I can't even begin to respond to this, but I'll try.

Sweetie, why don't you go volunteer at a homeless shelter or youth center if you feel a need to help someone. All of us here are quite content with our non-belief, and we've never been happier.

Offer your services where they would really do some good. We'll be o.k., really.

Oh, I do have a question. If you are so concerned that us ex-christians are gonna burn, could you explain how that will happen, as our bodies will rot away after we die. The bible doesn't seem to offer much info about this. It would be nice if you could clear this up for me. :)

Yo,Tabitha,
I am not an agnostic; I am an atheist. And like other atheists I have no use for your ridiculous religious beliefs. There is no hell, no heaven, no Satan, no angels. There is no god, and the Jesus chap most likely never existed. There never was a resurection, there are no such thing as miracles, and when we die, it is THE END. What part about those simple statements do you not understand?
We have heard your pathetic condescension hundreds of times. It makes you feel somehow superior to "pray for us." You want to suffer under that delusion, fine. Just don't expect any of us to seriously consider your fantasies.
Have a nice day.

Something smells!!!

Who took a crap?

I love it when Christians want to pray for me. I figure I can use all the prayers I can get. I don't believe in their idea of a God, I'm more inclined toward pantheism (i.e. it's all God, the good and that which we don't perceive as good. I don't perceive Billy Graham as good, but I'm glad you do. I hope you'll stick around and read some of the other comments. I especially liked one guy's thoughts about being a Christian Zombie (or something like that).

Steve

Tabitha,

Would you marry someboday who stuck a gun to your head and said,
"I love you, would you marry me? If you don't, I am going to blow your head off."

That's what your invitation to follow Christ sounds to me honey. An invitation to love him under a death threat.

I don't know if there is a God. But if there is one, I am pretty sure She ain't like that.

Take care,

Lorena

Sigh-here we go again. Just as I can't swallow vinegar, a spoon full of sugar doesn't make the bullshit go down any easier.

Honeybunch, go back and read some more testimonies. We've already been preached to, lied to, stolen from, manipulated, bribed, threatened and yes, sometimes beaten by a philosophy we sincerely believed in and people we loved and trusted. Why should you be any different?

And don't use the same tired excuses, "they weren't true christians". There is no such thing.

Michelle is right. Throwing a bible around won't help but some volunteer work might. Did you read the recent article titled "Ethical Behavior"? It opens with a fabulous quote by Albert Einstein that might put things in perspective.


Tabitha, I don't need religion or prayers. I'm still nice to people-I just don't have a membership card anymore.

Tabitha,
I'm not so much worried as that I feel sorry for you. Your mind is trapped in the snare of Christian rhetoric which is very difficult to break free of. I know from personal experience as it took me 45 years to realize that it is all built on an imaginary foundation, just like every other religion and myth which you would acknowledge as being false.
My hope is that someday your (mind's) eyes will be opened to reality and you will see that Christianity is only one more doctrine based on stories from hearsay without any evidence to support it's claims.
In the mean time, I understan how you feel because I would have felt the same way when I was still "blinded by the light". But please rest assured that we ex's are very much at peace with our lack of belief just as you are with yours in other religions.

Billy Graham??? Isn't he that guy who believes every natural disaster is God punishing people for something? If a guy who is woefully ignorant of the laws of nature is your idea of an amazing person, I suggest you get out more. There are so many truly amazing people in the world. BG sure isn't one of them.

Dear Ms Sopko.
Just a few questions, take 'em or leave 'em.
How do you know the bible is true? Because the bible says it's true? What other evidence do you have?
How do you know that the whole Christian mindset, people going to hell, and sending others there, praying for Jesus to accept us back has any basis in reality at all? If god is real, what kind of god would he be to send us to eternal punishment for not bowing down to him when he gives us no objective evidence for his existence? If god loves us and wants to go to heaven why doesn't he write a new book or just appear personally? Maybe at the United Nations Conference? Oh but that would be the Anti Christ, wouldn't it? According to Christian belief? I struggled with trying to believe for many years and, on hearing no objective evidence as to god's existence, let it all go. Don't waste time praying, get out and do something, eh? You'll feel better than filling your mind and others with biblical fantasies.

Anonymous,

The one who thinks every natural disaster is God's judgement is Pat Robertson, not Billy Graham.

Tabitha,

No one is here to deconvert anybody. My understanding is that the purpose of this site is to provide support to fellow wounded ex-christians. I don't want to take responsibility for your losing your faith; I wouldn't wish my confusion and depression on another soul, and wish I could remain as convinced as you are (the world was a lot less complex when I was a believer). The fact is, once I knew christianity was not true, I could not UNknow it, and visiting this site and hearing others' experiences is a comfort.
I wish you well.

What would cause someone to come on a ex-christian site and spout that they will pray for us.

SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!

Are you speaking on the behalf of a dead man that has been dead for over 2000 years, are you basing your erroneous presumption on what a bunch on mentally insane men wrote down on clay tablets over 2000 years ago?

How do you know they wre not insane? Can you prove that the people that wrote the Bible were not insane?

Can you prove that the people that wrote the Bible were not on Opium or Cannabis or drunk on wine?

How can anyone, in their right mind, defend what was written down in a book over 2000 years ago?

Not knowing who for 100% sure who wrote it? Neither God nor Jesus never wrote any part of the Bible.

How do you know that the Bible was inspired by god, instead of a mystical drug?

