Ex-Pastor Dan said:
.... if this book was to be the ONLY TRUE revelation for the rest of history and he bothered to come to earth to introduce the message that would save mankind, why didn't he pen the thing himself and make sure it was right
----
Dan,

This has been not only one of the questions I wondered for decades myself, but one I've asked countless times, only to hear silence or some lame excuse in return.

You might want to add to your reading list this new book:
WHO WAS JESUS by D.M Murdock

It was one of those books that I had trouble putting down.

Before reading this book I was already convinced this jesus couldn't have been more than human and I felt that he most likely had never even lived.
However, after reading this book, I see virtually no evidence left to even account for a human jesus that could entertain with a few 'sideshow' magic tricks.

Not only didn't jesus write his own words-from-god for us humans, but for someone who was as popular as the bible shows him to be and who could perform such grand miracles, we certainly wouldn't need a huge amount of faith to believe in his existence
Many from that era would have had a lot to write about him, but instead, strangely did not.

Perhaps Big Sky-Daddy god had a change of heart and decided to wipe away 99% of any secular records of his only son on earth.
Yeah, that must be it. God wanted us to know about jesus only through the god provided bible and no other documents. Gosh, why didn't I think of that before [g]

So we have effectively no writings outside the bible, not a single legit artifact from his life (although we sure have plenty fakes), and no descendants from his family have kept track of their heritage to this greatest man of all time.

If you were to try and convince someone today (who never heard of christ before), that he existed, using the meager evidence we have for him, they would no sooner believe in such a god-on-earth anymore than they do for the many other myths of old that are easily discounted as such.


ATF (Who wonders why in 2008 we have folks who choose to remain blinded to reality)

Dan: congrats. I just read your previous post and now this one.

Ex-Pentecostal minister here, too! (Assemblies of God, mostly) I left (got kick out of) that arena in the early 80s, spend some time exploring other ideas, and then realized that I did not believe in God. As the words rolled off my tongue I realize that it sounded on the same level as "I don't believe in gambling" or "I don't believe in dancing" -- I know gambling and dancing exist, but I might not believe they are right for me (which isn't true of course-- dancing is fun). I could not just say "I don't believe in God" as if "I know God exists but I choose not to put my trust and confidence in him."

No, I could no longer just say "I don't believe in God." I now hold the position that there is no god in whom to place my trust and confidence.

Anyway, your journey will be your own, of course, but you will find many kindred minds along the way.

ex-Pastor Dan,

Remember wanting to 'spread the good news' about Jesus?

I now feel that way about Atheism. The challenging question for me is How to reach out to Christians with the 'Better than good news'!

Suggestions......?

Hi ex-p Dan and Joyce, haven't had the time to respond to your post yet but I'm glad you two finally see what a crock of BS religion is. Unfortunately we were born and raised into a land of brainwashed zombie fundamental idiots.

Early on, we tend to evaluate ourselves by what we see other people mimicking, we think well if uncle Joe (or a parent) is willing to get up in church and make a complete fool of himself confessing their belief in an invisible man made myth, then it must certainly be true.

We tend to think these people must have the holy sprit within them, we think early on, certainly these people would not act this way just out of emotional fear?

It's even deeper than emotional fear, it's mental psychosis, or temporary mental insanity, based upon emotional fear and the fear of dying. I understand it, but why fear death when it is a process of living. Something we all must go through, but then it's over, everything we have known is over, what ever was important to us, it's over. We just happen to exist in this point in time and space, we were here to witness this, but that's all we can do. Sorry for the rant, and welcome aboard. Please you two, stay in contact with us here. Thanks Dan and Joyce.

We love rational thinking people.

"I now feel that way about Atheism. The challenging question for me is How to reach out to Christians with the 'Better than good news'!"


Save your breath!
One suggestion is by ridicule and mockery. Reason alone doesn’t work. How can anyone reason with someone who believes that their god is omnipotent, omniscient and so on. How can anyone reason with someone who believes in a talking snake and jackass, demons and all the rest of crap that’s in the bible. Gosh I kick myself sometimes for being one of those who use to believe all that nonsense. I wasted and flush away so many precious years of my life believing in the bible myths.
Ridicule, ridicule

On the first four books you cited I don't imagine they will be used in twenty year time. Fifty years ago people left Christianity because of Bultmann and his ideas are now largely shelft.

The note that certain books "won't be used in 20 or 50 years" shouldn't be taken (in my opinion) to mean they aren't valid or appropriate for the times and audience in which and to which they were written. Books du jour are written to answer Questions du jour. Fifty years from now, people will be asking different questions (or the same questions from new angles). Doesn't matter so much that "X" book becomes a standard classic on a topic, but that it builds and contributes to the cumulative body of knowledge over time.

Dan,

To have someone who changes his mind about such an ingrained belief is evidence for the weakness of the christian arguments and it's inevitable collapse.

I'm glad you have found this website a positive place to express your views. It seems that some christians tend to think that any place that lets people express views that run counter to christianity should be outlawed or some such. As if freedom of expression only includes the freedom to agree with them.

