Don't worry bro, we were not turned off by "man-made tradition or hypocracy".

Most of us have read the Bible itself (including the Gospels) and see it for what it is: fairy tales, rediculous guidelines to live by (women should cover their hair - although strangely enough most Christians don't uphold this rule), and disturbing stories of a vengful hatefull god.

You are not the first person, and most certainly, will not be the last person to tell us that we obviously didn't hear the "true good news" or "we were never saved in the first place".

Note the name of the website "EXchristians". We have all been there, heard that.
But, unlike the vast majority of Christians, we do not feel threatened by people with opposing views. We are quite open to other lines of thought. But please, when coming to us with a "new idea", please, be sure it's a new idea.

Please excuse my misspellings on the previous post. That was my first post and I forgot to do a spell check.

That post was, to me, the pinnacle of fundy condescension.

"You didn't hear the © 2005, 100% Real Gospel, that's why you turned away from God."

In other words, I wasn't a member of your church or your little subsect of Christianity and that's why I chose non-belief. I'm surprised that jrprentice didn't pull the old, "You never believed in the first place" bullshit too since the arguments seem to go hand in hand.

I'm not sure why it's so unfathomable to some Christians that a small number of people are capable of thinking for themselves and don't need to be led around by the shorthairs by their religion.

To you, and all the Christians like you, FOAD.

The real gospel is finally here!! Oh thank goodness, we no longer have to accept all the garbage that has come out of the mouths of thousands of preachers and theologians since the year 100! Praise be to the Highest, Joe Christian has come with the right gospel!!

Praise Batman!

Any one who ever really read the "good book" - and I mean gave it the attention that they pay the comic section of the daily newspaper - would never try to rub that "You just weren't exposed to the real deal" BS in our faces.

jose said it best. FOAD

Hello,

just typing in to say that I may have stumbled into a hornets nest.

I think it is very sad, many of the bad educational experiences people have had. Yet, after reading many a fundi’s blather, I wonder if many got the real science...the real good news...that we are the pinnacle of a process called natural selection, or just got a bunch of angry-man “I’m angry with god!” nonsense, which is quite easy to reject. And for which, I cannot blame them for rejecting reality.

Email:anti-jrprentice11@yahoo.com

" I wonder if many got the real gospel...the real good news...or just got a bunch of man-made tradition and hypocrisy, which is quite easy to "

Isn't your biblical canon a church tradition?

How do you know that protestant canon is correct one?

Read the history of the biblical canon and you will see the words "man-made tradition" written all over it

I am so tired of the "you didn't go to a Real True Christian Church (TM) excuse. Most of us have tried many different flavors of religion. We did not simply "give up" on it. We recognized the myth for what it was, a myth.

If you didn't like fruitcake and people kept shoving pieces of fruitcake down your throat, even though you told them that you didn't like fruitcake, wouldn't you be annoyed? This is how it is to us whenever people say "try my brand of Christianity, mine is better!" Yeah...right.

It's all just a cult of fruitcake with slightly different flavors to appeal to different people.

You're half right, JR. Most of us "just got a bunch of man-made tradition and hypocrisy." The problem is, we got it it straight from the Bible. That's all there is in it.

I think it is very sad, many of the experiences people have had. Yet, after reading testimonies, I wonder if many got the real gospel...the real good news...or just got a bunch of man-made tradition and hypocrisy, which is quite easy to reject. And which, I cannot blame them for rejecting.

You are kidding right? I would say most of the people here got 'the real gospel." I know I sure did. My dad was on the church board, and I heard all of the real dirt on the "real" christians.

BTW, when I was younger I read the bible through three times, cover to cover. Isn't the "real' gospel supposed to be in there somewhere?

The question to you is, have you actually LOOKED for truth? Have you been honest with yourself about those doubts you have. (and I know you do buddy)

You have taken a good first step. Your REAL self caused you to come visit. Your sub-conscious is telling you something. Listen to that still small voice that is called REASON. If you do, maybe soon you can find the freedom I have experienced.

Hey check out my new Blog:
http://onanite.blogspot.com/

OR

email me at onanite@gay.com.

Dear Oatpaste,
Yes, I'm afraid you do seem to have stumbled into a bit of a hornet's nest. I'm sorry to say that you are now about to be jumped on by a large number of people who will see your post as condescension.

As an atheist (who was lucky enough never to be a Christian) let me explain that the best thing you can do is retreat gracefully, unless you want to turn this into a full on debate, in which case your polite attitude will be of great use to you, provided you also have a strong, well-researched case to make.

Thanks for the interest!

It's funny to read all the above posts. Just don't get too mean. :)

I'd like to hear a well reasoned and researched case for a SuperNatural god... if that's possible in this Natural reality...

I hear ya. I would too.

jr. is just a little boy that replaced Santa with Jesus and has never grew up, even if he's 75 yrs. old, he still has to hold on to his childhood myth to get thim through the day, just another typical brainwashed fundy.

Interested Atheist

Either my level of sarcasm is too subtle for you, or yours for me.

You do realize oatpaste is an Anagram, no?

Amethyst,

I love the fruitcake analogy.

Pass the Kool-aid. I need a chaser!

Mary had a little Lamb..blah..blah..blah, jr. is still sucking on his toes.

oatpaste, please enlighten us on that brilliant anagram you've so cleverly devised...thanks

Joe,

Brilliant? No. I used an anagram generator to get it. (Wish I was clever enough to get this on my own) I wanted a screen name that was memorable and expressed something about myself.

Apostate <->OatPaste <-> ApeToast

P.S. Morons! I am NOT the original poster!

Open your f!*^&#@ eyes and read!
Honestly. We want to convince Jr. that we are at the minimum, intelligent people. Do you often find yourselves bewildered by the Simpsons? Do I have to spell things out for you, or are you capable of independent thought.

