You still don't get it. WHAT God? What evidence do you have for the existance of ANY god, much less yours.

You have the buy-bull wrong too. Your "jesus christ" said that the "old testament" - the Hebrew scripture - remained in effect. This makes sense, since jc was simply a reforming rabbi, preaching some form of judyism (can't help the pun...), not starting a new religion. (That came later...)

And Leviticus most definitely is against all sorts of things, including homosexuality.

So get your head straight and actually READ the nonsense you purport to support. We all have... and probably know it better than you seem to.

Pastor, ALL religions are man made and man altered. I suspect you already know that so I'm wasting my time. Cheers,

Pastor,

I understand your good intentions. My heart goes out to you because you are trying so hard to make Christianity work.

But Christianity doesn't work.

What drove me out of it was, among many other things, that I met plenty of loving, compassionate people who weren't Christians. The more atheistic they were the more unconditionally and unselfishly they were able to love me.

In Christian churches, all I received was judgement, even though I was, perhaps, a much better and committed Christian than they were. I know for sure I have read the bible more times than most Christians I know, and I have spent more hours praying than most as well.

So, we don’t need God to be loving, pastor. We just have to listen to ourselves and be logical.

Good luck to you, pastor,

Lorena

Last time I checked, Christianity IS a religion.

It's like the faithful have been programmed so that any time their religion is attacked, their response is: "What you are talking about is 'Religion', not Christianity. TRUE Christianity is a relationship, not a religion."

Christianity IS a religion. Get over it!

It's like if someone attacks your position, you just change the definition of what you are so that their attack no longer applies to you. "You see, it's not CHRISTIANITY you're attacking - it's RELIGION. Now we can all go back to being happy again."

Rev. Denny thats fine if want to believe in a god, we just do not believe that a god talks to people, like little voices and a god that directs people to worship him. What kind of god would want worship in the first place? A man's weak god would, like the kind you find in the bible. I'd say pretty much everyone here that posts on a regular basis has mostly rejected the bible god as being false. There are christians and preachers that come on here and say they have spoke to god. How can this be, when the bible has been translated over 1600 times, when did this god learn to speak the English language? If the bible is the absolute word of god and it had to be translated over 1600 times, how can it be the absolute word of god? We've decided that there cannot exist a god such as the one in the bible to be as dumb and stupid as the one depicted in the bible, if you wan to believe in what a man wrote down on tablets from his current prospective 2000 years ago, that's your perogative, and we wish you well, but we have examined the teachings and the hypocrisy of all religions and have decided it was all false.

You really need to read much further on this website before you make any decisions on whether you want to cast us off into the make believe Hell.

Listen Rev. Denny, we were all raised in here in America and everyone of us, you included have been exposed to some form of religion, Why? Why? Because the bible and religion was brought over here on a ship, Jesus and God never walked over here on their own, God and Jesus was transported over here in a book to America.

Prier to 1492, the Native American Indians, had no previous knowledge of God and Jesus and survived quite well thank you, before the whiteman brought religion and his savior on a stick over here to America. There was not one church on American soil, now look at how the virus of religion is spreading like wildfire, there is a church of practically every denomination on every street corner. Now the American Indians had no need of a bible god or Jesus and they were called Heathren Savages and carried no human value, so most of them were killed in the name of religion and god.

Now here we are in 2006 and god and Jesus still serve no purpose to anyone except to the preachers that willing accept money for their services.

Now go pray for us and tell us we are all going to hell, and that we never were saved to begin with and that your religion and beliefs are the true religion and that you talk to god on a regular basis.

Have a great day in your lord.

Dear Ex-Christians,

Carefully watch what this pastor is trying to do. "It's not your mother's church"...hmmm. If I were a pastor I would probably be trying to re-invent myself (along with my religion) and create nifty slogans to distance myself from the jackasses who currently represent modern fundamentalism. That includes the crazies in our government who implement the agenda of the christian-wrong.

Pastor, what you propose is not fair. You are asking that the self-love that we have been denied by centuries of self-minimalization taught by the christian faith be cast-off willy-nilly so that we can join your flavor of the same poison.

This is your mission statement:

"Vision Statement
We believe that lost people matter to God, and, therefore, must matter to us.
We believe that people in need matter to God, and, therefore, must matter to us.
We believe that community matters to god, and, therefore, must matter to us.
We believe that reaching out in love matters to God, and, therefore, must matter to us."

You assume that your community has "Lost" people who must be "found" (may I assume "Saved"). Thanks, I was lost (in religion) and now I have found my way.

I was born okay the first time.

I am just learning how to love myself...

Hey, leave Denny alone. He's happy in the lord, and will no doubt give all of his money to the poor and go to one of the third world countries and volunteer to help the poor people that God has forgotten about.

He loves himself, God and everybody else, and I'm sure that he want's to get to heaven, so he must hate this life and start preparing for paradise.

It won't be long before he realizes that playing pastor and duping his congregation out of their hard earned money is just too shallow. I feel certain that he will give up the comfort of his home soon and go live with the dope addicts, diseased, malformed, stupid, and vicious criminals who need his love more than the nice people in suburbia. Maybe he can even get the Lord to help.
Dano

Fellow Ex-Christians,

Here is Pastor Denny's welcome message on their website:

"Welcome!
We are a small church, in the big city,
but don't worry about room, we have plenty.

Just come on by, if only to say "hi".
We'll tell you about Jesus and the reason He died.

We are a church who truly cares,
and if you ever need us we promise to be there.

We know it's hard to sometimes fit in,
but we are not perfect, we too have sinned.

So why not begin again,
with the help of a new friend?"

Sounds like they might welcome gays, etc. - as long as you admit that you are a sinner. Salvation from what? Salvation from our nasty sinfull nature that we were born with, of course!

I say again:

I was born okay the first time!!!

