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encouraging ex-Christians
Letters from Visitors to ExChristian.Net and Replies.
Thank you so much for the chance of adressing you.
My name is Paul and I've been viewing your website for about six years and your format is very impressive. I will be upfront with you I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have belonged to Him for the last ten years.
I've read a lot of your articles and the many different comments of those post here. Of course we are both at odds with each other theologically, however I do respect your sincerity and your logical way of thinking. I will not aproach you and your fellow Exchrists as some Christians do.
I won't blast in here saying "I will pray for all of you" if I do happen to pray for any of you I don't need to tell you that. From reading your writings I see you do understand the essentials of Biblical Chriistianity. The problems I do have with the site is that a lot of the testimonies and the posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically.
I do blame moderm churches for giving wrong views of following Jesus. Many say "try Jesus" and He'll give you a happy life, a fulfilled marraige, a good job and other empty promisies. I am not saying your testimony, but must of the ones I read are people looking for self fulfilling lives in Jesus, and He never promised this. He said to deny your whole life, take up your cross(be willing to die) and follow Him. I would rather they all say this is not for them instead of using these things to say God isn't real.
Then when some try to act logical they bring up things like "look at all the killing in the Old testiment" but all that proves is that one disagrees with God's actions, but you can't use that to say God dose not exist. Using examples like the spanish inqusitions, the crusades and the holocaust to prove Christianity isn't true is kind of pointless, because it depends on the angle you are looking at from. When I view these events I see the evil of the Roman Catholic church and I remember the Apostle Peter said about false teachers "through them the Way of Truth shall be evil spoken of." What also bothers me is that the posters act as if there no good and rational counter arguments to their views, and acting as though only a complete idiot would follow Christ.
I just want you to know that none of this is out of anger, I used to be an athiest and a lot of my present friends are athiests. I can assure you that my conversion to Christ was not emotional, but years of probing through all the world's religions, world views and philosophies and of course God's sovreign grace.
I encourge all my christian friend to read your site and understand how an exchristian thinks, though I don't think there is such a thing as an exchristian, I believe everyone on this site is sincere and was very close to the things of Chist, but it's those who endure to the end that are true christians, as hebrews 10:38-39 says "NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION: BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." I would like to hear from you on these things and I thank you for your time.
My name is Paul and I've been viewing your website for about six years and your format is very impressive. I will be upfront with you I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have belonged to Him for the last ten years.
I've read a lot of your articles and the many different comments of those post here. Of course we are both at odds with each other theologically, however I do respect your sincerity and your logical way of thinking. I will not aproach you and your fellow Exchrists as some Christians do.
I won't blast in here saying "I will pray for all of you" if I do happen to pray for any of you I don't need to tell you that. From reading your writings I see you do understand the essentials of Biblical Chriistianity. The problems I do have with the site is that a lot of the testimonies and the posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically.
I do blame moderm churches for giving wrong views of following Jesus. Many say "try Jesus" and He'll give you a happy life, a fulfilled marraige, a good job and other empty promisies. I am not saying your testimony, but must of the ones I read are people looking for self fulfilling lives in Jesus, and He never promised this. He said to deny your whole life, take up your cross(be willing to die) and follow Him. I would rather they all say this is not for them instead of using these things to say God isn't real.
Then when some try to act logical they bring up things like "look at all the killing in the Old testiment" but all that proves is that one disagrees with God's actions, but you can't use that to say God dose not exist. Using examples like the spanish inqusitions, the crusades and the holocaust to prove Christianity isn't true is kind of pointless, because it depends on the angle you are looking at from. When I view these events I see the evil of the Roman Catholic church and I remember the Apostle Peter said about false teachers "through them the Way of Truth shall be evil spoken of." What also bothers me is that the posters act as if there no good and rational counter arguments to their views, and acting as though only a complete idiot would follow Christ.
I just want you to know that none of this is out of anger, I used to be an athiest and a lot of my present friends are athiests. I can assure you that my conversion to Christ was not emotional, but years of probing through all the world's religions, world views and philosophies and of course God's sovreign grace.
I encourge all my christian friend to read your site and understand how an exchristian thinks, though I don't think there is such a thing as an exchristian, I believe everyone on this site is sincere and was very close to the things of Chist, but it's those who endure to the end that are true christians, as hebrews 10:38-39 says "NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION: BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." I would like to hear from you on these things and I thank you for your time.
Considering how long you have alledgedly been following this site, it's hard to take you seriously when you suggest that most people here have left Christianity for emotional reasons. Maybe you need to reread this site, but this time leave off your "christian lenses".
Maybe you can answer a question for me--an ex-christian, by the way, not necessarily an athiest, but getting close: I am puzzled about this whole "burning in the lake of fire" for all eternity thing. As far as I am aware, our physical bodies rot away after death. That means no more eyes, ears, nerve endings, skin, etc. Yet, in hell we're going to burn forever. How is this possible? What kind of new physical body would withstand constant burning for eternity? Will we be like Superman--alive but impenetrable?
You sound like a well-informed person, can you help to demystify this for me?
You miss the point so badly. No one says that because in the Old Testament there are versions of God that are nothing less than evil -- is proof that God does not exist. If there is a God, this is simply evidence from your own book that it is evil by definition.
The reason why many of us don't believe that God exists is because there is no proof. The Bible doesn't prove God's existence or disprove it. The Bible is just an irrelevant book of fiction in terms of proving anything, but very relevant in terms of what is wrong with the world today.
Christianity has always promoted fiction over fact. I presume people of your ilk would like to take us back to the golden age of faith, i.e., the 14th century. No thanks.
Steve
Like most all christians I know, if anything that anyone says, if does not back up scripture or come from a preacher, whatever is said, it has absolutely no merrit or validitity to the christian, it does not matter how logical it may seem or appear, if it does not come from within the Bible or a preacher, it is regarded as total rubbish to a Christian.
