I didn't listen to the broadcast. too long waiting on download. It is not up to non believers to prove there is no God. It is religions such as Christianity who make the claim that a patriarchal God exists. Yet they cannot prove it. They also cannot prove that the Christian God known as Jesus existed either. Remember the fiction book known as the bible states "the father and I are one", "You have seen me you have seen the father". So the God of Christianity is Jesus. What ever happened to Zues, Apollo, Isis etc. They were all God as well.

Good job buddy, I likes it.

I too prefer not to use the term "God", I personally see it as too theist.
However, in a debate w/a Christian or a theist of any kind, my personal views come in handy, as I am not an atheist, though I am a nontheist/antitheist.
I am a Universist, and my beliefs 'lean' towards the "probability"{at least in my mind} of the Universe having or having had a first cause intelligent force/creator/etc. My intellectual conclusion is not absolute or certain, it is merely a leaning.
So,when a christian points out the argument from design, as a person lenaing on Deistic argument, I tend to say "yes, the seeming design of the cosmos would seem to indicate a Designer of some sorts, at least- possibly or probably, but NOT CERTAINLY, either way....evidence for a first cause designer that may or may not be all-knowing/seeing/powerful/eternal, may exist still or may have faded out of existence long ago; does not AT ALL give anmy creedence to the idea that it has a name/gender/etc and a particular faith that it has been revealed to humanity to through ancient prophets and so-called holy books. Evidence of a deisgner is not evidence that that designer is the god of the bible or quran,etc. It isn't PROOF of a designer even, merely 'evidence', nor is it a valid reason for ideas such as praying or worshipping such, nor is it a valid argument for moral absolutes based on mere biases".

This often leaves them stumped, because MOST of them have never even heard of this idea, let alone considered it. They've heard of atheism and agnosticism, but DEISM...mention that word and you'll get quetsions like- "what's deism, some kind of satanic cult,etc?".

The argument from design is utilized by theistic faithists like Christians, I find it very useful to use their own flawd logic and flawed ot double-standarded way of using such valid arguments against them.

I find that the atheist position and deist position are both equally valid, both have evidence and logic in their favour, but neither one can be{or at leats "yet"} proven or disproven.

What we need to recognize, in my opinion, when debating w/theists like christians,is that there is theistic faith and non-theistic beliefs/unbeliefs. The latter are all equally valid, theisms are all of such a nature as to have the mountain of evidence and logic stcake dup agains them to varrying degrees{depending on the theism}.

Christians and other absolutist theists tend to make their argument to simply in order to defend the "superiority" of their position, alot of strong atheists tend to do the same,make simplistic arguments against the existence of a Creative force and/or spiritual things, this does not good for the non-theistic,non-faith absed, and atheistic viewpoints in argument.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill "Iconoclastithon" Baker

Why do people need a belief in a god, any god?

What does anyone gain by having a belief in a god, or any god?

Why does anyone need a belief in anything?

What does having a belief, do for anyone?

Ben;

good questions.

Personally, here is how I see it.

People don't "need" a belief in a god, any god. However, logic and evidence may cause a rational faithless individual to see evidence for a intelligent first cause force{call ti god, call it creator, call it "the force", call it frank, call it the uber-galactic space monkey, the term is not what is important-unless giving it a actual"personalized"name and seeing it as a personal entity/person}.
I personally would love to reject the notion of any such thing, but my mind and reason won't allow me to at leats admit to the possibility of such a thing, in fact-my PERSONAL reaosn won't allow me to see it as anything less than "probable"{not "certain"}.

However you're argument certainly works for the belief in a theistic,personal,deity. Yes, such a belief is irrational!

What does one gain...

....Well, theists gain the psychological assurance that they have a divine purpose and a loving sky-daddy looking out forthem, and have a happy place to go to after their body dies. Of course, such belief is rather illogical and when youlook past the facade of faith....it is"fear" and guilt for the most irrational of reasons and use din the most irrational of ways.
Persoanlly I don't need, nor do I feel that i neccaserily gain anything from my personal leanings towards the belief in a first cause intelligence, I never believed it for "gain"and don't now, I have believed it merely because it makes sense to my rational,intellectual brain is all.
I don't dwellon it, I don't put faith or major energy into it, I just merely say when asked if I believe in god= "No, I don't; but I do believe in the probability of a first cause creator/creative force or intelligence of some sorts, but am not 100% certain, I have no FAITH."

