Letters to the Webmaster

Dear disillusioned:

2008-06-30T18:21:00.003-05:00

A letter from Barbara
Perhaps in response to this testimonial? -- webmdave

I am sorry to know that you did not get to know the God of mankind as I have. Being a Agnostic or an athesist does not solve your problem for God is Lord of all and is a reality.

Should you choose to ignore God it will not cause God to disappear. I as a parent can understand why a man who is a pastor react to you becoming his son-in-law. I am indeed sorry that you are hurt by his reaction but one day you may feel what he felt when you came into his circle and "changed the atmosphere.

Man was born with a self-satisfying nature. It is a nature which seek to satisfy itself without regard for the creator's glorification. The Bible teaches that all glory belongs to God and that He, God, will not share His glory with another. Your wife is a disappointment to her parents because she did not stand up for what is considered the faith of her father.

Her reaction shows that she is not deeply rooted in God and as such she will be spued out of God's mouth. The Word declares: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. When Adam sinned, mankind inheritted the "sin" genes and it is passed from father to child. God's covenant was with Adam - not Eve - so God imputed the sin through our fathers.

I think you should not close your mind - but should research diligently the scriptures for yourself and reason out the concepts. Yet, if the things of God are hidden from you, then sadly there is nothing anyone can do because not all of us are called to righteousness and just maybe you are one of those who was destined for hell like Judas - when the scripture said, none have I lost except the son of perdition.

Try to be more respectful

2008-06-21T06:32:00.002-05:00

A letter from Ken

Im all for free speech and creativity, and i enjoy coming to this site as i am in a transition mode spiritually...but i would just suggest to try and remain as respectul as possible with the content you can control. The gallery with the artwork and the shirt and key chains leave a bad taste in my mouth. Once i viewed the gallery and shop this site switched from something mature and intellectual to something juvenille and mocking, and that is no way to have people listen to you. To me this should be a place where Christians and exchristians alike can come and talk faith, an open forum where doubting christians can come without fear of mocking attacks or being made the villian. Obviously since this site is called exchristian i would assume that those in charge would understand where people are coming from and the long held emotional connections to imagery and beliefs they have. I once fought for my faith so strongly and it built up in me extremly powerful emotions and sensitivities. This process is not over nite especially if youve been believing since youth, and many as i have will come to be fed more info, more testimonials, more articles and videos, in hopes of making their final decision. Infuriating emotions regardless if they are in the process of getting discarded is no way to have a person full of doubt listen. Seeing a jesus fish being humped by the evolution fish is not "encouraging ex Christians", it will only perpetuate the myth of the pious that without christianity we are just assholes waiting to happen, with no tact or sensitivity toward others. They will just go into defense mode and the mind you are so hoping to open and 'encourage' will shut like a bear trap as soon as they see this stuff. Thank you for your time.

Leaving your Religion?

2008-06-21T06:29:00.001-05:00

or still feeling the effects?

It's not the end of the world!

Join the recovery retreat in August, 2008, in Berkeley, CA.

Release and Reclaim I, Aug. 8-10, will be a supportive retreat for those who are beginning to let go of toxic beliefs and recover from an authoritarian religion such as Christian fundamentalism.

Release and Reclaim II, Aug. 15-17, will be an advanced weekend for moving beyond religion and reclaiming a life of joy, creativity, and connection. It will be open to those who have already attended a retreat or have done healing work already.

Both retreats are led by Dr. Marlene Winell, author of Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving the Fold. Interested participants are asked to discuss their situation with Marlene first. Both weekends are also open to professionals by special arrangement. Call Dr. Winell at 510-292-0509

RELEASE and RECLAIM I: Sorting it out and Healing

Do you feel alone in your struggle for healing? Join us for a powerful weekend with others who can understand and support you. We'll rant and rave, tell our stories, discuss the issues, visualize, role-play, dance and draw – whatever it takes to let go of toxic teachings and reclaim our lives. A joyful, empowered life is your birthright and we will use individual and group processes for learning new directions. Bring your sense of humor and plan to have fun too.

WHEN: FRIDAY, August 8, 7PM until SUNDAY, August 10, 3PM

RELEASE and RECLAIM II: Growing and Thriving

Have you left your religion behind but you're not sure what's next? Join others who are feeling liberated and wanting to rebuild a life that allows full, creative expression of who you are. We'll help each other with courage and confidence dealing with "the world," sharing our experiences and doing exercises for tapping into inner resources of wisdom, love, and strength – perhaps more than you ever expected if you were taught to be dependant!

We'll look at issues of enjoying life now instead of later, sexuality, "spirituality," and relationships. In a supportive group, we'll use art, movement, and visualization as well as discussion. Bring your wild and worldly self and plan to have a great time.

WHEN: FRIDAY, August 15, 7PM until SUNDAY, August 17, 3PM.