Paul you are so brainwashed, because you've allowed it to happen to you, it has nothing to do with truth or proof, it has all to do with Paul, and had you been raised in Iraq, you would be a full fledged Muslim right now, and you can sit there and deny this fact all day long but Paul has found his religion and No one or No thing that anyone says to Paul, is going to change Paul's mind as long as he lives.
Paul you've lost all communication with the logical realistic world, so just enjoy the rest of your life living in the Jesus mind fog and religion.
I'm sure you go around all day long playing hymns and repeating scripture in your head, and you're wondering what you can do next to make someone think that you're a good little Christian.
I used to do the same thing, and now people wonder why I do not shower them with praise and gifts to make them think that I am a good little Christian, I used to go to peoples houses and work and they would try to pay me, But No!!! I would not take any money, I wanted them to think I was a good little Christian, what a friggin fool I was! I quit people pleasing over 15 years ago.
Thats all Christians are, is people pleasers, God pleasers, Jesus pleasers, preacher pleasers.
Jesus was a people pleaser, thats why he was so willing to die, either to please God or his ignorant followers.
The same with you Paul, grow up and quit people pleasing, but you do not want to.
We just don't feel the need, to smoke what you smoke when you read the Bible, is that ok?
If you think the Roman Catholics got it wrong, then maybe you could also start by not feverishly quoting that silly book of fantasy they pulled together and edited for your enjoyment. Maybe start looking a little harder into the stuff they decided you should never get your hands on, because you'll realize all that 'other' fiction about Jesus by 'other' disciples is equally as credible as your own precious book. The Catholics just did a good job of homogenizing and keeping out the diverse, conflicting theological opinions about Jesus throughout the earliest Christian communities, so they alone could dispense the "approved" doctrine.
Maybe look a little bit into why the Jews have no reason whatsoever to believe this 'Jesus' hero Christians are all gaga about was any kind of messiah. I think I'll believe a Jew before I'll believe some flushed and excited Christian who claims to have superior knowledge of what is really meant by "Messiah," and Messianic prophecy, in Judaism.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html
Also, take a good long look at the other Jesuses, as well as all the virgin-born gods / god-men of salvation that the major cultures prior to and during Jesus' time were literally swimming in. Jesus is just another 2000 year old pagan salvation-hero legend, competing with all the others that were already around, and made to the order of the day. Your religion is only now big and special because Roman-Catholic Christianity was officialized by an Emporer long ago, won the power game, and took it upon itself to make sure dissenters were destroyed.
Maybe look at a few little facts, just for kicks, and put aside YOUR emotional addiction for awhile.
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/
From your excuse for a posting, let me isolate one line:
"Then when some try to act logical they bring up things like 'look at all the killing in the old testament' but all that proves is that one disagrees with god's actions, but you can't use that to say that god does not exist.
You fool.
What in hell do you mean, "act logical". You idiot. You simple-minded little shit. We react in disgust and horror when we read the bloodshed and genocide of your jew god, and you call it "acting logical", as though it was mere academic pretence.
And you are fucking-A right that we disagree with you god's actions. Your jew god belongs back in the fucking bronze age where he came from, and if you believe in him, you belong back there yourself.
About the existence of your god: I do not give two flying fucks into hell if your god exists or not, but I would rather be in that hell than bend my knee to him.
Thank you for not "blasting in here", to borrow your phrasing. It does get tiresome. All the same, being a pretentious windbag comes naturally to me, so I have a few comments. :)
"The problems I do have with the site is that a lot of the testimonies and the posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically."
Without a doubt many of the testimonies are emotional. There is often a feeling of frustration, pain, and a sense of loss that accompanies the casting off of once firmly held beliefs. It's never easy to do, regardless of what brought a person to this point.
That does not, however, mean that critical analysis or rational thinking is absent. Perhaps you are zeroing in on the emotional aspects in order to reconcile our choice to your worldview? After all, from the Christian's point-of-view those who leave the faith do so out of rebellion or dissatisfaction with the lifestyle (both emotional ideas).
"I do blame moderm churches for giving wrong views of following Jesus."
I'm sure you do. Like nearly every Christian visitor, you have the sense that the denizens of this site have simply not experienced "true" Christianity. As long as you have lurked, surely you must realize how ridiculous that sounds to us.
When I joined the army, we were informed that basic training wasn't the "real" army. During my first tour overseas, I was informed that this wasn't the "real" army either. From assignment to assignment, I never found anyone who considered their present location to be the "real" army. The point is that what one considered to be the "real" army was a subjective matter and never clearly defined.
It's the same with Christianity. Since all sects and denominations are based on the convoluted text of the Bible mixed with a variety of traditions, they all get it right, and none of them do. It is this paradox that makes the claim of "true" Christianity appear foolish.
"...when some try to act logical they bring up things like "look at all the killing in the Old testiment" but all that proves is that one disagrees with God's actions..."
It's very easy to question the morality of God's actions in the OT. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the bloodthirsty nature of your God as depicted therein.
Speaking only for myself, I have yet to see a persuasive argument that sufficiently justifies many of God's bloodier crimes. Blaming the victim is the most popular among Christians. Are you numbered among the "blame the victim" crowd?
"Using examples like the spanish inqusitions[sic], the crusades and the holocaust to prove Christianity isn't true is kind of pointless, because it depends on the angle you are looking at from."
It's not to prove Christianity isn't true, but that it is wrong and dangerous. Religions in general - Christianity included - have caused more bloodshed and suffering than nearly all secular ideologies combined.
"What also bothers me is that the posters act as if there no good and rational counter arguments to their views, and acting as though only a complete idiot would follow Christ."
It's easy to proceed as if there are no good counter arguments because experience has shown that there are none. If you feel there are good and rational counter arguments to our views, why don't you post them?
As to the second part of your statement, that's unfortunately true. There are plenty of otherwise rational, competent, intelligent, and well-meaning folks who share your faith. But, based on the content of the majority of posts here by Christian authors, this reaction is perhaps understandable?
"I can assure you that my conversion to Christ was not emotional, but years of probing through all the world's religions, world views and philosophies and of course God's sovreign[sic] grace."