What evidence can you supply that will prove beyond a shadow doubt, in anyone's mind, that the Bible is the true written word of a God?

Which God? The God of Wine? The God of Opium? The God of Heroin? The God of Hashhish? Which frikkin God?

The Bible writers thought that the Heart talked to them, they had no medical knowledge and very little knowledge of anything and mostly based their knowledge on fear and superstitions.

It's the BRAIN!!! that thoughts come from, not the heart.

They thought it was from a God, all the while, it was their brain that told them what to write, not their heart, there cannot be a God as stupid and ignorant as the one portrayed in the Bible.

The Bible was written by the thoughts of a man only, not from any God.

Tabitha you self-righteous brainwashed zommbie, get a life!

Hi little girl! How are you to-day? Fine? That's nice.

Looky, we know you really mean well by telling us that we're going to burn in hell, and all.... but listen hun, before you come in here and regurgitate what your Mommy taught you, you might want to at least first grow some pubic hair, 'k sweety?... or, if THAT'S a few years off still, maybe you could actually investigate how we, as EX-christians, arrived at our new-found UNfaith by actually reading some of the testimonies......do you think Mommy would allow that? Do you?Okay Dear, have fun......and stay where Mommy can see you!

...::in a Beavis tone::... DIE!!!!!DIE!!!!DIE!!!!

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poor Tabitha!

Barb

I hear you on that life was alot simpler when I knew that I knew the truth. I get kind of nostaligic for those days from time to time/

Billy Graham amazing? Yes Tabitha he is amazing. He has created a wealthy empire and a life of luxury and riches for himself and his family. It's too bad so many Christians like yourself have never read the bible. Jesus himself said (according to the bible)
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Did you get that? In other words flat out impossible. Did you know that statement is in the bible at three places? So you see Tabitha, amazing Billy won't be going to heaven. Also why would a man who claims to believe and live the bible make such a horrible mistake? Devote his whole life to God but ignore his words and warning three times? Here's a clue, It's called a scam.

This is a support site for people who have already left Christianity. I don't think we're leading people away.

And if you think we're going to burn in hell, fine, the Muslims think Christians are going to burn in hell. Who is right, huh? Answer that!

And, oh, have we heard Billy Graham? Yes we have, sweetie, as well as Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Robert Tilton, Kenneth Copeland, James Dobson, ad nauseum...oh, sorry, you probably don't know what that phrase means...

You're probably a "hit and run" and will never come back.

Hmmmm...lessee...I've already probably put more thought into my response than you did to your post.

Obviously hasn't read the site. Cute fear motivated rhetoric. Signs of fundie hit and run troll here. Maybe your heart hurts because everyone who meets you wants to put a stake through it. Just a thought.

Oh, and not agnostic, you see I got a better offer...too bad it doesn't extend to a piece of human trash like you.

And before anyone bitches about not debating or treating the subject with respect, I'd like to point out two things: 1) she only made assertions, ergo nothing to argue and 2) from this writing, it can be seen that she doesn't deserve any respect.

Sweetheart, please go out and get some. With all that malace, surely you haven't been getting any sex in a while. Because if you had, no way little old Ex-C would be on your radar....because you'd be too busy, well getting busy.

Plus it does wonders for releasing endorphins that make you feel good, overall, about life instead of spending your existance dwelling on old bronze-age deities smiting people and what not.

So please calm down, have a glass of wine, a fine-looking man with a huge.....um, bank account and call me in the morning. ;)

My Heart hurts for you people! That's a total lie!

If your Heart hurts you would be running off to see a doctor immediately.

Using the Heart scam as an emotion, is the perpetual lie of religion!

You see, the people that lived 2000 years ago thought that their Heart talked to them, they never knew that the Brain existed, they relied on the reaction of the Heart, to tell them what they were thinking and wanted to hear.

This is the solid proof that all religions are a LIE!

The Heart reacts to what a person's brain sees and hears, it's called, Fight or Flight Syndrome.

Surely a God would have known about the Brain! But they were just writing about their inherent fear of death and dying, and calling it inspired, from a God.

Funny how the Bible writers 2000 years ago knew nothing about the planet and things that they could see, but knew all there was about things they could not see, like ghosts and spirits and Angels and demons!

This is the same lie that Billy Graham and so many others are getting filthy rich on, using the word Heart to discribe an emotion, which is the same lie that the Bible writers used.

Your Heart is a pump, it does not talk to you, it pumps blood only, it does not think!

Your Heart Does Not!

cry! ache! talk! get mad or sad! have eyes! or ears! have a rudder! or a door! break! goes out! love or hate! have strings! get heavy! cheat! get bitter! get right or left! get cold! have a burden! you cannot surrender your Heart! accept God or Jesus! you cannot invite anyone into your Heart!

These are the Perpetual Lies that the Bible writers used to manipulate people 2000 years ago, and the false preachers are still using them today to lie and minipulate people into submission.

And you've bought into the Lie, and you're no different than the liars that spread them.

Religions are a perpetual Lie, it must tell lies to coax and manipulate it's sheep.

When you use the word Heart, to discribe an emotion, you're telling a bold face Lie.

Tabitha, you and all Christians are a Perpetual Liars!

"To send yourself to hell is one thing"

We don't. Your Hell(TM) is a myth.

"Maybe your laughing but you won' t be when Jesus says I never knew you away from me."

