What is a Christian? A Christian is a person whose mind is infested with the thoughts of divine wrath, the atonement, and the thought that only Christians shall be pardoned by God. These are a whole set of thoughts that pollute a Christian's mind, causing all sorts of anxiety, mania, and boorish behavior. I would rather have hepatitus than be afflicted with the thought contagion about "divine penalties for wrong," or to have the five letters "J," "E," "S," "U," "S," etched across my brainpan.

You still don't get it -- we are not interested in who is a True Christian, and who ought to be excommunicated and exposed to the operation of God's wrath. We think the whole religion is idiotic.

Now, if you want to believe in a kind of God without the transparent deceptions of the Christian chainletter, then become a Deist, Taoist, or Platonist. Christianity is for people who wish to insult a God who might truly exist and who wish to lobotomize themselves by ruminating through their religious thoughts.

By the way, Hitler was a Christian.

If we are going to believe in a god "just in case" shouldn't we start believing in all gods and goddesses? After all, you could be wrong, right? You could die and not go to the christian heaven or hell, it could be an entirely different heaven and hell. It could be that you've been worshiping the wrong god or goddess this whole time and have angered the actual god or goddess.

This argument has been used and abused, btw.

Why would anyone want to be an Atheist? For the mere reason that to live without gods and goddesses is to live without excuses.

If you take the time and question you learn a whole lot and knowledge is power.

Do I understand this correctly? I am supposed to simply agree with Christianity for the reward, just in case? How sincere. I think the author makes a good point by saying "I do not understand why anyone would be an atheist". Perhaps an education would help. I can't simply discuss my rational for my system of belief in such an abbreviated form, but I can tell you it was not based on what I had heard, assumed or simply agreed with. You wouldn't see a heart surgeon who only studied one book, you probably wouldn't even go to a mechanic with such a limited education. Why? Because you can't trust them? I cannot believe in what I do not trust, and I certainly do not trust Christianity because of what one book says.

Wow. That was a huge, long, rambling pile of excrement. As if the headache I had from proofreading wasn't bad ENOUGH....

Jesus Christ, man, acquire some basic grammar skills... And some better fragging ARGUMENTS.

I understand your logic because I also had the same thoughts as you at one time. I figured even if the bible is wrong I will lead a better life and what could be wrong with that? A LOT I found out. For one thing
a persons mind becomes warped (brainwashed)over time attending church. Logic is one thing a person must loose to be content with the religion. Once they have convinced you to loose your logic you may never be the same again.
Did you ever notice if you watch a scary movie how a noise in the middle of the night can scare you death? All you can identify with is a bad thought and total fear. Whereas had you not seen the movie you might use logic to decide that it sounded like a tin can hitting the floor and you did leave your soda can on the counter top and the cat must have knocked it over. Same sound different outcome.One you used logic for the cause and the other you didn't. Logic is a very important part of us that we need and it protects us as well. The church wants to take logic and thinking from you.

Not everyone on here is an atheist but I can tell you that all are more educated on the subject of christianity then those sitting in the churches.Once you have researched all the facts from both sides there is only one logical choice.
"If you take the red pill you will see how far this rabbit hole goes".

I think that many here are ex-christians not only because they do not believe in God, for whatever reasons they may have, but also because they can't stomach organized religion.

Organized religion tends to be made up of hypocrites (and I'm not necessarily including you in that group. I know many christians who are very good people, and very sincere people who DO practice what they preach--no pun intended), and these hypocrites tend to do the following:

disparage any beliefs other than their own; attempt to shove their beliefs down other peoples' throats; loudly proclaim that those who hold differing beliefs are going to hell (as if they themselves were God and had the right to condemn others); attempt to force their own so-called moral code on others (consider the marriage amendment, which endeavors to remove basic rights from a substantial portion of American citizens, merely because some holy rollers don't agree with their lifestyle choice), and a myriad of other annoying and potentially harmful behaviors (ie, Representative Barr calling for action against pagans in the military, and Missouri attempting to make Christianity the "legal" religion of the state, which would withdraw protection from all other religions, and is blatantly unconstitutional).

These religious zealots are attempting to make their religious beliefs LAW, and thus force them on everyone else, whether everyone else shares their beliefs or not. They desire a theocracy, and when theocracies rule, people lose rights, and people die.

Now if christians would be civilized about their beliefs, and allow others to believe what they wished, if they didn't demand money every time one turned around, if their leaders weren't constantly being arrested for embezzlement and child molestation, if they weren't so hellfire and brimstone and if they didn't rely on threats of violence before and after death to proseletyze, if they didn't rely on guilt to ensure compliance, and if they weren't so hypocritical as a general rule, I don't think so many people would withdraw, or be reluctant to associate with such a belief system.

But when your religion gives you no reason to believe that there is a god, when your religion is a basically violent group, many become disenchanted, disillusioned, and resentful.

For my part, I withdrew from christianity because it didn't make sense to me, its leaders were hypocritical moneygrubbers, it was intolerant, and it attempted to put itself in the place of God when it came to judgment. I also believe that God/dess can come to people in any way S/He wishes, and if that happens to be the Great Spirit or Zeus, who is some televangelist to tell God/dess "NO. You can't do that. You have to be in this little box and You can't appear any other way."

As you may be able to tell, I'm not an athiest, and I'm not an agnostic. While I concede that we believers in a Higher Being may be wrong, I personally wish to believe in something greater than myself. True or not, it gives me a feeling of having a bit of control over my existence, and if it contributes to my mental health, it's a good thing.

But when religion DOESN'T help, when it makes you feel worse about yourself, when it makes you feel constantly guilty for enjoying the life you were given, when it makes you downright unhappy, it's human nature to turn away from a Being who seems so vengeful and jealous and petty. Who would want to believe in something like that, much less devote their lives to it?

I'm not ragging you, so please don't take it that way. If your belief makes your life good, keep it, and don't let anyone take that from you, or shame you into abandoning it. You may be wrong, but if it makes your life better, if it makes you a better person, there's not a damned thing wrong with it.

It's the crazy fundies that most of us refer to when we disparage christianity. So don't take it personally

--unless you're one of those self-righteous crazy fundies who like to go around condemning people to hell, that is...

jordan wrote,

Also mohamads dead body is still here on earth Jesus is not.

