This is just a fundie drive-bye. Why I am even responding is beyond me. Maybe I just enjoy talking to myself...sorta like the years I spent praying to a non-existent diety.

Anyway, I would like to know how in the hell do you know that hell is hot? Have you ever been there before? Or are you simply regurgitating what your dumbass pastor and the BuyBull have to say?

You fundies are nothing but drones; and if I had the choice of hell and an eternity in heaven with someone like you I'd choose hell.

So let me go and buy some two million sunblock and a glass of ice tea.

"once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up."
Then I guess its not real because I was a
"saved" "born again" christian sheep. And I not only gave it up, I ran as far away from it as possible

"you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes."
No, but I can and did escape from it,

The rest of your post is just more jibberish. Just like the crap I used to spew for jesus when my pastor told me to,

Here is some of what Andrew F "thinks":

Andrew: "This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys... Christians rights are being revoked..."

Do you no longer have the right to attend the church of your choice, Andrew? Can you not openly express your opinions, even on forums such as this? I think you are confusing resistance to the intrusion of religion into government with curtailment of your fundamental religious liberties. I happen to think that keeping government and religion totally separate was a splendid idea. Do you not think so?

By the way, can you point me to one scientific source that claims we "came from monkeys"? I strongly suspect that you are merely echoing creationist distortions and have not made any attempt to study the theory of evolution for yourself. Is that accurate?

Andrew: "WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity."

If you wish to convince anybody to adopt your beliefs, a very good place to start would be to produce some evidence supporting them. Without it, you have no more credibility than an Islamic fundamentalist, for example--you're simply brandishing a slightly different dogma. I just wrote a reply to Christina in this thread that I think applies equally to you. Have you any comment?

Andrew: "I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times,..."

Which sites are trying to "ban" god, Andrew? Are you expressing your displeasure that some of us hold opinions different from your own? If you had your way, would you silence us by force rather than by persuasion? If not, then I look forward to hearing some cogent reasoning from you rather than threats.

Andrew: "One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real..."

That is nothing more than wishful thinking (followed by some rather ugly threats). Have you anything to back it up? If not, we will simply dismiss it as yet another unfounded religious claim. Okay?

This world is comin to an end fast

You know the world is coming to an end when god is coming to an end! They're getting nervous! If god does show up, he's getting a big wet luger in the face from yours truely.

This world is comin to an end fast

You know the world is coming to an end when god is coming to an end! They're getting nervous! If god does show up, he's getting a big wet luger in the face from yours truely.

I don't expect to see an answer from Andrew, but if he should be lurking to see what kinds of responses he got...

This is such a crock of drivel that it's hardly worth a look. The world is not coming to an end, at least in the biblical sense, and it will not any time soon. You obviously are very ill-informed as to your biology too...evolution does not say, and never has, that man evolved from monkeys.

Just where are christians' rights being revoked? If you think that the principle of separation of church and state is revoking your rights, you should think again. You never had a right to impose christian dogma on secular American life to start with.

Every nation eventually falls anyway, regardless of its gods. Nations have life spans, just as people do. They don't really "fall", they reorganize.

Oh, nuts...I could go on, but it's a waste of time.

This world is comin to an end fast

You know the world is coming to an end when god is coming to an end! They're getting nervous! If god does show up, he's getting a big wet luger in the face from yours truely.

Why is it the more fervent and blind the belief, the less these people seem to value spelling, grammer, and clarity in written communication?

How am I supposed to respect an idea, even one I disagree with, if the person presenting the idea doesn't care about their own words enough to present them clearly?

Andrew,
When the world comes to an end can I have your possessions? Like the Christian spell check program on your computer or your Kent Hovind biology books. I am starting to think we came from monkeys the more I see Christian responses. Remember you have to open your hand to get it out of the jar!
I'm waiting,
Farris

A play-by-play breakdown of Andrew F:

"Heres what i think,

once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up"

If it's real, Andrew? Didn't you just deny the holy spirit by inserting an "if?" What exactly do you mean by "if its real"

And we certainly can just "give it up," if indeed "its real." Try reading your bible instead of listening to a poorly educated preacher. Paul clearly laid out how an "ex christian" is indeed possible.

"you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes."

Kinda like a bully playing dice, huh? When he loses he just beats the tar outta the other guy and takes back his winnings?

"This world is comin to an end fast, getting God out of schools, and everywhere else, teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle, and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys..."

Are you gay, Andrew F? You kinda sound like Ted Haggard a little bit.

Learn some biology. Humans did not evolve from monkeys, so we did not come from monkeys, only ill informed people like you say such things, but rather apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor. Kinda like breeds of dogs, which humankind has see evolution working in full with our selective breeding practices.

"Christians rights are being revoked. People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood. Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it."

Kinda like christianity, huh, bub? It too was once a "strange religieon made 'popular' by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood" except "people in hollywood" would be the persecuted middle easterners from which the christian cult evolved.

Evil, or eveil, as you call it, as well as sin, has been going on since the dawn of what we call mankind. This time is no different. You think there weren't Ted Haggards a hundred years ago? Think again.

"Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen. Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity."