Why does anyone need a belief in anything. Well, first we should establish the difference betwen "belief" and "faith". faith is mostly used in a theological context, belief-not as much.
Belief is more subjective and relative in many contexts. I believe that I will not just suddenly float of the planet...but I won't put my faith in it beeing impossible, cause it ain't. But aside from that.... our mids are very subjective and complex, hell...the Universe and existence are, and their are MANY things about our Universe and hell-even our own minds that remain a utter mystery to the physical sciences at the stage of development they are currently at, so each individual may have different theories{or "beliefs"} as to how best describe or underatand thsoe mysteries-FOR THEMSELF anyways, because they are naturally curiuos and some theories make more sense to them w/out nessacerily contradicting the CURRENT scientific understandings OUTRIGHT.

What does having a belief do for anyone?
Good question, I think studying philosophy may help you better understand this, that and psychology,it's the way the human animal operates naturally.
We all have beliefs about something, though we don't all have "faith". Even an atheist has a "belief", the belief that there is no god or even a first cause intelligence of some sorts, it is a "belief"-because it CANNOT yet be proven to be a Universal,objective, FACT!!! Some athiets even have "faith"- "strong" atheists have faith, "strong" any type of person has "faith"-whether atheist,deist,agnostic,or theist,etc.

Anyways,just my personal thought son the matter.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill "Iconoclastithon" Baker

Wow, since these Podcasts have come online this site seems to have gone up a notch in my esteem. It's getting sorta professional around here. Makes me feel like I need to lift my game... :)

It's also good to hear the voices of the people I've been reading from for the last couple of years, and it's refreshing to be able to just sit and listen, without having to read.

Anyway, on topic, I don't think I have any beliefs that don't have evidence. Of course I've always said that, even when I was christian.
The difference now comes from a decision I made early on after my initial dumping of christianity.
In explaining my new position to my Dad I told him that I'm going to have to rebuild my 'beliefs' bit by bit - using only those pieces for which I have solid reliable proof.

I haven't been able to build very far since then though (which is probably why it's hard to persuade him out of it also) since there's always a counter point to anything I come up with.

So, in order to make some kind of headway in my 'search for the truth' I build ahead of myself, in a mockup fashion so to speak, using pieces that seem "most likely" - however, none of these are locked in.
If anything gets disproved I am willing to throw it away - even if it may be disappointing to do so.
I don't ever want to fall back into 'faith'.

Now I can't say I'm atheist and I don't want to 'settle' for agnostic (not that agnostics have just settled), I can't even say I'm a materialist, but one thing I was inspired by was from Oprah Winfrey.
She likes to ask, "What do you know for sure?"

I don't know what the truth really IS (though I would love to), but I am able to say what it ISN'T.

In that spirit, the one thing I can honestly say I 'know for sure' is that...
Christianity is not the Truth.

If we agree on the fact that the same omnipotent, omniscient "CAUSE OF EVERYTHING, AND ALL THOUGHT AND ACTION" (GOD) is causing all of us to argue for or against the truth of the bible, then we just have to assume that "IT" likes a good argument, or maybe there are so many creatures already in heaven "by default", because they lived before Christ, or never heard of Christ, that there is not enough room for more, or maybe it is irrelevant because the real purpose for our creation is to provide a source of food for a really intelligent life form that is on the way here to harvest us and put us in their cosmic deep freezer.
Dan (Rationalist)

"...real purpose for our creation is to provide a source of food for a really intelligent life form that is on the way here to harvest us"

Yeah. That's why he's called the 'good shepherd'. Why else would he keep a 'flock' if not to fleece them and eat them?

