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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
sent in by Jeff
Well, I've been reading through this site for some time now and I figured I might as well put up my anti-testimony — if not for anything else but my own sort of closure to Christianity.
I was born and raised in a "uber-church" one of those gigantic churches that doesn't claim any denomination and people have to meet in small groups to even get any sort of community going.
Anyway, I was a Bible-thumper from the get go. I remember being in 5th grade, bringing my bible and trying to convert people; I even had my own little hellfire speeches. This pretty much went on throughout my entire school years — I was always known as the Jesus freak or that crazy Jesus guy.
This all changed though, and ironically enough, it happened when i joined the army. Once I went through basic training I was almost forced to meet with people of other views and to get along with them. I couldnt just start preaching to somebody, telling them their going to hell, because these were the people watching my back, and I respected them.
Well, after I got out of the army I was already everything my former Christian self hated: I was an alcoholic, I was a womanizer, cursed like a sailor, the whole bit. Well I figured it was time to get back to my roots and try to be the Christian man I used to be, but something unexpected happened.
When I came back to the church I used to go to, just about everyone shunned me. I guess somehow my old drinking and casual sex stories had gotten back to them, andhey didnt like it one bit. I was all but told to leave by the people there.
This was when the doubts seriously began. I tried several churches in hopes that maybe it was just my old church that was like this, but for the most part I had to face it: for some reason these people that I used to call friends had heard that I was living in sin and now wanted nothing to do with me.
So I started to research my own faith, thanks in most to this site. But I was as impartial as I could be, reading this site and then going to Christian sites to see what they had to say. When it all came down to it I have come to believe that Christianity is nothing more than a country club, as long as you believe what they believe and show up to the meetings, everyone loves you. But, the second you start to waiver, you're gone and hated.
This was my starting reason to leave the faith — everything else just sort of fell in place after that. Since then Ive become a Deist, but the thing is I'm not complety stuck on it; I'm still studying other things, as I am sort of new at this. For 22yrs I did nothing but study the Bible, so now it's strange to be learning about other faiths deemed Satanic by the Christian culture (hehe).
Well, thats my speil. I hope you enjoyed it. It's not the most awesome anti-testimony ever, but hope it helps somebody in some way.
Well, I've been reading through this site for some time now and I figured I might as well put up my anti-testimony — if not for anything else but my own sort of closure to Christianity.
I was born and raised in a "uber-church" one of those gigantic churches that doesn't claim any denomination and people have to meet in small groups to even get any sort of community going.
Anyway, I was a Bible-thumper from the get go. I remember being in 5th grade, bringing my bible and trying to convert people; I even had my own little hellfire speeches. This pretty much went on throughout my entire school years — I was always known as the Jesus freak or that crazy Jesus guy.
This all changed though, and ironically enough, it happened when i joined the army. Once I went through basic training I was almost forced to meet with people of other views and to get along with them. I couldnt just start preaching to somebody, telling them their going to hell, because these were the people watching my back, and I respected them.
Well, after I got out of the army I was already everything my former Christian self hated: I was an alcoholic, I was a womanizer, cursed like a sailor, the whole bit. Well I figured it was time to get back to my roots and try to be the Christian man I used to be, but something unexpected happened.
When I came back to the church I used to go to, just about everyone shunned me. I guess somehow my old drinking and casual sex stories had gotten back to them, andhey didnt like it one bit. I was all but told to leave by the people there.
This was when the doubts seriously began. I tried several churches in hopes that maybe it was just my old church that was like this, but for the most part I had to face it: for some reason these people that I used to call friends had heard that I was living in sin and now wanted nothing to do with me.
So I started to research my own faith, thanks in most to this site. But I was as impartial as I could be, reading this site and then going to Christian sites to see what they had to say. When it all came down to it I have come to believe that Christianity is nothing more than a country club, as long as you believe what they believe and show up to the meetings, everyone loves you. But, the second you start to waiver, you're gone and hated.
This was my starting reason to leave the faith — everything else just sort of fell in place after that. Since then Ive become a Deist, but the thing is I'm not complety stuck on it; I'm still studying other things, as I am sort of new at this. For 22yrs I did nothing but study the Bible, so now it's strange to be learning about other faiths deemed Satanic by the Christian culture (hehe).
Well, thats my speil. I hope you enjoyed it. It's not the most awesome anti-testimony ever, but hope it helps somebody in some way.
There's a lot of it about!
I felt the same on discovering that there other ways of looking at religion, othere philosophies, those called Satanic by Christians. If it's true and all us Free Thinkers, Deists, Atheists, Agnostics, those who don't buy into the crap any more are on their way to hell it's going to be a lot more interesting than 'think what I think' heaven!As for you trying to convert people from being young (5th Grade is about ten eleven, isn't it? Excuse me if I'm wrong)well, you were taught it was right from the start, and as soon as you got free(joined the army)you learnt about real life and reality and not the silly fantasies you were brought up with.
All the best, anyhow.
Do you also believe in a heaven and a hell? Do you think Satan is a reality? You have still got a way to go. All religions exist to have some sort of control over mankind.There is only one truth and that truth is atheism.
I've never believed in Bible thumping. I just believe in the Bible.
You believe the bible god who
committed genocide over 50 times?
The bible is the worse part of christianity.The hypocrites in the church are simply victums of the written word!
That being said, I'm a bit confused as to why you were so disillusioned to discover that your old Bible-thumping compadres did not receive you with open arms after learning that you had become the epitome of sin. I mean, c'mon bro, what the hell did you expect; you just seem incredibily naive to anticipate a warm welcome back into the fold while reeking with the stench of hedonism...lol.
Nevertheless, I'm delighted that you've finally learned that church members, despite their "spiritually-correct" persona, are merely a glorified form of high-school cliques.
Jim, my friend, why the disparaging cross-examination? As a negative atheist myself, I almost have as much disdain for positive atheists, such as yourself, that preach the "TRUTH" of atheism, in a manner just shy of outright Bible-thumping, as I do for Bible-thumpers themselves. Atheists are suppose to occupy the intellectual high-ground compard to relgionists, and adopting the same degree of fanatical exlusivisim is not conducive to such. In addition to realizing that evidence for the traditional, biblical picture of God is largely lacking, most atheists become atheists precisely becausd they realize that "TRUTH" is not a choice between two sides of a black and white, epistemic coin. On the contrary, they concede that "TRUTH" is on a continuum between an epistemic white and an epistemic black. Philosophically, your "you have still got a long way to go" attitude contributes the stigma that atheists are pretentious elitists. And besides, if I understand the purpose of this web-site, it is not a conversion mill for atheists; rather, it is meant to provide a support to those that are trying to recover from the aftermath of Christianity, regardless of whether or not they embrace your personal "TRUTH", Jim.
Everyone in that church has backslidden or has a few skeletons in their closet.(But Not, Saint David!)
I dispised organized religion for the longest time. Just a room full of hypocrites is all it is.(But Not, Saint David!)
"Whenever you look to(man)for guidance you will be disappointed. We screw everything up."