Here's one Very fatal flaw in the NT!
Jesus's physical body was gone. Why? If it is the soul that rises to Heaven, the tomb need not be opened.

But the tomb was OPENED!!! WHY???
Because Jesus walked out, thats why, you and millions have fallen for the JESUS HOAX!!!!

There was no need for the tomb to be opened, but yes, it was witnessed by many, the tomb was open. His physical body did not rise to Heaven according to scripture the Body does not rise, it's the soul that rises.

Jesus's physical body should have still been in the tomb, but it was gone!!! Why??? Because Jesus walked out, thats why?


Then you said,
Your house did not build itself did it? Someone had to do it for you and whoever that was they had to know what they were doing otherwise your house would have fallen apart.

Does a church build itself?
Who builts any church? God??? NO it was a MAN! Men build churches, not any God! Who knows how to build a church properly to suit God's requirement for worship??? You Perhaps!!! A man perhaps????

jordan
You've been had, you've been taken, you've bought into the lie of religion, you are the exact type of people that religion is looking for, the guilble, the naive, the fearful, the emotional, the dumbed down, the down trodden, the sheep that want to be led around by their noses.

Keep your damned religion, it's just a belief, that you've allowed to accept as being true, that you've allowed to be stored in your
weak mind. After death, all Gods religions, fairytales, superstitions, beliefs die along with all thoughts, thats it, you go to were you were before you were born, into complete nothingness forever.

And 2ond Peter! men should be so lucky!

You think Hitler was an Athiest...I am so sick and tired of people saying that because my friend he was a devout christian....

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"The National Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."
— Adolf Hitler, Berlin, 1933, first radio address after coming to power

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . We need believing people."
— Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order

Go to
http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AHitler.htm

for more quotes from this very obvious christian.

Hitler being labeled as an Atheist, is the blatant lie that preachers love to use to sway people to christianity.

There's a jackass preacher on the radio near here, that says that if it had not been for God sending the pilgrims over here, we would be a communist country now.

And people call in a agree with everything that jackass says.

He says that is why God has Blessed America so much is because of our christian background, tell that to the 50 million Native American Indians that the pilgrims killed and stole all their land.

We don’t have all the answers. You come in here with the idea that we’ve all stopped searching for a keener understanding of this world. We haven’t.

But you, sir, do not offer answers, what you offer is anti-knowledge.

We don’t fear hell because you can fear something you don’t believe in. In the same way you don’t fear reprisal from Zeus, we don’t fear reprisal from the mythical Christian god.

You seem to believe that Christianity and atheism are the only options - further that Christianity is monolithic. Both assumptions are false.

First there are many alternatives to being a Christian if one needs to have God(s) or Goddess(es) in their belief system. It's not a matter of "believe in Jesus or believe in nothing." Many here are atheists, but by definition this website is here to support ex-Christians, not atheists per se. Some here are atheists, some to agnostics and some have embraced other philosophies or other world religions.

Someone already pointed out that you would have to believe in every religion to truly "cover all your bases." This is obviously not possible, because Christianity generally requires you believe only in it to the exclusion of all others. Since most of the other religions generally don’t likewise condemn you for embracing Christianity, it would APPEAR that Christianity is a good choice in terms of “playing it safe.” For example the Buddhists will still let you be reincarnated if your Christian heaven belief proves to be untrue.

HOWEVER you’re not really “playing it safe.” There are literally thousands of Christian denominations and many of them require you to reject not only the other major religions but also the doctrines of other Christian churches. You may still go to hell for getting baptized in the name of Jesus, or getting baptized in the name of the Trinity, or being sprinkled as opposed to immersed in water. You may go to hell for speaking in tongues, or for not speaking in tongues, or for keeping the Sabbath on Saturday instead of Sunday (or vice versa). In short, no matter what brand of Christianity you choose at least one of the others will condemn you to hell. Further, if the doctrine of predestination is true you could be already destined for hell no matter what you do. Gosh, what’s a poor narrow-minded guy to do?

Jordan,

It's not always about what one "wants to believe." I might want to believe I have a billion dollars in the bank, but that doesn't make it true. And it wouldn't even mean I honestly believe it.

A reasonable person believes only what makes sense, or that for which there is abundant evidence. One who claims to believe "just in case" hell is real in not a real believer, but a hypoocrite. If your God is real, don't you think He knows the difference?

You ask a lot of questions and make a lot of statements that indicate you are very ignorant about non-Christians. I suggest you read the postings on this site for a few weeks, and you'll learn many of the answers.

Your argument that we should believe "just in case" is a bad one according to your bible.

"Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

An atheist who would try to believe "just in case" is only fooling themselves. Your god would reject us.

I reject all superstitions.
I will live my life like there was no tomorrow. I will treat all people like I will never see them again.

It does not change my life because I do not believe in an invisible cloud being, but if it makes you feel better ... go for it dude.

I have searched for answers and found but one, I have searched for truth and discovered only one, I have longed for life, and I recived it.
No man can ever know all the deep things of this world, no man can ever gain all knowledge or acquire al wisdom. The ancient mysterious of this world are too great for us. Some are too holy, some too sacred, some too evil, some to wonderful. They are beyond us. And God is beyond us, and we are unworthy. And yet...every person of very race has been given this one chance to know God, and to know GOd is life. Nothing compares to the greatness of knowing God. I have searched.