After studying the world's religions, you settled on Christianity as the path for you. Great! If it feeds your need for comfort and makes you a better person, fine. If it makes you into a judgmental, hateful, ill-informed bigot, however...well, I'm sure you know how well that would go over here.
Frankly, to me there is no logical, rational reason to follow Christ that doesn't involve an emotional component. From a purely logical, analytical, and rational standpoint Christianity just doesn't hold water. Even the phrase "God's sovereign grace" is laden with emotion. But I'm curious, and if you have examples please share them.
"I encourge all my christian friend to read your site and understand how an exchristian thinks..."
Good! Maybe some of them will seek answers, if they read with open minds.
Ok, I'm done sounding off.
Love and kisses...
In general, for him to be god, we accept the following description.
1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. God is all powerful
These points are balabored both in the NT and by most Christian groups.
It's utter bullshit; the three points cannot peacefully co-exist when we take the history of humanity into account.
It is virtually impossible for god to be all loving, because he allows so much suffering and pain in the world. If he was all loving, wouldn't that mean that he wouldn't want anyone to suffer? Instead, he murdered his own son! And hey, if he's all powerful, why does he allow things to suck so much and for people to be so mean? Why does he allow such atrocities to take place in his name? If he loves us, why does he want so many of us to burn for all eternity in a place we hear he created? Well, maybe he can't fix these things. Whoa, that means he's not all powerful! Well, maybe he doesn't know about them . . . oops, no, that negates him being all knowing.
I can hear the rumblings of the free will argument.
Piss on it.
If god is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving, then there is no such thing as free will. If he is all powerful, he guides the path of your life. Even if he did give you choices, however, he's all knowing, and therefore knows what you will choose. He could save you, with his all-lovingness, but he would rather stand aside and watch you continue on your merry way. Why did this all powerful, all loving, all knowing guy create you to be so fucked up that you will burn for all eternity?
'Cause if there is a god, he's a hateful, paranoid, cruel, bi-polar, schitzoid asshole who gains pleasure from seeing the very people he has created spend eternity in misery, waiting eagerly to see if anyone will get into his sooper secret special club, and ha ha on all the morons he gets burn until they're crispy-fried.
Yeah, can I please believe in that dick?
Have you heard of Occam's Razor? It's the proposition that the simplest solution is often the correct solution.
What makes sense? The existence of the above-mentioned Universal Psychopath, or that there is no god?
And frankly, I would rather burn that worship something so fundamentally cruel and hateful.
And as for Christians who say that the Inqusitions and the Crusades were all a Roman Catholic thing, that does not excuse your religion. Catholics are Christians, period. And Christians have just as cheerily condemned their fellow humans to death. Remember all those Puritans who escaped England to escape religious persecution? What was that, Mr. Native American?
Salem Witch Trials.
Jonestown.
Branch Dividians.
Westboro Basptist Church.
All Christians, Christians, Christians! So lay off the fucking Catholic church.
Hi geek. Always good to hear your voice.
"The posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically."
Are you being serious? The whole reason I have never bought into religion in the first place is because of my analytical mind. I wanted to believe so bad, and I wanted this Jesus guy to be real, but the part of my brain responsible for common sense, kept on saying to my conscious mind, "Bullshit" "Bullshit." Mr. Paul I would believe with all of my heart if only I was given one little teeny, tinny, ever so small shread of evidence that the God of the Bible is real. Tell me what I can do Paul. Should I go in a closet for a week and pray? If I do what do I look for to know he is real? A tingle in my leg? An all powerful supreme being should be able to let us know he is here.
I always love it when a Christain comes in from the angle, "I used to be an Athesit just like you." As if we are going to go, "Wow this guy might have something here that we have never heard. He may just have the real key to proving God is real" Paul I think once you become an "Enlightened Atheist," as most of us are here. There is no going back, not even in a foxhole, unless this so called second coming actually does occur.
Have a good day.
Bill
I personally point to the OT atrocities as proof that biblegod is not worth worshipping, and that he is human rather than deity. When people behave that way they get the electric chair, for the good of society. When God acts that way you fall on your knees. Scary.
How about a bad case of the gas..lmao!! Praise the LARD I feel Jesus in my tummy...ouch shit that hurts!
You know Paul started off by sounding intellectual-intellegente but boy oh boy did he suck in the end. The idiot thinks there is something wrong with us not wanting to be a part of his blood cult.
Thanks for telling us that.
:>(
Welcome to ExChristian.net, keep coming back because it works to cure irrational thinking and beliefs!
Why should non-Christians oblige you by putting themselves in your neat little apologetic stereotypes? I mean, I know this is how the Bible explains unconversion, but obviously, we don't believe the Bible otherwise we would be cowering before a sadistic Biblegod too, get it?
YOU SAY: "all that proves is that one disagrees with God's actions, but you can't use that to say God dose not exist. "
Or, they may conclude that the Bible is an unreliable piece of evidence for the Black Spider that does the things the Bible says he does.
YOU SAY: "When I view these events I see the evil of the Roman Catholic church."
The speed with which Christians turn on and eat eachother, denouncing them as not TrueBelievers* is always breathtaking to behold. Of course, when you postulate that Christians are somehow more virtuous then non-Christians, contrary evidence forces the observer to place more and more BibleBots into the "Not true Christian" category. What a pleasant community of moral growth.
YOU SAY: "and of course God's sovreign grace."
Oh great, a Calvinist in our midst. Does somebody have the rabies vaccine or straight jacket?
I've been following this site for only about three months, but it was evident to me from Day 1 that most of the people here who identify themselves as exchristians left the cult after much analytic thought, research, study, and self-examination -- just the opposite of emotionalism. Of course, that doesn't mean they cannot or should not get emotional when recounting the abuses they suffered previously while they were christians, or in discussing the harm that christianity continues to inflict.
