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encouraging ex-Christians
Rants and articles submitted by and for ex-Christians
By Heather H
This post is really mainly a rant, but it is also an actual question to all Christians out there.
The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place? An old one, perhaps, asked by many here, but over reading the Bible recently I’ve come to a conclusion, possibly a question a lot of people have come to... but I digress. It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.
I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk, (among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none). See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.
Yeah. That never really sat right with me.
But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex. (I give you that some Christians are persecuted… just not where you are if you live in any Western country).
The point is I’ve realised that even if Christianity was ‘the one true faith’ I could never join it. Not ever again. It would be impossible for me to do so.
No, I’m serious here folks. Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition? And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it? If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact? Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)
Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.
Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.
But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.
I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.
Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?
Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.
That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.
There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.
Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.
How can you expect me to respect such a person?
How can you respect such a person?
Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?
This post is really mainly a rant, but it is also an actual question to all Christians out there.
The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place? An old one, perhaps, asked by many here, but over reading the Bible recently I’ve come to a conclusion, possibly a question a lot of people have come to... but I digress. It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.
I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk, (among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none). See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.
Yeah. That never really sat right with me.
But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex. (I give you that some Christians are persecuted… just not where you are if you live in any Western country).
The point is I’ve realised that even if Christianity was ‘the one true faith’ I could never join it. Not ever again. It would be impossible for me to do so.
No, I’m serious here folks. Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition? And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it? If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact? Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)
Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.
Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.
But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.
I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.
Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?
Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.
That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.
There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.
Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.
How can you expect me to respect such a person?
How can you respect such a person?
Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?
Onanite
And we non-believers know a thing or two about that!
It's self deception. A lie, to cover up how the white man killed all the Native American Indians and it is used for justification to forgive every wrong done to another human being, the Bible is used to justify every war, every rape, murder, child molestion, bigamy, lie, cheat, and steal.
Religions are a mind set invented to take the focus away from the reality of humans' cruelty to other human beings.
Once confirmed in the Christians' mind, they are not willng to admit that they have been lied to by the people whom they thought were the must trust worthy people in their lives.
They cannot see, nor are they willing to admit that they have been lied to by parents, grandparents, teachers, preachers, doctors, lawyers, televangelists, political leaders, kinfolks, because we have all been lied to.
An xtain can find no fault in the Bible, to admit fault would also be admiting that they too were wrong and have been wrong in their thinking.
Nice rant btw.
How absurd. Why would you value the life of a homocidal maniac more than your own? It seems you have issues of self-loathing that override common sense. What value to humanity is in preserving the life of a homocidal maniac?
How much more obvious can it be?
I mean our claendar is based on Christ and He is the nost well known figure in History!
And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death? I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin! If Adam had not messed up and eaten that Apple we would never be in the situation we are in today! God ahs to follow rules to and the rules are that infants of sinners should die cause they will be raised to be worshipping another god anyways!
Listen I understand your search and all that but your post lacks ONE thing/
Faith.
You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?
FAITH IS THE BELIEF IF SOMETHING UNVERIFYABLE AND WITH LACK OF EVIDENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE.
I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever.
Not because God wants you to, but because you made that choice! If you cannot even give him the respect He deserves now in this life how do you expect to go to Heaven?
I mean it is the easiest test in the world! There are mentally retarded people that can just bleiueve and are going to Heaven but there are geniuses like Einstein who failed the test snd npow will be goingto Hell.
Listen I live in the deep south and I have something to tell all you seekers out there.
I know a fancy pants lawyer named Stephen. He goes on all day how the Bible is contradictory and how he can show me 101 reasons why the Bible is bunk.
Then there is Carl. Carl works at the gas station with me on weekends and he is not very educated. In fact he is lucky to have gotton a job here at Value Gas cause he doesnt have a GED. But do you want to know something?
Carl believes!
Not because he has the "evidence" or the "proof" but because he trusts his moma and dada that they raised him right and were telling him the Truth about God and Jesus.
So in a nutshell my buddy Stephen will be going to HELL forever and ever and my buddy Carl will be going to HEAVEN. Do you see WHY that is so?
BECAUSE CARL HAS FAITH AND STEPHEN DOES NOT!
IT IS SO EASY TO GET IN THE PEARLY GATES!
IT IS SO SIMPLE THAT EVEN EINSTEIN FAILED THE TEST AND WILL ROAST AND TOAST FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER
PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR STANCE ON JESUS AND PLEASE REMEBER THAT HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH THAT HE DIED FOR YOU AND CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH FOR YOU IF YOU WONT BELIEVE IN HIM!
PLEASE!
Somasight: "Have you guys forgot about the Truth and reality that there IS a Stan?"
Of course there's a Stan! He used to play Bass in My band. And there was the guy who used to play for the Chicago Blackhawks. (The Stan from Marvel Comics is pretty cool, too... 'Nuff said.)
"And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death?"
That's one fucked-up problem-resolution system your imaginary friend has. May I suggest hiring a management consultant?
"I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin!"
No, that's the result of superstitious bigots murdering people because some asshole priest told them it was "God's Will."
"...and the rules are that infants of sinners should die cause they will be raised to be worshipping another god anyways!"
Y'know, I think we should go kick the living crap out of that vicious bastard of a god instead. (Assuming that it actually exists, that is...) I'm free after supper tonight; want Me to do it? :D
"You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?"
Delusion.
"I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever."
Bring it on.
"If you cannot even give him the respect He deserves..."
We *are* giving Biblegod the respect it deserves.
None at all.
A deity that orders the murder of infants is not worthy of *any* respect.
How can you even think of worshipping such a hateful, immoral being? Are you so scared of Hell that you would lower yourself to kiss the ass of a torturer-god? Confront the fear, or it will haunt you to the end of your days on earth.
"So in a nutshell my buddy Stephen will be going to HELL forever and ever and my buddy Carl will be going to HEAVEN."
I have no doubt that you believe the above statement to be true. But can you actually prove it? Can you demonstrate (without resorting to the Bible or apologetics or your own faith) that your god and heaven and hell actually exist, somewhere in the universe?
Oh, and "faith" is one of the most useless and damaging concepts ever put forth by humanity.
- You can use it to pretend that invisible friends exist.
- You can use it as an excuse to not face reality.
- And you can use it to look down your nose at people who have seen through the smoke and mirrors and bullshit, people like us who have freed ourselves from the delusion of Christianity.
Wishing the very same for you, kid... Get well soon.
