August Berkshire, the public relations representative for
Minnesota Atheists and Vice-President of
Atheist Alliance International, has put together a simple, concise list of
21 Unconvincing Arguments for God (PDF).
Here's his list:
(1) Holy Books - Just because something is written down does not make it true. This goes for the Bible, the Qu’ran, and any other holy book. It is circular reasoning to try to prove the god of a holy book exists by using the holy book itself as “evidence.”
People who believe the holy book of one religion usually disbelieve the holy books of other religions.
(2) “Revelations” - All religions claim to be revealed, usually through people called “prophets.” But a revelation is a personal experience. Even if the revelations really did come from a god, there is no way we could prove it. As Thomas Paine said, it is a revelation only to the first person, after that it is hearsay. People of one religion usually disbelieve the revelations of other religions.
(3) Personal Testimony / Feelings - This is when you are personally having the revelation or feeling that a god exists. Though you may be sincere, and even if a god really does exist, a feeling is not proof, either for you or for someone else.
(4) The “God Part” of the Brain - Some religious people argue that a god must exist, or why else would we have a part of our brain that can “recognize” a god? What use would that part of our brain be otherwise?
However, imagination is important for us to be able to predict the future, and thus aids our survival. We can imagine all kinds of things that aren’t true. It is a byproduct of being able to imagine things that might be true.
As a matter of fact, scientists have begun to study why some people have religious beliefs and others don’t, from a biological perspective. They have identified certain naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that can give us religious experiences.
In studies of religion and the brain, a new field called neurotheology, they have identified the temporal lobe as a place in the brain that can generate religious experiences.
Another part of the brain that regulates a person’s sense of “self” can be consciously shut down during meditation, giving the meditator (who loses his or her sense of personal boundaries) a feeling of “oneness” with the universe.
(5) “Open Heart” - It will do no good to ask atheists to “open our hearts and accept Jesus” (or any other deity). If we were to set aside our skepticism, we might indeed have an inspirational experience. But this would be an emotional experience and, like a revelation, we’d have no way to verify if a god was really speaking to us or if we were just hallucinating.
(6) Unverifiable “Miracles” / Resurrection Stories - Many religions have miracle stories. And just as people who believe in one religion are usually skeptical towards miracle stories of other religions, atheists are skeptical toward all miracle stories.
Good magicians can perform acts that seem like miracles. Things can be mismeasured and misinterpreted. A “medical miracle” can simply be attributed to our lack of knowledge of how the human body works. Why are there never any indisputable miracles, such as an amputated arm regenerating?
Regarding resurrections, atheists will not find a story of someone resurrecting from the dead to be convincing. There are many such legends in ancient literature and, again, most religious people reject the resurrection stories of other religions.
Modern resurrection stories always seem to occur in Third World countries under unscientific conditions. However, there have been thousands of people in modern hospitals hooked up to machines that verified their deaths when they died. Why didn’t any of them ever resurrect?
(7) Fear of Death / “Heaven” - Atheists don’t like the fact that we’re all going to die any more than religious people do. However, this fear does not prove there is an afterlife – only that we wish there was an afterlife. But wishing doesn’t make it so.
There is no reason to believe our consciousness survives the death of our brains. The mind is not something separate from the body. Chemical alteration and physical damage to our brains can change our thoughts.
Some people get Alzheimer’s disease at the end of their lives. The irreversible damage to their brains can be detected by brain scans. These people lose their ability to think, yet they are still alive. How, one second after these people die, does their thinking return (in a “soul”)?
(8) Fear of Hell - The idea of hell strikes atheists as a scam – an attempt to get people to believe through fear what they cannot believe through reason and evidence.
The only way to approach this “logically” is to find the religion that punishes you the worst for disbelief, and then believe that religion. Okay, you will have saved yourself from the worst punishment that exists – if that religion is the “true” religion.
But if that religion (with its punishment) is not the true religion – if the religion that has the second or third worst punishment for disbelief is the true religion – then you have saved yourself nothing.
So, which religion’s hell is the true hell. Without evidence, we can never know.
(9) “Pascal’s Wager” / Faith - In short, Pascal’s Wager states that we have everything to gain (an eternity in heaven) and nothing to lose by believing in a god. On the other hand, disbelief can lead to a loss of heaven (i.e. hell).
We’ve already noted that heaven is wishful thinking and that hell is a scam, so let’s address the issue of faith.
Pascal’s Wager assumes a person can will himself or herself into having faith. This is simply not the case, at least not for an atheist. So atheists would have to pretend to believe. But according to most definitions of God, wouldn’t God know we were lying to hedge our bets? Would a god reward this?
Part of Pascal’s Wager states that you “lose nothing” by believing. But an atheist would disagree. By believing under these conditions, you’re acknowledging that you’re willing to accept some things on faith. In other words, you’re saying you’re willing to abandon evidence as your standard for judging reality. Faith doesn’t sound so appealing when it’s phrased that way, does it?
