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encouraging ex-Christians
Letters from Visitors to ExChristian.Net and Replies.
From Gina:
Dear Webmaster,
I came across your site by accident. Since I don't believe in coincidence I read your testimony and comments from other people.
What stood out most in your testimony was the following:
This is where you find God, and come to truly know Him. Find that quiet place again, grab the NIV bible and fall to your knees. Like one other person said " Stop looking for God in man, religion, churches." Many people are not honest with themselves about how they feel about God. I myself believed in God but did not love Him. I wanted to Love Him so I prayed to Him "God I want to Love you please give me that love." He did. I have a wonderful relationship with Him and he is as real to me as my own son, even though I can not see God. It is that relationship you get through prayer and reading God's word (bible) that no, person, place, or church can ever give you.
Anyway I prayed before sending you this e-mail and opened bible for God's words. Here is His response:
Webmaster, I do not know your name unless you tell me but I will pray for you. God Bless you.
Dear Webmaster,
I came across your site by accident. Since I don't believe in coincidence I read your testimony and comments from other people.
What stood out most in your testimony was the following:
Later that night, in the dark and quiet of my room, I got down on my knees confessed my sins, repented as much as I knew how, and accepted Christ into my heart. It was a mind-altering experience for me. In my mind’s eye I visualized the Creator of all physically with me in the room. I felt overwhelmed with what I believed was a personal and direct manifestation of the LORD. I cried and cried. The emotional cleansing and reality of that moment has never left me, and as I write about it now, it comes alive once again
This is where you find God, and come to truly know Him. Find that quiet place again, grab the NIV bible and fall to your knees. Like one other person said " Stop looking for God in man, religion, churches." Many people are not honest with themselves about how they feel about God. I myself believed in God but did not love Him. I wanted to Love Him so I prayed to Him "God I want to Love you please give me that love." He did. I have a wonderful relationship with Him and he is as real to me as my own son, even though I can not see God. It is that relationship you get through prayer and reading God's word (bible) that no, person, place, or church can ever give you.
Anyway I prayed before sending you this e-mail and opened bible for God's words. Here is His response:
Mathew 12:25
Then Jesus prayed this prayer. "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way!
Webmaster, I do not know your name unless you tell me but I will pray for you. God Bless you.
And your point was?
The words of your Jesus spring to mind, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".
Dear me ... you are so LOST!
You speak of the emotional experience of some dear person who obtained obvious psychological relief from an experience - good and well. Let me assure you that the relief and joy that comes from ditching your kind of thinking far supercedes what you have quoted.
Put your mind in gear, dear Sir or Madam, and use your sincerity to read up on how your NIV Bible arrived and then start reading the Old Testament - that is filled with teaching about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and, of course Jesus - yugh!
By the way, I was part of the church for around 40 years - born again, evangelising and all that until I saw the light - my chains fell off, my heart was freed ... I rose went forth and followed - reason!
Paul Benedict
If your god is real, he will reveal himself to the intelligent and the well-educated; he will honor any attempt to approach him through reason. But he doesn't. He can only work through stupidity. Now what does that tell us?
Ryan
"It is that relationship you get through prayer and reading God's word (bible) that no, person, place, or church can ever give you." (?)
Why would anyone want a relationship with a god of murder, child abuse. " Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."--Psalm 137:9. THIS IS JUST ONE PASSAGE OF MANY! Keep reading !!!
What a loving god you worship.
"my chains fell off, my heart was freed ... I rose went forth and followed - reason!"
Paul there is no doubt that you were a fundamentalist if you can quote that old hymn! You make me want to break out and start singing "Victory in Jesus!"
You were absolutely right man, Christianity's so-called "peace that passes all understanding" is nothing compared to the freedom of breaking loose and finally thinking for yourself.
It is ignorant and delusional to believe that the reasoning/chattering part of your brain is the whole enchilada...when it is the smallest part of what is going on behind the scenes.
Yes I have been part of mass hypnosis in the pentecostal church...all that slow singing and swaying back and forth would put *anybody* into an altered start of consciousness.
That is NOT JEEEEZUSSS walking the isles of the church, and IT AIN'T the presence of the howleee ghost, it is endorphins!!! that's all...period. There is no magic loving god or spirit making you feel warm and fuzzy it's your BRAIN! The one you came in with and the same one you're gonna leave with...only you have fooled yourself into believing that something spiritual is happening...it is delusion and fakery.
Gina,
Once you cross over to the world of enlightened or well informed athesim. There is no turning back.
