.: posted 3/27/2008 ::: by webmdave :::   

 notabarbie wrote:

Kim-
So many of us here have been right where you are. In my experience the fear did subside, in fact, the fear of hell doesn't exist for me anymore. The fear you have is caused by the indoctrination you went through as a child. It is hard to shake, but the more you think and learn and grow you will continue to see how ridiculous the doctrine of hell is. Hang in there and keep coming here for support. As I was told when I began this journey, "it will get better," and it does.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Kim,
The more you study and think, the deeper the understanding will be that these teachings (about god) are simply not true. It's gonna be OK.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Andrew wrote:

Kim,

I sympathize, but you need to be a realist in the brutal world.

The fact is, whether you have a fear of hell or not is irrelevant.

Many things exist that people are not afraid of. Many people have illnessess that will kill them shortly, and they don't even know it.

We have to face the fact that the universe may not be the way we like it to be.

Hell may in fact exist. The fact that we don't like the idea or don't want to be afraid of it is irrelevant.

You might dispense with the idea, lose all concern, and have a wonderful life.

But hell would still be waiting, in the end.

Face it, whether you like it or not.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

Andrew, you're a piece of shit.

Dave, I realize that you probably feel it's good to have these imbeciles hanging around so that you can show others how easy it is to refute them. And some of you may enjoy beating them up, as compensation for what you all went through (and I'm not saying for a moment that you aren't entitled), but this woman is in need of real help, and he's just feeding her fears. I wonder also how many people like her lurk without posting or commenting, and are swayed by the rantings of people like Andrew, Refractor, dogeat, etc.

I'm certainly not telling you how to run your blog, but I think you may want to consider blocking these people just as soon as they show up. In the meantime, I 'd definitely delete Andrew's comment and block any further ones.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 CarlK wrote:

Kim,

You are confused and afraid, and I don't blame you. You cannot be otherwise until you resolve the struggle between your fear of hell and reality as you perceive it.

Us ex-christians have resolved the struggle in favor of reality. We know, for a whole lot of reasons, that hell is an invention designed to force us into, for lack of a better word, conformity.

What God of all humanity consigns 3/4 of all persons on this earth to hell for approximately the reason that they have never heard of God?

The alternate answer is simply that there is no God, and there is no hell. That is the obvious answer to most of us on this list, however we came to that answer.

Only you can resolve your confusions and fears, but we will support you. Keep in touch with us about your progress.

And best wishes to you.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

Cipher,

The ">forums section of this site provide a more controlled discussion environment for exactly the reasons you stated.

This blog is more-or-less the front door to the site, and frankly, the more these people post, the more insane their rantings come off.

The effect that fundamentalist Christianity has on a person's personality is truly no different than what happens to the fanatical Muslim. While they preach their loving GOD who threatens horrific torment in hell, they illustrate the insanity that is Christianity.

Anyone who de-converts will be facing much more vitriolic resistance in our culture than that experienced on this website. Anyone who really wants to escape the mind control of Christianity might as well get used to it. There is no minority more hated than the minority that does not believe in the majority religion.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

To Kim and Andrew,
May I suggest that both of you do some research on the origins of Christianity. An honest inquiry would be a good start to understanding the facts regarding the questions about the doctrine of hell.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

I'm just concerned that she may focus on what he says. And it won't be long before Refractor/Marc and dogeat notice this thread, then they'll go to town on her.

I hope that a lot of others will chime in to support her. I was never a Christian, so I don't know what to say; I don't feel qualified. I like to come here, because, frankly, I think these lunatics are treated with too much civility on other sites, such as de-conversion, and even Loftus' blog. There's far too much acceptance of these people and their antics in this culture, and everyone is scared to death of them. I like to see you guys sticking it to the fundies. It's a guilty pleasure.

(Well, actually - I don't feel guilty at all. It's just a pleasure!)

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 muttmutt wrote:

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.


I grew up catholic, and protestant I learned about its history. Here is something to think about: If God would throw you in hell for not worshipping him/her then that God is an egotistical tyrant. I would rather live my live as an Agnostic than make that type of commitment to a tyrant. (What kind of weak minded fool worships anyways? Like lenny bruce says: think for yourself, question authority) some of the greatest minds of all time are NOT christian or muslim, think about that for awhile

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 eejay wrote:

Kim, I think you need to get into the forums and do some readin there. There is a section on FAQ and one specifically addresses the fear of hell. Some of the material there os VERY comforting. Like many deconverts the fear of hell for me was very real, but once you understand how and why x-tianity uses this as a tool to keep you bonded, you do begin to let go of that fear. If you can continue to educate yourself I have no doubt that you will realize how out of kilter x-tianity really is. Most of the people on this site will support you, and there are forums that x-tians are not allowed on. Please explore those options and like many of the previous posters said, things will get better.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

The problem faced by skeptics who deign to discuss religion with believing Christians is that the skeptic feels the need to come at the subject from an evidential position while the Christian feels compelled to approach the issue from an emotional angle.

Emotional and rational typically don't mix well.

In my opinion, there is little chance of getting through to many Christians by using logic or rational presentation of material. Many Christians are so addicted to the emotional high that religion can afford that no amount of logic, evidence, facts, figures, etc., will make a dent. Therefore, I think a good emotional knock-down-drag-out can quite often do more good than pages of well presented material.

Notice if you will that the Christians rarely if ever post on articles that are logical and well written. They choose instead to post on personal testimonial type articles which contain more emotion.

Religious people seem to make decisions based on emotion and tend to see things through an emotional lens. Therefore, they haunt the emotional posts, like this one, and ignore the more intellectual discussions.