Something for the Theist/Deist/Pantheist to either consider, or completely ignore:

Let's suppose that there is a "God". Okay, fine... then it would stand to reason that he/she/it is either a *personal* god, or a *non-personal* god; it would stand reason that said god either HAS a vested interest in it's "creation", or said god does NOT have a vested interest in it's "creation". If it is the latter case in both instances respectively, then really, WTF difference does it make if such a non-personal "God", or "Force", exists? Said "thing" is essentially "dead weight", and furthermore, calling such a useless "thing" a "God" only complicates such a concept. It would make zero sense to one minute say that a "God" or "force" is responsible for the existance of the Universe and everything in it, and the next minute say that it doesn't have a vested interest in "us". Really now, if human life didn't exist, would there be a "purpose" to the Universe from a *human* standpoint? Of course not, hence, the contradiction is self-evident.

On the other hand, for those who posit that said "God" is a *personal* being---a being who mingles with, and who looks out for, it's "creation"---then it would only stand to reason that said being is objective in how it relates to us, yet, if we look at the world's religions---namely christianity---we see that said "God" lays out a plan for salvation that is CLEARLY built around C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-S. This fact would make said "God" and it's "Plan" CLEARLY subjective.

In conclusion---and continuing under the premise that ALL religious belief is SUBJECTIVE---we see blackmail, coersion, jealousy, rage, arrogance, and most of all, conditional love ALL being characteristic of MAN, and thus, the whole concept of "God", being a creation of mankind.

Thank ya...thank ya very much.

Hello, i don't know why I'm posting on here but I can understand why you guys hate christians. I've been messed over by them too. It looks like a lot of you guys know the bible pretty well. (especially the guy that runs this site) From the church i was going too I swear I would shoot some of them if it wasn't wrong. Well since you do know your bibles I can tell you that a lot of these christians that say they are saved really arent any more. In first or second peter it says that these kinds of people, including a lot of pastors i know, are going to burn in the darkest regions in hell reserve for Satan and his angles for what they have done and how they are living their life. What Peter is talking about is false teachers but a lot of these christians now a days are pretty much the same. A lot of them are OK but A LOT of them aren't.
And what Jesus says about the pharisees and saducees can be applied to a lot of pastors I know now a days. There are also good strong pastors so don't think I'm talking about them all. The quote I said might not be in Peter but it is in the new testament in the epistles. Who really has time to remember all those numbers? And the ones who do remember all of those numbers are generally trying to impress you by how "Holy" they are. lol Jesus comments on that too. lol

Why are you guys always hating on us? Why not buddha and wicca? Why not the chinese Gods or Islam? Wasn't it Islam that killed over three thousand americans on 9/11? And they were civilians, not even the soldiers that they should really be mad at. And yea I know where your coming from. I've been messed over by a lot of other christians too. I would shoot them if there was nothing wrong with it. But that wasn't an excuse for me to abandon my faith. Maybe you should sart reading the bible and ask God why he's such an ass hole? I ask him all the time in those exact words. lol I have been humiliated and beaten by my catholic mother. About the same from my christian father. But yet I am still here and have not turned my back on God. This is the answer to your question as to why you went through hell right after you were saved or at church. If you are really saved you will go through a trying process to purify your faith. Just as God says many times in his word about GOLD being tried by the fire so will your faith be Forged. Paul says it like that and God makes reference to it in the old testament books. He makes a lot of refernece to it actually. Yea this time in your walk sucks and every thing that can go wrong does go wrong. I know it's hard but it wont last for ever. I'm still going through it and it's been 18 years. Also the larger the annointing on your life the longer it generally takes. I.E. the more it hurts. lol

"I would shoot them(Christians) if there was nothing wrong with it."

Nice. Okay, so are you a Christian, or not? If so, then by your own words you'd have no problem taking a bullet yourself; if not, then how do you know it's "wrong" to shoot people, without the Holy Bible as your guide to knowing what's "right" or "wrong" in the first place? ' Care to explain?

So, the more one suffers and accepts pain, the more tried and true their faith becomes.