A man and many men wrote the bible, yet you look to the man written book for guidance.
David, your paroted cliche's are not valid according to your man written bible; (Just ask him to reveal Himself. I came to a point in my life where I just said "Lord, reveal Yourself". He will.)
The Gospel According To St.John, ch 1 vs 18, "No man hath seen God at any one time." Now you're telling people god will reveal himself to them and the bible plainly states that no man has seen god at anyone time, so who are we supposewd to believe? You or the bible? Or neither one?
David: I'll be praying for you.(Why don't you just boil some water, at least water turns into steam.)
David is the perfect example of what all religions represent, an elite self-boasting, self-annointing, self-preservation into holywood.
Not one person on this planet is born with a knowledge of a god, it is brow-beat into us by our parents, we're under some form of control even into adulthood, until you're ready to face, that you're alone in this world, you are the only god you'll ever know.
"A man and many men wrote the bible, yet you look to the man written book for guidance." What is your point here? What difference does it make if men wrote the bible. All it is is a historical account of things that happened. The Lord can still use it to move in you and speak to you. He can use anything, He could talk to you through you "Alpha-bits" if he wanted.
"The Gospel According To St.John, ch 1 vs 18, "No man hath seen God at any one time." " That is true. You know, you can't see gravity either but you see it's pull. You know it is there. He will "reveal" Himself, His intentions, His plan for your life.
Never once did I boast your say that I had all the answers. And I hope I am not coming across as advisarial with you, that is not my intent. I preach this and this alone, "Christ and Christ crucified". I was a sinner before I was saved, and now I am a sinner saved by grace. He knows I will fall before I do, and He still picks me up, dusts me off, and waits for me to fall again. Christianity is a journey, not a destination. Call that a cliche if you will but there it is.
Anyway, to "From Bible-thumper to a Deist" I say I will still be praying for you. And for "Ben", I'll boil some water, and then pray for you.
God Bless
When you say you will pray for us, please don't. It makes you look like a person who has been brainwashed by the Christian meme. It's a very silly concept.
http://www.christianitymeme.org
When you see someone praying to a snake, you will think it's silly, right? When you see people praying to a cow(or Allah, Osiris, Krishna, etc) you will think they are silly, right? When you say you will pray for us, we think you are being very silly.
May Jealous bless you too, David.
To Jim: Thats smooth that your an Athiest, i did study that as well but i guess its just the optimist in me that wont let the concept of God go, i dont believe in the biblegod, just the off chance that perhaps thier was a God, Satan no I've grown beyond that, heaven and hell, i dont believe in hell but heaven is a nice thought again most likley the optimist in me haha.
To David: the passerby is correct when people say they will pray for me it annoys me to no end, and frankly when i used to be a christian it annoyed me as well hehe.
To Chad: i realize now it was kinda naive to expect the bible thumpers to take me back, but at the time i was truley naive and i figured theyed just view me as the guy most of them had grown up with but needless to say i found out just who my friends were and who they werent.
And thats about it, thanks for the support and i hope all goes well for all of you,
Dan (Rationalist)
When someone says I will pray for you, it means I will talk to myself about you. So this means that God is really you talking to yourself. This is the reason so many people think it is a god talking to them, a perfect example would be David.
God exists only in the living conscious brain, after death, all thoughts that anyone has accepted as true, will immediately disappear. Then the sceptic will say how do you know this. It's because when you go to sleep or unconscious all thoughts of god and jesus and things you've been taught since you were a child, all disappear, this is proof within itsself.
David said:
I preach this and this alone, "Christ and Christ crucified". I was a sinner before I was saved, and now I am a sinner saved by grace. He knows I will fall before I do, and He still picks me up, dusts me off, and waits for me to fall again. Christianity is a journey, not a destination. Call that a cliche if you will but there it is.
He said this, he said that, he, he, he, David you're just repeating something you've heard, had you never heard or read a bible, you would not be mimicking garbage that you've heard.
And you're sinning as you write back to us, why? because you're breathing? Once you stop breathing and are dead you will officially stop sinning?
How foolish can people allow themselves to be?
A man crucified on a stick saves sins, get real David! is that entirely possible? apparently not.
David you're talking to yourself and calling it from god, is that sane?
First post here and already ruffling a few feathers, you'll fit in nicely. :)
Thanks for sharing, keep reading and researching on your own, its what most of us do around here. You will find your own path that makes the most sense to you, whether its a Diest, Agnostic, Atheist, or whatever. We'll try and keep you away from those pesky xtians though... :)
Uh? Unless you do not agree that the ENTIRE bible is the word of your god, then you are correct.
Here goes:
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved
Exodus 33:11: And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend....
Those are just a few, but let's look at the verse you posted:
John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Side note: [the word "one" does not appear between "any" and "time" as stated in your post.]
Anyhow, "God the only begotten son" does mean Jesus, right? John 3:16 also refers to Jesus as the "only begotten son," correct? So is this saying no one has ever seen Jesus? I rest my case. Guys, there you have it - proof that the entire Gospel is a hoax...no man has every seen Jesus…lol.
David, keep posting your dribble in here so I can rip ‘em to shreds.
Later
The source of god is your brain, your brain is communicating with your inner self or itself. Your brain is analyzing the information it sees and hears and what it has seen and been told to be accepted as truth. Language and speech is accepted and learned behavior, no one born in America has to read a book to learn how to speak the English language, it is taught by mimicking and repetition, just like a belief, it is learned behavior by mimicking and repetition, then it is memorized. The information that you receive by your parents, preacher, authority figures, is weighed by your brain as to whether it is valid or not, but since we've all been under constant rule by authority, we are afraid to challenge this information in fear of retribution or punishment or a threat of eternal damnnation.
God is only a concept, taught out of fear and ignorance, as long as humans accept fear and ignorance as legtimate norms, god and religion and urban myths will always be an accepted part and belief of society....so sad for the future of humanity.
I found this site about a week or so ago and ititally was interested to see what some of you ex-(insert religion here)ists had to say. I was moved to tears by some of the testimonies of those who have been betrayed, lied to, or mislead to a point where they just gave up. No matter what side of the fence you are on, Christian or otherwise, you have to admit that it is tragic.
But reading the posts of the other members of this “Community of Believers”, or NON-Believers, it is apparent to me that you and your fellow “x”-ists are virtually no different then the Christians you persecute. On this site we have a group of people who share similar beliefs, who congregate in a certain place (cyber-space) and discuss, encourage, and edify each other. That sounds a lot like a church to me. And you all immediately assume that anyone who holds an alternative viewpoint is wrong. What really amazed me is that all of your beliefs require the same amount of “FAITH” as the Christian beliefs you so obviously abhore.
“The source of god is your brain, your brain is communicating with your inner self or itself. Your brain is analyzing the information it sees and hears and what it has seen and been told to be accepted as truth.” These are your words. Can you prove any of what you say? I would love to see your published works or any other evidence you can offer. And the conviction in which you speak these words is so evident. It just drips off every sentence. You truly believe what you’re saying. But you are also equally unwilling to even listen to or consider another point of view. In my opinion you are no better than the “Fundies” you persecute.
