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encouraging ex-Christians
Personal de-conversion testimonials submitted to ExChristian.Net
sent in by Angie
I was raised in a devout Catholic family. We went to Mass every Sunday, and said the Rosary every evening. I had doubts as early as nine or ten. This was about the age when I started to separate fantasy from reality. I started to realise that magic, dragons, fairy tales, Santa Claus, storks delivering babies, etc. were simply fantasy. I couldn't help but throw religion into the fantasy category.
Yet, I was confused because unlike dragons and fairy tales the adults around around me took religion very seriously. Like with Santa, I thought maybe everyone was pretending to believe for the sake of us kids. I actually asked my mother one day if God was make believe and got into trouble. Then I realised that, yes, God was real.
So, I continued go to Mass. I was involved in youth activities. I met my husband at a church singles event. Despite my good Catholic exterior, inside it all still seemed like fantasy but I kept this to myself.
My older brother, my only sibling. was a very devout Catholic. I really looked up to him. He was five years older than me and I thought he was so smart. He seriously considered becoming a priest but decided he really wanted to marry and have kids. When my brother was around, religion always came up as a topic of conversation. He believed that Christianity was the foundation of western civilization. Without God we would not have morality or the rule of law. I had thought to myself many times that if my brother believes in God and Jesus they have to be real. It's hard to explain but I thought it was all real and all made up at the same time.
My brother moved about 60 miles from home. He got married two years later to a nonCatholic (secular Jew), which was a huge shock to everyone. His wife got me a job close by, so I decided to move in with them for a couple of months until I got married. My first day at their house I noticed that there weren't any statues or religious icons around the house. I thought maybe my sister-in-law doesn't allow them.
My first Sunday I slept til noon. I was surprised that my brother didn't come and wake me for Mass and even more surprised to see him reading the paper in his pajamas in the living room. I asked him if he was going to Mass. He sheepishly said no because Christianity is complete baloney. Without even thinking, and much to my surprise, I replied "I'm glad you finally figured that out." It was the first time I admitted what I'd known all along. It's a fantasy.
I hate to say that my brother had to come to that conclusion before I finally admitted what I had known all along. But you're indoctrinated from such a young age it can be hard to admit to yourself that none of it is true. After I stopped going to church a friend of mine said everyone has doubts from time to time. It's normal. I told her yes, everyone does have doubts but only a few have the courage to take that next step and admit that the doubts have validity.
Anyway, I started doing a lot of reading after that, so now I know why the fantasy is so prevalent. My husband Luke submitted his testimony a couple of months ago. We have told my brother to submit his as well. Leaving our faith was hard at first, mainly because our parents were so upset, but today we are all happy to be exchristians.
"What really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason. Then I think that the next most powerful reason is the wish for safety, a sort of feeling that there is a big brother who will look after you. That plays a very profound part in influencing people's desire for a belief in God." - Why I Am Not A Christian by Bertrand Russell
I was raised in a devout Catholic family. We went to Mass every Sunday, and said the Rosary every evening. I had doubts as early as nine or ten. This was about the age when I started to separate fantasy from reality. I started to realise that magic, dragons, fairy tales, Santa Claus, storks delivering babies, etc. were simply fantasy. I couldn't help but throw religion into the fantasy category.
Yet, I was confused because unlike dragons and fairy tales the adults around around me took religion very seriously. Like with Santa, I thought maybe everyone was pretending to believe for the sake of us kids. I actually asked my mother one day if God was make believe and got into trouble. Then I realised that, yes, God was real.
So, I continued go to Mass. I was involved in youth activities. I met my husband at a church singles event. Despite my good Catholic exterior, inside it all still seemed like fantasy but I kept this to myself.
My older brother, my only sibling. was a very devout Catholic. I really looked up to him. He was five years older than me and I thought he was so smart. He seriously considered becoming a priest but decided he really wanted to marry and have kids. When my brother was around, religion always came up as a topic of conversation. He believed that Christianity was the foundation of western civilization. Without God we would not have morality or the rule of law. I had thought to myself many times that if my brother believes in God and Jesus they have to be real. It's hard to explain but I thought it was all real and all made up at the same time.
My brother moved about 60 miles from home. He got married two years later to a nonCatholic (secular Jew), which was a huge shock to everyone. His wife got me a job close by, so I decided to move in with them for a couple of months until I got married. My first day at their house I noticed that there weren't any statues or religious icons around the house. I thought maybe my sister-in-law doesn't allow them.
My first Sunday I slept til noon. I was surprised that my brother didn't come and wake me for Mass and even more surprised to see him reading the paper in his pajamas in the living room. I asked him if he was going to Mass. He sheepishly said no because Christianity is complete baloney. Without even thinking, and much to my surprise, I replied "I'm glad you finally figured that out." It was the first time I admitted what I'd known all along. It's a fantasy.
I hate to say that my brother had to come to that conclusion before I finally admitted what I had known all along. But you're indoctrinated from such a young age it can be hard to admit to yourself that none of it is true. After I stopped going to church a friend of mine said everyone has doubts from time to time. It's normal. I told her yes, everyone does have doubts but only a few have the courage to take that next step and admit that the doubts have validity.
Anyway, I started doing a lot of reading after that, so now I know why the fantasy is so prevalent. My husband Luke submitted his testimony a couple of months ago. We have told my brother to submit his as well. Leaving our faith was hard at first, mainly because our parents were so upset, but today we are all happy to be exchristians.
"What really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason. Then I think that the next most powerful reason is the wish for safety, a sort of feeling that there is a big brother who will look after you. That plays a very profound part in influencing people's desire for a belief in God." - Why I Am Not A Christian by Bertrand Russell
I laughed out loud at the part when you said "im glad you finally figured that out..." to your older brother. If my older brother ever figures it out, I will probably be no less patronizing.
I have a hunch that the need for a belief in a higher power, may be instinctual, or even suggest that it may even be a survival trait. Natural selection may have favored those who had a firm belief that the "Rock God or the (Fill in your favorite God---------------), was looking out for them.