You indicate that you became a christian after conducting a similar process of study and logical thought, which I find equally hard to believe (and I find that statement about you "belonging" to Jesus kind of creepy, to be honest). But, if there's any truth to your comments, please explain how you made a RATIONAL decision to become a christian. That means providing a reason other than saying something like you believe because the bible tells you so, or because of the feeling (EMOTION) you get from being a member-in-good-standing with jesus, or just that you believe based on "faith." I want rational, analytical evidence to convince me that you're right and we're wrong. The ball's in your court.
It is so great to hear another voice of passion and incredible intellectual reasoning. I've been an atheist since I was 14 but your words convinced me that I really want to open my heart to let Jesus in. I feel filled with the Holy Spirit!
After reading your testimony, I went and got my Bible and started reading. Boy, what a great book! My heart is filled with pity for the poor atheists here that will surely burn in the lake of everlasting fire.
I do have a question for you though, you mentioned that The Roman Catholic church is not the true way to God. This made me think that some of the other thousands of denominations might not be the path to our Lord either. How do I determine which one is right? I'm pretty confused and overwhelmed. I'd appreciate some help from you.
One thing that I was so pleased to read in the Bible is that God can change his mind. The flood was an important event. All those men women and children were such sinners they deserved drowning, but God in his infinite grace for humanity restored us from Noah's loins. The other place where God changed his mind was when he went from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Praise be to God. Salvation is at hand.
My conversion to the ways of God has made me realize how sad it is that the people on this site are doomed to an everlasting death by fire. Contrast that with trillions of years of harp music and worshipping our God and I'm sure you know that salvation is the only way to go.
Now that my heart is filled with the love of God, of his only son and of the spirit - I can speak to others with the knowledge that if I can only save but one soul my work is done.
OK here goes...
Alright all you atheist fuckers, God loves your sorry asses and is waiting patiently for your worship. Down on your knees!
Brigid - honey you better shape up and fly right. God doesn't have any use for foul mouthed bitches like you. I know this because I am filled with the spirit. Praise Jesus!
Patricia you too are on a one way trip to toastville. God is everything, everywhere and he knows what you're doing. You'd better be nice and not naughty or you will be struck down.
All you atheists are surely going to roast in Hell unless you get down on your fucking knees and spend the rest of your days kissing God's holy ass. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and saviour and I will be laughing at you from heaven where I will be listening to harp music and kissing God's - I mean worshipping our loving God.
Yours in Christ - LambOGod (Formerly BoyGod666)
I do agree with you that, what I think, real christianity is about self-improvement. Of taking up your own cross and leaving all that does not work for you as an individual behind. Christianity should not be about sitting down and letting Jesus wait on you hand and foot. It should be about getting up, and walking the path with Jesus walking beside you.
My own beliefs is that we are here on earth to grow, evolve, and become better individuals. It's about self-growth and self-evolution into a higher and grander vision of who you are. You do that by exploring, questioning, experimenting, learning, and finding a path that works for you.
If christianity is that path for you, then use it. My path is individual spirituality. Christianity does not work for me, but apparently it works for you.
As long as you are seeking to grow and evolve as an individual, then that's fine. If a system of belief is playing to your ego, then perhaps it isn't working for you.
That was absolutely brilliant!!!
I too converted back to the bloodthirsty cult and is now worshiping that murderous son of a bitch Yahweh, or is it El or Jehovah. Oh, don’t matter, they are gods and that’s what counts.
I was raised in a muslem country I would argue for Islam. The only problem with this is when my family lovingly invited me to Christianity I fully rejected it. The way I judge a religion like Islam is to go right to the founder. I don't decide Islam is wrong the some people do by bringing up terrorizm and the missdeeds of the followers. I look at the man himself. Mohammed most likely had epilepsy, he had private experiences a cave without any witnesses, he himself thought at first it was all demonic, then his wife and sister in law convinced him it was
God, mohammed got most of his imformation from travelling jews and christians and confused Biblical events in the process, he did no miracles or fulfulling prophices to establish his claims. I did this with all religions and they all fell short. Someone said jewish position on the Messiah is more convincing then my position. Please understand that christianity is not a gentile religion, John the baptist, Mary, joseph, anna, simeon, elizabeth, zachariah, the 12 apostles, the 70 disciples, the thousans during Jesus' ministry, the 500 hundred at His Resurrection, the 120 at the upper room, the 3,000 at pentecoast, the 5,000 after that and all the christians in the first years of the church were all jewish! Many were Pharasies, sadducess, priests, zealots, hellenists, poor, rich, and every class of jews. They were from Jerusalem, all Israel and other nations. They all had jewish teaching and upbringing and turn to Jesus as Messiah. You must understand that moderm judaism is not pure Old testament Hebrewism. Today's judaism is rabbinic/pharasaic/talmudic judaism and the same judaism of Moses. Though moderm jews hold in high view the hebrew scriptures the TALMUD is what a lot thier central beliefs come from. THey even say that jews who don't except the talmud as inspired as the Scriptures as heretics, such as the Karaite jews, who have been percecuted by talmudic jews. The scriptures christians hold as messianic were also held by ancient jews as being the same. It was rabbi Rashi in the twelve century who said Isaiah 53 was about Israel, all his conteptaries still saw the messiah there, just not Jesus as the fulfillment. The hebrew Scriptures do not speak against the possibility of a divine/human Messiah, but the talmud dose. the tradition of the elders that Jesus and many jewish teachers spoke against became over time the oral law(talmud). Isaiah the prophet said these people draw nigh to me with thier lips, but thier heart is far from me, they teach the commandments of men. Christianity is incompatble with the talmud, but not the hebrew Bible. I am not saying all this proves christiany, but I think it comes close. Thanks for time and hope to hear your response. your friend paul.
2. The scriptures are the inerrant word of God, written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Questions:
1. The idea of eternal torture and damnation?
2. The need for a salvation plan?
3. Why aren’t the gospels consistent with each other since they were inspired?
4. Is there freewill in heaven?
Attempted answers:
#1. If God has the ability to do whatever it pleases than why can’t it un-create, or cast to another area or realm the souls of the unsaved people. Possibly somewhere that is neutral. Why does it find it necessary to torture these souls for eternity, and what is the benefit? It doesn’t have to if it is omnipotent. The only answer that is plausible is because it wants to, for its own pleasure, if it has to it is not omnipotent, and if it wants to it is not omni benevolent.