Have you guys forgot about the Truth and reality that there IS a Stan?
Well sure Soma', I've actually met a "Stan" a few times in my life.
So yeah, I'd say Stan is just as 'real' as any other human I ever met.
> Have you forgoton that Satan wants us all to burn and will do ANYTHING to make it so? You see, I am a Christian. I have been fro 20 years. I have read all these atheist websites and the only conclusion I can come up with is that Satan is real and is deceiving you!
How much more obvious can it be?
Oh gosh, I never thought of like that before.
Imagine, there is a devil who's interfering with my thought processes for all these long years.
Does that mean Soma', that I have my own personal demon attending to my brain 24/7?
Just how many demons do you think there are on earth, that can baby-sit all us heathens 24/7?
Maybe the devil made a few million extra demons, as our population greatly increased through time?
He sure is one powerful devil....WOE. Just gotta respect that kind of power huh.
>I mean our claendar is based on Christ and He is the nost well known figure in History!
You can't be serious, can you?
Nah, you have to be a troll that is toying with us, with lame comments like that..RIGHT?
>And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death?
Well then, I got nothing to worry about, because when I die and am gone gone gone, my so called "sins" will be all paid up for. Thank goodness for small favors.
> I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin!
Or it might be the result of some really mentally SICK story tellers of old.
>If Adam had not messed up and eaten that Apple we would never be in the situation we are in today! God ahs to follow rules to and the rules are that infants of sinners should die cause they will be raised to be worshipping another god anyways!
First off Soma', if you are going to preach at us, at least read your bible FIRST before you do. It doesn't say it was an "apple", but it does say it was a FRUIT.
Maybe it was a Banana, as that seems to be a xtian fundie favorite these days to talk about.
So if god fails to follow 'the rules', then who punishes god......another bigger badder god?
Yeah, I guess your reasoning about killing off the infants of the sinners makes great sense, especially when we look at how well it worked in your bible when god killed off everything on earth to erase the wicked.
Oh, you mean the wicked came back and god's plan FAILED.....say it isn't so please.
>Listen I understand your search and all that but your post lacks ONE thing/
Faith.
I have plenty of FAITH.....Faith, that you are severely deluded and we are not.
>You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?
FAITH IS THE BELIEF IF SOMETHING UNVERIFYABLE AND WITH LACK OF EVIDENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE.
Yes, your BLIND faith means you EASILY believe in ANYTHING that you so desire to believe in, whether it's real or not.
Catch any UFO's with little green men, in your backyard lately, hmmmm?
Just curious is all.
>I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever.
What national news-show did you see this news flash on, because I must have missed it Soma.
Not to worry about the burning stuff, as I already packed up my marshmallows for the occasion. Well, that and my asbestos zuit-suit.
Hey Soma, don't forget, you have been elected to bring along the Jiffy Pop Popcorn, okay.
>Not because God wants you to, but because you made that choice! If you cannot even give him the respect He deserves now in this life how do you expect to go to Heaven?
How does one give respect to a thing that never existed?
Should I also give respect to Harry Potter and Spiderman, as well?
>I mean it is the easiest test in the world! There are mentally retarded people that can just bleiueve and are going to Heaven but there are geniuses like Einstein who failed the test snd npow will be goingto Hell.
Did it ever dawn on you that the reason they might believe in such delusions of the mind, is because they are "mentally retarded"?
No, I suppose such a thing would never dawn on YOU.
>Listen I live in the deep south and I have something to tell all you seekers out there.
REALLY?
The deep south, you say?
Gosh, you could have fooled me (or not).
>I know a fancy pants lawyer named Stephen. He goes on all day how the Bible is contradictory and how he can show me 101 reasons why the Bible is bunk.
Do me a favor and say HELLO to Stephen for us, as I have great RESPECT for him, far more than I have for your imaginary god being.
>Then there is Carl. Carl works at the gas station with me on weekends and he is not very educated. In fact he is lucky to have gotton a job here at Value Gas cause he doesnt have a GED. But do you want to know something?
Carl believes!
Please give my condolences to Carl. What a shame his mind is still stuck in your god bubble world.
Maybe if he got his GED he might have a chance of seeing reality.....Whatcha think Soma?
>Not because he has the "evidence" or the "proof" but because he trusts his moma and dada that they raised him right and were telling him the Truth about God and Jesus.
Oh, so you're saying his whole family suffers this delusion as well....poor things.
>So in a nutshell my buddy Stephen will be going to HELL forever and ever and my buddy Carl will be going to HEAVEN. Do you see WHY that is so?
No, but I see why YOUR thinking is all twisted up.
But it's never too late to go to school and get educated Soma......Hurry before it's too late as we don't live forever you know.
>IT IS SO EASY TO GET IN THE PEARLY GATES!
So I take it you've seen and touched these "pearly gates", have you?
>IT IS SO SIMPLE THAT EVEN EINSTEIN FAILED THE TEST AND WILL ROAST AND TOAST FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER
I doubt Mister Einstein thinks he failed any test and in fact, right now he's not thinking much of anything, as he is quite dead, I'm SORRY to say.
>PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR STANCE ON JESUS AND PLEASE REMEBER THAT HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH THAT HE DIED FOR YOU AND CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH FOR YOU IF YOU WONT BELIEVE IN HIM!
PLEASE!
How exactly does a figment of your imagination, "love me so much"?
I guess that is how it must feel to be loved by a star trek holodeck person, yes?
You can stop begging Soma, as any emotional appeal you will find totally useless here.
If you want to make an impression, try providing evidence of your god or jesus and then we'll discuss your claims.
Until then, crawl back into your safe god bubble and stay there please.
ATF (Who thinks Soma' named himself after the Muscle Relaxer "SOMA"; which might have 'relaxed' MORE than just some muscles)
Seriously folks, on this site that post must be one of us parodying a believer.
Somasight who are you? Come on, come clean.
--S.
But then one must consider that, in order for a spoof to exist, it must have a referent in reality.
Or, to put it less kindly, there *are* people out there who actually think like that.
Scary stuff, boys and girls...
There are many Stans in the world, but no talking snakes.
Have you forgoton that Satan wants us all to burn and will do ANYTHING to make it so?
I think you meant "forgotten", and no, we have not forgotten your generally ridiculous yet at times heinously evil mythology.
I have read all these atheist websites and the only conclusion I can come up with is that Satan is real and is deceiving you!
How much more obvious can it be?