I have come to the conclusion that we have a compulsion to trust or believe in "something"
The trick is to find something constructive to believe in. The Mysticism of popular religions tends to be destructive. It divides familles, and peoples, and instills fear unnecessarily into people. The feeble symbols of the devil, and hell, may scare some people into believing, but they make our lives depressing because the emphasis is on the next life, and as you and I know, it is impossible to know anything about that.
From what I've ascertained from the scant amount of reading that I've done lately, there are some pretty smart people working on the problem of what we should believe. I.E. Sam Harris, Dave 8, Jim Arvo, Madbunni, boomslang, anonymous, webmaster, and the whole cadre of posters on this site, plus an army of social scientists, and scholars. Robert Ingersoll made a pretty good stab at it a hundred years ago.
Rest assured that the absurdities of the bible ain't gonna get us into heaven, any more than the Muslim kid who blowing himself up.
If God is anything like us, he admires clear thinking and good living, and even though I am sure he doesn't fault some people for "worshiping" him, he probably would rather they use that time and effort doing something constructive.
I personally have started a new diet, and resolve to get down to a healthy weight.
Dano
Your experience sounds much like mine. Although I was not raised catholic, I was raised in a pretty fanatical type fundamentalist religion and felt just like you, I always had doubts, but because all the adults in my life believed it, I was convinced it must be true, and if I doubted it, I got into trouble too.
I have been exchristian for many years, and have never been happier. I was a lot like your brother, I just eventually came to the conclusion that it was all just baloney. It is amazing that you can live your life without all of that rubbish and be content and satisfied without the burden religion puts upon you!
Welcome, and take care!
much love and happy new years
Jamie
I'm sure you really believe you had an experience that caused you to believe. I know a guy who is convinced that he had a supernatural experience that convinced him that Islam is the truth. Needless to say I don't believe he did but I have no doubt he truly believes it.
I'm sorry that you found religion when you were lucky enough not to have been born into it. I'm sorry that your father now buys into your religious fantasies. I hope you both can find your way out again.
You have helped me thru the night. You and others like you are making a big difference in the lives of those who have been raped by the religions of this world.
Freedy
I am an ex minister who now recants the lies i told. thanks again for your input,..freedy
Now let's get this straight... He saved you on 11-6-91. Or was this the day you did your "sinners prayer" ritual? Did HE save you on that day, or did he save you back in 33 a.d. Was he crucified again? Just curious...
anonymous said: "You can have this too if you stop playing church and receive Jesus in faith."
I think you've got the wrong group. Isn't this what you'd say to a person in a different xian denomination than yours?
Stop playing church? I don't see any one here doing anything that remotely resembles playing church, save you and a few other fundies who fly around here and buzz your ear long enough to annoy you, then when we swat at them they buzz off again.
Accepting the jeez, in faith. Perhaps you can call him up schedule a personal appearance for us. I'm sure if you could do this you'd change all of our minds in one fell swope. Problem is, he won't even make a personal appearance for you, his faithful servant.
Have you ever read the story of the emporers new clothes. I know it's a children's story, but it has such a profound moral to it.
Please read that story and tell me what the moral of that story is. Okay!!
"You can have this too..."
Umm that's alright you keep it okay!! And please wrap it up in some latex before you try using it on anyone else. We don't know where that thing has been.
That mind virus you have has been spreading. Luckily most of us here have been innoculated with a good dose of logic.
anonymous said: "So, where was Jesus when the tsunami and hurricanes happened? He was and still is on His thrown being Lord to those who believe and jugding those who dont."
I suppose he was asleep at the wheel considering how many of his own followers perished in those disasters, cause he couldn't cover his mouth when he coughed. Not accounting for the collateral damage.
Noooo.... he had quite a night watching Mel Gibson on his super wide screen and rocking out to theme music on his ultra high definition 77.7 surround sound system.
Him and yahweh was passing a bhang load of that sweeeeet calamus, that knocked them into the kingdom come and the holy ghost got couch lock and sent Micheal the Arch-angel out to KFC to cure their munchies.
JC told yahweh to stop bogarting that sweeeeet calamus. And in mid hog hit it happened. The smoke from that toke expanded in his lungs and he let out such a huge cough that it blew entire towns clean off the map! That's right!
anonymous said: "Nowhere in the bible does God guarantee us physical security"
That's for sure!!! I suppose I could debate that point using the bible but I have to admit I agree.
But if this is true, what good is he now? What we have to wait till we die before he does us any good?
What? No miracles anymore, or has he done burnt too many brain cells and only does disasters now? Lost his touch over the past 2000 years, has he?
Man, doesn't he do that water into wine thing anymore? I'd like to see that one. Especially since the first time he did it, he did so in a town that was named for that.....sweeeeet calamus.
*changes to psuedo-jamiacan/ american voice here*
Yah mon, dat tasty stinky stuff they was blowin' in da' second chapta' of axe what da' holy ghost gotta wiff of and set da' whole place on cloven tongues of fire, an' everyone got so high they started speakin' all kinds of cool jive.
What was dat NEW wine dim' cats was talkin' bout? Everyone knows dat' wine's no good till it ages.
Mmm Mmm Mmm... It was a new wine of a new kind. Didn't come in no 90 proof bottle neither. An' it wasn't stomped from no foot.
It grew on a strange vine neath a glorious grove of redwoods dat' was raisin' it's branches up to heaven in supplication unto the good lawd.
And what you tink' he did? Well, I'll tell what he did, he observed of it, he sniffed of it, he plucked of it, he rolled of it and he swung of it. Yes he did!
And clarity came to him, and he got one mean case of da' munchies too.
Me tinks dat' was da' time his man-servant's daughter came dancin' out da' house an' cause he promise if he kill all his enemies he could have da' first ting' dat' come out da' door. A tasty little morsel she was... And he was pleased...
Den' he tole' his prophets to make dim' an' oil of ineffable chrism. Usin' 6 pounds of that sweeeeet calamus and bout' six liters of some olive oil and bout' 11 other secret herbs and spices... (Where you think Col. Harlan Sanders got the idea?)