I have to warn you that from time to time some religious fundie will get on here and try to use his myopic straw-man idea of atheism to support his decision to believe in his self approved fantasy. It's funny to watch them sometimes. Mostly, they are just jerks.

I can't wait to hear more of you story.

Knitterman,

I mean that their results will be considered invalid

Hello Dan. Welcome, and congratulations on what surely must have been a courageous move on your part. Like others here, I'd love to hear more about your experiences. You asked for other book suggestions. Here are just a few that I think are outstanding:

The Jesus Puzzle, by Earl Doherty

The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, by Robert M. Price

Deconstructing Jesus, by Robert M. Price

The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby

Gospel Fictions, by Randel Helms

Belief and Make-Believe, by G. A. Wells

Enjoy!

Anonymous said "I mean that their results will be considered invalid"

But their ideas have already been resoundingly rejected....

...by Christian fundamentalists. The question is not whether some will reject the conclusions reached, as we already know the answer to that. The relevant question is whether the arguments can be shown to be erroneous. So far I have not seen sound rebuttals of Christ-Myth theories from apologists. The vast majority of apologists seem to simply reject such ideas out of hand, without really engaging the actual arguments. If you know of some exceptions, please list them.

Ex-Pastor Dan:

One of my favorites is

God: The Failed Hypothesis by Victor Stenger

Jim Arvo:

I just finished reading Mythmaker and found it fascinating. I've considered reading some of Maccoby's other works. Do you have any recommendations?

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

Hi Fanciscan Monkey,

Another book by Maccoby that I *intend* to read, if I can ever get my hands on a copy without paying a fortune, is

The Sacred Executioner: Human Sacrifice and the Legacy of Guilt.

I learned of this book through Robert M. Price, who mentions it frequently in "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man", and he lists it on his Recommended Reading List, which I highly recommend visiting.

One of the things I took away from Maccoby's "The Mythmaker" is that it's highly unlikely that Paul (Saul) was a Pharisee. Maccoby examines several of Paul's arguments in detail, and shows with stunning clarity that he (Paul) completely botched standard rabbinic reasoning (or what would come to be known as "rabbinic"). In fact, I was almost rolling on the floor reading some of Maccoby's critiques, as he so thoroughly exposes the muddled thinking that is being passed off as keen argument. One day I may post some excerpts here. They are absolute gems.

Jim,
You go to any academic conference, seminar or organization on Christian origins and present those books and arguments you've listed and you will be laughed off. They are NOT taken seriously or even had time to be reviewed or footnoted in any serious discussion. They are already gone. Saying its only 'fundamentalist' who deny it is wrong and a straw man. Christ-mythers are the atheists equivalent of the young-earth creationists. A few renegade people and scholars mouthing off in their own little world and laypeople accepting it. If all you have ever read is 'apologist' material one perhaps I can understand why.

Anonymous #2188843198257845304 wrote: “You go to any academic conference, seminar or organization on Christian origins and present those books and arguments you've listed and you will be laughed off. They are NOT taken seriously or even had time to be reviewed or footnoted in any serious discussion. They are already gone. Saying its only 'fundamentalist' who deny it is wrong and a straw man.”

Then please acquaint us with the evidence that has convinced these researchers that Jesus was more than a myth. We skeptics aren’t impressed by “experts” unless we have good reason to believe that the “experts” have disinterested evidence to back up their claims.

Anonymous wrote: “Christ-mythers are the atheists equivalent of the young-earth creationists. A few renegade people and scholars mouthing off in their own little world and laypeople accepting it.”

Christ-mythers and YECs both get their material from ancient writings, but that is where the similarity ends. Christ-mythers assume that ancient writings reflect the beliefs of ancient writers—a reasonable assumption if you ask me. The writings in question have led them to believe that Jesus was a myth that, over time, morphed into a “history.” This, i think, is different than assuming that their ancient writings (and only their ancient writings) come from an ineffable, imaginary god, in defiance of ubiquitous evidence that screams that it ain’t so.

Anonymous wrote: “If all you have ever read is 'apologist' material one perhaps I can understand why.”

Certainly apologist material is unconvincing, but where is the material that is convincing?

Anonymous said "You go to any academic conference, seminar or organization on Christian origins and present those books and arguments you've listed and you will be laughed off."

Yes, I think you are absolutely right about that! Maybe we can agree on something else as well: If you go to any academic conference on cosmology or evolution and present the stories in Genesis as fact, and you will likely be laughed off. Agree? Good. I think we can further agree that laughing is not a good substitute for cogent argument.

To your specific point: Most participants in the study or "Christian origins", or "Church history", approach the subject from a sectarian standpoint, replete with profound presuppositions. That's their prerogative. However, when one approaches the subject with the assumption that there is a god, or that the Bible is his word, or that Christianity is the one "True" religion, then I will happily listen to their best arguments, but I will dismiss their ridicule as empty posturing.