BOTH RETREATS:

WHERE: A beautiful house in Berkeley, California, with hot tub and other amenities. The closest airport is Oakland, and we can help you with connections from there.

COST: $320 for the workshop, $125 for room and board. $445 total. $25 discount given for full payment by July 20. Financial need considered and options available.

TO REGISTER: Contact Marlene Winell for a telephone discussion about your interest. Send an email to mwinell@gmail.com or call 510-292-0509. $100 deposit will then secure a space. Register soon as group size is limited to 8.

Note: These retreats are designed to help develop networks of support that extend beyond a single weekend. With time for sharing meals and relaxing in a house together, participants often make lasting friends - face to face, not virtual! We also have an online group and conference calls as a follow-up support system.

See a Youtube video of a retreat at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7tXprPoqYk
Read comments about a previous retreat at: http://marlenewinell.net/node/31
More information: www.marlenewinell.net

Was the Jesus myth plagiarized from pagan religions?

2008-06-17T20:12:00.005-05:00

A question from William H

I have a question and I hope that someone can answer it for me. I have heard that the story of Jesus was basically stolen from earlier pagan religions and films such as The God Who Wasn't There and Zeitgeist have both made these claims.

This knowledge did much to help me in my de-conversion process, but now I am hearing people claim that Christianity didn't plagiarize older pagan religions the way many people claim. It seems like there is kind of a battle going on right now at least from what I have seen online as to whether or not this is the case.

I was wondering if someone who actually knows something about ancient history could please tell me what the truth is regarding this matter. Is the Jesus myth actually copied from earlier pagan religions, and if so to what extent? Any accurate sources of information such as links to websites would also be greatly appreciated.

I was just about to come out to my fundamentalist Christian family regarding my unbelief and I wanted to have my facts straight because I know they will try everything they can think of to reconvert me. Many of them do nothing but read book after book of apologetic arguments and a few of them have been to Bible college. I want to make sure that any information that I give them as reasons for my unbelief are accurate, beyond the common sense stuff in which case they are oblivious anyway.

What can I do? What should I do?

2008-06-13T06:04:00.005-05:00

A letter from Patsy

Over the past month, I have been e-conversing with Pastor Tim O’Brien who has some limited national recognition throughout the US. The conversation started because I was upset after seeing how the children were treated in Jesus Camp, and I expressed that to him. As a result, the conversation continued to grow.

He and I are polar opposites. I am an atheist and I have been questioning much of what he does. He has told me in several emails that he has healed the sick with prayer. He says has healed leukemia. He has told me of two incidents where he has prayed and “watched” a leg grow, one inch in front of him and another one inch overnight. He says he has healed back problems. His claims own hearing was healed by prayer when he was 10 years old.

His church sends out missionaries and they have recently been to India supposedly healing at least 12 AIDS patients. They have been totally cured for at least a month, so it is said.

I have never been able to get him to admit he’s taken money for these prayer healings. His non-answer to my direct question leaves me with the impression he indeed has suggested and accepted money. I have been trying to get him to try James Randi’s $1,000,000 challenge. Of course, he won’t do this, because he knows it’s “rigged."

Tbe best email was when he told me something along the lines that it's not so hard "to make a human from dust. All the combined ingredients would cost about $2.79.”

Somehow, with all these interesting beliefs, he manages to stay under the radar. There is nothing about him on the Internet where someone claims to have been cheated out of money for a false healing (at least nothing I’ve found). When I started to write to him and questioned his reports of prayer and healing, he removed comments pertaining to prayer and healing from his website. (Last time I checked he also removed his sermons after I poked fun at them).

This man is charismatic and it’s easy for me to understand how he charms anyone. While I’ve been appalled at much of what he’s said to me, and I’ve expressed that to him, in most cases he’s remained calm. I, however, am haunted with this, thinking he will tell a person who is genuinely sick that he’s healed them.

Is there anything that can be done to stop this sort of action? Am I out of line pursuing this? Should I just leave those who are vulnerable to fend for themselves? I would really like to see an operation like his shut down. I need the perspective of others. Any thoughts and assistance will be appreciated.

I have all the email conversations between us. He is in Missouri and I am in Arizona. His website is www.roaministries.org .

I don’t know of anyone who has claimed to be hurt by this man ... I’m just worried.

I am sad and angry that a young man had to die

2008-05-29T18:53:00.005-05:00

From Linda W

Tomorrow is the funeral of a young man. He died at age 21 in Iraq. He was a childhood friend of my daughter.

The funeral will be at a church, of course. His parents were very religious.

I am very saddened and yes, angry that a young man had to die.

The funeral will have the usual messages of how great and good God/Jesus are, how this young man was called home, how he now is in the loving arms of Jesus, etc.