I am sure any one who has sent any amount of time within the Body of Christ has heard that Christianty is not about religion but relationship...with God. Not everyone understands what this means.
There are some angry people who say some pretty angry things on this site about relgion...which is perhpas understandable. They also say some pretty nasty things about about Jesus. And they say they want proof before they will have faith.
It's intresting...because I have it. I have proof inside me. This treasure of mine...this proof this truth. How I wish I could share it with the world but the world will not listen to me. They will not listen to God so why would they listen to me?
Why speak then? Because God is fair and just and in the end we will all agree with that statment.
Why would anyone want to be an Atheist...beacuse it is easier that way.
Searching for God, who is so much higher than us, is hard...cause you can't reach Him on your own steam so you have to hummble yourself and be carried on the wings of his Son. This can be painful to our pride.
But love is not proud. And I love Jesus very much. I love my God. I love knowing him. My pride is nothing.
There are many questions about God and how any of what we teach can be true and how any of it makes sence and I don't want to get into all that...since there is no point. You can't really ever win an argument against a determined oppenent.
But I will say that I have questioned God many times...many, many time, friends.
I have asked the question why?
And in the end I don't know all the "whys" but what I do know is that when a frightend little boy, who was struggling with sin, was attacked by demons in the middle of the night...he called on the name of Jesus and two angels appeared and saved him from the claws that where digging into his chest and the fear that was gripping his soul.
Ha...do you belive that? Was I dreaming? No...I had never been so awake. I'll never forgot those angels. They walked on air, it seemed. One stood close to my bed while the other stood over my brothers, guarding. It was amazing.
And God changed me, he changed me from being a hatful persom, a bigot, a racist...into a loving person. The part of him that's part of me is the only part worth anything. Cause I was a horrible sinner even during my "Christian walk."
But that's because I was not walking with Jesus, I was just walking with religion.
Now beacue I know God I am being changed. I am a different man. Now I care about people.
Why do I have Jesus etched across my brain? Because he's worth it.
When I stopped playing church and started seeking to KNOW God it changed my life. It changed everything. I got my proof.
I got my proof when I held the bleeding wrists of a very depressed fifteen year old girl and told her God loved her...I felt the proof of God's love inside me reaching out to her.
I got my proof when I prayed with a man that nobody loved, who had been abused horribly by catholic priests, a man that was so bitter and angry...I got my proof when I prayed for him with everything that was in me and seen the Spirit of God touched him and seen the freedom pour forth from his weeping eyes.
I got my proof, and I hope you can get yours.
I have seen the dark side of relgion, I have seen that not all is well with the world. But I have also seen that knowing God is the greatest thing in the world and is worth searching for.
If you want proof of God ask him for it and don't stop until you get it. Oh...and he does love you. He loves you. He loves...you. He really does
love
you
still.
And that's all I have to say about that.

I am a Christian and I am also gay, so I am mainly speaking from that perspective.
Articles have been written about me and I have also wrote on my love for minorities [esp. the Blacks during the 60s-70s], the Mafia, syndicate; gangs such as the Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Latin Kings, Vice Lords. I have talked about my street kids, including a girl of 11 or 12 who would number her "Daddies" one through seven or the 7th grader selling pot to other kids. I was invited to Russia to teach and speak on the "successes" I had. I was even allowed the freedom to share God's love with the Russian Mafia and syndicate. After one speaking engagement a gang member thanked me for, "not giving up on us gang kids".
I would love these people, "my kids", whether I was a Christian or not.
So why all this "braggadocios" stuff? It's because when I would leave the area I was in the local church that was supposed to care and continue to minister to these, my kids, would not for various reasons [not enough time, too dangerous etc but probably the real reason was because they were not seen as a good investment].
Yes, I know that I am guilty of beating this dead horse often, but I get ticked when Christians often claim that another Christian isn't really a Christian because...
Almost all Christians want to distant themselves from Rev. Fred Phelps or those Christians that do certain crimes.
A good friend of mine had his college bound gay cousin beaten to death by two Christians who then threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. These two Christians told the police they threw the gay youth into the dumpster because "that is where trash belongs".
One Christian said if it were legal he would stone me and my gay kids to death. When I would tell some of my groups stories of some of my gay kids-like one who tried to hang himself and later tried to slash his throat because of the ordeal of reparative therapy; or the one who lay under his sheets for three or four weeks with his dad's rifle pointed in his mouth; or about the Christian mother who told her 15 yr. old gay son, "I hope you go to prison and get raped" etc, etc-guess who would offer to write them words of comfort, love and acceptance? It was the atheists, humanists, agnostics and others; not ONE Christian replied to any of my stories, unless I told them in a Christian gay site.
There are some wonderful Christians and Churches that welcome gays openly; however, it is a shallow and felonious argument to say, A true Christian wouldn't do that". I hate that excuse. True Christians have been involved in Crusades that killed millions-"convert or die" etc, they have persecuted and hung blacks,using the Bible to justify their evil acts. they have also used the Bible to deny women the right to vote and today we know they use the Bible to persecute us[gays]. Christians try to distant themselves from the likes of Fred Phelps and his teachings but what he says he backs up with his Christian fundamental beliefs taken out of the Bible. But he shows his hate towards us while other Christians who feel the same remain silent. So we either are spoken evil of openly or silently; but in either case it causes great harm and sometimes death[suicide] to our youth. I am a former pastor who has preached in and visited many fundamental churches and these people are Christians and they believe we are an abomination. If you don't believe me ask the teenagers-one was only 12 whose lives I prevented from committing suicide because of the teachings of true Christians on the issue of homosexuality. As I have often said and written, "the blood of gay youth who took their life will be on the hands of Christians". I told that to the church that recently excluded me and told me to never set foot in it again after my former pastor told my new pastor that I was gay. And this happened even though I have not been unfaithful to my wife of 31 years-I wasn't even looking at porn[I still don't and won't]. I am still a Christian because I see the majesty of my God in the universe He created and because of what Jesus Christ did to me on a cold winter night in 1971.
As far as the Bible, I believe that much of it has been corrupted by the hand of man for control, greed and political motives.
Later my friends,
blaine

We're not risking anything. There is absolutely no reason to believe in any kind of life after death, so what are we risking? Nothing.

Becoming religious is not like turning on a lightbulb. You don't just wake up one morning and say, "Gee, from this point on, I'm going to be a Lutherin."

If you've read any of the x-timonies on this sight, jordan, I think you'll see that in pretty much every case the decision to de-convert came only after a lot of studying, seeking and soul searching. We've all dealt with the problems of death, the origins of reality and the possibility (however slight) that the bible is the truth and found that these problems are not nearly as difficult as they may seem.

So why would anyone not want to be a christian? I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see the "win - win" situation that you describe. For me, becoming a christian would mean giving up my ability to make my own choices; to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong. I would lose my self respect, my independence and many of the friendships I have made. I would gain the shame of being a sinner, the arrogance of being blessed with salvation and the constant fear that I might not really be saved at all. I would be obligated to sacrifice my time, effort and money to people and institutions with agendas that I might never be aware of and probably wouldn't agree with if I did.