#2. If I die with a sin on my soul (unsaved), why can’t I be in the presence of God? If it is impossible for God to be in the presence of sin it is not omnipotent. If it needs a mediator (Jesus) to die for the sins of mankind in order for it to allow them into its presence, than it is bound by an external law. Something that it cannot control, or has any influence over. The sin is more powerful than God. If sin can be in Gods presence, but God cannot be in the presence of sin, God is the weaker of the two.
#3. Many people have tried to explain away the inconsistencies in the gospels. One of the more popular euphemisms is “its like four witnesses to a car accident, they all saw the same thing but just explain it a little different”. The writing of the gospels is not like witnessing a car accident, it is more like taking dictation from a single witness and writing down exactly what is dictated. If the writers of the gospels were free to change what the Holy Spirit had inspired them to write, then the gospels are the inaccurate works of man. If the writers scribed accurately than the Holy Spirit could not recall the events without error, it is not omnipotent.
#4. If there is no evil or sin in heaven, then God has taken away part of our ability to make choices. If we have no other choice but to obey and enjoy worshipping God, then what pleasure does it get out of it? If we choose not to worship then have we sinned? If we cannot choose, then we are no different than a robot. Do we have the ability to remember our life on earth? If we do then we will know about sin, and if we know about sin (the other choice) than sin is present in heaven, at least in thought. If we cannot remember our lives on earth, then what was the purpose, why didn’t it just create heaven to begin with? If the purpose was a test to see if we were worthy, it already knew, if it didn’t than it is not omnipotent.
Your Pal,
Farris
Listen, shit-for-brains, before you learn to argue, you first have to learn to listen to yourself. Your postings are nonsense. Example:
You say you are not proceeding by blind faith, but rather by a humble trust in the bible god, natural revelation and special revelation through scripture. That is still blind faith, dummy.
Also try to see that you argue your religion by a supposition of the bible's truth ahead of time.Example:
Your appeal to the large number of jews who became christians; the thousands during his ministry; the 500 at his resurrection; the 3000 at pentecost, and so on. None of us here assumes that these figures are anywhere near accurate.
Finally, you say there is a good argument for the god of the bible.
We're waiting.
"The way I judge a religion like Islam is to go right to the founder. I don't decide Islam is wrong the some people do by bringing up terrorizm and the missdeeds of the followers. I look at the man himself. Mohammed most likely had epilepsy, he had private experiences a cave without any witnesses, he himself thought at first it was all demonic, then his wife and sister in law convinced him it was
God, mohammed got most of his imformation from travelling jews and christians and confused Biblical events in the process, he did no miracles or fulfulling prophices to establish his claims. I did this with all religions and they all fell short."
If I may comment on this...
I don't believe in judging people or things (doesn't the bible say judge not, lest ye be judged? I couldn't help but notice that you say you judge religion). Granted, it's hard not to do it, but I try.
Anyway, your approach of looking at the founder of a faith is an interesting one, and i've done that with Jesus.
Doing a historical search for Jesus (not taking into account the mythology), one can come to the conclusion that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet who believed the end of the world was literally around the corner, and he had a special role to play in ushering it in. He believed it would come within his generation...which it did not.
If one looks at pre-christian figures of religion and belief systems, one can find a number of striking similarities between these godmen. They are usually the son of God, they are here to teach, they are betrayed, die, come back to life, then ascend to heaven, and will come back at a later date. There are lots, and I mean lots, of godmen who share these traits.
Looking over these ancient Godmen, it became apparent to me that the chances of Jesus's followers adapting these beliefs to thier stories about Jesus were very high. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that an enormous amount of Jesus's life is mythology added on by his followers.
As for your idea about there not being any real problems or contradictions, many, many, many people will not agree with you. For example, is God a sinner? (Exodus 34:14, and Gal 5:19-20). As a person who just looks at the bible without any apologenic ideas, there are contradictions and errors in it.
And as for phrophecy...well, the more I look into it, the less and less credible the prophecy claim becomes. For example, there is a prophecy in Issiah that after Israel has risen again (or something to that matter), lions will eat grass (at least, I think that's what they eat) and children shall stick thier hands into viper nests. Also, Issiah predicts that the river of egypt (the nile) will dry up. Needless to say, it diddn't happen. Most of the prophecies that refer to Jesus were, from my readings, picked at random from parts of the old testamet. Take a look at this page to see how that worked (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god23.htm).
Thanks for the compliments but is this the same Paul who wrote the original post or someone who picked up the torch? The writing style is much harder to follow and the text contains many more spelling/grammatical errors than in the first post. Spell check works wonders, whoever you are, as does forming paragraphs with coherent themes. But I digress.
"I don't know if you would all except [sic] this line of reasoning, but I trully [sic] believe that God has structured the universe in such a way that an athiest [sic] in a purely logical and scientific way argue for thier [sic] view."
Not to be disrespectful, but I don't know that I can even follow your argument here, much less accept it. Please clarify! Perhaps you meant:
"I don't know if you would all accept this line of reasoning, but I truly believe that God has structured the universe in such a way that an atheist [can] -in a purely logical and scientific way - argue for their view."
If so, it appears you are saying that God structured "logic" and "science" into the universe. Innocuous enough. What idea do you want us to understand?
Or, perhaps you are saying that God structured atheists into the universe for the purpose of posing a logical counter-argument for His existence. Confusing idea, and also mildly offensive. Again, what idea do you want us to understand?
"I believe also He has provided enough evidence [that] a person could by reason, faith and love turn to God."
The fact that millions do turn to God for answers would seem to validate this idea. However, "evidence" has a different meaning to a Christian than it does to a skeptic. Thus, I can't agree to this proposition.
"Not by "blind faith" but a humble trust in the God of Scripture through the natural revelation of creation and the special revelation of Holy Writ."
This is a contradictory statement, though you probably don't see it that way.