I tried so hard to have that emotional born again experince many years ago when I was at my lowest. I struck out. Jesus must have been busy that night. I prayed and prayed and got nothing. My inner skeptical guy was watching my back despite my despariation. I found the real truth at this site.
I actually had the exact emotional rush that almost brought tears to my eyes at recent a Beach Boys concert. For some reason I was taken back to my childhood and overcome with emotion. If that feeling would have hit me through prayer, I may have been a serious Christian. It was so powerful.
Yeah, pot does it for me...
what astonishes me is xtians lack of imagination when it comes to nature and reality. "There can't be something so beautiful and complex without god!" Bullshit - beautiful and complex - that's super, and its natural, but its not supernatural.
xtians think they've tapped into something spiritual when they are just tweaking out. everyone else seems to know this! come into the light of reason. we experienced your reality, and found it sorely lacking.
From my buy-bull (properly stolen from a hotel) says...
Matthew 12:25
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Is Gina too ignorant to quote her bullshit properly or am I missing something here?
Great quote, I really could've used that one in another discussion I had, recently.
It seems to me that this biblical passage is a clear statement that that if you are ignorant, god will talk to you. If you are educated, then god will not talk to you. Why is that? Is it better to be stupidly ignorant in god's eyes?
Or….. could it be that you, Gina, are making that tired, tried and false accusation that if we are atheists, we must be over educated, arrogant fools. That must be it. After all we are incredible fools for denying the existence of your idiotic god, one who must be so insecure that he will cater only to ignorant children. Those of us with the really HARD questions he wants nothing to do with.
No one here gives a rat’s ass that you are praying for DAVE, the webmaster. (If you had read as much here as you have claimed, then you would know his name. Or did your god hide that evil appellation from thine eyes?) His knees aren’t going to bend in supplication because…. WAIT, what’s that noise that I hear? No, those are my knees.
Damn, I hate growing old!
While some people seem to actually repress any learning....GINA!
First, whether ingrained by a God or developed via evolution, religiosity (the tendency to be strongly devoted to a set of beliefs or ideals) is a human characteristic. As such, it is also present in atheism.
Second, atheism is not without values: intellect, reason, and benefiting society to name a few. I do not like being called an idiot or ignorant. Even if I am those things I have a much greater respect for those who find another way to bring it to my attention.
Third, no longer believing in something does not make that something wrong, or, for that matter, the new beliefs right… though they may be better for you.
Finally, you've been there. I do not recommend "othering" where you came from. There is still honor to be found.
Sincerely,
KeithC.
Psych Undergrad, US
Before defending the ignorant with ignorance let me point out 4 things.
One, you can’t just go defining words as you wish them to be defined to suit your argument. Well, really, you can but you’re not going to make sense to anyone and you’ll look like an ass. I know, I know, apologists do it all the time BUT THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT OK. Here ya go. I looked ‘em up for ya.
Religiosity: The quality of being religious
And what is it to be religious? Thought you’d ask.
Religious: Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
God. Did you catch that? God!
And let us now juxtapose religiosity and Atheism, as Christians are wont to do.
Atheism: Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
Thank you American Heritage Dictionary 4th edition online version. Atheists, by definition, cannot posses the quality being religious. See Keith, that was easy. I didn’t even have to get up from my desk. Much simpler than Grandpa’s admonition to “go look it up”. Now-a-days you don’t even have to go anywhere. Just look it up!!! Besides, did it ever occur to you that religiosity as you define it pertains to just about anything. Am I meant to take from you that a strong belief in gravity or the blueness of the sky or perhaps my broken toe are religious beliefs. I tend to believe all those strongly.
On to numero dos.
“I do not like being called an idiot or ignorant. Even if I am those things I have a much greater respect for those who find another way to bring it to my attention.”
Except that you are! Forgive my pals for not soft-pedaling above; they we’re probably a little distracted by the idiocy and ignorance. What other way is there to call out ignorance than to call it ignorance? I sure as fuck ain’t gonna call it smart!
Thrid.
“No longer believing in something does not make that something wrong, or, for that matter, the new beliefs right.”
Of course it doesn’t fuckwad! What’s your point? Go ahead and add truism or perhaps tautology to the words you need to look up.
Fourth, wait, never mind. I can’t even bring myself to respond to nonsense contained in your fourth point. I do wonder however if you feel the same way in regards to Christians giving testimonies about their conversion.
Despite my scoffing, surprisingly sincerely,
Telesmith
P.S. No one gives a rat’s ass about your major. Throwing even grandiose titles around is pretentious and mentioning your “some college” is just pathetic. Now run along and read a dictionary and maybe enroll in a logic course for the spring.