(10) Blaming the Victim - Many religions punish people for disbelief. However, belief requires faith, and some people, such as atheists, are incapable of faith. Their minds are only receptive to evidence. Therefore, are atheists to be blamed for not believing when “God” provides insufficient evidence?
(11) The End of the World - Like the concept of hell, this strikes atheists as a scare tactic to get people to believe through fear what they can’t believe through reason and evidence. There have been predictions that the world was going to end for centuries now. The question you might want to ask yourselves, if you’re basing your religious beliefs on this, is how long you’re willing to wait – what amount of time will convince you that the world is not going to end?
(12) Meaning in Life - This is the idea that, without belief in a god, life would be meaningless. Even if this were true, it would only prove we wanted a god to exist to give meaning to our lives, not that a god actually does exist. But the very fact that atheists can find meaning in their lives without a belief in a god shows that god belief is not necessary.
(13) “God is Intangible, Like Love” - Love is not intangible. We can define love both as a type of feeling and as demonstrated by certain types of actions.
Unlike “God,” love is a physical thing. We know the chemicals responsible for the feeling of love.
Also, love depends upon brain structure – a person with a lobotomy or other type of brain damage cannot feel love.
Furthermore, if love were not physical, it would not be confined to our physical brains. We would expect to be able to detect an entity or force called “love” floating around in the air.
(14) Morality/Ethics - This is the idea that without a god we’d have no basis for morality. However, a secular moral code existed before the Bible: the Code of Hammurabi.
In Plato’s dialogue called Euthyphro, Socrates asks a man named Euthyphro whether something is good because God says it is, or does God announce something to be good because it has intrinsic goodness?
If something is good because God says it is, then God might change his mind about what is good. Thus, there would be no absolute morality.
If God merely announces something to be good because it has intrinsic goodness, then we might be able to discover this intrinsic goodness ourselves, without the need for god belief.
Christians can’t even agree among themselves what’s moral when it comes to things like masturbation, premarital sex, homosexuality, divorce, contraception, abortion, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia, and the death penalty.
Christians reject some of the moral laws found in the Bible, such as killing disobedient children or people who work on the sabbath. Therefore, Christians must be applying their own ethical standards from outside the Bible to be able to recognize that these commandments in the Bible are unethical.
Other animals exhibit kindness toward one another and a sense of justice. Morality is something that evolved from us being social beings. It’s based on the selfish advantage we get from cooperation, and on consequences.
(15) Altruism - People sometimes say that without a god there would be no altruism, that evolution only rewards selfish behavior.
However, it can be argued that there is no such thing as altruism, that people always do what they want to do. If they are only faced with bad choices, then people choose the thing they hate the least.
Our choices are based on what gives us (our genes) the best advantage for survival, including raising our reputation in society.
“Altruism” towards family members benefits people who share our genes. “Altruism” towards friends benefits people who may someday return the favor.
Even “altruism” towards strangers has a basis in evolution. This behavior first evolved in small tribes, where everyone knew each other and a good reputation enhanced one’s survival. It is now hard-wired in our brains as a general mode of conduct.
(16) Free Will - Some people argue that without a god there would be no free will, that we would live in a deterministic universe of cause and effect and that we would be mere “robots.”
Actually, there is far less free will than most people think there is. Our conditioning (our biological desire to survive and prosper, combined with our experiences) make certain “choices” far more likely than others. How else can we explain our ability, in many cases, to predict human behavior?
Experiments have shown that our brain makes a “decision” to take action before we become conscious of it!
Some believe that the only free will we have is to exercise a conscious veto over actions suggested by our thoughts.
Most atheists have no problem admitting that free will may be an illusion.
This issue also brings up a conundrum: If a god who created us knows the future, how can we have free will?
In the end, if we are enjoying our lives, does it matter if free will is real or an illusion? Isn’t it only our ego – our healthy self-esteem that is beneficial for survival – that has been conditioned to believe that real free will is somehow better than imaginary free will?
(17) Difficulties of Religion - It has sometimes been argued that because certain religious practices are difficult to follow, nobody would do them if a god didn’t exist. However, it is the belief in the existence of a god that is motivating people. A god doesn’t really have to exist for this to happen.
Difficulties can serve as an initiation rite of passage into being counted one of the “select few.” After all, if just anybody could be “saved,” there might be no point in having a religion.
Finally, the reward for obedience promised by most religions – a heaven – far outweighs any difficulties religion imposes.
(18) False Dichotomies - This is being presented with a false “either/or” proposition, where you’re only given two alternatives when, in fact, there are more possibilities.
Here’s one that many Christians are familiar with: “Either Jesus was insane or he was god. Since Jesus said some wise things, he wasn’t insane. Therefore, he must be God, like he said he was.” But those are not the only two possibilities.