They are addicted to the emotional rush, and that's why they come here. They think they are spreading the good news, but really it's the emotional high they are seeking. And since they only respond to emotion, and only know how to make emotional appeals, it is our challenge to couch reality in emotion so they can comprehend what is being said. Approaching these believers from only a position of logic is, I believe, ineffective.

I'm not saying all Christians fit this right-brain-hemisphere mold, but many of the Christians who troll this site seem to fit the description.

Anyway, when a person is finally able to engage the left hemisphere of the brain in a more honest fashion, that same person will shed the fears imparted by fantasy and "belief."

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Songsofdune wrote:

Kim,all i say to you is that take it one step at a time>For some people It may take Months < even Years To get Over Thier Fear Of This Made Up Place Called Hell.but with Time you will come to understand that it was created as a way to Controll people and keep Order..Nothing like Fear To keep People In Line.

Cipher, Like you i don't like the nonsense that seems to always come from Andrew,But he as the right like any of us state his point of view, Like the saying Goes. i May Not like what you have to say, But i will defend your right to say it with my life.

To Andrew ..That is One sad little world you live in..We only live once.. so instead of living a live of Fear, Go out and enjoy this Great World Of ours

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Kim,
Keep asking yourself these tough questions.

"..Very recently, I have been questioning my faith. Not a very comfortable feeling. I am terrified to admit that if I don't believe in a higher being, I will for sure be thrown into the fires of Hell!..."

It IS very painful and terrifying at first. Especially when the people around you fail to agree with your conclusions. You have the the responsibility and intelligence to think for yourself. Don't allow fear to control your life. You deserve better.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Stephen_Richard_Webb wrote:

Just remember that hellfire is merely a tool to enforce conformity. No one knows what hell is, because it is incomprehensible - that is, it is never to be comprehended or realized by anyone. If you believe in an all loveing, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god, then there is no place for evil or even hell anywhere at all. Hell, and evil are not more than an illusion enforced by cruel men who only seek power over the masses - in death, perfect peace is realized because we return to our first nature, we return to the source from whcih all things come, and that is perfect peace profound. There is no hell, there is only peace after life.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Christopher wrote:

Kim,

Parental and societal indoctrination with all this fear of god and accordance, less I face "his wrath," was attempted upon me (and most of us here), but the message always seemed very askew to me from the onset, so I cannot speak directly of your fear of hell, but I did flush away fear of demons which was so heavily pushed on me.

Be clear that fear (emotionalism) can be easily overcome with knowledge. Lack of knowledge (fear of the unknown - and fear of idealogical deities and their wrath) can cause plenty of internal issues. Educating yourself on the origins of these falsities will help cleanse those anxieties.

There are many documentaries on the topic that have been shown on History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic and more, and their online stores can provide you with said products. Also, there are many educational websites that delve into this area.

"Hell" was merely a term used to refer to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, meaning death and no more. They would set this afire each night to cleanse the stench. Many scholars kid how they've been to hell. No big deal. The original Jewish (Hebrew) meaning was only grave - death, but not a fiery, tormenting place.

The hellfire promoted by the church was not cast until the 15th century when church leaders used this to scare people into staying into the faith. They took and used the fiery aspect as a scare tool to keep retention of the populace. They even conjured up a halfway house, "Purgatory," as to provide levels of prep and achievement. Quite silly.

The book of Revelation (a more vivid recap of the book of Daniel), was merely to ventilate the early Christian detest with Rome, the beast. The term "666," was the numerical equivalent to Nero, regarded at the time as the antichrist, the devil. But of course, none of this is true. Ever, since, foolishly, there has never been a Christian generation that did not feel that the end times that Jesus spoke of was in their time, when in fact, Jesus was referring to his own time, hoping for a revolt against Rome, which cost him his life. (Plenty of information available on all this.)

This is just scraping the surface, but the point is that there was never a hell to fear. The whole thing is a sham. Like others have said here, the more you learn, and the more you program your mind to digest rational, evidential information, and truly discard the emotional aspect of how you were/are programmed, all that fear will assuredly subside.

You will see this.

There is nothing coming to you for your disbelief. No one is going to harm you for this - ever. The ONLY ones talking of harm to you are the very ones that claim they have a message of unconditional love and understanding, ironically. Does this seem logical? Think about this.

Research the origins of the hell stories and the motives of those promoting them, and you will quickly overcome all fear. I promise.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Christopher,
Great "snapshot" of the hell doctrine!

Understanding the beginnings of these crazy teachings is what broke the grip of fear that kept me chained to my Catholic childhood fears.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Steven Bently wrote:

Andrew said, "Hell may in fact exist." May? In fact? Exist?

There may well be in fact Androids on Jupitor ready to come here to suck our brains out because we do not believe and worship their god.

An invisible hell; created by a god that no one has ever seen, a lake of fire that no one has ever seen, told to have existed by a resurrected dead man that no one has ever seen, to burn invisible souls that no one has ever seen.

Andrew what are the possibilities of "may exist" 1 in 1 billion, 1 in 1 trillion of a hell may exist?

Kim don't worry, a fire has no effect on invisible things, an invisible soul cannot feel pain, cannot see, nor hear, even if such a thing could exist.

A fire is a physical thing, which cannot have an effect on metaphysical things. The reason they invented hell is to scare people is because we can feel the heat of fire, we know that fire can hurt us, but when we die, there is no more feelings, pain, fear, no more nothing, because our physical bodys and brain no longer functions, it's just a total blank, complete nothingness, we become like we were before we were born, can you remember before you were born, no because your brain did not exist.

To believe what people wrote down on papyrus over 2000 years ago, like Andrew, they thought the world was flat, and that the heart was the center of all thought and emotions, the word brain is nowhere in the bye-bull, why did not the creator know about the brain? Because they just wrote down what they believed and heard to be true, they never wrote down what they knew to be true, because they were ignorant barbarians.