However, its not god that is physically causing this pain and suffering, its parents and the environment. If these parent have already had their pain and suffering, and had their "faith" forged - it seems it hasn't done much for their humanity. Perhaps, they would be better people, without the pain, suffering and forging. Believe it or not, its possible to live a life of peace, without actively seeking out and hurting someone in order to show care.

Exodus 15:3 - "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

Why would an all powerful god, need to conduct war in order to make things right. If god is all powerful, and didn't want pain and suffering, god could have made corrections without forcing pain and suffering onto everyone, to include innocent victims.

However, I suppose there may be the personal/soft touch not seen often in the bible of the christian god;

Deut 22:30 - "A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt."

Pehaps, YHWH, is a cross-dresser/closet queen. Not that I find that offensive, perhaps just enlightening that a holy book need talk about the need to look away from those who are a little curious of their sexuality. I don't recall getting that one, in Sunday School bible study.

Anonymous wrote:

"Yea this time in your walk sucks and every thing that can go wrong does go wrong. I know it's hard but it wont last for ever. I'm still going through it and it's been 18 years. Also the larger the annointing on your life the longer it generally takes. I.E. the more it hurts. lol
"

You know, if you would just get over the whole idea that suffering is somehow a good thing that gets you brownie points in the eyes of a god, you would could end your 18 years of misery much quicker.

Or are you a glutton for punishment?

The answers are right in front of you. You are on an ex-christian website talking about how miserable a life you have had with your religious parents and in the last 18 years. Seems to me, that when something is going wrong in your life, change is in order. You might want to consider some changes for the better, some alterations in the way you view the world, and I assure you that you will begin a new period in your life that is free from the misery religion has fooled you into enjoying...

You have been brainwashed to enjoy misery, self loathing, life hating, hoping for death and the only cure for your personal hell are the pie in the sky ideas promised after death by an outdated story book. To you, earth and life itself is hell. You are accustomed to the pain, and the people you surround yourself with more than likely reinforce the idea that it is good for you, that god likes it when you suffer.

Stop being a masochist, wake up, and "Always look on the bright side of life! *Whistles* "

Misery likes company. However, misery need not be the reason to have community. Perhaps, religionists will realize they can find decent company without propogating misery among themselves.

Historically speaking, christianity began in its many sects with misery via dietary laws, etc., then became misery because of original sin, and throughout the ages, it appears that christian leaders and followers have held another misery out front, that would be the misery received from all the non-believers.

Many christians have been programmed to believe they are victims, of a secular society, and the pity party continues to churn over the years. If they get attention - they are rewarded and it becomes a conditioned behavior, have misery, get attention. If they don't get their needs met, some of them continue to engage in self-destructive acts in order to be recognized - unfortunately, they at times, take victims with them on their escapade.

Yes there is a God!

200 million Idiots can't be wrong.

"Why are you guys always hating on us?"

Anon, please remember that we used to be one of "you" once. This is a website for ex-christians. We come to here to learn about and heal from the fallout of our christian experience.

Yes, I felt god's "spirit," read the bible, went to church, witnessed to others, so please don't tell me I was never a real christian. What I didn't realize that what I felt was a profound relief from believing that I wasn't going to hell. I'm sure I'd feel the same way if I had a near-death experience--ecstatically relieved and high on life for a while.

Regarding your question as to why we seem to focus on the crimes of christians, one reason is simply that it is 10 times more reprehensible when a christian is accused of, say, child molestation, because that is a person who puts themselves out in society as having higher morals that an average person. This is also a person who supposedly has the spirit of god dwelling inside of them. Where does that spirit go when the "christian" is engaged in a sinful act? Does the spirit just go "Gee, I'm gonna disappear for a while here until you're done."? When a non-religious person commits a crime, it's just that, a crime that deserves appropriate punishment. But when a self-professed servant of god does the same thing, it screams of hypocracy and sickness.

Listen Folks! You cannot judge No Man! We have no idea what is in God's Holy Plan. God may just call a preacher out to molest children to wake up the parents, that they in the end come unto the Lord and Be Saved, this is called Youth Pastoring.

God works in such mysterious ways.