A third option is that, yes, it is possible to say some wise things and be deluded that you are a god.
A fourth possibility is that Jesus didn’t say everything that is attributed to him in the Bible. Maybe he didn’t actually say all those wise things, but the writers of the Bible said he did. Or maybe he never claimed to be God, but the writers turned him into a god after he died.
A fifth possibility is that Jesus is a fictional character and so everything was invented by the authors.
Here’s another example of a false dichotomy: “No one would die for a lie. The early Christians died for Christianity. Therefore, Christianity must be true.”
What’s left out of this is that there is no evidence that anyone who ever personally knew Jesus (if he even existed) was ever martyred. We only have stories of martyrdom.
Another explanation is that the followers had been fooled, intentionally or unintentionally, into thinking Jesus was God, and so they were willing to die for a lie (that they thought was true.)
Another point is that if you believe you’ll end up in a heaven after to die, then martyrdom is no big deal.
Finally, does the fact that the 9/11 bombers were willing to die for their faith make Islam true?
(19) God-of-the-Gaps (Medicine, Life, Universe, etc.) - The god-of-the-gaps argument says that if we don’t currently know the scientific answer to something, then “God did it.”
God-of-the-gaps is used in many areas, but I’ll focus on the three main ones: medicine, life, and the universe. You’ll notice that God never has to prove himself in these arguments. It is always assumed that he gets to win by default.
Here’s a medical example: A person experiences a cure for a disease that science can’t explain. Therefore, “God did it.”
But this assumes we know everything about the human body, so that a natural explanation is impossible. But the fact is, we don’t have complete medical knowledge. Why don’t we ever see something that would be a true miracle, like an amputated arm instantaneously regenerating?
Several studies of prayer, where the patients didn’t know whether or not they were being prayed for, including a study by the Mayo Clinic, have shown prayer to have no effect on healing.
(This raises the question of why we would have to beg an all-powerful, all-loving god to be healed in the first place. It seems ironic, to say the least, to pray to a god to be cured from diseases and the effects of natural disasters that he himself created. It also raises the Problem of Evil: If God is all-powerful and all-loving, why does evil exist in the first place?)
An example of god-of-the-gaps as it applies to life is creationism and “intelligent design.” It says we don’t know everything about evolution, therefore “God did it.” This ignores the fossil and genetic evidence and also fails to explain the many poor and sub-optimal “designs” we find in nature. Is “God” an incompetent or sloppy designer?
The final and most popular example of god-of-the-gaps is the universe. But to say we don’t know the origins of the universe – if the universe even had an ultimate beginning – does not mean that “God did it.”
And, of course, it begs the question: Who created God? If complex things need a creator to explain their existence, then “God,” who by the traditional definition is far more complex than the universe, and is even more in need of a creator.
(20) “Fine-tuning” of the Earth - Some religious people argue that the Earth is positioned “just right” in the solar system (not too hot, not too cold, etc.) for life to exist. Furthermore, the elements on Earth (carbon, oxygen, etc.) are also “just right.” These people claim that this couldn’t have happened “by accident,” so a god must exist to have done the positioning and chemistry.
We should be able to recognize a god-of-the-gaps argument here. But an even better rebuttal exists. If Earth was the only planet in the universe, then it would indeed be remarkable that our conditions turned out to be “just right.”
But most religious people acknowledge that there are probably thousands, if not millions, of other planets in the universe. (Our own solar system has eight planets.) Therefore, by chance, at least one of those planets will have conditions that will produce some kind of life.
We can imagine religious purple creatures with four eyes and breathing carbon dioxide on another planet also falsely believing that their planet is “fine-tuned” and that a creator god exists in their image.
(21)“Fine-tuning” of the Universe - Some religious people argue that the six physical constants of the universe (which control such things as the strength of gravity) can only exist within a very narrow range to produce a universe capable of sustaining life. Therefore, since this couldn’t have happened “by accident,” a god must have done it.
Again, this is a god-of-the-gaps argument. But beyond that, this argument assumes that we know everything about astrophysics – a field in which new discoveries are made on almost a daily basis. We may discover that our universe is not so “fine tuned” after all.
However, the best rebuttal is that there may exist multiple universes – either separately or as “bubble universes” within a single universe. Each of these universes could have its own set of constants. Given enough universes, by chance it is likely that at least one will produce and sustain life.
We know it is possible for at least one universe to exist – we are in it. If one can exist, why not many? On the other hand, we have no evidence that it is possible for even one god to exist.
Conclusion - Religious people have a tough, if not impossible task to try to prove a god exists, let alone that their particular religion is true. If any religion had objective standards, wouldn’t everyone be flocking to the same “true” religion? Instead we find that people tend to believe, to varying degrees, the religion in which they were indoctrinated. Or they are atheists.