Sorry for the on-slaught of posts, but this just gets more and more fun. Check out some of the lesson plans for this church:

http://occog.com/my-journal/

Damn... Nice Try Pastor - you are just a reinvention of the same fundamentalist crap that pollutes our country!!!!

Here's one of the topics on that site :-)

October 26, 2005
Wednesday Nite: Angels & Demons #2

"Dr. Vernon McGee writes: “All I know is that man was made a little lower than the angels, and through redemption man was lifted into a place of fellowship with God, a position above the angels. We are going to be above the angels. We are going to judge them and have charge of them.”"
http://occog.com/my-journal/archives/cat_wednesday_nite_studies.html#000042

Its all about "Power" and Reward in religion... If we are good servants (slaves) to the lord (to the clergy) here, then, or course we are going to be rewarded with "angelic" slaves in heaven... Talk about having a morality issue in heaven, I suppose the Angels can't band together and create a Declaration of Independence from the big house of Tyranny... oh, that's right, some did rebel, and were kicked out... according to these immoral evangelists...

"God created all angels as holy ones. He chose to place some angelic orders above others. Not all enjoyed the same position or responsibility in relation to God’s plan for them."

I suppose you have to have your sanitation angels, and their positions... while other angels get the more prestigious positions...

"The most favored angel we know as Satan. Satan, along with other angels, was thrown out of heaven. All of these angels are under Satan’s direction and are the unholy angels, or the evil ones."

Okay, god created only Holy Angels, but Satan is the most favored Angel... I wonder how many third graders this guy is going to teach, that are going to raise their hands, and ask, how that is possible.

Hi Rev. Denny,

You should have included the bible in your list of man made man altereds, and no, I don't love god or jesus, how can I love something I don"t believe exists? I do, however, love my family, some close friends, myself, and people in general, and I do what I can for those who are less fortunate. Most importantly, I am able to do all this without a supreme being telling me I have to or I will burn forever in hell.

Why do so many people take one look at this website and assume that they know everything about every one of us, inluding our innermost thoughts and experiences?

I just don´t disagree with religion.
I disagree with all christian moral and values.
I don´t belive in Jaweh, Jesus Christ, "Virgen Maria" or any of the saints.

If any of you all "atheists" read this, note that by not beliving in a god there is no fundamentation for any moral or christian values.

Christianity is not only a religion is much much more than that. Its a value and moral system.

Pls read, read and read.

"If any of you all "atheists" read this, note that by not beliving in a god there is no fundamentation for any moral or christian values."

That depends on how you define "moral values".

well, i personally don't care about the religous people. and atheists just pick on christianity because it rears it's bloated head the most.

i don't care if you love jesus, but i can't help but to think of people who love and serve him too. like the KKK. wonderful people :|

Right wing moral values, let's see:

Bilk millions of dollars from the elderly and the poor under the guise of a TV ministry for donations for starving people in (Africa, India, you name it). Use the money to put air-conditioning units on your doghouses. Talk the gullible church secretary into having sex with you. Jim Baker is still on TV.

Masturbate to a prostitute. While this may seem like a reasonably safe encounter with a prostitute, it flies in the face of your preaching about evil "fornicators". I wonder if your wife thought you were a fornicator: Jimmy Swaggert, still on TV.

Killing innocent Iraqis after duping Congress members and citizens that there was a urgent and immediate threat. Fixing the intelligence around your selfish desire.

War Profiteering

Using your position as a religious leader to help a sleazy lobbyist screw two indian gaming concerns out of millions of dollars. God knows we have always treated Native Americans fairly with Christian Moral values through-out the centuries.

This could go on forever.

Shove your "christian" moral values where the "sun don't shine".

Everyone, sing together:

"Imagine there's no country,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
and no religion to..."

Now just wait a minute folks, I want to join Mr. Denny's church, cause I have a heavy heart, my heart aches for God, I must get my heart right with God, I must surrender my heart to God, I must turn the rudder of my heart towards God, and my heart cries out to God, but first I must give Jesus the keys to my heart, then I must open the door to my heart, and invite God into my heart, then I must open the eyes of my heart, then I must let God touch my heart, then I must let God speak to my heart, then let God bless my heart, let God soothe my heart, let God heal my heart, and then my soul will be saved by grace, through faith, etc, ___________________________________(add your own bullshit here)

What I can't understand if God is real, why do you need faith? What good is faith? Faith just gets in the way?

Well folks what we have here is just another brainless gray matter sucked out fundy. Amen?

I like the Indian example...where did the bible god and jesus come from and how did they get here?
Since there were lots of other people living all over the world, why did god not see to it that every person got an equal chance to be saved by a god in disguise as jesus and what took god so long to come up with the jesus salvation plan? What kind of idiot god are we talking about here?

The Indians certainly knew not of this god, are Indians, human beings too? Are Indians and blacks less human than whites?

Was jesus white or black?

I believe jesus was white, because it was white people that brought jesus over here.

Tammy said...

"I believe jesus was white, because it was white people that brought jesus over here."

1/12/2006 8:45 PM

Yeah Tammy, they smuggled him over in the blankets, with the small-pox!!!

Hi Reverend. My first time on this site as well, & guess I believe you could be right for me anyway, & guess it was nice to see a Reverend that doesn't seem to be into all the judgements. It appears many of the others are more suspect of you, & maybe they have reason, but I don't. I do believe religion, i.e. Christainity has been twisted, & manipulated for a very long time, & if you mean the things you are saying about loving one's neighbor, it does appear the regulars on here feel the exact same way, without any requirements of a God or a religion. I do believe there is a God, and JC, but the message is very simple, and all the detail work our society is putting into the rules & reg's are quite simply B.S. I do thank you for your post, & wish there were more of you, for I for one am doubting anything to do with Christainity with the shennigans of the Christain right in this country. Their "freedom" of religion allowed in our country is becoming a requirement for everyone else, & often times I feel bludgoned by their beliefs, & superior attitudes, & guess that is what you mean that they don't want to be on the same level of everyone else. All I know is everyday I feel that I am locked in a nightmare that won't end, titled "Christainity."