I am trying to be totally objective in my assessment of the situation here. If you don’t agree please reply. But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much. “This is our view, all others are wrong”. Totally exclusive like all other hardcore religions. In all my posts I never admonished or belittled what anyone said, but pretty much everyone said I was being self-righteous. I just don’t see it. Take a good look inside at your character and your choices. Much of this site talks about other people; “I left the church because of this” or “I know Christians who do that” so Christianity must be wrong. Whatever. Take a good look in the mirror, objectively, and honestly and tell me what you see. I’m looking forward to it.
Later.
And as far as faith, non of us ex-tians believe in faith, if god is real to you, why do you need faith?
Faith only gets in the way of your belief.
David:
I would love to see your published works or any other evidence you can offer. (just go back up a few posts and you'll see my published works.) So this tells me that only published works holds the infallible truth, according to David.
And the conviction in which you speak these words is so evident. It just drips off every sentence. You truly believe what you’re saying. No,I do not believe what I am saying is true, I Know what I am saying is True, there is a big difference.
What I write on here, is totally self-evident, if you were not so brainwashed you could comprehend my posts, many on here do comprehend what I write, and most also agree 100% and I also with them.
David:
But you are also equally unwilling to even listen to or consider another point of view.
Listen David, I've considered your religious and fundy and fake jesus for 35 years, jesus is dead and he thought he was coming back in his diciples life time, read Mark ch 9 vs 1. I really think 35 years of believing fake nonsense is more than enough time wasted on a lie, fairytale, myth, hoax, con, fraud.
David how many years and how many lies will you have to hear, before you figure out it's all bullshit?
As far as persecusion (ha ha big belly laugh!) the old stand by fundy excuse, David I can imagine you're about 21 years old and call home to mommy every night or still live with your parents.
David, I stepped on your god, and your make believe jesus, and it threatens your childhood beliefs and emotions, it's time to grow up little boy and face reality, I know you do not want to, because you will have to cut your jesus umbilical cord comfort zone, or you can continue to live in your delusional baby jesus thoughts and live in a stupor of santimonium the rest of your life. Time to get real David.
Let me tell you about myself. I am 27 years old, married, and recently adopted a six year old girl. She was a distant niece that we rescued from DCF (Dept. of children and families). I have lived alone since I was 17. My parents never approved of my Christian beliefs and we still don’t see eye-to-eye. Needless to say I don’t call her every night. I also OWN (no mortgage) the home that my wife and I live in and I rent out another house nearby. So I am not living with my parents. I have been a struggling Christian since Sept. 2nd, 1994. I am not struggling with my faith but just the day to day living as a Christian and trying to live by Christ’s teachings. Not easy as you know, but well worth it in my opinion.
Despite what you have said, I do consider other view points and interpretations. Just because I do not agree does not mean I do not listen. Maybe you do not see the difference but there is a difference. A big one.
I did not become a Christian because of some childhood fear. I was not raised in a Christian home and never feared hell. I really didn’t know anything about it. I came to the Lord when I was 15. I have fallen away twice, both times rebuking the Lord and prepared to never return. And both times, after finding nothing in redeeming in other religions, in myself, or in this world that satisfied, I prayed. I asked God, if He exists at all, to prove it. To show me, to let me know He was there. He did. I have been delivered from more trials and tribulations than I can recount.
What has your beliefs gotten you? Are you happy? Are you content? You sure don’t sound it. Perhaps this is only my 27 years of youth speaking, or my lack of real world experience but you sound downright miserable.
You don’t NEED faith you say. You have faith in more things you realize. You have faith that God did not create the universe. You have faith the sun will come up tomorrow. You have faith in evolution (I assume here). You have faith there is no God. You have faith in a lot of things you can’t prove. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that something does not exist. But somehow you can.
I have no problem comprehending your posts. It is not hard to recognize or understand what you are trying to say and get across. I get it! I just don’t see the fruit in what you are doing or saying.
It may be wrong to make those assumptions about you in the above paragraph. I don’t know you and made judgments based on your posts. I apologize. But rest assured my “Jesus umbilical cord” will not be cut. It does not shelter me from the world, or reality, I gives me strength, focus, and hope. As far as a comfort zone; I haven’t found one yet. I am in a war zone everyday, in the mission field. More clichéd analogies, I know, but it’s accurate.
Everyone on this planet thinks what they believe is right. One day we will find out who was correct. Good luck.
Oh, what is with that other post that says “Removed by author”? I think I may like to see what you posted.
Later
Uhm, Dave, that's not exactly how it works.
Those who make fantastic claims (invisible gods, angels, devils, etc.) have the responsibility to present evidence proving those fantastic assertions. If someone tells me that every night Big Foot comes to their house for dinner, I'd have every right to doubt them until they presented some tangible evidence. If they told me that they could provide no evidence except for a feeling in their heart, well, I don't think I'd believe them. Would it ever be my responsibility to PROVE that Big Foot is NOT coming to their house for dinner?
By what you're saying, my unbelief would be tantamount to boldly declaring that there is no Big Foot and then you'd saddle me with the responsibility of proving it (Big Foot) wasn't true!
If I do boldly declare that there is no such thing as Big Foot, it never would fall to me to prove my disbelief. It falls to those who say, "THERE IS A BIG FOOT" to prove that there is such a thing.
Do you believe in Zeus? If not, why not? Can you PROVE there is no Zeus? Do you believe in Allah? If not, why not? Can you PROVE there is no Allah?
You dogmatically said, "everyone on this planet thinks what they believe is right." Do you believe in UFOs? I don't. I've seen no evidence of UFOs, so I don't believe in them. Many people do, however. People believe all kinds of wacky things. Invisible gods, angels, devils, and flying undead man-gods on sticks sound like wacky things to me.
When you can present some verifiable evidence that your invisible friends exist, then we could have a logical exchange of ideas. In the meantime, all you are doing is spouting mythology and accusing everyone else of having faith in -- well, faith in NOT believing in your myths.
I have faith in not believing in your god? Does that even sound right?
While you are correct that "it is impossible to prove something does not exist," it still falls to you to prove that your god indeed DOES exist. I can say there is no Big Foot, no UFOs, no Allah and no Zeus without being required to PROVE that such things don't exist. If one day someone shows me evidence that those things DO exist, then I'll believe in them.
The same goes for your god.
Oh, and the thinly veiled threat of hellfire and judgment ("One day we will find out who was correct. Good luck.") is quite unbecoming.
For the record, there was no threat of hellfire and judgement, at least not intentionally. And for those who felt threatened or judged I apologize.
In regards to your statements requiring burdens of proof; I don’t understand the following statement you made:
If I do boldly declare that there is no such thing as Big Foot, it never would fall to me to prove my disbelief. It falls to those who say, "THERE IS A BIG FOOT" to prove that there is such a thing.