You mean encountering all of that truth, all of those facts, all of that reason, and all of that common sense really leads you to believe that we are deceived by a talking snake?
I mean our claendar is based on Christ and He is the nost well known figure in History!
I think you meant "calendar". Kryasst is the most well known MYTH in history!
And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death?
I think you meant "guys". Sin is a mythological concept taken from an ancient Book of Myths. Nobody needs to Croak in the Spook for mythology or over a mythological concept.
I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin!
Your god is obviously a monster!
You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?
Yes, because there is NO evidence for the existence of God or for any major Christian claims. Faith is magical thinking and delusion.
I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever.
If you don't wake the fuck up and start thinking for yourself, you will waste the only life you have living in fear of ancient myths.
Or, to put it less kindly, there *are* people out there who actually think like that
I very much considered this Somasight to be a spoof, but as sure as the sun will appear in the morning, there are indeed fundies who write and think this way.
If anyone has any doubts of such, please pay a visit to this site to see the fundie mind operating at it's 'best'.
http://www.fstdt.com/
ATF (Who wonders how such minds can even exist in this day and age)
That logic collides with basic tenets of human decency that even most FUNDIES practice. (Confronted with the tales of God killing babies in the OT, of course, they will find some justification, but that's beside the point.) For someone to come out and say it's okay to kill the babies of "sinners" (and I thought we were all sinners, so I'm going to assume Soma meant non-Christians) is pretty damn bold and out there.
This is 100% correct, it's called "BELIEF"
A Belief is not a "FACT"
A BELIEF is not an absolute FACT
A belief is an individual held position of "I think it is so, not because of any substantiated evidence, but because I want to believe it is the truth, mainly because my mommy and daddy said it is the truth and if I choose not to believe what my mommy and daddy say is true, then that would be like me calling my mommy and daddy liars and not to dishonor my mommy and daddy, I will believe what they say is the truth, because the Bible says not to dishonor my mommy and daddy, so that proves the Bible is true.
But it has never occured to me that they, mommy and daddy were just repeating what they too were told was true and out of respect for their parents they never questioned what their parents told them about the Bible being true.
(I'll refer you back to my original comment)
I've heard many preachers say, Satan believes in Jesus, if that being the case, John 3:16 states that Satan is a Christian.
Praise be to Satan and Jesus or is it, Praise be to Stan and Jebus?
Now I'm really confused, help me out there, somasight or is that obamasight?
If I was a god and I told someone not to eat my damned apple, I too would punish all people to an eternal hell, unless of course they kissed my son's ass, just like I asked them to.
He's a spoof.
Soma: please don't spoof this site.
Thanks.
He's a spoof.
Yes, I seem to recall the name, as well as the bizarre posts. The problem with spoofers is that it's often hard to tell the difference between the contrived stupidity of the spoofer, and the stupidity that is seemingly innate in the religious.
I hope not to speak out of a place of hate or anything like that...
Some of these questions I've thought about as well.
If you look at Christianity, it's a little crazy. It actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not. It's not about morality, but about humility...saying that we can't save ourselves. There's this strange idea of human imperfection that I think all of us implicitly recognize. But yes, in that way, God leaves salvation open for everybody. He does not want to limit it to a few, for like you said, we are considered his children and he loves us. He doesn't say, only the smart ones, or beautiful ones, can be saved. He wants everyone to be saved: "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son" [john 3.16].
But for those who go to hell, someone once said it like this: God allows people to have what they want, though he desires so much for us to have what is better. Some people do not want to be near God, and so God allows them to choose what they want.
Where do our ideas of justice come from? We have this sense that when someone does something wrong, he must pay a penalty. In the same way, God is both loving and just. He loves us, but he is also not a God who just changes the rules whenever he feels like it. Because he is holy, he cannot bear sin; there is a price for sin, and because God is just, he must stick to His word: that there is punishment for sin. If he were a God who simply arbitrarily made up the rules, or changed them, like you said, He would not be a God that I could respect. But He's both things combined. This was an illustration that someone shared. It is like a king who orders that people shouldn't throw trash on the court[or whatever else], or will receive 100 lashings. His mother, however, proceeds to do so. What can the king do? Being just, he will not just change the rule or make one little exception for his mom. Rather, he orders that his mother be whipped. But at the last moment, he takes off his robe and his crown, and he covers the mom with his own body, and takes the 100 lashings. That is the kind of God Christians believe in- just, but also loving and merciful.
I understand what you mean about having trouble respecting a God who seems to be on a power trip, as seen in the Old Testament. But if you examine it more closely, it is not about a power trip. God is powerful, and that is undeniable. But most, God desires to save people, if they will turn to him, and wants to have relationship with them. He gives numerous chances to people and even sends people like Job to preach to places like Ninervah so that people will be saved. Additionally, even when the Israelites "cheat" on him by serving other gods, even after He has shown love and favor and himself to them, He continues to love them and be faithful to them. You might think that it's unfair, God only shows himself to the Israelites, but he actually chooses the Israelites so that they can bless other nations (the rest of the world) and so that they can know of his salvation. That becomes most clear through Jesus Christ, who is sent to save everyone who believes on him.
Something I have also come to realize, about the "power trip" God, is that God is deserving of glory. Think about how many human beings we worship today- rock stars, movie stars, etc., and how willingly we do so. But God is far more worthy of worship than them; he is perfect, and he is loving, and that is why he demands worship. As human beings, we rebel against this and don't want to hear it, because we want to worship ourselves. But if we truly came before something pure and perfect, if our hearts were humble, I think we would worship, and want others to worship as well. It's also God's realization of what is best for our hearts- when I really worship God, I am caught up in something bigger and far better than myself. I can stop being consumed by my own worries and doubts and self-interest. I don't know if you've ever felt that...just being sick and tired of being consumed by selfishness or self centeredness. But yeah, I would say perhaps look at the Old Testament again..."Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice." [Isaiah 30:18]. He WANTS to be gracious, he even gets up to show us compassion. There are undeniably accounts of warfare in the OT, but look carefully at the God that is depicted.
Why I would say Christians speak of their faith to you is because they do believe it is truth. But also because they see how much Christ has changed their lives. People are imperfect, and will always be so, but Christ is perfect, and is trying to make us more like him- more loving, gracious, serving. ...I can say that he has changed my life, and that things are not always perfect, but I always know he is the rock that I can stand on. And that his love for me is greater than I can ever know. I am enjoying trying to learn more about it now.