Here's the funniest part: most Christians don't have the FIRST CLUE what the REAL good news is. If you study the bible and its history, you'll know that the "good news" is that the Israelites are once more favored by God and have a patron saint in Jesus. Not that Jesus died for sins, all that crap that got made up along the way. Israel fell out of favor with God, which was why they were under Roman rule, and thought Jesus was the Messiah who was going to bestow God's good graces on them again and help them conquer the Romans and rule the world. Not that it happened.

So, jrprentice, have YOU heard the good news?

Mary had a little Lamb..blah..blah..blah, Joe is still sucking on his foot. (You see, he didn’t know what he was talking about. He opened his metaphorical mouth and . . . eh, I hope that’s enough explanation. I do however, seem to need supply an inordinate amount of that . . . I digress)

So Joe, didja git yerself ahold a one of them there dictionaries.
Seriously, I’m sure you know what an apostate is. - God I HOPE SO! ;-)

Oatpaste, Your writing style and word choices remind me of another pompous narcissist named Paul Manata. Maybe you are him! Whatever the case you are still a pompous ass.

What does it mean to you to "get" the "real gospel?" What exactly IS the "real gospel" to you? Are you saying that a christian may not "get" the real gospel? Does that mean a christian is not "saved," if they do not "get" the real gospel? If a person "gets" the gospel, then will they move mountains as Christ said a person should be able to do with enough faith? How come nobody has ever moved a mountain?

Do you "get" the "real gospel?" What does it mean to you that Christ said "Whosever keepeth my saying shall never see death," according to the gospel?

What is "the real good news," according to you? Is it "Jesus died for you. Accept him and you're 'saved?'" That is the same nonsense that I do NOT believe!

The doctrine of "salvation by grace" is absurd.

This guy/boy sounds like another hit and run fundy, he's probably at church praying for the Real Gospel to be revealed to him. Ironic when you get the BibleBug, you become the source that only receives the Real True Gospel, meaning that God's holy word was directed at only the only true christians which happens to enclude only the people stupid enough to believe that garbage in the first place.

Joe's responses smack of elemenary school toilet humor.

If you read through ALL of the posts, you'll note that I am defending myself against a someone who hasn't bothered to do just that.

Pompous? No. A bit bothered by the inability of some to understand subtle
sarcasm? Goading? Yes. Goading? Yes. Ass? Maybe.

Merry Christmas Everyone.

Friday, December 23, 2005
God is Real!

As a counter to this very damaging website.... I submit a challenge to all who would do harm to countless souls by slandering the name of The Lord God.

God in His Mercy has allowed us freewill....so we have His permission to deny Him.

But to actually [b]encourage others to do likewise? [/b] wow...that's going too far. I know the in's and out's of christianinty and churchianty...and I am aware that they are are many times one and the same.

But do not discount the True..just because the counterfiet exists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If anything, the mere existance of the counterfiet....indicates that there is a TRUE.

As a believer for 30 years ( and Pastor for 20) I have seen the ugly underbelly of virtually every possible contridiction and hypocrisy of church. I too have wanted to quit the battle and give up.

May God help us to remain faithjful to HIM....not a denomination. sect, or church doctrine.

The REAL DEAL

THE REAL DEAL ,
If there hadn't been those super heroes who stood up to the popes and priests of the dark ages, they would still be burning people at the stake.

As a matter of fact, the ragheads who call God "Allah," and their prophet Mohammed, are still committing unspeakable crimes against humanity, against any one who questions their version of the Bible. (Quaran)

Thank the force that created us, that brave people come along who will stand up against rule by mysticism.

Damaging website, Real Deal? Slandering god? He must be a total pussy to let us get away with this!

Real Deal: not. As a pastor you whole life is based on lies and fraud. The website is about truth and reality, which is opposite everything you and your brainwashed kind are about.

Regards, carol

God is Real!

I disagree. God is a myth designed to repress the masses and give hope of "Pie in the Sky

As a counter to this very damaging website.... I submit a challenge to all who would do harm to countless souls by slandering the name of The Lord God.

The only thing this website does is tell true stories of release from the bondage of Christianity and give support to those who know deep down that God is a lie, and that religion is one of the most destructive of human constructs. This is a historical fact.

God in His Mercy has allowed us freewill....so we have His permission to deny Him.

From what I was taught in Christianity, your God will allow us freewill for about 80 years here on Earth. Then if we choose this so called freewill and ask simply "Is there a God," or choose to not believe, we are condemned to eternity in a place of horrible torture. Some freewill there.

Maybe you Christians could do that to one of your children, but my friend, I would not be able to inflict pain on my beloved child for a second. Well I guess I am just capable of greater love than you God

But to actually [b]encourage others to do likewise? [/b] wow...that's going too far. I know the in's and out's of christianinty and churchianty...and I am aware that they are are many times one and the same.

We encourage freedom and rational thought. We support each other by sharing our common experiences. I guess that is too much for you huh?

But do not discount the True..just because the counterfiet exists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If anything, the mere existance of the counterfiet....indicates that there is a TRUE.

The only thing that is counterfeit in this world is your hateful myth. The silly notion that there is some supreme being out there looking for billions of people to torture for all eternity. Shame on you.

As a believer for 30 years ( and Pastor for 20) I have seen the ugly underbelly of virtually every possible contridiction and hypocrisy of church. I too have wanted to quit the battle and give up.

Finally a bit of truth from the false prophet. You know how sick your religion is. You even admit to wanting to "give up." Why then, I must ask myself, don't you? Oh wait you have revealed yourself again. It is how you make your money. A career trying to trap otherwise happy people in your religion. Again I say shame on you.

May God help us to remain faithjful to HIM....not a denomination. sect, or church doctrine.

I am afraid that is all you have to prop up your deceptions. Your denomination and doctrines. How very sad for you.