Of all places available all over the world, why did god choose the Middle East to have his bible inspired?

Answer: The Opium capital of the world, even to this very day.

Opium poppy has been broadly associated with cultures of the Near East, e.g., Turkey. Nonetheless, recent studies of archaeological and written records suggest that the plant originated elsewhere. In fact, it now appears that the species is native to southern France, Spain, and northwestern Africa. There is a cave site in southern Spain, dated at 5500 B.C., in which intact capsules of opium poppy were found in a religious artifact.

Need one say more?

Denny,
I haven't the necessary amount of toes and fingers to count the "living gods" of this world. Dave8, can you help me on the number please.

I am so tired of people not seeking the proper psychological help they need to heal their emotional deficiencies. It is incredible that they resort to such mind bending unrealistic delusions of a "personal savior".

God only helps those who help themselves. In other words, get off your lazy ass and get your life in order you lazy bastards!

Gallee I feel gawd a tugging on my heartstrings...dohhhhh

We don't want to be lied to, even if you think it is for our own good.

Bob, Right wing moral values indeed, speaking of which, if you think the worst has happened in regards to corruption in our government, stay tuned for the new and improved supreme court and the rulings we and our children will be living with for the next 25-30 years. I have been listening non stop this evening to the hearings, and commentary afterwards. I hope I am just paranoid, but I have a very bad feeling about where things are headed, especially for women in the USA. It wasn't hard for me to understand from reading Mr. Alito's dissentions, past rulings, and personal writings, and listening to him the past few days skirt around important issues, that he shows no regard or respect for women.

Thanks to god, Sam, and GWB, women will have to fight twice as hard to keep from being hurled back into the dark ages.

freeman: "I haven't the necessary amount of toes and fingers to count the "living gods" of this world. Dave8, can you help me on the number please."

Hello freeman, I have a reference book that has a pretty thorough listing, however, they don't give the number of gods, and the book is a few inches thick :-)

However, I went to this web site:

http://www.eskimo.com/~elladan/gods/

I cut and pasted the web page into an excel spreadsheet, and removed the title header rows, and... there were 4,938 gods listed. I am not sure its all inclusive, but, it does go to show that the same natural objects were worshipped by different cultures, and they all believed they had the truth. The truth, is they were all worshipping nature, especially the Indians... Each culture seemed to determine the personality, meaning, and expectations of what these natural objects wanted from them, in order to keep peace and harmony, others just worshipped their natural objects without imposing requirements for the worshipper... There is not "one" transcendent "god" listed among these gods provided, that doesn't have a "Natural", description using Nature... In short, the gods started from man's observations of "nature", and where given attributes, to include where they "resided", i.e., in what "reality"... This Natural Universe as part of Nature, or some Metaphysical Objective Reality, where only "perfect" gods live...

Still, all gods take a Natural form, because mankind can't describe something they state exists in an alternate reality, while they are still in this natural universe...

While we are at it, El was a western semitic (Jewish) creator god, of Syria, Lebanon, and Israel, worshipped from 2500BCE until 700BCE, and was modelled after the god of the Canaanites "Il", and was represented by a bull calf, hence the worshipping of the golden calf. Biblical texts trasform El as meaning "lord". The northern tribes of Judah, used El as their creator name, however, the southern state of Judah wanted to pressure them to change the name to YHWH. Still, the northern state of Judah kept the name El, until the north was suppressed by Tiglathpileses II from Assyria.

There was an overlap between the North and South Judah states, as they worshipped their creator god. South Judah, even though El (bull calf), was still being worshipped by the North, created YHWH 1200BCE-Present as El died off from Assyrian oppression in Northern Judah. Of course, this Creator God, was one in a long line of creator gods, the Egyptian deity Atum (Aten), 15th century BCE was a likely model.

So, YWHW eventually superseded the Nothern god El, to become supreme deity of Israel. Interestingly, enough, during the period of the Hellenic occupation, the sanctuary of YHWH on Mount Gerizim in Samaria (Northern Kingdom of Judah) was re-dedicated to Zeus.

The old testament writings, particularly the psalms, are littered with references indicating acceptance of many gods in the pantheon. Translators, over time, have substituted eupemisms such as "saints" and "holy men". And, we all know that YHWH, as accepted as a universal deity facilitated the further morphing into the Arabic arena as Allah in Islamic tradition 300BCE-Present. Well, thus ends todays' reading from;

"Dictionary of Gods And Goddesses", authored by Michael Jordan, and published by Checkmark Books...

Thank you for that wake-up call, Reverend, You're quite right; these shallow things are nothing to do with the real message of God:

Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary (1911)

Seriously, and because you seem nice enough. Sorry for the cheap point-scoring. The truth is, it's not just the fact that we have troubles with religion; it's just that we don't need imaginary friends. And nor do you.

Hi Madbuni,

It is all hubris. They have become so emboldened, drunk with power, with their "mandate" from the christian-wrong that they do not even feel like they owe the Senate an answer to their appropriate questions, much less an honest one. I'm sure Alito was coached to just sit quite. What ever you do Alito, never admit to your membership and promotion of your racist/sexist alumnae assocation.

In college, I heard about the subjugation of various peoples by "white men in ties". A woman's right to her own body is quickly erroding.

White (men) Superiority - the king of their "christian" moral values:

God placed man above woman.

God punished Noah's son for laughing at his father's naked body, thus turning the son's skin dark. That was a "theory" floating around the fundys during the sixties explaining why whites were superior to blacks. Blacks had been cursed - by GOD!