I can say many more things...about many religions being true: truth necessarily means there are things which are false. It doesn't mean that we condemn people from different faiths, but that we love them and try to show them truth. Sometimes I think other religions for me capture some of the goodness and truth of God; it is not that they are entirely false, but that their hope is not what it should be [Christ], or it is not ultimately in what can save them. Yeah...and I often doubted, thought that religion was for the foolish and the stupid, etc. But looking back I see the ways in which I refused to see God when he was there, and how bitter my mind and my heart became, trying to hold that fort down of human independence against him. Cause like I said, we're imperfect, and so, the fort I'm trying to support by is always crumbling.
That is all...I'm sorry, I hope you don't mind this long post. And please let me know if you have any questions. There are always answers out there, if you are seeking.
That's like saying that swimming in a tank full of tiger sharks with a ribeye attached to your foot, is a "little crazy".
Esther...It[Christianity] actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not.
Wow. Astonishing. A Christian who seemingly admits that "Commandments" and "Divine Laws" mean nothing; the only real "sin" is non-belief. True. Yet, I take it a step further, and say that non-belief in the non-evident cannot be a "sin". Therefore, there is no "sin", until you provide convincing evidence for the non-evident. Furthermore, if "Jesus" is allegedly alive---that is, if "He lives!"---then there is no/was no "sacrifice", as well.
So then---no "sacrifice"; no "sin"; no "salvation" = no "Christianity".
Esther...It's not about morality, but about humility
No, you had it right the first time--it's about belief in "Yahweh", the "God" of the Christian bible. Nothing else.
Esther......[Christianity is about]saying that we can't save ourselves.
Pardon me, but save ourselves? From whAT?
Esther...There's this strange idea of human imperfection that I think all of us implicitly recognize.
Honestly, what is so "strange" about it? Being imperfect is part of our very nature--it's part of our human nature. If we were perfect, we'd possess all the attributes/characteristics of "gods". And if memory serves me, biblegod is adamantly against all other Gods; He is a "jealous god", thus, what better way to see to it that no one surpasses his excellency, than to "create" beings inferior to itself. While were on the subject, I simply don't buy the christian concept that we were "created in God's image", because if that were the case, we'd lack the propensity to make imperfect decisions, as our great, great, great, great, etc., Grandparents did, in the alleged "Garden". Do you see the inconsistency there?
Esther...But yes, in that way, God leaves salvation open for everybody.
I have to wonder what you mean by "open"? Do you mean, we are "open" to not accept "salvation" on "Faith"? Or is it, we MUST accept "salvation" on "Faith", that is, if we don't won't to be incinerated. Is not the latter senario what you really mean?
Esther...He does not want to limit it to a few, for like you said, we are considered his children and he loves us. He doesn't say, only the smart ones, or beautiful ones, can be saved.
No, not only the "smart ones", and "beautiful ones", etc..but only those who believe, as you were kind enough to point out to us from the onset. Thanks for that, BTW.
Esther...He wants everyone to be saved: "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son" [john 3.16].
You gave the PG13 version. The adult, R-rated version, is thus:
"He wants everyone to be saved: 'For God so loved the WORLD that He sent himself to be executed, so he could then manipulate his creation into loving him, to appease His own vanity'."
Esther...But for those who go to hell, someone once said it like this: God allows people to have what they want, though he desires so much for us to have what is better. Some people do not want to be near God, and so God allows them to choose what they want.
Forgive me, but the apologetic you just attempted amounts to equivocation, and weasle-wording.
If our "free will" is so important, there are myriad other ways for "God" to have its desires met, that wouldn't require "hell" as an alternative. For instance, he could just let us expire into oblivion if we so choose, and that wouldn't hamper our "free will". And any way, if "God" is really so "great" and a joy to be around, he's got nothing to worry about, right?(rhetorical)
Nope, it's not about morality. It's about having the correct ideas and attitudes about "right" religion. If you profess to possess the "right" religion, then your bad actions are quickly forgiven, forgotten and unimportant. If you profess to possess the "wrong" religion, or worse yet, no religion, then your good actions are worthless.
With Christianity, actions and behaviors are irrelevant. All that matters is that you "believe" the correct stuff.
Silly.
I fully agree. Another reason for this is the fact,that if we accept the concept of jewdo-christian God,then we have to accept that this omnipotent all-loving deity is the accomplice of every crime,that ever happened. For example,he could've stopped Hiroshima or Chikatilo,but he just sat back and watched.
Now to our trolls.
IT IS SO EASY TO GET IN THE PEARLY GATES!
Is this an euphemism for vagina?
IT IS SO SIMPLE THAT EVEN EINSTEIN FAILED THE TEST AND WILL ROAST AND TOAST FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER
Anyone who writes stuff like that MUST be a troll. )))
It actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are
That's another stupid thing about xtianity.
He wants everyone to be saved
EPIC FAIL!
Just kidding,even Bible says,that he doesn't:
re-read Mark 4:10-34, Luke 8:10 .
We have this sense that when someone does something wrong, he must pay a penalty.
HE,but not someone else. I mean,according to your logic we should've said to Chikatilo "3 inocent men died for your sins" and let him go,right?
He loves us, but he is also not a God who just changes the rules whenever he feels like it.<...> If he were a God who simply arbitrarily made up the rules, or changed them, like you said, He would not be a God that I could respect.
Oh really? Do you obey 613 commandments containted in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses? Especially,545-549?
he is perfect, and he is loving, and that is why he demands worship.
Would someone perfect and loving DEMAND worship?
if we truly came before something pure and perfect
Guess what? We didn't.
And that his love for me is greater than I can ever know.
I think,that you should try falling in love with someone more imperfect and less mythical.
It doesn't mean that we condemn people from different faiths
Actually,you do.
"Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." (Exodus 22:19)
Which makes it completely useless as a way of life. In My opinion, people who willingly let someone else take the fall for something they didn't even do are cowards and moral eunuchs, and are in no position to inform civil society about what is "right" or "wrong".
....but he is also not a God who just changes the rules whenever he feels like it.
So did god tell you that he will never change his "rules"?
Was this information given to you Esther, directly by god, or are you using 2000+ year old information from your bible book instead?
In either case, what evidence can you provide to us (or yourself) that your god put himself into a 'corner', where he will never allow himself to change any of these rules going forward?
Think about this....If god is real and all-powerful and decided to change the rules for you xtians, what will you and your ilk do about it, hmmm?