What is the difference between claiming something does not exist and something does exist. Both in my opinion would be unsubstansiated claims if you can’t provide proof either way.
The sad thing is that all this arguing and discussion ultimately leads to a dead end. One party will never agree with the other. And even if I could provide some evidence it would just be written off. Christ could walk among us, perform miracles, raise people from the dead and still people won’t believe. It happed 2000 years ago and it would happen today if he came back. And I have to admit that if Ala were to walk among us I would probably not believe it either. In my opinion, the things I have seen and experienced is proof enough for me but not for everyone else posting on this site.
I won’t try to convince you or anyone to see “OUR” side but I hope if you guys have questions or whatever, for what it is worth, I’m here.
Later
Thanks for letting me vent, I haven't even covered half of the things that annoy me about organized religion. And by the way, to the guy who just posted about being shunned by his fellow paritioners when he came back from the army, it happens in Judaism too. Thanks
Now, if you want to argue about it, please prove that there is one.
Here is how the rules of evidence works, until you PROVE there is evidence FOR something, then the invisible thing you're promoting just doesn't exist, except in your own imagination.
Before Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, everyone could boldly say "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TELEPHONE!" They didn't have to scour the Universe to prove that statement. However, once Bell invented the telephone, and presented to the world, THEN, and ONLY THEN, was there a telephone. Up until that point, the phone was only in his mind.
You really need to take some logic courses. Your thinking ability has been hobbled.
The argument is at a dead end, because you want people to accept what you say without presenting ANY evidence proving your fantastic claim!
I DOUBT YOUR CLAIM. I DON'T BELIEVE YOUR CLAIM. YOUR CLAIM IS ONLY IN YOUR IMAGINATION.
Now, you have every right to prove my doubts wrong, but I don't have to justify doubting you -- it is YOUR responsiblity to PROVE your positive assertion.
You have to support your belief in a god. I don't have to support my disbelief in a god. Do you think you should have to support your disbelief in Allah, in Zeus, in the Great Spirit? Do you think Allah is just pretend? Do you think you should have to PROVE that Allah is just pretend in order to justify your LACK of faith in Allah?
Please, take a logic course.
In fact, take two.
You and your followers still make a lot of assumptions (ie: "It's all in your imagination"). Again, something you can't prove and still believe. You've managed to surround yourself with a lot of other people who are just as stuborn and close minded as all those who you loath and disrespect show much in "THE CHURCH". You would benifit from taking the blinders off. In fact, take the ear plugs out as well.
Frankly I am bored with you. I am wasting electricity talking to you when I could just talk to the four walls in this room for free and be just as understimulated. You are wrong when you state you don't have to prove your disbeliefs, and that is fine with me. You can be wrong if you like.
Later
David, can any person on this planet be totally objective? Do you believe everyone on this planet is equal, in their genetic makeup, and environmental experiences that give us knowledge of this life?
Do you believe, that an Objective reality exists, in our universe somewhere? Can you please explain, how a person with obviously unique natures and nurtures, thus unique perceptions of reality, can possibly perceive an Objective reality as an equal to others of humanity?
Do you support the theory of general/special relativity/determinism, or are you more of a follower of the uncertainty principle/indeterminism? Why? Feel free to provide empirical examples.
David: "But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much."
That statement sounds absolutist to me, however, that's my "subjective" view, as, its obvious we all perceive our macro reality, in much the subjective manner. Unless, you want to define a few dimensions of reality, on your leisure, and tie them together nicely with some mathematical order theory, again, using some empirical evidence.
David: "“This is our view, all others are wrong”. Totally exclusive like all other hardcore religions."
If you can't support your view as a Universal Absolute, it appears your view is just a mere subjective opinion, amongst the billions on this planet, how privilaged many of us are that you grace us with your wisdom. I personally, wouldn't call your opinion, "wrong", I don't know what's going on in your mind, you obviously believe the information you hold is "true". However, if you attempt to convey your, mentally held belief onto others, as a guide, then you need to provide your belief, in a manner in which many on this site will accept your vision/truth, for me - that would be empirical evidence please. So, that I may take what you provide, and "subjectively" inspect the evidence, and create a "subjectively" laden opinion for my Self.
David: "In all my posts I never admonished or belittled what anyone said, but pretty much everyone said I was being self-righteous. I just don’t see it."
David: "But if you really look at this, this community of yours is no different than any other of the religions you hate so much."
Well, self-righteous could be perceived by us mere mortals, as you portraying "all" people on this globally expansive site, as religious "absolutists". In order for you to make that statement as a "truth", you must perceive yourself as omniscient, and knowledgeable of "all" people who view this site - some may consider that being slightly self-righteous, and even a little pompous. However, you do have that right, and every opportunity to exercise and finesse your technique I suppose.
David: "Take a good look inside at your character and your choices."
Okay, but of course, that leads us back to a subjective truth and how we perceive our reality. We are all correct in our own minds, its how we interact with others, based on our values, that appears to make the difference for many of us.
David: "Much of this site talks about other people; “I left the church because of this” or “I know Christians who do that” so Christianity must be wrong."
If Christianity, is not to be inspected by the sum of its parts - christian people and the examples they set, then, please explain how one is to measure the objectivity of christianity.
By order theory, its obvious, that you must hold that christianity is a Univesal Object, part of the set - Objective Reality. How does one perceive an Objective Reality, if they themselves are held abound, by their own subjective views in life? Would it be presumptious to say, that you have no more objective truth, than your subjectivism allows?
David: "Whatever. Take a good look in the mirror, objectively, and honestly and tell me what you see. I’m looking forward to it."
What I see, and perceive appears to be of truth to me, but as an educated person, I must concede that my views are mine alone, and they are subjective according to my unique nature and nurture. Any view to the contrary, would seem as repressive as religion in general.
If you have a thought or spark of supreme objectivity, then perhaps you can provide a detailed description of the dimensional aspects where reality is split via supremum and infimum. Then, you can present the world with a final unified theory, bridging together macro and micro theoretical physics. Until that time David, subjectivity rules, to include your subjective view of a "god" figure. Looking forward to your answers to the above questions, as I am sure... you have pondered long and hard on the nature of reality, and how you have come to be one of the elect who found an objective god, in their most subjectively induced life.
When speaking of empirical facts, there is a huge difference. Oddly, it is religionists who seem to be so keenly aware of the impossibility of proving negative empirical claims that they often use it as a brickbat against atheists, claiming that it renders their position untenable. Indeed, we see that old fallacy repeated here almost on a daily basis. Of course, it's a fallacy because atheists needn't *prove* the negative (i.e. the non-existence of some deity) any more than theists need to *prove* the non-existence of each and every OTHER deity that has been claimed to exist.
So, is that some kind of double standard, or logical chicanery? No. Positive claims, such as claims of existence, carry the burden of proof, otherwise we would be obliged to accept absolutely every loony idea to fall from the lips of every believer, which would include myriad contradictory claims. In other words, to *believe* every proposition until proven false leads to a complete logical mess. Not only would you be bowing to EVERY deity every imagined, but you would be cowering in fear of poltergeists, Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, alien abductors, and the boogieman. In other words, you would be the ultimate credulous fool, who is completely paralyzed by outlandish beliefs.