What you term as the "natural revelation of creation" has another entirely different (although admittedly incomplete) explanation. Theistic evolution seems to resolve the (false) dichotomy between faith and science, so I will accept without further argument that this is what you mean by not relying on blind faith alone, although I maintain that the mechanisms of evolution do not require deity.
Whether scripture is the result of "special revelation" or not is another matter. This does indeed require blind faith in what is commonly called the "internal evidence" of the Bible itself (see 2 Tim. 3:16 and Mark 13:31 for scripture testimony, here for a defense, and here for a refutation of the idea).
"I also understand from the Bible that God does not invade our physical universe in such a way that the athiest is trapted [sic] [in]to admit[ting] God's existence."
If there is a power that exists beyond space and time, and is in some way responsible for this universal mess, then I would agree that God does not intervene (i.e, such a being would be neutral). Of course, this introduces all sorts of other problems for the Christian that needn't be addressed just now.
"Now, are there problems in the Bible? Yes, but not in the way of absolute contradictions, falsehoods or deception."
See this article for reasons why this statement is wrong. It may not be the best I've seen, but it's the most accessible from where I am right now.
"Please understand that christianity is not a gentile religion, John the baptist, Mary, joseph, anna, simeon, elizabeth, zachariah, the 12 apostles, the 70 disciples, the thousan[d]s during Jesus' ministry, the 500 hundred at His Resurrection, the 120 at the upper room, the 3,000 at pentecoast, the 5,000 after that and all the christians in the first years of the church were all jewish!"
This does not support your argument. It is a fact of history that Christianity did not become popular until the Gentiles became believers. The Jewish people in general did not accept the message of the gospels, or Jesus as their Messiah.
Whether today's Judaism is the same as ancient Judaism is a matter for Jewish scholars, Rabbis, and historians. It has no bearing on the validity of your faith with regard to this discussion.
To be blunt, if this post represents the substance of why you believe there is logical and rational evidence for a belief in God, I'm afraid it doesn't appear to be too convincing.
Heres a guy who a least tries to make a serious post, although I can see where he was inadequate, and the posters almost uniformly spit on him
Brigid was classic, the anti Jewish cunt.
Paul, these people hate your guts and they hate Christians...don't kid yourself.
We need to work politically to make sure these kind don't get control over us.
We has seen what happens when atheists run a society, my parents escaped, being severly diabled in the process form an atheist inspired dictatorship.
Do not expect any quarter from these people, none will be given.
They are quite serious when they call you a fool and a shit.
But you are quite right there is not a lot of analytic thought, at least in the posts.
This place reeks of hate.
It wasn't the atheists, I assure you.
An atheist at work who I had had many arguments with tried to destroy me by setting me up.
The truth came out.
He was convicted.
I see the hate shitting diarrhea around here is as fetid as ever.
Now, I don't pretend to be hear to convert anyone, you have made your choices but I just like to let you know that we all know what you would do to us if you got control.
I have satisfaction in knowing no admitted atheist will ever gain political office.
In fact, I am impressed by a guy in this city who outs atheists.
Its hilarious to see them dissemble and try to explain their hate filled irrationality.
Some shit always tries to tell me how open and tolerant atheists are and I always have this site to refer them to.
Keep up the good work, saps.
Don't change a thing.
You are really successful.
Trust me.
Did you know Hitler was a cocksucker?
You didn't read all the posts, and where you came up with accusations of anti-Semitism, I don't know. The fact of the matter is that Paul's God and the Jewish God are one and the same. Do you disagree?
"Paul, these people hate your guts and they hate Christians...don't kid yourself."
Correction: We don't like Christianity or Christians who dogmatically insist (Paul hasn't, to his credit) that he has possession of the one absolute truth.
Besides, he's already kidding himself. Why stop now?
"We need to work politically to make sure these kind don't get control over us."
Here in the U.S., it is a religious majority that already has control. Yes, we don't like it. Is it likely to change? No.
"We has seen what happens when atheists run a society, my parents escaped, being severly diabled in the process form an atheist inspired dictatorship."
Sorry for your experience. Which country? Perhaps there was more at work than a religious ideology?
Incidentally, humanity is the cause of all of its own ills, regardless of ideology. Perhaps you know of a time in history when religion wasn't responsible for massive bloodshed and suffering?
"But you are quite right there is not a lot of analytic thought, at least in the posts."
Hurl insults all you want, it won't change the truth.
"This place reeks of hate."
It does now. Thanks for nothing.
An atheist at work who I had had many arguments with tried to destroy me by setting me up.
The truth came out.
He was convicted.
I see the hate shitting diarrhea around here is as fetid as ever.
Now, I don't pretend to be hear to convert anyone, you have made your choices but I just like to let you know that we all know what you would do to us if you got control.
I have satisfaction in knowing no admitted atheist will ever gain political office.
In fact, I am impressed by a guy in this city who outs atheists.
Its hilarious to see them dissemble and try to explain their hate filled irrationality.
Some shit always tries to tell me how open and tolerant atheists are and I always have this site to refer them to.
Keep up the good work, saps.
Don't change a thing.
You are really successful.
Trust me.
"
Well, there are always nice atheists and not-nice atheists. Keep in mind that there are nice christians and not-nice christians.
The big question is, do you want to be a nice individual, or a not-nice individual? The nice individuals usually, in my experience, get more respect. And besides, it's nice to be nice, no matter what you believe in.
At one point, his parents were evil atheists. Now
"my parents escaped, being severly [sic] diabled [sic] in the process form [from] an atheist inspired dictatorship."
Oh another, some family member, an atheist, abused him. This goldie character sometimes speaks in the third person and at times it seems as if it's a little girl crying out. Then in another persona it's a pissy teenage boy going through puberty with the worst case of acne and then at other times, an angry hippie in his mid 40's.
As I've said many times, if I "got control", I'd urge you to get some counseling. Seriously.
