Sounds like you've outwitted yourself.

You need to get angry. ;)

Fear is the mind killer.
Anger is the fear killer.
Stand up for yourself against your God.

Gosh, you really are having a tough time, aren't you, Chris? You poor, poor, fundie thing!

I did not have a terrible time at all when I walked away from Christianity. The air of unbelief is clean and pure, its burden light. Now that I know my time on earth is short, the colours and sounds and experiences of this world are brighter, more vibrant, more satisfying. Why would I want to end such a fantastic life?

Now you run off and read your Bronze Age book about demons and hell and pain and eternal fire, and leave us alone.

Chris,
Some people's answers are just cruel,but we can't change other people...right?
I denounced Christianity recently and have had a few thoughts about my choice, but it doesn't take me long to get back to reality. Try watching a video from NASA Hubble. It's a good way to remind ourselves just how insignificant the earth is in the whole relm of things. I choose the Universal God.

You said:

As I see it, any atheist position will rest on two or three assumptions, the most common being that human reason is sufficient to determine the validity of any proposition. However, in assuming this, doesn't the atheist thereby admit a prejudice into any argument they might use?



What other thing can we use but reason? In fact, you used reason to determine that reason might not be enough! hahahaha

Reason is all we can rely on. Reason and logic. ie, truth.

Truth is, Christianity CAN be shown to be false BEYOND any reasonable doubt. Trillions of words have been written on this issue and for me, I personally have read ENOUGH of them to put the issue to rest completely.

I suggest you read up on the "dirt" of Christianty and the contradictions of it. Also, Earl Doherty's Jesus Puzzle site/book is good.

tim

In my own life, Chris, I've both believed in a god and believed in myself. Believing in myself worked very well until...I found myself unable to control my destructive craving for alcohol. I tried AA's recommendation. I admitted my failure at self management and asked my higher power to take that craving away. In an instant it was gone, and it has not returned in 327 days. But I do have to keep on turning the management of my life to something I now call God, who has greater knowledge than I have. In time I am developing a greater faith and an easier reliance on this being I call God, just because of what that Being has shown me in every day experiences walking with him.

I think the crux of it for me is...I could never have thought my way there.

shI feel for you, kiddo, but you've got to realize something: you're framing the question in a pejorative way. That's because you've always been taught that faith is superior to reason, when it isn't. Faith is defined as "belief without evidence." Another word for that is "gullibility." Faith is not a virtue. Faith is a character flaw.

*Reason* is superior to faith because, quite simply, reason *works*.

I didn't abjure [fundamentalist] christianity suddenly; I grew into atheism over a period of years, as a result of a wonderful spiritual journey. I grew up a christian fundamentalist with all the same fears that you're experiencing. Rejoice when I tell you that there's a cure for what ails you - and the cure is reason.

The rational life is sober (as opposed to the addiction of theism), practical, clean, and awe-inspiring. Instead of singing that this world is not my home, I'm just a-passin' through, I *know* that I am part of the planet and all its wonders. Each lifeform is my relative, however distant. I am *connected*.

What's more, atheism doesn't mean that I can live my life hell-bent-for-leather. It means I must conciously do my best at all times to behave morally and responsibly, because there isn't any big supernatural guy out there who's going to administer some ultimate justice or magically make things right. Sometimes it's tough to think through moral choices, but it's ever so much more rewarding than simply looking up an "answer" in an old book of mythology. I've actually found that my behavior has improved and become *more* responsible since I grew into atheism, rather than less.

And realizing that the horrid biblical god who would torture a human "soul" [in quotes because it's only a theological conceit and doesn't really exist] is just an old myth is calming and liberating. Now that I know no such being as "god" exists, I can't believe how I ever believed that it did - although I can clearly remember doing so, as I can clearly remember the fear of eternal damnation.

How can you call a being that would torture a concious entity on an everlasting basis a "loving" god? The simple answer is, you can't.

Don't be afraid of where reason leads you. There's nothing you need to be saved *from*. Life is finite, but life is good. Embrace it, instead of pinning your hopes on some reward in the afterlife promised to you by a death cult.

Alan... that's hardly the way to be going about things. Should not part of the site's encouragement process for ex-Christians extend to relieving the doubts of those truly seeking answers? Where else might the original poster go, to a Christian apologetics website? That would hardly do any good, for obvious reasons.
Even I still have random doubts of my own, and it helps a lot to have nonjudgmental intellectual support from the non-Christian side of things.

To Chris: It sounds as though you're overthinking things a little too much. You're going to drive yourself crazy with it. (Curiously, that was one of the things that led me to deconversion. I couldn't take the constant threat of damnation along with my growing apathy towards God and prayer, and needed to do something to retain my sanity.)

Your dilemma seems to be whether you think you can rely an atheist's reason as the truth. Sadly, there will always be a bias on both ends of the argument, and so all we can do is take both, and use our individual inner reason to draw our own conclusion from them. And that information doesn't even have to be limited to Christianity, either. Let your mind wander; explore other theologies, reasonings and scientific theories! Personally, first of all, I suggest looking into astronomy and pictures of outer space. That put a lot of things about the universe and the concept of life into perspective for me. But everyone is different. Try what you will.

I rather enjoy the exercise, myself... philosophy is a refreshing and fascinating subject.

You still need to break it down even further. I am not Buddhist what I will say next will sound Zen. Sorry, but this is how I see it.

Craig Duckett over at www.control-z.com talks about the artifice of words. Duckett is one of the contributors to the Debunking Christianity blog. He explains reality is what IS before language is used to explain it. Though he does talk somewhat of Buddhist principles, he does a very good job breaking down a lot of our assumptions about reality.

Basically, what I took from his site can be summed up by taking a look at a newborn child. My daughter, who is a month old today, doesn't talk, and doesn't understand words yet. She isn't concerned about where she came from, if a god exists, if there is a heaven, etc. She isn't concerned with logic and reason, and doesn't appreciate the philosophers and literary greats. She just lives and ''is''. And she does quite well.

Again, although I don't practice Buddhism, meditation, or Zen, he brings up some very interesting points about ''Enlightenment''. Although I am very passionate about knowing the truth of my existence, and I love philosophy, science, and religion, and I am even open to the possibility that a god might exist, I find a lot of comfort seeing the world in such a basic manner. The world just ''is'', and I just ''am''.

I highly recommend his site.

Here’s something that might help: Julia Sweeney’s “Letting Go of God.” It’s an audio book and it can be found itunes.