But then my family and the adults in my life told me it wasn't real. Why? Because it was a she, my age and considered a figment of my imagination..an imaginary friend you see.
Sound like a god you would even want a relationship with even if it did exist?
"Stop looking for God in man, religion, churches."
Then man, religion, and churches need to stop witnessing and saying "look at me (us)", "that is proof of god". If you want people look at god only for proof, then she needs to give proof outside of man, religion, and churches. Remember, man wrote the bible.
You can't sale man's testimony, religion, and churches without us looking at it. The bible says you will know god's people by their fruits. Because there is no fruit, there is no god's people. In turn, there is no god. No true xtians, no god. It makes the so-called inspired words of god a fraud and a lie. Period!
You need to read about the 7 churches and know there is no church of philadelphia (brotherly love). It's a crock!
Gina, Overall, you are asking us to listen to you, your witness, and in the same breathe to not listen to you (man, church, and religion). Xtianity is a religion just like all the others.
Do you know why so many people are confused about xtianity? Its because lies upon lies are always confusing. If you had truth, you would have clarity rather than emotion, wishful thinking.
Gina, i can help if you are scared of dying. Its okay if you never see your family again. You won't go to heaven because there is none. This life is all you have, so live it you best. You know there is no heaven. If there was, you would be happy and celebrate when loved ones die. You mouth says one thing, but your action speak louder. You don't really believe. You don't follow the bible gina. I have read the whole thing and you have failed to follow. You are heathen just like me. If you love god, you would follow his commandments, but you don't. YOu don't because you really don't believe. You believe in belief. It makes you feel good and your ego can't stand the sight of us because we push your button of unbelief. You have to come in here to feed your ego. YOu can't feed off of believers, so you feed off of us. You wish you had that courage to be like us. But you are weak. You are scared. You are trapped by relatives and friends who would disown you if you really proclaimed what you really believe. There is no god and you know it. Your daily doubts and moments when you feel alone are the realities trying creap in. Your prayers are self-reinforcment when you start feeling reality kick in. Its ok. I know reality now. I can help you. Just let it go and cry. Reality doesn't suck that much, trust me. I promise I will be your friend when you decide to leave xtianity. I will be here when they leave you. I will even marry you if your hot. my future ex-wife is a believer, so I am waiting for an anti-theist like yourself to come along. YOu have to have a big butt though. I can't stop looking at man, religion, churches, and big butts. lol
Talk to you soon Gina:)
Same story, second verse.
Please go back to your cave, this isn't a place for you.
Really? It was purely accidental and also not coincidental?
So let me guess. You were heading to bed and Muffy the cat ran in front of you tipping you off balance. You tripped, but on the way down accidentally turned on the computer. While pulling yourself off the floor, you grabbed the keyboard and inadvertently typed in "Google" on the keypad. Whilst getting yourself all sorted out, your big toe kept hitting the keyboard typing in "Ex-Christian". Then Muffy, miffed at your chidings, jumped off the monitor and hit the "Enter" key.
And here you are.
Something like that? I mean, it couldn't possibly be you were using a search engine, or using a link from another site could it? Cause that wouldn't be accidental, and that would mean you're lying.
And, of course, if you came here intentionally, then you'd be telling the truth about it not being a coincidence. Not that coincidences ever happen in God's Magic Kingdom.
You're obviously not really satisfied with your own self deception, otherwise you wouldn't be investigating these sights. People don't go onto porn sights to see what's bad about them. they go there for the kicks. I hope you got a kick from this site. Good luck with your rapture.
P.S. You don't come across sites by accident. You have to enter them.
Matt.11:25. At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to little ones.
In illo tempore respondens Iesus dixit confiteor tibi Pater Domine caeli et terrae quia abscondisti haec a sapientibus et prudentibus et revelasti ea parvulis
I have a different translation and it doesn't mean the same thing. I don't think any bible on earth still has the same message as the original verses.
Anyway, I doubt the original verses
could have actually taught us anything, except that the bible is totally ambiguous and contradicts itself around every corner.