And he tole' his prophets to sanctify da' temples wit' it an' anoint da' kings, preists and all the prophets an' everyone else wit' dis' crazy stuff. And they did what he say, and da' smoke filled da' temples an they all begin seeing gawd. Dat's right! What a great holy ghost revival dat' was!!
Mmm Mmm Mmm, doze' WAS da' days.
Yah mon! Dat's my story an' I'm stickin' to it.
*changes back to regular voice here*
While you guys HASH that one over, I'm off to the fridge for that left over bucket of original recipe. Good night and happy new year to all, even all you fundies.
Cheers
cheers
Thanks for sharing, I wish you well, and I'm glad my parents' lack of faith saved me from the turmoil you experienced. (You sound fine now, though.)
There's a lot to be said for parents who don't have a clue -- and then, freely admit it. It's troubling to see a parent without faith fake belief in something they truly don't believe. Supposedly this benefits the child. Hmm? Lying to your child while insisting they remain totally open and honest---
you betchya... What kid wouldn't want that deal?
Oh, hey, CDMON, you devote much time and space -- and I assume, effort, though maybe a prolonged rant has become as second nature to you as wiping your... brow. Just curious, is it habitual, or only a one time regurgitation and now we're free to move about the cabin again?
To regulars here, in that I'm new, second testimony I've read or commented on, Why so many anonymous... or mi... or people cloaked in secrecy. Can't they put in initials, just for the sake of order amongst the chaos of life?
So please if you've been a catholic don't loose your faith over, just do some church history.
I think that probably the original beliefs of the Catholic church may have been ok, and I think that was Martin Luthers point that the church was getting off track and things needed to change.
People are infallable and if the devil can corrupt something unified and good...to distort the truth...he sure will, no matter if it's gradual and over time. He has plenty of times to build building blocks of lies.
Just another side point I want to throw out there....the word Bible means many books. The bible is a collection of 66 books (with out the extra history books Catholics throw in). My point is they are seperate books that were just combined into one for us to have them all. Each book is an account that fullfills and verifies something somewhere else. For you to believe Jesus and all His miracles were lies, you would have to excuse all the writings left behind that are proofs - some even first hand accounts of what really happened. That's your choice...why because God gave that to you...choice. One day we will all stand and give an account for every word and action we have ever did. If you choose not to believe in God, that's still a religion..just one without God. So by pulling people from one religion to another...you're still endocrinating people. Folks do you want to "choose" to be part of a religion "without" God? If you're in a religion that doesn't have God...who would you be fellowshipping with?...Doesn't take a genius to know the answer is the "Devil". He comes to steel, kill and destroy. He's the master manipulator. Don't be deceived.
Wow. It's seriously scary that people believe this. Anything they don't agree with must be from The Devil! I believe in The All, who is pure love, and Christians have told me that I am worshipping Satan, even though my All passes their own fruits of the spirit test and their God fails! ROFL!
Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
If god is invisible, and can never be known with any evidence, how does one know if they are ever praying or worshipping god or satan. Well, unless they believe the old testament of the bible, that god is in charge of both good and evil acts.
I Chronicles 21:1 - AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
II Samuel 24:1 - AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved
David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
As to anonymous II's posts, I thought that anyone who believes jesus christ was born of a virgin, died on the cross, rose from the dead and went back to heaven was termed "christian" christ- ian, meaning they believe in christ. To me that would certainly make catholics christians.
Anyway, my opinion is that the very belief in god has created much of the war, turmoil, and confusion of this world.
Confused mentioned the text in Isaiah where the "lord" admits to having created evil, yet christians continue to declare how loving god is.
How can anyone possibly believe the writings in those "books"? LOL
Happy new year everyone, and see you next year!
Hmmm, is it a habitual or a one time regurgutation?
Well did you read it elsewhere before? Was it live or was it memorex?
NO NO NO NO NO, if you must know, the style is derived from a mixture of hip symantics, a la the late, great Lord Richard Buckley and small pinch of Cheech and Chong thrown in just for flavor, and another pinch from an old tv show I think it was called "Fridays."
So if you can figure out just where I "regurgitated" this stuff from, however, feel free to post it. That would be an interesting challenge, should you decide to take it on.
Or by some kind of stretch of imagination could you accept that it is an habitual creative outlet or perhaps just a momentary thing that occurs from time to time only when I am inspired. You know, not unlike those anonymous guys who wrote that silly book we often mull over on this site. Either way, I suppose you'll just have to stay tuned and see what happens next, won't you?
And ah yes, you are free to move about the cabin. Just be careful of the turbulence or you might drop your nuts.
Cheers
Be well, Happy New Year, and stay safe...
Cheers
People are infallible???? Is that from the bible? I've never read that!!
I must add that this is either a typographical error, [which, by the way, might disprove your theory] or if there were a truly a hypothetical devil, perhaps you could explain to me just how this hypothetical devil could corrupt someone who is infallible?
Cheers
"There are Christian people in the Catholic faith, and mainstream seems to accept Catholics as Christians because they believe in Jesus and the virgin birth etc. However there are a lot of reasons to believe that they are not Christian, like the praying to saints, requiring a priest to forgive your sins etc."
Like I said in my post, I thought God and Jesus seemed more like fantasy not reality. Even if I had been raised in the one true faith, which I assume is yours (sarcasm), I would still have realised it wasn't real.
Dano,
"The Mysticism of popular religions tends to be destructive."
Here's an interesting article I found relating to the destructiveness of religion.
"On August 22, 2003, an autistic eight-year-old boy in Milwaukee was bound in sheets and held down by church members during a prayer service held to exorcise the evil spirits they blamed for his condition. An autopsy found extensive bruising on the back of the child’s neck and concluded that he died of asphyxiation. In the past ten years, there have been at least four other exorcism-related deaths in the United States alone, two of the victims children. Then there are several tragic cases like that of Texas mother Andrea Yates, who drowned three of her children in an effort to exorcise the devil from herself in 2001. More recently, a South African couple was arrested for keeping their fifteen-month-old daughter caged, unfed, and tied up because they believed the child was possessed."
http://www.livescience.com/
othernews/050830_emilyrose.html
>>>>cdmon said:People are infallible???? Is that from the bible? I've never read that!!