What most people don't realize is just how powerful the human mind and body really is. Everything that we as humans accomplish, we do so on our own. Many won't acknowledge this because they have been subjected to the god idea too early in life or at low times in life such as alcoholic or drug abusers and don't realize that they themselves accomplished what they give a "god" credit for. We are truly amazing creatures. Give yourself a break and think for yourself.

Reason is not sufficient to determine the validity of any proposition. For anything of this world, it also requires validation through evidence.

And if not reason, then what? Unreason? Which is approximately what faith comes down to these days.

I used to have thoughts like "what if it's true", too. And when I thought about it more, or did some research on it, I found less and less reason to think it could be. What really bought it home to me, though, was when I began investigating various paranormal claims, and found each and every one of them to involve a deception or a lie. And I realized it was no different with the paranormal claims of religion.

Chris-

I have a couple of thoughts that will offer and hope that they help. Sounds like youre really struggling. I feel for you. Christian apologetics can get you tied up in knots and Christian theology isn’t exactly comforting for the doubter.

The honest answer is that yes, atheism does assume the validity of reason. As far as I can tell, this is an irreducible assumption, or an axiom – the starting point of an intellectual system that is not itself subject to proof. How would you prove reason? With reason? That’s circular, of course, and reason itself forbids it. Some of the individual axioms in logic, such as x=x (the law of identity), are thought to be “self-evident” and that is why they are not further argued. This is debatable, but the larger point is that yes, atheism is not an assumptionless system.

Two things to remember. First, Christianity “believes” in reason, too. Without reason you would speak and think gibberish, even when talking apologetics. Many Christian apologists are careful to state their ideas in formal logical form. So, it is not that atheism assumes reasons without warrant and Christianity does not; *both* must assume, and use, reason. And reasons seems to work just fine to get us around our lives, whether we are believers or not. The question is, why does Christianity go on and assume more?

Secondly, the main argument Christians seem to put up about reason being a bias is better stated, I think, in terms of the *authority* of reason. Christians say it is a bias to claim the authority of reason, which they point out (correctly) cannot be argued, but rather assumed, and so they feel justified in claiming their own authority without argument, such as the Bible.

The problem with this is that *they use reason too*, i.e. they clearly believe and do not question that reason constitutes some authority, just not (in their view) the highest authority. So, Christians and atheists agree: reason has authority. The question is, how much?

My answer is that any discussion of this question, any argument about it, any assessment of the options, *must assume the highest authority of reason*. How could it be otherwise? Look at what you are doing in your post! You are using reason to question reason and the validity of Christianity. You must assume that reason can settle that question, otherwise there would be no point in talking about it.

And what is the alternative? Assume the authority of the Bible, since our highest authorities must be assumed? Okay, fine – so I will assume the authority of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Now, prove me wrong. *Without* assuming the authority of reason to challenge my claim.

See? Reason has to be your starting point before you can think at all. You must use it to evaluate all claims, including the question of whether the Bible has validity.

The question is not whether atheism has assumptions or not. Of course it does. But so does Christianity. The question to ask yourself is: which system assumes more? And which assumes things we can do without? We all agree on reason. Why add more?

Good luck –

Richard

A question you should ask youself is why would a loving parent harshly punish their child for asking logical questions.


Sandra

Hey Steven B. I am a recovering drunk with 16 years of sobriety under my belt. To give credit to an imaginary invisible man in the sky would be short selling my accomplishment of getting my shit together. My sobriety came from a combination of will power, the want to change, and real people in the real word. God Damn it makes me mad when people give credit to something that isn't there. It was all you Steve. If God were real and really cared he wouldn't have given you a drinking problem in the first place. He would have kept your drinking fun and under control for the long haul.

xrayman

I didn't have time to read all of the comments above, so I may repeat things, but here goes...

First, I think you seem to be thinking, but still upset that you'll think too much and go to hell. Don't believe that "Pascal's Wager" thing. Strict belief without questioning is not the safest bet. If God is Allah, then you're going to hell, for example (although I HIGHLY doubt that). Also, imagine that there is a God out there who left absolutely no trace of His existence and wanted humans to use their minds and actually question his existence to show that humans can think for themselves. If that's the case, then He might send to hell anyone who doesn't think for him/herself.

As for me, I don't think that there is a God and I'm not scared of going to hell. You see, if God merely sent everyone who didn't believe in him to hell, He would be a tyrant worse than Hitler or anyone else. I'm living in Japan right now (thought I'm from the U.S.) and I've met some of the sweetest people. I've also lived in Singapore and have Chinese and other friends who are not Christians. Like I said, they're all great people. Now, will God send them to Hell? If a shy and polite 14-year old Japanese girl who has a dream to work for a charity when she grows up instead gets hit and killed by a bus tomorrow, would she go to hell? Think about it. Any God who would make her suffer forever is the vilest being in the universe. And if that is so, then isn't that God more like a devil? And then, isn't hell more like heaven and vice versa? I'd rather be with nice people like her than with Pat Robertson, that's for sure. So don't fear Hell. If God will send you there for merely expressing doubt, then your God is not an awesome God.

"As I see it, any atheist position will rest on two or three assumptions, the most common being that human reason is sufficient to determine the validity of any proposition."

That's an approximation of an atheist's thoughts, but in truth, that statement is false. Atheists don't say that human reason can determine the validity of any proposition. If one proposition is that "There are three trillion planets in the universe" and another holds that there are three trillion and one planets in the universe", an atheist might feel that it's impossible to ever know which is right. However, we know that the number surely isn't five and if someone knows beyond a doubt the exact number of planets, then we want to see the evidence, and that shouldn't only consist of a 2,000 year old book. Similarly, no scientist has ever observed a flying sleigh pulled by reindeer during Christmas eve, so that leads atheists to believe that the nonexistence of modern-day present-giving Santa Claus is more likely than the existence of him.

As for the suicide stuff... You should think about the slim chances that brought you into the world. You are the the marriage of one egg (one of which is excreted every month) and one sperm (300,000 of which are excreted every ejaculation) and any other combination would have produced one of hundreds of millions of possible siblings, who would instead get to live life.

Many have written great responses to your post. I won't elaborate much except to say that many of us, myself included were brainwashed as children. As Dawkins states, as children, we have a duality in our thinking. At a young age we tend to find it very easy to think of our consciousness and our physical self as two different things. It's not until we get older that we're more capable of connecting the two into one whole being. (I hope I remembered that all correctly). The church exploits this youthful outlook. It sticks with us for a long time and it's hard to get over.