This is just part of the price I would have to pay to becaome a christian again. And for what? Because there might be a god named Jehovah? Who might have had a son named Jesus? And there might be a place called Hell? And we might be cursed with original sin because two people, who might have lived in a magic garden, might have eaten a magic piece of fruit from a magic tree? And maybe, just maybe, if we believe in the right interpretation of the right version of a book that might be the devine word of god, then we might not wind up going to this horrible place called hell (assuming it exists).

You're right about never being 100% sure about anything. But there is such a thing as reasonable certainty. I can't be 100% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow or that my feet won't just fall off or that President Bush isn't really Bigfoot in disguise. But I can be reasonably certain that the sun will rise and my feet will be alright and we ain't lucky enough for Bush to be Bigfoot. Like wise, I consider the probability of christianity to be so low and the price to join so high that its not even worth considering.

hey blaine...
I have had the chance to minister to to a number of people who struggle with homosexual behaviors as a Christian and from a bibical stand point. Homosexuality is wrong, it is sin, but we still love the people...even if they do sin. There are people who are attracted to the same sex...people who like animals...are inclined towards children...people who like themselves...there are all sorts of people strugging with perversion...and haveing a hard time of it because they can't seem to figure out what's wrong with them. Now the world teaches that nothing is wrong with them and there is nothing they can do to change themselves.
But we teach and the bible teaches that yes...there is somthing wrong with all of us but that we can be free of those things which keep us in chains. You don't have to struggle with homosexuality. I I know of many people (some who are very close to me, and some by word of mouth) who overcame this battle by the blood of the Lamb and are living in the freedom and joy Christ offers. Now if you want to be gay then there is nothing I can do or say to aid you. I am only saying that if you want to be free I can help with that. I don't want to argue with anyone about this...I simply want to state that if there are those out there who struggle with perversion, whether it be directed at children, animals, or the same sex, ect, and want to be free of it they can be and can experince more joy and happiness as they draw closer to God.

I assure you that much of this is assoicated with demonics...if you don't belive me you will have a hard time casting them out. Once again...if you don't want to be free don't listen to me. But if you do... here is how.

Pray this:
Jesus, I belive in you. I belive you have all power and authority over all things. I humble myself before you and cast down every speculation and argument against the true knoweldge of you. I ask you to show me the truth and the way to freedom.
(Contuine to seek God until that truth and way to freedom becomes known.)
Then:
bind the demon of perversion in the name of Jesus Christ and declare your freedom loudly. Every time you are tempted or bothered by thoughts not of God speak scripture. "He (meaning you) whom the son sets free (from homosexuailty) is free indeed" Speak it till somthing breaks, speak it till it's real. And have faith.
If you belive you Jesus can set you free, he will.
Each person is differnt...so it is important to contuine to seek God about your deliverence until it is complete...
I hope you take what I have said to heart. IF you don't belive me then ask God about what I am saying...and keep asking, and keep an open mind to him, and he will speak.
If you don't want to live in sin I can't stop you. So go ahead and... see where it leads you if life. But I advise agaisnt it and I belive things can get better.
Anyway.
God Bless.

CC,

You're clearly not listening to us, not even caring to read the things we are writing. We have written a lot of things on this website, such as the reasons we don't believe in your god anymore, and if you had read the forums thoroughly, you wouldn't try to reconvert us by using appeals to emotions.
And you're a hypocrite. You think that we should believe "the proof inside YOU", but if a muslim came to you and asked you to believe "the proof inside HIM", you wouldn't give him the time of the day.
Not only that: you're ignorant. Know why? Because even little children know that the greatest fear of humankind is DEATH. And you, a christian, who have a warm, conforting blanket to wrap you in everyday ("I will live forever! I will live forever in a very happy place where there is only love and no worries, wheee!") DARE to come here, and tell us, who have no such blanket ("this life, this world, is everything we have. After we die, of old age or something else, it all ends there.") that it's easier to be atheists than to be christians? Seems to me that the easier thing to believe, is the afterlife you believe in. A nice neverending fairytale of a place where everything is perfect and there is no evil witch. We are the ones that deal with this reality everyday, accepting that there is NO easy escape route to a magical wonder place all full of happyness and faeries with feathery wings and such. We outgrew the faerytale.
(Notice that this also means that an atheist sacrificing his life for a noble purpose is, in my eyes, more pure and corageous than a christian sacrificing his life for what he deems a noble purpose: the atheist is sacrificing it all; the christian is just doing something that he knows will be, yeah, maybe painful, but that will bring him straight to heaven, so in the end he'll be much happier than he is now.)

So why should we listen to you spewing the same shit we have already heard from thousands overzealous christians? ..and yes, you ARE trying to reconvert us, or you wouldn't have posted here at all.
Stop preaching, and start discussing.
Or if you won't do either, just go the f*ck away from here.

P.S. by the way, the sentence "christianity is not a religion but a relationship" is born and existing only in america. That sentence does not exist AT ALL in my country. And my opinion on it is that it's an invention of a christian minister trying to convert to his cult the people disgusted by religion. Yeah, change the definition and everybody will come to you, right? If someone is disgusted by coca cola, just rip away the name on the bottle and stick over it the pepsi label, right? Wake up and smell the coffee, it's not the ETIQUETTE we're disgusted in, it's the taste of the drink!

The not a true christian argument followed up with Pascals wager, bored now. I enjoyed the whole science is wrong because it changes. Obviously he did not look up what exactly science is and why it always changes. It changes because some of the time it is wrong, but on a whole our understanding of and the evidence for scientific theories is evolving. As new things are discovered, tested, and understood the old things are discarded or added to. For the better part of human history the earth was flat, the center of the unviverse, and immobile. That changed when brave people dare to go against dogma and actually look up at the "heavens" for themselves.

It's not a religion? It's a relationship? BULLSHIT!!!

Click here.

I don't have the luxury of "choosing" to be an atheist.

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Probably not.

Have you ever believed in Santa Claus? Probably so.

