No, Brian, nothing you say will ever change my mind. I have "evolved" from religious beliefs. You are taking your arguments out of a book we don't believe has any truth and you're wasting your time. We've been there. We have come to learn the real truth meanwhile.
As much as you wish you could convince us to share your belief again, as much do we feel sorry for you for believing the fairy tales of the Bible and wish you could just once for a short moment look at your belief and your god from a rational standpoint.
I understand your belief and how you feel that we are lost and will go to hell. I feel the same way about you, except that you're not going to any hell or heaven, and neither does anyone else.
I once thought it would be a "sin" to do research about religion and read texts and books that were not religious, and yes, they separated me from "god" and the religious belief. Thank god?
Get some reason, please. Do yourself a favor.
I regret all the time I wasted in churches and money I gave and feel so stupid and ridiculous for some of the things I have told others, especially children, and for the whole circus I was once part of.
But you know what? After some withdrawal from religon and breaking free from the community, I can breathe again. I didn't even lose any real friends.


Sean

I will believe, the moment that some evidence of the divine can be given. Scientist are continually challenged and questioned about years of research with which evidence and experiments are required, however theologists take examples of proof from a book which not only often contradicts itself, but has also been shown that no one has completely been able to translate the text from it's original language verbatim. How is it possible to believe such stories without evidence with the exception of a book that at best is very questionable on the basis of historical elements and history of the earth? And what is really amazing is how much of Christ's story resembles that of many a Greek God. Hum, should we all believe in dragons, unicorns and Zeus?
In the end as to your last question of "what if", I do not believe in heaven any more than hell, so I do not see how I would ever be able to enter either or that it should matter to me. I will live for the work I can do today, as I do not live for an infinite.

Oh Please!! Your argument is as old as the hills and is easily refuted. It's called "Pascal's Wager." The problem with this argument is that it assumes there are only two choices, believe in Jesus and be saved if the Christians are "right," or not believe and risk going to hell. What if we're both wrong and we'll be punished forever for not believing in Ahura-Mazda, or for that matter, the Flying Spaghetti Monster. There's just as much evidence for any of these gods, including your Jehovah, who is just one of thousands.

You also make a fallacious argument from authority when you tell us that what the Bible says on the issue is clear. Ignoring the question of how clear the Bible is for a moment (lots of contradictions -- not so clear), why should we accept the Bible's authority? Why don't you accept the authority of other holy books? There's the Q'uran, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, and on and on. You really should accept the authority of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or risk losing out on Pastafarian heaven. No beer volcano or stripper factory for you!

Pascal's Wager only works for kids and people with little education, and your use of the word “friend” is painfully disingenuous.

If you were our “friend” you would respect us and not try to recruit us to your cult.

I’m sorry… Yours isn’t a cult, is it?

You follow a religion, the guy down the street from you belongs to a cult and your ancestors believed a myth… Isn’t that how it works?

Many religions utilize Pascal‘s Wager.

If THEY are right - that means YOU are wrong and you’re going to wherever they say wrong people go.

Oh, but you KNOW you’re right don’t you? Those other “cults” are misguided, confused, stupid or whatever aren’t they?

It’s not just limited to people that follow other Gods, there are other Christians that will tell you that YOU are going to Hell because you don’t go to the right Christian church, you don’t pray the right way, you eat the wrong foods, you don’t wear the right clothes, you don’t pay enough money, you don’t have sex correctly (too much, not enough, with the wrong person or for the wrong reasons, the wrong positions etc).

You’re apparently going to Hell too “friend”, just ask the guy from the church down the street…

Brian,

I appreciate your heartfelt attempt to reach out to us ex-christians. I can empathize with your position because I used to feel the same way once. At least your post appeared to be a genuine plea and not condescending like what we usually read from christians who post here.

Nevertheless, I have a concern about something in your post. You said that we were at risk for "losing" our eternal soul if we continue to deny your jesus. To my knowledge, according to the bible, those who go to hell will be conscious of eternal suffering (i.e., burning, weeping, gnashing of teeth, etc.). Does that awareness of suffering not require a soul? Or at least a consciousness? If the unsaved lose their souls, then what exactly is left of our person that will suffer in hell?