Take god to court?
Appeal to a higher god?
Wage war against god?
Why anyone would put such grand trust in some invisible, non-provable and non-active god, just shows me how gullible some folks can be.
It's okay Esther, you go right ahead and put all your 'money' on this god-gamble but please don't expect the rest of us to place our bets on your so called, 'sure-thing' .
> Because he is holy, he cannot bear sin;
So you're saying that god can't 'bear' sin, which means god must have feelings then, yes?
Isn't a god who has feelings, also a god who has weaknesses then to, hmm?
Think about that Esther.
>there is a price for sin, and because God is just, he must stick to His word:
Once again, what force in the universe is 'making' god "stick" to his word?
> If he were a God who simply arbitrarily made up the rules, or changed them, like you said, He would not be a God that I could respect.
Now you're catching on, almost.
Funny thing is that your god did in fact change himself over the eons, yet you xtians ignore that he did so. Why?
Oddly enough, even if your god were real, I would never respect the god that your bible portrays him to be !!
> His mother, however, proceeds to do so. What can the king do? Being just, he will not just change the rule or make one little exception for his mom. Rather, he orders that his mother be whipped. But at the last moment, he takes off his robe and his crown, and he covers the mom with his own body, and takes the 100 lashings. That is the kind of God Christians believe in- just, but also loving and merciful.
This is wonderful evidence that shows just how deep the xtian brainwashing can screw with a human mind.
If you could only see the illogic in your so called son-of-man having to sacrifice himself so his Daddy would look more kindly towards his human pets.
If that were the basic lame plot of a modern movie, the script would be burned in a heartbeat.
> God only shows himself to the Israelites, but he actually chooses the Israelites so that they can bless other nations (the rest of the world) and so that they can know of his salvation.
So you're trying to say that god just happen to have picked the Israelites, over any other nation, making them his "chosen people"?
So it's only coincidence that the Jews tell a story about THEIR god, and how their god protected them from all other tribes. Tribes that the Jewish god had no problem torturing and killing, right?
It couldn't possibly be that this Jewish god was just a mere fable the Jews made up.
Why is it that only the Jews knew of this particular god, until they told others about their god?
Why didn't god introduce himself to all the other tribes on earth, IN PERSON, like he did with the Jews?
Nice fable you got there Esther....what a shame you buy it so easily.
>Something I have also come to realize, about the "power trip" God, is that God is deserving of glory.
I don't think anyone here would say your god is deserving of "GLORY".
So I guess it's just your fellow xtians that assert this, yes?
While you're at it, please tell me what this word 'GLORY' is suppose to mean, hmm?
>Think about how many human beings we worship today- rock stars, movie stars, etc., and how willingly we do so.
Sorry, but I don't worship ANY of these, not a one.
I may like some of them, enjoy their acting or music, but they are not something to worship by any means.
Then again, neither is your make believe god for that matter.
>But God is far more worthy of worship than them; he is perfect
Who deemed this god "perfect"....YOU?
If he wasn't perfect, how would you know it?
> and he is loving, and that is why he demands worship.
No, he demands worship, because the folks who made him up long ago, decided that any god should be worshipped by mankind.
Folks like you don't bother to question that creed, so you just comply, see?
> As human beings, we rebel against this and don't want to hear it, because we want to worship ourselves.
Once again, I don't worship anything, not even myself, so you are out in left field once again Esther.
I will say however, that I will rebel against the god of your bible, as that god is a WACKO.
> But if we truly came before something pure and perfect, if our hearts were humble, I think we would worship, and want others to worship as well.
I would never want anyone to worship the god of your bible book !!
I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
> It's also God's realization of what is best for our hearts- when I really worship God, I am caught up in something bigger and far better than myself.
Yes, and that bigger/better thing has a name to....It's called DELUSION Esther.
> I don't know if you've ever felt that...just being sick and tired of being consumed by selfishness or self centeredness.
Nope, can't say that applies to me...Sorry about that.
> There are undeniably accounts of warfare in the OT, but look carefully at the God that is depicted.
Doesn't it bother you that your OT god had to use humans to do all his fighting?
With such power, he could just remove the life force from any enemy troops, but instead, he actually lost a war because his enemy had "chariots of iron"....Go Figure Huh?
>Why I would say Christians speak of their faith to you is because they do believe it is truth.
Yes, and the Bigfoot folks and Alien/UFO believers, also speak of their beliefs because they believe them to be true to.
Belief in something doesn't make it real.....You might want to keep that in mind going forward in your life.
> But also because they see how much Christ has changed their lives.
No god changed their lives. They did it all themselves, or perhaps with some help from other humans, but for sure no god changed a single human at any time.
If god did so, please provide evidence of such...thanks.
> People are imperfect, and will always be so, but Christ is perfect, and is trying to make us more like him- more loving, gracious, serving.
Once again, how do you know your jebus is perfect?
Define 'perfect' for us please....thanks.
> ...I can say that he has changed my life, and that things are not always perfect, but I always know he is the rock that I can stand on.
Let's hope when your rock crumbles, that you don't fall TOO far or TOO hard.
>I can say many more things...about many religions being true: truth necessarily means there are things which are false. It doesn't mean that we condemn people from different faiths, but that we love them and try to show them truth.
No, what you and your kind do, is to try and brainwash everyone else into your delusional world. If you didn't feel so compelled to do so, and to influence our lives, then we wouldn't care what you think or believe when it comes to your god myth.
> Sometimes I think other religions for me capture some of the goodness and truth of God; it is not that they are entirely false, but that their hope is not what it should be [Christ],
I'm sure they would say the same about YOU and you kind to.
That you worship a false god and their god is the right one.
You ALL tell the same story to us, yet not everyone can be right, can they Esther?
>Yeah...and I often doubted, thought that religion was for the foolish and the stupid, etc.
You mean you once knew reality and somehow lost touch with it.....What a PITY.
> But looking back I see the ways in which I refused to see God when he was there...
Yes, and I refused to see Lord Zeus once upon a time and now well, oh heck, I still can't see him, but I know he is as real as your xtian god is.
How many gods do you now refuse to see Esther, hmmm?
I bet you turn your back on all of them, but the one you chose to get a big bear hug from, yes?
>That is all...I'm sorry, I hope you don't mind this long post. And please let me know if you have any questions. There are always answers out there, if you are seeking.
Yes, I have questions for you Esther.
You believe that jesus was real and was the son of god who walked the earth, yes?