Why don't you still believe in Santa Claus? There is plenty of evidence for his existence. There are lots of stories about him. Millions of people around the world who don't know all the facts still believe in Santa Claus. And you can't prove that he doesn't exist either.

But we "know" Santa Claus is not real because the story is just too ridiculous and there is no credible evidence for Santa's existence that cannot be reasonably explained. We know reindeer don't fly. We know that one person could not travel the entire world in one night. We know that no person could possibly know everything about everyone on earth. In short, we "know" that Santa is not real.

So, is there any way you could go back and "choose" to believe in Santa Claus again? Could you just forget all you know about the Santa Claus myth? Could you forget all you know about the world in which you live and believe Santa is real by faith alone? Of course you can't. You would be lying to yourself.

So it is with me and gods. They are mythical, just like Santa Claus. I "know" it and I can never pretend I don't know it. It doesn't matter how much I would like for gods to exist or how much better things would be if they did exist. They don't and that's all there is to it. I just live with it. It's not hard once you get used to it. I'm sure it was painful, but you got over Santa Claus didn't you?

It's true that ignorance is bliss, but only for the ignorant.

Jordan,

First off, your writing style tells me you are very likely a young person. Whether you are or not you have much to learn, Grasshopper. Spend some time reading some of the materials on this site and other non-Christian sites. Google terms and ideas you don't understand.

Nearly everything you said was simply another tired restatement of Pascal's Wager. Google it. It's on Wikipedia.

The problem with Pascal's Wager (in Christian terms), is that it amounts to being "lukewarm" as defined in the Bible (check out Revelation 3:16 for the implications). It is following God based on risk analysis rather than faith.

"You think the Bible contradicts but science is always changing and its because it is wrong a lot."

Science is always changing because we are always learning. The self-corrective nature of the scientific method is one of its benefits, not a drawback as you seem to think. On the other hand, the Bible does contain contradictions and is just plain wrong about many things, and has no mechanism for correction because it is supposed to be the inerrant and infallible, divine word of God.

"You also say that the burden of proof is on christians. Atheists are the ones with the all risk no reward belief. I think that would put the burden of proof on you because most people would rather take a shot at something than a definite nothing...Also if atheism is true like you say then atheists would have been the first people on earth until someone made up God so the burdern of proof would be on you."

Let me rephrase the first part of this statement thus:

"I saw a ghost. Prove to me I didn't."

The burden of proof is always on the person making a positive claim, particularly a supernatural one. Always. In law or in life, when a person makes a claim to have witnessed a crime or to have seen a ghost, or to have spent last Saturday cavorting with leprechauns, the burden of proof is on them. Period.

As to the second part of your statement, I'm sure you're aware that throughout history humanity has created hundreds of gods. That being the case, why should we believe this god is any different from the others? Again, the burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion, not on those who doubt that assertion.

Your last paragraph degenerates into little more than a confused rant. Please do yourself a favor and spend more time reading and learning.

Anyway, moving on to CC...

Rather than waste all of our time by doing a point-by-point rebuttal, I'd just like to address one particular statement.

"There are people who are attracted to the same sex...people who like animals...are inclined towards children...people who like themselves...there are all sorts of people strugging with perversion."

All of whom - according to the Bible - are to be killed, not cured. When do you plan to start obeying your God? How many do you think will experience God's justice under your righteous hand before the police cart you away?

Just in case...

CC, nobody wants you to start obeying your God the way I put it in my last post, and hopefully you would reject such a notion. What I meant to say is simply that for all your talk, you are no different than any other Christian. You do not have a special one-on-one connection/relationship with God that gives you insight into His character or a special mission to convert, cure, or save anyone. What you have is a religion. A dangerous religion.

The title of this posting has me a little pissed: "Why would anyone want to be an atheist".

jordan, an atheist is what I am. I do not choose to be an atheist, and I cannot choose to be other than what I am. I am also a lesbian--do you know what a lesbian is?--and I cannot choose to prefer men over women.

I can choose to go on for a few more lines. I am happy and proud to be who I am. I do not think you understand that. Like 'geek said, you are a young person--I would guess your age at 12, give or take. I fail to grasp why your deity would take offense at me. Take offense at what? Why would a god want to hurt me for any reason?

The problem, cookie, is you. You have been taught to fear, hate, and damn all those who are not like your parents and their friends; the true christians. You need to grow up.

Let me jump-start your maturing process: a lesbian is a woman who wants to have sex with other women. You are too young to know what passion is, but we feel passion for those of our own gender. Your religion condemns us. We condemn your religion.

And to CC: stuff it. You made me sick with your imbecilic slobbering. Get out of here and go change your pants.

Ubergeek, where have you been? Me has been missing you. Have ye been out sinning? Reprobate.

I was never really much of a christian. But, oh, how I tried! (Who wouldn’t want to be, in this society, where atheists are demonized and True Believers™ lord it over everyone else and treat anyone who doesn’t hold their views like shit?)

I visited more than 80 christian churches, running the full range from pentacostal to catholic to congregationalist, looking for a spiritual home. I just couldn’t believe what they were telling me.

I prayed and fasted and sacrificed and begged god to give me the gift of faith. Nothing happened. I asked my Christian friends and their pastors to pray for me, also. Zilch!

Then I actually read the KJV through a couple of times. I purchased and read other translations of the bible. I took up a serious study of religion and christianity in particular, trying to absorb all views. That’s what it did it for me; convinced me that it’s all a sham and turned me into an atheist forever.

Keep reading and studying, maybe you’ll learn, too. Then, you’ll be free and not have to live your life in fear of a cruel, psychotic “god” who values credulity above all else and who causes the eternal torture of people who live just as he created them by daring to think independently.

Why would anyone want to be an atheist?

Honesty.

And why do you call yourself Mariana Trench? Because you're so deep? Do you know that the deepest part of the trench is named the Challenger Deep? Do stick around....I think we'll be pals.

Arvo, I do not see you around very often. A shame.

I just wanted to say a little more to Mariana.

As a former catholic I am frequently puzzled over the stories of former fundamentalists. The stories involve a disappointed expectation--they were told that some big change was going to happen.

In the catholic church, nobody is told to expect anything. There is no conversion experience; nothing like that. You are baptised; you are confirmed, and there you are. Apostasy happens gradually and very undramatically, like watching shit dry. But eventually you find yourself an unbeliever......uh......and there you are.