'Accidentally' go to the following site and read the verses quoted:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/bible.htm#CONTRA
The people who come to this website are, as far as I can tell, looking for a reprieve from the prostelytizing sales-pitches that we get from our "christ-filled" friends, family-members, and co-workers. We see the world in a way you don't. If you want to insult us and say that we've "lost God" because we simply "didn't love him" and were "looking for him in all the wrong places", that's fine, but do it in your own space. I don't know about anyone else here, but I most CERTAINLY don't go to CHRISTIAN SITES and tell the webmasters there that I think that they're deluded and that they're trying to induct people into their cults using manipulative tactics, guilt trips, and fear-mongering. I don't appreciate getting it in a place where I've come to heal from the angry, vindictive reactions that I've gotten from Christians when I've told them, non-accusatorily, that I no longer believe in their religion.
If we wanted to re-join your cult, WE'D COME TO YOU. You're worse than a spammer. A spammer would at least have the common decency to use an impersonal machine to solicit their products. You actually TOOK THE TIME TO READ this site, and then CHOSE to say what you did.
That's one of the most inconsiderate things that I can think of a person doing. It is as if you have gone to a group of people who are recovering from sexual abuse and shoved child pornography in their faces.
Why, why would I want to worship a "God" who creates human intellect, and demands that people believe in him without any evidence or he will send them to a fiery inferno, and then not only doesn't make himself believable, but goes to great lengths to HIDE HIMSELF, so that it is even MORE difficult to believe in him?! What sort of "loving parent" hides bread from a starving child, or medicine from a sick child? This is your "God-the-Father". This is the "benevolent diety" that you've come to shove in our faces.
At this point, the only polite, loving thing that you could possibly do is go away.
After reading a few lines of your self righteous post I felt a swell of liquid in my throat, you know, it happens just before you are going to be sick to your stomach. I began to gag, blech, horck, yek, and finally ran to the bathroom to throw up. Thanx for your wonderful sermon.
Now then, I hope you have read all the comments that have been posted here. I'll bet if you drop your drawers
and back into a mirror you'll see that your ass is all red and bruised. You have just had your ass kicke d properly for coming here with your bullshit.
What you said!
Picture Show. Scapegoat
There are some good christians here that I have alot of respect for also.
But the ones that show up here to spread thier arrogance, and try and prove that us non-believers are going to fry for etenity; well, I just leave it up to the (smarter than me) atheists to pull a can of whoopass out on them, and they don't stick around long. Again, Welcome....Roger A/A
Nothing like good ole biblomancy huh? That's a form of divination ya know (look it up) - so you're gonna be joining us in hell due to your unrepented sin ;)
But don't feel too bad - I used to do the same when I was a xian. Only after I left did I learn the truth.
This is known as Stichomancy. It is as old as sacred writings themselves and traditionally is used in fortune-telling and decision making. Muslims even do it with the Quran.
It's like any other superstitious practice. It doesn't mean anything because it doesn't actually work.
Also... have you ever noticed how many people arrive here through Google to articles here about masturbation? Says something interesting about the struggles between humanity and religious precepts...
One day we'll know the truth. And someone's going to look a fool. Personally, if God exists, I've got eternity to look forward to. And if he doesn't, I've lost nothing by believing in Him. His peace Gina.
Whatever.
Hail Zeus, Allah, and RA!
Religion is nonsense.
Personally, if God exists, I've got eternity to look forward to. And if he doesn't, I've lost nothing by believing in Him
----
Oh Gina,
Don't you realize that most of us USED to believe in this idea, just as you obviously do?
The 'bet' you speak of actually has a name......Pascals Wager
It has many flaws and you would do well to read this article CAREFULLY ....
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html
What you assuming is that one can FORCE oneself to believe in the xtian god, thereby gaining entry to his heaven after death.
Well, one can't force oneself to believe in anything, it has to come through reason.... or brainwashing perhaps.
Do you actually think any person (yourself?) can FAKE this belief and fool this xtian god of yours, into making him think we were believers the whole time?
If god is so powerful, how can anyone PRETEND to believe in him and get away with that fakery?
So we can't win heaven with your suggestion here.
However, you are incorrect that if you're wrong and there is no god, that you lost nothing.
The fact is you will have lost the life you COULD have had and it would be the ONLY LIFE you'll ever get.
Don't you realize how ticked-off we all are about the years we lost to your fake god already and most of us still have plenty life left to make up for it.
Ah, but what if you spent 99% of your lifetime serving this make-believe god, only to discover he wasn't ever there and now you have something like 1 year left to live.
Just think how angry you would be at this point, knowing you blew away your whole life on some myth.
Gina, you better take a darn closer look at your belief system of a god before too much of your life has been pissed away on foolishness.
Again, keep in mind we are EX Christians for a reason, and that reason has everything to do with discovering your god can't exist.
We did not one day decide to reject your god because we just FELT like it.