I think to myself of how I would cope with the death of one of my children. I know that regardless of the depths of my despair, I have come too far in my rational, logical worldview to resort to the supernatural for comfort. Knowing that the deceased is not suffering and honoring the life he had here on earth would bring me peace.

I understand the comfort it brings people to believe the dead are in a better place, but with that belief comes the belief in hell. How many people suffer needlessly wondering if loved ones passed on are in hell?

The funeral will be mostly about how wonderful God is, how God helps the bereaved, how the Lord is with all of us, etc. Only in the privacy of one's home will anybody be calling out to his or her God, angrily demanding to know why and how a loving God could let such a thing happen. And this most likely will then be accompanied by guilt and then an emotional surrender to "God's will."

If you can separate yourself from the sadness of the situation, you can see the madness in the belief that such a great power is now your comfort, but that power did nothing to save your loved one, nor did anything to stop the suffering of millions of other loved ones.

And it made no difference whether they were believers or not.

tag: death, hell, Iraq War, rational thought, mourning, , reason, skeptic, Bible, agnostic, atheist

Why do you come so strongly against people believing in God?

2008-05-27T18:32:00.001-05:00

A letter from Jonah S

I don't know exactly who or what is God or Godess but do believe that there could be a high being or creator. Maybe as many you say there might not be, but my question to you people is this: Why do you come so strongly against people believing in God?

Why attack people who believe different than you?

Science is just as factual as many religions. I mean both evolution and Islam are based on man's ideas and experiences are they not?

You people have every right to make fun of those who do believe in a creator but don't you think it's kinda silly?

Science has been wrong a lot over the years just as religions have been too, but there could be some truth found even though there were mistakes too.

Science vs. God

2008-05-27T18:23:00.002-05:00

From THE ACE

This is not a testimony, but something I wanted to bring to bring to everyone's attention. My parents recently e-mailed this Christian propaganda; I've read it through several times, and it still confuses the heck out of me. Would some of you comment on this so I can give them some logical answers to whatever this is trying to say?

Science vs. God

'Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a
moment.

'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if
you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He
doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of
water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella Is God good?'

'Er.yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student : 'From...God...'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there
evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything,
correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created
everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to
the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues:
'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible
things, do they exist in this world?'

The student: 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his
question. 'Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the
lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is
mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in
Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice is confident: 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or
smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable
protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem
science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a
question of his own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested.
The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat,
mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we
don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat.
You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of
heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as
darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night
if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the
absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright
light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have
nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be
able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him.
This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is
flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time.
'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student
explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good
God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they
evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young
man, yes, of course I do'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he
realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the
commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other
student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class
who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into
laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain,
felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the
student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I
guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists
with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as
evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We
see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man.
It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.
These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at
least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.
It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when
man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold
that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

Pass this on if you have faith and love Jesus.

I'm on this journey and need some words of wisdom

2008-05-26T08:42:00.001-05:00

from Lori

I'm currently trying to find out what is the truth in this world and am having a hard time dealing with the splitting of myself.

On one hand I know what I have been taught, but on the other hand I have so many questions that are unanswered, such as why would God tell us "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt love thine neighbor as thy self", but then command people in I Samuel 16 to kill of a nation that was Israel's neighbors (children, women, cattle, everything)?

Part wants to say, "Well, they weren't following the will of God." but the other wants to say "Well, can I go and kill people today because they are not following the will of God"? I don't know.

I'm on this journey and need some words of wisdom. Can someone help me without the brutal comments? Can't handle that right now.

Thanks

Take my advice: be sincere in your search

2008-05-26T08:08:00.005-05:00

A letter from Charles M

Hello, I was impressed by the webmasters testimonial and all the work he did over the years for the Bible. I understand that there is a lot wrong with the churches in America and elsewhere. There are to many stumbling blocks put there by people in churches. Also lots of churches dont accept what the Bible says and dont understand it. I dont see the point of investigating the Bible if you dont check out the basics of what it says. For instance if evolution is true then the Bible is not. Simple. If this question is not satisfactorily settled it does not matter how well you know the Bible or how much someone wants to be a christian the whole thing is just going to self destruct at some point in the future. So check out the claims of evolution - do they really stand up ? are they really 'scientific' ? or is the seemingly implausible idea of creation more logical ? These are the issues that individuals must work out to their satisfaction.

Also, what about Noahs flood ? Is there any evidence ? Why dont you Google it and see ? If its true and if there is lots of evidence for relatively recent catastrophe - and there should be if it is true then what issued does this raise ? Could all this God loves everyone stuff be wrong after all if he really did kill all those millions of people in a flood he didnt love them very much did He? Not much of a 'wonderful plan for their lives eh ?' maybe most of the preachers are lieing and maybe their congregations like it that way.