Why would anyone want to be a Christian? Your God is a true horror. Ever notice that all the Bible's definitions of satan also fit God?

But hey, we don't hate Christians. We just hate the Christianity.

Hi, Brigid! You asked, "And why do you call yourself Mariana Trench? Because you're so deep?" Something like that - and also because I have a weird sense of humor.

About Catholics: A friend of mine converted from United Methodist to Catholicism when she got married about 18 years ago because that's what her husband's family attends, not that he ever goes to church ;-) She says she finds it strange that Catholics are discouraged from praying but instead are told to rely on the priests to intervene with god on their behalf. However, she stays because she likes the ritual and the music, and because her daughters now go to catholic school.

Anywho, I suspect that a lot of Catholics and mainstream/liberal protestants go to church for similar reasons - for the pomp and the socializing, etc. - not because they really believe the doctrine. i.e., I suspect the vast majority of Americans are actually agnostic but fear "god's bullies" too much to label themselves as such.

I have something interesting for you dear butthead!

One of my friends said that Heaven is between the mesosphere and ionosphere. where do you think is the exact location of Hell?

Both heaven and hell is inside you.

Marianna!!!!

I wanted to say a little about myself. I quit the church when I learned about its bloody history--I might say more on that later. What little was left of my beliefs went away one evening while watching tv. This boy and I were watching "Robin Hood" (Errol Flynn; Olivia DeHaviland) and it was such a beautiful story and the boy snuggled me and petted me. I knew then that I did not want gods or heavens or holy books; I wanted a nice warm boy to hold me and be nice to me.

I still like guys, but I found that I just feel closer to my own gender, and I identify with lesbians. I am in a D/s relationship with a woman I call Mistress. I have many male and female friends and I am never lonely, and what I felt at the age of 16 has not changed. I want people. I do not want gods, or sons of gods, or blessed virgins, or saints. I want a real live lover to touch me and talk to me.

'scuse me, I am starting to sniffle.Bye

I had to go have a good cry. Damn my feelings.

Blain, a gay christian makes no more sense than a jewish nazi. Would you mind explaining what the hell a gay christian is?

And anonymous, I can tell you where hell is. Hell is between my legs. Enter there, and you will know the fires of wrath. Pleasure so wicked you would trade your soul. Abandon all hope.

Hi again to you, Marianna. When I start talking about what's in my heart, I can go up like Mt St Helen. I try to act so tough. Yeah right.

Hi Brigid,

I still hang around here; in fact, probably more than I ought to. Often I get absorbed in projects or have pressing deadlines, so I disappear for a while, but I always come back and check out what folks are discussing here. Truth be told, I find the fundy rants the most entertaining. It's like a really interesting puzzle to me--what *could* they be thinking? It's particularly puzzling to me because I cast of Christianity at about the age of seven, so believing adults are something of an enigma to me.

Now, the poster who started this thread actually sounds very young to me--teens, maybe. Just look at all the clichés and fallacies in that post. It's practically an encyclopedia of muddled thinking. It would take hours to systematically address all the fallacies. Is it even worth the time? Critical thinking is clearly not one of Jordan's strong suits, so he's likely to keep spewing that nonsense (e.g. why are there still monkeys?, and Pascal's wager, and you were never a true Christian, etc. etc. etc.).

Anyway, I'm just rambling... (to show I'm still here)

Hello Jim, and no, you are not rambling. I come here daily so I can hear what rational people sound like. Then I imitate them. Comparing your kind to jordan's kind is a real pleasure.

But you know.....I still persist in trying to wage an argument against these losers, as though some defense were needed. We need no defense for living our own lives and thinking our own thoughts. Is it true that in colonial America, there were towns where some guy would go up and down the streets, beating a big drum, and summoning people to church. People would leave their houses, meek as rabbits, and follow the drummer to church. When I read that, I did not know whether to laugh or get sick.

I am reminded of what Emiliano Zapato once said: "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees".

Hi Brigid,

You're back! I didn't know. I've been around but mostly lurking, with one exception. I make daily visits, but sometimes only skim to avoid information overload.

I'd ask how your vacation went but don't want to get too off topic. If you like you can email me at googleman70@yahoo.com.

If I knew more people in my area who aren't lost in faith, I might be able to go out sinning more often. As it is, my social life is limited at the moment. What would really be nice is someone to, um, have sin with. ;) But that'll come with time. No pun intended. Or was there...?

Jim,

I agree with you that the poster sounds young. Also, I agree with Brigid that it's a shame you don't post as often as some of us. You're always lucid and help make us think.

Hi 'geek, I figured you'd stroll in here soon.

My vacation: I do not remember exactly what I posted....something about the need to get away. I have these flashbacks to my catholic days. It is not rational, at least I know that, but the guilt can come back almost as strong as ever. At such times Mistress gets me away for a day or two--I like the beach--and I get back to normal real quick.

I am sitting here staring at the goddamned screen and cursing everybody who did this to me. I was a child, goddamnit, and they put those ideas into my head. Assholes.

I'm just glad I'm out of all that. But you know....to this day I cannot pass a catholic church without shivering.

Jordan: "Why would anyone want to be an Atheist?"

To avoid the mind rape you’re having right now. Whatever happened to Critical Thinking with you Christians? Hell Heaven Hell Heaven, Rewards Hell Heaven Rewards blah blah blah…that is all I’m hearing. All you have is a fearful, childlike, uneducated, and ignorant belief system that is to, supposedly, reward you with candy if you are a good little boy or brussel sprouts if you are naughty naughty naught.

My question is: Why would anyone adhere to a belief system that tells mankind they are to the likes of filthy rags (menstrual cloth) just for a reward?

Anyone today, in the light of scientific knowledge, who believes that a mere 2000 years ago a God berthed himself through a young virgin girl and became the God of Christianity has a problem with the mind. Hell like Heaven of course just don't even exist.
Cheers all Jim Lee. Australia

So it's better to be fearful and panicky than to think for yourself? That's basically what you're saying: "I'm afraid to think on my own so I better believe in God because the Bible tells me so..." What a pathetic reason for being a Christian. If you were to tell me you were Christian because it made you feel better about yourself and minkind, or because it helped you get out of trouble/drugs/etc. I'd respect that; but to say you are a Christian because you're afraid is simply pathetic.