I think you meant to say that we are going to burn for eternity, rather than "lose" anything. According to the bible, whether you make it to heaven or hell, you will experience either place forever. So either you will have a good experience of eternity or a bad one. Am I getting that right? So it is up to me to decide if I want a room in god's mansion and heavenly treasures (whatever they may be) or if I want to "burn" and cry and "gnash my teeth" (assuming that we will be equipped with nerve ending and teeth in the afterlife).

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Just one of the many reasons why I no longer believe.

Michelle

Please forgive this self-plug; however, I appear to have already written part of an answer to Brian's letter in a post to my blog, entitled “The Urgency of Faith”, which addresses “Pascal's Wager”-type arguments, and tries to make the case that the wager is not nearly so one-sided as some would have us believe, without actually trying to influence the reader's judgment as to which side of the wager on which to bet his life.

For any who might be interested, I also have a post about my first encounter, as a Christian, with a biblical contradiction I could not comfortably wriggle my way out of.

Hi Brian!

I appreciate your concern for us by asking us this question, and I applaud you for not being outright hostile as some other people have been.

However, if we look at the bible, Jesus does answer the question of salvation pretty easily:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and, love your neighbor as yourself."

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied, "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28)

In terms of logic and what Jesus says, this verse states:

Loving others and God IS THE WAY TO eternal life.

Simple as that! Note that Jesus does not say to follow him, or to worship him, or anything like that. He says in clear, easy to understand words that if you want eternal life, love others and love God.

It's rather unfortuante that most churches won't adopt this policy in place of scare tactics.

Ah, Brian...so sincere and compassionate...

What is the evidence that a "soul" exists? What exactly is a "soul"? Have you ever seen one?

What is your evidence that a god even exists? Have you ever seen one?

You say, "Lastly, nothing I say will really change your mind about God, the Bible, and his Son, my Lord and Savior, will it?"
That depends on you, Brian...you are the one making the impassioned plea. I'm all ears. Truly. How do you answer the above questions?

Dear Brian, what do you do when nothing about the Christian story makes sense? What do you do when you have a mind that insists on honest questions and answers? That will not let you alone when the story does not add up? How do you force yourself to believe something you do not believe? How many heartfelt, tearful, terrified prayers does it take, asking god to please please please make you believe something you do not and cannot (in good conscience) believe? What do you do when god does not answer? Wouldn't a just and loving god respond with a loving, eye-opening answer, instead of hiding the ball and tormenting people? What do you do when you are told to believe in a god who orders kidnap and rape(Judges 21:8-23)? Do you recommend that people lie to themselves in an attempt to believe something they do not? If one has to lie to themself to believe, can salvation be genuine? Does god desire a people who have to lie to themselves to get into heaven? What do you do when you cannot lie to yourself?

Lynn I really like what you are saying. Great Post. Last night we spent New Years Eve with some old friends we haven't seen in a while. I mentioned that I no longer believed in God, and I was immediately given the old Pascal's Wager. "Why not just believe because you have nothing to loose?"

You can't believe when you don't believe. People don't seem to realize that simple concept.

Brian your belief, this is based solely on the presumption that the Bible is true, it is also based upon the presumption that a person has a soul, it is also based upon the presumption that jesus existed.

What if the Koran is true? Have you fully studied the pages of the Koran objectively, to the point that you can prove it to be wrong? Somehow I would guess no, you have not!

Brian, who told you the Bible was true? Your mother, father, uncle aunt, grandmother, grandfather, preacher, etc?

Brian, are you stupid enough to believe there exists a God whom cannot save souls on his own, but had to invent a demi-god-Jesus, to help this God save souls?

Do you really believe there exists a God that cannot write his own book, but has to let humans write it and translate it for him because he cannot figure out what it says?

Do you really believe there exists a God as stupid and ignorant as you?