Excellently well thought-out and written essay. This covers most of the arguments I have ever had with my mother. I just hope that you haven't been left with the need for a drink, as is usually the case with me!
Brent S.
While I would like to 'ditto' you in handing out some well deserved kudos for this list, to our very own webmaster Dave, it's quite clear he borrowed this piece and posted it for everyone's benefit and hence, didn't spend countless hours writing all this; followed by "the need for a drink".. or two or three etc.. LOL
I'm pretty darn sure Dave's ethics would NEVER allow him to take credit for something he didn't write, nor is this even implied in his post.
ATF
After all, God could have positioned the planet any damn way he pleased and just created us with the ability to live under those circumstances...
I realize the argument is virtually the same for both sides on this one....
"Regarding the "fine-tuning" of the Earth......After all, God could have positioned the planet any damn way he pleased and just created us with the ability to live under those circumstances"
----
Jamie,
Yes it's true that a god could have put the earth in a place where life he created would thrive.
However, if there is a god who's main purpose was to create HUMANS for his pleasure (or torture!) then there is another begging question to his overkill methods.
What is the purpose of making more than just our sun and earth's moon and the other planets in our solar system?
If one speculates he wanted us to have some stars to behold at night, then creating the HUGE milky way galaxy for us to view would have been more than adequate for that job.
Alas, we have a bazillion huge galaxies out there, each one containing a bazillion stars.
To what end would such an over-design of a universe benefit humankind, especially if one believes spirits don't require planets and the 'second coming' of Jesus is right around the corner.
Also, if his intent was to create a universe to support human life forms, then why are the majority of planets we've studied out there, incapable of supporting human life, if any life at all.
Why wouldn't this all-powerful god arrange his planets around his stars in such a manner that most of them would have the ability to support life.
What god purpose does a planet like Mercury serve for mankind....it's nothing but a super hot rock orbiting the sun?
Why didn't he let Mars keep it's atmosphere so that earthlings could one day expand their existence from earth onto mars?
Other than Jupiter serving as an ancient 'god', what benefit to us is a planet made of gas and with a gravity that would crush flat any human attempting to enter it's realm?
Why did god place the nearest star at a distance of FOUR light years from our Earth?
Why did he create some stars in a manner, that when they die, their gamma ray burst could wipe out every life form on this earth, if those intense rays should happen in our direction?
There a MANY such questions one could ask about god's methods of creating our universe in a seemingly haphazard manner, but such questions never bother the faithful xtians.
To them, god has a purpose for all he does, but loves to hide his reasons from us lowly humans....YEAH RIGHT!!
ATF (who wonders if a gamma ray burst would turn him from tooth-fairy into The Hulk?)
the order inherent in nature. Or else what should they be looking for?
The order in nature can not have
created itself by coincidences. To expect that is to flip a coin trillions of times and expect that it will land always on the same side.
No order is possible without an external creator (or designer)which we call God.(Especially such a complicated order as the order in nature.)
God and sciences are not adverse
to one another - God is the creator
and the sciences explain the order
God has established.
---
As for miracles, we just need to look for them in the lives of the
humble individuals. So many of them are happening everyday.
---
Those which happened to me, thirty of them, I have collected in my book "SMALL MIRACLES" by Askin Ozcan , ISBN 1598001000 Outskirts Press .
They are true to the last word.
http://www.outskirtspress.com/smallmiracles
Who else but a superior power can have made them? Science can try to explain them, and can even succeed to do that one day, but it doesn't change the fact that a superior power has made them.
Best regards
Askin Ozcan
Author
The Catechism I learned as a child said that the purpose of life is to glorify god and enjoy him for ever.
Except it made me wonder, then what is his purpose?
He has no one higher to give meaning to his existence...
Which I suppose is just another twist on the old, 'If he created us then who created him?'
As regards Altruism: Richard Dawkins has published an interesting essay entitled "Atheists for Jesus," available in the new anthology edited by Christopher Hitchens, in which he suggests that the strain of "superniceness" which has apparently recently (last few thusand years) manifested in humanity could never have developed in a primitive setting, since it is counter-productive in an evolutionary sense. He also suggests that we now have the ability to encourage the development of this strain in humanity.
The book is "An atheist Reader," and while it is a little light on documentation, it has material which has never been published anywhere else.
That's true if you define "god" to be "order in nature". That's not the way most people define god, however, so I'm afraid you have some work to do to show that your god exists.
Askin said "The order in nature can not have created itself by coincidences."
The "order" that we see is partially explained by "symmetries" in nature--that is, order is almost synonymous with "simplicity". I don't think anybody claims that "order" created itself. If nothing else, that would be a bit of a causal conundrum (i.e. something creating itself). The issue would seem to be whether some invisible being created it (which is, presumably, what you are claiming). For that I see no credible evidence. Can you provide some?
Askin: "To expect that is to flip a coin trillions of times and expect that it will land always on the same side."