We did not turn our backs on him because we wanted to have fun sinning either, just in case you are assuming that is the case.
If you study your bible book history and all it's contradictions, flaws, and how god and jesus each give the appearance of having a multiple personality disorder, then you might realize what we all did.
Your god can NOT exist, at least not the one from your bible storybook Gina.
ATF (who wonders why the newest comments aren't showing up today???)
Through all the years I was a christian, I thought the warm feeling I got was God and Jesus..
But guess what. I can get that same feeling through any group activity.
Be it a concert or a dance or a party.
Let me start by using this fine snowy Michigan Sunday morning as an example. This Sunday morning was mine. Oh how I love to get up when I feel like it, drink my coffee while enjoying some time online. Along with checking the news, weather, ExC.net, and a few Youtube vids, I will confess to all of you in this forum that I did look at a porn site or two and felt nothing but guilt free visual pleasure. And speaking of guilt free visual pleasure my son turns 18 this week and instead of giving him a new fancy leather King James Bible, I am going to by him two passes to Lansing Michigan's finest strip club so he and a friend can have some fun during his Christmas break.
If my family and I were still attending church my ass would have been up at 7am dragging my poor kids out of bed, and then watching my wife toss more of my hard earned money in the collection plate than I ever liked. It was never close to 10% I am happy to say.
To say you have lost nothing by following a religious cult is complete and utter bullshit. I was never that devout, but it was always a pain in the ass doing what little I did with the church.
And as ATF said,
"If god is so powerful, how can anyone PRETEND to believe in him and get away with that fakery?"
"I do love the line in Pascal's Wager that states if I believe(and go through all the motions)and it isn't true and I die, I have lost nothing."
'Webmaster' assumed it was because 'she' wasn't intelligent enough. There are two errors in your hasty illogical judgements webmaster. One, I am a 'he'. Second, I am not convinced that intelligence has anything to do with typing in a nickmane. It has to do with choice. But, to make you happy, I have now typed in a name. Just in case you missed it, it's Adam.
It's nice to see some people in here do try to form valid arguments. Those are worth responding to, and sometimes raise interesting challenging points. Thank you for those posts.
It does appear however that a number of people just want to express anger, bitterness, disgust, and generally, just be abusive, in a vain attempt to crush 'Gina', or anyone else into the ground. I must admit, that type of verbal diarrhoea doesn't seem to serve much purpose, and certainly doesn't convince anyone. It shows no intelligence, or sincerity of belief. It just shows that you're defensive and insecure. If you believe something, support it intelligently. Try and convince me, if you've found the 'answer', and you have some 'truth' to impart. Being abusive doesn't achieve this. It just invalidates anything you have to say. Please, use your intelligence, show some level of maturity, and discuss things like an adult. If you can't, leave the discussion to those clearly intellectual mature atheists in here, and just observe the discussion. One of the atheists in here (freethinker 05) put it well
"I just leave it up to the (smarter than me) atheists to pull a can of whoopass out on them....Roger A/A"
Anyway, these were just a few of my thoughts after reading through this discussion. Trust you all had a fantastic Sunday.
Adam
That, my dear little Adam, was the entire point of my mockery -- to get you to assume a moniker.
As to the rest of your self-righteous vomit, read the god-damned Site Purpose and Disclaimer. Your opinion on how others should express themselves is irrelevant. Your judgment on the value of this kind of expression was unsolicited, and is unappreciated. Before you get your panties all in a wad again, how about you read a few dozen of the hundreds of testimonials of former Christians posted here, and then maybe -- just maybe -- you'll understand why some people are pissed off at your lunatic religion.
As far as Gina goes, she can talk for herself, can't she?
Adam, nothing on this site is designed to "convince" a mind-numbed Christian of anything. This site is entirely intended for those leaving Christianity. We're not evangelizing here, Adam. We're ranting, relating, and generally having a good time. It's YOU and other fanatics who are intent on evangelizing.
In a nutshell: You come here and rebuke us for how we behave on our website? Excuse me, but get stuffed.
I have not tried to evangelise at all. In fact, if you re-read my post, if you feel so inclined, you will notice that there is no mention of God, or a perceived lack there-of, at all! It does not even make any claims!
All it asked for was a level of intellectual discussion, to enable people (yes, including myself) to agree or disagree with other posts, and actually come to some sort of conclusion. Reading through a hundred posts of abuse clearly does not really benefit anyone, or show any level of intellectual reasoning.
Anyway, after having read your response, clearly my post did not have the desired effect. I apologise for the offence it caused you. It really was not intended to make you as upset as it did. My apologies.
And just for your interest, I was reading through this merely to see if there were any valid arguments for your 'belief', not to evangelise, as you have presumed to be the case.
"We're not evangelizing here, Adam. We're ranting, relating, and generally having a good time."
Adam,
Yes this is our little club and sometimes our members are nice and sometimes they are complete assholes(most of us can go either way), but you must remember we don't have a building on ever corner to hang out as you do. When you reveal that fact that you are a Christian, unfortuneately whether warrented or not, you take a risk of getting lambasted. Sometimes a Christian here is receieved like a black man making his point at a KKK meeting, but for the most part we are respectful if your message is delieved with respect. If you have read a minute part of this site and haven't found any good arguements against Christianity you are(with all due respect) completely numb to reality. Information was the key to me giving up God belief. Information found on this site.
I have no clue why you would be here if you don't question your beliefs in some way. I wouldn't surf a Christian website/message board if you paid me. It would bore me to tears, and I would not even dream of making a case agaist God there. Oh well Adam you seem like a nice chap and I wish you well.
Bill
No. You posted without taking the time to find out what we were all about.
"And just for your interest, I was reading through this merely to see if there were any valid arguments for your 'belief'..."
Perhaps you should take the time to examine the arguments for your own beliefs before you attempt to deconstruct ours, young man.
Read Matthew 7:6,12-14.
And don't apologize to these guys. You have nothing to be sorry for.
"Astreja", you are seriously mistaken on every single one of your points. In fact, I'm not certain that you've actually read my posts! There are no grounds for anything you said. But just to clarify for you:
1) I posted AFTER I had taken the time to find out what you are about
2) I haven't attempted to deconstruct ANY of your beliefs
3) I HAVE taken the time to examine my own beliefs
4) And calling me "young man"? I can only assume that either you are very old, without the possibility of me being older than yourself, or you have some 'magical' way of discerning other people's ages? I am sure neither are true, so please feel free to simply call me Adam.
And "biblethumper", thank you for the scripture. I must point out to you, as I'm sure you know, that if I do cause offence to anyone in here, when it is not intended, it's only right that I apologise. I don't apologise for my belief, merely for causing offence.
If the testimonies and comments of the regulars on this website are not indicative enough that we denounce Christianity, and thus, that we subsequently lack "belief" in said religion's alleged figurehead, then surely, EX-christian.net would be indicative enough. Yes?
Now that we've hopefully established that much...
Adam...2) I haven't attempted to deconstruct ANY of your beliefs
Observation---when you say, "I was reading through this merely to see if there were any valid arguments for your 'belief'....", apostrophies/quotation marks on "belief", or not, it is an implicit challenge.
BTW, one doesn't need a "valid argument" to not believe somone elses fantastic claim. The onus of "validation" is in the lap of the one making the claim in the affirmative. To illustrate---I don't need a "valid argument" to not believe, nor to disprove, that invisible gremlins are in deed responsible for when our car keys, wallets, and reading glasses sometimes turn up missing. 'Questions?
Regarding your next point. You're quite right. You don't need to prove anything. Although hundreds upon hundreds of posts by the athesists here appear to try and do otherwise. But, yes, I understand your point in that you don't have to validate anything. If you take the view-point that God doesn't exist as a given, it might seem logical that you don't have to support this 'belief'.
Perhaps the reason we differ on who should have to validate their claim is the following: You take it as a given that God doesn't exist, and therefore a claim that He does would be a positive claim (as you mentioned). I have the converse starting point. I take it as a given that He does exist, and therefore a claim that He doesn't exist is now the positive claim.
Anyway, I do appreciate your logical reasoning. I realise we won't reach agreement on this point. Its merely an observation as to the different starting points in our reasoning.
Anyway, enough time wasted going around in circles. Thank you for the mature responses toward the end of this blog. Have a lovely evening.
Just remember who you are dealing with. These people are not looking to have an intellectual discusion with Christians. They can do that between themselves but reserve their aggression for us. I have noted that the tamest of comments will be twisted into something it is not. Then an argument ensues and things quickly degenerate into mindless name calling. Don't expect a lot of satisfaction or understanding here.
"I have the converse starting point. I take it as a given that He {God} does exist, and therefore a claim that He doesn't exist is now the positive claim."
Either way, there is no logical way to 'prove' a universal negative.
So if I say I believe that unicorns exist, its up to you to "prove" that they dont? Logic does not work that way Adam. You will never be able to prove that they dont exist. I have made the positive claim: Unicorns exist, therefore I have the responisbility to support my claim.