Your fears are all in your head. They're not real and neither is god.

Atheism is based, as you say, in the assumption of rationality and so is everything else. Reason is what gives thoughts meaning and if you try to give up reason, then you can't make any intelligible proposition.
All people, religious or nor, assume rationality because that is the only way to have coherent thinking and action.

So, don't worry about it. You simply found the basis of all cognition and reasoning.

Chris,

There is a lot of valuable advice already given here..the only thing I have to add to to keep asking the hard questions...of christianity (or other beliefs... including atheism). I have been where you are and it is only by asking the tough questions that you get to the issue even if the answer is unknowable. Also commit to being scrupulously honest with yourself. I truly believe that many of the atheists on this site, if they were honest with themselves, would agree that there are presuppostions of atheism that don't make sense and cannot be reached thru reason. That is why at best I believe that there can only be agnostics (which I consider myself to be) despite what many on this site will tell you.

Chris:
You have been brainwashed, most likely by your parents in the beginning and the church as you grew up.

I was the opposite and have no fears of the fire and brimstone teachings of the bible.

Just where do you suppose this "heaven" and "hell that worry you so much are located? Common sense and clear thinking should tell you that these places are
the delusions of very disturbed people. I'm sure that science has not found either of these places and would totally denounce their existence.

Get yourself clear of all the people who think that way and start to enjoy the only life we have and quit worrying about imaginary god(s) and some gold plated afterlife crap.

You most likely have read the bible, now just think about what it is saying. It is full of 2000 year old mythology which is not believable.

http://godisimaginary.com/
is a good place to start.

I wish you success in your
conversion to reality.

That is why at best I believe that there can only be agnostics (which I consider myself to be) despite what many on this site will tell you.

With due respect, I'd like to once again clear up this common misconception about Atheism.

"Atheism" is not a proclamation that "GOD DOES NOT EXIST!!"; it's not a manifesto that there is no god. Again, it is merely the lack of belief that God/gods exist. In other words, one can still lack absolute knowledge concerning the existence of something, and either believe, or not believe, that the existence of said thing is likely. To illustrate, one can never be certain that there are not invisible pixies in their closet. In that sense, one must be "Agnostic"(lack of knowledge) But at the same time, one can still conclude that it's not bloody likely that there are pixies in their closet, and therefore, rightfully lack belief. No "presuppositions" needed.

Hey so I was looking for an old testimonial I wrote when I was a witch. I am a christian now. I stumbled upon this instead. In 1 Timothy the Bible says "God hath not given a spirit of fear but of power love and a sound mind." I've been walking with the Lord now for 7 years. Since coming to Him he has healed me of depression, post traumatic stress disorder, asthma (caused by a spirit of fear)and has provided for me in ways that would take too long to go into here. Besides, I have the suspision my entry may be deleted. Anyhow, God is good all of the time. When your peace has been stolen you know the devil is at work. He prowls around like a lion searching to steal kill and destroy. Lions pick off thoses on the outskirts. If you want to know if there is a God and who he is... Ask Him. He is big enough to tell you. When I asked who the God of creation was with my whole heart He revealed himself to me. He said His name was Elohim. That is the word that means the plural form of God. Father, Son, Sprit. It is in Genesis. The Father willed creation the word spoke it and the Holy Spirit did it. The Word being Jesus is in 1 John, among other places. A lot of people don't really want to know the truth. It sounds like you do. When you step under His wings of protection you will find His blessings. When you step out from under His wings you will recieve your enemies blessings. In Psalms the Bible says the Father gives His children rest. Return to His safety. He is waiting to sing over you with joy. Zephania 3:17 The Lord our God is in the midst of you, a saviour [who saves] He will rejoice over you with joy,He will rest[in silent satisfaction] and in His love He will make no mention [of past sins or even recall them], He will exalt over you with singing. I was a like the prodigal son, well a girl version and there isn't a single blessing He has with held from me. Even though I was a witch and a stripper and went totally after my own will. He is a Faithful Father and all He wants to do is take joy in you and love on you. There is no condemnation for those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after His Holy Spirit. God bless you and keep you from all the wiles of the enemy.

Hi "His Child,"

You are a victim of magical thinking. I was caught in that trap for 30 years. Maybe one day you'll be free of it. I hope so.

HC: In 1 Timothy the Bible says "God hath not given a spirit of fear but of power love and a sound mind."

***Listen closely. Reciting what "the Bible says", or what any other religious document "says", is immaterial--- that is, unless/until you can provide evidence that said document is objectively/universally true. Hint: To say that the bible is true because it says it's true, is circular reasoning, and thus, it falls under the bare assertion fallacy....i.e.."Hey, the Holy Qur'an is true!!!... and I know this because it says right in it's pages that its true!!!"

So what?

HC: I've been walking with the Lord now for 7 years. Since coming to Him he has healed me of depression, post traumatic stress disorder, asthma (caused by a spirit of fear)and has provided for me in ways that would take too long to go into here.

When you say you've been "walking with the Lord", that, of course, is metaphorically speaking. You haven't really been "walking" with any "Lords". Do you firmly believe in a "Lord"? Sure, but until you offer emipircal/tangible evidence that this "Lord" exists anywhere outside you head, your belief dead-ends at "I believe". Your ailments were, at best, healed by the placebo effect of belief. Moreover, people of other faiths/other geographical locations have been claiming to have been healed by their respective "Lords" since the dark ages. How would you explain that? It's all in their heads, right?....coincidence, right?

HC: Anyhow, God is good all of the time

LMAO! Um, define "good".

HC: He prowls around like a lion searching to steal kill and destroy. Lions pick off thoses on the outskirts. If you want to know if there is a God and who he is... Ask Him.

We've already "asked Him" only to be blatantly ignored, many of us, for more than half our lives. There comes a time when we must be intellectually honest with ourselves, and say there is either no one there, or if there is, they just don't give damn. And anyway, you're a grown adult, right? Do you seriously believe that an evil man-devil in a red suit who lives in the center of the earth is responsible forth the ills of mankind? If so, have you ever critically examined that belief?

HC: When I asked who the God of creation was with my whole heart He revealed himself to me. He said His name was Elohim.

Lol. Can you describe this "voice" for us? Was it low-pitched?..or more tenor? Did "Elohim" speak to you in Hebrew?..or English? If English, was it with a British accent? Please, do tell.

HC: A lot of people don't really want to know the truth.

Which is why people bury their heads in the sand of religion.