Absolutely not! Let's look at self-assembling molecules (such as DNA, RNA, and assorted long organic molecules). The docking of each atom or component is at some level helped along by the random buffeting of surrounding material. However, this does not make the process random! Far from it. The same is so for organisms. Organisms can evolve to more complex forms by mutation and selection. The latter is not random at all.
Askin: "No order is possible without an external creator..."
That's a bald assertion. Have you any evidence to support it? Also, do you consider such a creator (or at least her "mind") to be "ordered" or "chaotic"?
Askin: "As for miracles, we just need to look for them in the lives of the humble individuals. So many of them are happening everyday."
You'll need to be more specific.
Askin: "Those which happened to me, thirty of them, I have collected in my book..."
Why don't you pick out one or two that you think are most compelling, and let's discuss them. I expect that what we'll find is one or more of the following: 1) uncorroborated claims, 2) unsupported assertions that some event simply could not have occurred without the assistance of an invisible being, 3) wildly inaccurate claims about probabilities, or 4) irrational rejection of mundane explanations. But... if you think I'm wrong, just spell out several of your "miracles".
Askin: "Science can try to explain them, and can even succeed to do that one day, but it doesn't change the fact that a superior power has made them."
In other words, you will stick to your claim no matter what evidence surfaces. Is that correct, or did I read too much into what you just said?
Allow me to make a suggestion. Pick one or two of the points made in the original posting, and address them directly. Your sweeping assessment of "personal" and "shallow" is not helpful in the least. Here is one of the points that I picked at random: "(14) Morality/Ethics - This is the idea that without a god we’d have no basis for morality. However, a secular moral code existed before the Bible: the Code of Hammurabi." That's not "personal" in that it offers an explicit moral code that predates Christianity. You can look it up and read it yourself. It's not "shallow" in that it directly addresses the frequent claim that moral codes somehow depend upon Christianity. The Code of Hammurabi predates even the OT, and it contains numerous well-articulated moral codes. Have you anything to say about that?
On the off chance that you adhere to a creed of some sort, and are not just being a pain in the ass, let me advise you that the proof you mentioned is your job, not ours. We here are called "freethinkers" and we live pretty much without creeds or doctrines. I myself deny any meaning at all in life. If you want me to abandon this way of thinking--which by the way pleases me to no end--then come up with proofs for your side.
About the author being shallow: Let me hear you rebut anything he said.
And no, the author was not simply being personal. He drew up a good and comprehensive list of objections. These are the same things that all deconverted people have faced. They are not merely "personal". The authors objections are sound, well-reasoned and impersonal.
Now try again. And by way of warning: do not debate jim arvo, unless you just enjoy humiliation.
and that was more useful info than anything i read in the article above.
Also of interest is the Code of Ur-Nammu.
Anonymous dogmatically asserted: "Just be sure that the basis of morality is not found in man."
Morality is strictly a human affair. Reading over these laws, I'm struck by the observation that the deities who supposedly handed down these primitive laws were a bit under-developed in their understanding of justice.
It seems to me that it's considerably more likely that as populations increased, a general need for some sort of "rule by law" was invented by the ruling human beings. I see no reason to assume activity by the supernatural in the codes of Hammurabi or Moses or any of them, regardless of the verbiage introducing these "laws." When dealing with an ignorantly superstitious population, "The God Said" is much more authoritative than "The human king said." Fortunately we've evolved a tad beyond those days. How far do you think today's leaders in the First World would get by telling voters that "God Said" when attempting to establish new laws? Hmm?
If the laws of Moses are handed down by a god, then it would seem appropriate to follow all those laws to the letter. Yet, we ignore nearly every law in the first five books of Moses. We don't even follow the Decalogue. Do you attend temple on Saturday? Do you go shopping on the Sabbath? Do you and your church buds go out to eat at commercial restaurants after church? You are profaning the Sabbath, and you don't care, because those laws are archaic.
"Of the people, by the people, and for the people" is a considerably better approach to law then "The God Said," wouldn't you agree?
Think about it.
Yes, that's correct. I was addressing Christian claims to morality, not general deistic claims. Sorry for not making that clear.
No-name: "i dont believe you will find an athiests belief system in antiquity...."
Not as such, no, and for a simple reason. It's uncommon to find anything that is labeled "atheist" such-and-such. For those of us who do not subscribe to religious doctrines, religion simply does not enter into important decisions or actions. There's no reason to mention it or its absence. For example, the ethical system of Confucius was not touted as "atheistic," although it is not rooted in supernatural beliefs. Many (most?) Buddhists also lack belief in an omnipotent supernatural being, and are therefore considered to be atheistic by many Christians. That is of no concern to the Buddhists.
No-name: "...any other source is merely also a source of someones opinion and hardly binding on the whole."
You overlook the central role of biology. As highly social creatures, we have a great deal of cognitive machinery that is responsible for empathy, emotional attachments, indignation, and our sense of "justice". When societies declare that rape, murder, theft, and mayhem are "wrong", they do not do so capriciously, but because those beliefs resonate with our innate social reasoning. So I strongly disagree that the laws we articulate as a society are either "god given" or arbitrary and non-binding. That is a false dichotomy that we hear frequently from visiting Christians. It ignores the huge middle ground occupied by biologically-rooted behaviors.
No-name: "...to be binding on the whole would require it to be objective and no matter how hard you try to believe any athiest source will always be subjective."
If by "objective" you mean originating outside of ourselves (e.g. handed down by god), then you need to explain how you reached this conclusion. I see countless man-made moral and ethical systems that appear to be "binding" in that the society as a whole follows them (save for an inevitable "criminal" element that is present in any society).
No-name: "...end result is one persons opinion is just as valid as anothers difrent opinion."
Absolutely false. If I claim that it is wrong to eat turnips, that is not on equal footing with those who claim that murder of humans is wrong. The reason is simple. We have empathy for our fellow humans, not for turnips. Hence, an injunction against cruelty to turnips has little chance of being adopted and enforced as a law of the land, while injunctions against murder are found in EVERY culture.
No-name: "...your personal grudge..."
My "personal grudge"? Do you know what an ad hominem attack is?
No-name: "...We will leave that God undefined for now, just be sure that the basis of morality is not found in man."
I'm not sure I follow that last bit. You wish to leave "god" undefined, yet you claim that "god" must be the basis of morality? Please explain.
By the way, can you PLEASE pick a pseudonym for yourself?
Therefore, the larger task before you is to demonstrate that some moral system is indeed handed down from god; not merely that it claims to be. As far as I have been able to determine, they all spring from the minds of humans, all claims of divine authorship not withstanding.
i know this of all the religions and multitudes of societies you could have named you chose to name only one that the code predated and I believe it is the one you hate the most.
"As for miracles, we just need to look for them in the lives of the
humble individuals. So many of them are happening everyday."
I've heard this same type of propaganda before. However, nobody ever seems to have any "REAL SOLD VISIBLE" proof of what they claim. Until then what you claim is all hear say.
ANONYMOUS (Askin Ozcan) SAID:
"Those which happened to me, thirty of them, I have collected in my book "SMALL MIRACLES" by Askin Ozcan , ISBN 1598001000 Outskirts Press."
Being the skeptic that I am, I have learned not to believe everything that I read. Why in the hell should I or anyone else believe you? Sounds like to me that you are trying to sell books, and make a buck or two. I'm not buying your bullshit. I think you are blowing smoke up everyone's asses. Me thinks that you are just another typical "Spiritual Con-Artist".
It's a shame that there are naive people who are stupid enough to believe what you claim. Your words are nothing without solid visible proof.
Poltergoost
We discuss Christianity here on a daily basis, not Islam, not Buddhism, not Jainism, not Deism. The reasons are many. Your accusation of "hate" is totally unwarranted (not to mention unfounded).
the other answer may come tomorrow i am going home for today.
Let me stop you there. Define for me what you mean by the action being "wrong" in this context. I can give a definition, but you are making a specific claim here (that biology doesn't account for something), so I want to hear YOUR definition so that I can fully understand what you are claiming.
irritatingly-unnamed said "...stalin has just as much evidence from nature to support his actions as Jim is trying to use to support his."
I don't follow you. What "evidence" are you referring to? What actions are you referring to?
irritating-unnamed said "...who is to say whether stalin or jim is right or wrong or maybe they are both right or both wrong who is the final arbiter for the interpretation of science."
Please be more specific. Your use of "right" and "wrong" here now seems different from your use above (i.e. not in the moral sense). Or is it? What specific claims are you talking about?
By the way, is there some reason you refuse to select a pseudonym for yourself?
As a bit of a recap, let me state for your more clearly what I wish for you to show. As I think it's a bit of a red herring to debate your assertion that all morality must come from god, I'd like to focus on something far simpler: the assertion that SOME morality comes from god. Toward that end, please show me one principle, or commandment, or injunction (whatever terminology you wish to use) that is demonstrably absolute and/or of divine origin.
The reason for this is simple. I do not want to lose track of the fact that you are making a fantastic claim, and that however desirable an absolute morality might be, it's no substitute for demonstrating that such a thing actually EXISTS. That point often gets lost in these discussions.
Liniasmax
"Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaping_to_a_conclusion
Anony uses a single atheist (presumably), to represent the extremely diverse category of atheism. Moreover, I know of no atheism manifesto or creed that establishes a common morality.
Anony uses their hasty generalization fallacy, to build an even stronger fallacy...
Complex Question Fallacy: "Many questions, also known as complex question, presupposition, loaded question, "trick question", or plurium interrogationum (Latin, "of many questions"), is an informal fallacy. It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner's agenda. An example of this is the question "Are you still beating your wife?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_question
If anony, attempts to suggest that "all" people have subjective morality, through relativism, then, using the term "atheism" in the statement is "irrelevant", and "superfluous".
Even one's conscience tells you it's wrong in the absence of instruction from 'God's Word' (which actually seems to encourage it).
So who needs it?
i am making no such claim about biology. what i am claiming is that your interpretation of nature is no more valid than stalins interpretation or mine. so it hardly matters what way i define it. stalin could appeal to nature too. i dont even think that is an acceptable approach because everything we know we know from nature, try to imagine anything that is not derived from an understanding of the world you know, you cant do it noone can. so please dont go using nature to justify your beliefs. nature can reveal alot about the truth socrates concluded from nature that God must be diffrent than the pantheon of gods in his time and he worshipped the unknown god. they eventually killed him.
jim also quotes: No-name: "...end result is one persons opinion is just as valid as anothers difrent opinion."
jim then replies: Absolutely false. If I claim that it is wrong to eat turnips, that is not on equal footing with those who claim that murder of humans is wrong. The reason is simple. We have empathy for our fellow humans, not for turnips. Hence, an injunction against cruelty to turnips has little chance of being adopted and enforced as a law of the land, while injunctions against murder are found in EVERY culture.
and there you have it Jims appeal to a Universal Morality. Why do you think there is a universal morality? Where did it come from? and dont go with a circular argument that it is developed from society as a whole. first of all when that is grounded in history you find that because it was expediant to stalin he could arbitrarily devalue the human life of all those who disagreed with him and kill them. and you claim there is a human empathy guiding it all. well that sounds great until someone doesnt believe the human empathy philosophy for life. an atheist cant honestly claim there is anything wrong with what stalin did after all he was an atheist stalin would have known if there was. yet you try to appeal to and i quote you "our innate social reasoning". Innate? well how could that be? where could that have come from? do we have a conscience? is it possible there is an actual design? cs lewis would say now you stepped in it and i am just about to quote him exxtensively in the next post because he thinks its innate also but that can only result in one conclusion.
I will let you circle your wagons and work on damage control, because the atheist argument for morality is in jepordy. Confucius would appreciate it if you would stop using him or buddism to justify an athiest viewpoint he says they never believed that there was not some sort of higher power. He does appreciate your acknowledging that though.
As the Webmaster said, morality is a human affair. What was that you said......"be sure that the basis of morality is not found in man". Sorry, but the basis of morality is found in man--morality is made by man, for man, and man can change it as he wishes, whenever he wishes, for the reasons that he wishes. To rephrase your statement, I am sure that the basis of morality is found in man--in his needs; in his prejudices; in his caprices--and I do not have the responsibility of being sure of any other source.
I do not believe in your god, or your gods. I do not believe in your god, or Hammurabi's god, or any other god or gods. If you are insecure; if you must go crawling to your gods for comfort or guidance, than do so and leave us in peace.
And by the way, you are actually displaying a flicker of intelligence. You surprize me, you do, really. But you have not gotten past the same old shit about how we need to go outside ourselves to find a basis for our thinking and conduct, and for our laws. Look in the fucking mirror. There is your basis. It is all you have.
And I can safely predict that you will bring up Hitler. Go ahead. Oh my goodness, we have to have our gods, otherwise we will have Hitler. Some choice. My position enjoys, at least, the advantage of consistency. If atheism means the occasional Hitler, so be it.
In the past, many people got together and attempted self-regulation and self-determination. They were driven by self-interest as much as anything else, and were often full of shit. But if you know of any religion that provides an alternative, let me know. Let us all know. We as sentient beings need to get off our knees. god means servility.
And for your edification:
The Declaration of Independence
The Declaration of London
The Declaration of Paris
The Declaration of Rights
The Declaration of Rights and Grievances
The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen
The Declaration of Arbroath
See any good encyclopedia. If anyone is going to establish his own liberty, personal as well as political, he cannot chicken out and appeal to the gods. That will get him nowhere. Either take the responsibility on yourself, or go back to your church.
No-name: "...i am making no such claim about biology."
You claimed that biology cannot account for something. I'd like for you to articulate that claim more clearly. It appears you are declining to do so.
No-name: "...what i am claiming is that your interpretation of nature is no more valid than stalins interpretation or mine."
I presume what you mean by my "interpretation of nature" is that we have innate social tendencies (which I will elaborate as needed). What was Stalin's "interpretation of nature", or yours for that matter? Frankly I can't make much sense of many of your comments as they are too vague.
No-name: "...so it hardly matters what way i define it [the word 'wrong']."