Andrew is pretending to believe that a snake once had vocal cords, and donkeys can talk, and a burning bush can talk, that the world is flat, flying chariots, winged horsemen, and the heart has eyes, lips, and ears, the heart can become hard and soft invisible beings and demons and an invisible Satan that wears a red suit and has a pointed tail is in control of our minds. To Andrew, these things may exist, or they may not according to him, he don't know he's guessing and hoping and wishing it's true.

The buy-bull is the doctrine of sick demented minds, we have absolutely no way of knowing what the mental state of those people who wrote the bull-shit 2000 years ago, the holy spirit may be a stick of hashish laced with opium or LSD.

Andrew and all other self-professed Jebus idiots are just parroting nonsense that they choose and pretend to believe from a book that was brought over here by the early settlers, the voyage was such a strenuous trip that the only insurance they had was a buy-bull, and the American people have been told that the Bible is the absolute truth and contains all the truth and wisdom and knowledge available to human kind, but everyone's common sense automatically knows this is not true, that's why the doctrine has to be re-enforced constantly every Sunday, to re-state and remind people of the lie that they are trying to believe is true.

Truth stands alone, truth does not need to be re-enforced with threats of a hell fire and a reward for the believers.

Kim follow your own common sense and intellectual honesty, common sense and honesty is nowhere to be found in the bye-bull, that's the reason you're here, the wool can only be pulled over one's eyes for so long and your common sense is telling you this.

Kim, listen to Kim.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

I really should not be coming here so often. Reading some of this shit is a danger to my emotional well-being.

I am, of course, talking about andrew's post. What a good xristian he is. So full of jewzoo's love.

andrew, we have a woman coming in here, hurting inside, and all you can do is preach your despicable filth; your mindless jew-superstition. And you call yourself a man? HMMM? You are a miserable excuse for a man. My honest suggestion is for you to consider transsexual surgery. Try again as a girl--you fucked up as a boy.

I began to live when I turned my back on vermin like you. We all did. I have loaded better shit than you into a John Deere manure spreader.

And Kim........the fear subsides. Yes. Maggots like andrew have one intention, and that is to keep you on your knees, where they are.

Most of us are in here because we shared, to varying degress, your experience in the churches. We looked for help and got religion. Right. From assholes like andrew.

And I share ciper's sentiments. I wish the WM would delete this scum and send him back to his store-front snake handlers.

And Kim, I am 60 years old, and just wise as hell. Once I calm down, I will assert that it is good to come here and talk and share. You just have to endure losers like andrew.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Steven Bently wrote:

This post has been removed by the author.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 KCinBAMA wrote:

“and just because I am questioning whether or not God exists doesn't mean I should be condemned for eternity!”
EXACTLY! You have hit it on the head! You deserve ANSWERS to your questions, NOT eternal condemnation for simply asking the question!

“I don't dare to talk to my husband about these feelings because his faith in God is very strong.”
WARNING: I would also tread lightly in this area. Once you figure out what you do and don’t believe and why, then, approaching your immediate friends and family is another topic entirely. Read how others here have handled it first.

“I am not saying that I don't believe there is a higher power”
Good, keep and open mind. People can “pretend” to believe, but, you cannot make yourself “believe” anymore than you can make yourself love or hate. Although, you can pretend and fool people, you know yourself whether you do or you don’t. “To thine own self, be true.”

“Please assure me that my frightful feeling about going to Hell will subside.”
My interpretation of John 3:16 reads something like:
For a supernatural being so loved all humans, past, present, and future;
that he gave, for human sacrifice, and only for a 3 day period, his only begotten son;
that whosoever does not believe in him, regardless of His refusal to provide empirical evidence of His existence, not for anything humans have done, but, for the crime of being descended from Adam and "born" into sin;
not simply be killed, but to be subject to excruciating physical pain continuing without interruption forever. (KC version)
As a result of the above, I have concluded that the good God of the Bible does not exist. However, I cannot explain the origin of life or the universe; therefore, a god might have done it. But, I do not believe he interacts with our physical universe in any measureable way leading me to wonder “is god evil” or just apathetic to our plight. It is easier for me to believe in a nonexistent or evil god ahead of a good god. And any god that is not good, is not worthy of my worship.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Steven Bently wrote:

ryan, that was so funny, I hope you keep coming back. Thanks for the laughs!

Andrew is just like all xtains, and we once were, terribly misinformed.


BTW, Christopher is correct, great comment Chris. Thank you!

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

your mindless jew-superstition

In the interest of fairness - Christianity doesn't really represent a Jewish myth, and hasn't for many centuries. It was based on a Jewish myth, the coming of a messiah - one of a number of ideas prevalent in Judaism at the time - but it went way off track and got paganized very early on. Jewish understanding of the "prophecies" in the OT that supposedly pertain to Jesus are understood VERY differently by Jews.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 thejcoolmoonster wrote:

I went through something similar about a year ago, nightmares, heavy sweats, constant anxiety. It lasted real strong about three weeks, and gradually subsided over the next month or so and finally disappeared maybe...six months later?

I grew up xtian and am in my twenties though, you've spent a great deal longer in. I think you'll make it out ok though. It really sucks, but it's all going to end eventually even if it takes awhile. There is an end.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 jimearl wrote:

Kim, I join others and say that you will lose your fear of hell as time goes on. I have two sons and I love them very much. If I had any fears that there might be a literal hell, I would never take the chance with my boys. However, both are atheists because they have no fear of hell either. We all live in reality and fantasy and delusions have no control over us. Join us and think for yourself. Cheers, Jim Earl

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

cipher, believe me, I know what you are saying. But at a personal level, I see no difference between xristianity and judaism. xristianity never let go of the angry jew god. The xristians fiddled around with their new-fangled theological jargon: "atonement; justification; sanctification; predestination" but the jewgod was the same. That was one of the big breaking points for me. I kept getting this lip-service about freedom from the law, only to encounter the same bronze-age war god with his threats and accusations. If any xristian wants to talk to me about his god of love and grace, my response would be that any god I would worship would have nothing against me, never has, and never will. Anything short of this is the same old shit, call it as you will.