Have a great life living in fear, coward.

Hey Blaine and CC ...

I am gay and I was a Christian.
You can read my Ex-testimony here: http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2005/08/i-am-free-from-religion.php

I knew from a very early age that I was gay. And I prayed to "god" to change me. I did not want to be gay.

The reason i prayed to be a heterosexual was not because someone forced themself on me. There was no priest or creepy relative. My parents were always there and are very loving people. Nope, I was actually pretty comfortable with the actual physical aspect of homosexuality.

The reason I wanted change was because I saw how "faggots" are treated in this society. I did not want my parents, family and friends to hate me. The ONLY reason I wanted to be "normal" was becasue it was the Christian way.

Well, I searched and studied the religion and found massive flaws in your "bible". I realized that Christianity subverted Judaism. Just as Mormonism subverted Christianity.

I now no longer believe in Invisible cloud beings. And I have become a much happier person for it. The idea that a god created flawed humans and then sent himself to earth to redeem himself to himself for the mistake he made is rediculous. The notion of Santa Claus makes much more credible sense than Chriatianity.

Keep your religion and your sick and hideous reparative therapy.

I am happier without them

Asuryan, you said...

"christianity is not a religion but a relationship" is born and existing only in america. That sentence does not exist AT ALL in my country. And my opinion on it is that it's an invention of a christian minister trying to convert to his cult the people disgusted by religion."
Hmm. The relationship teaching does not come from man but from God through his Bible. The Bible was not written in the west. Read 1 John...he talks about knowing God throughout. "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love" IT also talks about how the world does not know God and therefor does not know us (the children of God)
1 John 2 3: "by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep his commadments"
and so on...
Paul said that nothing compares to the greatness (or priceless gain) of knowing Christ Jesus.
Jesus talked about no one knowing the father except him and anyone he choses to show the father too.
So this is hardly a modern idea.

Add I am not telling you to believe the truth inside of me, I am telling you to seek the truth from the source so you can have it inside of you.

If you ask people what their greatest fear is, on average, more people say their greatest fear is public speaking...not death. Public speaking is embarsing. It has to do with pride which is what I was refering to.
Although you may be right that Christ way is easier than being an athiest. I am willing to accept that since Jesus himself said his burden is light... But at the same time finding God is difficult even though he is not very far from any of us. But forgive me if I offended you.

But you are wrong to say that I am a hypocrite because I would not give a muslim (or someone who belived differntly than me) the time of day. I am giveing you the time of day, am I not? I have taken the time to read a lot things I don't agree with that are offencive to me on this web site because I think it is important to listen.
And why do you think I writing to you? Because I am a brainwashed fantic? Nope. It's because I care. I said you would not listen, and I was right...I knew you would insult me, and I came back anyway. Because I belive you can still be saved and I want that for you even though I do not know you. Why do you hate me for caring?
I am not claiming to be a super Christian or that I never sin. I am just a guy with a bad temper and a lot of problems. But I have found peace and joy and I want to share that with others. It's not just about salvation or just about attending church or about the ten commandments. It's about living in the Spirit. Lot of people miss this. Christ died so he could send us the Holy Spirit so we could overcome the world and our sin and have fellowship with him. Just to be with him. And anyone living in the Spirit is not under the law. This is what knowing God is all about. WHich brings me to my next point.

...Ubergeek. You also said, refering to the sexual imoral: "All of whom - according to the Bible - are to be killed, not cured."
That was according to the OT law. Death by stoning I belive. Now we Now the Law condems us all to death. Every human. But christ blood can set anyone free from death.
"Do not be decived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkars, nor revilers, nor swinders, will inherit the kingdom of God.
"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justifed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Sprit of our God"
1 Corinthians 6: 9-11.
So then, anyone who sins can be justifed and purified.
I will admit that many in the church do not have a soild understanding of how God views homosexuals and treat some with hated...which is not God's way. People get confused because they don't understand God's plan and what the OT is really all about. Not to say that I fully understand everything either...but I keep on searching for the truth in the pages. But it should be understood by both those inside and outside the church that Christ does not want us to physically harm anyone because of there personal sin. Jesus did not teach that. He taught we where to love one another. God is a tolerant God. If he was not...we would all be dead.

But you do bring up an intresting point when you asked when I would start caring out "God's will" and killing such people. I listed those who have intercource with children...I would like to know where you stand on this? Some people think capital punishment would be a sutible payment for those who commit such acts. Where do you stand on capital punishment? Perhaps you do not think it is even wrong to have realtions with children? I understand one of the great freedoms of being an athiest is that you can define your own sence of write and wrong. So I wonder...how do you feel about the child brothels that exsit in our world? And indeed...when is it right to stop another human from doing somthing through force? Murder is wrong...and the bible teachs that. But what do you think? Is there ever a time when murder is right? What about killing in self defence? What about war? What about theft? What about abortions?
There was a race of primate people in the Amazon in early to mid 20th century who used wait until a child is born...to see the sex, and if it was not desirble the father would beat it to death with a stick. Christian missionarys put a stop to this practice...was that wrong of them to interfer with another culture? To interfer with another persons world view and thoughts on morality? Who defines right and wrong, good and evil? It can get very confusing, but God's word brings clarity to those who read it with the aid of the Holy Spirit. I will say that with out God's restraint and the guidince of the Bible I would have killed in my life time. The bible, a book spoken againt often here, saved a close friends of mine from death at my hands.

And then there are those who point out the bad things the church has done in it's histroy. Every nation has been involved in questionable actions. Would you stop being American because they went to war against the British? They killed people you know...to earn their freedom.
Instead you most likely would try to be a better American today. It's the same with Christians.