Spoken like a true reader of Tim Lahaye. I'll tell you, Andrew, you take up your bible and cross to me, I'll fight back. And I'll fight back hard. Have you yourself never wondered why you're worshiping a middle eastern tribal god like the Allah you probably make fun of pretty regularly?

"I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen."

You're also a sign of the times, Andrew. Cept you're nothing special... nothing unique or new. Just another fundamentalist parrot who can't spell, string sentences together properly, or use reason or logic. Idiots like you have laid their claims much more persuasively than you did, and even some of them managed to not look the fool. And who is banning "god" on this site? This "god" you speak of is mentioned a great deal here. This is an ex-christian site after all.

"The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot."

Good. Then you'll get your reward, right? Just as those tenth century trumpets blow... why not speakers or MP3 players? And you too will no doubt see people you cared about cast into hell, cause sorry kid, the world just ain't black and white.

And you say this is the good part?

I can't say if you're a brainwashed kid or some 40 year old moron, but if you're the latter, you're a sociopath. And fuck you. I use your goddamn bible as a target for my .25 and I roll tobacco cigarettes in its onionskin paper.

"Heres (sic) what i think,

And then you proceed to show us you dont and, apparently, never have. It's also known as "blind faith" and "willful ignorance".

Well, here's what I think -

Having been “blessed” with a rational mind, I am glad to say I was never a fundy. But, I did try to make myself believe what the christians say they do. (Because, let’s face it, for all their blathering on and on about being persecuted, the christians actually get undue respect and perks here in good old GodSaveAmerica.)

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I even prayed for the “gift” of “faith.” Of course, no matter how much time I spent talking to myself or obsessing over the bible in my own mind, I could not force myself to believe in it entirely (or even very much at all). Belief is NOT a choice.

That’s when I decided to investigate religious matters more deeply – and -- unlike the fundies who go through life wearing blinders -- from a variety of viewpoints. Through college courses and intensive reading, I learned about the history of the bible, including the geopolitical situations that influenced its creation over hundreds of years, and, of course, about the inconsistencies and errors of which the bible is full.

Now, I’m not saying I’m a scholar. Rather, it was the work of real scholars that convinced me once and for all that the odious biblegod is imaginary (damn good thing!) and that christianity is bunk.

Yet, here comes another barely literate fundy spouting the same tired phrases that we’ve all heard countless times, without any evidence of anything he proclaims, expecting us to believe him just because he and his bible say so. If the scholars convinced me that giving up any pretense of christianity was the most logical thing to do, it’s not bloody likely that a poorly written screed will change my mind. And, if Andrew thinks so, I can guess what the “F” in his name stands for.

lol, love it when they say the world is comin' to an end when in reality thngs have never been so good for the human race. Y'wana see just how fucked up we can get? Pick up a history book and turn to the 800 years when christianity ruled europe, enforcine their bullshit beliefs on all and sundry, it was called the "dark ages" for a reason, asshat.

and as for the "came from monkeys" crap...apes, actually, and how is that more far fetched than us all evolving from dust and magic like this fucktard apparently belives?

Well, folks, take heart, because nothing of the sort of thing Andrew fantasizes about will happen, of course.

He is going to die old and stupid (just as he is young and stupid now) and then he will be consigned to oblivion (where his brain has preceded him years ago).

If only his kind had the decency to leave us, the people whose brains ARE working, alone.

I so hope that he is right about Christianity declining, though.

"The Good News: The world is coming to an end.
The Bad News: That´s it. No God, no judgment day and no Heaven. Just the end of the world."
"Well, fuck."

What's the "F" stand for Andrew F? Fucktard?

"[i]once youre a saved born again christian, if its real, you cant just give it up.[/i]"
So what are you saying, God takes away your free will??? I mean that’s the only way one can be saved without ever going astray. I mean sure all the passages that describe once saved always save describes God's promise on his part but it says nothing of our part. Can we not leave if we truly have freewill??? If we can't then God is a liar for claiming to admonish anti-freewill puppetry...

"[i]you cant go back on it or deny it because God will make sure he gets you back no matter what that takes.[/i]"
Impossible to refuse, hence no freewill, ergo God lies...



"[i]This world is comin to an end fast,[/i]"
The world isn't anywhere near ending yet, humanity isn't assured that, but the world is...


"[i]getting God out of schools[/i]"
Oh yes the special rights for christians, "My God needs to be adored everywhere and fed to everyone"...



"[i]and everywhere else,[/i]"
It's called restoring balance, yeah sorry chritians can no longer claim the dominionism they once had but hey everyone else deserves equal play...

"[i]teaching kids that being gay is just an alternative lifestyle[/i]"
First off being gay isn’t a "lifestyle", it's an orientation with the living part up to the individual. And there's nothing wrong with being gay, though your ilk have lied their asses of to make it seem that way, I won't get started on that...


, "[i]and that people werent created by God but that we came from monkeys[/i]"

Not even close and mocking will get you no where...
Evolution is understood empirically and scientifically understood reality, where as a sky daddy coming down and breathing magic into dirt is not...