Really, the only honest xristian in this world is fred phelps. He insists xristianity is a religion of hate, and I believe him.

And thank you stephen. I am laughing now, but when I posted I could have chewed marble.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

Ryan,

I agree with your characterization of the Old Testament god, but there is at least one important distinction between Judaism and Christianity - Jews aren't running around threatening everyone else with hell. We've got a few fundamentalists (a minority within a minority), but no one takes them seriously, and they keep pretty much to themselves; other than the occasional exception in New York, they don't get involved in the political process. They aren't trying to take away your civil liberties, because they aren't interested in you (they aren't even really interested in me!).

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 the-walruss wrote:

Kim,

The solution is simple. Do you, in your own mind, deserve hell? Have you ever done anything so hideously wrong that you deserve an eternity of torment? Are you positive that no sane judge on the planet would have you tortured for even one lifetime for the actions that you've taken and that you're taking?

Now think about "God," should you still choose to believe in him. A creature of infinite judgement and mercy, who knows your every sin. Would he be more irrational than those judges?

There are only four real purposes of punishment, and only three are legitimate.

1) To rehabilitate. Punishment in some cases is used to show that an action is wrong, and to discourage a person from taking part in that action. With Hell, since you are never let out, there is no rehabilitation.

2) To remove a threat to society. True, Hell removes supposedly "evil" beings from heaven, but annihilation would serve just as well, and without the needless suffering.

3) To deter. To keep others from committing the same crime. This is Hell's supposed use, but then the bible teaches us that we are all sinners, so we can't be detered from sin. Also, in order to be effective as a deterent, we need to see it in action, and Hell takes place on a different plane of existance or something, so we can't see the magnitude of the punishment. Besides, hell is used to deter those who already believe in God, not those who don't. Those who don't believe in Christianity don't believe in Hell either. Teaching about Hell is quite literally preaching to the choir. It is the most useless deterent in existance.

That leaves the fourth reason for punishment- Sadism. God punishes you because he likes to. Now is that the God you know and love? Think about it.

I encourage you NOT to seek answers in the Bible, there aren't any on this issue. Just seek answers in your own mind. Do you deserve hell, and would the God who you love send any living thing to an eternity of torment.

Oh, and Andrew, don't be a dick.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Hellbound Alleee wrote:

Kim,

You're not the problem. You're not the bad one. And you might even already know that. You probably know where the problems lie. The question you ask has never been adequately answered by the church or by theologians, because it cannot be adequately answered. You're not the first to ask, and you won't be the last. And yet it won't be answered.

Because you know that the faith is "supposed" to make you feel really good, all of the time, and the reward is supposed to be ultimate feeling good. That's pretty much called Hedonism. They give you this "choice:" either love God or go to the eternal suffering God made. Think about it: who created the universe and all of its laws? God. So therefore the rule that people don't love him suffer for all eternity was made by God.

Would you vote for a politician who said, "If you vote for me, you'll be happy and feel good all the time. If you don't, you have to go to this torture chamber I made for these creatures no one has ever seen and can be attributed to natural brain activity in sleep."

Is that a good leader, or is that a cruel monster?

I think you know this one. Could you live with yourself supporting a cruel monster just because it's more comfortable? I suppose you could. It makes more sense than believing in the religion because it frightened you into thinking that you'll be tortured forever.

But really, Kim. A place where dead people come back to life and roll around in a lake of fire? Come on, girl, do you really believe that? Isn't it crazy, just a little bit? Doesn't it sound more like something they believed back in medieval times?

It might be better to not live in fear of nutty things like that, wouldn't it?

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Andrew wrote:

Kim, what makes you think these people care about you? They are miserable haters and they want to see you miserable too.

These liars will try to tell you that all existence, life, mind and reason itself are the product of mindless forces.

If that is the case, then someday the biochemical processes in your meat brain will cease, and that will be the end...of no more consequence to the world that if another bottle of diet coke went flat.

Of course, their views have never been demonstrated, and atheisms pretensions to a scientific superiority are a lie. THE BIG LIE.

The world doesn't care about you, and can't help you if it did.

Your only hope of a future is with the Lord Jesus Christ.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

Your point is well taken, cipher. When I use phrases like "jewgod" I am referring to the crazy, bloodthirsty yahweh in the old testament war stories. Whole ethnic groups slaughtered off; men; women; babies; livestock. I am also talking about such stories as the flood: this wierd little devil wasn't getting his ass kissed as often as he pleased, so he went completely nuts and killed everthing on earth, except for a few animals and some proto-jews of dubious worth.

xristians, of course, want to believe that their god is an improvement; that god "loved the world" (john 3:16) Go back to the war stories--when did god start loving the world? At what point in judeo-xristian history did yahweh become a kinder, gentler god? Unless god did a fast personality make-over, he is still that same god. It chills my bones to hear the religious right cheering as god sends Katrina, the Tsunami, and dead American soldiers to punish us.

I would say that hell is going the jewgod one better. And thanks again.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

andrew, I thought I caught a whiff of you. Back again?

This will be brief. I don't need a lot of space for this.