Please tell me how you know this to be true?
Where is your historical evidence that such a jesus existed and did all those special magic tricks and then took a three day nap and then floated up to heaven to be with his Daddy?
Oddly enough, there is no record outside your cherished bible of such an event, yet you are positive that it happened.....WHY??????
ATF (Who wonders how many xtians this warped god-bubble can hold, and not bust open from the strain)
Ah, great! So if Josef Fritzl repents, he'll go to heaven. But other decent fathers who never even thought of touching their daughters indecently will definitely go to hell. Because, well, they didn't accept the sacrifice of Jesus.
Can't you see the non-sense of that? Frankly, if God wants me to believe in him, he will have to be more logical and just and MUCH smarter.
But yes, in that way, God leaves salvation open for everybody. He does not want to limit it to a few,
Yes, the Cristian god wants to limit it to a few: to the scum of the earth. There is plenty of room in heaven for all the criminals. Maybe I should become one!
sorry, i just wanted to clarify this.
the sin is already presupposed. this is looking at the world around us- it is not as it should be, i think we can all feel that. there are good things, but there is also much bad, hate mixed into it.
by not making salvation a matter of getting the best grade in terms of "being good" [something that we probably could not do], God allows salvation to be given to all. on faith, yes, but if there is a willingness to see God where he is, that faith will be given and be had. the point is not that good people can't get into heaven if they don't believe; it's rather that all of us can't get into heaven, because none of us are perfectly good. so grace- a second chance, regardless of where you've been or what you've done- is given.
and having believed, actually being a christian is to push on to be a better person, to love others, to serve others, to forgive, to be just. and i hope that everyone does this, whether they are christian or not.
there actually also is historical corrobration for the existence of jesus outside of the bible, from historians josephus and tacitus.
that is all <3
for anyone with a desire for real truth, it is out there.
one dictionary definition of fear is: reverential awe, esp. toward God.
it actually has nothing to do with being afraid or frightened. everyone gets this mixed up. this type of fear actually means honour and respect - which is why people get confused. it is not saying to be afraid of God and respect Him at the same time. It is simply saying to respect Him. We get confused because we aren't used to that use of the word fear.
I understand that you have many other complaints against christianity and God, and I understand that. I just wanted to clear that one thing up for you.
Hope it helps!
I would like to ask you a couple of question. Do you accept the possibility that your position may be wrong? Would that not be a position of intellectual humility on your part? Do you take the position that your beliefs are the superior ones that others, such as ourselves (atheists) should take on if we are to be part of god's family?
On what basis do you accept the idea that god as revealed in the bible is the one true god? Is it because the bible says so? Have you thoroughly read what other religions say about their version of god?
Would you not agree with me that if all people simply lived by the golden rule then getting along on planet earth would be much easier?
And if you do believe that the god of the bible is the one true god why did he wait for thousands of years before intervening in human affairs?
Why is belief in a "middle eastern" god more plausible than belief in the god of the Aztecs or babylonians or any other people group throughout history?
I have many more questions but if you can address these then perhaps we can all begin to see who we are dealing with here.
Thanks,
"sorry, i just wanted to clarify this.
the sin is already presupposed. this is looking at the world around us- it is not as it should be, i think we can all feel that."
Bad behaviours, natural disasters, and nature red in tooth and claw are real.
"Sin" is none of those things. It is a religious construct with no anchor in reality, because the god who has supposedly been violated has not been proven to exist.
"...it's rather that all of us can't get into heaven, because none of us are perfectly good."
No, the reason we can't get into "heaven" is that the very existence of the place is unproven and highly improbable.
"...actually being a christian is to push on to be a better person, to love others, to serve others, to forgive, to be just."
Christianity has no monopoly on the idea of being a good person. None.
It does, however, taint the human mind with the idea of hereditary evil.
Then it offers as a "cure" the obligatory worship of a zombie rabbi who was sacrificed to appease a bloodthirsty and genocidal god. I'll give that particular remedy a miss, thanks.
"for anyone with a desire for real truth, it is out there."
Possibly. But it almost certainly isn't in the Bible, nor is it in Christianity.
Oh, and don't waste your time with Josephus. The original text has been tampered with, the reference to Jesus having been added several centuries after the original writing. For instance, Kenneth Olson of the University of Maryland makes a rather good case for the Testimonium Flavianum being the work of Eusebius.
As for Tacitus... At the alleged time of the Gospel events, he hadn't even been born. Definitely not an eye witness to anything meaningful.
I was thinking that most of the christians that post on this site are perhaps not true christians. What I mean by this is that perhaps what most people mean when they say that they are christians is that they simply desire to live a good and ethical life.
By saying this I am not giving the religion a pass but rather that most of the "rank and file" that fill up church pews are really not aware of the "fine print" that is a part of their adopted world view (christianty).
I think that most of the rank and file christians are simply people who want to somehow "change" their lives through something, anything; even if that is religion. Look, there is no end to the trail of TV preachers that constantly promise their viewers that god is "about to do something great" in their lives. Preachers who make such promises holds tremendous appeal to individuals who have never had to deal with the existential questions that most of us atheists have already dealt with.
The fact that someone else is promising to "take them into the promised land" is appealing to the intellectually unsophisticated.
Anyway, these are some ideas that I've been thinking about when it comes dealing with christians in everyday life. I know that there are fanatics out there that are truly deluded and make things difficult for others. It is annoying to hear and read other christians posts because we've come out of that religious thinking.
Well thanks for reading.
i believe, not simply because of the Bible, but because of what i see morally, historically, experientially.
and i don't view this, couch this in terms of superiority or not...that is not what i believe christianity is about. yes, i believe it as true, and then people can interpret that as my saying my beliefs are superior, but what motivates me to even write on this wall is if i believe that if there is real love, true love in God, and his message, i would desire it for all those i care about, and humanity. i can't force anyone to be a part of God's family, and i won't, but i can try to say what i believe, just as you can. this is good so that lots of people can dialogue. and i see that there are a lot of presuppositions that go into that, because of different views of the desirability of being in God's family or even what that family is like. but yeah. i don't think i am superior because i have experienced faith, nor am i deserving of the faith i have, but i am blessed.
on christians, people do desire change, but i believe that desire comes from somewhere. and people desire all the things that -maybe material wealth or success or fame- but i am not in it for the prosperity gospel. i know the fine print, and i am trying to learn more about this God because i believe knowing him is "eternal life". not because i simply want to gain a free pass to heaven, because i have found nothing on this earth that satisfies, but have found it in the glimpses i have of God. i have struggled with existential questions- "everything is meaningless"- and that is what has led me to christianity.