Ah, threats. I take it you have nothing else to "support" your claims with.

"My heart hurts for people like you"

Liar. You don't feel any compassion for "us unbelievers". You are just babbling what your cult führer has told you to babble.
If you really want to send a message to us which we at least check out, here's what to do:
Go to the forums of this site. Register (don't be a coward like all your fundie friends). Read some of our extimonies. Read some more about what we do or do not know/believe/whatever. Then, if you still think you've got anything to say, say it there.

"I will pray for you"

Fine, pray to empty air. I don't care.

"...even though you don' t want it and you better pray that you do come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell."

Ah, threats again.
Convince us that your Hell(TM) exists. While we are at it and because that amounts to very much the same, prove that the wholly babble is trustworthy in any of its claims to the supernatural.

"You had it right the first time please carefully weigh out your consequences for being agnostic verses christian."

You know, continuing to deny Odin Allfather will mean you end up in Hel (the original, before you fundie numbnuts copied it like you copied pretty much everything from your rivals). Don't take that risk - come to us, become an Asatruar and get your chance to enter Valhalla after death!
Sounds arrogant, eh? Now guess how your babble sounds to us.

Billy Graham spent his whole life evangelizing for Jesus, and as a reward for this Jesus took his mind and memory away so that Billy could live out his old age as a vegetable. If this is how Jesus rewards the faithful on earth, why do you think he will give them any better reward in the afterlife?

Whatever. "I never knew you" in the bible actually I believe is talking about the hypocrites in christianity, otherwise christians themselves!

Just to prove my point, although I think you'll just ignore me Tabitha.

Matthew 7

21 "Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven.

22 On judgment day many will tell me, `Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.'

23 But I will reply, `I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.

Actually please spare us all from your lies. Your head doesn't ache for us because you do not know each one of us. Also how could your heart hurt when we are just strangers to you, face it lady, you can't care for strangers. Not this fast anyway.

So, let me get this straight...you want to be right, so we can "come back with your tail between your legs because you don't want to experience hell.."

Well how very caring of you! What a hypocrite, first you say that your head and heart aches and now you say that you want to be right so we can be damned, from your own twisted point of view. You are sick lady.

Its your kind of twisted thinking that's keeping many intelligent people running from religion and run they should!

Well we're not dogs, cats or lizards...we don't have tails....most of us shouldn't anyway!

One more thing...

Preaching and begging does pay off! We've learned that from Billy Graham, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen. I've watched their programs lady, most of them are about prosperity and positive "practical" christian living.

They are no different than the rest! Do you honestly think they would be preaching for many years if they got nothing out of it?! Oh no!!! Each person has to survive and make a living, money is king in this world. Without money as a motivator, no one would be preaching. That's a fact.

Hmm must be nice having all that money from preaching!

Tabby, you say you're worried that we might be leading others down the road to ruin. But, how do you know that you're not on your way to hell yourself? Personally, I'd rather get there on my own terms. I mean, just imaging trying to explain to satan "Hey, I was just doing what Billy said I should do!"

Of course if you are "really" sure that you're on god's guest list, and you're "really" sad about us not making the "right" choice have you ever considered volunteering to take our place in hell? I mean, wouldn't that be a more noble sacrifice? Wouldn't that be what Jesus would do? (Come to think of it, Jesus had that choice and he opted to go to heaven and leave us all to burn, didn't he?)

Oh well, one last thought. If it really starts to bother you that all us x-tians are thinking "bad" thoughts, remember; its your god that made up the rules, so blame him - not us.