Doesn't that mean that if we are infallible we are ALL god? That would sure piss off some fundies who don't want to be affiliated with us "sinners"
>>>>cdmon said:I must add that this is either a typographical error, [which, by the way, might disprove your theory] or if there were a truly a hypothetical devil, perhaps you could explain to me just how this hypothetical devil could corrupt someone who is infallible?
Probably a typo...wait! It can't be! We are infallible and don't make mistakes!!...
Well Mike, I guess you told us didn't you?
Mike said: "That is how cowards behave because they are afraid of what they don't understand."
Cowards is it? Perhaps it is xians who don't understand us. If fact if it weren't for so many bigoted xians who come to us,(not us coming to them... i.e. WTF are they doing on a site that espouses non-xianity?) trying to change our beliefs, telling us if that were going to burn in hell, we wouldn't feel the impetous to challenge their beliefs, would we?
And how condescending of you to ASS-U-ME that we don't understand xianity. In case you haven't read the name of this site it is called ExChristian.net. That would imply that at least some of us were xians at one time. So I call your assumptions a silly thing.
Again perhaps it is their lack of understanding or unwillingness to recognize the inherant worth of anyone else's path other than their own that leads them to spout their dogma here. Now for being subject to our cynicism we are called cowards. Very cute...
If we were posting on a xian site then your arguement might be valid. Since we are not posting on their sites, and we are posting on a site where such discussions are the norm. This is the appropriate place to vent our frustrations about xianity. My suggestion would be to butt out.
At least most xians are given forum here, if we were on their sites we'd get censored or banned.
But I'm sure the WM could give you numerous examples of hatred being posted on this site by xians, and most of the time we are only defending our positions against those who wish nothing more to take ours positions away.
Now while your post may have been well meant, perhaps you should not jump to so many conclusions. And if I'm not mistaken calling people cowards puts you right down here with the rest of us, don't it?
Cheers
But if you truly want to take a step further, try reading "The Sins of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong.
Could you please extend us the courtesy of being specific in you allegations? If, on the other hand, you insist on denigrating all those who choose not to believe in supernatural entities, then perhaps you would like to explain how your position differs from bigotry.
Have a happy and enlightening new year.
I totally agree that if there were a god, then what was written about him IS shear nonsense. And I agree 100% that fundies are doing more damage to xianity than atheists.
Now you see we have some common ground here. Feels better don't it?
Cheers
Funny, I am a theist and no one has ever belittled me here except Christians.
Mike, do you believe in anything you can "absolutely" rely on "always", without "fail", and give me evidence for this "concept"...
I personally don't like anything that sets "absolute" limits, you make claim that fundamentalists are "different" than many of the "other" (I assume) mainstream christians... However, what gives a mainstream christian "truth", if they don't "accept" in some fashion, an "absolute"... If you are a trinitarian, then you have to expect that some are going to be skeptical for you to state that jesus is the way and the life, but he is the same god who inspired the writings of the bible...
If you are a non-trinitarian, you have a beter shot to separate jesus from the biblical scripture, but, then you have all of the other writings at CE which declare jesus as an aparition, mortal, etc., etc... and thus, you are left with trying to determine, historically based on "all" written documentation of that era, and the following hundreds of years, which are more "accurate" than others... and that leads to a gray area, where there is no "absolute" known...
I suppose what I am saying, is... if you don't believe in "absolutes", then you have a case against fundamentalists, but by accepting that principle, you leave abrahamic religions as I know them doctrinally... Everyone, learns of jesus, not in first hand revelation, but through the bible, and other people, and therefore, to say, its about jesus and not biblical scripture, is like saying... its about what people have told you, not about what you have actually experienced first hand...
There are many belief systems that don't believe in "absolutes", a democracy is a framework that allows for tolerance, and freedom to live, learn, and pursue happiness... Is it right to say that "democracy" is an "absolute" truth... Historically speaking, democracies have had their share of challenges, i.e., congress placing "god" in the pledge of allegiance for instance in 1954...
There must be compromise to live in peace, however, religions according to their doctrine are pretty explicit on "exclusivity"... If one doesn't want to have the stigma of fundamentalists hanging over their head, why then, do you or anyone else continue to "claim" the title, knowing the doctrinal bigotry... Why not, accept a more neutral tone... There are people who "research" the stories of jesus, and how they were morally applied in a metaphorical sense, but, still don't accept jesus as a deity, or even the savior of mankind... are these people "christian"... the description of "god", and "jesus" is so elusive that just calling someone "christian" has become "meaningless", amongst the numerous meanings...
I agree with you, that bigots can come in many forms and from many different views... however, there are the "single" individuals with their views, and then... there are "entire organizations" with "doctrine" supporting their bigotry... So, when you state that ex-tians, atheists, or anyone else are bigots, you need probably address them individually... unfortunately, for christians, "anyone" can take "all" of the biblical doctrine, and "all" of the religious dogma, and "anyone" associated with that information who accepts it based on "faith", and blind allegiance, and claim them to be "bigots", as... its in writings... if someone doesn't like the writing, they can escuse themselves from the title "christian"... its a choice... and, personally, I believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want, I fight for freedom of individuality... as much as religion fights back, with its doctrine of assimilation...
Dave8, I have to say I agree with pretty much everything you said. Truth is not absolute. Fact is absolute; Truth is relative.
And when I said "all atheists" that was an over generalization on my part and I apologize. The point I was trying to make was that the fundamentalists in their insistance on interpreting the bible literally are perpetuating the ridiculous notion of the mythological god and that's when people stop believing.
I had a hard time with my faith for this very reason and I continued to study the bible and try to discern what the writers meant and how they perceived actual events which influenced their writings. And they did get it wrong quite often. After all, they believed the world was flat and those kinds of perceptions affected their understanding and therefore their writing.
Now, I do believe in God, I believe in Jesus. I do not believe in the virgin birth. When the book of Isaiah was translated into greek the word virgin was used in translation for woman. Also, if Jesus had been born of a virgin I think Paul might have mentioned something about it as would Mark but neither of them did because the tradition of the virgin birth was added much later.