Manifest destiny and the need to convert the "pointy-headed" heathens to christianity. Boy, millions died over that one.

The Crusades, which not only killed Arabs, but tens of thousands of jews. Why? Because they were responsible for killing Jesus. King George has declared "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile." Are we still on his first crusade or is Iraq the Second crusade? Will the second/third Crusade be Iran? They are the fourth largest oil producing country. Today, we were warned that Iran is advancing its nuclear program... Sound familiar?

Along with the other christian moral values that I mentioned in an earlier comment, this one could go on forever.

Hey, christians who lurk around here - you have egg on your tie!!! Stop with the justification for christianity because it brings moral values to the world. I don't like your moral values. They just don't strike me as, oh, I don't know, MORAL!

Atheists have better values, they're actually a lot more moral and "christ-like". Personal responsibility requires self-examination. You can't blame God, or the devil, or evil men misrepresenting your cherished religion. If you aren't moral, it is your fault and you need to fix yourself.

Stop the Apocolypse by stopping the religious nuts who are bringing it on themselves.

You should have to pass a sanity test before you are given the trigger for nuclear annihilation.

Thanks again, good people!

islgrl wrote:

"All I know is everyday I feel that I am locked in a nightmare that won't end, titled "Christianity."

posted: 1/12/2006 9:06 PM EST

Take care, Love. I had the same nightmare for many decades. I woke up from that nightmare.

I feel much better now.

Religion has had its impact on all people of all races, genders, sexual orientations, etc.

Latter Day Saints (LDS), Mormons:
The First Presidency of the church in 1947 said: “From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel.” (Letter from the First Presidency of the Mormon Church, July 17, 1947, as cited in Mormonism and the Negro, by John J. Stewart, 1960, pages 46-47)

The Book Of Mormon:
“And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse, upon them because of their transgression.” (Alma 3:6; 2 Nephi 5:21)

BRIGHAM YOUNG
(Second Prophet and President of the Mormon Church)

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the Children of men, that they may not call scripture!" Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 95.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, ad seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be and the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then other curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they would be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, pages 290 291

"Nevertheless, the firm Mormon teaching that a whole race of people are "cursed with a black skin" for sins committed by them before they were born remains to this very day, no announcement or "revelation" has removed it."
http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/africanamerican.htm

"After the LDS church granted the priesthood to “all” worth male members in June 1978, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated: “...it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsover has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness....It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year (1978).” (“All Are Alike Unto God,” pp.1-2)"
http://www.letusreason.org/LDS22.htm

Well, having attended many LDS services, I can honestly say, that if the doctrine presented wasn't practiced vehemently, the non-diversity of the church was definitely a message to me. The Mormons of today, are attempting to seek out new african american members and converts to show their diversity and cover their history.

Humor, at least they have a Modern Day Prophet, who can change doctrine with a pen, a religion based on "change" and "relativism". Very forward thinking, to have a religion that can withstand time and change by an ongoing change of doctrine. It beats using doctrine which becomes outdated and ridiculous. At least the Mormon strategy, per their founder, presented a manner of keeping up with cultural change... However, the Absolutist Christians (fundamentalists) don't much care for the wishy washy change concept. They still want women repressed per the bible, absolutely and for all time.

---------------------
Ben wrote:

Of all places available all over the world, why did god choose the Middle East to have his bible inspired?

Answer: The Opium capital of the world, even to this very day.

Opium poppy has been broadly associated with cultures of the Near East, e.g., Turkey. Nonetheless, recent studies of archaeological and written records suggest that the plant originated elsewhere. In fact, it now appears that the species is native to southern France, Spain, and northwestern Africa. There is a cave site in southern Spain, dated at 5500 B.C., in which intact capsules of opium poppy were found in a religious artifact.

Need one say more?

posted: 1/12/2006 9:11 PM EST
---------------------

Well, crap. Religion really IS the opium of the masses!

I have a problem with christian churches because they are like bar owners. They will slam every other bar on the street and say WE are different because we are not a bar, we are a PUB. The problem is that people go to bars. They should come to our PUB instead.

And yet if you look at what they are serving up it is the same. They just like to call it a different name.

It is the same with legalism. Every Pastor knows WHAT legalism is and every Pastor declares that they are not legalistic. Then they call other Pastors legalistic. It is deceptive.

"...The Christianity you are debunking is as far as I can tell man-made and man-altered."

Nope.
I was a loner christian for several years before I finally dumped it. The only thing I followed was the bible and Martin Luthers idea of "every man being his own priest before God".
My parents warned me with verses about the body of christ and fellowship, etc. but I maintained that "It's between me and God".
The church I had left was full of fundamentalist legalism and a hypocritical memebership - so I dumped it, - but Note: I did not leave christianity itself for several more years.
I'm not that thick as to not realise that 'it's only the teachings of Jesus that matter'.
I believed the bible was the inerrant 'Word of God' inspired by the 'Holy Spirit'.
I believed that anybody who wasn't a christian just hadn't been shown it properly, and that any contradictions they thought they saw in the bible could be properly explained.
Except I had never heard the word 'apologetics' until I got online... (thanks to the congregation I was in).
I always thought I had nothing to fear, because I knew was totally honest and that the bible was totally true.
When I saw online that there were actual contradictions, and that the christian 'explanations' were more like pathetic excuses I was shaken.
Of course I was concerned about this being the tricks of the devil trying to lure me away, etc. and so I researched more and more - but I was only convinced more and more.
I was eventually confident enough to admit that the bible is ingenious but ultimately pathetic.
It's the bible itself that is completely man-made and man altered.
It describes a completely human god - flawed and vindictive, totally unworthy of worship.
My own flawed mortal self has better values and could come up with better solutions to the worlds problems than he had.
Rather than fear and deny I actually felt excited.