Hi xrayman, thanks! Re: Pascal's wager, someone can say "Why don't you just believe that Pluto is made of licorice, you have nothing to lose." Right. Except that I cannot force myself to believe in the licorice theory of planetary formation. How do you make yourself believe something if you don't believe it? And if the answer is, we don't make ourselves believe, it's god who reveals all, then why, when one is praying for things to make sense so one can believe, doesn't god cut loose and give up some info? Unless god plays favorites and holds out (in his infinite mercy and wisdom) on well-intentioned folks who really want to know. That does not sound like divine behavior, it sounds like the human behavior of a person who just wants to jerk people around.

Brian,

I used to feel the same passion as you once - eight years as an adult. I agree with Michelle and others here - where is this 'soul'? Bodies decay and we have been dissected and no one has seen a 'soul'. I believe Thomas Paine wrote something about this concept over 100 years ago.

Also, the concept of Heaven is very wishful. I do not fear not going to Heaven nor going to Hell. If I had to spend eternity with the selfish, jealous, sick God of the Bible in Heaven, it would be Hell.

Also, Christians like to say it is not the reward that makes them believe - nor the fear of Hell. Yet, I pose this question. If God said, "Obey my commands always; while you are alive, please me always - live my life - not yours, etc. However, you will live your second life in misery and hell and all the people here on earth who do not worship me will live in Heaven." Brian, would you truly say you 'love' God? What if his reasons made no sense - like most of his current teachings, but if you love him, if you truly love him as you say and not for the reward - would you do it?

Brian, most all the religions of this world - including Buddhism, teach to submit yourself in this life - accept your positions, etc., so that you will have a reward in the next life. Some have Heaven with virgins, some Heaven with those who have died, some will be reincarnated into a better class, etc., but all do so because those who allowed the religious documents to be circulated were afraid of the common person rising above their circumstances - becoming educated - becoming more powerful than them. It's just so, well, immature. We know that with education - not superstition - we can have a better life. We have better health because people went outside their religions - and learned how to treat illness instead of accepting everything as God's will.

Also, one more thing about Heaven. So many people who believe talk about living in eternity with their spouse or loved one, etc. What if someone remarried and both died? Who would they be with? What if the deceased always wanted to be with the wife - but he was a wife-beater and the wife hated him? He repents on his deathbed and goes to Heaven - she forgives, but remarries a real gem of a husband. Both are Christians - all are - what could Heaven do for them? I mean, there is so much of this stuff.

Don't worry about us non-believers - we know this is the only life for us. We do not waste our precious life living superstitiously. We are helping to find cures for diseases, helping people live with cancer - all the wonderful things our God put on earth with us, etc. If believing in God makes your life better and you can't live without that crutch - if life without a big Santa in the sky is not worth living - then that is what you need. We simply matured out of those teachings. They were nice, like Santa, while we believed, but we simply learned the truth and could no longer live the pretense any longer.

This is funny but sad. When we were deep believers and my daughter was learning there was no Santa, etc. she cried this to me:

"What? There's no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy? Next you're going to tell me there's no God!" Of course I was quick to tell her, although those other entities are made up - God certainly is not! ... Even a child can piece it together if given the freedom to.

She is still pretty angry at me for confusing her. Think about it. Allow your intellect to examine the history of life compared to the writings in your Bible. Let 2007 be the year you really saw the light.

First thing I thought seems to be what quite a few others thought: Pascal's wager.

Steve

Brian said:

3. Lastly, nothing I say will really change your mind about God, the Bible, and his Son, my Lord and Savior, will it?

Give it a picosecond's thought, Bri. What is the name of this website?

Every single person here has changed his/her mind about the 2 above-named nonentities. Maybe you were looking in the mirror when you asked that question?

.

lol, ain't it wonderful the way religion invents a problem (sin) with one hand and then offers people the cure (faith, belief, money, time) with the other and yet there still exist people who don't notice the parralells between a priest and a new york matchstick man...roflmao

Brian, if what the Bible says is absolute truth then, the Earth is flat, and has four corners and the Earth is the center of the universe, and the Heart is the center of all thought and emotions, and talking snakes, bushes, donkeys, unicorns and dragons exist.