"[i]Christians rights are being revoked.[/i]"
CHRISTIAN RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY!?!?!?!?
THE AUTHOR OF THIS CRAP IS AN ARROGANT SHIT!!!!
CHRISTIAN RIGHTS DO NOT INCLUDE DOMINIONISM. EVERYTIME A CHRISTIAN'S BELIEFS AREN'T AFFIRMED, UPHELD, AGREED WITH, AND PROPOGATED THEY SCREAM THEIR RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY. WHAT THE F**K ABOUT GAY RIGHTS??? GAYS GET BEAT ON, SPIT ON, OSTRACIZED, DENIED HOUSING AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES IN EMPLOYEMENT, PRIVACY, TO HAVE FAMILIES, AND BE MARRIED. WHEN YOU F**KS GO THROUGH ALL THIS THEN YOU CAN SAY CHRISTIAN RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY, UNTIL THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU WHINEY SPOILED LITTLE F**KS AND STOP THINKING EVERYTHING HAS TO COW TOW TO YOU!!!!!



"[i]People are being told they are all god inside and strange religieons are beng made "popular" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood[/i]."
We are Gods baby, the closest thing you're ever going to get to a God...

People are being told there is a God and they need to ashamed of themselves and admonish all free will and thought in order to avoid his sadistic wrath and this idiotic religion is being made "dominant" by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people of christianity


"[i]Eveil and sin is being glorified by the world just like the bible predicted and the nation is being sucked into it.[/i]"
Ironically christianity doesn't realize how evil it is, it's old testament God's and it's blood lust and dominionism throughout history to now.

"[i]Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen.[/i]"
Funny I can name plenty of nations that adopted christianity and fell: Constantine, Rome, and on and on...


"[i]Its sad to sit back and watch all the sin of the world be glorified. Real true born again children of God need to stick together and speak up- against the wicked sins of this world. WE need to take up our bibles and crosses and show the world that if they do not accept Jesus Christ then they will burn in hell for all of eternity.[/i]"
You're doing no such thing, it's fine that you do whatever stupidity you want in your own damn churches but if you take it our here and try to shove this down our throats you'll end up with a war you'll never be able to handle...

"[i]I think any site that tries to ban God is just a sign of the times, but one day the people who dont believe will also stand before the one true living God, and as the bible says they will bow there knee and confess that he is Lord, then God will look down on non believers and say "depart from me, i know you not" and there begins the eternal seperation. I think that is sad but it will happen.[/i]"
Right and the koran says the same of it's God and the bagita vat, so on and son. Your religion is just a pebble in the bucket and nothing tangible to support it...


"[i]The only good part in all that is that those people in that one final moment before they are condemned to an eternity in hell will see that there was really a God and that they have spent there whole lives fighting against their creator. One day, when the trumpets blow, everyone will see that God is very real, heaven is real, and that hell is not only real but very hot.[/i]"

Wishful thinking of the delusional mind....

Utter fucking garbage. Just like I believed once. That Jesus character you worship is a liar and a fraud. Oh and even though i am not gay i don't like your homophobic insults. People are gay because that is just the way they are wired, not because they are evil.
Where was God when I needed him in my time of crisis? Absolutely nowhere! I can now say i am perfectly happy without this God and Jesus crap. You are a fundie twat, now piss off back to your christian cult.

so are ya'll not even a little bit scared that hell could be real?

Hi Preston!

Are you afraid that the Greek Underworld, otherwise known as Hades, might be real?

If not, why not?

Let me ask you this, preston. Are you scared that you may be going to Islamic Hell? That's where you're going if Allah is real and you hold to the blasphemous Christian beliefs.

My guess is that you're not the slightest bit concerned about that possibility because the idea is so outlandish. Does that answer your question?

preston wrote:
so are ya'll not even a little bit scared that hell could be real?
posted: 12/20/2006 3:44 PM EST  

Dano replies: I was when I was seven, but by the time I reached eight, I had figured out that the concepts of heaven and hell are so patently ridiculous, illogical, irrational, and Homo Sapiens chauvinistic, that I threw them in the trash and never looked back!
Dan (Your friend till you grow up)

well in most cases, depending on the denomination, the muslims believe that you will go to hell for only a period of time. So if i have one atom of faith in allah then i'll end up in heaven in the long run. my God is the same as the god of muhamad, he just believed that the bible is distorted from what god was really trying to say. So basically i'm not afraid at all.

but no, you answered my question with a question. Are you in the slightest bit scared Jim?

and no, webmaster. My relationship with God requires me to be pure and holy. Elysium would be my destination; Since we're talking about the greek now.

Preston,
Great question! Why didn't we think about that...oh wait...EX-Christian.
Sure,dedicate your whole life (and a substantial portion of your earnings) to a belief system based on the ancient and arbitrarily combined writings of...well we don't know who really wrote a lot of it...despite its inherent contradictions, lack of evidence, unrealistic/unnatural occurances, and undocumented characters (yup...that includes Jesus himself, no historians of his time even mention him).

All because some Tantrum-Driven-Invisible-Sky-Daddy is going to torture you for eternity if you don't "believe" in him and love him (for there is no truer love than the love born of fear)...and not because that belief is a recruitment tool for a cult called Christianity. You know, the same ones who worship a god that is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. Which means he could have prevented such a situation, but "his glory" was more important.