That feeling is not a trick of the devil. It's called Freedom, and I can never be dragged back into bondage.

This post is specifically for Tammy. I would like to address some of the concerns you brought up. Your analogy of the indians may be a bit off. I have worked with tribes around the world, and every one of them...with and without missionary involvement do believe in a "great spirit" yet do not worship Him because their spirits (yes, the do talk to spirits: for instance the Yanamamoo indians in Venezuela have Jaguar Spirit, Anaconda Spirit, and the like) tell them that he is too hot, or eats the souls of children or what not. So to make a statement that the Indians of this culture did not know of said God is simply an opinion, and, as Socrates said, "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things." Your statement in regards to why didnt God give everyone an equal chance...if one were to read the Old Testament the question is answered. Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come. Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah. Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language. It would be similar to living in Eastern Europe where English is the buisness language. Because the language was so widespread it made it easy to understand and spread the Gospel. In other words there was no major language barrier. So the "idiot God" might not be so stupid after all. Before anyone comes up with any more questions or asks me to prove anything else. This was simply for Tammy. I am not, nor have time, to prove Christianity is True or that God exists. Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is.

Anonymous said,
God did the things that he did because that is they way God did things.

Wow! I wonder why no one ever explained things so clearly to us before!
Dano

Anonymous wrote:
Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is.

You must be referring to the religious right with this statement and I agree wholeheartly.

Anonymous, Thank you so much for your apologetic attempt to discredit the obvious. What I said was that the American Indians knew not of the Middle Eastern Bible God, before 1492, but as I'm sure your opinion without your knowledge, is more palatable to your liking, and since you have worked all over the world with tribes in this last century, you have acquired all the vast knowledge there is to be known with Indians past and present, so
unless you have worked with the American Indians before 1492, you must bestow some knowledge of them not supplied in our present history books. I honestly doubt that there has ever been a Tribe or a civilization that did not have a god to imagine or one to believe in, if man has no god, he will create one. The American Indians had rain gods, corn gods, fish gods, bear gods, etc. But it is not my opinion that they worshipped or believed in an Arab Bible God, it is your opinion that they did.

Wholboy in disgust;

you wrote,
(God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come. Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah). Dear Anon, seriously have you read what you wrote?

(Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language. It would be similar to living in Eastern Europe where English is the business language. Because the language was so widespread it made it easy to understand and spread the Gospel.)

Again anon, such grandiose apologetic claim, what brand of christian apologetic spray are you using? I completely understand your need and desire for your religion to work it's way out of the bible, but you're way over the top, but we are used to it here.

The problem that you have, as well as all other christians is, that you are trying to equate the bible with your present day World View, the bible was not written with this present World View, 20-21st century in mind, so you all have to hunt and scratch and dig for apologetic answers to fill the void that the ancient bible writers never knew about and could only guess about what they were saying. The bible was never divinely inspired by a god, it was inspired by people with delusional emotional fear of dying.

As long as you christians can dig out an apologetic answer to your own satifaction, your belief will continue to strive, as of now, your apologetic answers carries no weight to us here, we've heard them all and have made a few of them up ourselves in the past.

Thats all I got to say about that.

Damn Bob, want to run away with me and start a revolution? Never mind, I don't think I could be somebody's bitch in prison, I'm not that young anymore. LOL

Loved all you had to say about christianity being the cause of all our woes, it was right on. Don't civilizations crumble when men are drunk with power?

I also agree that Alito was coached, and if his wife wasn't told to cry on cue, she probably caught holy hell that night for embarrassing Sam on national TV.

Now I am going back and reading your posts about change in the wind, and a secular society. I need some positive reinforcement right about now. LOL It will have to be "we the people" who put a stop to all of this, and that my friend will take a lot of time.

Take care,

Tammy, that was a great post! You go girl! That's all I can say, you covered it so well.

Anon: "...believe in a "great spirit" yet do not worship Him because their spirits ... tell them that he is too hot, or eats the souls of children or what not."

(I know you don't want to answer questions, that's too scary, so just think of these as rhetorical...)
Are they to be blamed for not worshipping a being they think eats babies souls, etc?
Why would they break their religion?
It's just a cultural thing.
You don't worship that 'other spirit' called Satan, because he likes to destroy souls too. It just depends on what culture you were brought up in.

"Your statement in regards to why didnt God give everyone an equal chance...if one were to read the Old Testament the question is answered. Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come...."

You've missed the point.
There was (supposedly) four thousand years of tribes people all around the world living and dying for generation after generation before Jesus supposedly came. Their souls defaulting to hell because they didn't even know about Jesus to make him their Lord and Saviour, or they weren't born into god's Chosen people for their sacrifices to be acceptable...

"Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language..."

You've missed the point, again.
The 'known' world? What bullshit. What about All the tribes, around the Actual world, where humans Actually were in those days...
Yes, just because they hadn't been discovered yet doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Also, does them knowing about some other 'great spirit' who they are afraid of, tell them that he is destined to send his son to earth to die for the sins of Adam and Eve and that he'll rise again after three days and ascend into heaven and that he's going to come again, etc?
These 'essential elements for salvation' are just too much story for them to be able to infer from a knowledge of 'some other spirit who's 'too hot' for them'...

Anonymous 1/13/2006 7:46 AM: "This post is specifically for Tammy. I would like to address some of the concerns you brought up. Your analogy of the indians may be a bit off. I have worked with tribes around the world, and every one of them...with and without missionary involvement do believe in a "great spirit" yet do not worship Him because their spirits (yes, the do talk to spirits: for instance the Yanamamoo indians in Venezuela have Jaguar Spirit, Anaconda Spirit, and the like) tell them that he is too hot, or eats the souls of children or what not. So to make a statement that the Indians of this culture did not know of said God is simply an opinion, and, as Socrates said, "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things."