Christianity went through at least 2 to 5 years before Paul wrote anything on the subject and then another 25 to 30 years of oral tradition before the first Gospel (Mark) was written.
The writers got much of it wrong. They meant well but they still got much of it wrong. But they didn't all just make it up. Something remarkable did happen regarding a man named Jesus and it is the Relative truth not the Factual doctrine should be addressed.
The bible is not the word of God, it is an interpretation, a perception of events. In order to begin to understand the bible it must be read using the frame of mind and understanding the level of intelligence of the people who wrote it.
It seems to me that you are far along the path of questioning and you will probably eventually reject Christianity altogether. You have rejected the virgin birth and biblical inerrancy. I'm not sure if you're aware of the changes made by biblical scribes over the centuries. Check out the book "Misquoting Jesus."
Keep searching and I'm sure you will eventually see Christianity the way exbelievers see it.
I'm wondering do you believe in the story of Adam and Eve, original sin, six days of creation?
They were all writing about something real. Their perceptions of what they experienced were as naive as the era and the translators stretched these perceptions even further.
I don't blame God for the lies told about Him.
When I read something in the bible and I think it is not something that a loving god would do then I tend to think that that is a mis-representation, a common belief of the age for example.
For instance, I don't believe that Paul's condemnation of homosexuals is the Word of God. I do think, however, that Paul may very well have been homosexual and abhored himself because of it which is why he preached it as an abomination.
The bible offers alternatives other than the fundamentalist interpretation which is just nonsense. It's very exciting to see what comes of the bible when you read it, not as if the writers are all deliberately trying to dupe you (which makes no sense), but as if the writers were very simple people trying to describe and understand something far greater than themselves.
Regarding Jesus and God, as being a truth for you. I won't attempt to disuade you from your beliefs, if its your personal truth, that's cool. Everyone has a personal truth(s), based on opinion... I do like debating the finer points of peoples' opinions though, as it helps me in my refining of truth... There is only one absolute known at this time, and that is "change", knowledge gained over time, will "change" our perceptions...
There is no knowledge of jesus that was held by a majority view at the time he was to have lived, the gnostics believed he was just an "image", trying to make sense of how a "god" was able to "walk the earth"... the orthodox Jews believed he was just a mortal, and didn't even mention him in their Talmud until ~600CE, and when they did, they didn't portray him in a "good light"... Typically, the stronger the consensus among diverse groups of people regarding a "topic", the more confidence one can place in the inforamtion provided... There was little to no consensus, when a jesus was to have lived... hence, the reason Constantine I, elected Christianity as a state religion...
Regarding god, the concept can not be understood equally between two people... as god and any other object that resides (per definition only), in a metaphysically objective reality can not be shared between any two people... if you believe in a transcendent god, then god can never be known, and can never be defined... hence, "faith", is required based on "hope"...
If god represents hope of what can be, what do you hope for Mike, in this life, and in the afterlife... how does one determine "hope"..., if there can't be anything known in a transcendent metaphysical reality, then... isn't hope based on the needs and desires of what one perceives only in this physical reality...
I have many hopes, but they all reside in this natural reality, as I believe there is a limit to human thought and knowledge... I don't want to dig deep into research, but there are NASA projects, such as SETI, seeking to find higher intelligence, however, lets play with this... say we are seeking a higher intelligence called god... if we were to find a higher intelligence, would we be able to "understand" and "perceive" that higher level thought, or... would humanity be no more than mere pets, like the ones we own to the higher intelligence... If a higher intelligence exists, we will not be able to perceive it and understand it, as we are limited in our neurological abilities, physically... There of course, is the possibility that humanity "is" the higher intelligence in this universe, but... that would fly in the face of religion...
So, are we predisposed to being cosmological pets, wandering the spacial yard of the universe, if so, do we have the ability to make higher order truth based on our limited abilites... We would have to be presumptious enough, and have the audacity to believe we were gods, or the higher intelligence to say, with "confidence", that we "know" something of greater intelligence exists... For instance, a rat in a maze, does it think we as humans are the higher intelligence... what makes it any less than a rat to a higher intelligence...
Again, just throwing out some fodder for thought, even as limited as our thoughts can be... my hope, is to use my thought process, to live life in peace, and I am humble enough, to know, that my thoughts must refer to only the knowledge I have, which is all natural...
the slightest ability to say, they are living organisms, but with extremely limited
The reason I ask about Adam and Eve is because Jesus was supposedly sent to suffer and die to atone for the original sin committed by Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve are a myth then it was not necessary for God to send his son to die for that sin. What is your view on this?
Have you ever studied or heard that Roman Catholocism is just pagan religion dressed up as Christianity. If your only exposure to the faith is the RCC, no wonder your brother and you have rejected it. I was in this system once and I know from experience that it is dead. Ever heard of Dave Hunt? He sheds some light on it.
It has been said that RCism is the innoculation against the real thing.
The christian faith has Jesus (a real historical person), the Jewish nation and many other evidences to prove that it is not a fairy tale.
I was bought up a RC and I rejected it for 'the faith'. You have rejected RC now dont throw the baby out with it.
Regards
Bear
SL: Or you may've just reached an age where you developed a 'faith' that seems contrary to the one you were force fed...I don't know, cause I don't know you. So let me ask, is a Christian to ignore the first 1400 years of Church history?can, and should they dismiss it as being, 'the innoculation against the real thing.'
To Mike and Dave8 -- Thanks guys, thanks to you both, it's a most informative and entertaining line of conversation you've entered, refreshing in its civility, I look forward to its continuance. Peace
In the first approx. 300 years of church history the christian church was persecuted by the state. When the emperor Constantine 'converted' to christianity it became the state religion. All the pagan statues and holidays were christianised. Peter replaced jupiter etc. Christmas replaced the solstace celebrations. Mary replaced Diana.
The pope replaced the emperor. His title is still the same today :"potifex maximus". Think about it. The vatican didn't exist until this time!!!! Enter the dark ages............
Hope this helps Bear
Mike, I agree.