On the other hand, if you adopt a policy of reserving belief for only those propositions that meet the standard of *evidence* (i.e. *warranted* belief), then it is possible (in principle) to rid yourself of logical contradictions, not to mention a pantheon of false gods. I say that this desirable state is possible "in principle" because there is still the matter of sifting through the purported evidence and determining which is valid and which is not; a process that is, of course, subject to error. However, with dedication and practice, one can gain considerable skill in weighing evidence, thereby reducing the likelihood of error. In any case, one is clearly better off than being mired in countless contradictions, which is the price one pays for extreme credulity.
Bottom line: I have examined the purported evidence for the existence of your deity (presumably the god of Abraham), and thus far I have found not a single shred of it to be credible; indeed, the vast majority of it does not rise above logical fallacy or distortion of fact. I am therefore acting rationally by disbelieving the claims of those who say he exists. In a similar vein, I reject the claims of Muslims and Hindus. They too have failed to provide credible evidence of their deities, in my opinion.
Now, David went on to say that "Christ could walk among us, perform miracles, raise people from the dead and still people won’t believe." Which is to say, EVEN IF compelling evidence was provided, we would disregard it and continue to reject claims of the divinity of Jesus. Well, that is nothing more than speculation on your part. (Your claim that "It happed 2000 years ago" is another positive claim that is lacking evidentiary support; and seeing as how it subsumes your other claims, appealing to it is circular anyway.) Since there is no such evidence at hand, a completely valid question to ask is "Where is the evidence?". That is the first bridge to cross, and it is yours to navigate.
David then added this ad hominem attack: "You've managed to surround yourself with a lot of other people who are just as stuborn and close minded as all those who you loath and disrespect..."
David, we all make assumptions, and we all make mistakes. Agreed? What matters to me is whether a person is willing to examine both (all) sides of an issue and to continually look for ill-founded conclusions in one's own thinking. I find very few believers who are willing to do either of these things. In fact, the vast majority of them (at least among those who visit this site) simply cast aspersions at those who hold different beliefs. That is no way to arrive at something approximating truth. In fact, in my opinion, it is the surest way to sink into a pit of self-deception, sheltered by prejudice and in many cases outright bigotry.
Since no one knows exactly what put everything into motion, then no one knows what God is. Therefore any exclamations about belief or disbelief are meaningless.
If you say that God is the prime mover of the universe, then you are saying that you believe in God.
If you say that God is the bumbling fool of the Bible, and you say that you believe in him, you aren't really saying anything more than if you said that you believed in the God of any of the myriad other religions down through history.
BEFORE YOU CAN STATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, YOU FIRST HAVE TO DEFINE WHAT "SOMETHING" IS!
Dan (Rationalist)
Sorry Jeff. These "teachers" who are having their relationships with Jesus, and come here to witness to us, don't realize that they are up against people who are free of cultist thinking, and we take our teaching from the greatest thinkers of all time. Those brave great men and women who brought about the age of enlightenment, and the end of the dark ages.
I come to this website alot but I am not here because I'm anyone's follower.
I'm here because I gave up following.
I dumped all of my assumptions and I'm starting from scratch.
This website has kept me from going down many and varied wacky paths, because it has kept me on my toes in demanding proof and continuing to question, to doubt - and not to just 'follow'.
You say you weren't happy with other religions and had to turn back to bible-god. Maybe you just don't like to think too hard?
It's easier just to follow.
You need to get out of the 'follower' mentality, of "Should I follow this, or that religion, no, I'll settle for this one..."
When we don't accept what you say to us, and don't just nicely follow along, you say you're bored.
You don't want to tell us what your expeiences were that proved to you that bible-god exists.
So we see that it's too hard for you to justify what you follow because it would take thought, and facing up to questions.
That's too much for you.
Jesus is the 'good shepherd' and you are the good and faithful sheep.
Do you ever think deep enough to realise that the only reason a shepherd protects and guides his sheep is so that he can use them for his own purposes later on?
To shear them for wool, slaughter them for food, trade, etc.
It's all about control, and the man-made bible is made to control other men.
You've been had, by cunning old men from ancient times.
Good sheep.
"Obedience, Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth,
Makes slaves of men, and, of the human frame,
A mechanized automaton."
- Percy Bysshe Shelley (Queen Mab)
Both believe so strongly in thier product that thier willing to do anything to sell it to anyone.
Both see the customer as nothing more than a sale, to a christian a sale that will get them better in with gawd and the kirby guy for some commision.
the only difference i can see in them is that the kirby vacuum can actually be proven as to weather or not its a good product, (ive never bought one so i couldnt tell you if it was really as awesome as they say it is or not.)
Well i guess i just went from
testimony, to bigfoot, to kirby vacuums hahaha, just something i thought id share.
Let's start off by making pretty much everyone here angry and/or frustrated(except for maybe Dave and one or two others). "The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." Angry yet. Its ok to admit it. But if you are not, then yay!
So I’m not even going to try to keep up with some of you as far as intellectual conversation is concerned (or for that matter spelling). I've only taken one or two philosophy classes, so my knowledge of said subject is probably not up to par with most of you. But hey, we all suffer fools at one point or another! So get ready to suffer! (I'd suggest that you read this posting while thinking of Vincent Price's voice. Just makes things more interesting. And Vincent Price is cool anyway.)
I'd say that trying to prove or disprove God's existence is the definition of futility. Especially is one's own mind is already made up and barred against such notions. I cannot prove to you that He does, and you can't prove to me that He doesn’t. I think its pretty easy to see that most of us are on one side of this fence or the other. So lets just ruminate about the nature of God, as seen in most main stream religions. He's all powerful, He's all knowing, He's perfect, and He is spiritual in nature (and if you are/were of the Christian faith He is love). SO, that being said, (and I can already hear some of you pulling out your thesauruses to systematically chop me down to size) wouldn’t it be physically impossible to prove or disprove that such a being exists? If something (God) is outside our physical reality then the question is academic. There is a really interesting connection to the Big Bang here, but I wont get into that, else this posting will last forever and ever and ever.