Why did it take Jesus 3 days to resurrect, if he was God himself in disguise?

Keep in mind, that this same God created the whole universe in just six days?

Why did Jesus say "My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? If he was indeed God, himself?

Because Jesus was told that he was from God!

Jesus was the biggest naive ignorant fool to have ever walked the face of the Earth, including his followers.

Jesus believed he was from a God, only because he was told that he was.

The Bible works perfectly, until you question it.

Why would a God who has the ability to create the whole universe, send anyone to Hell based solely upon what people believe in their heads?

Why does a belief someone holds in their head, determine the mood or the amount of love given by this God?

Why would a belief that people have in their minds, devide the way a God thinks?

Many people believe in Buddha, Santa, Elves, Trolls, Ghosts, Allah, etc, etc. why would a loving God send anyone to (Hell) just because they do not believe in Jesus?

I know I would not send people to Hell, based upon what they have been told to believe?

Does this make me better than your God? Yes it does!

Brian, if you're in agreement with your make believe Bible God and you go along with sending people to Hell, based on what people believe, then this makes you no better than your imaginary evil God.

Brian, do you agree with sending people to Hell? If you do, then you are a very evil hatefilled(not-loving) person!

Brian, why is it that millions of people have been praying fervently for over 4 years for the war in Iraq to end, but no Christians has enough sense to see that prayer never works and it never will?

Brian, I know you will brush all these questions off as, "It is simply God's Holy will", we used to say the same stupid garbage, you're no different than us Brian, you've been told you're special, because you believe in Jesus....lol

Brian you're no different than anyone else on this planet, but you've been told that you are, because you believe in Jesus...grow up Brian and get a life, you will never see Jesus.

It's like being given a barrel of Catfish and a 12-bore

Happy New Year to all

Grandpa Harley

xxx

Dear Brian, all Christians, and everyone that has a soul. Follow my beliefs of fantasy circular logic or else face an eternity of excruitiating torment and torture far worse than the Hell in the Bible. I am true for I SAY I AM TRUTH!! Is it worth it praying to Jusus as your personal savior to avoid the Bible's version of Hell or IS IT MORE IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW ME TO AVOID A HELL FAR WORSE THAN THE ONE IN THE BIBLE? What if Christianity is wrong and Ex-Christianity, my beliefs is infalibly 100% correct? You could end up in my version of Hell. Think about it. Reject Christianity and join me, join us, join the Ex-Christians or suffer for all eternity! The Choice Is Yours! Choose Wisely! !!IT'S YOUR SOUL!!

Well, what if it was really all true and god is just as the bible says? Then, I would willingly dive head-first into the "lake of fire" because that god is a heartless monster and I would rather suffer for all eternity than pay homage to such a horrible thing for a second.

The Bible is very clear.

This, of course, would explain why there are approximately 40,000 denominations of Christianity worldwide.

Oh, that's right. Sorry, I forgot. You've got the True Christian Beliefs (Newly Adjusted Millenial Dates and Teh Rapture) 2.0. Or has the 3.0 come out now?

So, Brian, the reason you will not change our minds is this: we (excepting the trolls) have used experience, critical thinking and logic to reach a point of rejecting the Bible and it's adherents.
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of you.

Brain seems not to be terribly interested in following up on his post. Maybe he's like that Mark guy who posted an almost identical message a few months ago (Gambling with eternity or something like that) and did not expect to have to defend it to a whole batch of atheists.

What their kind don't get is that some of our lives simply don't revolve around jesus. Whether or not Jesus and his dad exist is simply not of paramount importance to us. Life is too short and too precious. We can't afford to live it as though it was a wager in some cosmic battle.That would make life negligible. Given what we know about the universe, life is so rare that we can hardly afford to think of it in such negligile terms.

My desk is inside the window and I have such a beautiful view of sky and trees and birds and squirrels--of LIFE. It feels really good to think of myself as part of this life. This is heaven enough for me. On the off-chance that a warm and loving god exists, I am sure I will be admitted to heaven--providing I survive death and heaven exists.