Uh, point was, the Indians chose their gods, not vice versa. If a god wanted to be known as supreme across the entire globe, then that god failed by the sheer number of gods being worshipped from the beginning of Indian settlement, until today. The fact that the sun gods were given different personalities, names, etc., makes it obvious that a god didn't make a visit in everyone's mind. Mankind has had to make god(s), using naturally observable objects, such as jaguar's, bears, eagles, buffalo, etc.

Anonymous: "Your statement in regards to why didnt God give everyone an equal chance...if one were to read the Old Testament the question is answered."

If you are suggesting that the Jews were the chosen ones in the Old Testament because it was gods' plan. Then might I suggest, continuing to read, into the gospels where in theory god took the chosen status away and stated that all people could receive salvation if they abided by the word. In short, god changed his mind, in the bible, talking about having "misguided" opinions, it appears the god of the bible had the wrong opinion when he declared the Jews were the chosen. Again, even when god changed his mind, he didn't go to every Indian tribe, race, etc., and spread his gospel, hence the over 4,900 gods listed on today's records from cultures around the world.

Anonymous: "Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come."

However, when Jesus arrived the Jews denied him as he never became the Moshiach. Neither did he fill the Old Testament prophesies, or fit the bill for being The Messiah to bring them into their promised New Kingdom. Hence, why so many Jews were willing to fight during the crusades.

Anonymous: "Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah."

Well, he'd better hurry up, its been over two thousand years, the god has changed from El in the northern kingdom of Judah, to YHWH, in the souther kingdom of Judah, and again as Allah to the Muslims. Those who worshipped El, went back to Zeus in many places, and YHWH and Allah have followers who think their "name" for their god is better than the other persons'. Also, unless a god shows up, to prove his/her/its point, then all gods are equal. If gods' intent to get the message out, was to use a demi-god Jesus, he sucked at getting the point accross, as the people of that era weren't convinced. Seems a god could have done a little more to convince the chosen people, unless the god didn't exist.

Anonymous: "Also at the time of Christ the known world was united, I use that term losely, under the Roman Empire and Koine Greek was the common language."

By the time a Jesus showed up on the scene in the CE, much of the world according to archeological evidence was inhabited by some culture, and speaking different languages. There are bible stories used to illustrate why people spoke different languages, like the tower of babel for instance. The world didn't spin around Rome, there were already cultures worshipping creator gods, sun gods, and in different languages.

Anonymous: "It would be similar to living in Eastern Europe where English is the buisness language."

You must be joking, there was one language for the entire globe huh. Well, that straightens out everything.

Anonymous: "Because the language was so widespread it made it easy to understand and spread the Gospel."

The original bible was transcribed into Aramaic, Latin, etc., etc. Imagine that, I suppose not everyone spoke Hebrew in Rome.

Anonymous: "In other words there was no major language barrier. So the "idiot God" might not be so stupid after all."

No, god was an idiot if god was supposed to be a universal god who was coming to pass a message. If god were truly universal, then the language would have also been written in a universal tone, which it was not, nor did every culture aruond the populated world know of this god.

Anonymous: "Before anyone comes up with any more questions or asks me to prove anything else. This was simply for Tammy. I am not, nor have time, to prove Christianity is True or that God exists. Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is."

Well, thanks for your opinion. The historians, anthropologists, psychologists, geologists, of the world tend to "disagree" in just about everything you said.

If you actually want to see how your bible was translated over and over, here is something for you to read; I find it more helpful, to learn some knowledge, before just muttering opinion, on common languages, etc., as if time stood still and so did the words of the bible in their meaning.

"This writer does not presume to be an expert on all facets of textual criticism, or possess an exhaustive understanding of all three declensions of the Greek language and the nuances of verb tense, although he has read and translated from several Greek texts for more than twenty-five years and scrupulously compared most currently available translations with those texts - verse by verse and word by word. His desire is to return the grace of his personal education for the benefit of the aspiring student who loves the Bible and needs an accurate, balanced, yet unsophisticated lift to their own literary advancement."

"It is entirely presumptuous for the informed to misdirect the uninformed by suggesting: “Let's check the original Greek” when there exists no such opportunity. Conversely in the interest of balance, there are passages which read exactly the same in almost all known manuscripts (John 1:1). Is it then permissible to conclude that these instancies are faithful reproductions of the original composition? The point attempted herein to be made is simply that unless one actually possesses the Original of any copied work (legal, diplomatic, or biblical), one should refrain from enouncing with ontological certitude the exact nature of the unseen progenitor. Words have clear definable meanings and original does not mean similar -- it means original."
http://www.cob-net.org/compare.htm

NO Thanks Pastor!!!! Been there done that and at the end of my "christian walk" I was left empty, discouraged,depressed, and pesimistic about people and life in general. And yes I gave my heart and soul to the Lord. Get real. Most of us in here were at one point in time sincere and dedicated christians and we are just now starting to get our thoughts and lives put back together. So please go to another website and preach your nonsense somewhere else. Just like Bob most of us in here can say Been there done that and YES we all got the shirt. AMEN!!!!

Madbuni said...
"Damn Bob, want to run away with me and start a revolution? Never mind, I don't think I could be somebody's bitch in prison, I'm not that young anymore. LOL"

Scary, isn't it? Everyone should read 1984 by Orwell again. The History channel ran a great thing on the FBI surveillance of John Lennon last night (http://www.historychannel.com/global/listings/series_showcase.jsp?EGrpType=Series&Id=16513135&NetwCode=THC) that runs again on Monday. How about a commune instead of a revolution, Madbuni?

Spacemonk,

Thanks for your great replies. Anonymous seems to have that christian knack of marginalizing cultures that aren't sacred to the christian faith - Jews and Roman Empire Gentiles. What about the rest of the world?