All Christians are in denial. There is nothing supernatural, your god is an illusion, just like any other gods. I wasted 30 years of my life following this myth, it destroyed my life, it is an evil religion based on ancient superstitions, lies, contradictions, fairytales and wishful thinking. There is no such thing as a personal relationship with Jesus, because he is not real. There is no holy spirit, and as I am an ex-christian, I speak from experience, for I tried everything to have a relationship with this God, but it was always a one way relationship, alive only in my mind. What is criminal is for preachers and churches to tell people that this fantasy is real, when we all know that there is no proof, no verifiable interactions or miracles of any kind from any such entity that supposedly loves us. It is nothing less than mass psychosis and it undermines one's ability to survive in the real world, because no imaginary friend is really there for us. Relying on Christ, the Holy Ghost or Yahweh or any other god is foolhardy because doing so disarms you, makes you weak and unable to deal with reality by focusing on Reality. The truth is that a loving God would have compassion and would be a part of our life, just like other creatures can be our friends and love us. True Love does not come with strings attached, it is merciful and puts Love first, it changes things and creatures for the better, it does not destroy or hurt, it wants to be with you because it misses your Love, it is not distant like this christian god, it does not use intermediaries, it is open and pure and simple. The Jesus of the bible is none of these things, I called for 30 years and there was no answer. I am not going to pretend anymore. It is very sad to realize that there is no afterlife, but this hurts only because those lying preachers created this desire in us in the first place. Nobody wants to die or lose loved pets or friends forever, but just like the Santa Claus myth, it hurts much less if you outgrow it in your early years. By the way, anybody who says that Jesus blessed them so and so just say that, but it means nothing, for it cannot be proven. Jesus or Yahweh don't fare any better when compared to other gods, either. One could use the same type of apologetics, faith "arguments" or testimonials or hearsay, or unprovable rationales, to come up with any excuses for any divinity to exist. There is no more proof of cognitive interaction between the Christian God and man than there is for Allah and the rest of them, all indifferent and cold and empty and yes, dead. I say all of this with great sadness, for I wasted my life following a shadow and a lie. And yes, I asked Jesus to come into my heart and repented and confessed that I am a sinner and I tried all other ways of praying or approaching God or Christ, but my despair at the ever present silence from the Trinity never softened the nonexistent heart of this nonexistent Being. Finally, after 30 years, I have no choice but to realize that they are not real. As I say these things, I mean no disrespect, for I always had faith when I prayed, but I am not going to have faith unto death itself. If this God is not interested in a relationship in my lifetime, it's almost impossible there would be anything at all thereafter. For all we know, we turn into putrid slime and rot and the brain structures that held the information that made us who we where are gone forever. There is no proof that there is a soul, beyond of what the brain allowed us to be. A God who was not interested in being a real part of our lives when we where here on Earth is very unlikely to care thereafter, even if he indeed existed. The greatest crime of this God, as with any others, is his great Inhumanity to man and beast alike. I have come to realize that this can only be because unlike what the Bible says, it is us who created Him in our own anthropomorphic image, a deluded vision of the Universe as explained by a more savage humanity, bathing in blood, Jesus's or everybody else's, and it might as well be so, because the fascination with violence fills the Bible as it filled ancient history and on to our era, it remains as evil Scriptures, even to this day. The irony is that the god who killed my soul is not even there to shed a tear. Christianity, with all its purported acts of goodwill, has perpetrated a much greater number of injustices and moral crimes, and as such I see it as the greatest and most pernicious Lie ever to befall mankind. The sooner we free ourselves from this yoke of fancies, the more chance future humans will have to maybe, at some point in a distant future, bring a modicum of sanity and balance to this wretched world, and hopefully even prolong and better Life on Earth. And then, assuming we will have shed all our ancient vices, religion and all feuds there might arise, a stronger and more civilized of eras, might come upon to bring the true security we seek, and Love, and health, and purity of heart. If Love is ever to control our lives, we must continue to evolve in human spirit and learn to let kindness and Love reflect in actions. Morality is not of God, but it's a human construct, and it will die with us, unless we change. Religion brought the worst in us. It makes good people do bad things, it blinds you to the truth, and makes one cling to factions. It is the great Abomination. And yes, Jesus is no different, he answers prayer not, just like his father, because it is a myth. The story of my life: He stole my life, and he's not real, I cry in blood, my own real, spiritual blood of years of tears.

Oh, but thank you Jesus for a life of absence on Your part and of Your Father - so alike...- oh, Lord of broken promises, you master of excuses, there's nothing holy in your spirit, no prayer answered and no mercy, I kill you in my heart for good, you don't exist except in our minds and I am weary, I am weak, you made me so, just like your "miracle" statistics. I flip a coin and get better results than you can muster. Compassion demands more presence on your part, but no, you are a myth, a parable it seems... A parable speaking in parables, a forgery and fraud.

There probably is no God and so I suffer, as do so many others, I'm sure of it... But as for me, I will pretend no more.

I too am having doubts, but I don't know if I should just give in or keep struggling for answers.

And if I give in before I answer the doubts one way or the other, will I actually be making another mistake.

Any advice would be appreciated.

So hurt one says there is no supernatural, and concludes by saying there "probably" is no God.

Well, which is it...there is none or ther "probably" is none?

My answer would be that "probably" you can not explain all existence, life, mind and reason itself as a function of the operation of mindless forces.

But, like all atheists, you have faith that you can.

What I meant is that just because there is no valid proof of anything supernatural in our immediate universe does not logically allow me to infer that the same applies to the rest of the universe or to whatever there is outside of it, if indeed it is finite as far as space-time is concerned. Unlike others, I have enough common sense to not be arrogant and presume that i know everything. Spoken in true scientific spirit, poor me, the new atheist... Believe me, part of me still longs for God to exist and for Jesus to be real... Who wants to perish, forever? My "heart" wishes God were true, my mind tells me it's very likely untrue. And again, which god are we talking about? There are about as many Jesuses as there are believers. It's all in our minds. God, as far as we can tell, cannot live outside of our minds. Nevertheless, even in my non-belief, I still proclaim love and compassion above all things.

Hi ho, hi ho,

It's off to hell we go,,,

Dum dum de dum dum dum de dum

Hi ho, hi ho...

Well, we've been damned again. Imagine that.

Tabitha, you said that Jesus would say "I never knew you" to us. Are you referring to Matt. 7:23? It sounds to me as though Christ is referring to christians in said passage! Notice Matt 7:21 and 7:22: "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matt. 7:23, then, reads, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Let's examine this.

A.)We don't "saith unto" him "Lord, Lord." Christians do.

B.)We don't "prophesy in Jesus' name," or "cast out devils" in his name. Christians do.

C.)We don't "do wonderful works" in his name. Christians do.

D.)He goes on to say "ye that work iniquity." Iniquity is "sin." Christians are admitted "sinners." We aren't.

In Matt. 7:21 Christ states that "he that doeth the will of (God)" will enter heaven, not those who say, "Lord." If your beliefs are correct, then Christ is saying that a person must be doing the will of God prior to entering heaven, presumably at their "judgement," and that many christians will not be doing so. They will not enter heaven. This defies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, which the christian church is built on.

Speaking of the gospels, what do you suppose Christ meant when he said, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned (Matt. 12:37)?" How do you correlate this with the doctrine of "salvation by grace alone?" How would somebody's words "condemn" them, if said doctrine were true?

The problem with the bible is this: It's a mess which will confuse anybody who reads it. While confused, the reader may think they are pleasing God by reading that book and may even have a "religious experience," imaginary or otherwise. They will then overlook anything in the book that does not fit into their world of guaranteed salvation or confuses them. We don't overlook things. We're honest about the bible. The christian church, as a whole, is not, I'm sorry to say, from what I've seen. There are many passages in the bible which any church will ignore. The above is just one small example. Read the book for yourself and be honest about it.

By the way, did you know that Billy Graham foretold of the end times back in the 1950's and he was wrong? Sorry to burst your bubble.

Love the way you added "Yours in Christ" after threatening us with hell...

To Ray: my own experience and research and failed prayers brought me to what I believe about life now. I am also venting my pain and anger and hurt because I feel betrayed by this God and His Son(?) as belief in them affected MY life a certain way. I have heard of people who swear that God talks to them every day, and they seem sane. However, I think they are delusional by virtue of cultural automatisms and mass psychosis, but that is only my opinion, NOW. That does not mean most of them are not good people, well-meaning and so on. I hope you will have more luck than I, but like Shakespeare said, "...to thine own self be true" You must follow your own path and see what works for you. Nevertheless, if you feel that you've been banging your head against a wall and want to stop the pain, then start thinking for yourself. Just remember, Love is kind, anything else is not love, nor is it kind.

Have any of you lived in a country where people die for there faith. Get ready its coming here. We are so spoiled over here. Oh there is no God! Ya'll wake up check out what is going on in the world. Guess what foretold in the BIBLE! Devil not real huh! Go visit a prison and look to the eyes of some individuals with no hope and watch them feel with Joy over Christ! God is God whether you believe it or not. Jesus is his only begotten son whether you believe it or not.

To screwedbyatheists:
and one more thing: I may not be able to prove that God does not exist, because there is so much that escapes our observation, but anybody can prove the immorality of this god,if it exists, just read the "good" book and then also become aware of all suffering ever experienced by all creatures since the beggining of life on this planet. Become aware of the food chain. only an evil, diabolical entity, if it existed would think of that. I know there is no God. That does not stop me from still wishing there was one. Kind of like knowing the winning probability in lottery but still spending another dollar hoping you could win. By the way, statistically, there is a greater chance of winning lotto, than talking to God, like christians claim, PROBABLY lying or just being delusional.

Ya'll would not be sodefensive if you did not thimk Tabitha to be right!

Hey, look at John, true to their nature: Threats, violence and mythology and assumptions and hearsay and testimonials and generalities and hocus-pocus and again, NOT THE LOVE SPOKEN BY THE SELF CONTRADICTING CHRIST. Wow, just because people in jails may have weird looks that means Satan is real. Wow, such logic, how does that follow? So typical...

Who is we? I just stumbled onto this website tonight for the first time. Used to categorizing people, huh? Just like your criminal book. Nothing surprises me anymore with such comments... We are different people with stories of our own and we should not be herded into one group like that. Why do I have to be called an atheist because I don't believe in yet another incarnation of recycled myths? Is there also a category for someone who does not believe in the easter bunny? I think not.

I don't know about "WE'all", but I'll speak for myself:
I certainly am not defensive, but maybe I JUST HATE THE SON OF A BITHCH MYTH. Get this: Did you read my initial post? I guess not thoroughly, it seems...I said I tried to talk to God and Jesus and asked for the Holy GHost and so on and there was nothing. Ever. total silence. Always. Except for my own "little voice in my heart". But nothing from anything remotely supernatural. It was always a one way conversation. Read my first post carefully. it is the truth of my own experience.

Hey hurt by the psyhco lie.....have you been in prison before not jail but prison big difference. The devil though operates best in the Church mostly behind the pulpit. His best defense is for you not to believe he exsists at all. My pasto lived in Zimbawee (sp?) for 4 years and saw much evil and hoplessness. But see God did not start evil that was a free will choice even the angels in heaven have that choice. Thus we have lucifer former angel of music...the most beautiful and most powerful angel. His ways have never changed. He operates through lust of the eyes Lust of the flesh and PRIDE! He is winning many souls through the deconverted!

Love to all, I am going to sleep now. Until the day we turn into putrid slime(let's see the Merciful Three resurect that...), we should all be civil to one another, not speak of dying for faith. Like I said before, religion is evil and an abomination, it separates people from one another, it creates anguish and havoc, it is anachronistic.

Ok john, I'm gonna make one last comment and then go to sleep, I don't want this turning into a flame war or anything like that. I'm really tired, anyhow. What solid evidence do you have for the actual existence of these characters and their traits-Lucifer, etc. I mean outside of the well known mythological fairy tales? Anything in actual reality? When you can substantiate some, I'm sure all the "fellow" "atheists" on this site will believe you, after all, evidence cannot be ignored. Until then, Have a good night.

P.S. Again, it is logically incorect to assume that because there is horrible suffering in prisons or anywhere else there occurs evil, that is due to the existence of a mythological figure. All claims you make are ...make-believe.

To Hurt>>>> The last thing I would ever want to do is start an argument, that is not my purpose at all. I guess the beat thing to say is if we understood God and could explain God he would not be much of a God. He is infinite and our minds are finite. But know this it is a fact that something acn't come from nothing. Soething had to create it.

Hurt by the absentee landlord... wrote:
"To screwedbyatheists:
and one more thing: I may not be able to prove that God does not exist, because there is so much that escapes our observation, but anybody can prove the immorality of this God, if it exists, just read the "good" book and then also become aware of all suffering ever experienced by all creatures since the beginning of life on this planet. Become aware of the food chain. only an evil, diabolical entity, if it existed would think of that"

Dan says: Yea Hurt, the one most glaring proof that a moral God, (at least as far as we puny humans define moral), does not exist or never created us, is the immoral way life is designed in the first place.

We are alive today only because every one of our ancestors, all the way back to the first creatures that crawled out of the slime, were the best at killing, eating, and reproducing (F-----g), and it is still going on today.

Nothing tastes better to me than a cheese burger or a chicken tender, and as we speak there are probably a million preachers out there who are trying to get into the panties of one of their flock, or if they aren't doing that, they are figuring out how they can steal more money from them.

I have never seen one Christian on this site, or ever heard one in my life, speak of the agony or suffering of the trillion or so creatures that had to die and are dying every day, so that we may live.

I have read comments from several Atheists and Agnostics addressing this problem, But Christians are in total denial when it comes to understanding natural selection, and survival of the fittest. They talk of Christian empathy and love, but totally ignore the fact that if it weren't for the absolute tyranny and ruthlessness of a few ancient Roman rulers, Christianity would have faded into history just like all the Pagan religions that spawned it.

Any Christian reading this, if you eat meat, just visualize a slaughter house with all the innocent animals waiting in line to be murdered, and hung on a hook, and processed assembly line style.

Think about who will be happy today, the strong, the rich, the healthy, the secure, the well fed, the beautiful, the intelligent, NOT the dumb, the ugly, the starving, the mistreated, the sick, the poor, and the weak. Does this look like the work of a moral God?

Dan (Realist, Agnostic, Omnivore)

ARRRGGHHHH>>>>> THEY DISAGREE WITH ME! ARRRGHHH I'M BEING PERSECUTED!!! AAAAAHHHHH>>>>>

John, this is no more than a forum for the exchange of thoughts and reasons for belief or non-belief in Christianity. Melodrama like yours is for the stage and screen...and most pulpits.

This is a site for encouraging those who have left or are considering leaving Christianity. If you come here to preach, do you really expect placid agreement? Grow up.

"Ya'll would not be sodefensive if you did not thimk Tabitha to be right!"

If I say Allah and Islam are bullshit, do I therefore think the Muslim religion is truth? If I shake my head in disgust at gun-toting fanatics in the Middle East, am I admitting to faith in the Koran?

Let me ask y'all something: isn't that one of the dumbest comments y'all have ever seen?

Thank y'all for sharing.

John said: "But know this it is a fact that something acn't come from nothing. Soething had to create it"

Argumentum ad ignorantium: I can't understand all the mysteries of the Universe, therefore God exists.

John, if something can't come from nothing, and God is something, then God doesn't exist. Now if you say God is nothing, well, then we agree.

So which is it? Is God something or is HE nothing?

We are contingent beings and Gond is a non-contigent being. YA"LL !!
I love YA"LL that is the only reson I am posting. Other wise I would not care. I gain or lose nothing if you do anyway.

Dear hurt one; I appreciate your response, but you misundertand me.

I have doubts, yes, but my doubts are about atheism.

I don't know if I have enough faith to be an atheist anymore.

If I give up atheism, my atheist family will disown me.

What should I do>

Dear webmaster Dave,
How did you get into my head some 23 years ago and show me the ex-christian way? I cannot believe you are taking me to hell with you! Your website has lead me away from jesus long before there was even a website! How did you accomplish this feat? Are you some kind of deity also?

All bow to WebMASTER Dave!!!

Today, I shall worship Saturn!

I carpool with a guy who claims to be somewhat of a Christian, but he cracks me up because he states he would never give one fucking dime of his hard earned money to any religious institution, local or otherwise. I love his philosipy. What would happen if all of a sudden the morons of this world stopped fueling the Billy Grahams, Benny Hinns, and Pat Robertsons of this world? These guys claim to be about the message. I bet if the money and power dried up, the message would be gone. Why do fucking idiots continue to support these assholes? I do find it ironic that Billy Graham's all mighty god is taking him out so slowly with Parkinson's.

christians are evil.
: Apart from the contstant abuse and preaching from Christians, a family of five including two children have recently been beheaded with machetes in a village in northern India by Christians. They were suspected of witchcraft (which is intrinsically good) but in fact the father was just a spiritual healer.

Unfortunately you can't see Christ, but through Christ filled Christians. But many say they are and really aren't evil knows no limits it seems. Christians are Christians worst enemies sometimes.
Christians are suppose to Loveand thats it. Man I use to be very hateful and love to fight at the drop of a hat. You didn't need to preach or teach me nothing. But then He broke me.... Thanks Be To God!!So I can relate to most all the comments on this site but I do know this Loving Jesus is a whole lot better than not. Don't sweat people the will always disappoint you. Man I have been in alot of place with a lot of bad folks and I have seen the Lord prove himself to me time and time again. But don't be angry and get all fired up because thats what that old devil wants.

Great. Tabitha, why not paint a target on yourself and go hunting? It would amount to the same thing as posting what you did on this web site.

No one on this site is going to go back to Christianity. The few Christians that do post here are slammed and I think that unless you have tremendous faith you are better off avoiding this site completely.

I’m a Christian (target painted :D) and I’m not here to change anyone’s mind. Try this web site => http://www.seriousfaith.com

It is by far, safer for you. Leave theses sites to the tough Christians. Dust your sandals off and don’t return.

The Catholic Heretic

muttmutt1978:

Get your facts straight. According to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4822750.stm) these villagers were not identified as being any particular faith. I bet you think it's a cover up, huh?

TCH

BTW: Before you get all uppity
http://www.india-facts.com/indianterrorism/currentevents/article0000100.php
http://washtimes.com/upi/20060319-044302-8610r.htm
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/southasia/printer_1148405.php

Putting Billy Graham in the same category as Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson is insulting to Billy.

BG has only sporadically been involved in politics--in fact, according to Wiki, he's a Democrat. That eliminates him from the Religious Right category altogether, since the RRs generally view supporting the GOP as a religious obligation.

Benny Hinn, on the other hand, is an out-and-out con artist. Pat Robertson is slightly higher on the food chain due to some of his relief work, but he's also more than a little nuts where it comes to politics.

mq59,
Please look at that piece of shit son BG has raised!!!!
He is the spitting image of Pat Robertson. No moderation for Franklin now is there?! He condemns anyone and everyone who is not of the same ilk!

Therefore, Billy Graham is a failure!

As far as to who said that natural disasters are God's judgement are concerned, both mq59 and the anonymous that said it was Billy Graham who said that "natural disaster=God's judgement" are both wrong. It was actually a certain preacher by the name of Fred Phelps who said it, and who runs a "Christian" website that uses language that one would not expect from your average "Christian" website. While I don't exactly consider myself an "ex-Christian", some aspects of it, such as the numerous sects, warring doctrines, etc., do bother me. Somewhere in the Bible, we are told that "narrow is the way". Yet, numerous churches/sects are quite convinced that their particular flavor of "narrow" is best. In one church, which shall remain nameless, the men wear these black suits and no ties, whereas the women all wear these long gray dresses that cover them from neck to wrist to ankle, and no jewelry or makeup, or any other "ornamentation. They dress that way every single solitary day no matter what. Jehovah's Witnesses not only do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, or any other holidays for that matter, they don't even celebrate birthdays. Oh, and get this, they believe that Jesus died on a stake, NOT a cross. (This one really left me scratching my head). I could go on, but that'd take forever. The Bible has probably been redone so many times that it is not even funny.(It is not cool for God's words to be constantly tampered with). I have yet to find a verse in the Bible that says "Thou shalt (or shalt not) be a (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Mennonite, or fill-in-the-blank here). I don't wish to scorn or condemn any of you "ex-Christians". Part of me doesn't really blame you for not wanting anything to do with Christianity anymore. I'm not trying to win anyone back to the Christian faith nor swearing it off. Though, for all I know, every "Christian" writing could someday turn out to be full of, well, you know. I hope to examine this matter further. There's my two cents worth. Take from it what you will.

Franklin Graham? The guy who runs Samaritan's Purse and does food-lifts to Darfur?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Graham

So he criticized Islam. Big deal.

So did Sam Harris, who wrote a book that all but advocated outlawing the Abrahamic religions, and I don't see anyone picking on him.

And if you look at the CNN transcript, you'll see that he said specifically NOT to pick on people of Middle Eastern heritage after 9/11.

Franklin Graham is scum! Here's a website, one of many, that discusses the true purpose of his "humanitarian" efforts.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cajee04112003.html

Anonymous,

I said that Billy Graham did not claim natural disasters were God's judgment.

Thanks for the backup though.

Bonnie,

Is there any proof that FG or any other Christian missionaries have denied food to poor Muslims unless they convert?

Or denied shelter and medical care to Muslim rape victims from the Bosnian War unless they convert?

No. Methinks they got food, shelter, whatever either way.

Obviously the missionaries would have tried to convert them, but if they rejected Christianity, they would still be fed, sheltered, etc.

If the missionaries pulled something like what I described above, the media would trumpet it from the rooftops. Look at how the stupid things that Pat Robertson et al say get lots of publicity--stupid things conservative Christians DO would get even more.

Notice how, other than Josh Llane (who is obviously misbehaving), the writer provided no specific examples.

OK I feel a little bad being critical of Billy Graham, but let's face it, he has become a very rich and powerful force in the name of God though other other peoples money. Guys like Billy don't beg for money like the Benny Hinns of the world, but that's the pure genius of it all. He doesn't have to. I bet when that guy travels he doesn't have to pay for a thing.

xrayman - You are only partially correct when you said Billy Graham doesn't beg for money. This sentence is missing a word for the truth is, Billy Graham doesn't beg for money ANY MORE. He used to, but cut it out sometime in the early 1990s, when he had conned the suckers for all he needed - though there are some who still donate to the cause, "a fool and his money are soon parted" still being apropo.

How did Graham go about begging for money pre-1990s? Did he have collection plates at the Crusades or solicit churches for donations?

Perhaps he stopped begging for money in the early 1990s b/c he no longer needed extra cash to keep the evangelism campaign going. The operation could have become self-sustaining (royalties from his books, or advertising during TV-broadcast Crusades or something).

Albert Einstein’s equation states that Energy = Mass x C2. The law of physics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Which means the energy that created the universe cannot have a beginning nor an end. Also, there must be something that existed before the universe and that will continue to exist after the universe. That is the definition of God.

By applying Albert Einstein’s formula, the universe must have a creator because the universe has mass (M). God does not need a creator because God does not have mass (M). God is energy (E).

Thus when people ask the question, “If God created mankind, who created God?”, they mistakenly imagine God as having a form or mass. Only mass needs a creator, not energy.

The creator of mass is of course, energy. The theory of God’s existence is in line with mathematical theory.

Because the 3-Axis geometry of the body is caused by the 3-Axis geometry of real-space, the curvature in Psychometry space is obviously caused by the curvature in real space, which is known to be “Gravity”. Hence, “Gravity causes God” and the whole theory of God is identical to the theory of Relativity. The Metrical identity [XYZt]=[ENPg] immediately yield’s God=Guv. QED, there is a real God.



Here’s Godel’s Ontological Proof (which uses Modal Logic):

We first assume the following axiom:

Axiom 1: It is possible to single out positive properties from among all properties. Gödel defines a positive property rather vaguely: “Positive means positive in the moral aesthetic sense (independently of the accidental structure of the world)… It may also mean pure attribution as opposed to privation (or containing privation).” (Gödel 1995)

We then assume that the following three conditions hold for all positive properties (which can be summarized by saying “the positive properties form an ultrafilter”):

Axiom 2: If P is positive and P entails Q, then Q is positive.
Axiom 3: If P1, P2, P3, …, Pn are positive properties, then the property (P1 AND P2 AND P3 … AND Pn) is positive as well.
Axiom 4: If P is a property, then either P or its negation is positive, but not both.

Finally, we assume:

Axiom 5: Necessary existence is a positive property (Pos(NE)). This mirrors the key assumption in Anselm’s argument.

Now we define a new property G: if x is an object in some possible world, then G(x) is true if and only if P(x) is true in that same world for all positive properties P. G is called the “God-like” property. An object x that has the God-like property is called God.

John:
I didn't know energy could think? From what basis in math did you get that?

God is not energy. Energy cannot think and it cerainly cannot create anything other than chunks of matter. Look up creation of matter. It is totally random.

TCH

here’s a proof from a Medieval Monk named Guido Ubaldus:

0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + …
= (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + …
= 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + …
= 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + …
= 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + …
= 1

John:

Never assume.

Wow you've done it John. Because of what you have proven. I now believe in God again. He is really real. Thank you so much. I'll be in church tomorrow. You have succeed where all the others have failed on this site. I am now officially reconverted. Praise the Larwd. Hallaluya !!!!!

The Big Bang’s Big Problems

Although the big bang theory brings science closer to the Bible’s account of origins it certainly has its problems.

Firstly, the idea of a universe beginning with a big bang goes against empirical science and the laws of physics. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics has shown that energy and matter remain constant. They can be transferred from one into the other but neither can appear from nothing. Even basic common sense and logic tells us that it is obvious that something can simply not come from nothing. Where did matter come from? Scientists are unable to say where the matter that existed to create the big bang came from. The Bible tells us that a supernatural being called God brought it into being (Gen. 1:1).

Up until the time of Louis Pasteur (a scientist who was also a creationist), in the 19th century, science believed in spontaneous generation. People believed that living things could be produced from non-living things. Pasteur disproved this theory in 1859. As well as this, Pasteur also established the theory of biogenesis; that life can only come from already pre-existing life. Today, atheistic scientists stubbornly teach a form of spontaneous generation: that living matter arose in the universe from non-living matter (abiogenesis - life from non-life)! Christians, however, have maintained the scientific principle that life can only come from life (i.e. God).

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that the everything in the universe is running down and decaying. But to believe in a big bang would mean that the opposite is true: out of chaos order came into being and rather than decaying and becoming more disorderly, life and the universe is becoming more orderly. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics refutes this. The Bible, far from being at odds with science (as some have erroneously been led to believe), actually tells us that the universe is running down and becoming more disorderly just as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has revealed (Isa. 51:6; Ps. 102:25-26; Rom. 8:21).

Secondly, what existed outside the matter that exploded in the big bang?

Thirdly, what was it that caused the bang? An effect always has a cause. What was the spark that lit the fuse? The Christian answer to this great first cause is God.

Fourthly, how can such order and complexity that we see in the universe and living things be created from such a disorder as a big bang? Common sense tells us that an big explosion results in a big mess. No one would argue that a work of art came about as the result of an explosion in a paint factory. The Bible tells us that the design of the universe that exists all around us is evidence of an intelligent designer (Ps. 19:1-4; Rom. 1:20).

Although the theory of the big bang brings us closer to the Biblical view of origins (that the universe has a beginning) it still falls short of explaining the complexity of the universe and the origin of life and matter. The Biblical account of the creation does not face these difficulties and makes much more sense than atheistic naturalistic explanations. The bottom line is many people put forward big theories like the big bang in an attempt to exclude God from the picture. To admit the existence of God means that people know that they must give an account of themselves to Him one day. The Bible says that the existence of God is obvious by what He has created and that people try and suppress the truth in unrighteousness:


"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though th