And there is NO WAY you could be wrong and some of the other hundreds of religious groups got it right. Aren't you the slightest bit scared about that?
Because, in answer to your question, I am not in the least. That is one of the benefits of being rational and using common sense.

Fundie says: Every nation that turned its back on God through time has fallen.

Let's be more specific. Every nation that has fallen that turned its back on God has fallen. Every nation that has fallen that did NOT turn its back on God has fallen. (Exactly what do we mean by nation here, anyway? Every single last person, according to the Christan Census?) Now, currently, there are many nations that are still existant that have theoretically turned THEIR backs on God. When exactly are they considered "fallen"?

preston wrote:
and no, webmaster. My relationship with God requires me to be pure and holy. Elysium would be my destination; Since we're talking about the greek now.
posted: 12/20/2006 4:39 PM EST

Dano would like to know:
Yo preston! Are you having a relationship with the God of the old testament who is guilty of every heinous crime imaginable? You are keeping yourself pure and holy for that monster? He is portrayed as so evil in the bible, I don't even like to think about him.
Dano (humanist)

You feel big, Preston? Coming here to stick to the man to us ex-christians? Gonna tell your church about this, or are you just going to feel good about it later?

I'd respond to you too... but frankly you're even dumber than Andrew F. as you're putting your little sticky notes onto his original post.

Hell may be hot, but according to the bible, heaven is hotter.

well i'm proud of you.
but rational thinking is what i'm doing in my situation.

i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus. I could begin to tell you the things i've felt inside of my body, but even muhammad had seizures when the angel told him "god's" prophesy. So i don't believe my personal feelings are much of an argument. the bible is full of a good hundred prophesys that have already been fulfilled. What more proof do i need spirula? I've read bible verses where god orders mass amounts of people to be killed. And frankly, i don't understand the bible as much as i should. Some of the things it says are contradicting and very confusing. But after witnessing miracles and prophesies fulfilled with my own eyes, and feeling incredible feelings all by the name of Jesus.. who am i not to believe? God is sometimes contradicting, but he's god and he can do whatever he wants, we're not even worthy to be his slaves! I'll never be able to understand some of the things he does, but that's why he is my god. I wouldn't want to be bossed around by something i can understand.

preston: "but no, you answered my question with a question. Are you in the slightest bit scared Jim?"

Good grief. The answer is NO, I am not the slightest bit afraid of Hell for I have absolutely no reason to believe it is real. I hope that is now clear.

I think you had better learn more about Islam. According to Allah, Jesus was a great prophet but categorically NOT his "son". In fact, to assert that god would don flesh to become a mere mortal is considered by Muslims to be a great blasphemy punishable by eternity in Hell.

Tut tut Andrew F - you don't know your bible very well do you? According to Revelation, NOBODY will spend eternity in hell. Hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire, and THAT'S where everybody who doesn't think EXACTLY like Andrew will end up, writhing in molten sulphur forever while he and the other handful of True Christians (TM) watch and enjoy.

What a loving, wonderful god Andrew believes in.

R.

Mr. Milton, why would i ever feel good talkin to people who think i'm extremely irrational and immature for believing in jesus? i don't think i'm proud that people think i'm stupid.

You got me Jim. Perhaps muhammad is right compared to all the writers of the bible? for some reason i think i'll stick to Jesus.

sorry that seemed like sarcasm. i'm really not that mean

preston: "Perhaps muhammad is right compared to all the writers of the bible? for some reason i think i'll stick to Jesus."

I'm surprised you would rely upon mere humans, whether individual or by the legion, to convey such an important doctrine. Isn't the question which religion is backed by god herself? If god were to communicate her word to one man, would that not trump anything produced by any number of humans?

You know, Islamic Hell is no vacation. You will long for mere "gnashing of teeth" if you end up there.

Best wishes.

Preston,

Unlike most christians who post on this site you seem to have the guts to hang around and respond to other's posts - so I'll take the time to respond to some of your points.

Essentially, in your question to Jim, you reveal one of the main problems I have with christianity. It (no matter how many protestations people make) is a religion of fear. If you follow it because you're afraid of hell, I pity you. But you're wasting your time trying to spread your fear to others - if anything I hope that by visiting this site you might start on a path to become free of your fear.

And as to the "good feelings" and (apparent) miracles you have witnessed? Well - any and every religious belief system known to humanity claims such things, does that make them true? If that's what you base your beliefs on, particularly seeing as you acknowledge the weaknesses of the bible, then I pity you even more. I wonder what a person like you could contribute to this world, if you weren't shackled to such a destructive, harmful belief system? I wonder if we'll ever know.

My encouragement to you is this - stick around, keep an open mind, and see what happens.

R.

Let's see.....so being "scared" of "hell" is a fantastic, logical, and sound reason to believe in, and love, a deity? Seriously, we are to believe an "all loving" being who offers everlasting bliss---an eternal existance in the most magnificant "place" anyone could EVER conceive---would need to "scare" people shit-less, in order to gain followers? Think about it.