Look, jerk, the burden of proof is on you. You say that our side has not been demonstrated. So what? If you are pushing your jew religion, you must assume burden of proof. We need to prove nothing. If you want to think that you have proved your god's existence, fine. Now you have to prove that this god is indeed the one and only jewgod. Lots of luck.

About your third paragraph: this life is all we need. I'm happy with it. If death and non-existence frightens you, that is your problem. That is what keeps your superstition alive. You can't face your sordid life without the jewzoo.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 THE ACE wrote:

KIM: People like Andrew are the
reason you should ditch Christianity. People who are so
determined to control how you think and how you live, and all from an ancient book based on the
lifestyles and superstitions of a
people who have been dead from two
to three thousand years.

Andrew, you call us haters?
The true hater of mankind is the
person who can't stand it unless
everyone lives and believes the
way he does, and will stop at nothing to accomplish that.
Personally, I don't care what you
believe or don't believe, its a free country. No one here is trying to convert you to freedom;
stop making a fool of yourself by
trying to convert others to Christianity.


Kim, the best of luck to you. You might want to check out some of the
books available here at ExChristian.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Spirula wrote:

(Hmmmm. Smells like ass around here.)
Oh, I see "Be skeered of the boogeyman" bed-wetter Andrew is back with more of his "booga-booga!". What a twit.

Anyway Kim, don't listen to that "eternal BBQ" crap those fundies like to spew. Radical Islam does the same thing, and you can see how destructive it can really be. Both fundy Xians and Muslims use fear to control the masses.

You should also note that meat-sacks like Andrew actually revel in the fantasy of heathens getting torched by his Sky Fairy, mainly because they have only fantasies to live for. Pathetic, evil fantasies. The kind you'd expect sociopaths to have.

You may have noticed that when you reject their mythologies they turn into that snotty little brat on the playground that doesn't get their way and screams "My big brother will beat you up!" before running away like the crybaby they are. All bluster no brains.

So, to WATB's Andrew&Co., just go back to praying to your Zombie-god and your theophagy fetish. It's the only thing you have.

Leave the thinking to the adults.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Sandy wrote:

Hi Kim : )

I can relate to the fear you speak of. I was riddled with it throughout my entire childhood up through age 19 when the JWs got ahold of me. The one thing they did to help was to alleviate my fear of hellfire by a lengthy study into believing the Bible their way.

Now this was some relief because, as a young child, I had no idea how it was that people did ordinary things like kept a job, ate a meal and did anything outside of sit around and worry about going to hell if that was in fact what could life could potentially hold. I'd ask people, "Do you believe in hell?" and they'd say "Yes" but they'd be off living their lives as if there was no hell up ahead when I thought we should all be quaking in our boots. I used to wish I weren't born for eliminating that horrible fear.

Now the JWs can systematically convince you using "your own copy of the Bible" that hell is something other than a place of permanent torture. And sure, it's great not to believe in a firey hell but as long as you have to believe that Bible is real, you still have to worry about God's anger management issues.

His sense of justice, you have to admit, is a bit scary. He required the Hebrews to make sacrifice of innocent animals to pay for the "sins" of humans. He allowed for multiple wives, 700 for Solomon, but don't hold that ark wrong or you will sorely piss him off! Curtains for you!

The entire old testament is pretty much a story of genocide after genocide to wipe out everything in the path of Israel. They of course had to kill everything male and anything female that had know the act of lying with a maile but of course, it's okay to keep the young virgins for themselves.

There were something like 600 laws that the poor Isrealites had to spend their entire life spans under, including the requirement for two young pigeons or two turtle doves to be sacrificed per woman per that time of the month. One bloody legacy!

Then just think of the Bible stories. One after another shows us a scary personality if we were to believe these are really the position God would take. Look at the story of Abraham and Isaac alone. Here's a man who spent his lifetime faithfully serving God, doing everything in exact obedience to him. He left everything he owned, left his kinfolk, turned down riches, hell, at age 99 he got himself circumcised per God's request. Then after all this show of faith, God needs to "test" Abraham's loyalty and asks him to go and "make please a burnt sacrifice" of his son Isaac? Is "God" insecure of what! Testing, testing, and more testing. I'm not really sure if you love me!

So, "God is love" and does any of that sound like perfect justice we could expect from God? Is it really reasonable that we, as humans, are so much more compassionate and just in our thinking than the divine creator? Or is it possible that all that stuff written in the "bible" is really the work of humans?

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

Very good, sandy. I would like to ask any fundamentalist--and indeed I have--"Is this the god you worship". This is the jewgod I keep talking about, a mad and vindictive tyrannt.

A fundie will dodge that question by saying that "that was the old covenant, and we live in the new covenant" as though going from the old to the new was like changing lanes on the interstate.

Now just a goddamned minute, says I. The jewgod took his old covenant really seriously. How many people were slaughtered off by the unwashed hordes of israel is beyond imagining. And then, suddenly, "god is love"? My, that was fast, but I want to know that,if god had plans to make a new covenant, why did he kill so many people under the old? When you kill people in the name of your politics or your religion, that is taking it seriously. If it was just going to be replaced, then why all the fuss?

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 the-walruss wrote:

Andrew, how dare you belittle our attempts at kindness and compassion.

Here somebody has come here for help, and I know that I at least am attempting to help them with my thoughts and opinions on the issue. You may disagree, but don't you dare claim that I am willingly deceiving or lying to anybody. I am doing no such thing.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Bear7 wrote:

Hi Kim

The roman catholic 'faith' creates insecurity because there is no assurance of salvation in it; you are a heretic if you believe you are saved. There are millions of people in the rcc trying (busting their gut in fear in many cases) to obtain salvation through the sacraments, prayers and other rituals. Most of them will only get to purgatory anyway...how sad!