Would you not agree with me that if all people simply lived by the golden rule then getting along on planet earth would be much easier?
i agree. so much. i think many people would. but i do not think it is possible, at least from what i have seen in myself and in others. and i think the world as it is now shows this. human nature is a certain way, and i think that christianity explains why it is so. there are definitely other explanations, but i think christianity as a whole worldview most broadly encompasses and explains what i see.
but i think that is the greatest question- i desire to live by the golden rule, i desire for a world in which everyone lives by the golden rule. and i sincerely believe its not possible on my own strength. christianity certainly does not have the monopoly on who is good or not. that is clear, for there are many atheists, people of different religions who are far better than i am or any other christian. but i believe people who sincerely believe in christianity are those struggling to become better people, because of the example they have in christ. and i believe in that, the heart is changed, which can provide the most lasting change of all, not just external actions or resolutions that may often peter out, as well as a real reason and hope to keep trying. im sorry if all you see are hypocritical christians around you.
but yeah...i dont believe in self hatred, castigation. i believe in a changed life that strives to do good in this world and love others and God.
forgive me if i created more problems or more questions. that again, as a christian, i believe- i am human, and imperfect. that's why its not that i desire for others to believe in myself, but in christ.
i probably won't post again, but these are some sites that talk more to apologetics and say much more than i would be able to.
1. www.carm.org
2. www.equip.org
3. www.reasonablefaith.org
4. www.bethinking.org
5. www.probe.org
6. www.apologeticsindex.org
7. www.watchman.org
<3.
I think that it is possible. Difficult, yes, but not totally beyond our reach. The important thing is to just keep trying.
Think about it: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I am an introvert, love being alone and prefer that other people leave me alone. I do not enjoy getting public recognition at work. I like things quiet. If I were to treat everyone they way I want to be treated, I'd speak rarely, only privately recognize employees, and appear to virtually ignore nearly everyone around me so as not to bother them. I would be treating others the way I want to be treated.
I also have no expectations or desires to have anyone help me with my finances, my health care, etc. I prefer taking care of my own problems in my own way without help or interference from the government, a church, or anyone else. If I were to treat everyone the way I want to be treated in this area, I would stand against all social programs of any kind. I want no handouts from social programs, so treating others the way I want to be treated would be to do what I could to abolish all social programs.
I am aware, however, that not everyone is like me, nor would treating them the way I want to be treated be something everyone would appreciate.
The Golden Rule is imperfect. It is not divine revelation.
A better rule might be what is known as the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.
The Golden Rule is all about self "Surely everyone would want to be treated just like I want to be treated, right?" The Platinum Rule is all about others. "I am learning how to treat others they way they want to be treated.
Platinum Rule
I'd think a real god-man could come up with something a little less imperfect than the Golden Rule.
Irrelevant conclusion. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, specifically, lack of knowledge; it does not deal with belief, or lack thereof.
Religious "faith" is essentially a type "agnosticism", for if you knew your beliefs were true, you would not need "Faith"---and additionally, we could expect you to have some verifiable, testible/falsifiable evidence to substantiate your supposed "knowledge". To my understanding, you have no such evidence. In fact, we see an admission of the extent of what you wish to qualify as "evidence", in your very next statement....
Esther...i believe, not simply because of the Bible, but because of what i see morally, historically, experientially.[bold added]
Giving benefit of the doubt, the question that would immediately arise in my mind, is why "faith" in the first place? Are you not entering the above extra-biblical references, in an attempt to affirm your beliefs to us, and/or, yourself?
On the other hand, if we remove the benefit of doubt and challenge your "evidence", then what you "see morally" is, AGAIN, simply human beings acting in accordance with their very nature..i.e..HUMAN nature. We've established that human beings behave/act less than ethically at times. I'm sorry, but this is NOT evidence for anything "supernatural", nor is calling unethical behavior a "sin", evidence for anything. In fact, calling unethical behavior a "sin", as in the suggestion that it is something "wrong", would be totally redundant from the Christian perspective. This is because "sin" is presumably something that we are innately predisposed to in the first place; we cannot avoid it. From the Christian perspective, you can only be "forgiven" for being a "sinner"; you cannot avoid being a "sinner".
Esther...and i don't view this, couch this in terms of superiority or not...that is not what i believe christianity is about.
Yes, yes, of course!...that's not what you believe Christianity is "about". Nothing astonishing about that. The problem is, whose interpretation is "right", and whose is "wrong", and how is it determined, objectively? 'Listening.
Esther...yes, i believe it as true..
You state the obvious. The problem, is that the evidence that presumably supports what you "believe", is not obvious. Hence, "Faith"?
Esther...and then people can interpret that as my saying my beliefs are superior, but what motivates me to even write on this wall is if i believe that if there is real love, true love in God, and his message, i would desire it for all those i care about, and humanity.
Firstly, "true love" doesn't have strings attached.
Secondly, the "message", in a nutshell, is that we are to love "Jesus", accept his "free gift", or be roasted in Hell for eternity.
Esther...i can't force anyone to be a part of God's family, and i won't, but i can try to say what i believe, just as you can.
You said what you "believe", and frankly, it's severely lacking, IMO. Until you provide better evidence for your beliefs, there is no "God's family"; there is only the human race, and everything else that occurs in nature.
Esther...this is good so that lots of people can dialogue. and i see that there are a lot of presuppositions that go into that..
My 'presupposition' is that it's a good idea to believe in things that have a referent in reality. I'm biased in that regard, yes.
Esther... i don't think i am superior because i have experienced faith, nor am i deserving of the faith i have, but i am blessed.
Forgive me, but I see the above as pure double-talk. You've said nothing.
Esther...... people do desire change, but i believe that desire comes from somewhere.
Yes, it comes from the will to actually live, as opposed to merely existing. Some people are perfectly content "going through the motions".
Esther......i know the fine print, and i am trying to learn more about this God because i believe knowing him is "eternal life".
By "fine print", I take it you mean the most widely accepted source for "knowing him" in existence, that being, the Christian bible. Well, if that's the case, then you should know that no document can be its own source. Extra-biblical sources hinting at a "historical Jesus", are not evidence for a "Divine, Supernatural, Miracle-working, Creator of the Universe".