To make an analogy-----is anyone out there "scared" not to love their parents? And if you are "scared" and have been coersed into loving your parents for some perverse reason, you probably don't really love them, do you? That said---wouldn't a "God" want genuine love?....not love out of coersion? Don't you Christians see how utterly ridiculous you sound with your heaven and hell rantings?(rhetorical)

But on to the question: The notion that a non-physical "thing"..i.e.. a "soul", can be tortured in a "physical" place, by "physical" means, for an infinite amount of time is f%cking ABSURD. It's empirically impossible, and even conceptually impossible. Moreover, even if we humor the religionist/dualist for about 9 seconds, such torture in the alleged "lake-o-fire" would "soon" become meaningless and pointless, precisely because it would "never end". There'd be no frame of reference. So "no"... there's NOTHING to be "scared" of...only ignorance.

Don't even get me goin' on "miracles". I am "that mean" when people try to pass off bullshit.

boomslang, miracles happen whether you want to believe they do or not. I'm not believing in god for fear of going to hell i was only asking a question on an ex-christian stand point. Without love you are nothing, isn't that what the bible says?

deception runs so think in your blood that i can't say anything to make you even think that i could be right, on any level. The bible has been right in the past, and it will be right in the future. They already have the blueprints for the new temple and all the furniture has been completed. The united nations are in the process of making a world leader. Mastercard just bought out a company that puts rice sized "pills" inside of your right hand or forehead for identification and such. Wait! doesn't the bible say the mark of the beast will be in the right hand or forehead. It sure does. Natural disasters are happening more and more; it's like a pendulum. The Lord will come as quickly as a theif. the king of glory is coming and you choose not to believe he exsists. You will all see no matter if you believe he exsisits or not. That's all i have to say.

uhg, that was such a typical christian thing to say..

The Bible says Blah blah blah. In my opinion the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. It is mearly a collection of writings and letters that were carefuly choosen while the rest were hidden away.
A Christian's entire faith is based on the contents of these writings. Yet they have never read the other stories that didn't make it. Their faith is not in God but in those who assembled the Bible. Those who thought the earth was flat and at the center of the universe.
Even Jesus said "seek the truth and it shall set you free". Damn straight.

preston said "deception runs so think [thick?] in your blood that i can't say anything to make you even think that i could be right, on any level."

That is extraordinarily rude, preston. Moreover, please read this link to learn what an ad hominem attack is and why it's a fallacy. If your arguments are not persuasive, I suggest you focus on improving your arguments rather than hurling insults.

preston "The bible has been right in the past, and it will be right in the future."

The same can be said of Nostradamus, and for similar reasons (e.g. vaguely-worded open-ended predictions). Do you therefore put credence in all of Nostradamus's predictions?

preston: "...Mastercard just bought out a company that puts rice sized 'pills' inside of your right hand or forehead for identification and such..."

I'll bet this is either an urban legend or something that has been wildly misinterpreted. Please cite your evidence for this.

I'm guessing that you also believe Jesus fulfilled "hundreds" of messianic prophecies. Am I right? If so, can you please tell me how you distinguish between legitimate prophecies and midrashic interpolation (i.e. mining verses from the OT, yanking them out of context, and declaring them to be "prophecies"). Can you also explain why Jesus failed to fulfill many bona fide messianic prophecies, such as becoming king of Israel and ushering in an era of world peace?

preston: "You will all see no matter if you believe he exsisits or not."

Translation: "I am right and you are wrong!" (Very convincing argument.)

preston: "That's all i have to say."

Somehow I doubt it.

i guess you are right. you are god, jim. congratulations.

i hope you have fun with your life. I'll just keep on living my delusioned misconception of what life is really about. maybe we will cross paths sometime. After all, you are a god aren't you.

preston said "i guess you are right. you are god, jim. congratulations."

I've pointed out many of your errors (as have others), and I've explained succinctly why they are errors (as have others). I've even provided several links for you. You are now being disingenuous with your "you are god" comment, which is completely asinine. If you wish to discuss any of the points raised here (sans inflammatory rhetoric), I'll be happy to follow suit. If not, then please take your comments elsewhere. Fair enough?

boomslang, miracles happen whether you want to believe they do or not.

i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus

Young man, a "miracle" is defined as something that defies the laws of nature. People have been "growing teeth" since the dawn of man. There is nothing "law defying" about that. Moreover, people's bodies heal themselves without medicine all the time, and yes, even tumors disappear, just like flu symptoms "disappear", albeit, less frequently.

What you describe is nothing more than improbable coincidence. Furthermore, personal testimony means jack' around here. This is the 21st century, so if your Jesus is currently working all these miracles you speak of, surely at least one has been documented with our current technology. If you can provide such documented evidence for a "miracle", I'd be happy to take a look at it. If not, you have the credibility of a Bigfoot tracker.

I'm not believing in god for fear of going to hell i was only asking a question on an ex-christian stand point.

And I think umpteen people answered your question, even when it should've been obvious that if we are "EX"-christians, we wouldn't believe in such a place as "hell". Simply put---if we were "scared", we'd still be Christians. 'Get it?

Without love you are nothing, isn't that what the bible says?