HC: In Psalms the Bible sa..(CUT!!!!)[edit: insert irrelevant cherry-picked bible verse]

See here***, above.

HC: God bless you and keep you from all the wiles of the enemy.

God 'less you. May reason keep you from all the wiles of ignorance.

Hi Boomslang, sorry couldn't use my sign in His Child
You seem a little on the angry side. I've been there. Okay so you said you didn't want me to quote the Bible because it didn't mean anything. But then you got angry that I cited a scripture without the adress. In Proverbs 26:4 the Bible says to Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26:5 Says Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise unto his own conceit. So I was tossed up about whethor or not to answer. However I am not in danger of renouncing my God who has delivered me faithfully so I figured what the heck. Walking with the Lord not Lords. I guess you could say it was metaphorical but it's really pretty literal. See I have a close relationship with Him. He talks to me and I listen. I talk to Him and He listens. He warns me of danger...so I can avoid it. One time my daughter had a neighbor friend she played with. God told me to stop sending her there for her safety. I obeyed and later found out the dadhad questionable character in some areas. We prayed for direction and God moved us across the country a few years ago. So yeah I've walked with Him. I spend time talking to God reading His word praying and living my life with his companionship and guidence. I used to ache inside with loneliness. Everyone has a God shaped void. When I did not have God I was never at Peace. That has changed. Yeah, your right the fact that I've been healed is a poor argument. The devil has counterfits for the real blessings of God. Jesus even said that it didn't matter if people saw miracles it would not change whethor or not people would follow Him. I used to do Reiki so I do know about other means of healings. The thing is though that I used to get mad and say throw a cup at my husbands head. That's changed after spending time with God whose name is Love I can disagree peacefully. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.Against such things there is no law Galatians 5. So I'm a nicer person and I feel good. I'm not mad at you. Neither is God. He extends His love to you every day so that you have the opportunity to feel His love. It isn't even because you are that great. It's because His son died and stands next to Him waiting to vouch for you. He waits for you to recieve Him just so He can pour His love out on you. It isn't about being good. It's just about receiving a totally free gift to live free from sin and condemnation. When you accept Christ His Spirit dwells inside of you helping and comforting you. He doesn't get mad when you blow it. His very essence is forgiveness. When you decide to follow Him you will indeed hear His voice in John 10:27 Jesus says My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I've heard Gods voice many times in many ways it is a still quiet voice most often so you have to be still inside to hear it. Occasionally it is very loud and awesome.It is described that way in Psalm 29. I'm noy going to write it all out but feel free to look it up. define Good. Okay a God who wants nothing more than to free you from all fear anger shame unforgiveness strife envy condemnation suffering disease torment ect. A God who asks nothing of you aside that you believe that He is good loves you wishes the best for you sent his son to make you righteous because he Knew you couldn't live according to the law on your own so he substituted in your place and clothes you with His righteousness continuesly so that you can stand unashamed &free in His presence for all eternity. That is how I define Good. And Good All of the Time. Such is the nature of God. The devil. No he does not wear a red suit. He was an angel who decided he wanted to rule heaven. He was the most beautiful angel God created his name was Lucifer. He rallied together 1/3 of the angels God created. God kicked them out of heaven. Now they are disembodied creations. They look around trying to borrow peoples bodies and manifest themselves in all kinds of evil maners. Some of these demons have assighnments against you. There names are doubt and unbelief. Torment anger hatred ect. Remember the okld cartoons with an angel on one side and the devil on the other? It's kindof like that. When you have thoughts like "I'll never forgive him for that" or "I hate her she's so.." that is the enemy of your soul whispering in your ear looking to help destroy your peace.Really listen to your thoughts if you don't believe me. In Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. so yeah your right a lot of the battle for your soul is in your mind. Do I choose to fear or have faith? Do I choose to hate or love? Do I choose to harbor unforgiveness or forgive? We make these choices every day. All God wants is to help you prosper in every way for your total peace and all you have to do is accept that Jesus died on a cross and three days later rose from the dead conquering sin for all eternity so you could be free. He stayed on eath for a while appearing all over the world before his accension. you can find accounts of his appearance in many different cultures including native American. Well, I have a life and my kids need to sleep. I hope you find the truth. You don't have to be mad. God loves you so much.

Boom,
Doesn't 'his child' remind you of another female 'admirer' you had recent dealings with...perhaps a bit TOO much?

ATF

I just want to know if the latest crop of Christian posters are attending school. Some of the writing and comprehension skills seem a bit lacking.

His Child,

Here's a little advice: Since nearly no one is going to read through a giant block of uninterrupted text, I suggest you learn the meaning and application of the word "paragraph."

Dear Anonymous/"His Child",

I'm afraid the webmaster has a point. It pained me to read only the first 20 words of your "rebuttle", based on content, alone.....nevermind the remaining 2 million words you managed to jam together. Although, if I squint my eyes and look at it, I can see that you quoted some more scripture for me to totally ignore.

If you feel inclined, feel free to re-write your post using PARAGRAPHS, and I may, or may not, pick out and disect a few of your arguments. BTW, you can leave out the scripture to save us both time. Thanks.

No one knows what God is, beyond "The creator of the Universe"

The Bible's description of God, and the asinine Jesus story, (I'm not saying that a nice guy like Jesus never lived. I understand there were several Jesus' around at the time), is obviously to silly, and illogical, for a sane person to believe.

Just saying "I don't know" works for me. It is very comforting to know that I don't have to know how or why we are here, and just go on with my life.

You don't have to completely understand the answers to all of the age old philosophical questions, to enjoy life, and be a productive, and valuable member of society!

I'm sure that when someone figures out what God is, it will get around quickly enough for me to embrace it. Till then I will just keep saying:

"I don't know, and I am fairly certain that no one els does either!"

Dano!

Haven't seen you post in a while? Is it just that I missed 'em or did you take a vacation?

I read the whole block by HC and it's mindnumbingly obtuse.

I did enjoy the little quip about boomslang being infested with the demons named doubt and unbelief. As if they don't infest HC.

I mean, if doubt was a demon how can a person not have it when it comes to any other beliefs? Is it god allowing the demon of doubt to indwell in the christian when someone states that jebus wasn't gods son? This kind of "thinking" makes me laugh.

His Child said:

Everyone has a God shaped void.

Wow! I've got an invisible, magical hole in me shaped like the Holy Farter? Glory!

But... the Holy Farter is a Spook! (John 4:24) How can a Spook have a shape?

stronger now wrote:
"Dano!
Haven't seen you post in a while? Is it just that I missed 'em or did you take a vacation?"

I've been over in the forums molesting one of those slippery Christians who wants to say proudly that they are a Christian, and then act like they are in possession of a secret reason for believing it, that no one else has.

You know the kind that you can never pin down.

Been saving HC till after my nap when I would feel stronger!

Hi Jeff!
Glad to see your nasty self is still so effectively taking em down a couple of notches.

Yeah, it does look a liitle overwhelming with no breaks. Sorry.

Hi Boomslang, sorry couldn't use my sign in His Child

You seem a little on the angry side. I've been there. Okay so you said you didn't want me to quote the Bible because it didn't mean anything. But then you got angry that I cited a scripture without the adress.

In Proverbs 26:4 the Bible says to Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26:5 Says Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise unto his own conceit. So I was tossed up about whethor or not to answer. However I am not in danger of renouncing my God who has delivered me faithfully so I figured, what the heck.

Walking with the Lord not Lords. I guess you could say it was metaphorical but it's really pretty literal. See I have a close relationship with Him. He talks to me and I listen. I talk to Him and He listens. He warns me of danger...so I can avoid it.

One time my daughter had a neighbor friend she played with. God told me to stop sending her there for her safety. I obeyed and later found out the dad had questionable character in some areas.

We prayed for direction and God moved us across the country a few years ago. We found out later that things would have been really bad if we hadn't moved.

So yeah, I've walked with Him. I spend time talking to God, reading His word, praying and living my life with his companionship and guidence.

I used to ache inside with loneliness. Everyone has a God shaped void. When I did not have God I was never at Peace. That has changed.

Yeah, you're right. The fact that I've been healed is a poor arguement. The devil has counterfits for the real blessings of God. Jesus even said that it didn't matter if people saw miracles. It would not change whether or not people would follow Him. I used to do Reiki so I do know about other means of healings.

The thing is though when I used to get mad I'd throw a cup at my husbands head. That's changed after spending time with God whose name is Love. I can disagree peacefully.

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against suchthings there is no law Galatians 5. So I'm a nicer person and I feel good.

I'm not mad at you. Neither is God. He extends His love to you every day so that you have the opportunity to feel His love.

It isn't even because you are that great. It's because His son died and stands next to Him waiting to vouch for you. He waits for you to recieve Him just so He can pour His love out on you.

It isn't about being good. It's just about receiving a totally free gift to live free from sin and condemnation. When you accept Christ His Spirit dwells inside of you helping and comforting you. He doesn't get mad when you blow it. His very essence is forgiveness.

When you decide to follow Him you will indeed hear His voice.

John 10:27 Jesus says My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.

I've heard Gods voice many times in many ways it is a still quiet voice most often so you have to be still inside to hear it.
Occasionally it is very loud and awesome.It is described that way in Psalm 29. I'm noy going to write it all out but feel free to look it up.

define Good. Okay. AGod who wants nothing more than to free you from all fear, anger, shame, unforgiveness, strife, envy condemnation, suffering, disease, torment ect.

A God who asks nothing of you aside that you believe that He is good, loves you, wishes the best for you, and sent Hisson to make you righteous because HeKnew you couldn't live according to the law on your own. He died in your place and clothes you with His righteousness continuously so that you can stand unashamed and free in His presence for all eternity. That is how I define Good.

And Good All of the Time. Such is the nature of God.

The devil. No he does not wear a red suit. He was an angel who decided he wanted to rule heaven. He was the most beautiful angel God created.

His name was Lucifer. He rallied together 1/3 of the angels God created. God kicked them out of heaven. Now they are disembodied creations. They look around trying to borrow peoples bodies and manifest themselves in all kinds of evil maners. Some of these demons have assignments against you.

Don't take that personally, they have assignments against us all. They are supposed to keep non- believers from believing. They are supposed to keep believers from the depth of fellowship God intended for them to have with Him and other believers. Their names are doubt and unbelief, unforgiveness, torment,anger, hatred, etc. By whatever negative emotion they cause, you can call them.

Remember the old cartoons with an angel on one side and the devil on the other? It's kindof like that. When you have thoughts like "I'll never forgive him for that" or "I hate her she's so.." that is the enemy of your soul whispering in your ear looking to help destroy your peace.Really listen to your thoughts if you don't believe me.

In Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

So yeah, you're right. A lot of the battle for your soul is in your mind. Do I choose to fear or have faith? Do I choose to hate or love? Do I choose to harbor unforgiveness or forgive? We make these choices every day.

All God wants is to help you prosper in every way for your total peace and all you have to do is accept that Jesus died on a cross and three days later rose from the dead conquering sin for all eternity so you could be free.

He stayed on eath for a while appearing all over the world before his accension. You can find accounts of his appearance in many different cultures including native American.

I hope you find the truth. You don't have to be mad. God loves you so much.

If you find it hard to say or spell the name Jesus think about why that might be. It is the most powerful name on earth and the devils hate it.

When I had a familiar Spirit in me it was hard to touch the Bible it made me want to throw up. The devil fights hard to keep people from God. It's his job.

He hates God so much he wants you stolen from God because God thinks you are a jewel. Malachi 3:17
He wants to destroy you because God created you for His pleasure. It's not even about us so much . It's all between them.

The devil hates God so he attacks what God loves. God saw the attacks were too great for us to overcome. He sent Jesus who gave us a get out of Hell free card. Now we just choose. If we screw up after we choose... He's faithful to forgive us.

It's so simple but the devil makes it seem so hard...Oh well, I made my choice I'm happy God bless you all.

His Child,

Just click the "other" radio button and type in "His Child." It's really quite simple.

Now, about this saying or writing Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

Hmm. Easy.

Yeshua was his real name though. And that's no problem either.

Superstition and magical thinking must do funny things to people.

HC, you became a better person because you were tired of being a bitch. There was no magic in it. It was all you. Good for you!

JESUS.
jesus.
jebus.
jesus christ.
jesus h. christ.
christ on the cross.
christ on a cracker.

Yeshua smeshua, it don't matter how I write it or say it I still don't "feel the burn". Oh wait, am I supposed to be touching a bible to feel it....

...O.K. now I'm sitting on a bible and writing the name (jesus...susej) there backward forward... Still nothin'.

Perhaps I need to sit on a bible while making a ventriliquist dummy say jesus while I drink a glass of holy water...then I'll feel awful trying to say it 'cause of them demons.

Boomslang,

I wanted to apologize. I should not have referenced you as a fool. I don't know your story.

I'm guessing somebody claiming to be a christian hurt you. They may have been a christian. One hurt me a couple of weeks ago. Christians aren't perfect. That's why they need Christ.

I'm glad you can say Jesus, Webmaster. Regardless of whether He is God or not He certainly was a man worth the respect of saying or writing His name correctly. I hear love when you write Yeshua. You've been in His presence before.

HC said: It's just about receiving a totally free gift to live free from sin and condemnation.

Whose condemnation is the gift good for circumventing?

If you are tempted to reply "God's", I implore you to really comprehend the ludicrousness of that suggestion, (and yet I shall grant you that you are, to my knowledge, right on the money as regards doctrine!) I have added two words to your original phrasing, just to clarify the madness.

"It's just about receiving a totally free gift (from God) to live free from sin and condemnation (from God)."

fjell

Hey Child!
Haven't you heard?

God blinked his eye and "unmade" Satan and all of those other bad angels.

Where is God's name have you been, that you didn't know that?

He also demoted Jesus from "only son" to just son. He realized that to call Jesus his "only son," relegated us to second class sons and daughters, or chopped liver if you may.

I was walking with Jesus (I run across him at Walmart quite often), down here in one of his favorite States, NC, just last Tuesday, when he gave me the update.

“It's so simple but the devil makes it seem so hard...”

ORLY?

Well Anony, I’ve been blessed (lack of a better word) a wonderfully nonreligious upbringing…so I’m somewhat and interloper on this site but I feel that it is one of the best places for insight of the nonreligious, the newly nonreligious, and the ridiculously religious.

As for your statement from above, it reflects a lack of understanding of this site.

I mean really if you had bothered to read anything of the anti-testimonies, you would see that a lot of people here couldn’t have open their opened their minds and hearts towards your god - short of a chest cutter and scalpel.

Ask Stronger Now and Xrayman on how low they got while begging your god. What they got was silence.

Seriously, if I am that important to your god, he sure didn't fight for us very hard. Pactically, handed us over to the Debbil on a buttered cast-iron frying pan.

I'm not asking for much. I’d take a view of his holy ass or his assholy. Just flash, even. Or the very least more than his silence. "Hello, is this thing on?"

If your god exists, he a smarmy, nasty motherfucker who is not worth worshiping.

Alooneyus, just how did Big "G" kick Big "D" out of heaven, when they both are supposed to be spooks,(spirits)? I've ask God, why he ever let me believe in such SHIT, but, he still refuses to answer me. Roger...A/A

SEO said:

"I mean really if you[anony'/H.C.] had bothered to read anything of the anti-testimonies, you would see that a lot of people here couldn’t have open their opened their minds and hearts towards your god - short of a chest cutter and scalpel.

Seriously, if I am that important to your god, he sure didn't fight for us very hard. Pactically, handed us over to the Debbil on a buttered cast-iron frying pan.

I'm not asking for much. I’d take a view of his holy ass or his assholy. Just flash, even. Or the very least more than his silence. 'Hello, is this thing on?'

If your god exists, he a smarmy, nasty motherfucker who is not worth worshiping."

Eeeeeee-yesss! A women after my own heart!(if not female, disregard that part) Thanks, SEO, for saving me the time of responding to that long, vapid, immaterial, appeal to emotion.

Note to Christian Anonies: We did NOT leave the Christian "Faith" because of "other Christians"; we left because of the Christian "Faith". Get over it......aND yourselves. Thanks.

Byegod Bill, I am so happy for your sobriety of 16 yrs. I used to ask Gawd,(in Jebuck's name of course) to help me stop drinking, but I also "never" got an answer. I use to be a everyday drunk, even though it hardly interfered with my job; but goddamned, the hangovers I took to work with me. Somehow, after over 25 yrs. of sickness, the craving for alcohol just seemed to gradually go away, no thanks, too no God. Anyway, congratulations too YOU. PEACE, Roger

Hey Boomslang,

Can you please elaborate on this statement?

Atheism" is not a proclamation that "GOD DOES NOT EXIST!!"; it's not a manifesto that there is no god. Again, it is merely the lack of belief that God/gods exist. In other words, one can still lack absolute knowledge concerning the existence of something, and either believe, or not believe, that the existence of said thing is likely. To illustrate, one can never be certain that there are not invisible pixies in their closet. In that sense, one must be "Agnostic"(lack of knowledge) But at the same time, one can still conclude that it's not bloody likely that there are pixies in their closet, and therefore, rightfully lack belief. No "presuppositions" needed.

...not meaning to be contentious but this seems like doublespeak to me. If you "rightfully" lack belief doesn't if follow that it would be right to proclaim that there is no God? I don't see the difference.

If atheism is simply a "belief" that there is no god then I don't see how this is qualitatively different fron agnosticism.

...looking for some more education on this subject.

fiell,
God doesn't accuse. Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethern is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan is the accuser. God made everything wonderful. Sin entered into the world with Adam. Some people say Eve but they are wrong. Eve was decieved. If Adam had chosen to break the curse she had bound herself to they wouldn't have gotten kicked out of the garden.

Yes, it's true. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. He does want us to be free of that by accepting his perfect sacrifice. I broke the majority of the ten commandments before accepting Christ. I'm sure everyone has told a lie.

Sin hurts people. It hurts to sin and it hurts to be sinned against. God doesn't want anybody to hurt.

Dano,
Because Jesus was there helping to create everything and is God and is sinless he is more important. Could you live a perfect life before God and be sacrificed to pay for the sins of the world? I couldn't.

If you don't believe there is sin in the world take a hard look around you.

Dear seo,
God doesn't expect people to beg. Actually his word says to come boldly before his throne of grace and mercy.

Hebrews 4:16 Let'stherefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I haven't read their testimonies. I stumbled upon this blog.I'm sorry that they didn't feel like they found God.

God hasn't answered every one of my prayers the way I wanted. when I asked him to reveal himself to me, he did. That didn't mean a circumstance changed or anything. It ment here I am to help you through this.

If I said "God if you're real, do this" he may not reveal himself. We pray that God's will is done not our own. He is God. There are some things that we know are God's will and so we pray for them. Never as a means to require proof though. Faith is required to please God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved by faith;and that not of yourselves;it is the gift of God:9 Not of works,lest any man should boast.

That is why the enemies first offense is to place doubt. Sometimes our ears are deaf to God for other reasons. I don't know these testimonies. I only know my own.

God has written a bunch of love letters to us all. Even if you can't hear the still voice inside, you can read about how much God loves you.

John 3:16-21
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his son to condenm the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth come into the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I tried to read the testimonies you taked about, but I couldn't find them. Can you tell me where they are?

His Child - why exactly are you using the christian bible to support your position? Is it that you think we have some sort of respect for it? Curious... -Wes.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

I love God. I was so sad when I didn't have a relationship with him.

One day I was sitting in church and there were some visitors. They went up to the front of the church for prayers.

God filled me with this knowing about the man. Something happened to him. A christian hurt him, sinned against him. It got him out of fellowship with God and the church. God let me feel his sadness. God's sadness, not the man's.

I couldn't stop crying. God saw what happened to the man and he was so grieved. He wanted the man to know he saw. He saw and He knew. He loved the man and he wanted him to know that it wasn't right what happened.

The guest speaker called me out and asked why I was crying. I told him that God just really missed the man.

I saw God's heart for those who have been wronged in the church and have left. Christians aren't perfect but God is. He isn't a respecter of persons. That means he doesn't value one over another.

He wants us all in relationship with Him. I just wanted to share that He loves us and is faithful to watch over his word. He loves people that have never known him just as much as he does those who knew him and lost their faith.

If a person does not hear the word of God they have no ability to have faith. That's why I quote the Bible.

Mike: Can you please elaborate on this[the following] statement?

I'll do my best. Here's the statement in question:

" 'Atheism' is not a proclamation that 'GOD DOES NOT EXIST!!'; it's not a manifesto that there is no god. Again, it is merely the lack of belief that God/gods exist. In other words, one can still lack absolute knowledge concerning the existence of something, and either believe, or not believe, that the existence of said thing is likely. To illustrate, one can never be certain that there are not invisible pixies in their closet. In that sense, one must be 'Agnostic'(lack of knowledge) But at the same time, one can still conclude that it's not bloody likely that there are pixies in their closet, and therefore, rightfully lack belief. No 'presuppositions' needed."

Mike: ...not meaning to be contentious but this seems like doublespeak to me. If you "rightfully" lack belief doesn't if follow that it would be right to proclaim that there is no God? I don't see the difference.

No, it wouldn't technically be right for me to proclaim my non-belief in God/gods as absolute fact, simply because it cannot be known absolutely if a "God" exists, or does not exist. On the other hand, there are certain concepts that, by definition, cannot logically exist..e.g.."square circles", "married bachelors", etc. In this sense, yes, we can have certainty of their non-existence. But that's another discussion.

But back to "God"---there is no objective definition of "God", hence, it remains an untestable/unfalsifiable hypothesis. To the best of my recollection, this lack of knowledge falls under "Agnosticism". While I/we are Agnostic by default concerning the existence of "God", again, at the same time, I simply do not believe that the existence of such a "being" is likely, hence, why I don't have a belief in God/gods(Atheism).

Mike: If atheism is simply a "belief" that there is no god then I don't see how this is qualitatively different fron agnosticism.

I hopefully just illustrated how Atheism and Agnosticism; "belief and knowledge", are quite different from one another. In conclusion: There are Agnostic believers; there are Agnostic non-believers.

If you, or any of the regulars, feel I'm off base here, feel free to speak right up, because I most definitely don't won't to sit here and defend my errors in perpetuity, if you get my drift.

Best regards, boom'.

>>Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

So, you are basically saying that a person cannot have faith unless that person can somehow just *accept* that the bible is the 'word of god'? That makes zero sense.. ...could you please go ahead and instruct me how to 'just believe' something without any real reason to?


Anyway, you have not offered any support to your claim that the bible is the word of any god whatsoever. It only appears that you are attempting to use your emotional experiences as some kind of 'evidence' to hopefully make me see things your way. I'm sorry - your experience is just that: Your Experience. And, unfortunately, a personal experience like this is not evidence in support of anything, especially when considering the validity of integral parts of a religion (like the bible). Experiences like yours - differing little from the experiences of countless of thousands of others - have all been used to justify belief systems all throughout the ages, just like you are doing. So, what exactly is so special about yours? Yes, I understand that it may be 'proof' to you, but realistically it would hardly be worth consideration by others whom you may be trying to allign to your way of thinking. Again, I am asking for some indisputable proof that your holy handbook has been written/inspired by a god- any god for that matter.

>>If a person does not hear the word of God they have no ability to have faith. That's why I quote the Bible.

That's an absurd statement. I'd like you to post that statement on a Muslim blog and then come back here and post a link to it, okay? -Wes.

Child wrote:
"Dano,
Because Jesus was there helping to create everything and is God and is sinless he is more important. Could you live a perfect life before God and be sacrificed to pay for the sins of the world? I couldn't."

Dan helps another Christian youth learn to think:

You could if you were God.

It would be no big thing, to sacrifice yourself to yourself, if you were God, and knew it was all just a big charade!

Dan, Agnostic

HC said: If a person does not hear the word of God they have no ability to have faith. That's why I quote the Bible.

Wow, pity those billions of people who are going to roast in hell just because they never came into contact with a certain book, or who were born before it was written.

What a shame.

fjell

HC,

You can find my testimony by going to the testamonials page and clicking on the testamonials archive button, it's in the 6-07 list.

Now if you do read it be sure that it's just a simple condensed version of all that I went through. It doesn't tell everything about how much faith I had grown into and how that effected my "walk". It doesn't go into all the prayers I prayed in that year long struggle.(there were many and all were biblically relevant) But you can rest assured that I did all I could to "seek the blessings of god and his wisdom". I risked my very mind. I got nothing back.

You can tell me that you don't believe me or my story, but then that would be calling me a liar. The demon called doubt would be indwelling in you as well as the demon called unbelief. :)

You could try to argue that god really did answer my prayers but that would be a monumental mistake on your part. Because then you'd have to explain why god would push me away from him to give me what I needed.(and what I needed was to be closer to him, right)

So what this all boils down to is you not believing my experiences because they don't back up your beliefs. If you do believe me and still think you have found the one universal truth then you contradict yourself. The best you can do to hold your belief to be true is claim that I wasn't predestined(sp?) for "glory".(which causes more problems for you)

So instead of going through the hassel, how about showing us some evidence that you have, indeed, found the one universal truth. It would, obviously, have to be good credible evidence.

Thanks-SN

Dear Stronger Now,
Thank you for the priveledge of allowing me to read your testimony. I am not an insensitive person, nor am I naive about the pain that this world has to offer. It is very easy to come across as both of those things. You probably don't really care about my opinion as you exhausted every resource you knew of before giving up.

However I am motivated to share..

I gave up on God once. I have a past with sexual abuse. What happened to you was not God's will for you. I believe there is a certain degree of abuse you recieved as far as instruction on how sin is handled.

I do not know everything. I am not a pastor. I am still a sinner standing in God's grace. I do read my Bible and I have had what I feel is good teaching. I'm not talking about cherry picked Bible verses taken out of context. I'm talking about teaching that appears balanced and consistant through out the Bible. At least it does to me...

Your brother sinned against you. Yes, God wants us to forgive but he is also a God of Justice. Somebody may have sinned against your brother in the same way. Many times when a person is sinned against it creates a doorpoint of trauma.

When I was raped the first time at 17, I forgot about it. It was traumatic. I became very "active". I jumped into intimate relationships without any emotional intimacy and with a lot of really scary people. Something in me was searching.

When I was raped a spirit of victimization attached itself to me. It was looking for a victimizer spirit to defile me and the person that was in agreement with victimizing. Three years later it happened again.

I remembered it all at once. I had two rapes and an abortion to deal with at the same time. The second rape had resulted in a pregnancy. I wanted to kill myself believe me.

That following year I meet my birth mother. I was adopted at 4 days old. She was a christian and prayed and talked to me about God a lot. I hated it, but I wanted to know her so I listened.

God pursued and pursued. Things in the Bible that I had misunderstood and had taken offense at were revealed and set right. I discovered that I had been blinded in a lot of areas.

You didn't have to cover your brothers sin against you. That was not what God required. I made the same choice. I was raised in the church. I thought that that was what was required of me too.

The man who raped me the second time was later convicted of running a prostitution ring of underaged girls. If I had held him accountable I may have prevented that.

God always forgave people even in the old testiment upon repentance. Yes, we are required to forgive unrepentant sinners. However, it is also our responsibility to hold unrepentant sinners accountable.

Sometimes we cover sin and sometimes we don't. Sexual abuse of a child is not the kind of thing that should ever have been ignored. I don't know if adults knew. I was guessing no. There were molestations that happened to me from cousins that were also never adressed. I never told. If you told and it was covered that sounds wrong.

The thing that really sucks is that with sexual abuse spirits of accusation, shame, victimization and self-hatred usually appear.

I have to say I still strongly feel and would assert that scripture validates that God is the answer. Not the problem. It was in the name of Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit that I was healed of the pain caused by all of my traumas.

I didn't even begin to tell you the extent of my past. I'm sure I don't know yours.

God heard your prayers. Your pastor in his lack of knowledge failed you. I'm truely sorry.

According to the Bible we live in a cursed and fallen world. God doesn't want anyone to perish. God wants the best for all of us. Satan is the god of this world and people choose to sin or to be set free.

James 1:17 Every good and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Now about this trying to please God stuff... When you are in Christ and God's checking up on you to see how you are doing spiritually (whether you are in sin or not)Father God just looks to his right where Jesus sits. He sees that you wear his righteousness.

The gift of salvation is free of works there is nothing needed but faith to earn it. Sin will have to be judged one day. Sin is a bodiless entity that is behind self hatred shame unforgiveness fear and the like.

God does not want people to choose to die in sin. Sin is punished for eternity because it was created to be an eternal creature. It chose to turn away from God. There will come a day when God declares the time is up for sin to affect humanity. That day has not come.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be glorified together.

This is just to show we are as christians judged by Christs righteousness. Persecution for being a christian is the suffering.

This is not refering to things like being molested. I don't want you to think that I'm saying there is a great glory in that. God was grieved by what happened to you.

1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgement; because He is so are we in this world.

I was adressing a couple of different things posted. Sorry it's so long.

Stronger now, would you consider that maybe the reason you did not kill yourself was the grace of God? God wanted you to live so he helped you to lay aside your pain and live showing love to your sister? That's my stance.

I'm really glad you moved away from you're brother. There is a difference between trust and forgiveness. I have prayed for the salvation of my abusers often.

Your brother needs freedom. He was hurt when he hurt you. He may even have had moments of wanting to kill himself. What he did was part of the enemies plan to destroy him just as much as it was part of the enemies plan to destroy you.

You have to seperate him from the sin that he came into agreement with. It's the only way I could ever forgive anyone.

God loves him too. He was wrong and he did sin. In my opinion the police should have been involved when you were a child. No condemnation there, the shame that belongs to the victomizer attacks the victom.

I know of a couple of really great ministries that help peple heal from these types of issues. If you want the names I can pass them on.

I was taught that spiritual things affect our bodies. Doctors agree. They blame stress and anxiety for a variety of ailments. Anyhow, with sexual abuse they've done studies on body chemistry.

Many times a person who has been abused will abuse. That's because when the person is abused the body throws out the same amount of dopamine and seratonin to cope as it would in responce to snorting a line of cocaine.

The only way the body knows to get the same chemical dump is to abuse. Our spirits body and minds are as inseperable as our Triune God. We reflect the beuaty of His image. However, we have to deal with what sin screwed up.

If you feel you are bombarded with weird thoughts that make you feel like a monster don't worry. It's just the devil. God is bigger. He can help you get free. There is a scripture in Hosea that says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

I am sorry for every christian who didn't know their Bible well enough to help you. I can't say I know everything, I can say God loves you and heard you. He was the one who helped you reason your way out of ending your life.

My husband would have answered your blog much quicker. He would have said. God didn't cause that to happen. The devil did!

Anonymous: "Sin is punished for eternity because it was created to be an eternal creature."

Sin, a "creature"? Ooookay. That's even stranger than the usual apologia we get around here.

"Your brother needs freedom. He was hurt when he hurt you. He may even have had moments of wanting to kill himself. What he did was part of the enemies plan to destroy him just as much as it was part of the enemies plan to destroy you."

And this is extraordinarily bad advice, IMO. Blaming someone's wrongdoing on an invisible enemy is not conducive to healing.

"Yes, we are required to forgive unrepentant sinners."

Even worse advice. Forgiveness happens only at an appropriate time for each individual. For some people, that time is... Never. Putting a religious-obligation spin on it just makes it into another source of stress.

"I was taught that spiritual things affect our bodies. Doctors agree. They blame stress and anxiety for a variety of ailments."

Um... "Spiritual things" does not equate to "stress and anxiety" (except, perhaps, via such mechanisms as the placebo effect).

"The only way the body knows to get the same chemical dump is to abuse."

False. Absolutely false. Not all victims of abuse go on to become abusers.