In fact, it was the type of thinking you're expressing now that helped me finally leave Christianity altogether.
As I studied Christian history and realized how much Christian thought, theology, and belief had mutated and divided, resulting in a thousand different versions that condemned each other as heretical, misled or false, it finally occured to me: how many more mutations would occur in the future and how could I ever be sure that I had finally found the "real" thing?
What all this chaos really demonstrates is that there is no Holy Spirit leading men into all truth and Jesus is not building His church. Or, perhaps those verses were just the words of men too.
There are some great comments here, and I am mulling them all over! Dave8, you are brilliant as ever.
I guess Mike got his shorts in a wad and sort of lost it there, but seemed to compose himself later on. I am having a hard time figuring out what he actually does believe, and would, as Jim Arvo said,like to know what that is! LOL
The word Atheist seems to frighten people. Dan Barker's definition of the term is one of the best I have heard. Here is what he had to say in chapter 17 of his book "Losing Faith in Faith":
"Atheists claim god is unproved, not disproved. In any argument, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim."
So I would say to Mike, as others have already said, christians come here and tend to blast us all the time and label everyone here with the dreaded atheist label (even though a lot of us here are not) because they have a fear of a word they often don't even understand. Most of the time, they are not very nice about it, even though they come to our support website uninvited. So yes, I would say we sometimes get defensive, and rightly so.
I guess it would be my hope that everyone could just accept that atheists are no different than anyone else in our morals and our dealings with others just because we don't accept the theory of an "intelligent designer" of the universe.
I recently got into a conversation with a very nice religious coworker I have known for over 6 years, and revealed my position as Atheist. She was pleasantly surprised and somewhat speechless because she said she would never have imagined that I was Atheist, because according to her, I behaved with the same ethics and morals she defined as christian. It still sadens me when something like that happens, (even though we were able to converse without malice toward each other), that christions cannot educate themselves, so continue to be judgemental about people who have different opinions. (btw,I am not saying you are christian Mike)
I simply do not have to believe in a god in order to live my life peacefully, morally, and happily, abiding by the laws of humanity and the land.
Cheers to you too cdmon, and to all!
I meant to say:
"I guess it would be my hope that people could just accept the fact that atheists are no different than anyone else regarding their morals, ethics, and love of life, even though they do not accept the theory of an "intelligent designer" of the universe."
I totally agree, Madbuni. The term "athiest" has become synonamous(sorry, I am a terrible speller) with evil, satanism, etc. Thanks to the good pastors of the world.
Just a few weeks ago in my local paper some scumbag got convicted of child molesting or something equally dispicable and after the trail he was quoted as saying, to argue his alleged innocense, "I believe in gawd and I don't lie."
WTF! Just because he believed in the big sky fairy somehow made him good or better than those who don't? It was friggin unbelievabe, but unfortunatly the religious robots of the world think that way.
I wish xians would educate themselves, too, but if they did it would be the end of their fraudulent religion.
Regards, carol
The original unified Christian faith was Roman Catholicism. Catholic means universal. All other faiths, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, are simply off shoots of Catholicism. An unhealthy seed cannot produce a healthy tree. If Catholicism is false everything that came from it is false. If Catholicism is pagan everything, including saviors born of virgins (a common theme in paganism), that comes from it is pagan. Truth can't come from lies, which is why there are hundreds of Christian denominations all claiming to be the one truth.
I will agree with you on one thing. Jesus was a real historical person. But just a person. Not a god. I wonder how Jesus, a devout Jew, would feel about a pagan belief system like Christianity becoming his legacy.
Have you ever noticed how common it is for newspaper articles to refer to a non-believer as a "self-professed atheist"? Journalists in general do not see the subtle bigotry in that phrase; they would never use the phrase "self-professed Christian", would they? No, that doesn't sound politically correct.
If thought is finite, based on the limitations of human cognition, then how per se, is anyone capable of transferring the concept of a god, to another person;
I could tell you I picture the color "blue" in my mind, but, the color blue I describe is totally limited by what I have been taught and my physical abilities to preceive the definitive characteristics of blue, i.e., I had to be told as a child my primary colors, by definition, but then, I had to somehow apply that definition to my life... if I were colorblind, then I could understand what someone says, when they say, the sky is blue, but I could never make the statement myself, as I have a "finite" capability of the sight sense... and more importantly, I could never "experience" what that person has described...
Thought, is the building of "sensual" intake... we each have different "sense" abilities, I am personally color-blind, however, if given a set of colors, I can determine the colors, by "relative" contrast... However, put me in a room totally colored one color, with no contrast, and I couldn't begin to tell you what the color was...
I mention this only to say... can anyone say, that they have "experienced" with their senses, "god"... as they require "contrast" in order to make that determination... "Contrast" between a transcendent metaphysical reality, and this physical reality...
I know this probably sounds like, no duh, but... truth, is strongest at the point of origin... In other words, right here, right now, what you are experiencing is far more truthful, than what you experienced five minutes ago... Lets take that to an extreme... If you have an experience right now, and someone were to ask you, "do you believe in that experience, with great confidence?" You may reply yes, within your physical sense limitations... however, if you were asked to describe in detail what happened ten years ago, on a certain event, call it your birthday, you may find that you have to recall a lot of tiny pieces of information to reconstruct that party, if you had one, and your "true" feelings at that party at some "specific moment"... The truest picture of your reality, is at this very second...
Once, we start going back on our own experiences, our "confidence" to pull up "exact" feelings, emotions, sensory extracts, etc., becomes less and less as we go back on the timeline, and the future is nothing more for you, than what happened when you started reading this reply, the first part is now in the past, and what you are reading at this very moment is more prevalent and clear than what you read earlier...
Our futures, become how we take the past information, and apply it in the here and now... Religions, in general push church attendance once a week, and some more than once... typically, not in an effort to "teach" their followers biblical history, but... to immerse the followers in their experience in the "here and now"... religion out of sight, is a religion out of mind... Of course, the question becomes... how is one defining their "experience" in the here and now, without a "true", with "high confidence" experience from the past... If god, is an experience, then why a "fleeting" experience... subject to the dimension of time, and only on sunday, etc... I suspect the experience one receives in a group setting, is the experience of familiar people, and not a god...