Only speaking for myself---I couldn't give a sh*t less what the "bible says"(in case you still haven't gotten the "EX" in "Ex-christian" part) And who says we are "without love", anyway ?..who?..YOU? Y'know...it's insulting for you to waltz in here and make such implications, not to mention, you ignored everything I said in my prior post about this "love" you speak of, and how it's nothing more than coersion. Yes, you might "love" your deity with all of your "heart"---that's utterly fantastic---but for those who are skeptical, or born in the wrong geological location..."hell" awaits. "Love Jesus...or burn". THAT is the message of Christianity.

deception runs so think in your blood that i can't say anything to make you even think that i could be right, on any level.

Yes, everyone who doesn't think like "Preston" is "deceived". The bigot's mantra. Furthermore, if your invisble "god" can't convince me himself, then certainly nothing you say can make me think you are "right". Objective evidence, please. Thanks.

The bible has been right in the past, and it will be right in the future.

Okay, guy, just make sure you don't vacation to close to the "edge" of the earth, we wouldn't want you to "fall off", would we? And BTW, watch out for those domestic talking jackasses, they've become a real nuisance out East.

The Lord will come as quickly as a theif. the king of glory is coming and you choose not to believe he exsists. You will all see no matter if you believe he exsisits or not. That's all i have to say.

Okay little man, we got it..we'll all reconvert by tomorrow noon. 'Swear to gawd. lol.

"the bible is full of a good hundred prophesys that have already been fulfilled."

Nobody's used that one since last month!

Jim Arvo: "preston: '...Mastercard just bought out a company that puts rice sized 'pills' inside of your right hand or forehead for identification and such...'

I'll bet this is either an urban legend or something that has been wildly misinterpreted. Please cite your evidence for this."

I actually did see this on "How It's Made" or some such TV show (Science Channel or Discovery) but it wasn't Master Card, just the company that invented them. No one EVER mentioned putting the chip in the HEAD, but the hand and upper arm were recommended for using the chip as an alternative to a cardkey system, as was shown. Even though the chips held no personal data, the system doesn't seem to be that popular.

On the subject of RFIDs, they're REALLY easy to clone and forge... so the Beast uses CRAP Tech.

Black Hats... the last bastion against the anti-Christ. Who'da thought?

Love

Grandpa Harley xxx

Preston,
I have not visited this site in a while. I am not ex-christian. My views are from being brought up non-religious in a Christian society. What comes to your mind when I say the word "pagan"? Polytheism, idolatry, and blood sacrifice are some things that come to my mind. Blood sacrifice theology is a superstitious belief of payment for cleansing of our souls through the spilling of blood. It is one of the most pagan and barbaric of theological beliefs. However, blood sacrifice theology is a part of Judaism, Christianity, an Islam. No matter how the religions wish to evolve their beliefs are rooted in the darkness and superstitions of the pagans we have all descended from.

preston wrote:

i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus.

preston, whose teeth grew back and which teeth were they? How old was the person, and how long did it take for them to grow back? Did a dentist examine this person? Who had the tumor, how old were they, where was it, and how did it "fall off?" Was the person under a doctor's care, and if so how did the doctor react to this? Since you don't supply any details and seem very casual about what would be absolutely extraordinary events I have to conclude that you are making them up.

Hell is very hot! How do you know that Hell is Hot, when I understand that there is no such place, as a Hot-Hell, there are many Hells and they are not Hot, People in England use to say the bury there potatoes in Hell fior the winter ()In other words dig a hole in the ground put there potatoes in the hole and cover them with dirt This is the true diffinition of Hell, sheol, Hole in the ground that is all nothing more than that "Gehenna" (Hell) is the dump outside Jerusalem, and it burnt day and night and the fire was never consumed because there was always new trash Offal or dead bodies, thrown into daily, and the fire was never out. this is the so-called christian Hell.. Gehenna, tartarus, and hades, all three of these Greek terms (Or words)are translated into one english word "Hell" which is idiotic to say the least.
And so is Christ-en-dom!
In Apostasy- error of the worst sorts.

>>
i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus.
>>

SURE you have. OK; now you're a liar. Got any video? Pics? Some evidence other than "you saw"? -Wes.

YOU can't produce a shred of evidence to convince anyone that your religion is true, so now you're having a hissy fit and are throwing insults? My turn: Fuck off, Preston - go frequent a fundy site. -Wes.

My only comment is: are you so sure there really is a hell. I didn't say there isn't, I just said there may not be. Before you make any statements, you should make awfully you know what you are talking about. Things might work out a little different in life than you originally thought.

This message is for all of you posters who are stuck arguing about whether there is a hell or not, or a god or not. Can I get anyone for a moment to just stick to whether or not you believe in blood sacrifice to pay for cleansing of your sins or your soul or whatever? Do you believe this or not? If you do, then you believe in the superstitions of pagan man. The effort here should be to shed these pagan beliefs by looking into ourselves and ask if we really want to worship a being that accepts a blood sacrifice as payment for this cleansing. Perhaps if Christians understand that their religion evolved from pagan belief and is forever tied to it then they will shed this faith and search elsewhere.