Unlike rcc doctrine the Bible assures the believer of salvation and peace with God. It is a free gift from God. The sacrifice of Christ in the mass every week is a blatant error as he was sacrificed only once for the sins of mankind.

Also the rcc church disobey the second commandment because they have ommited it( do not make graven images e.g. statues).

life can be a struggle for us all at times. What you don't need is the crushing weight of guilt from a bogus theology to add to this.

I would recommend the book A Woman rides the Beast by Dave Hunt. This is an exilarating read yet quite heavy.

Keep asking questions and searching.

Cheers

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Hey Blandrew,

Your too late buttwad. This person (Kim)has a fully engaged brain and the will to use it.

You should try it some time.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

It sounds like Bear7 has got some of that real-true-correct-and oh so fuzzy and warm religion.

'Jesuslight' still sends you to eternal hell. 70 years here, and ETERNITY in hell.

(I'm with WM Dave on this one); Get use to it, Kim. The world is steeped in this crap and in every variety imaginable. BUT it's getting better for those who will think and learn.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Tara wrote:

Kim,

It WILL get better. I realized I was an atheist at the age of 11 or 12. If a child can make it through such a difficult time, an adult with all of your adult resources certainly can!

Once I accepted that there was no god, it was easy to accept that there was no devil. And knowing that the hell I was raised with (the "Catholic" hell) was created out of thin air hundreds of years after Jesus supposedly walked the Earth, well, it was the next logical step to accept that hell wasn't real, either.

Imagine a life with no fear of the afterlife. There is only this life and the need to do good in this life. Not for some reward in the afterlife, but for reward in THIS life. I do good because it's good for me and good for those I care about. My rewards are immediate.

And when I die? It will be just like before I lived. Where is the fear in that? There is no fear of what I will not be aware of.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Spirula wrote:

Yeah! Bear7 finally steps up to the plate to deliver the "No True Scotsman" speech.

Thanks Bear7. It's nice hear about this wonderful gift that, if you turn down, your pissy god will set you on fire and burn for fucking ever.

I'm sure you could tell by the name of the site that we probably never heard that sermon before.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Trancelation wrote:

Kim:

I don't feel that I can add anything to the comments regarding the emotional impact of questioning/leaving Christianity, but I will say anyway that when I read the Bible (three times, front to back) and came face to face with the concept that I would be punished for asking questions, I was at first confused and afraid, and then very, very, VERY angry. To this day the prospect of Hell does not frighten me one bit - it only serves to fill me with rage. I could list many poetic metaphors to describe this fury (ten-thousand suns, a darkness which no light can penetrate, a bottomless abyss in and endless wasteland at the beginning and the end of all creation), but suffice it to say that it gets my knickers in a twist. Religion is an emotional experience, devoid of logic and reason. Humans are the only part of the natural world that enslaves itself to this notion. By the same token, we are the only ones that can free ourselves from it.

I think of Hell sometimes. I still get angry over it. But, Kim, I want to ask you something: have you done any studying into Biblical contradictions? You may have already; i have no way of knowing. If hou haven't, there are MANY resources on the Internet concerning Biblical contradictions.

Just a few:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html

Think about it this way, Kim: if the Bible is wrong in one area, it can be wrong in another. If the Bible contradicts itself even ONCE, then it is not absolute. There are many apologetics out there that will clim they have an answer to these contradictions. Once you have examined the contradictions, and examine these so-called "answers" to them, you will see that the "answers" are, to be blunt here, full of crap. So we come full circle:

1. If there are contradictions in the Bible (which there are), we see that the Bible is not absolute.

2. If the Bible is not absolute, then how can its claim of a Hell be trusted?

I have been in a great many arguments with apologetics. In the end, the apologetic will rely on two strategies. First, they will tell you that their faith is not shaken even though you have pointed out a contradiction that they cannot answer, a vain attempt to anger your efforts to illustrate the contradiction and prove the believer wrong, and then tell you that they are sure God will answer it in time. Never mind that the apologetic has already claimed that the Bible HAS no contradictions - they will still rely on the EMOTIONAL impact of bringing up God.

Most apologetics will simply remind you that you are going to Hell.

How CONVENIENT.

But like I said, Kim, if you haven't already, you should look up Biblical contradictions. Either the Bible is wrong or God is lying, and such a being is not worthy of worship. Keep asking questions, keep studying, keep opening your mind, and your fear of Hell will subside.

P.S. I am hoping to become a male nurse myself :)

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 The AntiChristian wrote:

Kim,
Don't listen to Andrew. He's an idiot.

Like you,I was brainwashed as a child in the Christian religion until I bailed at the age of 19. I am now 47.

I have mostly recovered from the insane indoctrination of the fear of Hell, but not entirely. Every once in a while, a little gnawing in the back of my brain says, "What if it's true?"

What Webmaster said about the intellectual/emotional aspect of religion is quite true. What I have found is the best way to overcome the fear of hell is to feed my intellect and not feed my fear.

If you study the history and mythology of the time of the alleged Jesus, as well as engage in a textual analysis of the new Testament, you will find that Jesus never existed.

It was all a hoax by the second century church leaders.
The gospels are fictions and the epistles are apocryphal ramblings by preachers who were in it for the money. (How many times in the epistles does Paul remind his churches to take a collection for him?)

The Christian church was invented to control peoples' minds and soak them of their cash - and they've been doing it for 2000 years.

Run, don't walk, away from the Christian faith.

Here are some books to get you started:

"The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty

"Jesus Never Existed" by Kenneth Humphreys

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

Kim, any gods worthy of the name would simply not bother with something as idiotic, barbaric and patently unlikely as Hell.

Any gods worthy of the name would actively welcome critical thinking and be proud of their 'kids' for finally growing beyond the reach of controlling, fear-mongering tyrants.