Maybe the real God of the Bible isnt to be messed with maybe the problem today is there is no fear of God and that swhy so many on this site have given up because of the appaling example set by many christians and their ignorance concerning what should be the foundational truths of what they claim to believe in. Welll friends I do hope you will take my advice and see if there are any hard facts in the areas of Geology, archaeology, biochemistry etc to back up what the Bible says. I found that there is an abundance and as one would expect from a reasonable God He has not left Himself without testimony, far from it. We dont need blind faith to accept the creator, He says use reason not your heart. If you dont at least have a look to see then you will not after all be sincere will you ?

Jesus yes, church no

2008-05-23T05:03:00.006-05:00

From Dakota L

I'll be honest. I haven't given up on Jesus, but church makes me wince. I've been very hurt by religion. I've made my own mistakes as well.

I've grown up in church my entire life. I found this site after "Googling" Masters commission, as I was a first year student. I feel it created a lot of insecurities in people; I know it did for me.

The no dating policy was more like "no looking in the opposite sex's general direction." I was even "confronted" for doing so in a large group of people. I had hardly had any communication with the opposite sex and was shy for the most part. Then I'm suppose to be made to feel like I am doing such an ungracious deed? I swear, it screwed me up psychologically. Even to this day, although I am happily married, I have trouble with the opposite sex. I feel very uncomfortable after being conditioned in Masters Commission. That is one thing I think was unhealthy.

I was also prayed for and as the woman was praying she was screaming for the spirit of lesbianism and all these horrible sexual things to come out of me. It was mortifying. One of the most humiliating experiences. (There are many more.)

I realize too that many Christians grow up in a mold. I don't feel that I have, although growing up a Christian. One woman at my job asked me how I was, and I said "happy." She then told me, "It's not all about being happy." I suppose I did take more personal offense because I had dealt with a lot of years not being happy, and finally I was, and then I get told "It's not all about being happy." That was a plain weird comment. Although knowing what she meant... still! Like I was naive for saying I was happy. Not so much. Not after being molested and humiliated over and over and over again in life.

I have read how many other people have been hurt by church, I know! My initial experiences of following God were not church related, so I don't completely identify church in my own heart and head with the Jesus I've found I can trust. I do find peace when I focus on God, but church gives me anxiety. And although I think part of that is how I have been wounded, I don't think it looks the way God intended.

Handling death

2008-05-20T05:37:00.003-05:00

A question from Dominick

How do we handle it when someone we know and care about dies?

The reason I ask this question is because a good friend of mine died today. I guess it would have been easier if she had died from some kind of illness, but she died in a house fire at 6:45 a.m. this morning.

I saw her on Friday and we spoke a bit on Sunday and I was planning on going to see her at work on that day, just to mess with her a bit :) I am not telling you about my friend’s death to make you feel sorry for me or anything like that, it is just that I have to go to her funeral , when I find out what day it is, and i don't think I can handle that very well.

I have never had anyone this close to me before dying, plus the fact when I last saw her, she was smiling and laughing and now she is gone.

I am sure some of you asking why I am posting about my friend's death on an ex-Christian site. It is because I am a lifelong atheist and I wanted to know how other atheists handle it when someone close to them dies. I am also wondering if I am the only one that gets pissed off when Christians say things like. “Your friend is in a better place now,” “God only take the good ones young,” or “God as a special place in heaven for her.” When I go to her funeral, I have to listen a pastor, priest or whatever it is talk about what kind of person she was and how God was calling her home – a person that has never met my friend and knows nothing about her at all…

How am I going to be able to sit there and take that in when I know that bullshit is coming out of this person’s mouth, knowing full well that I will never see her smile again, never hold her in my arms again, and wonder why this good god these Christians keep on talking about would take my friend away in such a painful way.

Question about Christians and evolution

2008-05-17T06:32:00.003-05:00

A letter from Linda W

I am an ex-Christian; my brother is a fundamentalist Christian.

We were discussing evolution again...

He believes that animals evolved, but humans did not -- they were created. So, he believes in evolution, just not for people.

I had never heard this viewpoint before and I thought I had heard them all.

Is the new way for fundamentalist Christians to accept the fact of evolution, but just not for people?

Has anyone else ever heard this explanation?

This site is such a disappointment

2008-04-17T20:39:00.003-05:00

A letter from SUPERNOVA & AUBREYDAWN

THIS WAS FIRST WRITTEN AS A COMMENT POSTED ON "I HAVE EXPERIENCED GOD, BUT...". I WROTE ONE PREVIOUSLY (YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT ON ABOVE TITLE IF INTERESTED, BUT IT'S NOT IMPORTANT). THIS WAS GOING TO BE A SECOND COMMENT ON THAT POST, BUT I THOUGHT IT BETTER TO POST IT HERE.