If one believes god is beyond our understanding, then experience placed in a book of writings, becomes, as you said, pertinent to the writers' knowledge, and ability to express an experience... a few thousand years ago... If you believe you have experienced a god's presence, then, how was that possible according to your doctrinal beliefs, whatever they may be... A Holy Ghost? Which was voted upon, during the First Council of Nicaea, ~325CE by the early Roman Church... Tertullian coined the term trinity, and apostatized himself after voting at that first council on the divine nature of jesus, and consequently fled from Roman persecution, to form his own religious beliefs and followers...
If we don't have that original experience, then how can a person state that another person can... to include clergy... the "contrast" doesn't exist for a mere few on this earth... its logically impossible... and physically via sensory perception indistinguishable from other moments we have in our lives based on natural experiences...
Some suggest that "god" is innately in us, via the Holy Ghost, and that was the litmus test for "experiencing" god, it became the Darwinianesque, missing link to fill in the gap between mortals and gods... Religions differ on this topic, and the trinity... It is, the case that religion must "provide" its followers with a method of "experiencing", "god"... Religions have opted to use intermediaries, such as Mary, Jesus (non-trinitarian view), etc., however, there is no direct link between us and them... therefore, religions have learned to rely on "faith"... as one can't experience a "unique" event in their lives and call it a "godly" experience... Again, if "god", is a constant absolute, then "god", doesn't come and go, god would "always" in any circumstance be available, equally to all that would need a "gods'" assistance...
If at this very moment, you have the strongest truth available to you, then... why not attempt to "experience" an all present "god", which is theoretically a Universal absolute truth... do you find yourself "thinking" about what the "experience" would feel like... if so, should you have to think? Wouldn't a god, give you an "experience" totally unique to your environment.. hence, the reason, talking bushes on fire were used to illustrate the "unique" experience of a god on a physical plance of existence...
Thought is an intricate subject, on many levels, but one only need to define the cognitive process, and come to a conclusion, regarding the finiteness of the universe, and the limitations of our physical senses to interpret and experience the universe...
I find it fascinating, that many religions, state that mankind hasn't evolved (non-evolution)... as this of course, would suggest that our physical "thought" processes are finite... to never climb or progress, i.e., understand the higher intelligence you speak of, we are in their eyes, the proverbial two legged rat scurrying around this universe... again, how would that religion seek to "make a connection" between mortals and gods... unless, we were gods, according to them... and... believe it or not, there are modern day religions, established, lets say, April 6, 1830, that make such a case...
In short, the Mormons believe we don't have to evolve, we live in a finite universe with finite thought, but... we start out as god children... and have the ability to maintain godhood once we pass into the afterlife... each religion, creates its theology and rests upon that doctrine... Some attempt to make a case, that they only accept a piece here, or a piece there of a religion, but the basic foundation, the spiritual linking via some "experience" for a mortal and a god... if that isn't established, then how is it possible to discern "guidance" from a SuperNatural entity, typically thought to be transcendent from this physical reality... All of the little rituals, and festivals, feasts, etc., are nothing more than cultural whitewash... one must look beyond that surface, to understand the real foundations of their beliefs, and the beliefs they were handed by others before them...
I was given my beliefs as a child, and later on, I asked my parents why they gave me those beliefs... and of course, they didn't have a good philosophical "answer"...
They were a little more... subtle, and stated that "church", was somehow "different" from religion... They stated, church was a good environment to bring family, because there were some common values acceptable to society, taught... I asked what those values were, and why they weren't capable of raising me on their own, with those "values"... Their response... The church, was already established, and they didn't have any more "answers" than that presented by religion...
This of course, was before the Internet, and all of the information we now have at our disposal... Religion and church in my childhood years, was nothing short of an established "baby-sitting" service... They had little to tell me, and teach me, regarding "truth", and although I liked the social atmosphere, felt... that church and religion should be solely (no-pun), directed towards the "attainment" or higher knowledge, of "god", and "jesus", using "all" of our gifts, to include "thought"...
It was not until later on, that I found out that religion, didn't have an answer to the "linkings" between, mortals and gods, and that there really couldn't be a "scientific" study, in the area of "metaphysical obejctive reality"... In short, the "god" that I yearned for, in all the years I attended church and religious worship, finally, was understood... I cound't possibly, "make a link", based on my physical sense limitations, based upon the "definition" of "god", per most all religions... God was separated from me, by religious doctrine and dogma... However, I began to think, which religion "doesn't" have doctrine and dogma... by definition, doctrine and dogma, is what established a religion, no matter Protestant or Catholic, etc...
I finally realized, if I wanted to continue to search for "god", or "truth" in general, I had to separate myself from doctrine and dogma, all of it... and search, on my own, as I was as "capable" as everyone "I" knew, to conduct a search, especially after learning of all of the failed philosophical and theological "links", that were presented... I then realized, after doing research, that the values I had been taught, were not the most "humanitarian" values to hold, as even though I wasn't a bigot, the doctrine surely was...
Once free, I started a search, and have yet to "experience" a "SuperNatural" event, in a consistent manner, that I can attribute to an "absolute", all present SuperNatural entity... I have had much joy, and peace however, and have learned what values are truly important to me and why... the more I establish my values, the further away from religion I found myself getting... One of my values, is that "life" valuable, and so is justice... The link some religions use, the bible, to establish a link between mortals and gods, was thus, discarded, as the god of the bible did not support the values I had accepted...
What I have now, is a search, and the values I continue to refine as I gain information... and the more I learn, and search, the further away from religion I get... Religions for many years, have known they don't have the answers, and is why, there isn't a true "bible" study, or theology "study", when attending services... they rely on "social" attachment, to keep their congregations full... In short, "faith" in religion, is "faith" in those who haven't been able to come up with a cogent answer to the questions posed over the past few thousand years...