Part 1: Introduction and Judaism
Sermon Notes of Pastor Mark Downey
"I could have titled this message "The Truth About Jews", but I don't think it would have hit the same nerve. At this point, some people may think I've got a lot of nerve talking about God's Chosen People. The point of this message, however, is that if people knew the truth about jews, they would hate them just as I do, and would be committing 'hate speech' by rejecting the idea that jews are God's Chosen People. God has chosen jews to fulfill a role, but it is the complete opposite of what they purportedly represent. What they represent is the evil and wickedness of an antichrist nature in the world. They are perpetually engaged in damage control from generation to generation, if they are not being purged en masse from an entire country. Through their efforts, darkness covers the earth. Jews are a dead end for this planet."
http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/WhyWeHateJews.htm
I guess that means you are all wet, there EG, tell us, what's hitler's breath smell like?
...Like, I had an argument at work...::sniff, sniff::..with one of those stupid atheist people...::sniff, sniff::...y' know?.. those stupid people?.. the ones who don't believe in magic?...::sniff, sniff::...yeah, them! Well......well, just for that!....ALL atheists are dumb dumbs who hate everything! STUPID ATHEISTS! Oh, and BTW, I'm telling all my christian friends to come here to see the intolerance!.....BOTH OF THEM!
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"I have satisfaction in knowing no admitted atheist will ever gain political office."
Yeah, cuz the current Christian in office is doing a fabulous job. The country is becoming Christian and stupid, just like you want. Dark Ages, here we come! Better brush up on your Chinese.
They died when I was young and I was raised by my uncle, who WAS an atheist.
He is dead now, and he knows better.
This piece of shit was an alcoholic intellectual with a library of about 2500 atheist books, which constiture my inheritance.
I acutually started reading this stuff, and realized what brain dead hate puke it was.
The old bastard had atheist meeting in the basement every Saturday night...they called themselves "freethinkers" and drank and afterwards he beat my aunt and raped her.
Like clockwork.
He spouted a lot of Nietzsche, and I get some of my best quotes from that syphillitic fucker.
But now I have the basement, and from here I post to the world uncer many names.
For my name is really Legion.
ATTENTION!!! ATTENTION!!! Looney Alert!!! Looney Alert!!!
Someone has removed the vent cover leading into the main duct system with a fingernail file again!!!
It's Emanual Goldstein Again!!! he's headed to the computer room as always, and he'll soon be logged on to the
ex-chritian site, and he'll post some ignorant rubbish as always, he imagines he talks to imaginary friends in the sky and he hates Atheists, but he loves Christians, even if they cut both of his grandma's arms off, he would still love all Christians, but do not let an Atheist say they do not believe in his imaginary friends, he would like to kill all Atheists.
Ok Emanual, it's time to return back to the pink rubber room, here's your silly putty and string, stay off the freaking computer, you fool!!!
"The problems I do have with the site is that a lot of the testimonies and the posts seem more emotionilly driven then analytically"
You went on later to quote scripture "NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH".
Tell me where the "faith" of followers and "emotions" of posts differ in respect to both sides?
I found Christianity based on emotion and the analytic. I left it based on the same exact way. You ask me to join based on emotions "faith" and not the errors of the bible chain letter or actions of man. I became a "Christian" because of a "witness". A witness that testified to the love of Gahd in his heart. I knew of no love before. I said OK. I want this love. Now that I see there is no love in the people of God or a loving god based on the faith I took in the people as a naive person in crisis, I now have a right to give a verdict to the non-truth of the witness.
I got sucked in by 99% emotion. I left under 99% emotion at first, but now turned it into 99% analytic.
I was lied to and left the fold. I then came to wonder why and then studies every side of the issue as to why things went badly. I came to understand that the people are bad. If there were a god, it would certainly understand why I would leave and not believe.
Again, I had no proof when I joined and faith only. It took the same faith to leave and evidence over time as to why. You can't tell me to not look at man because that is the person who told me about his god. It's the same as telling to not look at the suicide bomber and to Allah only.
Faith and truth can't co-exist. Faith is used when facts of truth are unattainable. These the ways of trickery.
You live your faith on emotion and you tell me I can't live mine unless it's your way.
"In school in Gaza, I learned hate, vengeance and retaliation. Peace was never an option, as it was considered a sign of defeat and weakness. At school we sang songs with verses calling Jews "dogs" (in Arab culture, dogs are considered unclean).
Criticism and questioning were forbidden. When I did either of these, I was told: "Muslims cannot love the enemies of God, and those who do will get no mercy in hell." As a young woman, I visited a Christian friend in Cairo during Friday prayers, and we both heard the verbal attacks on Christians and Jews from the loudspeakers outside the mosque. They said: "May God destroy the infidels and the Jews, the enemies of God. We are not to befriend them or make treaties with them." We heard worshippers respond "Amen".
My friend looked scared; I was ashamed. That was when I first realised that something was very wrong in the way my religion was taught and practised. Sadly, the way I was raised was not unique. Hundreds of millions of other Muslims also have been raised with the same hatred of the West and Israel as a way to distract from the failings of their leaders. Things have not changed since I was a little girl in the 1950s."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/02/12/do1205.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/02/12/ixop.html
Legion or Lesion.
Lesion: "A lump or abscess that may be caused by injury or disease, such as cancer."
ourcuddles.com/glossary.htm
Lesion it is.
Antisemitism Against Messianic Judaism And Messianic Jews
"Anti-semitism is not just an accusation Jews can hurl at Gentiles. It is also found among Jews themselves. And what of Anti-Gentileism from Jews which is nearly the basis of Pharisee-Talmudism?
Anti-Semitism may have been born in Egypt when the Jews became enslaved there after staying to long in a pagan land and not moving where God really wanted them.
An examination of the Old Testament in the fighting between the ten north tribes and the two south tribes seems to be Jewish anti-Semitism of Jew against Jew. The Jews who followed the pagan religion of Baal and cow worship, hated the true God worshipers in the southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin. This amounted to the seed of David tribe vs the northern ten tribes under non-Davidic usurpers and evil kings. The hatred was rooted in political and theological differences of theocracy vs humanism. That hatred continues down to today against Christian Messianism."
http://jesus-messiah.com/studies/persecution.html
religious sects?
It would seem that only man is capible of Hatred and Murder but attributes it to a God for their own selfish reasons, not to make humanity look so bad itself.
I think that the Event of Evil fromh Hatred could not be from any loving God as both often and openly and frequently displayed in the Bible and Qu'ran, this plainly shows anyone with dab of logic and common sense that the teachings of the Bible and Qu'ran are plainly false and it is disguised as being Holy, therefore the Malice of Evil in men's minds are the sole author's of both books.
I carry no titles, and make no claims, I am a human being, no different than any other human being, when we are born, there are no titles, no stamps, no creeds, no beliefs in any Gods.
If there is a evil nature that is representitive of all evil thoughts that are inherent in Humans minds, then evil impeded by man is the sole author of both books and man's own prophesy to destroy himself, will be some day be fulfilled.
When all humans are destroyed by their own actions and beliefs, only then will there be world peace.
What interesting times we all live in.
Many of the most cordial Christians either hum hymns or listen to contemporary Christian music, or repeat Scripture in their heads, and wonder what they can do next to make someone think that they're a "good little Christian."
I used to do the same thing, and now people wonder why I do not shower them with praise and gifts to make them think that I am a "good little Christian." I used to go to people's houses and work and they would try to pay me, But No! I would not take a penny, I wanted to emblazon on their brains the idea that I was a "good little Christian." (The "people-pleasing for Christ" part of my life ended over 15 years ago.) That's what many Christians are, people pleasers, God pleasers, Jesus pleasers, preacher pleasers.
Jesus was a people pleaser, thats why he was so willing to die, either to please God or his ignorant followers.
Ben at http://exchristian.net/ [edited by E.T.B.]
____________________________
HOW TO SPOT CHRISTIANS
One Sunday afternoon my cousin and I were eating at a restaurant. He paused, and started pointing at people. “He’s a Christian … He’s a Christian … So is she and she and that other guy.”
I asked how he was so sure.
His reply? “I was a hard-core Evangelical Christian for a few years, remember? It’s not hard to see once you know what to look for. Look for someone who looks like they’re wearing clothes just a little bit nicer than they’re comfortable in, that have a smile on their face. It won’t look like a happy smile, it’ll look kind of contrived and forced, like they’re trying to convince themselves they’re happy and rich.”
Justice McPherson
____________________________
CONVERTED OR ADDICTED?
Psychotherapists will tell you that in dealing with an addict, you have to understand that the person’s primary relationship is with the drug. The drug has the ability to control the addict’s thinking to a remarkable degree, and you must understand that any relationship you may feel with the addict is a distant second to the one they have with their drug. The most devout Evangelical Christians are open and unabashed about this. Their “relationship with Jesus” as they use the term, is the primary relationship in their lives. There is even a scripture that goes something like, “Not unless you hate your mother and father can you be my disciple,” and, “Who are my mother and father? But he who hears and words of God and does them.” Jesus even suggested to one disciple that he ought not return home to help bury a dead family member, instead he ought to “Let the dead bury the dead.” In other words, Evangelicals stress that one’s love for Jesus ought to be so strong that relatively speaking, one’s love for even close family members, must not compare. You may love your mother but you should love Jesus so much more that in comparison it’s like you hate her. Doesn’t this sound an awful lot like a drunk’s love for the bottle?
It may be helpful when trying to have a relationship with a believer to remember that you and their relationship with you means very little to them compared to their need to continue in their thought addiction. In fact “true believers” may happily sacrifice a relationship with their own spouses or children should those family members refuse to convert, or become “unbelievers.” In such cases the “true believer” feels they are making the ultimate sacrifice in “serving God rather than man.”
Evangelical beliefs may promise you comfort, security and power just like the ads for alcohol link its consumption with sexiness, sports activities, and a rippin’ good time, but the promises in both cases often grow sour as the addict grows more hardened and insistent.
Some people have an instant “conversion” to alcoholism. They take their first drink, or have their first good drunk and understand (in the words of a very young alcoholic client I once had) “This (drinking) is what I was put on this world to do.”
For some people their religion is an illness they are trying to recover from and the recovery process is more difficult than recovering from alcoholism.
Saint Vilis at the Yahoo Group, ExitFundyism
____________________________
HOW DIFFERENT ARE MOST “CONVERTED” PEOPLE?
Were it true that a converted man as such is of an entirely different kind from a natural man, there surely ought to be some distinctive radiance. But notoriously there is no such radiance. Converted men as a class are indistinguishable from normal men,
By the very intensity of his fidelity to the paltry ideals with which an inferior intellect may inspire him, a saint can be even more objectionable and damnable than a superficial “carnal” man would be in the same situation.
William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience
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IS THE HEART OF MAN DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS AND DESPERATELY WICKED?
According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus taught, “If you see a woman and lust after her, I say that you have already committed adultery in your heart.” In other words, even if you don’t commit adultery “in the flesh,” you’ve committed it just by lusting after someone. Now suppose you see someone in need, who could use some cash or a kind word, and you yearn in your heart to give it to them (but for whatever reason are unable to give it to them). Does that mean you have “already committed charity in your heart?” Think about it. If a lust-filled yearning (not the act of sex, but just the yearning), is evidence of how bad the human heart is, then what about the yearnings people feel to help and support one another? Might they not be an indication of goodness in people’s hearts?
Gandhi, the famous Hindu peace-activist, taught that people should seek out what was best in their own religions and hearts. Even Jesus put a positive spin on “the heart” when he taught that “The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart” (Luke 6:45 & Mat. 12:35), and when he taught that people ought to “Love God with all their heart,” (Mat. 22:37). How is that possible if the “heart” is “wicked and deceitful above all things?”
No doubt the “wickedness” of the “heart” as depicted in the book of Jeremiah, chapter 17, verse 9 (“The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked”) applies to some people at some times whenever they act deceitful and wicked, especially when they are at their lowest and weakest points. But to take t