Now, while our hypothetical Christian conference attendees are in such a jovial mood, let's ask them what evidence they can offer for a historical Jesus. What do you suppose they will list? Perhaps they will cite all the eyewitnesses, and the martyrdom of the apostles, and the early churches with proven apostolic succession (as documented by Eucebius), and the passages in Josephus, and numerous passages in the Talmud, and the "believability" of the Gospel accounts (ala C. S. Lewis), and the reliability of Luke as a historian, and the hostile witnesses such as the guards at the tomb, and the multitudes to whom Jesus appeared, and the miraculous spread of Christianity, and Saul's sudden conversion, and Roman records, etc. etc. I'm sure they could go on and on, perhaps even chuckling all the while at the naiveté of the very suggestion that Jesus was not a historical figure.

What do you think of my hypothetical scenario? Am I being unfair or unrealistic? If so, feel free to correct or amend this in any way you wish to make it more realistic. Then let's see if our hypothetical theologians have a good case.

Let me present you with a more specific challenge. I challenge you to identify any aspect of the Jesus story that is well-attested historically. Pick anything you like: His birth, death, sermons, travels,... anything at all. By well-attested I mean unambiguously reported in one or more sources with reasonable provenance and reliability. I'll be curious to hear what you can come up with.

Cheers.

By the way, Anonymous, I forgot to ask you whether you've actually read any of those books. If so, which ones? Just curious. (I find that the vast majority of the Christians who scoff at Christ-Myth theories actually have no idea what they are scoffing at.)

Ooops, I forgot to respond to several other things. Anonymous said "They are NOT taken seriously or even had time to be reviewed or footnoted in any serious discussion. They are already gone."

Obviously that is not true--at least not as you've stated it. Several of the books I've listed prove otherwise.

Anonymous also said "Saying its only 'fundamentalist' who deny it is wrong and a straw man."

I did not say it was only fundamentalists. In fact, I can name quite a few atheists who also reject the idea. However,my initial point remains: I have not seen a serious rebuttal of the ideas put forth by Price, Doherty, and Pagels, for example. As for other books, I've probably read more from Christian apologists than from those who profess no religion. That's how I reached the conclusion that their case is weak. I know of no other way. I feel that one cannot reach a truly informed opinion about any topic without studying all sides. Do you agree?

Hey Ex-Pastor Dan - congratulations on making the leap. I know its a difficult one as I also was a pastor. There are a few of us ex-pastors around and its always nice to hear of another - my own story is here if you're interested: http://www.ex-christian.net/ index.php?showtopic=8933

Anyway, I wish you well.

Chirp.... chirp.... chirp....

Over a week later and I hear crickets but little else. Where has anonymous gone? Why do they so frequently disappear without even saying goodbye? I do hope those questions weren't too tough.

you all are pathetic. i will keep you in my prayers, that one day you will come to know what you once knew.

the bible says, and i knwo you've read it, that once you are a child of GOD and your name is in HIS book you will never part from him.

may GOD be the source of all your blessings today.
my prayers are with you!!!

Anonymous/No-Name Illiterate #1(NNI#1): "you all are pathetic. i will keep you in my prayers,"

How do you plan on stuffing me in your mind?

NNI#1: "...that one day you will come to know what you once knew."

I still know what I once knew; if I want to get along with the crowd, I just need to conform and not question a religious authority on matters of life with any expectation of honesty.

NNI#1: "the bible says, and i knwo you've read it, that once you are a child of GOD and your name is in HIS book you will never part from him."

I suppose that means I have nothing to worry about then.

NNI#1: "may GOD be the source of all your blessings today.
my prayers are with you!!!"

Prayers, I don't need no stinking prayers, where are they at anyway, are they invisible?

Anonymous said "you all are pathetic."

Thank you for that lovely thought.

Are you the same anonymous as above? Honestly, how are we supposed to tell you apart? Assuming you are, why can you not address my simple questions? Were any of my questions unfair or leading? Feel free to rephrase them if you wish. I'm just looking for some honest answers. Come on back if/when you are so inspired.

Have a great day.

Anonymous Said:
"you all are pathetic. i will keep you in my prayers"

Once again another christian offers worthless lip service.

Instead of doing something productive to better this world, they choose to get down on their sorry knees and talk to themselves and pretend that their imaginary friend is listening.

Anonymous Said:
"may GOD be the source of all your blessings today.
my prayers are with you!!!"

My own abilities are how I get my blessings. I work for a living to earn my way. God doesn't do shit for me, and before you start with that "God gave you a job Bullshit", no my employer gave me my job. Your God didn't do shit, so get over it ass wipe.

Huh, funny.........you first insult us by telling us that we are pathetic and then you tell us "May God be the sources of all your blessings today".

Just like most arrogant two faced, back biting christians, you first insult us, then you bless us and tell us you will pray for us. Nice way of witnessing for Christ Buddy. I'm sure your jesus who is supposed to be all about love would approve your methods.

Thanks for posting here and reminding us all just what hypocritical two faced assholes most christians are.

Now do us all a favor and follow Christ's example and have yourself killed like he did. You might want to try going out and lying down in the middle of a street and wait for a car to run over you.

The sooner we get rid of you christians the better off this whole world will be.