Yes, the fear does go away in time. Trust in your own goodness and be reassured by the love you experience in your day-to-day life.

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 sconnor wrote:

Hi Kim,

I have much empathy for you and I wish you all the best in your search.
Allow me to ease your heart, and put to rest your fears, of hell.

Christianity only encompasses 33% of the worlds population.
Of that percentage some of the christian sects and denominations do not adhere to the fire and brimstone doctrine of hell -- some don't even believe in hell, anymore.
That leaves the rest of the world; around 70% of people who do not believe In Jesus, they don't believe in being saved by Jesus, and do not believe in the christian or catholic doctrine of hell.They are comprised of other religions and the non-religious.

You have to ask yourself this very important question:
Why would god -- a god of love and mercy -- create his other 70% of earthly children, only to sadistically, torture them in the fires of hell, for an eternity, because they did not adhere to some archaic christian or catholic doctrine?

That would be the other 4.6 billion, of gods, earthly children, supposedly, destined to hell. This only encapsulates this moment, in time. Think of all the cultures, tribes, civilizations, throughout time, that did not adhere to the doctrine of being saved, from hell, by Jesus or christianity.

Is it even conceivable that a god of love and mercy would create, and then, cast the trillions of his earthly children, who do not believe in the doctrines of salvation, into hell? Can you imagine, all the people, families, poor lost souls -- all their hopes, loves, dreams, dashed to the everlasting fires of hell, because they did not think a certain way?

Think about it, and watch your worries melt away.

--S.

Major Religion Pie Chart
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Lance wrote:

Hi Kim,
Here is how I came to me lose my fear of hell.

It was when I realized that I could stand before a "good" god on judgment day and say that I could not believe in Christianity because I could not believe that god was as much of a jerk as the the Christians/Jews/Muslims said he was. I realized that I was giving god the benefit of the doubt, and a good god would not toss me into hell just for thinking he couldn't be as bad as they said.

I could not fathom a god saying "You were wrong! I really am a jerk! I really am a neurotic mess that pretends not to exist, but still really needs your worship."

I could more easily imagine a god saying something like this to the religious folks: "What kind of a jerk did you think I was, and why would you think that?" To which the fundamentalist would say something like "Well, it was in the book." To which god would respond with "What made you think I wrote that thing? It makes me look like a complete asshole. Come on, I gave you a brain. Why didn't you use it?"

Good luck on your quest.

Peace.

-Lance

posted: March 27, 2008 EST  

 Jackie wrote:

Hi Kim,
Don't worry, you can overcome the fear! It took me a very long time to finally get up the guts to leave christianity because I was so afraid of hell. I finally came to my senses abut 6 months ago, and I don't fear anymore. The god of the bible is meant to be a god of "unconditional love"...this directly contradicts with a god that sends people to hell. Just keep thinking logically.
Good Luck!
ps- Andrew you are a fuckwit!

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 buffettphan wrote:

Kim,

I really can't add any advice that hasn't already been so eloquently stated by our fellow ex-c's. But I sure can relate to what you're saying and feeling. I was raised catholic. But I guess I wasn't a "True Catholic" since I lapsed at such an early age. ha-ha. From the time I first heard that buybull story of god demanding that Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac, I began questioning. First my parents..."You wouldn't KILL me would you? Or make be think you were gonna kill me?" Of course not! What sane, loving parent would even THINK of doing such a horrible thing to their young child? I questioned my aunts and uncles (those were my cousins they might kill, afterall!) ....I questioned the teachers in sunday school...I questioned the teachers in my catholic school... NEVER did I get a satisfactory answer. I concluded that if HUMAN parents behaved better than the almighty gawd parent, god was not good. Before long I figured if god was so bad, he shouldn't be worshipped. And if god is so bad, he shouldn't even exist. Hey--that's it--god doesn't exist! Fast forward many years--I married a non-practicing catholic. Perfect I thought. Well......not so perfect. After 2 kids and a dozen or so years of marriage, my husband "got converted" by some fundies at his work. Needless to say, there have been some rocky times....and lots of heated discussions which I won't go into now. There are quite a few of us here on ex-c.net whose spouse is still shackled in the hoax of christianity, so definately you are not alone! Keep researching and using your brain. The buybull disproves itself, as does history. When you get scared, remember that's an emotional response to years of indoctrination. Come back to ex-c for support. And, oh for now, ignore the idiot assholes like Andrew, Marc, Bear, etc. In a while, you'll be incensed by their mean arrogance. Soon after, you'll find yourself laughing at them. And one day, you might even feel a bit of pity for them...... ;-) Enjoy life!

--buffettphan

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 Andrew wrote:

Kim, these people are right...it will get better.

After all, you put your conversion in quotes and said the services never meant that much to you anyway, indicating that you weren't that sincere to begin with.

So it won't be that hard to get over your fear.

That, of course, has NOTHING to do with the existence of hell.

Yes, that is another story indeed.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 cipher wrote:

Andrew, I hope sincerely that one of these days, you shoot off your mouth to someone who has no compunction about beating the shit out of you.

Perhaps it would be best if you just stayed in your parents' basement, little man.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 Andrew wrote:

In other words, Cipher, you have no answer.

And you are worried too, aren't you?

But as to your wish, its already been tried.

It failed.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Andrew said...

...that is another "story" indeed.....

Indeed it is.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

andrew, go take a bath.

And now I wish to make a few comments about bear 7. I will not comment directly--I am not feeling well this morning and my stomach wouldn't take it. It does, however, amuse me that fundies are still nursing their anti-papist issues.

I am a graduate of a tough little catholic school; St Joseph's, Rensselaer IN; class of '03. I continue to take classes as an auditor. I do not know what experience bear has had with catholics, but young modern catholics do not give a rabbit's ass about church doctrine; church tradition; canon law.