I'm not sure why I joined this discussion. It's the first discussion or comment exchange I've been a part of on-line other than some with myspace friends; rarely. I wasn't looking for inspiration or validation when I logged in to this site. I just ran across it by accident; read a few comments, became irritated, and was provoked by stupidity (not ignorance, STUPIDITY) to comment. I too was a "born again christian" for 20 years of my life. I was sheltered. It took that long (20 years) before I was introduced to any other ideas. Believe it! And how were they introduced to me? My own reflections. Really. You just have to be willing to think honestly. So anyway, I was a "born again christian". I also spoke in tongues. But unlike some others, I'm willing to admit to you and myself; I FAKED IT, alot. I've felt god, spoken to him many times; until I found biology and chemistry and other sciences (my biology teacher in the christian school I attended did not believe in science). It was swift. It's not always easy to know what IS. But once we know something IS NOT; then, IT'S NOT. Like the earth is NOT about 6000 years old. We have dominion over the animals, about as much as they have dominion over us. We are just more selfish and cruel. The rainbow is not a sign or a promise from god to noah. It appeared countless times in countless places before god was ever imagined as the answer to anything. And god REALLY does NEVER heal amputees. All I'm trying to say is that this site is such a dissapointment. I mean, most of these people don't have it any more right than they had it before. They're just trying to switch ideas and change it up for themselves. They still don't care about honest evidence or about being reasonable. For the most part, it seems like this site is a bunch of superstitious wish-thinkers supporting other superstitious wish-thinkers in their search to find a different idea to be stupid about. Don't any of these people see? Religion or a god (as far as it concerns truth and morality) is not even a subject that should be on the table for debate. Reason and evidence destroy these ideas at the outset. Honest research and honest answers and honest progress; that's all I'm interested in. Out of 30-something comments, I only found JACKIE and TELMI to make any sense. Is this site to even be acknowledged by atheist? A site full of unsure ex-christians telling unsure, questioning-christians to keep asking questions; and supporting them by saying that their questions will either lead them further away from or closer to god. What does that benefit? Tell them what you know, or go back to church.

If my first impression of this site is off base, will someone please explain it to me?

I have experienced God, but...

2008-04-16T04:18:00.004-05:00

Sent in by Steve Johnsons

I am a practicing Christian and I go to the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago Illinois. Every day I am surrounded by some of the most ignorant people that I know. As a matter of fact, I only have one friend who confronts the tough questions of Christianity, like the origin of evil and some other tough ideas.

I have been questioning my faith for a few weeks now. It's not that I don't have the "willpower" to believe, if you want to say that. It's whether I "want" to believe anymore. The "world" has become much more appealing to my eyes, and God, who does not communicate to me, has become less appealing.

I am sick and tired of these fucking ignorant answers I get from every Christian I know. It seems as though they believe in God with no evidence, which is stupid. Why would anyone believe in something they can't see or have at least not experienced.

I have experienced God, or so I think. I have cried in worship, I have spoken in new tongues. I have begun to doubt all of these experiences and am wondering if they were all just emotion. I wonder, does Christian music just have very emotional music patterns? I can listen to some music and immediately begin to cry.

Anyway, is there anyone I should talk to on this site? As I am having many doubts. What I want though, is not for someone to try and entice me to be a non-Christian, but only to encourage me to think rationally about some things. I have found that Christians are some of the most irrational thinkers I know. When i try to engage many in conversation, they are just retarded. Anyone I should talk to?

Thanks.

johnsonsDOTsteve[AT]gmailDOTcom

Spiritual idiots

2008-04-11T06:33:00.004-05:00

From Rev Bob Pyle, MA

As a nondenominational minister, I am disturbed and enraged by the fact that many people who leave the Church do so because of the dumb actions of certain believers. The idea is to concentrate on God, and not his alleged flock.

A classic case to make my point is the organization CUFI (Christians United for Israel), which is led by a self-deluded, spiritual idiot named John Hagee. His big thing is we are to nuke Iran. This is to precipitate a violent response from Muslims, and in the aftermath, Christ is supposed to return to establish His kingdom.

There is NOT one word in Scripture to support nor validate this stupidity on the part of Hagge & his flock. Therefore, I strongly recommend you give thought that with "friends" such as Hagee & his biblical illiterates who are quite willing to commit murder, Christ does not need any enemies.

Enough said.

tag: John Hagee, Nuke Iran, CUFI,

I want to belong

2008-04-05T19:36:00.004-05:00

From Meranda F

How do you deal with people who don’t agree with you or threaten your position on life with good solid evidence? Do you just walk away defeated with a plain face? What about when you feel hurt or offended that your ideas or way of life just don't seem to stand up to theirs?

Seems like every time I take up a new position, I get beaten down for it, because it isn’t the "right" position. I used to be atheist, but there was so much negativity expressed toward it, and I just wanted to feel at peace with my decision. I knew that I didn't believe in a god, but even if there was a god, I wanted to chose how I would deal with it. I didn't want anyone choosing for me.

So I turned to secularity because it seemed to be the perfect fit for my beliefs: no religion in government, no proselytizing others, and freedom to do as I choose so long as I don't hurt others.

I wonder, is it that I really don’t believe in a god, or am I sick of conventional ideas on how to worship a god? Or maybe I’m just sick of the idea of god.

I don’t want to worship or participate in what is generally accepted as belief and worship, especially in organized religion. It would be wrong to call myself Christian because I don’t believe in the bible or its mythical characters and because it is associated with so much negatively, closed mindedness, inconsideration, domination and fundamentalism. But I want to belong to something. I've belonged to something my entire life!!!!

Are there sites out there that explain it all?

Honestly, I’m shocked when I come across atheists/secularists who hate GLBT people, who don’t understand a woman’s right to choose or who support creationism in schools. If any of you are out there, how does that make any sense? What’s worse is when they tell me I’m deluded.

Any Idea's out there!?

True Christians don't ...

2008-04-03T03:55:00.003-05:00

From Gloria

I'd like to comment on your following statement:

"My point is that many Christians who arrive here do not obey the dictates of their own religion. They post on this site with beams in their eyes howling at Dave to remove the speck in his. They claim a loving god and can neither give a convincing argument for the claim based upon the contents of their faith nor the example of their own behavior. They call Dave hateful and promise him nothing but Hell." -- ref

1. There are many people who call themselves Christians. Christ lends respectability and the image of being a "nice guy" to a person's identify. Many people simply fake it. I suspect that many of the fakers actually believe they're Christians.

2. True Christians don't write hateful e-mail. They do not condemn people to Hell.

Please don't confuse charlatans -- who just want to argue (because your opinion differs from what they pretend to believe) -- with true Christians.

God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and Salvation are very, very easy to understand. Little children can grasp the concept. But He isn't forcing anybody to take what's being offered. It's your "free gift," but only if you want it.

In closing: I will uphold your right to be wrong. You're entitled to believe as you will. I only ask that you consider that "real" Christians aren't sitting around composing hate mail to anybody.

Oh. And on that request for a $10 donation from "True Christians . . ." LOL Nice try. That was a good one. I got a kick out of that.

Best Regards,
Gloria

GOD SAID IT; I BELIEVE IT; END OF STORY

2008-03-30T15:47:00.002-05:00

Hi from Ontario Canada:

I am an atheist with a capital A. I belong or attend several free-thought type groups including FFRF and attend their conventions.

My wife's attitude is "GOD SAID IT; I BELIEVE IT; END OF STORY".

I find it very frustrating to live with someone who will not even consider your views or will not engage in honest conversation.

How do others in my position deal with the above situation when parting is not an option because of grandchildren.

Thanks

Snabag

Seeking a spiritual foundation

2008-03-30T01:46:00.003-05:00

From Kevin

I left Christianity approximately a year ago. I came to Christianity after having a conversion experience that was very powerful when I was 18. I initially participated in a Pentecostal church and then ended up leading an emergent church. I was a Christian for 16 years and I was the main leader of a church when I left. At the time of my de-conversion I could no longer intellectually sustain many of the core assertions of Christianity. I have had numerous supernatural type experiences in my life and as a Christian I found the presence of the Holy Spirit very powerful and reassuring.

Since I have left the church I have sought for a suitable spiritual foundation. I have found perennial philosophy very appealing intellectually. However, I have encountered nothing that seems to compare to the power, love and insight that I experienced as a Christian (experiencing the Holy Spirit).

I still can't hold up the core theological components of Christianity. However, due to the spiritual experiences I had as a Christian I am still gripped regularly by the possibility that there may be something more to it (a thought that leads me to significant distress because I reject Christianity intellectually though seem to embrace it spiritually).

I thought that the power I experienced whilst a Christian could be experienced in similar ways through meditation or something, but it doesn't seem to be so; I am left feeling spiritually empty and confused spiritually.

Do you know of others who have gone through similar de-conversion experiences? Is there information you could provide that could assist me? What is your opinion?

I would like assistance, please.

I am terribly CONFUSED and afraid

2008-03-27T05:17:00.014-05:00

A letter from Kim

I am 51 years old, and was raised as a Protestant. I "converted" to Catholicism when I got married for the second time 22 years ago. I always felt guilty because I didn't get much out of going to mass. A lot of it seemed very redundant. Very recently, I have been questioning my faith. Not a very comfortable feeling. I am terrified to admit that if I don't believe in a higher being, I will for sure be thrown into the fires of Hell!

I am terribly CONFUSED and afraid. I consider myself a kind and compassionate person (I work as a patient care technician in a Catholic hospital!), and just because I am questioning whether or not God exists doesn't mean I should be condemned for eternity! I don't dare to talk to my husband about these feelings because his faith in God is very strong. I am not saying that I don't believe there is a higher power, but if he/she/they were so loving then why does it seem that life is always such a struggle!!??

Please assure me that my frightful feeling about going to Hell will subside.

tag: ex-christian, bible, hell, judgment, de-conversion, skeptic, religious delusion, freethought

I am a christian

2008-03-13T21:42:00.002-05:00

From Brandon

I want you to know that just because you dont believe in God, doesnt mean he's not there. God loves you. Romans 5:8 says God demonstrates His love for us in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us. God has a love and a grace that is beyond human understanding. I am a christian obviously and I believe that Jesus Christ will be coming again and that He will take His people, the believers, with Him. I pray that you and the people who dont believe in Christ will turn before that day. If you want to ask me some questions or anything email me back.

Email: brandon.buck41@yahoo.com

I need some good responses to these Christian explanations

2008-03-07T05:54:00.003-05:00

From Beaster

Here is something that was in my school newspaper, The Daily Toreador, and some of the comments made by some Christians. I found it rather interesting, and I apologize in advance for the length. It's rather confusing how they have an excuse for everything it seems. What are ya'lls thoughts?

It really bothers me when people blame God for the bad things that happen in the world and say he doesn't care about us or he doesn't know how to deal with us.

First, let me establish that God is real and that he knows what he is doing. The first and best sources are the scriptures and the words of the prophets. They teach that God does live, that he cares about us and that he has a plan for all of us.

Unfortunately, some people think that the Bible is "out-of-date" and not applicable to today's problems. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe if people applied the teachings found in the Bible, there would be far fewer problems in our society.

For those who want more than the Bible as proof God exists, just look at the beauty that surrounds all of us. For example, spend a clear evening outside town and watch the sunset. Wait until the sky is fully dark, and look up at the night sky.

I reserve the right to laugh and snicker if you think someone else can do a better job than the Master Painter.

Or you can take a road trip across the country. Just look at how the scenery changes, how trees appear before your eyes and give way to mountains that then become prairies. The human eye, which takes in everything around it, is more perfect than any camera ever invented.

Even Charles Darwin said, "that the eye ... could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest sense."

I don't understand how someone can look at nature and not see a divine hand involved. The doubter requires too much when he asks for a sign beyond the miracles of creation.

The passage of time, even long intervals of time, is not a "cause" and provides no answers without an intelligent designer. God knew what he was doing when he put this earth together and placed us on it.

This brings me to my second point. If God made the world, he made all the good and evil in it too, right? No. There is a simple concept which should be understood: Everything good comes from God and everything evil comes from the devil Yes, if God is real, so is the devil, and it is the devil who is responsible for tempting men to rape and blow up buildings and all other evils that make the evening news.

So if God is good, then why does he allow such bad things to happen? The answer is simply this: One of God's greatest gifts to us is our free agency. We are free to do as we please, even if our choices hurt others. This life is a test, and God will not intervene or remove the tests until the close of the examination.

Some people think the World Trade Center's twin towers would still be standing if it weren't for religion. I say they never would have been built if it weren't for religion.

During the years, countless atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, but this is neither because of God nor his influence - it is because of the lack of God in our lives. We continue to remove him from our society, and then we wonder why we have so many problems.

It is naive to think it is God who made "a very cruel world" and "good" people can have more morals than God. In the Bible, Joshua urged his people to "choose you this day whom ye will serve." To the extent we all choose wisely in this regard, the world will be a much better place.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

The Christian response was this:

He is able, but not willing. That doesn't make Him malevolent. This argument completely ignores the fact that without the potential for evil, love would hold absolutely no value. Because God is benevolent enough to grant us real, valuable love, He is willing to pay the price of having people reject Him and harm His own people.

Is it better to have a monarchy or democracy? If you say democracy, because you value people being able to decide things for themselves, then you support what God has done by giving us free will. If a monarch gives up his supreme power to allow each individual to make their own decisions, there is always the risk that those decisions will be bad. But, are we going to say that because some will make bad decisions, nobody should be allowed to decide anything? I'm gonna go ahead and stick with God's choice and say it's better to have freedom, in spite of the dangers.

I'll try to be more clear, then. If a person takes a gun and shoots another person, killing him, what is the source of the evil intention, the gun or the person wielding it? Any logical person would say the person is the one with intention, because that same gun lying on a table without the person would not have killed anyone. Now, if another person takes food from a store and gives it to a starving, impoverished person, which has good intention, the food or the person delivering it? Again, a logical person would say the person has the intention.

I'll use these two examples to illustrate my point. The food and the gun, without people, are not 'good' or 'evil' things. It takes people with 'good' and 'evil' intentions to talk about good and evil. So, if God did not allow us to have evil intentions, if we didn't have free will, then the fact that we are used for 'good' or to please Him wouldn't be special at all. Though we are used for good, we cannot 'be' good.