His work with South American Indians seems a little marginalizing in itself. Why do the indigenous people of South America (and various tribes around the world, whatever that means) need someone from another culture telling them what to do? Smells like Manifest Destiny to me...

Anonymous: "Just remember "Opinions without knowledge are ugly things" and sometimes we scream our opinions so much that there is no longer any need for knowledge and they simply become descriptive assumptions or how we want our world to be and have no bearing on how our world really is."

So, you were just saving the Indians from their assumptions or a belief in how they wanted their world to be? Just spreading a little "knowledge"? Get over yourself. You don't have all the answers. Your "knowledge" is no better than anyone elses, even if YOU think that it is God inspired.

Thank you Dave8 very much for the back-up on the history of white superiority over blacks - Great stuff.

WWJD - Who Would Jesus Do?

"...keep on keepin' on-raise up in the name of the lard."

What a cool and hip pastor! Bet he recites prayer to hip-hop music during services. No matter how he tries to serve it up, though, it is all still BS and fraud.

By the way, WTF does "raise up" mean? Raise what? How high? Hmmm...xians are soooo weird.

Hi,Madbuni. We will be screwed with Alito. No matter what he says about following the law, his stickin' religious beliefs will trump everything else. Yes, wifey is a piece or work, if she wasn't acting she has serious mental problems.

Regards, carol

"Clearly, whether you believe in it or not, God is seen as making Israel the people by which the Messiah would come. Therefore, there was not Messiah in Native American culture because that was not the means by which God had choosen to send the Messiah."

I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn. I know it exists because I can't see it.

Hi Pastor. There is no God and their never was a New Testament Jesus born of a virgin. End of story.Peddle your crap elsewhere

ANY INSTITUTION OR GROUP THAT BELIEVES IN THE DIVINE OR THE SUPERNATURAL IS A RELIGION. END OF STORY

I don't know why a group of people , tribe or race would want to bow down to a system that has enslaved and killed their people.

It seems their minds are still in shackles.

Bob (Been There, Got the T-Shirt): "Thank you Dave8 very much for the back-up on the history of white superiority over blacks - Great stuff."

Hey Bob, yeah, its great to sit back and see how people define truth. Many people of today attempt to create "truth", by ignoring historical records, etc. Its like they go back in time, and start painting over little pieces of the historical picture, in order to create a "better" picture. Much to their chagrin, many people still have the historical records and the original picture intact, and can spot a "fraud" picture, with its gleaming wet pain. Perhaps, the religious will attempt another mass book burning, in an effort to erase the historical timelines, so we can relive the dark ages ;-) Take care...

"...keep on keepin' on-raise up in the name of the lard."

What a cool and hip pastor! Bet he recites prayer to hip-hop music during services.

Carol,

Actually, that's christian rap. Ya need to get hippy wid it yo!

How did America become a nation of religious Zealots?

How did Jesus and religion get started in America? Was it the native Americans speaking about the great white Buffalo?

Answer: Religion and Jesus made it's way to America by sailing vessel. It was carried ashore in 1492 and much credit was given to the god of the bible for letting the pilgrims arrive here safely.

Now the only way to infect another person is by hearing or volunteering to read by one's own accord, this is the only way a religion and fables can be passed on to another person.

The American Indian could not read the English language, this already made whiteman think that he was superior. Now the same peoples whom come over here and their descendants that invaded this land are still repeating the same useless scriptures, by repetition and the infection lives on, there is no cure for the disease except to suddenly realize that you've been duped into your belief by minipulation, mostly by the same people that you've allowed yourself to trust, the same people that you thought had already weighed the evidence with thoughtful consternation.

Religion is an addictive disease of the mind, a mind virus infected by the word to the ears or through the eyes to the brain, to the main CPU, garbage in, but not easily removed.

Now after realizing you've been snookered, you realize that it is you yourself, that must carefully weigh the evidence for what it is, and a feeling overwhelming stupidy dwells within, and then an overwheming gladness comes over you, to think that all along it was all just a fraud, an act being portrayed by false actors, with self-claimed titles. In a way I blame the Indians for not burning every ship and bible that arrived on American shores, but they had no idea such an infectious disease would eventually be the end of their almost total demise.

You guys are being kinda mean to pastor danny, don't you think. What makes your way better than his? How do you think you know there is no God. People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers. The pressure is always on the Christians to provide some proof. I think if we're all honest we will admit that we don't know everyting. In fact, if we possessed a measely 1% of all the knowledge in the universe, we would be absolutely and unmatchably wise. But don't you think that even if you knew 1% of everthing there is to know in the universe, there would be some chance in all that 99% of knowledge that there is a God. If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance. And I think if you'll look around you, you'll see evidence that there is a God. You don't look at your watch and suppose all those pieces pulled together by chance do you? No, you know your watch had a designer. You know your car in all it's complexities had to have a designer and maker. Our brains are more complex than any computer in the world. They must have had a designer. The vast universe that scientists probably haven't even scratched the surface of understanding, surely had an intelligent designer. I personally believe this God loved us even in our failure to love him, and he came and suffered his own wrath in our place to make a way for us to see him for who he is and to be saved forever. Don't blame God for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name. Look at Jesus for the model of perfection rather than people, many of whom never even knew him.
--mm

Mark,
"If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance."

I will never say that their is no chance of a CREATOR/FORCE/BIGBANG.
However, I will say that the christian god is a fraud and jesus never walked this earth. Both are make-believe and the bible is fiction with some historical references!

So, if we are considered innocent if we never hear the words of god, then why do we need to hear them at all? Hearing the word doesn’t open the gate to heaven any wider. It only unlocks the gate to hell. That’s crappy exchange for innocence.

Oh, us bad ole non-xians, being mean to another poor xian. Putting pressure on them to prove their nonsense. Egads, we are monsters!

