustworthy" memory, great, so you undermine your own comment.
"How do I know I really did it? I don't know that. Memories are quite unreliable, but even if I believed them to be reliable, what would I know?"
You'd know your past experiences, its called memory recall.
"I would know my immediate experience of the memory and my immediate experience of the thought that the memory is trustworthy."
When you recall a memory, you retrieve the "experience" you encoded at that time. At the exact same time you engage in that cognitive process of recall, you are creating a "new" experience. If you want some lite reading, look up metadata and the Dublin Core element link. Now, if you have amnesia, and aren't capable of memory recall, sure, your memory becomes untrustworthy, and your reliability to make sound decisions in a world that requires stored information looks bleak.
"I would still know nothing about the past."
Yes you would, if you had "faith" in your memory recall, and your ability to "store" information, per your own experiences. If you deny your ability to "experience" life, and store memories, then, you might as well say you can't trust yourself to make logical decisions in life, as your past memories, build your future decisions. No information, means, you have nothing to use to form even basic language skills. The fact that you are actually typing a message, shows you have information and muscle memory.
"I don't believe I wrote anything."
Ah, yes, just because you believe something, doesn't make it real, or not real, okay. Well, if you don't believe you have a past, that is trustworthy, then, the millisecond after you typed that sentence, it totally lost all credibility as being verifiable, thus, your statements hold value only at the quanta level, and alas, since we don't overtly engage in decoherence as a means to interact with information, your statement becomes - meaningless, faster than we can give you credibility.
"For practical purposes, in a way I would say I wrote it, but I don't consider this to be ultimately true. For sure I don't know I wrote it."
Uh, according to your, I can only live in the immediate present, and there exists no information storage in the universe, i.e., absorbable matter, etc., you can't know "anything" for sure, even your own statement after you make it. In short, you introduce yourself to a new yourself every planck second.
Perhaps, you are joking, I mean, that statement had to be sarcastic - right. It mocks yourself, well, I suppose the earlier self, as you really never have a self-understanding.
I suppose that makes you totally "detached", a true buddhist approach to nirvana. I can see detachment from unnecessary stressors in life as being a good thing. However, in order to maintain sanity, one "must" anchor themselves to something, thus, there can't be total detachment - memories suffice for being that anchor.
Perhaps, I am missing the buddhist philosophy, can Mr/Ms or any other buddhist please enlighten me on the correct Dharma, well, if this isn't sarcasm or some joke, thanks.
Before I trapse off, I just read your post. Are you suggesting that you didn't rationalize your belief? If you don't have rational thought, then, your thoughts become absurd, and are reflected in your words. If you do rationalize your beliefs, in order to convey logical communications, like you are attempting to do in your post, then, it appears you are engaging in the act of self-punishment and suffering.
I read a little further, and notice you get into energy and life forms, this is the ultimate form of rationalization, do you find that thinking on such matters, is "painful", or causes "suffering"? Are you presenting buddhist philosophy as the light the Buddha would have portrayed, it, or are you going along with the "no one can really know the past anyway", and thus, really never be capable of relying on the written word of "anyone", to include the Buddha himself.
Why so much illogic, the elegance of life, is that its all one, but even within the "one", one must realize their entanglement, with past, present, and future. To live in just the present, may be emotionally safe, but not physically safe. On a maslow pyramid, that means, a person living according to this philosophy must sacrifice the physiological layers, in order to attain the maximum emotional levels. There are behaviorists that would disagree with that philosophy, as the emotional needs do rely, even if only a little, on the lowest levels of physiological need.
I suppose, if someone were able to totally remove their physiological needs to the extreme, it would be called "death", and thus, I suppose that would lead directly to "nirvana". Is that how the philosophy works?
Xrayman, it's funny that you shared your testimony with me because believe it or not, the very first time I stumbled onto the Ex-Christian Site, It was your testimony that I first read. No joke! It reminds me of a thought that entered my mind the other day before I got involved in the Cultic Practices of the Christian Church. I had more successes in life depending on my own abilities. Thank you for providing your testimony once again to help me to remember how successful I was before getting involved with Christianity.
As for "brigid", I read where you said you kind of felt sorry for me. I do not want anyone feeling sorry for me. Like I mentioned to Xrayman, I knew what it took to succeed in life once before and I will do it again. The only thing left I can say is, it does take awhile to get all of the brain washing out of your head when that's all you've been exposed to for 12 to 13 years. It is hard letting go of those Cultic Teachings. I'm sorry if my testimonies of my debate with other Christians has bothered you. My main reason for doing so even though I knew that I would never change their beliefs was to take my anger and dissapointment out on them for spreading lies.
That's it. Take care.
P.S. I always post Anonymously because I haven't felt like getting around to completely registering.
I've read several posts on here and some of you have done an excellent job but, however I am going to mention one name on here that concerns me and that person is "Brigid" I have never seen such hostility in my whole life. You are defeating the purpose of this. Instead of being warm, you are being downright offensive,critical,and hateful to certain people on here.
I know that you have a right to express your opinion but, what you are doing is making the rest of us look bad. We don't need to set a bad example for people who are new in here. I think the problem is more than your belief system, you are an angry person who needs to take An Anger Managment Course. Someone must've hurt you real bad and I am expecting to get jumped all over by you. Please try to act a little nicer in here. Let's show these Christian Idiots that we can be loving too.
First I want to adress arthur's comment saying that you don't know what you did yesterday. I am not trying to be mean when I say this, but you are just fooling yourself! You know for sure the comment you wrote. If you didn't know you wrote that comment the other day, you wouldn't have even responded. Why do you think I was refering to you and not someone else, unless you know you made the comment and no one else? Even in a dream, you can be someone else in that dream, and when you wake up you know that you were that person in the dream. Wether the dream exists or not is another thing, but you know for sure that you became someone else in that dream because you experienced it. Yes, philisophically you could question wether or not past reality actually exists, but experiences you cannot question becuase they are exactly what make you who you are. They are the only real thing. If you did not know for sure your experiences of memory then you would never be able to function. When you woke up today Arthur, how did you know how to get out of bed, brush your teath, use a computer, drive, eat, talk, or question what I am saying? You do know.
And to vipassana who said "I suppose that makes you totally "detached", a true buddhist approach to nirvana. I can see detachment from unnecessary stressors in life as being a good thing. However, in order to maintain sanity, one "must" anchor themselves to something, thus, there can't be total detachment - memories suffice for being that anchor."
I agree with you about needing an ancor and detachment from unnecessary things being good. But it is not about detachment really. I think this is the kind of thing that a lot of people try and fail at. Trying to detach themselves from things. They think that when they do that then they will not have to worry about the things anymore. But the idea is not really try to detach, but to be aware. This is because of what you said about needing anchors. If you focus on being aware rather than detaching, the detaching will effortlessly come to you the more aware you become. Like a baby should not try and detach himself from his mother comfort and attention even though it is an attchement. This attachement is helpful for the level of awareness of the baby. When the baby grows up a bit, and becomes more aware, he will be able to loosen from his mother and go off on his own. So of course there are good attachments and blind detachment can be very damaging. In fact, I think Christianity can be like this in a way. Many of you being ex-christians, you may remember a time when having your belief was helpfull for you, or at least know someone who it has been helpfull, but then later it becomes harmfull.
Also vipassana, this notion of having certian attachments can address your comment: "Are you suggesting that you didn't rationalize your belief? If you don't have rational thought, then, your thoughts become absurd, and are reflected in your words. If you do rationalize your beliefs, in order to convey logical communications, like you are attempting to do in your post, then, it appears you are engaging in the act of self-punishment and suffering."
Why did Buddha bother to teach others when he knew that teaching is a meaningless attachment? This is very simply the act of selfless loving kindness. Yes, this is not really helping the Buddha, but the buddha is not trying to avoid anything or to detach from things. The main goal is to be aware. So when I said "You can spend your entire life trying to rationalize what you believe in, but that will only bring suffering." I just ment that if your goal is based on actively seeking answers and proof outside yourself you will always end up failing to find what you really want, like if you based your belief of reincarnation from the RAMTHA lady xrayman mentioned, or based your hope of salvation in some event that was said to have happened in the passed. Of course you can use rational thinking and it's very neccessary to live and avoid confusion, it's a helpfull attachment in our world. Of course I could spend forever trying to rationalize this and then of course there would be no end.
And you have never seen such hostility? Stick around, cutie, you aint seen nothin' yet. And you should have said "never HEARD such hostility". Aint you never had no learnin?
You said I was not being warm; that I was being.......what did you say......I was being "offensive, critical, and hateful". Look, shit-for-brains, we do not ask for evangelists to come wandering in here, okay? Nobody here invites the fucking campus crusade to come slobbering in here to pant out their jesus saves horseshit. No, I am not warm. I am "offensive, critical and hateful" and I am getting worse every day.
And let me ask you who the fuck started this? Hmmmm? Who started this shit about how sinners need to go to hell? Who wrote romans chapter 1? Who made people like me into freaks and perverts? Do not ask me to be "warm". No, by all the gods, I am not warm. Why don't you tell the xians who come in here to be warm? Why do you not tell them to accept us as who we are instead of preaching a bunch of shit that died out with the roman empire? Why don't you tell them to not be "offensive, critical and hateful". Don't tell us, asshole. We didn't start this fight.
If it turns out there's a fifth post, hopefully it will have a conclusion that's coherent and relevant to something. If the crux is that Buddha is "God" and "reincarnation" is the way to "enlightenment"---well, I can't envision too many people here who have already given up one irrational belief, replacing it with another. Shalom.
1) Your posts serve to blatently reinforce any Christian notion that Freethinkers, Atheists, Agnostics, etc.. like ourselves, are somehow posessed by demons, angry, and not at peace within ourselves and from the point of view in which we comprehend existence.
2) This in turn hinders the cause, this site, the anti-christian/religion movement. It reflects poorly on us as a whole, and if you are truly as angry as you claim, I doubt that you would want to aid the Christians in making us look bad.
3) It is just plain immature and rude. If you truly are as pretentious as you appear on paper, I wish you the best in gaining the experience in life to overcome that hangup. If you are simply being difficult because the internet is a security blanket and you have fun rubbing everyone the wrong way, I wish you the best in finding a more creative and useful outlet for your energy.
***crouches and heads for cover as the EXC-BRIGID missile drops from the sky***
Hope you don't mind if I reply to both of you together. You had similar objections, I think.
It was not a joke. I just differenciate between what I view as the ultimate truth or what I can really know and day to day life including the illusion of a personality. On the latter level you are right, on that level I know lots of things and base my decisions on that knowledge. Ultimately, however, there is no "me", meaning an independent entity that does things or is ultimately responsible. This is not "true" Buddhism, it's Zen Buddhism or mysticism in general. Talking about it can get confusing because of the two levels which lead to seeming contradictions such as pathless path or gateless gate. On the one level you do things, on the other level impersonal experiences just arise to nobody. On the one level you remember the past, on the other level an experience of a memory arises in the Now (for nobody). Only the second level is ultimately true. I live my life on the first level of course, it cannot be lived anywhere else, but try to remember the existence and ultimate truth of the second level at the same time. It's not hard to see why you will often hear teachers of nonduality say this cannot be spoken about. All I'm really saying is that what I truly know is that Experiencing is and that I see no reason to believe in responsible "agents" that created themselves. In other words, all I'm saying is I don't believe in free will like Brigid, and apart from that I think Descartes was wrong saying "I think therefore I am". He posited that as self-evident but it's not. Only Experiencing is self-evident.
Laughing out Loud ! This is going to be good.
I think the word detachment has a much Buddah connotation. However, I can see how removing "unncessary" attachments in life, by becoming "aware" of destructive behaviors, such as envying or coveting in such an avaricious manner, that it "consumes" a person, and they "lose" balance in life...
Many that become consumed, attempt to exert a lot of energy, trying to project their influence into the "future", eventually, enough energy spent on such matters can emotionally, and physically bankrupt a person.
The wisdom, is awareness, but also detachment. Information fills our lives, it runs through our neural processors, if a person gets caught in a loop, and they refuse to exit, well, it appears they run the risk of burning up the motor. If they don't burn up the motor, they have little capacity to process new information, as they sit in a perpetual neural spinning hour-glass (computer analogy).
When a person, can become aware of these type looped thoughts, and they accept "awareness" as a legitimate function, they can "detach" themselves, awareness becomes the exit function. Its amazing, however, the number of people who run these type of nueral loops. One could surmize there are many reasons for this type action; environmental, heredity, etc.
And, yes, christianity as taught in much of its doctrine, does push people into this type of thinking process - a never ending logic loop, circular reasoning, that never has an escape. As a matter of fact, "fear", social isolation, etc., is used to ensure no one attempts to establish the validity of the "exit" function. Curiosity is the natural function we have, that persuades us to get beyond such loops, as curiosity pulls us to ingest new experience and knowledge... however, natural curiosity can be quelched with yet another stronger primal aspect to humanity - fear.
It would seem to me, that even though a person is aware of their environment, it many times becomes very "difficult" to determine, where dead ends and loops exist. Its why so many people are caught up in religious doctrine in the first place. Each of us have a threshold for running loops, in regards to information discovery, and information processing.
Once our threshold is met, we begin to seek new information, and to build more "awareness". Seminaries are noted for teaching, how to keep logical loops in play. Each time a person discovers an answer, the theologian associates that "answer" or "awareness" to that which can not be "known", thus running a "new" endless loop.
On Buddah, I suppose one could consume themselves even in Buddhism, and perpetually ask themselves "what would buddah do?", that would not seem to be a healthy alternative after leaving one endless loop.
Perhaps, some of the sayings of Buddah are food for thought, but with thought, one must process it, store it, and use it to make sense of the greater picture.
Someone mentioned, reincarnation. Reincarnation in itself, can be seen as a "loop"? Its hard for me to accept "loops", as having a valid function, unless there is a product for each iteration. I really don't accept the wash machine method for soul cleansing, as, talking about soul in an illogical sense, leads to nothing less than a loop itself, the same with "consciousness", unless its brought into the realm of knowable information, and "awareness", else, even that topic becomes a discussion of endless loops.
Okay, its beginning to make more sense. And, as much as I agree with some of your insights, I am still drawn to categorize our reality - call it the only way I can communicate effectively, as "forms" seem to be necessary when discussing such matters. This appears to be the crux of the communication barrier.
Do you suggest that "true" reality, is a formless matter, yet, everyone lives in the form to experience formlessness?
Do you believe in independent thought? Or, do you attribute independent thought as nothing but the byproduct of the true formless reality? There is a difference.
There is all that there is, but then, there is the combination of the pieces within all that there is. Do you believe reality is a "synergy", where the sum of the pieces of our categorized reality, become "more" than the whole - consciousness? Or do you believe, the pieces make the whole, no more and no less, i.e., a conscious entity does not exist, etc.
I see, you explain that free will doesn't exist, because Nature, Is, Consciousness, etc., is dominant over our lives, thus, we are truly not in control of our destinies. In the bigger picture, perhaps, I can see your logic. However, you pick a flavor of ice cream from the store, there are many options to choose from. Although, it could be said, that there were a finite number of selections, and thus, there wasn't truly "free will" in an infinite sense, a person still had "free will" within his finite understanding and awareness of his "immediate" reality, no?
I think it hard, to discuss matters in the "whole" other than in ambiguation.
Can a person in a "finite" world, with only "finite" information, create a conceptualization for an "infinite" entity, such as "true reality"? One could speculate, that you are only choosing between the few "finite" options are are available in our limited understanding of the "true" reality. The cosmological ice cream store, may have only given you a few flavors of ice cream to choose from, just because you are in the store looking into the glass case at the ice cream doesn't mean you have an "awareness" of the size of the store, or the other flavors that you can't see at the other end of the counter, because of limitions of visibility.
To say, Is, exists, i.e., the ice cream store exists, etc., makes total sense, to say, one knows all about the details of "Is", in every detail, makes the claim that someone is omniscient.
I agree with your dislike for Descartes' statement "I think, therefore I am". I see it as, "I am, therefore I think". Even more, I see, "I am, therefore, I store information about thinking, by placing my information onto objects, to include my own brain, hence, the ability to think about ones' thinking.". Without some form of projection, we would never have survived as a species. Albeit, projecting ones' own internal information onto another verbally does get annoying, in an emotional sense.
I can see what you're saying. In effect, we (ex-Christians) must portray a polished image of the non-Christian side of life, thereby making for an inviting occasion for the fundie to cross the line, jump aboard, or whatever metaphor seems fitting.
However, many ex-Christians (including me) continue to be angry over their "pilgrimage of lies." And sometimes tearing into another individual, albeit verbally, is sometimes frankly the only satisfactory method available.
Think of the colossal deception that is being perpetrated the world over! Religion is essentially the biggest bottle of snakeoil ever sold!
Yes, I agree with you -- it's best to be civil, courteous, and Dale-Carnegie-like; however, sometimes people (e.g., Brigid) aren't out to "win friends and influence people"; sometime they just need to vent the painful poison and hurt feelings that have plagued them for who knows how long.
Besides, if there is no "grand purpose" or "design" to the universe, then who ultimately cares if we're all non-theists and in a nice little unified group? We'd just argue about something else (like politics and taxes).
The "conformity factor" of organized religions is one of its oppressors. As we've come to realize religion for what it is (namely, a farce of pandemic proportions), let people be. Sure, Brigid's caustic technique will hurt our ability to "convert" believers to "our side." But ultimately, so what?
Don't get me wrong here -- I'd love to see Religion peacefully eradicated from the earth -- where reason-based societies rule in freedom.
But, to attempt to "correct" Brigid right now, where she is, having experienced the pain she has and does, I think is not worth the potential converts we'd allegedly get if she were civil in her dealings.
The woman needs to vent. Let her vent.
Thank God for this site (pun intended)! God only knows how the churched-people are so oppressed in their stodgy congregational ways that the only way they can vent is to quietly backbite and tear eachother apart.
Who knows? Maybe an oppressed religionist will see us openly venting the full wrath of our frustrations and anger and think, "God, I would love that sort of freedom of expression!" ... and then convert to "our side."
If Christians are offended at us, so be it. May we be free to express ourselves.
Respectfully,
Salvatore
Do you suggest that "true" reality, is a formless matter, yet, everyone lives in the form to experience formlessness?
Well. I would put it this way. The formless and the "formful" are one. No individual lives in the form to experience formlessness, but the One, the Unmanifest, manifests as forms in order to experience Itself.
Do you believe in independent thought? Or, do you attribute independent thought as nothing but the byproduct of the true formless reality? There is a difference.
If you mean by independent thought that someone owns thoughts, no. Thought itself, as everything else, IS the One, not a byproduct.
There is all that there is, but then, there is the combination of the pieces within all that there is. Do you believe reality is a "synergy", where the sum of the pieces of our categorized reality, become "more" than the whole - consciousness? Or do you believe, the pieces make the whole, no more and no less, i.e., a conscious entity does not exist, etc.
No synergy. There aren't even any pieces. Consciousness can't be divided into pieces.
I see, you explain that free will doesn't exist, because Nature, Is, Consciousness, etc., is dominant over our lives, thus, we are truly not in control of our destinies. In the bigger picture, perhaps, I can see your logic. However, you pick a flavor of ice cream from the store, there are many options to choose from. Although, it could be said, that there were a finite number of selections, and thus, there wasn't truly "free will" in an infinite sense, a person still had "free will" within his finite understanding and awareness of his "immediate" reality, no?
It may seem like free will to the individual, the reason being that the individual doesn't know the future.
Can a person in a "finite" world, with only "finite" information, create a conceptualization for an "infinite" entity, such as "true reality"?
No, one can call it all kinds of names such as the Unmanifest or God, but it can't be conceptualized. That's what the 2nd commandement (no graven images) may actually be about.
One could speculate, that you are only choosing between the few "finite" options are are available in our limited understanding of the "true" reality. The cosmological ice cream store, may have only given you a few flavors of ice cream to choose from, just because you are in the store looking into the glass case at the ice cream doesn't mean you have an "awareness" of t