Esther...... i have struggled with existential questions- "everything is meaningless"- and that is what has led me to christianity.
Yes, we're all too familiar with this apologetic:
1) Without God, life is meaningless
2) therefore I believe in God
3) therefore God exists
4) therefore Jesus is Lord
Esther...human nature is a certain way, and i think that christianity explains why it is so.
Yes. Let's review the Christian explanation:
A flying, self-existing, disembodied ghost made two Caucasian prototypes out of dirt, put them in a garden, where unbeknownst to them, there was a talking snake who sought to get them to do what the Ghost told them not to do. The talking snake succeeded, and now all of humanity is cursed with the characteristic of imperfection.
'That about sum it up?
Esther....... these are some sites that talk more to apologetics and say much more than i would be able to.
1. www.carm.org
2. www.equip.org
3. www.reasonablefaith.org
4. www.bethinking.org
5. www.probe.org
6. www.apologeticsindex.org
7. www.watchman.org
Been there; got the T-shirt. 'Ever try reading anything critical of Christian "apologetics"????
Obviously you make sweeping generalizations about christians, placing them in the "they" category. There are various reasons, but the main is so that you may seek Truth.
It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.
No one can make you believe anything, it's a choice. Again you are making assumptions, every person has a different perception of who God is. But He remains the same, Love is eternal.
I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk,
I also believe the concept of fundementalist creationism is silly. But that doesn't discredit the creation itself. Science for me complies with God's creation, everything in the universe is an elaborate system of life.
(among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none).
See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.
It doesn't make sense does it? That is why we as humans find it morally repugnant, such a black and white judgement can't be made with us. Nobody knows whether you go to hell or heaven, it is between you and God. Don't assume that people are going to hell and you will find it's much easier to live your life. You don't know someone else's fate, simple as that.
But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex.
No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part. There are also countless stories of God's love and mercy as well.
Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition?
Exalting God above your self ego
And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it?
Because not everyone agrees on everything, just like the million-and-one factions of any other religion
If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact?
Simply believing in not acting does not do anything. In Matthew 6 Jesus speaks clearly about these people.
Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)
Conviction in your life is required. You simply can't follow God and yourself. We can't serve two masters.
Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.
Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.
Fearing God is the beginning of knowledge. It's in psalms. You fear God so that you may have no fear of anything else, whether it be death, rejection, or hopelessness. Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.
But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.
He that gives us life out of the darkness? He that loves us more than we can love ourselves? He that has shown his mercy in all our lives over and over again? If that doesn't deserve respect, I don't know what does.
I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.
Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?
Your loading your question with logical fallacies that aren't God. God is not a person, it's God. Your analogy is somewhat dry, and doesn't represent the true nature of God.
Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.
That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.
There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.
Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.
How can you expect me to respect such a person?
How can you respect such a person?
Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?
My life's conviction and path to God can't be simply fear of Him. That is just the begining of knowledge, after this, He continues to give us wisdom and instruction to live a fulfilling life that doesn't concentrate on self. Your judgement shall be held between you and the Lord, for me it does all matter at the end. Because I want to be proud of every good deed I can do and look back and see the triumphs of overcoming sin in my life.
Obviously you make sweeping generalizations about christians, placing them in the "they" category. There are various reasons, but the main is so that you may seek Truth.
It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.
No one can make you believe anything, it's a choice. Again you are making assumptions, every person has a different perception of who God is. But He remains the same, Love is eternal.
I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk,
I also believe the concept of fundementalist creationism is silly. But that doesn't discredit the creation itself. Science for me complies with God's creation, everything in the universe is an elaborate system of life.
(among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none).
See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.
It doesn't make sense does it? That is why we as humans find it morally repugnant, such a black and white judgement can't be made with us. Nobody knows whether you go to hell or heaven, it is between you and God. Don't assume that people are going to hell and you will find it's much easier to live your life. You don't know someone else's fate, simple as that.
But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex.
No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part. There are also countless stories of God's love and mercy as well.
Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition?
Exalting God above your self ego
And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it?
Because not everyone agrees on everything, just like the million-and-one factions of any other religion
If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact?
Simply believing in not acting does not do anything. In Matthew 6 Jesus speaks clearly about these people.
Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)
Conviction in your life is required. You simply can't follow God and yourself. We can't serve two masters.
Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.
Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.
Fearing God is the beginning of knowledge. It's in psalms. You fear God so that you may have no fear of anything else, whether it be death, rejection, or hopelessness. Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.
But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.
He that gives us life out of the darkness? He that loves us more than we can love ourselves? He that has shown his mercy in all our lives over and over again? If that doesn't deserve respect, I don't know what does.
I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.
Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?
Your loading your question with logical fallacies that aren't God. God is not a person, it's God. Your analogy is somewhat dry, and doesn't represent the true nature of God.
Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.
That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.
There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.
Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.
How can you expect me to respect such a person?
How can you respect such a person?
Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?
My life's conviction and path to God can't be simply fear of Him. That is just the begining of knowledge, after this, He continues to give us wisdom and instruction to live a fulfilling life that doesn't concentrate on self. Your judgement shall be held between you and the Lord, for me it does all matter at the end. Because I want to be proud of every good deed I can do and look back and see the triumphs of overcoming sin in my life.
Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.
Sorry, but the fear of "God" often does the opposite, it turns people's actions into evil deeds. Many people throughout history have committed atrocities for no other reason than the fact that they feared God and thought that what they were doing was pleasing to God. The story of Abraham intending to sacrifice his son Isaac, although fictional, shows the mentality so often diplayed in the Bible that if God tells us to do something, well, we better do it, no matter how immoral of an act it might be.
You continued:
No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part.
And ignoring the atrocities committed and/or commanded by this alleged God in the OT is stubborness on your part. When God commands ethnic cleansing, the killing of entire groups of people, including infants, and the rape of young virgin girls who were spoils of war, he shows himself to be a monster on the same level as Adolph Hitler. In fact, much worse than Hitler, since supposedly God is all-knowing and all-powerful. You can try to make all the excuses in the world for him, but God in the OT is an evil being. He doesn't get that much better in the NT, either. In Matthew 7:13-14 we read, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." So we see that few will be obtaining eternal life, and the majority will be punished in hell. Anyone who sends the majority of people in this world to hell is an evil being. Even if the NT God were all about peace, love, and happiness, that does not excuse him from his previous atrocities. When society catches a murderer who has been on the lam for years or decades, they don't just forgive him because he's done some good things since then.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan