By Gabe I have a serious question concerning the Bible's teaching on the doctrine of hell. Actually I have several serious questions concerning this teaching, but I'll focus on just one point for the sake of time. I'm sure almost all of us at some point in our lives have been to church and heard a preacher giving a sermon on the topic of hell. During my years when I was very religious, I had a favorite sermon entitled, "Hell, Fire, and Damnation." Actually it wasn't a sermon, but rather a five part sermon series. It was preached by my favorite pastor, Dr. Roy Hargrave, who is the senior pastor of Riverbend Community Church, a very large Southern Baptist church located in Ormond Beach, Florida. A friend of mine sat through one of the sermons during a Sunday morning service, and the sermon was so intense and terrifying that he caught a glance of a young college-age girl sitting in the same row literally trembling in her seat, while listening to the pastor describe in vivid detail the unimaginable horror and torment that awaited her if she did not convert.
The entire sermon series is heavily influenced by a sermon that was preached nearly 300 years ago by Jonathan Edwards titled, "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God." This sermon helped ignite the Great Awakening, due to the fact that it simply terrified people into converting. Here is just a small sample of this message:
"It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains."
Although I have never been eloquent enough to describe hell is such vivid detail, nevertheless I preached and taught this doctrine for several years. But even while I was a student in seminary, I had a very difficult question in my mind concerning this topic. My question is this: Why is the Old Testament almost totally silent on the teaching of hell? I'm sure someone will quote a verse (and I could quote a few myself) to argue that the OT does indeed support the existence of hell, but these very few verses are so few and far between that it should disturb anyone who has studied the Bible, when asking yourself why the Old Testament spend such a small amount of time discussing a topic of such vast importance.
In the entire Old Testament, there is really only one verse that could easily be interpreted as a reference to the idea of eternal punishment in hell. The verse is Daniel 12:2.
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, some to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Even if we assume this verse is speaking of eternal torment, it raises another question: Why does it only say that "MANY of those who sleep in the dust will awake?" Why does it not say, "ALL of those who sleep in the dust will awake?" Is this verse implying that only a certain portion of those who have died will experience an afterlife? Are there some who will not experience an afterlife? I think it is easy to see how someone could interpret this verse in this manner. My point in bringing this side-note up is not at all to get off track discussing the universality or limited nature of an afterlife, but rather to point out that if one chooses to use this verse to defend the claim that the Old Testament supports the idea of eternal punishment, you have uncovered another problem due to the wording of the text.
But let us get back on track. Here is the main point I want to raise. The book of Daniel is said to have been written in the 6th century BC (although many scholars say the 2nd century BC). And the first books of the Bible are said to have been written around the 14th or 15th century BC (although conservative and liberal scholars debate this as well). So here is my question: If the book of Daniel is the first book of the Old Testament that mentions the idea of eternal torment in hell, why did the Bible wait 900 years to warn its readers about something this serious? If there really is an eternal torture chamber, it seems like the Bible would be absolutely sure to include this teaching on the very first page! I would say that is some REALLY important information to be leaving out!! Could you imagine a person dying who lived during the time of Moses, which would have been hundreds of years before the book of Daniel was written, and waking up in the eternal furnace of fire and screaming, "Oh my God, why wasn't I warned about this?!!"
I have thought about this question, and while I am sure a multitude of answers could be proposed in an attempt to solve this dilemma, I can come up with two answers that are very likely to arise. For the first answer to this question, a person might respond, "Well he's God, and he can do whatever he wants, and if he doesn't want to warn them about hell, then he doesn't have to." But if someone is willing to give a response like this, then he or she should not get angry if a radical Muslim says, "Well he's Allah, and he can do whatever he wants, and if he wants to command his followers to carry out suicide bombings on innocent women and children, then he can do what he damn well pleases." For anyone who would give such a response, it would be helpful to follow the advice of a quote I once heard that said, "Don't make a statement that makes God out to be less compassionate that your average mortal human being."
The second response may possibly carry a little more validity. In the second response, a person defending the teaching of hell might say, "Well maybe the early books of the Bible do not specifically warn its readers about eternal punishment in hell, but it did warn them that God would punish them if they sinned against him." And of course there is no doubt that this is true. There are hundreds of threats in the first five books of the Bible that God would punish people for sinning against him. There were a multitude of cases where God threatened the people of Israel with death if they broke his commands. One man was stoned to death for simply picking up sticks on the Sabbath, because any form of work was forbidden on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). And the book of Deuteronomy commands parents to have their child (more like a young adult) stoned to death for being disobedient (Deut. 21:18-21). So there is no question that the Bible warns its earliest readers that they will be punished for sinning against God. But are such warnings sufficient?
I would say that these warnings are not even close to being sufficient. A general warning that God will punish them for sinning against him is not good enough. Here is an illustration to make my point: A dad tells his teenage son that if he gets caught smoking pot that he will be punished. The son tries his best to not get caught, but eventually his dad catches him in the act. So the dad takes a rope and ties up his son's hands and feet and carries him into the basement, where he has a secret torture chamber set up. The dad keeps his son locked in the basement and puts him through the most sadistic torture for the rest of his life. Every day the son pleads to his dad to let him out, but the dad replies, "Son I told you I would punish you if you smoked pot." And his son says, "But dad, I knew you said I would be punished for disobeying you, but I wasn't expecting this!" Multiply the horror of this torture by infinity and apply the same logic to the doctrine of hell, and you'll see one of the reasons why I have a serious issue with this awful teaching. Feel free to voice any of your own objections or comments, they will be greatly appreciated.
Holding a gun against someone's head, telling them they either do what told or get murdered, does not sound like much of a free will.
Yes, people should have consequences for their actions, and they do, but all in a reasonable manner. If we all obeyed the Bible laws as written, we would have punished ourselves and each other out of existence.
I was born not to die, but to live forever? In Heaven or Hell? But wait a minute, I thought Everlasting Life was only for the believers and not for the non-believers? Because you would have to "live" forever in order to be tortured. Why does that not make sense AT ALL?
After studying the worlds religons intensively for the past 6 years, I now have come to buddhism as my choice. If the Buddha was asked by a disciple if there was an eternal hell somewhere he would simply shrug his shoulders? Because it is not a religion of faith in the unknown but action of the known. What good would it really do anybody to KNOW if there is a hell when it is not helping the individual in a pregmatic, useful fashion?
Eternal Life for Sinners in Hell! That should be a sermon title. Paradox and a half. How anyone can actually believe that God is sick enough to through us onto the earth ALREADY KNOWING that we would go to hell in the end makes God EVIL. Because God does already know the future right? If he does than to create me to go to hell for eternity is a God of torture not Love.
Anyways good post and let it be said that Xtians that actually believe in stuff like Eternal Hell need counseling.....
"If we all obeyed the Bible laws as written, we would have punished ourselves and each other out of existence."
Great statement, and a rather humorous way to state it! I would have to agree with you there. I can hardly imagine a life more miserable than that of an Old Testament saint living under the Mosaic Law.
I've never given a thought on those verses myself, but your question does indeed makes sense.
Sure, I have had many on this site to point out to the fact that the OT doesn't speak of a eternal hell, but, again I say; you are a pretty smart guy.
I started out as a Baptist, at a very young age and was reminded of such a place, even up to about two years ago at the age of 49.
Anyways, I love it when someone brings up a question or answer to show just how absurd the God of the bible, quran, or any other man-made "holy"books are.
Thanks for more knowledge you and others have given me. Peace, Roger...A/A
I would simply agree with anyone who says the Bible is all crap.
And I wonder how anyone can believe in the so-called all-goodness or all-lovingness of a malevolent, egoistic, capricious, genocidal maniac, aka the Bible God.
Like them, he preached sermons he did not believe.
So, like them, his is willing to lie to suit his purposes.
That said, how do we know how much of his story is true?
We don't.
Never will.
The Game is over before it begins.
The concept of a god that punishes people for eternity, however... Sounds like utter bullcrap to me. (swings and knocks tennis ball marked 'Burden of Proof' back onto Andrew's side of the net)
I can't believe how you so flippantly dismiss the books of I Peter and II Peter. After all, the gospels record Peter as lying when he said the he did not know Jesus. How can we then trust anything he (allegedly) wrote? We can't, using your logic.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
Besides, you can stop pissing your pants over it. Most of us who were very indoctrinated could come up with a sermon of regurgitated christian cliches that would have a whole congregation weeping and amening. Get it, the whole religion thing is a show and an act created to control your mind and your life. It's not magical or spirit inspired or any such thing. The most successful preachers are showmen and versed in mass mind control techniques. Makes you wonder if you can trust anything any preacher says.
You don't know what you are even talking about in regard to Gabe's post, however I can understand why you come on this site trolling and trying to make trouble for Gabe.
The fact is Andrew that people like you don't like it anytime someone exposes christianity for the lie that it is.
You are nothing more than a complete loser Andrew. Get a life and do something productive with it.
Fundamentalist managed to change the constantly burning garbage dump into something it wasn't. As a former Episcopalian though, they don't do this- they actually, at least in the liberal branch tell you the truth about it.
Thus, Daniel is post-exilic. This is important, because the Persians, who freed the Jews from exile, believed in a future resurrection. This is likely where the Jews got the idea of a conscious afterlife, and why it does not appear in the rest of the Tanakh.
The resurrection teaching also appears in the post-exilic 2 Maccabees. Catholics know the story in chapter 7 well, although few notice that the story does not teach of hell. (This book was stuck from the Jewish canon because it was written after some magical divine cutoff date. Daniel made the cut because the idiots, then and now, couldn’t figure out that it was a historical fiction, not prophecy.)
Not that the Buybull is a reliably guide to the afterlife anyway. None of the authors are known to have died prior to writing about what death is like.
A 'demon in hell' can also be called a 'genius in the light.' Demon, or daemon, has conflicting meanings. It can mean our inner genius, divinity or genie. It is a word sharing the same root thing as 'diamond!' Some dictionaries say demons are inferior divinity or evil spirits. How can they be both? Both divine, genius and evil? Think about it. Do they not cancel one another out? Or, can we put all under one divine umbrella? What definitions have you been taught?
The horns on the devil are also used to depict great divine light emanating through the individual. Same thing was shown with Hathor, Moses, White Buffalo Woman. It is a positive symbol of higher consciousness and knowledge, not evil.
Devil comes from the Sanskrit world meaning 'deva,' which relates to the good angels of the Hindu pantheon. Were you taught that Satan means adversary or plotter? 'Adverse' meaning 'to turn towards?' After Zoroaster and the Persians conquered Hindu territory the conquerers miraculously transformed the Hindu gods into devils! So, the Hindu devas became the Persians devils.
If we look at the pattern of religious manipulation through language, the word "daemon" was changed into having a evil implication. "It was just more Christian propaganda used to brainwash the followers of the Greek and Roman religions into rejecting their old gods in favor of the newly created Christian character," as one scholar explains. This old ploy cunningly used good timing to coincide with the burning of millions of books; books which had they not been burned would have allowed people to see the truth of how they were being lied to. And the word 'evil' probably comes from the same root as the word 'apple,' which is 'upfel.' Who decided that apples were evil? The apple itself isn't evil.
Jewish beliefs are a mostly a mash-up of Egyptian and Semitic sun-god teachings of Ra/Ba'al/Jehovah, Persian Zoroastrianism (in the fight between light and dark) which the Jews picked up during their Babylonian captivity (most of the Torah/Old Testament was not written down until after the captivity), and a rather general form of pantheism in the concept of the elohim. Contrast the Book of Job, where God gives Satan/Lucifer permission to torment Job (note that most of his afflictions correspond with arsenic poisoning, a very common problem with water in that region to this day) with the current Christian teachings.
Gehenna was actually the stinking, constantly-smoldering garbage pit at the edge of Jerusalem. The concept of Hell was a part of many of the mystery cults which held sway at the turn from B.C.E. to C.E. including Mithraism (which directly influenced early Christianity) and the cult of Ishtar (the so-called "Whore of Babylon" referenced in the Book of Revelations) -- which was later co-opted by the Church as Mary-worship and the holiday of Easter. Mystery cults had common beliefs, most picked up by Christianity, including Heaven (the Realm of Light), Hell (the Realm of Darkness), Immaculate conception, transubstantiation (wine = blood, bread = body), and resurrection.
~~ Mikey
Of course, you could be right. Maybe Gabe is telling a pack of lies. How would we know? Just because something is written on a web page or in a book, doesn't mean that it has to be true, does it?
Perhaps it isn't even Gabe at all. It could be someone else just pretending to be him. After all, people have tried such tricks before, writing letters in other people's names, for example, and they've got away with it!
In fact, some people have even lied about the time that they were writing - pretending to be from the distant past to give more weight to their invented rules ('Hey!, look what I've just found in the temple!'), or so that it looks as if their 'prophecies' have come true.
Others have written things that they must have known to be false, just to make it look as though somebody has fulfilled prophecy, for example.
Some people have even had the cheek to misquote older writings with a similar reason in mind.
So, once again, be careful Andrew!, or you might start applying that healthy scepticism of yours somewhere else!
Having left evangelicalism (as a pastor and evangelist) after some 30 odd years (and some, indeed, were very odd!), I look back on the times when I preached on eternal torment, damnation and the awesome ounishment of the God of the Bible ... yes, indeed, many did find their way to the Bible's formula for its salvation.
However, if you care to undertake a careful study of the various words used for hell in the Bible and also look at the teaching from a psychological perspective you may be assisted in your searching.
Succinctly put, hell is a much favoured pursuit of soul hunters - sermons usually hit their mark - especially amongst those who are not aware of the Bible and its false base of authority --- viz: the still unproven, "The Bible, in its original languages is the inspired word of God" - we all know that the "originals" have never been found! Very much like the WMD in Iraq!
Regards
Paul
PS I will soon be publishing a book entitled "Evangelicalism - another Hallucinogenic" ... you may find it interesting. If you care to, please contact me on eurekaplato@yahoo.co.uk
No one did. They simply attacked me, as you say I am attacking you.
By your OWN ADMISSION, you preached when you did not believe what you were preaching.
And of course you had your reasons, but the FACT is you LIED.
So how are we to know how much of this is true?
We can't.
Never will.
That is why I point out that you are in the same tradition as Dan Barker and John Loftus. Heck, now you will proabably make a gig out of preaching AGAINST Christ, but either way, like Barker, Loftus, and others you are still preaching.
But in your case it doesn't matter, because fortunately you exposed YOURSELF and left the church.
There are too many like you who either quit believing or never did and simply stay in the church for a livelihood.
Some of the preachers who make so much and live so well are those types, as I KNOW.
And then people like the posters here use those types, when they are exposed, to further shame the church.
But I am thankful you left. Had you stayed you could have caused much more damage.
Your rage is showing. Regardless, don't you think it a reasonable assumption that every preacher has moments of doubt, and that every preacher has preached a sermon or two while wrestling with those doubts?
By your logic, every preacher is in the same boat, because if a preacher stands up and preaches even one time while wrestling with doubt, then that makes that preacher a liar.
Again, that's by your logic.
And, to sail along on your logic track, since every preacher wonders at times if he or she is in reality preaching a made-up version of a religion that is based on magical myths and legends that have never been and cannot ever be verified, that reasonably puts pretty much puts all preachers in the same boat.
Andrew. If your god is real, John and Dan and Gabe aren't a threat to IT or the "redeemed." Perhaps your raging accusations of "Liar, liar, pants on fire" is just the sound of your cognitive dissonance and doubts rising to the fore. If so, many of us have known exactly what you are going through.
If this Christian god is so omnipotent, it makes one wonder why faith in IT is so easy to destroy.
Since engaging a troll is a waste of time, goodbye.
"Some of the preachers who make so much and live so well are those types, as I KNOW."
"And then people like the posters here use those types, when they are exposed, to further shame the church."
Andrew, yes I could rant about the lies and greed of the "health, wealth, and prosperity" preachers. But our primary objections are not aimed at those who distort the teaching of Christianity for their own personal gain. Our objections are aimed even at the so-called honest, respected teachers of "sound doctrine," such as R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur, Billy Graham, etc. We don't have look toward the fringes of Christianity in order to find absurdity within your religion, because the teaching of Christianity in itself is completely absurd.
I doubt that immaculate conception was part of these mystery religions, as the concept of original sin hadn’t yet been invented by the Catholic Church (although the roots of the idea are in Paul’s writings). Perhaps you’re confusing the immaculate conception of Mary with the parthenogenetic conception of Jesus? As you know, everyone who was anyone in those days was born of a virgin.
I largely agree, but I would phrase that a bit differently, as most of the older myths did not focus on virginity; in fact, some of the gods and demigods were purportedly born of nonvirgins. I always say that anyone who was anyone in those days was born of divine-human unions; that's the important similarity anyway.
Apologists love to dwell on insignificant differences, as though that makes Jesus unique. Virginity was simply a way to "prove" that insemination was miraculous--in itself it meant nothing.
They attempt to sow seeds of doubt among those place their faith in Someone greater than themselves, who, if humble, are much more vulnerable to doubt than proud atheists. They claim that Christianity and every other religion is absurd (utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false) but what Atheists believe, which is that the natural universe has always existed and our existence is absurd (the condition or state in which humans exist in a meaningless, irrational universe wherein people's lives have no purpose or meaning). When one of their heroes, such as Antony Flew, objectively follows the evidence and ends up believing there is a Causer, they don’t attack what he says, they attack the person (“He once had a great mind but now he’s old and senile.”, even though he’s still sharp as a tack). Understanding how great (impossible) the leap from non-life to life is drove atheists such as Flew to the God conclusion. Even the simplest life form’s genetic code is extremely complex. How long would it take to accidentally generate a complex and functioning machine code from a randomly-generated series of 0’s and 1’s? How about never? No its not! Not if we believe there are an infinite number of universes (even though there’s no evidence for that, just a need for it to validate our inane presuppositions so we can say “What must have happened is . . . “) and we just got lucky!
Gabe’s “HELL IS FREEZING OVER” post and those posting comments about life and death miss the main point of the scriptures which is the restoration of relationship with the Creator. There is also a need for a better understanding of terms. As many of you “ex-Christians” should know, life is defined as being in relationship with God and death is defined as separation from God, not cessation of existence. Ultimate Death is eternal separation from the Life Giver and Ultimate Life is eternal relationship with the Life Giver. Unlike us very dependent beings, God is autonomous and, as we followers believe, a personal Being, relationships to those created in His image being the most important dynamic in His Book. I don’t profess to comprehend the complexities of all that is, including the conundrum of free will, but at some point we have to come to place of belief in something and have some basis for that belief or we’ll go insane. Do I have doubts? Sure but if you don’t have any doubts, I have to question your sanity. Some of my unanswered questions: How could Lucifer, a perfect being, become proud and rebel? Once Lucifer fell, why was he allowed to tempt Adam and Eve? Apparently the angels and humans have free will but I’m not completely satisfied with that general answer. My most disturbing thoughts: Why has God set up a situation where finite beings He cares about live a relatively short time, have very limited understanding, and have many other non-godly influences to distract them and yet, in the midst of all that, they have to determine their eternal fates? Why can’t God just obliterate those of us who reject Him instead of tormenting us for eternity? I know it takes humility to accept the Truth, to accept God, to really grow. Maybe that’s all I need to know and I should take a cue from Antony Flew.
By the way, I know what you guys don’t believe in but what the “hell” do you guy believe in? I love that G.K. Chesterston quote: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything." Anything beyond yourselves? Gaia, perhaps? Everyone has a belief system, organized religion aside. What’s your belief system? What would give your life meaning once you convinced everyone that Christianity is a bunch of hooey? Have any of you read Dinesh D'Souza's book "What So Great About Christianity"?
The ultimate "gun" against our heads is whether or not we're willing to accept the Truth, no matter what it is. And that depends on whether or not we're going to remain in our pride or humble ourselves for our own good and the good of other.
Thank you for the opportunity to address all of you in your blog.
Could you clarify something for me. Are you currently a believer, currently leaving the faith or currently considering joining the faith. I wasn't quite sure from your post.
I'm not exactly sure why I have to "believe in something". I have no real inclination to have a belief system. Possibly the closest to christian belief I hold is the golden rule- which is in no way unique to christianity- so it is a human code of conduct more than anything. That would be to treat others as I want to be treated. I don't think not having a belief system in a diety will drive me insane. I was going insane in the christian religion- not literally insane, but I was depressed, confused by the conflicting messages, distressed and developing a worsening anxiety condition tied to the "fear" messages in christianity- hell, god's wrath, loss of salvation, tribulation, persecution. I'm much saner out of the religion and my husband, who still believes, says I am a nicer person.
Yes, one of the big reasons I left was the finite life of varying lenghts and limited understanding being the medium for making an eternal decision with eternal consequences. Also the rebel angel falls to the exact place in the universe that god is starting a new creation and god instead of snuffing satan out on the spot waits 6 or so thousand years (and billions upon billions of damned souls later) before rectifying the situation. Talk about letting a small problem get out of control. If god has the power to get rid of satan, which the bible says he does, then he could have done it before humanity was corrupted. It's like someone seeing a small stove fire and letting it go until the house is burned down, then trying to solve the problem instead of simply putting out the fire before it got powerful. Unless god allowed satan to fall so that he could corrupt humanity and they could play this "who got the soul" chess game with humanity.
See how irrational it all sounds. But humans often do irrational things. People overeat when they know they will gain weight. People smoke when they know it causes lung cancer. People gamble when they know they are more likely to lose then win. People join religions when they know it doesn't sound plausible to fit in and have pat answers to sooth the larger questions.
Could you clarify something for me. Are you currently a believer, currently leaving the faith or currently considering joining the faith. I wasn't quite sure from your post.
I'm not exactly sure why I have to "believe in something". I have no real inclination to have a belief system. Possibly the closest to christian belief I hold is the golden rule- which is in no way unique to christianity- so it is a human code of conduct more than anything. That would be to treat others as I want to be treated. I don't think not having a belief system in a diety will drive me insane. I was going insane in the christian religion- not literally insane, but I was depressed, confused by the conflicting messages, distressed and developing a worsening anxiety condition tied to the "fear" messages in christianity- hell, god's wrath, loss of salvation, tribulation, persecution. I'm much saner out of the religion and my husband, who still believes, says I am a nicer person.
Yes, one of the big reasons I left was the finite life of varying lenghts and limited understanding being the medium for making an eternal decision with eternal consequences. Also the rebel angel falls to the exact place in the universe that god is starting a new creation and god instead of snuffing satan out on the spot waits 6 or so thousand years (and billions upon billions of damned souls later) before rectifying the situation. Talk about letting a small problem get out of control. If god has the power to get rid of satan, which the bible says he does, then he could have done it before humanity was corrupted. It's like someone seeing a small stove fire and letting it go until the house is burned down, then trying to solve the problem instead of simply putting out the fire before it got powerful. Unless god allowed satan to fall so that he could corrupt humanity and they could play this "who got the soul" chess game with humanity.
See how irrational it all sounds. But humans often do irrational things. People overeat when they know they will gain weight. People smoke when they know it causes lung cancer. People gamble when they know they are more likely to lose then win. People join religions when they know it doesn't sound plausible to fit in and have pat answers to sooth the larger questions.
You have fallen right in line with this new modern idea of hell, which reduces it to what you and many others call "seperation from God, the ultimate lifegiver." You speak as if hell is simply some type of void that unbelievers will remain in for all eternity. You speak as if God has nothing at all to do with hell, as if he may even be sad that human beings are in such a place. Jonathan Edwards would have rebuked you sharply, for Romans 9 plainly states that God has predestined many for hell, so that he can demonstrate the power of his wrath. According to the bible an unbeliever is not seperated from God in hell. No, the bible is clear that God is very much present in his wrath.
The concept of hell in Christianity today is becoming something far different than the concept of hell in the New Testament. What you are speaking of is simply mainstream Christianity re-packaging hell into something that is more marketable to the masses. Because more and more pastors are starting to realize that the traditional hard-line view of hell will be immediately shrugged off as something complete absurd. And that means fewer tithes, and churches don't want that!
You feel that life without religion is "meaningless."
That's too bad for you. I wonder what possible "meaning" you find in cow-towing to mythology. Surely you could find something more meaningful for your life than delusional subservience to mythology. What possible meaning can be derived from fantasy?
Hell is silly because it makes what you believe more important than what you do - even though it purports to do the opposite. It's faith, so it gets to have it both ways. Then God never speaks for Himself - he has spin doctors that are scared of Hell. And they are experts!!!
I can't attack Andrew as a person, even though that is what he seems to do - attack people. I don't know him, but I don't want to go to Heaven if he's going to be there.
What does that tell you about those that follow Jesus? Not all of them. Some are wonderful - but you see, if it's all based on what you "confess," then "Grace" is BS.
Who we being saved from? God? He created Hell for the Devil, but He doesn't make him stay there. He's got serious issues...
No, I believe separation from God is a horrible thing and yes, according to the scriptures, those who reject God will end up in the Lake of Fire. Other than the Buddhist, what do the rest of you believe? Everyone, down deep, believes something and bases their lives on it. We're defined not just by what we don't trust in but also by what we do trust in.
The “fools” (as you imply that we call them) that follow the non-existent Someone most certainly do exist. They are relevant to non-believers, even though their non-existent Someone isn’t.
Chris wrote: “Maybe they’re more altruistic than I give them credit for and they give away most of their earnings to further the cause of Atheism/Antitheism, the cause with the goal to stifle the influence (good or bad) of those who believe there is a Causer on our culture.”
You believers sure can get creative with your straw men when you insist on stating things that you do not know. Hitchins and Harris argue that religion should be abandoned, but they certainly aren’t attempting to stifle anyone. Also, it is ridiculous to claim that they’re indifferent to good versus bad influences, as the reason they argue against religion is that they believe that religion is a bad influence.
Chris wrote: “To what ultimate end? Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow your meaningless existence ends?”
If you need eternity in order to give meaning to your life, please don’t attribute your lack of imagination to the rest of us. I am alive now, and i find that plenty meaningful.
Chris wrote: “Or live nobly even though cutting short your possibly fun but definitely meaningless life for the sake of other meaningless people or meaningless nature (be a Greenie) is ultimately meaningless because the impersonal universe doesn’t give a rip (one giant asteroid or solar flare could destroy all human life at any given moment; as grateful as we may be for our heroes, they’re ultimately fools)? The search for meaning is futile in an impersonal universe, so just grow up you believers in fairy tales? Existentialism, baby, that’s the way to go. Choose wisely and create order, if that’s even possible in the culture of relativism.”
Man, this is rich!
Chris wrote: “They attempt to sow seeds of doubt among those place their faith in Someone greater than themselves, who, if humble, are much more vulnerable to doubt than proud atheists.”
It is doubt that turned us into atheists in the first place. Who is more humble, those who stubbornly cling to blind faith in the face of nagging questions, and refuse to consider any evidence that they may be wrong; or those who admit to themselves, through threats from well-meaning Christians of eternal torture, a life devoid of meaning, or even social abandonment, that they are no longer capable of believing what they've been taught?
Chris wrote: “They claim that Christianity and every other religion is absurd (utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false) but what Atheists believe, which is that the natural universe has always existed and our existence is absurd (the condition or state in which humans exist in a meaningless, irrational universe wherein people's lives have no purpose or meaning).”
Who said that our existence is absurd and that the universe is irrational? Did you hear that from an atheist, or did a Christian tell you that atheists say that?
Chris wrote: “When one of their heroes, such as Antony Flew, objectively follows the evidence and ends up believing there is a Causer, they don’t attack what he says, they attack the person (‘He once had a great mind but now he’s old and senile.’, even though he’s still sharp as a tack). Understanding how great (impossible) the leap from non-life to life is drove atheists such as Flew to the God conclusion.”
Mr. Flew is a non-issue for two reasons. First, the arguments for design that led Mr. Flew to Deism have long been debunked. Second, atheism stands on its own, not by what some “hero” says. So Anthony Flew believes in a god. So what? He is not my pope. My mom believes in a god, too.
Chris wrote: “Even the simplest life form’s genetic code is extremely complex. How long would it take to accidentally generate a complex and functioning machine code from a randomly-generated series of 0’s and 1’s? How about never? No its not! Not if we believe there are an infinite number of universes (even though there’s no evidence for that, just a need for it to validate our inane presuppositions so we can say ‘What must have happened is . . . ‘) and we just got lucky!”
1. Learn about evolution (and abiogenesis) from biologists, not from apologists.
2. Lose the ex post facto reasoning.
Chris wrote: “Gabe’s ‘HELL IS FREEZING OVER’ post and those posting comments about life and death miss the main point of the scriptures which is the restoration of relationship with the Creator.”
What creator?
Chris wrote: “There is also a need for a better understanding of terms. As many of you ‘ex-Christians’ should know, life is defined as being in relationship with God and death is defined as separation from God, not cessation of existence. Ultimate Death is eternal separation from the Life Giver and Ultimate Life is eternal relationship with the Life Giver.”
Making up your own definitions of words doesn’t change anything outside your head. It certainly won’t sway people who don’t already agree with you.
Chris wrote: “Unlike us very dependent beings, God is autonomous and, as we followers believe, a personal Being, relationships to those created in His image being the most important dynamic in His Book.”
3. Look up “existential fallacy.”
Chris wrote: “I don’t profess to comprehend the complexities of all that is, including the conundrum of free will, but at some point we have to come to place of belief in something and have some basis for that belief or we’ll go insane.”
Speak for yourself.
Chris wrote: “I know it takes humility to accept the Truth, to accept God, to really grow. Maybe that’s all I need to know and I should take a cue from Antony Flew.”
4. Look up “begging the question.” You are assuming that God is the truth. We searched for the truth, and became honestly convinced that Christianity is a bunch of hooey.
“Here I stand. I can do no other.” —Martin Luther
Chris wrote: “By the way, I know what you guys don’t believe in but what the ‘hell’ do you guy believe in? I love that G.K. Chesterston quote: 'When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything.'”
5. Non sequitur, and presumptuous as well.
Chris wrote: “Anything beyond yourselves?”
Of course. We’re not solipsists, y’ know.
Chris wrote: “Gaia, perhaps? Everyone has a belief system, organized religion aside. What’s your belief system?”
Each of us is different. You’ll get a different answer from every ex-Christian. My world view features philosophical materialism and philosophical naturalism. My ethical system is secular humanism.
Chris wrote: “What would give your life meaning once you convinced everyone that Christianity is a bunch of hooey?”
My life already has meaning, and i don’t mean your presumption that we get meaning from deconverting people.
Chris wrote: “Have any of you read Dinesh D'Souza's book 'What So Great About Christianity'?”
No, but i’ve read some of his essays. I found them presumptuous, libelous, and highly insulting. So you’ll forgive me if i don’t inflict an entire book of his on myself.
Chris wrote: “Thank you for the opportunity to address all of you in your blog.”
You’re welcome.
I have beliefs about a lot of things; I believe caffeine is bad for me, I believe watching too much T.V. makes me lazy, etc. But I don't feel the need to grab hold of a thought and "believe" it, I can ponder it, wonder about it, dream about it, get ideas about it, and fantasize about it. That includes all things spiritual.
Christians are so obssessed with constantly reaffirming their beliefs that they think the rest of us are just as obssessed with our "beliefs." For instance, I believe in the possibility of some kind of afterlife, but I don't walk around all day telling myself "I believe in life after death, I believe in life after death."
Christians have to constantly remind themselves of their beliefs, and the rest of us file ours away in our brains and move on.
"As many of you “ex-Christians” should know, life is defined as being in relationship with God."
Sorry Chris, however I would much rather be in a relationship with a woman.
Being in a relationship with an invisible make believe man never really did anything for me personally.
Stop insulting the intelligence of others on here with your 2,000 year old fable Chris.
Care to support that statement with a Bible verse or two?
But you already answered for us remember?
CIA:"...but what Atheists believe, which is that the natural universe has always existed and our existence is absurd (the condition or state in which humans exist in a meaningless, irrational universe wherein people's lives have no purpose or meaning)."
Must be nice, already having the answers for questions about someone else's thoughts before you even ask them.
Here's an honest question for you:
Do you know the difference between deism and theism?
The reason I ask is to make sure you realize that just because someone may have a belief in a creator doesn't make that creator the biblegod by default.
I believe that most of the people in here get the idea of God totally wrong. The issue is not about heaven or hell but the issue is rather about the character of God. And God would like us to trust HIM. I mean ask yourself why are there so many people suffering from depression, anxiety and the like today? And how would you like to change that?
And here comes my answer: Atheists do not have a spiritual power to heal people- neither physically nor emotionally. What- as an atheist do you say to a person suffering from depression? "go to see a psychiatrist?" I believe it would be nicer to have someone telling the person that there is someone out there in heaven who loves her:Jesus. Well- the question then is WHY do people "drop out" of Christianity?
Is it because of God/Christ or rather because of a lot of sick-minded, zealothic Christian fundamentalists who are trying to TELL them WHAT God expects from them? I am deeply convinced that it is never God (who IS nothing but love) but rather strict, zealothic and other kind of maniac-Christians that turn people away from Christ. Any rational thinker would be turned off hearing a pastor speaking about hellfire- or moral values such as living sexually pure until one´ s marriage. That is not the point about God. God is good- and God who has revealed himself through Jesus never wanted his people to torment one another by telling one another HOW to live a good life (doing good deeds, living sexually abstinent etc. etc.). It is always fundamentalist Christians who try to impose THEIR values on others who finally make people leave churches forever.
By the way- the rest is just a cultural phenomenom: In a lot of countries around the globe (especially Europe/Germany) Christians who still keep up their beliefs have a very relaxed attitude to moral values. There are very tolerant people in German churches tolerating homosexuals and heterosexuals alike for instance.
Any religion/cult is endangered to produce fundamentalisms. But that is not what Christ wanted us to be like.
Hey Anonymous Christian person come to convert us to your special interpretation of chrisitanity.
I believe that most of the people in here get the idea of God totally wrong. The issue is not about heaven or hell but the issue is rather about the character of God.
The heaven and hell paradigm alludes to the character of god. You would like us consider someone loving while ignoring the fact that according your chrisitan dogma he sends billions to hell for eternity? That's like saying "Hitler is love, the issue is his character not what he did to the Jewish people." Doesn't work, though I think Will Smith recently said something to that effect, so maybe you are on to something (sarcasm)
I mean ask yourself why are there so many people suffering from depression, anxiety and the like today? And how would you like to change that?
I actually think the depression has to do with the fact that people are disconnected from community. I think some of it has to do with us not living in tribal groups anymore, some of it has to do with being a mobile society and not being as close with family ties, and also in a mobile society people are not as known and involved in their neighborhood and community. In essence, I think some of the issue has to do with modern society creating a human relational disconnect. Study sociology, anthropology and psychology.
And here comes my answer: Atheists do not have a spiritual power to heal people- neither physically nor emotionally.
Um, neither do Christians. They just pretend they do and pretending is lots of fun when it is a headache or a minor emotional issue, because the placebo effect works pretty well. Try having a real problem like paraplagia, terminal illness or serious mental illness like schizophrenia. Then when the serious issue isn't healed, the person becomes more depressed because in order to keep on believing in their fantasy, the people around the "hurting" person will blame the failure to recieve healing on the already hurting person as hidden sin or whatever. It is nasty. If you want a clear view on it, read my testimony under Madame M called Anxiety to Self Esteem either on the testimony forum or posted here under testimonies in Jan or Feb of '07.
What- as an atheist do you say to a person suffering from depression? "go to see a psychiatrist?" I believe it would be nicer to have someone telling the person that there is someone out there in heaven who loves her:Jesus. Well- the question then is WHY do people "drop out" of Christianity?
So, for lack of better answer, you tell people a fairy tale. I'll tell you when the real depression starts, when the person falls into real need and this invisible Jesus never shows up to help them. Then what do you tell that more severely depressed person? Why do people drop out of Christianity- because as I mentioned above, they realize it is all bullshit when the sky man doesn't deliver.
Is it because of God/Christ or rather because of a lot of sick-minded, zealothic Christian fundamentalists who are trying to TELL them WHAT God expects from them?
Let me guess, its the old christian mind trick. You build a strawman out of other denominations of christianty in order to try to prove your own. I don't care if you a raging fundy or lovey dovey jesus freak- IT DOESN'T MAKE THE STORY ANY MORE TRUE OR CHANGE ANYTHING WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE. I think the whole of the OT law pretty much sums up what god is all about. Read the old testament and then the verse about god not changing. OT if full of carnage.
I am deeply convinced that it is never God (who IS nothing but love)
Prove god is nothing but love. Back it up with actions on his part. Saying you are loving is one thing, but love has to be an action in order for it to be proven. In my mind, biblegod is like an abusive husband who claims he beats his wife in order to show her love.
turned off hearing a pastor speaking about hellfire- or moral values such as living sexually pure until one´ s marriage.
What makes you think all atheists need to be roped into religion with the promise of free sex. Do you think all athiests are automatically interested in nothing but sex and drugs or something? That is what most christians think, which is why most of them do not assume I am an atheist based on my life. Besides, once again read the law in the OT to see what biblegod has to say about stuff.
I'm pretty sure a fundy could come on here and claim that you are not living a godly life and therefore are not saved. See how it all works. I don't care if your version of christianity is an orgy and the others guys version is women wearing puritan dress and the men with whips in their hands. Prove that biblegod exists and then show me why your version completely fits 100% with the bible, with all portions of the bible fitting together smoothly to prove your worldview and then I will consider belief.
Yes.
What- as a Christian do you say to someone suffering from polio, or influenza, or a broken rib? Go see a doctor?
Well, duh! Yes! Unless you're an idiot.
Anony wrote, "And God would like us to trust HIM. "
HE would like (??) us to trust HIM? He would like it? You mean HE isn't really in control of things around here? HE is impotently wringing his hands, mumbling to himself how "I've done everything to woo them, and they just keep resisting. Oh if only I could think of a way to get through to them"?
Listen, anony-nony. Jesus taught more on hell than even Paul. Perhaps you should re-read your holy book a bit. Your religion sounds nice and fluffy, but it's not Christianity.
By the way, I know what you guys don’t believe in but what the “hell” do you guy believe in?
Speaking for myself, this pretty much sums it up:
Affirmations of Humanism
I'd be interested to hear your objections to these principles.
<<"Well- the question then is WHY do people "drop out" of Christianity?
Is it because of God/Christ or rather because of a lot of sick-minded, zealothic Christian fundamentalists who are trying to TELL them WHAT God expects from them? I am deeply convinced that it is never God (who IS nothing but love) but rather strict, zealothic and other kind of maniac-Christians that turn people away from Christ.">>
MY REPLY: You are "deeply convinced" about that which you seem to have no experience. The God of the Bible, upon some reflection, vanishes into thin air... actually, to vanish, you must first exist and have shown yourself... there is NO evidence, only suspect (VERY suspect) "testimony" that God has revealed himself - that's where the "faith" and "belief" come in...
Those "strict, zealothic" Christians that yopu mention are that way out of necessity - they have to supply ALL the energy and the zeal, because God will die otherwise!!! ... The fictitious God NEEDS human beings to believe in (and fear) HIm, otherwise He will cease to exist. Scripture holds that s/he that comes to Him must believe that He is... this affirmation is very problematic, and doesn't hold true for any other proposition that I can think of, because all we have is other people and a Book...and a bunch of second-rate songs with the message "I BELIEVE."
Hell evolved over time and thus in the Bible - [IMHO] out of this fear of the great unknown, and of the perceived (and real) injustices of the world. It was a way to deal with them. The juxtaposition of Love and Mercy with Belief, and some sort of fruit that should follow - only made it more obvious that none of it really worked - paradoxical to say the least.
Theology was born of this mayhem, to make belief work. Only problem: the Book lent itself to myriad interpretations, because it was a compilation - sometimes offering multiple versions of the same story - why? Well, so it could be infallible and the rule of faith. That makes sense, doesn't it?
An aside: I have convinced my oldest daughter that evolution is proven and that Scripture creation stories are a metaphor, if they are anything. My wife is acceting that fact and sends our daughters to me for these life altering questions, as long as I don't go agnostic on them. These are good signs, for now - my daughter (at the age of 12) is a theistic evolutionist in the making. I hope that 2008 sees the "theist" tag removed from any reference made to my family. Will we continue to Homeschool? Yep - because we are weird like that and if I'm successful, then we can say the old version of the pledge and forego the moment of silence.
Right now - we are heavy on Bible "history" and prayer. We are also on the AIG mailing list. But we have skipped a tithe or two and my wife is with me on voting democrat this year. Liberal Christianity is the baby step to agnosticism and beyond. Wish me luck and thank you all for this wonderful site...
A shout out to Nvrgngbck - It was her piece back in late spring, about the idea of Hell and standing up to Bbilegod, that I really believe was the final straw for the ole camel...
Liniasmax
"And God would like us to trust HIM. I mean ask yourself why are there so many people suffering from depression, anxiety and the like today? And how would you like to change that?"
And you think God is going to do something to change that, and make it better?
Hate to break it to you, but God doesn't do a damn thing to take away depression. I have suffered from depression for years, and have also worked with many other people who suffer from various mental illnesses, and if anything a belief in Jesus/God makes people who have mental health issues even worse. I personally blame your "God" for why I have depression which has damn nearly crippled my ability to perform in life.
Don't worry though dear anonymous. I am learning how to deal with depression in a more effective way these days. Fortunately there are good secular therapists out there who know how to offer practical solutions to today's problems.
Anonymous Said:
"What- as an atheist do you say to a person suffering from depression? "go to see a psychiatrist?" I believe it would be nicer to have someone telling the person that there is someone out there in heaven who loves her:Jesus."
Your statement is very insulting to one's intelligence. It is "Over-simplified" and it presents no practical solutions to anyone's problems. All you are doing is providing false hopes to someone by telling them that an imaginary friend loves them, which never did anything for me personally.
Basically you are trying to give that person a worthless crutch instead of helping that same person live a productive life. I have bigger ambitions in life, than going around beating on a bible all of the time.
Being told Jesus loves me never did anything to help me live a more productive life. Personal success and achievement along with seeing my dreams come true is what helps me with my depression. Jesus has never done anything that has helped me with my depression. My own success is what helps me. Not a make believe spiritual crutch.
It is unbelievable that christians like you think people like myself are actually dumb enough to believe that being simply told "Jesus loves you" can actually cure depression or help it. You think people are that stupid? How insulting.
Being told that "Jesus" loves you does not make anyone's depression any better. It only gives them false hopes about life.
I have struggled with depression for years, and have been told that "Jesus loves me" many times, and guess what? I never felt any better. So it looks like your little "Over simplified" statement does not work.
Anonymous Said:
"And here comes my answer: Atheists do not have a spiritual power to heal people- neither physically nor emotionally."
Funny you would say that, because I sure have gotten a lot further in dealing with my depression on a more successful level than I ever did with having faith in Jesus.
You "anonymous" have no idea what you are even talking about. You live in a fantasy world. People like you, have no practical solutions to today's problems. You contribute nothing. Instead you only offer over simplified answers that are meaningless.
It seems another christian who thinks they have the answers has decided to come onto our site with their, "I'm different from the way other christians are" attitude.
Your comments "Anonymous" are no different from any other christian moron's comments that have been left here on this site in the past. It's all the same old recycled crap that all of you christians use.
Your "Jesus" is the answer comments are nothing more than a bunch meaningless garbage that does not produce any fruitful results period.
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
I guess I should have qualified my question about what you believed in. I meant "What absolutes do you base your life on?" I believe that without absolutes, we inevitably go toward nihilism. Believing is like breathing; we all do it, naturally, and it has to be something we consider a firm foundation. The question is, and it's one I pose to myself, "What do I honestly believe in?" I can profess many things but what really counts is what I truly believe. In that regard, I actually appreciate the honesty of the people at this blog, even if it comes with hostility and bitterness.
I've wrestled with the Christian question all my life, having been in many different churches, denominations, and parachurch organizations and having been exposed to many hypocrites and contradictory teachings. Ultimately for me, I had to see for myself the Truth behind the lies and misinterpretations and as pathetic as it sounds say, like Peter, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life." I've seen real life change in people, including my father who was an alcoholic and lost the thirst immediately but unfortunately got right back into self-protection when the pastor of legalistic, money-grubbing church lied big time about God giving him a deadline date to raise the money for a building project because he kept pushing passed that date. My father and mother had given sacrificially and they and others were burned. Something similar happened to the parents of my friend at work, only much worse (guess the legalistic pressure was greater in that denomination). I had a girlfriend in college that had been raped twice in two different states, two years apart. She finally got up the courage to go to a pastor of a large church for counseling and after hearing her story, he asked her what she was doing wrong. Turned out he was into porn and ran off with the church secretary but not until after he had further damaged my girlfriend to the point that she was suicidal and self-abusive (would put nail polish remover on her forearms and light it with a match and at some point slashed her wrists). The pastor of church I was going to said that child molesters ought to be strung up by their thumbs and he was convicted of doing the same thing (I didn't find out till much later that he was performing oral sex on those little kids). What someone remarked is very telling (my version b/c I can't remember the exact quote): "Christianity would be great if it weren't for all the Christians." Pharisees and hypocrites are the kind of people that Jesus got along with the least and they were a blight on the early church as well (the earliest epistle was in re legalism infiltrating the church - Galatians). Pharisees are in charge of most churches and the true Gospel, the only Gospel has been lost. Even my wife questioned why I held on so long despite what I've seen and experienced. It came down to this: I believe in Christ, not Christians. I believe He is at work despite us poor conduits of His Gospel.
I also agree with the person who posted that depression is caused by a lack of community because that's what is experienced by those in so-called church "bodies." My wife and I are finally involved with some honest people with whom we fellowship but unfortunately, our situation is exceptional, not the norm. In a sense, you have a fellowship (many of you burned by Christians) in your blog based on honesty, so again, I appreciate that. Starting Jan. 7th, we're changing the format of my Monday night group (we've met for three years) and the first hour we'll be covering practical topics such as investing (going through the book "Rule No.1" and playing Kiyosaki's game), cutting wasteful spending, how to fix things we own, coordinate helping each other and others with projects, and much more. The second hour we're going to share our personal struggles and pray for our families and others with their pictures and names in front of us to bring it home more.
No one has proved abiogenesis is even possible other than the straw man argument that we're here, so it must have happened. "We were lucky." (Dawkings) was not good enough for Antony Flew but apparently that's good enough for others. You can call me ignorant, uninformed, unscientific or whatever but don't lie to me and yourselves and say evolution has been proven when you can't even get past abiogenesis. Be honest here, please. Don't tell me it's so complicated, you wouldn't understand. Give me some web sites, some books, whatever to show me why you believe abiogenesis can and did occur other than the "We're here" argument.
By the way, I disagree with Mr. Anonymous. I believe God is a lot more than love and that includes just, which leads me to say that if there's any one doctrine I'm uncomfortable with, it's eternal damnation/suffering of humans. But because I can't fully reconcile everything in my faith doesn't mean I should throw it completely out nor ignore the elephants in the room. As someone said, "If you could understand God, He wouldn't be God." I, like the rest of you, have only a little light and I wish the truth (the big picture) was easier to see but it is what it is, whatever it is.
Happy New Year!
Something about your last writing strikes me as being on the up and up, not just here to convert people. Sometimes christians are drawn here, because in spite of the fact that we shred their belief system, there is something honest about a place where people can ask the questions that would be considered bad or blasphemous in christian circles.
Alot of the stuff you discussed happening in church is similar to stuff many of us have witnessed. I am sorry about your girlfriend. She really should have found a place of safety to discuss what had happened to her and a safe place to heal. I recall one pastor of mine from years ago,who preached the pro-life agenda, telling his good buddy who had gotten his girlfriend pregnant to go ahead and get her an abortion. I think his exact words were, "Don't let a girl like that ruin your life." Unfortunately this girl overheard the pastor and being a new christian was destroyed inside, aborted the baby and left the fold. I have seen way way more than this one example.
When I was still a christian but questioning why things were so screwed up, a friend put it this way. She said that it is like christianity is the polluted cesspool that the believers are swimming in and we are saying "come on in world the water is fine."
This is my problem with all that. The Bible says that the spirit indwells the believers and this is supposed to give people the power to change. There should be a marked difference between the church and the "world". For a long long time I made excuses for it as you do. After awhile I had to admit it was like the story The Emperor's New Clothes, where everyone is acting like they can see beautiful clothes on the king and finally a child says, "but the king is naked". In spite of everyone decieving themselves on what their eyes were telling them, the fact of the matter is, there never were any clothes on that king. He had been cheated. That is how I see the church, I saw what I wanted or needed to see to fit in with what I wanted or needed to believe, but eventually I had to be like that child is speak the truth of what I was actually observing.
Thank you. I was pressured by my parents and others to evangelize others but I was always uncomfortable with doing that. Telling others that they could have a personal relationship with God when I wasn't experiencing one on any conscious level was hypocritical. On top of that, being in a state of misery - worried about being rejected by my parents and other Xians, I'm supposed to go around saying "Hey, don't you want to be miserable like me?" Peer pressure is powerful and I know it's one of the reasons many leave Xianity or the unreasonable facsimile thereof. Honesty is where it's at and Jesus exposed the lack of it in Pharisees - - - "You burden others with burdens you yourselves cannot bear." Hypocrites were there in Jesus' day and they're here today in the modern-day church; pick your denomination. Jesus said His Father was seeking those who would worship Him in spirit and in truth. Doesn't sound like there are very many of them in the American church. My wife and I have great admiration for those true followers in countries where they're persecuted. They don't have the luxury of believing in a bullshit religion; everything on this earth they hold dear is on the line.
Again, thank you for your acknowledgment.