Well, you know what Andrew? Here's what I think....I think you are so full of shit your eyes are brown. And, I agree with Mr. Milton...fuck you and all you self-rightous, bible thumping, hypocrite crispies. Your too narrow minded to see that this whole "my way is the right way" is SO arrogant; and intolerant of ANY other belief system other than yours. Where's the "love of jeezus" in that? Your as bad as the muslims. According to those homicidal maniacs theirs is the "one true religion". There is NO one true religion for fuck's sake!
You think that I'm going to YOUR hell too...well fuck you. People make their own heaven or hell...and
one or the other is here on this beautiful planet numbnuts like you keep fucking up because you think your god is going to destroy it and make a new one for your kind. You and your kind, along with the greedy, money-grubbing assholes that have more than they'll ever need, continue to destroy this planet and turn it into a hell because, "Hey! It doesn't matter! "God" is going tomake us "righteous" folks a whole new one!"... right? Uh-huh...and why would "god" give a new planet to the same assholes who fucked it up in the first place? Wake up and smell the shit your shoveling dude.

"strange religieons are beng made 'popular' by the scummy, sorry, pathetic people in hollywood"

I agree...Kirk Cameron and Mel Gibson need to STFU.

Anony: "Before you make any statements, you should make awfully you know what you are talking about. Things might work out a little different in life than you originally thought."

How about if we are awefully sure, you have no idea about what you are talking about. Things might work out a little different in life if you thought.

Perhaps I need to look beyond such trivial matters like spelling, but that was all that I could look at. It distresses me that the word "Eveil" was in there. One read through would have caught those errors.

Listen folks, I've been reading on this website for over 2 years and I've seen these two, Andrew and Preston post their same ignorant garbage on here and they have not read one single argument objectively opposing their beliefs, the reason is that they have been convinced that they are so right in their beliefs, they are so afraid to admit that they could possibly be wrong, because if they were to agree with us and then if we were to suddenly convert back to Christianity by some intervened divined miracle, then they think they would be left standing in the middle of hell and their imaginary God would not take them back.

These people(and all Christians)are psychotic, they suffer from fear induced neurotic psychosis, they are mentally unstable, this shows the condition of the American people, the majority of Americans (mostly Christians and political leaders) are on prescribed neurotic medication and anti-depressants.

They do not have the ability to focus and identify with present day reality.

This condition is so very obvious, so lets leave them be, and let them post their ignorant nonsense, because they have been told that their mental conditioning is correct with ancient insane scripture, their agenda is not to find reason with our comments, but to foster their mental sickness to make themselves appear to look righteous and mentally stable.

The religious Christian agenda is to make it's doctrine appear to be mentally stable and undeniably correct, that's the reason it needs an agenda to spread, Christianity will never end, because it needs to expand in order to populate it's own mentally unstable disease.

All held unverifiable beliefs are only passed down verbally through indoctrination by people in a position of trust and allowed only by the brain to accept false religious dogma's.

Mental instability accurs by not allowing the brain (from false pastoral induced fear) to reject or to analyze by objective reasoning, religious indoctrination, the only cure is to allow one's brain to analyze all unverifiable beliefs, by using normal born-with reason and objectivity, this will remove the unnecessary fear and give back one's original mental stability once held, before acceptance of the indoctrination of false religious dogma's.

We ex-c's, are proof of this reversed mental process, but the fundies cannot see this, nor will they allow themselves to see this.

I member reading about y'all's heeling services ware toomers were falling off in the name of Jesus.

It was a mircle!

Here's more mircle cures for toomers for you ignant infidels:

Magical healing

But not everyone baleeves in the mircle powder of Gawd. Eben some Cristians think faith heblin is dum.

Lookie here: Rick Ross

Does anyone really believe that the creator of the universe is siting up in the sky, being concerned about what the latest version of the ape, on a rather insignificant planet, of a rather small star, thinks about anything? Isn't that being kinda "Homo Sapiens chauvinistic"?
There are at least a billion other planets out there similar to earth, with a large probability of supporting life.
I mean, does anyone really think the old guy with the beard, up there, worries about what kind of sex we have, or what we wear, or which cult we belong to?

Looks like we had better invent a larger God, a better God, a more moral God, a more compassionate God, than the old testament God. He is one, petty, sonofabitch!
Dan (Sorry about saying the "G-D", word)

Ahh, the End Times. It's coincidental that this . . . person should bring the En' Times up, as I've been pursuing, out of my own interest, some of the varied musings from Christians concerning them, and they all have two things in common:

1. The world is worse than it ever has been

2. Da' Glawy of da' Lawd!

1 is very interesting, because the world is obviously BETTER than it ever has been. These End Timers and their knee-jerk reactions to every sob story on CNN . . . hilarious. Every time someone doesn't say Merry Christmas, it MUST be the the Apocalypse! Well, in the original meaning of the word, it is. And what it reveals is . . . the religion is full of BS!

This is one of the reasons I don't visit this web site too often. Christians are too afraid to confront the truth that I present and the Ex-Christians, atheists, agnostics, or whatever are so wrapped up in their logic they can't see the simple way to shut the Christians up. As I have always said it is the theology of blood sacrifice that should be the dividing line. Before Judaism, Christianity, and Islam mankind worshipped god/s and performed blood sacrifices to pay off their god/s. Judaism presented monotheism without idolatry, but did not take away the pagan practice of making blood sacrifices. Christianity provided a religion that has only one symbolic sacrifice (Jesus), but it has become polytheistic with the Trinity of gods and most Christians worship a Gentile image/idol of Jesus. Islam contains the practice of blood sacrifce in the Koran and Muslims practice suicide bombings which is an offshoot of blood sacrifice theology (they get paid off by going to heaven and getting a shitload of virgins). So please just tell Christians, Jews, and Muslims that you wish not to believe in such a god that seems to be appeased by acts of superstitious, barbaric, blood sacrifice. I dare Christians to address and defend their pagan blood sacrifice beliefs to me. I also encourage the non-religious to address this as well because I am tired of your logical bullshit as well. Does your heart believe in in a god that is appeased by blood sacrifice? You will then understand that Jew, Christian, and Muslim are evolved pagans.