I'd say to Jeff, who started this exhilarating dialogue in the first place, thanks!! Had he not posted his testimony none of us would have known that each other existed. Also, it sucks that you were treated in such a way by the churches that you went to (uh oh, a self professed Christian said sucks! GOD MUST NOT EXIST!!!) Sorry about that. Anyway. I cant imagine anyone in my own church acting in such a terrible way. (You can take solace in the fact that if you believe in God, they will answer for what they did to you one day. Maybe not pay for it, but answer for it at least. And if you don’t, then take solace in the fact that none of it means anything anyway. Its just so hard to stay on topic when you write this way!!!) I mean, I go to a pretty small church. I play bass in the worship band. All the bass players say "OHHH"! Ahem... Now say that one day I'm feeling pretty angry/frustrated/just ornery in general and I go on some kind of rampage and start bad mouthing everyone, disrupting the service, and just generally causing a ruckus. Hell, I could even start smoking pot and drinking again! (College was fun, wasn’t it?) I could do all that and any number of other things and still they would love me for who I am. That is the philosophy of my church. Take people for who they are and where they are at. Truly showing them God's love. Now that is not to say that I wouldn’t hear about it or get a couple of awkward stares or have the pastor and elders pull me aside for a long conversation. But outright ostrasization (sp?) wouldn’t occur. I think I'm getting off topic again, assuming that I was ever on of course. Anyway, I think it is incorrect to think that the actions of a few, relatively speaking, account for the whole sum. In my own life I've tried hard not to give people a negative outlook on God or Christianity by not screwing things up, i.e. opening my mouth and inserting foot. "When necessary use words" has been my moto for showing people God's love. I'm a little surprised I'm even posting here! But where was I... Lost my train of thought. Oh, if you take the actions of some "Christians" that you have encountered as the sum and total of the Christian experience then I think you may be missing the point. Some of you are still rolling your eyes. I can hear it. Sounds like someone twisting a fish in a jar of mayonnaise. My point here is, finally, try to separate the messenger from the message. If you have an active interest in knowing who God is and what He's about then I would hope that you would seek beyond the sour grapes. It would be like sucking on one of those wicked sour candies. Sure it bites at first, but if you keep at it you get to the sweet sweet center and all is well. I’m hard pressed not to make a Homer Simpson reference here. Must…resist… Or you can just look at the surface and form your own opinions based on your own limited experiences.
"But aren't you doing just that right now" you might say? Damn straight I am! That is what everyone on this site is doing. (see futility above). But I also think that we are all missing something. I know I did when I first started coming to this place. I'm not sure if I'm still addressing Jeff here or not. Kind of lost track of my little narration.
We all share so many things in common. Our DNA is practically the same (somewhere around 99% or something like that, maybe 95%, I haven’t been keeping track for awhile), and we all need the same basic things in life. Food, water, shelter, friends, family, a job, love, etc. (feel free to add your own). And yet we, as a race, focus on that 1-5% difference between ourselves. Maybe it is a hard wired behavior (now all the behavioral psychologists and what not are going to flame me for delving into their territory), I don’t know, but don’t you think its ridiculous? Sure I sound like some dirty smelly hippy (it sounds sorta like that to me), but do you know what I'm trying to say? If you do, great, if not, ok. I'm going to end this now. I've gone on waaaaaay too long. I'm sure most of you agree with that assessment. Tell me what you think. Oh, and just to fire some of you up again, "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." -Bertrand Russell, atheist.
So much for keeping things civil.
The "messengers" were only a small part of my leaving, and like you said this whole conversation is futile.
Also with the utmost respect i ask of you please dont insult my intelligence, you dont think out of the 22 yrs i was a christian i didnt delve deep into the "word" and look at it with an open heart. please i took that as an insult to my charactor, but im not mad at you, you just assumed,
and one other pointer, when writting big posts, please make a break every once and a while it makes it easier to read ;) i appreciate your post even ive i rolled my eyes a few times (haha)
but your still not getting my budlight (or conversion) :)
Look! A Break!! WHEEEEEEEEEEE ok. So, uh,….. right. I don’t really get what you were insulted about. Something about delving into the word… Oh! Do you mean the part I wrote about one looking past the “sour surface” and seeking God? Yeah, I can see that, if that’s what I’m supposed to see. I was just going off of the limited info I had about your ordeal. And I can relate to what you were talking about (in my own limited way at least). I left “The Church” awhile ago. Around about high school/college to be precise. I just got tired of jumping through the hoops that were being placed in front of me and acting how I thought people wanted me to act. I was also struggling with the notion that there were humans whom God had created for the express purpose of going to hell. So how could a God of Love really exist or do such a thing? Tune in later for a special report at 11!!
So I got really really tired of it all. REALLY!! And so one bright and shiny Sunday morning I got up, looked out the window, and decided that I would no longer go to church. Period. I didn’t get any flack from my family (who raised me in a Christian environment. You can all blast me for what happens later as part of a nature/nurture thing and attribute any notion to it you can think of) and I went on my merry way. Some of you, if you are familiar with scripture, could call it going “Cold” instead of “Hot” for God. But I made an effort to distance myself from all things God related and so on and so forth. I’m going to insert a break here so WATCH OUT!
There. Graceful and majestic. Like a trapeze artist flying from one perch to the next. So anyway, I wanted nothing to do with the church anymore. Props to my fam (for proper pronunciation see the movie “What about Bob”) for letting me go off on my own, by the way.
Jump ahead oh… about 5 or 6 years. A friend of mine was playing in the church band (which consisted of the pastor, his wife, and him) and the pastor + wife were out on vacation. So this friend of mine asks me to play with him, for a couple of reasons. 1. He didn’t want to stand up there by himself. 2. I play bass, he plays guitar, he needed at least some part of the rhythm section.
I had not intended to play for more than that one day. None whatsoever. I was done with church and God and all that stuff. Yet I kept playing. This church was nothing like the one that had pushed me away. NOTHING! –on a separate note, I guess this would be considered MY testimony. Which, when looked at beside the others on this site, would probably act as a polar opposite, thus canceling each other out to an emotional/philosophical/psychological/theological/and whatever other ‘als’ you can think of, grey. And what does that even MEAN?!?!?
So long story short, I’m still there. And for all the crap that others would gladly fling upon my head like so many howler monkeys (and now people will think I’m calling them monkeys, which I’m not, but go figure. Subjectivity, bites all who wield it. Is that even a sentence?) my relationship with God…. Stop laughing back there…hey!...You!...Yes you in the Red Sox hat!...Report to the office!... ahem. My relationship with God has improved dramatically. Which isn’t to say that I’m some sort of super Christian (do those even exist?), but as Dave said, its all about the journey, not the destination. Should faith appear here? Is it even applicable on this site? I mean, everyone, from Zealot to Atheist has some measure of faith. Right? Faith in a loving and forgiving God. Faith that the sun will come up tomorrow. Faith that when my check gets electronically deposited it actually gets there. Faith that the ones we love actually mean it when they say they love us. Faith that the town we drive through isn’t just a bunch of cardboard and plywood facades. Faith that we aren’t just a brain in a jar being screwed with by some diabolical mad genius (thank YOU psychology 101). Know what I mean? So I guess without faith all this talk about God and spirituality and whatnot is meaningless… Unless it isn’t. But I’m not the one to answer that, am I? I suppose that, to some degree, we all have to answer that ourselves. (Insert break here)
Wow, that’s a lot of posting right there! AGAIN! What’s up with that? Oh, speaking of backsliders (“but no one was talking about backsliders,” you might say? Well I just did! So thank you.) I’ve been humming that Toadies song about backsliders. Anyone remember the Toadies? They had that minor hit back in the nineties… I don’t remember it right now. I’m not sure what the age bracket is like in here so no one may even know what I’m talking about. But check them out. They’ve got serious overtones of Ex-Christians in their songs, which Rock anyway. Lyrics like ‘I come from the water, I crawled up on the shore,’ and the like. Look them up if you’re interested.