God may call a preacher out to embezzele monies and funds, so that an example may be to wake someone up, say someone thinking about robbing a bank and killing someone, by allowing a preacher to get caught, that potential bank robber(s), may read in the paper and see that it is wrong to steal and in effect, Steer his Heart towards God.

Or God may call a wife of a preacher out and tell her to kill her husband, so that people thinking about murder will see that it is wrong and turn their Heart over to God.

You see, we think we all know so much, but all the while God is always one step ahead of us.

Please before it's too late I would like to see everyone that visits this website to give their Heart up to God right now, I mean just take out a steak knife and with a perpendicular jigsaw motion, just carve out your heart and give it to God, won't you just do that before it's too late?

These things I pray in Jesus's Holy name, amen and amen. So be it!

Ben(The Rationalist)

Anonymous: "Listen Folks! You cannot judge No Man! We have no idea what is in God's Holy Plan."

Riiiggghhht. Well, if you believe we are living a "Gods'" holy plan, therefore, we shant judge any man, lest we judge god himself.

Then would it be profound to say, that you are an idiot, and that your god knew I would say that as part of the big plan. Also, god wanted me to tell you, that he's going to spank your spiritual a$$ once you get to heaven, for believing he is stupid enough to kill his own son, on a fence post, with natural barb wire thorns.

Oh, and god compels me to say, as part of the big plan, that you and all abrahamic religions, will get your punishment when you get to heaven for refusing to use the gifts he gave humanity, i.e., a brain, etc. Well, that's if you still believe, that no man should judge anyone, and that my comment was just part of your gods' plan. Shall I wait for you to use your brain, or should we just continue to accept the fact that christianity is an illogical self-refuting belief system.

I suppose you are now, nothing short of being your gods' ninny.

Oh, Ben March 29, 2006 5:51 PM , I almost got caught by your comment. I thought this guy was the winner over all in this site. But I saw your name, you cute beautifully samrt Ben.
The most tempting words are: "Please before it's too late I would like to see everyone that visits this website to give their Heart up to God right now, I mean just take out a steak knife and with a perpendicular jigsaw motion, just carve out your heart and give it to God, won't you just do that before it's too late?"
...I chuckled out loudly....ha ha ha....good, two thumbs up!!!!!!

How can I get back at the TV evangelists
I'm a light sleeper. I enjoy zapping while most folks are asleep. I can't get over the number of so-called TV evangelists who broadcast their crap in the early hours. I'd like to give these morons a piece of my mind but they don't give you any contact information ...unless it's to send them money. Is there any way I can find an eMail address for a$$holes like Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff and the like?

I am certain there is no God if the definition is the common definition attributed to a God. The common definition is contradictory. If I were to assert there exists an object that is entirely red, and it is also entirely white. That definition is contradictory and therefore that object cannot exist. If you don't subscribe to the common definition of a "God", please forward a definition that is not contradictory.

I never intentionally mean't to come this site, in actuality I was looking for something else but well I'm here I might as well say that I am most certain there is a God. I have never been so sure of something in all my life. It's unfortnate for you people to be so blinded by lies, that you've never truely experienced or seen the glory of God, or even spoken to Him. But, I'll tell you I have. My lifes not perfect, I have experienced very difficult things in my life, but when I put faith in God things that are impossible become possible. It saddens me to see a sight like this, but God is real more so then the physical things of this world. I pray that you all realize the truth so you as well may have ever lasting life! God loves you, and walks beside you through all your times and troubles!

"Is there any way I can find an eMail address for a$$holes like Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff and the like?"

Why, yes!

If you send email to these addresses, you probably won't get a response, but maybe you'll feel better? Couldn't find one for Peter Popoff, so you'll have to use plain ol' snail mail for that one.

InfoRequest@imail.bennyhinn.org

Peter Popoff Ministries
People United for Christ, Inc.
P.O. Box 760 - Upland, California 91785

Have fun!