Anonymous,

We can appreciate your efforts to find some singular subject with which to confound Christians, but attacking ex-christians for not endorsing your subject du jour seems counterproductive. What makes you think that by “just telling Christians, Jews, and Muslims that you wish not to believe in such a god that seems to be appeased by acts of superstitious, barbaric, blood sacrifice” is going to somehow awaken them? They realize the “bloodlust” of their religions, and they don’t care. In the case of christians especially, they just want others to believe in it as well. Telling them they are appeased by blood sacrifices has about as much impact as saying they are all born with a sinful nature. They would agree wholeheartedly by pointing to the “cleansing power of the shed blood of jesus”. All they really want to do is evangelize, so pointing out the bloody nature of their religious fixation won’t make a bit of difference. I hope you’ve noticed that about their responses.

It seems odd you say you are “tired of (our) logical bull$hit” when that seems to be exactly what you are attempting to do, apply your “theology of blood sacrifice logic” to the argument. Are you saying there is only one argument with which to engage christians?

LOL! Um, can someone please define "logical bullshit"? I mean, at the risk of tiring anyone, it sounds like an oxymoron...e.g.."work party"

boomSlANG,

I wanted to point that out to them, but I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until they posted again.

Jumbo shirmp anyone? LOL

HAHA! Great parody! I know it's not possible for anyone to be so, dare I say, ignorant, to believe in such nonsense!

Oh wait, that was a fundamental Christian poster??? Well, nevermind then.

"i've seen teeth grow back and tumors fall off when someone commands the name of Jesus."

And I call Bull Shit!

Either you are a deluded fool who was taken in by conmen. Or you're a liar.

If not, please provide information to verify that these miracles actually took place - names and addresses of the subjects and witnesses, when and where these miracles took place, and verification by an authentic medical practitioner.

I agree, Warnepiece... Anonymous seems to be making irrational statements...

Religion is a mythology, so I'll use a fitting mytological analogy :-)

Religion, very pre-BCE was segregated by natural doctrine and geography. Early religion chased Natural phenomenon, fertility gods, sun gods, etc., etc., to explain the unknown. However, over time the Natural fear of the Unknown in certain Natural objects, fell away, and so did the belief system over time.

However, just before BCE, religions started employing scribes in a flurry, to record traditional oral belief systems, in writing. The focus of religion (belief system) at that point, moved from a focus on natural phenomenon to "words on paper/papyrus". Reality and answers to life were no longer sought in nature; the answers to life's questions were to be found in a holy book(s). Words replaced natural observation and rational truth.

Around CE, there was a race to codify Holy Scripture into writing, for political and legal reasons. The written reality, in the beginning was like a nine-headed hydra. Over time, other religious heads challenged and attacked the nine-headed hydra, and each time a religious head was struck off it was replaced by two new ones.

The source of belief systems started in religion, and now today, its based on rhetoric. The rhetoric is supported by those seeking political power and control. Chopping off one head, call it "blood sacrifice", will likely do nothing more than create a rhetoric where two new heads/options are created - now the religious have more options to choose from.

I agree with you, someone providing a "blood sacrifice" as a means to kill the multi-headed rhetoric hydra is playing into the hand of religion. Rhetoric will not change a person's belief system alone.

As well, it's as irrational for a person to suggest that logic is useless, while they themselves are using logic; as a religious person using irrational thought to justify their belief with words.

Someone just appears to be drumming up a controversial topic to get a response from all parties. The truth, pardon the extreme over-simplification.... is that religion will continue to exist, until language and communication evolve. There are more people benefiting in all forms of society from the dysfunction of language, communication, and rhetoric - and this dysfunction has no borders, in jobs, careers, families, educational institutions, religions, gov't, etc.

Anyway, this is deeper than it needs to be; there is no hell, it's a word, and its useless. However, I probably don't agree with the religious who suggest the word has meaning. As well, I see anonymous' post as a rationalized irrational statement, but hey, that's just me and my rhetoric :-)

religionkills,

"Hey! It doesn't matter! "God" is going tomake us "righteous" folks a whole new one!"... right?

A perfect example of this was James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan. He essentially used the very same argument for opening up the National Forests to vastly expanded exploitation by mining and timber industries, and attempts to scale back environmental protections and pollution controls.

Fundies kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Watt

Hehehehe, glad I'm not the only one who sees an anonymous poster with a blind spot for a brain.

Srylm.

I couldn’t agree more. I think anonymous has a cause they want to flog in front of us and we haven’t been paying them enough attention.

I like how you describe anonymous’ statement as “rationalized irrationality”. Another excellent oxymoron.