Last paragraph, I promise. So Jeff, as you’ve told me before, you have spent many years in “The Word”, so you know that anything I say is like water off a duck’s back. I’m not out to reconvert you. You choose your own path. Nothing I say will bring anyone, (you, him, that guy over there, or her for that matter) to a fuller understanding of God. Nothing I say will bring anyone to a closer relationship with Jesus (which reminds me of a “prophecy” I heard years ago about a time when everything will be tolerated except the name of Jesus. Naysayers on your marks, get set……. GO!). The only thing that brings people to such a place is……….
p.s. Everyone can bash Christianity and the followers of Christ all you want. Some of them deserve it, some of them really REALLY don’t. But whatever shortcomings you may find in our ways or persons know this. The central theme is all about love. And how can true, real, sincere love be all that bad?
p.p.s If you could send on over a case of Honeybrown or Amstel Light that would be SUPER! Mmmmmmmmm… Honeybrown.
By your own admission we cannot know anything for sure about God. We can't even say he is all powerful, all knowing, perfect, spiritual, or that he is love, or for that matter that it is even intelligent, so your statement below is just rumination, pure and simple.
You said:
"So lets just ruminate about the nature of God, as seen in most main stream religions. He's all powerful, He's all knowing, He's perfect, and He is spiritual in nature (and if you are/were of the Christian faith He is love)"
If you look at the nature of man, and how we got to the top of the food chain, it ain't a pretty picture, so one must question the God being perfect and loving thing.
We can only assume that we and the universe are here, and something caused it, and if you want to call that "cause," God, OK.?
This is a free country and you can call yourself anything you want. I doubt that anyone on this website really cares.
The reason most of us argue or talk to people who have labeled themselves Christians is that down through history some of the most horrific injustice on this planet has been perpetrated by people who were willing to kill others who were suspected of not believing the same things about mystical beings as the priests, and shamans who were currently in power.
We became the most powerful nation on earth because the men who wrote our constitution, wrote into it the freedom to believe anything you want as long as it doesn't hurt the health and welfare of your neighbor. Our government by law cannot consider religion as a basis for forming policy for the masses, nor can it exclude it.
We can publicly call our president a simpleminded born again evangelical Christian, and all he can do is say we are wrong. He can't even exclude us from holding a public office on the grounds that we are heathens. He must by law afford us the same rights and privileges as his bible toting friends.
Not many here hate Christians, or Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or any other believers of a mystic cult, we simply are afraid of becoming a theocracy like Iran and having some old fools telling us what to wear, when to pray, how to have sex, etc., based on how they have been brainwashed by their respective religious cult.
So call yourself anything you want, but I doubt that you will find many followers of mysticism here.
Dan (Rationalist)
The message is the result of a messenger's subjective views. To make a subjective view, more transferrable to others, perhaps the subjective messenger can provide something that can be more objectively viewed, and not absolutely objectively viewed, like some natural evidence.
J21: "We all share so many things in common. Our DNA is practically the same (somewhere around 99% or something like that, maybe 95%, I haven’t been keeping track for awhile),"
Well, and that appears to be the same results as DNA between humanity and chimps.
J21: "...and we all need the same basic things in life. Food, water, shelter, friends, family, a job, love, etc. (feel free to add your own). And yet we, as a race, focus on that 1-5% difference between ourselves. Maybe it is a hard wired behavior..."
That statement is so grossly out of whack I am not sure how I want to respond. Some people believe so strongly in self-esteem and being skinny, they actually starve themselves to death. Why? Aren't we all equal in categorized and general needs? In order for you to make a statement, you are going to have to delve into "values", i.e., life is valuable, therefore, in order to sustain life we are all equal as we need to eat to live, etc. So, J21, name a few objective values so that we can attempt to establish them accross humanity. Many religions have an outlook on life, where death becomes more valuable than life itself. Therefore, "needs", are what we "think" we need, and are as subjective as everyone else. Now, I'd argue that there are naturalistic needs that are required to sustain life, but the value of life itself could be debated, and... most religions are far less compassionate about the needs of the individual, as they find more value in some object in a transcendent reality... people are willing to die for words on a piece of paper... So, no, we don't all have the same needs, as "values" themselves are subjective. J21, you and I, are not the same, sorry... Generalizing needs, and stating that we all "must" perceive those needs, in some respect or another, is nothing short of a religionist saying a god in fact exists, therefore, there "must" be atheists... What not say, there is no factual category of god, until evidence is provided, and thus, there need not be a label of atheism... You presume too much in this reality... That's not an attack, just an observation, from a subjective view...
J21: "(now all the behavioral psychologists and what not are going to flame me for delving into their territory), I don’t know, but don’t you think its ridiculous?"
I think its ridiculous that behaviorists are lumped in with "hard wired" cognitivists, but, that's just me... So, what about those subjective values J21, care to bring any up, so that we may pull some religious rhetoric out and compare and contrast... Life is precious, but then... we have Jesus in a book committing suicide/euthanasia, I suppose Jesus "must" provide humanity with his "Objective" values... So, J21, I suppose if you don't respond to this post, you are a true believer of the bible... unless you didn't get the message, for all of those corrupt messengers...
J21: "Tell me what you think."
Its subjective, you obviously don't understand... You create your little god with your subjective views, and I uncreate your god with my subjective views... However, we both create our subjective reality from a natural source, how was it that you created a god with the same environment that I uncreated your god? I know, you didn't get past the second semester of philosophy, but... think on it.
J21: "Oh, and just to fire some of you up again, "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless." -Bertrand Russell, atheist.
So much for keeping things civil."
Regarding Bertrand, from my readings, his views are that it's impossible to delve into a Universal Purpose, without the aid of a god object external to humanity, as, we are mere humans can only perceieve individual and personal purpose, as a personal truth, with a little "p"...
Betrand, beleived that we can have personal purpose, but to jump to a Universal Purpose is tomfoolery... well, unless a subjective human wants to assume the character of an Objective god, and make statements about what a god's Purpose would be for humanity... but then, J21, that makes the person god themselves doesn't it...
In short, Purpose doesn't exist, we see from a subjective view on reality, and thus have self/personal purpose which provides fulfillment in our lives...
However, there are some authors who capitalize on the ignorance of the masses, and actually state that a person can see past their own peronsal truth and subjective perception, in order to find an "Obective" Truth, i.e., god's Purpose for life, etc.
Now, who would make such a deceiving statement...
**********************************************************************
The Purpose-Driven Life, Rick Warren, Zondervan, 2004.
"It All Starts with God. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, ... everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him.