Onanite

THE REAL DEAL
You said:
"As a counter to this very damaging website.... I submit a challenge to all who would do harm to countless souls by slandering the name of The Lord God"

If you have ever seen on TV the starving babies with the flies sitting on their lips and eyes waiting for them to die so they can lay their eggs in their dead flesh, you will see that God does a pretty good job of slandering himself, by being out to lunch for 4 billion years.

I would also suggest that you watch a few programs about people being born with 2 heads, or Progeria, or any of the myriad of horrible diseases that people are suffering with all over the world, especially in countries where no one has ever heard of Jesus, and never will.

Counterfeit UFO parts, pieces and pictures exist.

I guess that PROVES that UFOs are real!

The real deal
You are right on about how damaging this most excellent web site is.
Please explain how you have been damaged.
How damaging is Islam to your god book.How damaging is the roman catholic church to your foundation.

Do you think that we are stupid and that anyone would reply to this

As a counter to this very damaging website.... I submit a challenge to all who would do harm to countless souls by slandering the name of The Lord God.

How can we be slandering The lord God.As god doesn't exist.Other than man.What god are you refering to Mithra Serapis jesus Yahweh or the other Lord gods.

Now tell us we are going to hell and that we were not true christians in the first place.

Pastor your past it.The jigs up.
The truth is out. www.jesusneverexisted.com

You are a fool.You have been measured (see torment in revelations) and have fallen short.

Who would agree to eternal torment.
Who would be pleased to know that billions of people will suffer forever and ever.

Would love torment forever and ever.
Would Mercy and compassion agree with you.?

I know that you will not return to answer my questions because you leave damaged.Yet more enformed.

You are the enemy of progress.It is you who have slandered the name of love.Fool.

Love man with all your heart and all your mind.Give to man that which he should ask of you.then man will prosper.Then all things will be possible.God is man.For I know no other.

As a counter to this very damaging website.... I submit a challenge to all who would do harm to countless souls by slandering the name of The Lord God.

Maybe my brain is out to lunch here, but is anybody else wondering what the challenge is?

To "the Real Deal:"

Please explain to me how it is that this website is "damaging." It appears to me that these are people who meet and agree that christianity is not believable. The sign on the door makes that quite obvious, as it reads "Ex-christian.net." Anybody who reads that ought to know that this is a website for people who once believed in christianity and no longer do. A few here may never have been christians at all, but most of us once were and no longer believe in it, it seems. I left christianity because I could not believe in the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, which the christian church has taught for centuries. I have other reasons for leaving as well. We here are generally happy to discuss our reasons for leaving christianity.

I'm glad I found this website. It's nice to know that there are others out there who also see the nonsense of christianity. Before I found this site I was surrounded by christians every where I went and I felt alone in my disbelief.

There are countless christian websites on the internet, but very few for non-christians.

I have to go. I have more to say to you, and I'll be back shortly.

If you don't like this site, then you have the option of leaving.

Before I go, just out of curiosity, how do you explain Matt. 23:13? How do you correlate said passage with the doctrine of "salvation by grace?"

That's just for starters. When you're done with that one, I've got a long list of them for you to explain. If you can explain those passages and correlate them with said doctrine in a way that makes sense, then I might consider being a christian. If you cannot explain them, then I will go along my merry way as an ex-christian. Okay?

If I am to be an ex-christian, then I will happily enjoy meeting here with other ex-christians.

I'm glad I found this website, personally.

I'll be back.

As someone who (1) is a Christian, (2)was not raised a Christian, (3) did not have some down-in-the-gutter experience that forced me to turn to religion as a crutch, and 4) is not an idiot (I got a 1330 on my SAT, scored in the 99th percentile on my LSAT, and have achieved a measure of success in the legal profession), I have a question:

Can someone explain to me the objective measurable harm that has come from Christianity?

I see so many on this site that are just filled with anger and cynicism toward Christianity. I certainly understand that people have done bad things in the name of Christianity, but so have they for all kinds of other things. Neither Stalin, Mao, nor Hitler were Christians, nor even religious people (although one could argue that Hitler was into non-Christian mysticism), and they are responsible for some of the most horrific things in the last century. Christ was not a violent hateful person. And, much good has come from Christians who sacrifice for others (Mother Theresa, International Justice Mission, Compassion International).

So, whether you want to believe in God and Christianity, or not, that is certainly your choice. But, to argue that Christianity has harmed so many seems a bit lacking in historical perspective. Heck, even if you look at it from a materialistic perspective (which I am not advocating), it would appear that Christianity has served people well. In the light of history, our country has as much of a Christian underpinning as virtually any in history and we have an incredibly high standard of living and do a pretty good job of ensuring that people do not have to go without food, clothing, or shelter in our country.

What parts of the Bible do you think are so harmful? Is it the command to love our neighbor as ourself? Or is it the command to forgive others over and over? Or maybe it is the part about helping the poor, the widows, and orphans? Is it the part about turning the other cheek?

I mean, even if you think most Christians have done a terrible job of living a model life (but are instead hypocrites), it would seem to me that one would do well from a moral perspective to follow Christ's teachings even if you do not believe in God. I certainly do not see how you can say that Christ is the source of a destructive, harmful system of beliefs. So, please do explain it to me.

Oh, and please do it without the namecalling if you want it to be considered an "intelligent response."

nonexchristian
Lets start with the name calling.

The Bible
Only a fool would believe that there is no god.
1 please explain

2 Do you agree that infinite punishment for finite sin is a just reward.?

Forever:

I do not understand what you mean by the first question, i.e., what it is you want me to explain.

As for the second question, I believe that those who are not born again ultimately die a second death (as it is called in revelation) whereby they cease to exist. Those who are born again and have been clothed with immortality (1 Corinthians 15) will not face a second (spiritual) death. That is what Jesus meant when He said His followers would not die. They have been given eternal life and the second death has no power over them (again, straight from the book of revelation). So, in answer to your question, I do not see the bible teaching some eternal conscious punishment for unbelievers.

Now, I still would like someone to answer my question. :-)

nonexchristian,
You said you are not an idiot. Please explain how you, as an intelligent person and a Christian, believe that animals can talk and a bush spoke human language? Do you believe a person lived in a whale for 3 days? Do you believe a ghost inserted his magic wand up a girl's dress and then unloaded his holy load to produce a man-god? I'll refrain, for now, regarding all the other ridiculous Christian beliefs. This is not namecalling and they are serious questions.

How can you, as a very intelligent person, believe in all these crazy fables? Have you ever thought about why *you* happen to believe in this particular fairy tale? The religion you believe in almost exclusively determined by space and time.


Have you read about world religions and how Christianity is just another religion that evolved from primeval religious beliefs? Did your know your jesus character is not even original?


And to answer your question about is Christian harmful. Yes, it is. It says you are sinful, thus the negative connotation associated with it and the loss of self respect. The bible says to fear your "all-loving" god. How can you honor such a belief system? It's a belief system that creates bigots, as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson come to mind. It makes people naive and thus easily fleeced---just read the multitude of articles on this web site for examples.


Your god is homophobic. In fact, your god would rather have girls raped than allow homosexual activity. Here's some of the fruits of Christianity:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Never once did Jesus, nor God, I mean himself, denounce the institution of slavery even though slavery was mentioned in many biblical verses.


And speaking of lack or originality. The Christmas tree, wreath, mistletoe are all stolen religious symbols. I have a task for you. How many other religious symbols did Christianity steal and make their own?


Cheers

Nonexchristian asks, "Can someone explain to me the objective measurable harm that has come from Christianity?"

Comes now the deluge. It starts with a trickle: Believing in falsehoods is inherently harmful. Expending energy through faith in that for which you have insufficient evidence is objective waste.

Harm? You say that, "whether you want to believe in God and Christianity, or not, that is certainly your choice." Yet the truth of your belief is that, if I make the wrong choice, I suffer unspeakable torment forever? No harm in laying that burden on me? My "choice," you say?

Oh, how I pray that this little answer may find grace in your sight, thou most exalted Nonexchristian, and that I might be counted among the dear ones giving an "intelligent response"!

nonexchristian
Since you do not understand the first 1 I'll leave it.

Your second response too 2 Remains a puzzle.
As how many other Christians would disagree with you.Why do the many Christians disagree.Even on simple things like baptism.

So is what you are saying.The buddist deserves to not exist because he is an unbeliever in your god.?
So do you believe that a finite sin deserves destruction.?

Why does your heart agree with your answer.Because a book told you so.

All you have is a book and a relationship with words.Just as the muslem and the Mormon do.

Professing to be wise they become fools. more name calling

To quote the brilliant lawyer/Historian nonexchristian:

So, whether you want to believe in God and Christianity, or not, that is certainly your choice. But, to argue that Christianity has harmed so many seems a bit lacking in historical perspective.

Let’s see, here are a couple of things you might want to look up:

Emperor Constantine:
In the fourth century, Emperor Constantine, the first Roman Emperor to become a Christian, had over 3000 Christians executed because their interpretation of the Bible did not agree with his. That is more than the number of Christians who died at the hands of the Romans during the well known 1st century "Christians to the lions" persecutions. (1)

He did this to the good Christians. Do a little research on what he did to the non Christians.

The Inquisition:
You know about the Spanish Inquisition right? I mean with such a high SAT score and all. If not, do a little google search. My guess is you will find a couple of pages out there on it.

The burning times :
English Catholics suffered horribly under Protestant regimes. American historian William T. Walsh writes: "In Britain, 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany, the figure was 100,000." In Scotland, too, (alleged) witches were cruelly put to death.

Charlemagne :
In 777, Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning. (1)

The Crusades (1095-1291) :
1098 - Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. (2)

6/28/1098 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed. (2)
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. (5)

In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, 'until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy.' (1)

The 30 Years’ War:
17th century (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. (5)

Twentieth Century :
**Catholic extermination camps
Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. (6)

Well took me about 5 minutes online and 10 here posting, to blow your little "Christianity never does anything wrong BS to high .. [snicker] heaven. Before you make more of an ass of yourself, you may want to read a little of history. What do you think?

Onanite

Sources:

(1)William Manchester's "A World Lit Only by Fire- The Medieval Mind and The Renaissance"..Little, Brown & Company, 1992
(2)H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973.
(3)H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973.
(4)J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
(5)K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
(6)A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.

It's not Christ who is harmful, it's the Pharisees who claim to follow him (a.k.a. people who insist others have to follow him too, in the "correct" way). Current example: Christians want to ban abortion because the Bible is supposedly against it. The result of that would be any woman with an ectopic pregnancy would have to wait in physical agony until her fallopian tube burst and the baby naturally died before she could have surgery, hoping against hope she doesn't die herself. Harmful? You bet.

Another example: believing that the Bible says white males are superior, the KKK was formed and women are encouraged by their own priests to stay in abusive marriages. Harmful? Yup.

Last one I'm going to bring up: gays and non-Christian children are told to their faces they are going to hell because Jesus doesn't like either one. Read: you are not good enough for God, so just die. Don't think that's harmful? I think they'd beg to differ.

Religion in general is supposed to be an uplifting, positive thing, and if that's what it is for you then more power to ya. But it's not that way for all of us. For me personally, it's restrictive and teaches separation. I believe in unconditional love and forgiveness, and your God doesn't. By my standards, he's way too human and primitive. Christ is better, but whole blood sacrifice things smacks of tribal superstition. Sorry, but when Christianity grows up, then I'll consider it.

The problem with most of the examples of the "harm" from Christianity is that they are simply examples of people who want to do bad in the name of Christianity (I acknowledged in my post that many people have done bad things in the "name" of Christianity). With most of those examples it is quite easy to show how the actions of those involved were entirely inconsistent with Christ's teaching, thus negating that the harm came from Christianity itself.

Using the examples given, and drawing an analogy to current times, I could just as easily say that democracy is a terrible thing because look at how Americans have gone off and started a war in Iraq, resulting in the death of thousands of people. Or I could say that democracy is a terrible thing because look at the torture committed at Abu Ghraib or elsewhere on terrorist prisoners by Americans (who profess democracy and are supposedly taking on this mission in Iraq on the basis of bringing democracy). The problem with that is that I am not realy looking at the root causes and drawing a reasonable connection. Many, many Americans would say "hey, don't associate us with that conduct, even though we also love the ideals of democracy -- it is not the love of democracy that drives that behavior"). Just because in 2000 years some people have chosen to use Christianity as a banner to do bad things (when those things were clearly condemned by Jesus) does not mean that Christianity caused the harm. I would propose that those same evils would have been committed under the guise of some other banner if Christianity didn't exist.


As for the question by Forever, yes I do believe that spiritual destruction is an appropriate result from finite sin. Hey, a person still had the opportunity to live this life, so what claim can that person make against God that he deserved more. If someone consciously chooses to reject eternal life through Christ, that person can hardly say to God "You are unfair. Yes, I rejected your offer, but how did I know it was really true?"

As for how an intelligent person can believe in Christianity, there are some great books on the subject - "Finding Faith" by Brian Mclaren, "Reason to Believe" by R.C. Sproul are just a couple.

Well, gotta run. May the eyes of your heart be enlightened today!

Here ya go na-na-na-non:

Those Caring Christians

Victims of the Christian Faith

Early Christians

An Examination of the Early Martyrs

Quotes from Saint Augustine

The Crusaders

Letters from the Crusades of 11th Century

Letter from the East to Master of Hospitalers 1187

Gerold, Patriarch of Jerusalem Letter to all the Faithfull in 1229

The Catholics
>
The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day

The Destruction of Magdeburg

Quotes from Galileo

Galileo's Letter to the Church 1632

The Church sentences Galileo 1633

The Reformers

Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor

Luther the Deranged THEOLOGIAN
Quotes from Martin Luther

Ordinances For The Regulation of the Churches
Dependent Upon the Seigniory of Geneva 1547

Calvin Quotes

John Calvin - a Nazi

The Complaint of Nicholas de la Fontaine
Against Servetus, 14 August, 1553

Reformation Persectution

Witch Trials


Torture of the Pappenheimers from Bamberger Halsgerichtordnung 1508

THE JOHANNES JUNIUS LETTER between 1618 & 1648

Slavery

Mutual Relation of Masters and Slaves
as Taught in the Bible.
A Discourse Preached in the First Presbyterian Church,
Augusta, Georgia, on Sabbath Morning, Jan. 6, 1861

Today's Christians

Christian Faith and Urban Legends

Letters that have been sent to the webmaster

HELL HELL HELL

Dan Gentry

Gary North

R. J. Rushdooney
Randall Terry

Cliche' Answers Some Christians use

Basic Apologetic Rationalizations

Everybody Hates Us - A Christian Perspective

What would Jesus Do?

On Coping with Christians

God on the Brain

Um, Mr. Intelligence, did you even read where I said it's not Christianity but the Pharisees that are harmful?

Did you also read the part about unconditional love and forgiveness that your God lacks? I'll say it again: I like your Christ, for the most part, but Christianity has little to do with Christ. The religion emphasizes pagan blood sacrifices and "believe in me and accept my bloody gift" rather than "Christ wants you to love your fellow human being rather than worship him." See the difference here?

I follow Christ's ideals but I don't believe he was the only Son of God, I think "sin" is a bunch of crap designed to keep people in line, and any God who punishes someone eternally for not claiming to believe the right thing is a monster and not worthy of spitting on, let alone worshipping. In short, your God is juvenile and has a temper tantrum when people don't tell him how great he is. I don't accept that kind of behavior in my 6 year old but I'm expected to revere a God who does it? Please.

Wow.

I have never came across a site of such bitter, hurting people.

A few responses.....Number 1, I do not get paid a salary for Following my calling...not that I think it so objectional that many pastors are paid ( much less than they are worth by the way)

Number 2...there is no "jig" that is up. I am not weird. I do not USE christianity as a crutch.

I am not brainwashed...

I do not believe in the authority of the Roman Catholic Church and its false man-made doctrines.

And I realize alot( not all) of Historical mis-deeds and atrocities have been done in the name of christianity, God, Jesus and religion.

I also do not default to christianity...simply because I have been born and raised in America. I have traveled to other continents and seen the horrific suffering some here have spoken about.

You folks are entitled to your obviously hate-filled, and hostile opinions of the faith(that's putting it mildly!~)

My challenge is to those who have stumbled across this site and are taken in by the venomous comments, put-downs and lies attributed to TRUE BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY.

It is not true.

There is a Real God who really does love you. You didnt create yourself...we didnt create this Planet and have it just the right distance form our Sun so to sustain our life.

If you are a seeker...seek on!
God knows you personally....he hears your prayers...and He will respond~

Real Deal

Here we go again, with Anonymous (12/24/2005 1:09 PM EST), who said...

"Wow. I have never came across a site of such bitter, hurting people...."

Numerous Christian visitors here open with similar allegations, about the people here being "bitter" or "angry" etc., but I've yet to see one demonstrate that they have taken the time to read much of anything here. You are in that category too, Anonymous. You are quick to paint with a broad brush, apparently unconcerned with who you color. If you take the time to read some of the many MANY things that are written here, you will find a great many people who are thoughtful, educated, and responsible. Yes, occasionally apostates will also vent some anger; but so what? In many cases they have every right to be angry. But I, for one, am not angry, or bitter, or hurting.

"A few responses....."

I won't quarrel with your responses. You are entitled to follow whatever path you wish, and embrace whatever philosophy you see fit. (Of course, we needn't agree with you.)

"You folks are entitled to your obviously hate-filled, and hostile opinions of the faith(that's putting it mildly!~)"

Again, the broad brush. Does it concern you at all that your assertions concerning "hate" and "hostility" may not be accurate? Do you feel any responsibility for the things that you say? Would you deem it appropriate to learn something about the people whom you denigrate so?

"My challenge is to those who have stumbled across this site and are taken in by the venomous comments, put-downs and lies attributed to TRUE BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY."

Venomous comments? Are you able to distinguish between venom, and legitimate differences of opinion? Maybe you are; I just cannot tell from what you've written. Do you think there is even a trace of venom in your own comments?

"It is not true. There is a Real God who really does love you."

That's the entire crux of the issue, is it not? Do you see why simply pronouncing your belief is not the least bit useful here? If you have some credible evidence, or some cogent argument to back up what you say, I'd be curious to hear it. But I must warn you, most of us here are well-versed in Christian apologetics, and it's EXTREMELY likely that we've heard and analyzed all the arguments you will come up with (and then some). To those of us who have studied your religious text and dogma extensively, it simply does not stand up as a credible belief system. We can get into that if you like. Are you curious?

"You didnt create yourself...we didnt create this Planet and have it just the right distance form our Sun so to sustain our life."

No, of course we did not create ourselves. My toaster oven did not create us either. What do you conclude from that? As for being the "right" distance from the sun, that argument falls into the category of "design", or the "teleological argument". One of the many fallacies that undermine such arguments is the confusion between cause and effect. Again, we can discuss that further if you are interested in a civil dialog.

"If you are a seeker...seek on!

I've never stopped "seeking". I feel it is a life-long duty to critically examine my own beliefs and assumptions continuously. Moreover, I am always willing to consider a different point of view. That's one of the many reasons I like to visit this site.

"God knows you personally....he hears your prayers...and He will respond~"

Again, you state your opinion as if it is an established fact. If you would like for me or anyone else here to think that opinion is worth adopting, you will need to give some well-reasoned arguments. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but opinion alone carries no weight whatsoever when it comes to persuading others.

I do hope that you can show more civility and charity in your next post. That *is* in line with your spiritual beliefs, is it not?

Good day.

Hey there, Believers! Man, you fellers are shore right. I'm so glad that Jesus lives in me!

Before I got saved, some people had told me that I had to accept Jesus into my heart. I didn’t understand that much, but Jesus did come to live in me, anyway. Only he didn’t come live in my heart.

Jesus lives in my colon.

That’s right! It happened like this here. I have suffered for years from chronic constipation. Boys, it’s turrible! One day, I was sitting on my porcelain throne just a straining. Lordy, it was hurting me, too. I tried and tried but it just wouldn’t turn loose. It hurt so bad that I started talking out loud to God. I said, “Oh, lordy Jesus, help me!”

And, you know what? He did! I could feel it! Really feel Him! Jesus had come into my colon and was helping me do my business! I hollered out loud, “Push, Jesus, push!” Then I got the soul cleansing relief that I had prayed for!

I’m so glad that Jesus lives in my colon instead of my heart (which is doing fine by itself).

‘Course, I still get constipated. But I know that I can always call on Jesus in my times of need.

Sing with me: “Are you weary? Are you constipated? Tell it to Jesus, tell it to Jesus. He is a friend that’s well known!”

Anonymous,
You said:
"There is a Real God who really does love you. You didn't create yourself...we didn't create this Planet and have it just the right distance form our Sun so to sustain our life"

Until you are intellectually capable of making statements that exhibit more analytical proclivity than the one above, you are just exposing yourself to a liturgy of painful abuse by regulars on this site.

Actually when life started on this planet it was not in the same orbit as it is now, and a billion years from now, it will be in a different orbit, and if life still exists on earth it will have evolved to adapt to the new environment. Maybe humans will have become smarter and won't have the need to believe in mythological, heaven, hell, sin, Satan, make believe stuff.

Think about how silly the crucifixion story is when analyzed in the light of today's knowledge that exposes it as just another pagan (God had a baby with a human, in order to produce a messiah), story.
Dano

Nonexchristian,
It is plainly evident you are in denial. Please read the following web site regarding the stages of disbelief. It's from the Islamic perspective, however, much of it applies to Christianity.

http://www.humanists.net/alisina/wean_from_islam.htm


An excerpt:
"This is the stage of denial. It is a self defense mechanism. If pain is too big, denial will take that pain away. If a mother is informed that her child has died in an accident, the first thing she would do is to deny. People who have lost a loved one often believe that this is all a bad dream and when they wake up everything will be okay. But unfortunately facts are stubborn and they will not go away. One can live in denial for a while but s/he must accept the truth sooner or later. The only mechanism and the natural way to deal with it is denial. Denial takes away the pain. Denial is soothing. Denial is bliss. But denial is hiding ones head in the sand. One cannot stay in denial forever. Sooner or later we have to face the truth and deal with it."


Cheers

Onanite ...you wrote:
I disagree. God is a myth designed to repress the masses and give hope of "Pie in the Sky

The only thing this website does is tell true stories of release from the bondage of Christianity and give support to those who know deep down that God is a lie, and that religion is one of the most destructive of human constructs. This is a historical fact.

From what I was taught in Christianity, your God will allow us freewill for about 80 years here on Earth. Then if we choose this so called freewill and ask simply "Is there a God," or choose to not believe, we are condemned to eternity in a place of horrible torture. Some freewill there.

Maybe you Christians could do that to one of your children, but my friend, I would not be able to inflict pain on my beloved child for a second. Well I guess I am just capable of greater love than you God

We encourage freedom and rational thought. We support each other by sharing our common experiences. I guess that is too much for you huh?


The only thing that is counterfeit in this world is your hateful myth. The silly notion that there is some supreme being out there looking for billions of people to torture for all eternity. Shame on you.

Finally a bit of truth from the false prophet. You know how sick your religion is. You even admit to wanting to "give up." Why then, I must ask myself, don't you? Oh wait you have revealed yourself again. It is how you make your money. A career trying to trap otherwise happy people in your religion. Again I say shame on you.

I am afraid that is all you have to prop up your deceptions. Your denomination and doctrines. How very sad for you.

Onanite

12/23/2005 5:18 PM

***********************

I chose this for you Jim Arvo, as a fine example of the "inteligent discussion" you state represents this website.

Surely being an educated man you can almost "feel" the venom and bitterness dripping from Onanite's words.

I have not had time to read much of this site...and yes I have alot of catching up to do..but it is evident that the webmaster has found a way to invite others to share in his dislike of the Faith he once held dear.

It must give him a sense of security knowing that others can voice their own disapproval and hatred for Christ.

But that is only a guess.

You ( and several others) have aske me to step back and see "how silly" the christian faith is....fair enough.

Are YOU objective enough to do the same when reading the comments on this site?

What I don't understand is why someone would go on an exchristian site and then wonder why they don't get a warm response when they try to sell their god. The people on this site have not only read the bible, but have studied it. You can't prove that your god is the one true god any more than I can prove that fairies live in my back yard. I don't need christianity to live a moral life. And I don't need christianity to get through the hard times in my life.

I'm wondering how many congregants "RealDeal" has in his ministerial flock since he apparently has plenty of time to chat on the Internet with apostates - even on Christmas Eve!

Note: Consider the question rhetorical.

Denial, huh? That is a kicker! :-)

Well, if that is the case, then I can live with it. I love life, but not so much that I fear death. I have more blessings than I can count, but I wouldn't bat an eye if I lost them. Heck, I have already lost much, but gained even more afterward.

I'm just going to keep walking through life with God and trust that I can make it with all my denial. (obviously, the "denial" part is tongue in cheek).

As the Apostle Paul said "I have learned to be content in all things." Of course, I stumble from time to time, but in general, it's all good. As they say in Jamaica - "eyree!" (not so sure about that spelling)

Anyway, I asked people to explain how Christianity has truly caused harm and I have yet to see a response that persuades me. The mere fact that people have done bad things in the name of Christ or God does not mean that Christianity is inherently harmful or the cause of such things. When I see teachings of Christ that are directly harmful, then I might be persuaded. Until then, I don't buy the "guilt by association" tactics typically utilized.

Well, I have to go worship my God and celebrate Christmas. (Yes, I know its origins, but that does not cheapen the celebration. My church and many others also have started celebrating fall festivals as an alternative to Halloween. Years from now I am sure people will say we "stole" it. That would be false, because all we are doing is looking for an acceptable alternative to a secular cultural celebration we might disagree with. I don't see anything insidious or dishonest in that -- but I am sure that some do!)

This has been great fun, but I started on this site not with the intention of continuing to be involved but in trying to figure out why so many have attibuted harm to Christianity. I still don't see it. I do wish you all well, though, and hope that those who are bitter (I'm not saying all are) are able to get past their bitterness and hurt and to enjoy the life they have been given.

Peace!

G'bye Na, Na Na, Na Na ... Na.

If Muslims do horrific things it says nothing against their religion>? If Communists do horrific things it says nothing against their worldview?

Ideas have consequences! As a man thinks in his heart, so is he - right? It is a certain worldview and belief system that makes people blow themselves up and fly planes into buildings. From what you are saying, you think that when a Muslim village cheers when yet another martyr has entered paradise, it says nothing bad about Islam at all - it is just people who don't really understand their religion - or am I completely off the mark in what you are saying?

For many centuries the leaders of Christianity have been responsible for some of the most horrific chapters in history. Good strong Calvinistic preaching supported slavery in the southern US prior to the Civil War. Now militant anti-abortionist heroes lead the fray in Re-constructionist-type churches. I posted a huge list of examples of the horrific things Christianity has caused - naturally you pooh-poohed them all with a slight wave of typical fundie cyber-arrogance.

If you really wanted to research this topic, the topic of how harmful Christianity really is, a topic I sincerely doubt you are interested in researching, a topic you just wanted to mention so as to make some asinine point by jotting a few immature and snotty posts - well if I've misjudged your intention and tone, and you really wanted a real answer, then read this book: The End of Faith by Sam Harris.

Oh, and since this is Christmas Eve, thank you so much for taking your little opportunity with us to spread the unconditional love of your angry, jealous, hellfire and brimstone creating god with your self-congratulatory self-righteousness.

Ho, ho, ho!

One more point for the nonnie:

You really need to study history before there is any hope of discussing this with you intelligently - you are not on the same platform - your platform is founded on "faithful" ignorance.

The Christianity of today is NOT the Christianity of yesterday. The Christianity of yesterday bears little resemblance to the Christianity that existed before that. Christianity has morphed in thousands of ways just like every other man-made religion. The vast improvements in western society have only come about since the vice grip of ignorant "faith" has been replaced by reason. Science and medicine have only been free to advance in the last couple of centuries because Christianity's stranglehold over logical thought has been broken. Under the tutelage of Christianity, ignorance, poverty and disease ran rampant over the world. Since Christianity lost its terrible grip, the human experience has been greatly improved for millions. Only the abandonment of primitive ignorance will continue that trend to a better world - a return to "faith" will consign humanity to another age of darkness, and from the history I've read, not even you would want live there.

nonexchristian: "Well, if that is the case, then I can live with it[denial]."

That's great. You now know you have a personal belief and it's all yours...I can't take that away as you are governed by the secular document called the constitution in the U.S., in which you can express your 1st amendment rights. Just remember, you don't have a universal truth. You have a personal belief, just like the millions of people in the U.S. who think they have been abducted by space aliens have their personal beliefs too.


Cheers

Hey, "Real Deal!" Would you answer my question please?

Sandy: "Well, I have to go worship my God and celebrate Christmas. (Yes, I know its origins, but that does not cheapen the celebration. My church and many others also have started celebrating fall festivals as an alternative to Halloween. Years from now I am sure people will say we "stole" it. That would be false, because all we are doing is looking for an acceptable alternative to a secular cultural celebration we might disagree with. I don't see anything insidious or dishonest in that -- but I am sure that some do!)"

Sandy, here's the history of X-Mas...

"The context in which Christianity, and thus Christmas, was formed was the Roman Empire. The Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, each year beginning on December 17. In a festival called Saturnalia, they glorified past days when the god Saturn ruled. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter solstice which by the Julian calendar fell on December 25. During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, exchanged gifts, and temporarily freed their slaves. Such traditions resemble those of Christmas and are used to establish a link between the two holidays. These and other winter festivities continued through January 1, the festival of Kalends, when Romans marked the day of the new moon and the first day of the month and the beginning of the religious year. As Isaac Asimov comments in his Guide to the Bible, "[C]onverts could join Christianity without giving up their Saturnalian happiness. It was only necessary for them to joyfully greet the birth of the Son rather than the Sun."

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Christmas is not included in Irenaeus's nor Tertullian's list of Christian feasts, the earliest known lists of Christian feasts. The earliest evidence of celebration is from Alexandria, in about 200, when Clement of Alexandria says that certain Egyptian theologians "over curiously" assign not just the year but also the actual day of Christ's birth as 25 Pachon (May 20) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus.[2] By the time of the Council of Nicaea in 325, the Alexandrian church had fixed a dies Nativitatis et Epiphaniae. The December feast reached Egypt in the fifth century. In Jerusalem, the fourth century pilgrim Egeria from Bordeaux witnessed the Feast of the Presentation, forty days after January 6, which must have been the date of the Nativity there. At Antioch, probably in 386, St. John Chrysostom urged the community to unite in celebrating Christ's birth on December 25, a part of the community having already kept it on that day for at least ten years.

Some scholars maintain that December 25 was only adopted in the 4th century as a Christian holiday after Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity to encourage a common religious festival for both Christians and pagans. Perusal of historical records indicates that the first mention of such a feast in Constantinople was not until 379, under Gregory Nazianzus. In Rome, it can only be confirmed as being mentioned in a document from approximately 350 but without any mention of sanction by Emperor Constantine.

Early Christians chiefly celebrated the Epiphany, when the baby Jesus was visited by the Magi (and this is still a primary time for celebration in Spain and Armenia). Historians are unsure exactly when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity of Christ. At times it was forbidden by Protestant churches until after the 1800s because of its association with Catholicism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Your religion/church is attempting to remove Halloween, as the early Roman Church attempted to rob the Pagan's from their tradition... Many Protestants didn't even celebrate X-Mas, over a thousand years because of the Catholic taint of the religious festival...

On the surface, it doesn't appear as if Rome did anything wrong by offering an alternative... however, thousands of years later... We have ignorant Christians running around trying to state that Jesus was born on December 25, as a fact... not just any Christians... "Protestant" Christians... who have been duped into believing a "lie", or who are "liars" themselves for their own purposes...

There is nothing wrong with offering an alternative to begin with for another celebration, however, it has been my experience that Chistianity and the religious in general throughout history have attempted to "rewrite" their own foundations... The fall festivals were created to offer an alternative to those who are celebrating Halloween, to create an "us" and "them" mantra...

And... then... over time... as more and more people start celebrating fall festival(s) (in theory), the "reason" for its inception will change "somehow" from, "we're just trying to offer an alternative to a secular celebration", to "some religiously significant and symbolic reason, with no mention of Halloween"... Thus, as generations pass, children will grow up, losing the "true" history for why there (in theory) is "fall festival"...

Today, there are so many Christians who are ignorant of their religions' past, and its not entirely their fault... its the "religious leaders" and those who conspire with them, who attempt to "wash" and "cleanse" history, by "bait and switch" tactics... Sandy, "you" may not be the "instigator" of such an operation, however, "you" didn't "start" fall festival... I'm curious, if someone asks you later on, "why" you celebrate "fall festival", what will be your response? Will you mention "Halloween", or will you start pushing some "historical revisionism"?

"Historical denial (sometimes called historical revisionism, see qualifier below) is history practiced by those who take on a partisan tone, either as an official state policy, or to advance the interests of a particular group. The revisionist seeks to rewrite history by downgrading or simply ignoring essential facts. In an open society, revisionists can be recognized as such because they challenge the historian community's consensus."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_history

On that note, I'll leave you with, what's "wrong" with Christianity, outside of the negative psychological affects injected in defenseless children, etc... The doctrine itself, is "exclusive", it creates division by defining the "saved" and the "unsaved", this... leads to "bigotry", for many "christians"... Its bigotry, based on the "creed", and "biblical doctrine"... Christianity, evolved from many different belief systems, and was catalyzed by Constantine I, as the Roman sanctioned State Religion...

The bible is akin to a loaded weapon left out in the "open", where anyone can grab it, and use it for their own agenda... there are so many "justified" immoral acts in the bible, that anyone reading it, based on "their intent", can literally quote and justify their actions...

Christianity is "based" on its doctrine, and creed... Without that, jesus, never existed as a deity, as the NT is the only record stating such... A Christian must accept the NT as authoritative, else, their belief is based solely on another persons' personal testimony, i.e., their "faith", is based on error-prone humanity a few thousand years "removed"...

Christianity, promoted as a "fact", instead of a "faith", is harmful to an "open society"... the religion, taken by doctrine as a "fact" becomes nothing less than a loaded weapon with instructions on who to shoot, which has become the basis for murder over the past few thousand years... the religion, taken by doctrine as a "faith", becomes "more benign", and allows for tolerance of Other beliefs...

Now, Sandy, how many Christians do you "know", who would suggest that the "bible" isn't 100%, directly inspired by God, as a "fact"? If you know at least "one", its too many in a "free", civilized society, wanting tolerance...

My above posts... replace, "Sandy" with the name "nonexchristian"...