Hello, Marky, are you there? None of us here claims to know everything, but instead of saying some invisible sky fairy did it, we hope science will continue to learn the answers. However, if xians want us to buy into the wholley babble and the lard, yes-they must prove it to us as most here know what a crock it is and it is easily debunked.

By the way, in the paper the other day there was an article about the rising problem of theft from book stores. I bet all of you can guess what the most stolen book it? The wholey babble! LMAO!

Regards, carol

Hey Mark, it sure would be a lot easier to not blame god for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name if he were to smite them once in awhile while they were running amok with him name.

Ben wrote: "There is a cave site in southern Spain, dated at 5500 B.C., in which intact capsules of opium poppy were found in a religious artifact. "

Finally, an explanation of the book of Revelations that I can understand.

But seriously Denny, there are a few believers who post here and try to minister to us. I have great respect for them, as they are clearly living their faith and courageously exposing themselves to ridicule because they believe they can help us. It is harder to respect someone like you who just blows in and tries to sell his own religion in one easy post. If you want to be taken seriously, stick around and get to know us as individuals. That's what Jesus would have done, right?

Mark,
I agree with you 100%. I think God does love us even though we don't love him. I think the part about burning in hell forever is just a joke. No loving God would make us suffer for eternity just because our logical brains can't make any sense of the bible, and the Jesus story. God has a sense of humor. He is a funny guy.

Just because we doubt that he is answering our prayers, and say things like "There is not one shred of evidence that a loving God does exist," I am sure he understands that we are just using our powers of observation, and reason, and don't mean any thing bad by it.

There has to be a perfectly obvious reason, that when he created us he also created evil, disease, suffering, sin, and the devil. (He did create everything, right?)

You don't demand that your kids love you do you? You don't beat the crap out of them just because they say they hate you. You don't require that they worship you either. Of course not. That would be egomaniacal, wouldn't it? I am sure God doesn't either.

I don't think God is going to punish me for being a rationalist and believing only what is logical and makes sense to me.
Dano

“You guys are being kinda mean to pastor danny, don't you think.”

Nope

“What makes your way better than his?”

If that was an attempt to make us feel as if we should have not expressed our views, it didn’t work. OK

“How do you think you know there is no God”

And what proof do you have a god or of any gods? Wait; don’t tell me – the universe

“People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers.”

Tag you’re it! Ok, we think and know Muslims are intolerant jackasses also. Now, does that make you feel better?

“The pressure is always on the Christians to provide some proof. “

Nope, the pressure is on all religions to provide proof of their deity. You all make these credible claims and no way of backing them up. But being that the topic is the Christian god, where is it/he/she/ and they?

“I think if we're all honest we will admit that we don't know everyting.”

We are honest and we have said over and over “I don’t know.” So far we have not seen the evidence of a god. So do you care to start us off with some of your evidence? I bet we’ve heard it before?

In fact, if we possessed a measely 1% of all the knowledge in the universe, we would be absolutely and unmatchably wise.

Is that a fact Mark? Wow. Did you find the cure for small pox, chicken pox, Gonorrhea, and syphilis. All you have is book written by overdose sheep herders that says pigeon blood cure boils.

But don't you think that even if you knew 1% of everthing there is to know in the universe, there would be some chance in all that 99% of knowledge that there is a God.

How about the opposite in % - 99% of the universe and 1% of this deity? Can you please put your god in a test tube so we can study it? Thanks

If you're honest, you'd have to say there's a chance.

A chance of what? Do you expect us to waste our life time on wishfully thinking? Pascal wager this buddy - Make sure you are worshiping Allah. His hell is hotter.

And I think if you'll look around you, you'll see evidence that there is a God.

Where? Your god is not under my bed is it? Oh forgot – the universe thing

The rest of you post is cut and paste and is nothing but crap…get a mind of your own Polly.

Hey Mark,

"People tag Christians as being intolerant because they think they know some answers." Read through this website. Carefully examine what you read. I think you will find that most ex-christians (you know, the people you might expect to meet at a website called exchristians)tag christians simply for being intolerant.

We point to its intolerant past. We point to the intolerance we see in everyday lives, such as the running of this country. Tell me the response poor, African Americans in New Orleans got after Katrina was very tolerant, or christian. I've seen Wal-Mart do more for the victims of Katrina. On a personal note, I have family members who lost everything in Katrina.

One part of the family went to Houston. They went to a church for some assistance during their time of need. As the church member was collecting some items to give them, she had the need to put her two cents in. She said that the reason Katrina hit New Orleans was because of the wickedness of the gays in that city. My brother-in-law asked, "please explain to me why the French Quarter (site of the gay district) was one of the least damaged parts of the city, then" They walked out without their aid.

Pat Robertson tried to make some coin off of Katrina. He even got the US government to list "Operation Blessing" as an officially sanctioned relief organization. All I can say, is: "No Soup for Prayer"

"Don't blame God for the failures and stupidity of people who have done evil things in his name."

Gah! Don't assume things about us! How can we blame anything on a god we don' even believe in?

Ok, Bob, commune it is!

I am going to try to watch the show you mentioned on History Channel.

So John was a threat to our national security! We're all probably on the famous snoop list for being on this website! LOL

Hi Carol, it makes me sick about Alito. I knew GW would have at least one nominee for the court, because Rhenquist was so sick, but I felt like I had been bitch slapped when Oconner resigned. It isn't fair I tell you, for that jackass to stack the court.

Did you see Alito get up at the end of the hearings and ignore his wife and walk out of the court room as if she weren't there? That's why I think she caught hell for her little breakdown the day before.

Take it easy,

An email that I just got. Touching, isn't it?

Text of email message:

DO YOU SMELL THAT?

At the end of this story, it gives you two options.
I think you will figure out what option I chose.

A cold March wind danced around the dead of night in Dallas
as the doctor walked into the small hospital room of
Diana Blessing. She was