Colossians 1: 16 (Msg)
'Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless. Bertrand Russell, atheist'
It's not about you."
http://www.readersread.com/excerpts/purposedrivenlife.htm
**********************************************************************
So, Rick, taking on the character role of "god", gives us "his" personal subjective "truth" about god's Purpose in life... Per Rick, its not about "You" and personal purpose... right... But without "You", a person would never search out "Purpose", thus, it appears it really is about "You" First, as it appears Rick has found no problem putting himself/his "You", first when making his most subjective views in a book, while touting he knows the Universal Purpose for life...
Isaiah (700s BCE)KJV bible:
"Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways." [citing God]
It appears some christians, to include authors who write to christians just can't accept that their own veiws are subjective and not the thoughts of a "god", and thus... have "no credibility" when speaking on a gods' behalf, i.e., Universal Objective Purpose, etc.
J21, it appears, you need to read a little more about Bertrand, and the bible.
But seriously Mr Price (or not, hey, if we're doing voices can I be Mr Burns? eh-xcellent...) your god is not love.
Christianity is not really about love, it's not about 'God', it's not even about Jesus resurrection
- it's about Hell.
Fear is the basis for social control - and what bigger fear can you have than Hell?
You are one of those, what I call, "one eyed christians".
Maybe you're one of Bob Schuller's 'Positive Christians'?
Same thing.
You love all the 'love' talk and dance around in the fairy dust of how great god is - yet if you're thinking of bible-god then you're greatly mistaken.
You say it's impossible to prove whether or not god exists, but that doesn't matter. What we CAN prove is that Bible-god doesn't exist.
It all revolves around love?
1 Corinthians gives a famous description of what love is supposed to be like, including this:
1 Corinthians 4:5
“…It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.”
“Keeps no record of wrongs”, it says...
Open your other eye and take a look at Hell.
Hell is not love.
Hell, as described in the bible, is eternal torment.
No getting out once you're there, no mercy, no relief, not even a drop of water to cool your tongue...
Love keeps no record of wrongs?
So, hell doesn't make sense according to it's description in the bible, because it contradicts it's own descriptions of the nature of god.
So the bible doesn't make sense.
So it can't be true.
So its description of god can't be true.
So, bible-god does not really exist.
So christianity is false.
Christianity is nothing without the fear of Hell.
What is all this love crap anyway?
I don't see love in this world, I only see addiction to things that give us a measure of pleasure (hey that sounds like a band name).
It only lasts while it gives us what we want.
I guess that is a description of bible-god's love then, since we are only 'loved' by him as long we give him what he wants.
I think the closest thing I can think of to what you mean by the catch all term 'love' is mercy.
Hell is anything but merciful.
There is no mercy in hell.
A 'god of love' would show mercy don't you think?
I don't see mercy in nature.
I only see mercy in the actions of humans.
It's rare, sure, but it shows that we humans are capable of greater qualities than the bible-god, who throws those he supposedly created in 'love' - to an eternity of torment.
So why should he be worshipped higher than us?
OK, you can go back to smoking dope and watching Simpsons now - those other control factors...
No I don’t need faith. Either I know Or I don’t know. Either it is or is not. Faith is subjective; faith is slanted, biased, prejudiced, skewed, one-sided, personal, an is individual “feelings”
David: You have faith in more things you realize.
Again, either I know Or I don’t know.
David: You have faith that God did not create the universe.
There is no proof that a god created the universe (in 6 days depending on which religion or god belief) and if you think the universe needed a “magic wand” to get things started then who created your god – one out of 8,000+ other gods. Who and what got it started.
David: You have faith the sun will come up tomorrow.
I know the sun will shine. It did yesterday, the day before, the day before the day before. Therefore, the likelihood of the sun shinning tomorrow is a 100% sure than you giving us proof of your god. I will bet my last dollar on that one.
David: You have faith in evolution (I assume here).
You do not need faith in something that is evident. Let’s look at a simplified meaning to the word evolution:
Development
Growth
Progress
Advancement
Improvement
Take out all your wisdom tooth and tell me if you will die. Remove your appendix and gall balder also. Go ahead and remove your spleen. Why do have them and at the same time can live without them? Did god have some leftover pieces to the puzzle and then just randomly fit them in anywhere, somewhere? …lol
David: You have faith there is no God.
There is absolutely no proof of one…just like the other 8,000+ that man invented. So where is this god hanging out? Have you seen it? Until someone, somewhere can put god in a “bottle” so all can see it objectively, without prejudices, then I will believe.
David: You have faith in a lot of things you can’t prove.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that something does not exist. But somehow you can.
HAH! Here I go again repeating. David, it is impossible to prove a negative. Either it exists or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t exist you can’t prove it….like your god. So where the heck is it/he/she/they? Ahhh, written on a piece of paper you say.
~ Faith is for lazy thinkers~
You said that faith is for lazy thinkers. I don’t agree with you. If you have evidence and/or proof that something exists than it requires no brain power to interpret. The evidence removes the need for thought. If a jury has sees a video tape of someone committing a crime they will convict. No thought required. The jury saw him do it. If a jury, however, is presented with evidence that is vague, for example, conflicting eyewitness accounts or inconclusive forensics, it is up to the jury to use their brains and interpret the evidence. Then they use judgment and render a verdict.
This is no different than what we see in Christianity, or other religions. There is vague evidence that God exists. Events happen that that some would call miracles and some would call coincidence. People say that they have “seen” or “felt” God; some will believe and some will say that the person is imagining it. It is up to the individual to judge based on the evidence, be that evidence concrete (indisputable) or vague (open to interpretation).
(Disclosure for the following paragraph; I am not trying to be hostile with you in the next paragraph. I am merely debating a topic with you.)
Finally, you are correct when you say that you can not prove a negative. You also stated several times that you know there is no God. Can you PROVE that? It is OK to say that you don’t believe in God based on the evidence available. But if you make the statement; “There is no God.” than you must prove it. 500 years ago EVERYONE “KNEW” that the world was flat. Today we “KNOW” that is not true. Just because someone says it does not make it true. I never said I knew God exists, I believe He does based on my interpretation of the available evidence.
Later
...but how do you know it's bible-god?
If you were raised in Iran or Afghanistan you'd assume it was muslim-god...
I belive, based on what I have read in the Bible and what I have seen with my own eye's, that is is "Bible-God". And I don't know, I belive it is God. I would actually admit that I know it is God. But since I can't "prove" it I will just state that I belive it is God. I really don't know enough about the other religions to make a strong case against your comments. Maybe it is a muslim-god. I don't believe it is and can't imagine ever believing that to be true.
You may be right in saying that if I was born in Afganistan I would be muslim or whatever. I like to think that I would see the holes in the religion and look for something else if I was raised in it. But I can't say for sure.
Later
How so? faith does not require any thinking or exploring...just accept it.
David: If you have evidence and/or proof that something exists than it requires no brain power to interpret.
Not so. When you don’t have any evidence, then you go looking for it. In your case, you retreated to faith - you stopped looking.
David: The evidence removes the need for thought.
No, faith removes the need for thought. Why? Is written down and don't question or think about it - just accept it.
David: If a jury has sees a video tape of someone committing a crime they will convict. No thought