What keeps religion going, and I don't want to get into detail, unless you care to... is because of the "us-them" mentality... our universe is built upon tension systems, in balance... As long as there is one extreme on one end of the spectrum, mankind is driven to provide a balance, by establishing an opposing view on the spectrum... We get Orthodox Judaism, and then we get Orthodox Christianity (RCC) as a response...
We get Baroque music theory, and then we get the Classical music theory as a response... we get scientific theory, and then we get alternative views of those studies... We get creationism, and then we get, evolutionism...
Mankind seems to relish, in individuality, and rebel against "extreme" ends of any spectrum... its the premise for "freedom"... One day, someone is a fundy, and as long as they receive opposing "tension", they are compelled to continue their stance, its psychologically natural... We all enter this reality, on different points of the belief spectrum, and as long as there is opposition, and tension we will rarely move... its when that tension is finally removed that we are capable of sliding up and down the spectrum freely to find truth...
If appears that you are no longer tied to any one point on the spectrum, and therefore, are free to find truth, by sliding up and down the spectrum to finally find a resting place... At first, I slid from one extreme of the spectrum, from belief to non-belief in a SuperNatural god, based on philsophy, science, history, etc., at this point, I have localized a small piece of the spectrum, I am still sliding slightly, but within a very narrow range and based on the truths I have finally established... If you have questions, or want to debate, it helps because you get the opposing view, and it allows you to refine your perspective via knowledge...
For a long time I refused to even admit to anyone that I was atheist for fear of the backlash. I think my daily visits and support from this site have helped me overcome some of that because I find I am no longer reluctant about voicing my opinion and don't much care what people think, so I am more open about it. It may also have something to do with getting older! LOL
It seems that the virus of the mind is everywhere. Last night we were just having a quiet new years eve dinner with friends and discussing the documentary "March of the Penguins" their mating habits and how they work together and suffer through the ordeal of hatching their young, etc. when someone just popped out and said something to the tune of: "how could anyone be so ignorant as to doubt the existence of a god when they see these miraculous things in nature. I of course was quick to answer, not being able to resist, and explained that he had just insulted me along with some of the most honored scholars, scientists, and writers of the world! Talk about being ignorant!! LOL
Bear, you said: "The original unified Christian faith was Roman Catholicism. Catholic means universal. All other faiths, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, are simply off shoots of Catholicism." I just read an article stating exactly this point.
Wonder how many christian religions would openly admit they are spinoffs of catholicism, or are even aware they are!
I have been off work for the holidays and have been printing out some writings in the archives, and ran across those of Robert Ingersoll. I did not know who he was until I began reading his writings, and I find him to be so interesting, it's hard to quit reading to get some work done! He wrote this stuff so long ago, but you would think it was done just yesterday!
Hmmm, small wonder we've developed a sharp cynicism towards those who try to oppress us...
I'm not sure if many here are aware of the term "Christo-Pagan." This is a group of people who are trying once again to mix their xian beliefs with Paganism. For me personally, the term is an oxymoron and a means of watering down the old beliefs.
Constantine did this once and as a result some of the worst bloodbaths in history began. And we are still dealing with the repercussions of this mixture to this day.
I am all for people having the freedom of following their own paths, but to me these people have broken in through the one tenet of Paganism which has IMHO become a weakness, namely tolerance.
While I'm all for tolerance, I see in this case how it has opened the flood gates to allowing xianity to have it's way with neo-paganism.
It allows people who were xian, and wanted to walk away from xianity (imagine that) but still not willing to give up that fear of hell and an afterlife, to add these aspects to their Pagan paths.
While Paganism has been enjoying a sharp increase in numbers and popularity, I perceive that there are xians who would infiltrate to divide and conquer. To some that might sound reaching, but I have seen it first hand in a local circle that I once belonged to.
Seems a hard path with those attacking from the outside and descension now coming from within.
When voicing an opinion on this matter within the Pagan community, it tends to open a can of worms and label those of us who wish to keep a sense of purity and integrity in our paths as being intolerant. Generally with those who are in fact xto-pagan.
I didn't leave xianity to be led back into it under the guise of Paganism.
Luckily I found a group of like minded individuals with whom I can practice my craft. And we do so happily.
And I sure wish there was a site like this when I left xianity about 20 years ago.
Cheers
Madbuni, I apologize if I insulted or offended you or anyone else with my comments last night or on previous visits to this forum. I have spent some time at christian sites attempting to find a really good theological conversation but unfortunately all I seem to run into are fundies. I originally came here with some very prejudice beliefs about atheists and I think that was evident in some of my earlier posts.
What I have discovered, now that everyone has stopped being hostile (myself included), is that everyone here is very intelligent and I share almost everyone's opinions regarding the fundamentalist view of christianity which must, and I hope will, soon die.
BTW I am a christian. I am an episcopalian to be more specific and what I have found and come to love about the episcopal church is its open mindedness, although that may not be found in every church.
What I have found here is a forum where I can test my own theories and get some feed back. Ironically, I think I am of the same consensus with all of you here with the one exception being that I truly believe in God and Jesus and am dedicated to finding the truth beyond the superstition.
It is sometimes very difficult to break through all the myths and, quite frankly, the fundamentalists are no help. You folks here are, however, a big help for me in strengthening my faith in the Real God.
I hope you all will continue to welcome me at your site because I have really enjoyed our conversation. They have been most stimulating. In return I will respect everyone else's beliefs and I hope I won't offend anyone in the future.
You Said: The original unified Christian faith was Roman Catholicism.
What I am saying is that Roman Catholicism didn't exist until after 300AD. This new organisation became the persecutor of any other religion or thought. They hid the Bible from the masses and tried to stamp out true believers. A 'double whammy'
YS: Catholic means universal. All other faiths, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, are simply off shoots of Catholicism.
An unhealthy seed cannot produce a healthy tree. If Catholicism is false everything that came from it is false. If Catholicism is pagan everything, including saviors born of virgins (a common theme in paganism), that comes from it is pagan. Truth can't come from lies, which is why there are hundreds of Christian denominations all claiming to be the one truth.
The RCC church is not the root. It claims succession from the root but is clearly not. It is so different from the root whilst retaining some resemblance to trick the masses.