Your post,and many like yours are what continues to encourage us to reject the "Gasp-pol".

I/we would never follow,believe,or submit to a tyrant who is sending in
your words,.."billions to a fiery hell"
Once again thank-you for reminding us of the "Amazing Disgrace"and lunacy of your belief in the savior of this world!

Anonymous wrote:

ol, ain't it wonderful the way religion invents a problem (sin) with one hand and then offers people the cure (faith, belief, money, time) with the other and yet there still exist people who don't notice the parralells between a priest and a new york matchstick man...roflmao


Funny, this is the first post I've seen that addresses the fact that preachers are running a protection racket, something I've pointed out for decades.

"Nice soul ya got there... Be a shame if somethin' happened to it..."

Put yourself in Gods place. You decide to make some critters to keep you company. You love praise and like having those critters worshiping you.

Now wouldn't a Creator who is capable of creating billions of galaxies, planets, etc., have enough intelligence to create those critters with an instinct SO POWERFUL, to worship their creator, that there wouldn't be any other alternative?

If God needs our constant praise, wouldn't he have made us to be able to know who he is from our birth? There wouldn't be any ambiguity about it. We would just fall down on our knees and start telling him how wonderful he is as soon as we learned to speak!

Lets say he made a mistake and didn't make us with big enough God glands. The least he could do is preempt all of the television programs in prime time, show up sitting on his throne, with the angels all around, and identify himself once and for all.

Give God a break! He ain't stupid. If he isn't getting enough loving from us, he certainly has the power to do something about it. He wouldn't have to copy an old pagan blood sacrifice story, that can be found in many ancient religions that preceded the Jewish one.

Just don't forget! God can do anything he wants, anytime he wants, he knows everything, is everywhere, and he loves all his children. If you are not worshiping him enough, he is certainly smart enough to do something about it.
Dano (Trusting in God, Allah, and whoever else is responsible for creating this mess)

As a Buddhist/Taoist student I willingly take your arrogant challenge, what if youre wrong and you land in the Buddhist hell? What would you do then if God favored Paganism and Buddhism over christianity? I already know that Buddhism predates christianity, You can learn a lot from those older and wiser than yourself, theres nothing worse than an egomanic for Jesus. They kill, rape and lie and wonder why they are falling in disfavor more and more. I can tell you from experience and christian history it is you that should fear the afterlife and not I.

Brian,
If you are right then I guess "we all" are in deep shit. You will spend your days with God, Jeffrey Dahmer and every other killer who asked to be forgiven.It sounds like heaven!
On the other hand will spend our days apart from God (like we do now) with people like Albert Einstein. Its going to be rough but we will be ok.

Brian, go back and tell Pastor that we've already heard what he told you to "witness" to us with.
It's called Pascal's Wager, and it's a SUCKER BET.

Let's face it Brian, if you have to scare people into believing in your religion, it makes you and your religion look bad. Do you have anything to offer besides fear?

Just Listen to this Brian guy. This is pure manipulation on his part. I call it christ manipulation 101. I am so glad I'm no longer preaching and living this crap. What an awful way to live life feeling the need to canstantly manipulate others into your way of thinking! This shit is for the birds dude!

"Why did it take Jesus 3 days to resurrect, if he was God himself in disguise?"

Because Easter Friday would sound silly.

Brian
I can't believe you used that arguement. That has been explained eons ago not to your credit. Anyway Jesus coming back to life after three days is not such a big deal. The BIG deal was ALL the saints in their graves coming back to life and appearing to many. Now that was a miracle! Now seriously Brian Atheists are not Atheists to be spiteful they are Atheists because they have done the research and have concluded that the claims of Christianity are sorely lacking and if you did the research you would find this out also. WHere I come from believing without evidence is called gullible. I don't think the creator of the universe(if there is one) rewards such stances.

That whole what if argument is weak.
Do you not see how that can apply to every single fucking religion? None of which have the right evidence to prove their validity?