Just as a casual example, nobody observes ash wednesday. All foreheads are clean.

Modern catholics are into such things as peace; justice; economic reform; education; health care. They do not drible their drivel about "my saviour this and my saviour that and I have accepted jesus christ as my personal lord and saviour". They are living decent lives and care about their fellow man.

About this "assurance of salvation" bear mentioned: Catholics do not need some experience of "assurance" That is a protestant thing. Protestants are pitifully insecure and need to "feel saved". Catholics have no such insecurity. And they sure as hell are not "busting their gut in fear".

And there are no graven images in the St Joe chapel. They got rid of those years ago. bear is living in the past.

Just one more little thing. There is an organization called "Locks of Love". These people go about the country asking women to donate their hair to make wigs for chemotherapy patients. One of their stops is here at St Joe--lots of young women give up their beautiful long hair for the sake of strangers they will never meet. Show me a fundie woman who will do that.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

oh shit, this is funny. andrew's post came in ahead of mine. andrew is striking a macho pose!!!! This is too good to be true.

So somebody tried to knock his lights out and failed? WOW. andrew must be one bad sonofabitch. Reading the old testament does that to you. All those stories about killing babies and making off with the virgins. Yup, we don't wanna fuck with andrew.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 Franciscan Monkey wrote:

Kim,

Getting over the fear of hell varies with each person. For me personally, the fear went away immediately upon deconversion. I realized that the Bible was just written by ignorant men, and that Christianity had no basis in reality.

Andrew has a point, in that whether or not we believe in or fear hell has no bearing on whether it exists. Fortunately for you, there is not one iota of evidence for an actual hell, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise, and the concept of hell doesn't even make logical sense.

The doctrine of hell is used by various religions as a way of controlling its adherents. It was used to control you, and it is still controlling Andrew and billions of others. Just look at it rationally, Kim, and you will stop fearing that which does not exist.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Hi ryan.

You state: "....Catholics have no such insecurity. And they sure as hell are not "busting their gut in fear"....

Apparently our friend Kim is in the "wrong" Catholic church....?

Where will she find the "new and improved" model?

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

If you will re-read my post, you will see that I have been talking about "young, modern catholics". My use of the word "catholic" was a careless generalization.

And about Kim: my advice to her would be to seek out a campus parish and give it a try; that is, if she still wants to maintain some sort of faith or devotion.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 babygirle195 wrote:

Hey,
I just want to encourage you. Fear is not uncommon and it usually comes when we don't understand things. Confusion brings fear. There are lots of things in our lives that confuse us, just because life isn't simple anymore.

There is one thing that is simple: that is God. You say that you've changed from Protestant to Catholic, lol, I changed from Catholic to Christian-meaning I follow Christ. I want to encourage you and tell you that religion and theology try to explain and express faith, just as a songwriter expresses they way you feel through a song. You had the emotions, but he was gifted with the ability to provide the words.

These things aren't faith and they tend to confuse and complicate things for us. This is what brings the fear; when we don't understand. I've been in that position too. The Word says: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Confusion comes from everywhere else but God. We look at the world today and say where is God. He is here, but where are we? We are apart from him, seperated from Love and dwelling in sin. Hell was not meant for us. He created us to be perfect and in his likeness.

When you think of prefection, do you think of pain, sorrow, death, and fear, or do you think of peace, joy, patience and love.

Remember that God is Love. Fear is a device to pull you away from his Love. It is being used against you. Just Remember: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear..." (1 John 4:18)

God, being perfect in his love, is the only thing that can cast out that fear. Not religion. Not the answers that the world provides. This is between you and God. He wants you to come to him to find peace. He's paid to much for you to ever let you be lost.

Be Blessed and Have Peace in Jesus Name,
Love,
Liz

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

This might be mildly amusing: andrew is, I suspect, our old friend emmanuel goldstein, aka "goldy".

Compare the following two posts: "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly"; dated 9/23/06; post 9/24 signed emmanuel goldstein.

"Happy Friday" dated 3/14/08; post 3/16 signed andrew.

The wording is practically identical.

It wasn't hard to find you, goldy. You have a stench that can't be forgotten.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

What does “any” religion provide, that a completely secular life can’t?

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 ryan wrote:

Liz, you have been polite, I must grant you that. Most of the xristians we get in here are walking, talking pricks.

About living without fear: I am doing that. I lay my head on my pillow at night and if I never wake up, that is fine. I do not fear death. There is no hell to fear, nor heaven to gain.

And you have said that religion is not the answer. You also said that it is all between you and god. That sounds fine, but do you still believe in hell, and that many people will go there? If there is a yes to both questions, then you still have a religion, try to sweeten it up all you want.

It reminds me of these people who say that they have a relationship, not a religion. I have asked them what happens when I die without that relationship, and the silence is deafening.

Liz, many xristians are keen to assure us that they have something different; something we never tried or even heard of, and then they proceed to preach the same old shit; the shit we heard until it came out of our ears.

So go ahead and answer: are we here at x xristian going to hell? Religious people say we are.

And thank you again for your soft-spoken courtesy.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 jimearl wrote:

Dave8 asked a very good question:

What does “any” religion provide, that a completely secular life can’t?

I believe I can answer this: absolutely nothing but delusions taken as truth.

posted: March 28, 2008 EST  

 billybee wrote:

Ryan,

I could not be more confused as to what in the hell you are talking about.

One side of your mouth says; YAY for the Catholics! But then the other side of your mouth says; That goddamn church...!

So are you giving an endorsement to a "new catholosism / social gospel"? or what.....?

posted: March 28, 2008 EST