"Proving" somthing does not exist is not a POSITIVE claim no matter how you try and phrase the argument.
Adam, I think you are confused about who has the burden of proof. You cannot simply assert that the existence of something is the neutral position and insist that others who do not agree are making the positive claim. Here is why: existence and non-existence are not symmetric. The former admits positive evidence while the latter may not (and usually does not). Moreover, if we were to adopt your reasoning, then I could claim anything at all to exist (such as invisible chocolate Easter bunnies) and it would be up to you to prove me wrong. If those were the rules of engagement, then we would be in sorry shape as a society. People would go to prison because they could not disprove the existence of imaginary murder weapons. Thousands would die because some country could not disprove that it possessed imaginary WMD. Oh, wait... we are in that mess.
Biblethumber, I take umbrage at your characterization. If you wish to have a civil and substantive discussion about your theology, I'll happily engage you. Perhaps one in a hundred Christians who visit this site are capable of having such a discussion. Far more often than not they make threats, rude accusations, and fail to either construct or grasp even the most rudimentary of arguments. Those few who can are generally treated well. The ball is in your court.
Evidently, not "obvious" enough.
Adam...Regarding your next point. You're quite right. You don't need to prove anything. Although hundreds upon hundreds of posts by the athesists here appear to try and do otherwise.
Well, as I point out quite often, this, apparently because of the need to--if it were not for Christians barging in here and challenging our non-belief in "God" by insisting that "God" exists(and of course, that is assming that "God" is "Yahweh"), then these "hundreds and hundreds of posts" by Atheists would not exist. Such comments, however you regard them, would be needless. Do you understand that? Let me illustrate it further: We would not need an flu' vaccine if influenza did not exist.
Adam...But, yes, I understand your point in that you don't have to validate anything. If you take the view-point that God doesn't exist as a given, it might seem logical that you don't have to support this 'belief'.
Let me ask you, Adam.....**do you take, "as a given", the "view-point" that Buddha, Allah, Poseiden, Odin, Shazam, and the Great Pumpkin do not have a referent in reality? Or, are you assuming that the aforementioned do exist, until the time that someone comes along and "proves" to you that they don't exist? If you chose the former option, then you should be able to relate quite well with my position on "Yahweh", his "Son", and their "ghost".
Adam attempts...You take it as a given that God doesn't exist, and therefore a claim that He does would be a positive claim (as you mentioned). I have the converse starting point. I take it as a given that He does exist, and therefore a claim that He doesn't exist is now the positive claim.
A valiant attempt, but no, I'm sorry, logic doesn't work like that. But we can solve this rather easily, if you can just produce some convincing evidence for your fantastic religious claim(s). Remember, my position isn't so "fantastic", because after all, you deny all the same "gods" that I do, with the exception of one. In other words, don't make the common mistake of asking ME to prove that your biblegod doesn't exist, unless you can "prove" that the gods that you disbelieve in don't exist, m'kay?
Adam...Anyway, I do appreciate your logical reasoning.
Do you? I'm not convinced.
Adam...I realise we won't reach agreement on this point.
Oh? And why is that? Please explain your conviction on this.
Adam...Its merely an observation as to the different starting points in our reasoning.
The "starting point" is that we come into this world with a clean "slate"; we come into this world with zero notion, ideas, or concepts of what the letters "G-O-D" mean. In other words, the "starting point" is non-belief in "God". Atheism is the default position.
I exist. If you then claim that I don't, why is it that the burden is to prove that I do exist. I exist! Anyone who wishes to talk to me may do so. If someone then claims that I don't exist, surely they then must prove to the thousands of people who have conversed with me, that I don't in actual fact exist? How can it be that the status quo must be proved? Surely someone who contradicts the 'given' (I realise you don't accept it as a given), bears the onus of proof?
Does this make sense?
Oh, by the way, 'jim arvo' you mentioned that you take umbridge to 'biblethumpers' comment. You have been very mature, and taken the time to explain your view-point. This is much appreciated. You must admit though, apart from a small handful of others, you are quite unique in the maturity of your responses. All you have to do is read the hundred odd posts above to see this point. Perhaps however, this has in part been a result of arrogance, or sometimes perceived arrogance, on the part of us Christians. This is not always the case though.
Keep well, and thank you for your time and patience with me. Again, apologies for any offense caused. It really wasn't intended. Just wanted to discuss this a bit. And it has been interesting.
Without meaning to offend anyone, or appear or sound arrogant, I hope God does reveal Himself to you, in a TANGIBLE way.