Most people would agree that stationary food, that isn't consumed, is no special thing. But, most people would also agree that the act of a person giving food to someone who needs it is a very good and lovable thing, something to appreciate. The problem is, we would not be able to appreciate it, or see anything special in it, if that same person didn't have the ability to commit evil, as well. It is the very fact that the person chose to do good, rather than evil, when he had the potential to do evil, that makes the act so special.

So, if we didn't have free will, real love could not exist. If we didn't have the potential to do evil, what we do would not be special or appreciated. Therefore, God had a choice, to give us free will and the ability of evil in order for real love to exist, or to have no evil and no love. God chose to let real love exist, in spite of evil, because of how valuable and beautiful it is.

I'm not a masochist, because I hate the manifestation of evil. But, I adore God's choice to allow the potential for evil, because it is the only way real love can exist. So, in effect, I am the opposite of a masochist, for loving the incidents of everything that is not harmful or hurtful. And, I realize that none of it would hold any value, would be worth loving, if not for the potential for evil. Does that help?

A person responded with the brutal examples of the atrocities listed in the Old Testament and how this "god" could love and permit those actions and the Christian response was as follows:

In Matthew 19, Jesus states that part of the Law of Moses was not in line with God's Law. In Hebrews 8, the fact that the Law of Moses had errors is attributed to men, and shows that the only reason we even have a New Testament was for the very problems you, George, complain about. Your arguments speak more about a form of Judaism than Christianity.

If you want to argue against Christianity, you'll have to show how the rejection of those atrocities is a bad thing, because that is much of what Christianity and the New Covenant are about. If you continue to complain about Old Testament perversions of God's Law, you're being more Christian than you think.

Again, What are ya'lls thoughts?

It's a big old world without god

2008-02-18T09:15:00.002-05:00

From L.E.B.

I was only a Christian for a few years, of my own choosing, and I am glad my parents were a-religious. They didn't brainwash us to anything except treat other people nicely. I did the same with my own kids and though sometimes I worry they don't "fit in," they all know how to think logically.

I don't hold a lot of animosity toward the ‘church,’ anymore. I was a Jesus-freak back in the day, mostly Four Square Gospel -- sister Amiee's church. I am, however, still pissed off that the pastor of my home church embezzled money to buy land for himself; I worked damn hard for the tithes I faithfully donated each payday. I had already left the church by the time they found out about that, so it wasn't like I had to face him or anything.

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who profess the loudest about morals or whatever are the ones who end up in sleazy sex scandals or run off with the money from the poor box or molest children. Why is that? The main thing that finally turned me off the church was the hypocrisy and the greed.

But then there was the doubting that there is a god, which is a totally different thing than leaving the people in church. It is the idea of leaving the idea of god behind, and I am still not sure about that sometimes. As my uncle said, “It's a big old world without god -- kind of scary.” What he said is true, and there is some kind of emotional support about having that imaginary friend in the sky that you can depend on. Right now I am considering the agnostic vs. the atheist thing and not sure where I stand. The flying spaghetti monster not withstanding, it would be nice if there was a god and it was as nice as I wanted it to be, but -- yeah -- wanting it to happen doesn't make it real

About that crazy Marc who wants to convert us all back to his nut cult of some version of Christianity (all religions are nut cults, really). Well, I wonder if he is just scared that we all are right, and there is no god and he's been basing his life on a lie. If so, that kind of thinking that tends to make you defensive. Fear is a big motivator, so that's were you need to go with him. Unless of course he just needs to take his meds anyway, in which case there's not a damn thing anyone can do for him, poor guy. All those other saviors who try to re-convert us, they are either: a) scared shitless that we're right or b) so thoroughly convinced and worried about us all (god bless 'em) that they just want us to be saved-and-happy-and-live-with-god-in-heaven-forever!

Anyway, this is a very worth-while site. Are there others like it? If not, that's surprising, huh? I wish you all the luck with the site. Good luck to all trying to get over what the whack jobs have done to their heads.

I try to think of my time as a Christian as a stepping stone to enlightenment (don't ask me what I mean by that; I don't know), but I have moved on, mostly, although TEEVEE preachers and arrogant sexist preachers still piss me off a lot.

Have fun!

A few words of caution

2008-01-21T18:15:00.000-05:00

A letter from William

While I am 100% behind your endeavours to bring common sense and enlightenment to the religious masses, I would just like to add a few words of caution:

Either in your Audio, your Video, or your written text take every care not to come accross as arrogant, self assured and demeaning:

In fact you may be well advised to take on an old Christian principle and be "HUMBLE" as you march forward into the light of reason leaving behind the religious zealots, biggots and hypocrites struggling in your wake:

It is possible to be humble and proud if you get the mixture right:

Stir Carefully:

Regards

William