Searching for a christian monologue i stumbled on this site. Here's the thing..Belief in something greater than yourself doesn't come from any scientific "fact" it comes from faith..faith is believing with out a doubt even with the speculations..I know I'd hate to think that I was just dropped here and have no true purpose that the sole purpose of humanity is to be born and die..and that the trees and animals and planets just..poof appeared..where's the sense?You can't be sure there is no God because regardless of how intelligent mankind gets..there are some things that is just beyond our knowing.people will spend their lives trying to convince themselves that God doesnt exist.do you know why? because its always easier to avoid the truth than to face it and accept that we do need someone bigger and greater than us to believe in..If there isnt a God and we accept Him then there's nothing to worry about..we'll die and that'll be it..but if there is and we don't accept Him..we'll, guite frankly..burn in hell..There's nothing to lose by believing..but we stand to lose a whole lot more by not believing..

Yes, yes, anonymous. We've heard all that a million or more times.

Polly want a cracker?

Did you even listen to a single podcast? Did you read even one article?

We left Christianity because it is bogus, false, pretend.

Believing in Santa makes for a fun Christmas Eve, but it's still just a phony story -- no matter how much it is believed in by millions of children around the world.

Peace.

Polly want a craker??
Did you just hear what you said?
Santa makes for a great Christmas, but wait if you didnt believe in the fake santa then wouldnt that make well Christmas unfun.... It doesnt hurt to believe does it.... Like anonymous said its a lot better to believe in something and have faith in Christianity, because quite honestly can you prove your theory about there being no God. In addition, where would you rather go when you die, Heaven or Hell? I know you are thinking there is no Heaven or Hell, but if there is no heaven or hell where would we go? Just out of curiosity...

Well, Adam, using your logic, you should also be believing in Allah, Zeus, Ra, and every one of the thousands of gods out there. I mean, can you "prove" that none of those other gods are real?

Shouldn't you believe in them, just in case?

I mean, from what I hear, Islamic hell is super hot!

Scary...

Ah, when it rains, it pours. Tisk, tisk.

Ironically, Adam repeated: Polly want a cra(c)ker??

Yes, Adam.. that's speaking metaphorically, for someone who repeats something they heard, in this case, the revealed knowledge you've been indoctrinated with.

Adam: Did you just hear what you said? Santa makes for a great Christmas, but wait if you didnt believe in the fake santa then wouldnt that make well Christmas unfun(?)....

"Believe" in the "fake Santa"? lol! Uuh, is there a "real" Santa somewhere? No, there is not. Moreover, whether the belief in Santa makes "Christmas" fun, or "unfun", is irrelevant to whether Santa exists, or not.

Adam: It doesnt hurt to believe does it(?).... Like anonymous said its a lot better to believe in something and have faith in Christianit(y)...

I'm guessing you're very young...14, 15, 16, max. Okay, believing in "somthing"..and having "faith" in "Christianity", is apples and oranges. Nonetheless, please provide evidence/statistics for why it's better to have faith in Christianity, as opposed to not having faith in it.

Adam: ...because quite honestly can you prove your theory about there being no God.(?)

No, just like you can't prove there is no Easter Bunny. Does that mean the Easter Bunny exists, then? No, it does not.

Everybody together, now....the burden of proof is in whose lap?...right--the one making the fantastic claim. That's YOU, Adam.

Adam: In addition, where would you rather go when you die, Heaven or Hell?

It's not about "rather"..it's about reality. Abbdulah Muslim would "rather" have an orgy with a bunch of young sultry virgins in a lush Islamic paradise in the clouds, as opposed to just expiring..i.e..ceasing to exist. So?....does that mean he'll get what he'd "rather" have?? Again...no, it does not.

Adam: I know you are thinking there is no Heaven or Hell, but if there is no heaven or hell where would we go? Just out of curiosity...

Where do we go? Well, do you have a recollection of the "place" you were before you were born? It's THAT place, Adam.....that's where we "go".

I have been a Christian for about three and a half years now, and I can tell you that I know there is a God. I have witnessed many miracles, many healings and many things, that just make me know there is a God.

Challenge GOd on this. Ask Him that if He is real, to reveal Himself to you.

I was a Christian for 30 years.

Guess what: I was self-deluded. So are you.