Why not look at the positve things the Body of Christ has done in every culture it has touched?
People say that the Church is anti-woman but the truth is after the coming of Christ women recieved more and more rights. Even ancient roman pagan scholors agree that the coming of Chritianty was a turning point for the freedom and dignity of women. Christian missionarys today are still fighting for the rights of women and others in countries where those rights are supressed.
Human sacrifice has been put to stop in many places because of Christ. Is this not a good thing? Cultures are destroyed, relgions and human digity shattered, but evil is put to a stop also.
I'm not agreeing with eveything that the christians have done, nor am I saying that the church or even me are perfect in any way, just that we are not evil and dangerous fanitcs which must be stopped. And also that we can still choose today to follow a God who is good and perfect and do what is good by living by the Spirit of God. We can change. We can be better. I belive we should change. If I took the advise of some well meaning humans who said: "Just be yourself" I would be a real bad dude.
So I have not attained perfection but I press on towards the goal, I keep fighing, and I will never give up.

And I invite you to be open minded that there is way to have a personal relationship with God.

CC wrote:
"I simply want to state that if there are those out there who struggle with perversion, whether it be directed at children, animals, or the same sex, ect, and want to be free of it they can be and can experince more joy and happiness as they draw closer to God."

How dare you call homosexuality a perversion? And how dare you compare it to bestiality and child abuse. Are you a psychologist? Obviously not because the American Psychological Association does not view homosexuality as a mental disorder needing to be treated.

You base your opinion on your "bible." SCREW YOU!

You, and people like you, are the reason I left your F***ed up cult.

mygel,
I stated clearly that if you did not want what I was offering than you did not have to take it.

Now you are trying to say that you prayed to be free and did not get that freedom so what I am saying does not work. But it does work and has worked.
You have to have to right mind set. If you only wanted to be straight out of fear of man to please man you where doing it for the wrong reasons and God won't honor that. You said yourself you where comfortable with being gay. Once again, if you want to be gay, I can't help you. I can only help those who struggle with thoughts they don't want to have. Those who want to free.

And don't say that is wrong of me to want to help someone who wants help. It's not. If you want to be gay I won't force my God upon you. But if you want to be freed from homosexuality than I am more than willing and happy to help.
But in the end think people just want to be loved and cared for by someone. I find that love in God and it is a love that will never fail. Human realtionshios fail because people are imperfect, but God is always faithful.
Sorry if I offended you.

mygel,
you take offence where now is meant. I do not mean to insult you. You think because I say homosexulity is wrong that I am saying you as a person are without worth. But that's not it. Sexual perfernce does not difine who you are. THere is so much more to you than being gay or black or white or tall or short or having a intrest in cars or liking chocolate. These are just part of the things that make you up. I am not intrest in you as a whole, human. As a created being of God who has value. And you do have worth in God's eyes and mine and you are worth saving, praying for, dieing for and talking too.
So don't think I am trying to attack you or any friends of your because you are gay.

I have friends that are gay, I have relative who are gay, and I love them and care about them. But I have to speak the truth because if I don't I'm not realling helping this people. I hope you can belive that I am sincere.
God Bless.

"I hope you can belive..."

I believe you're sincere—deluded, but sincere.

Nothing to fear but fear itself! FDR

CC said (to Asuryan, I think) "Because I belive you can still be saved and I want that for you even though I do not know you. Why do you hate me for caring?"

CC, please consider this. I care about you. For that reason, I'm going to try to help you. The way I wish to help you is to get you to see that you are under the spell of religion. Your religion is really a fairly pernicious meme (a "thought virus", if you will), that thrives because it thwarts competing memes (by blocking critical thinking), and replicates itself (through proselytizing). For some people it has some beneficial side effects, but for the most part this meme exists because it's a good replicator, not because it reflects reality in any meaningful sense, and probably not because it confers any great advantages to individuals or society. In my experience, those who rid themselves of such parasites are generally better off in the long run, and I posit that society as a whole benefits.

So, we're in an odd situation here, aren't we? You would like to change my thinking (by spreading your religious memes to my brain), and I would like to change your thinking (by planting an critical thinking memes in your brain). How should we proceed in this battle of memes?

Let me start by telling you my strategy. As my meme thrives in the presence of memes for science, self examination, logic, debate, etc., and those things are typically anathema to religious memes, I'm going to start by urging to you to ground your assertions in observable and verifiable phenomena. For example, when you make assertions such as "The relationship teaching does not come from man but from God through his Bible", I'm going to ask you to examine them closely with me, and see if there is anything that we might objectively observe about the world that could count as evidence for it. In particular, what is true about the world that supports your idea that there is a god, and that the Bible is somehow her book? You see, if I can get you in the habit of asking such basic questions as those, you will be much more receptive to other memes that (I claim) are healthier for you, because they will help you to rid yourself of various parasites that thrive in and promote credulity.

So, what's your strategy going to be? How can do you think your religious memes can get a foothold in my brain?

Hey CC thanks so much for bringing out the best in my Atheist brothers and sisters. The harder and more thorougly a Christian tries to bring home their point, the more thoroughly those rediculous points are refuted. It's people like yourself who really rile them up(the real brains of this operation) and get them to post their best stuff, thus reinforceing how right we are with our non-belief. One more thing, I'd be willing to bet the story about the tribe that beat their babies to death is Bullshit.

Hey Jim. Well said.
My tactics are simple. Seek God for yourself through Jesus his son. And when you find him you will know he is real.

That's it.

But maybe you can help me with a little problem.
I have seen things which are not thought to be possible by many. I have seen people who are possessed by demons and then seen those demons cast out in the name of Jesus, I've seen people who have been healed from various illness after being prayed for, and I have seen my own personal prayers answered innumerable times, I have seen angels with my own physical eyes, I have been attacked by demons physicaly on a number of occassions, and I have felt somthing inside me which I can only describe as "gold" and very real, which was depostied in my inner being after prayer to God. I have wittnessed many things that concur with the Bible's account. In fact as I study the bible more I find greater understanding on things I was previsouly confused about. I know many other Christians whom I trust that have experinced similar things. I know of many people outside the church that I also trust who have wintness supernatural phenomenom on differnt occasions. Which leads me to belive that there is more to the world than what we typical see.
You have the liberty of disbeliving me...of cource. I do not have that liberty since I have witnessed these things with my own eyes and felt them and touched them myself. Can you explain to me what I have seen? Or will use simply state that I am being untruthful so you can avoid having to enter a debate you can not possible win.
Intrestingly enough, I have heard theories that quamtum physicists claim there are alternative dimensions and such. So