I clearly don't have all the answers, but I'm happy to discuss anything with anyone here, with the same courteous manner you have treated me, should you wish.
Adam
It has been awhile since I brushed up on my formal logic from college, but I will try and answer your question.
First let me say that I can see your point of view and where you are comming from, though your argument contains faulty logic. and when I say 'faulty logic' I dont mean that in a 'you are an idiot' sense. The premises of your argument do not support your claim, that is all, nothing personal aginst you at all.
Without getting way off into the existential weeds about what it means 'to exist' or how we can tell that 'reality' is not an illusion, I suggest that we lay some simple ground rules and define our terms so we can both speak the same language.
You exist, I exist, for the reasons that you mentioned. You can see me, converse with me, and the like. The physical universe 'exists' for the sake of our excercise. That is to say, that which can been seen, like you and I.
The claim that a supernatural being exists is a proposition that lies outside of our physical universe and estlablished reality. We cannot see him/her/it, or speak with him/her/it.
Now you might say 'god' speaks to you, but has anyone else ever heard that converstaion take place? Our existance is real, becasue everyone in this forum can see our converstaion, so the proposition is not analogus.
You are saying;
I exist:it is obvious, you cant disprove it THEREFORE God exists, you can disprove it.
You can substitute the word "God" with anything you like. Gremelins, ghosts, Bigfoot, Chupacabra etc. You are going from a natural proposition to a supernatural one. The premises are not equal.
I hope that made some sense. Hopefully some of the others here will clrea it up better than I did!
Because "existence" is a claim that admits direct evidence!
Adam: "I exist! Anyone who wishes to talk to me may do so."
Right! You are offering evidence of your existence, which is easy to do BECAUSE YOU EXIST!
Adam: "If someone then claims that I don't exist, surely they then must prove to the thousands of people who have conversed with me, that I don't in actual fact exist?"
You are mixing two things here. If the "someone" has never heard any of the evidence of your existence, then it is rational for them to doubt you exist (especially if you are supposedly endowed with magical capabilities). If, however, you say "Here I am!", standing before them, then it is up to the skeptic to either accept your claim, or REFUTE YOUR POSITIVE EVIDENCE. In the latter case, they are indeed making a positive claim: e.g. that your evidence is faulty. If that is what they claim, then they are absolutely obliged to back it up (e.g. by demonstrating that "you" are simply a hologram, or some such). Positive claims require evidence.
Adam: "How can it be that the status quo must be proved? Surely someone who contradicts the 'given' (I realise you don't accept it as a given), bears the onus of proof?"
To many people alien abductions are "real". Many people claim to converse with their dead ancestors, bend spoons telepathically, etc. To them these are the "status quo". Are you obliged to believe them simply because they do? If I told you I kept a heard of elephants in my swimming pool would you believe me without some evidence?
By the way, the "status quo" for your god is that she is nowhere to be found. I've never seen a trace of her, or any other invisible conscious entity for that matter.
As I mentioned above, I can only hope and pray (without meaning to sound arrogant, self-righteous or offensive) that God reveals Himself to you TANGIBLY, so that you might have a change in default position. I understand completely that until that happens, your default position is absolutely logical, and defensible, and there is no reason for you to change your view-point. You do not need to defend your position.
For you, the default position is that Allah doesn't exist, right? And you would also quickly dismiss from your mind claims to the existence of the gods of Mt. Olympus, Thor, RA, and in fact all of the over 10,000 gods that thousands and millions of people have worshiped in human history. I would guess that you think all other gods and goddesses are imaginary, right? If I'm wrong here, please maturely correct me. Don't put on any airs of arrogant superiority when you respond. Just keep it civil.
Adam, when you are able to admit why it is OK for you to lightly dismiss the claims of thousands of other religions without so much as a blink, then you'll understand how others can dismiss the claims of your religion so easily.
If you are able to present tangible evidence for your god or any other god, then that would be interesting. In the meantime, all you really have a is a storybook filled with amazing talking animals, flying chariots, swimming ax heads, fantastic invisible powerful spirit creatures, witches, divination, magic, and a sexless, un-dead, zombie, god-man.
It resembles mythology and fantasy just a little to much.
To doubt that all these interesting stories are less than reality, especially in light of the lack of evidence supporting the existence of all these odd things, seems not only reasonable, but wise.
All it asked for was a level of intellectual discussion, to enable people (yes, including myself) to agree or disagree with other posts, and actually come to some sort of conclusion. Reading through a hundred posts of abuse clearly does not really be