Let me explain why it does matter. If your very definition of "wrong" is that it is counter to the wishes of some deity, or counter to some "absolute law", then arguing over what is "right" and "wrong" with you is pointless. We will constantly talk past one another. If that's how you define "right" and "wrong", then we must first start by determining whether there is ANYTHING that meets your definition, lest we commit the existential fallacy (arguing over attributes of something that does not even exist). Do you see my point? So, please, tell me what YOU mean by an action being "wrong".
No-name: "stalin could appeal to nature too."
Sure. And he might have darned socks too. Can you please make a concrete connection to what we're discussing here, and what such an "appeal" might consist in?
No-name: "...so please dont go using nature to justify your beliefs."
I will present my case as I like. In any case, you've given no indication that you even understand what my position is, so you are currently in no position to judge it. I am not using nature to "justify" my beliefs. My reference to nature thus far has been to explain the prevalence of certain moral principles across essentially all cultures. I see now that that discussion was a bit premature; we must first establish exactly what it is we are discussing. You would help that along tremendously if you would kindly define what you mean by an action being "wrong".
No-name: "...and there you have it Jims appeal to a Universal Morality. Why do you think there is a universal morality? Where did it come from?"
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that there is such as thing as "Universal Morality"--that is entirely your construct. Again, I suggested that there are certain tendencies that we share by virtue of being organisms of the same species. That's a far cry from "Universal Morality".
No-name: "...and dont go with a circular argument that it is developed from society as a whole."
What circularity are you imagining? We, as organisms, evolved certain behavioral traits. Those traits influence the "laws" that we tend to codify as societies. We tend to make laws prohibiting violence against humans, not turnips, because the former leads to greater survival whereas the latter does not. However, as I've already pointed out--this point is premature in this discussion as we've not even pinned down what it is that we're discussing yet.
No-name: "...first of all when that is grounded in history you find that because it was expediant to stalin he could arbitrarily devalue the human life of all those who disagreed with him and kill them. and you claim there is a human empathy guiding it all."
I've consistently used the word "tendency". As a species, we strongly tend to abhor violence toward ourselves and toward our immediate "clan". There are certainly exceptions, especially when the circumstances are radically different from our distant ancestral environment (in which small clans were the norm). This is a huge topic, which includes the field known as Evolutionary Psychology. I'll be happy to walk you through some of it, and point you to some of the relevant literature. For now, suffice it to say that Stalin's behavior in no way undermines the universal human *tendency* to show empathy toward one's immediate associates, and to engage in highly structured social exchanges. Do you deny that the vast majority of the human race today finds the actions of Stalin and Hitler to be abhorrent? Do you deny that this abhorrence lead to their ultimate downfall?
No-name: "...well that sounds great until someone doesnt believe the human empathy philosophy for life."
Such individuals surface from time to time. One class of such people are the "sociopaths"--those whose cognitive processing lacks some of the patterns we find in "normal" social individuals. Such people are commonly separated from the others (e.g. put in prison).
No-name: "...an atheist cant honestly claim there is anything wrong with what stalin did..."
I'm an atheist, and I find it abhorrent to do unnecessary harm to others, and I share this attribute with large portions of society. This is partly the way I am "wired", partly a result of my upbringing, and partly a result of higher reasoning. I'm going to avoid using the word "wrong" for the moment because I want to hear your definition first; I will then supply mine (which will contain nothing I haven't already said). Once I give you my definition, you MAY then be in a position to judge whether I can "honestly" make any claims about it. Until then, you have no basis for such a judgment.
No-name: "...yet you try to appeal to and i quote you 'our innate social reasoning'."
Do you even understand what I mean by that phrase? If not, then you are in no position to critique what I've said, are you?
No-name: "Innate? well how could that be? where could that have come from?"
I'll gladly go into that later. Those are actually rather straightforward questions.
No-name: "do we have a conscience?"
Yes, if by "conscience" you mean a tendency to feel "guilt" or "shame" when we knowingly break a social rule, especially those instilled in us from an early age.
No-name: "...is it possible there is an actual design?"
Yes. Point to absolutely ANYTHING and ask, "Is it possible that it was designed?" I will answer the same way: Yes. That's because the attribute of being "designed" by some powerful being is unfalsifiable. There is no way to completely rule it out, even in principle. However, that is not to say that there is a shred of evidence for it.
No-name: "cs lewis would say now you stepped in it and i am just about to quote him exxtensively in the next post..."
I'm quite familiar with C. S. Lewis. Yes, he firmly believed that our moral sense was instilled in us by "god". Have you looked carefully at his arguments for why he believed this to be so?
No-name: "I will let you circle your wagons and work on damage control, because the atheist argument for morality is in jepordy."
Wow, what a load of arrogant BS you just spewed. Do you actually think that anything you've said here poses the slightest challenge to a naturalistic worldview? If you wish to even be taken seriously, start by understanding what is being said to you, and avoid setting up straw men.
Let me remind you of several simple requests that you've yet to respond to:
1) Please define what you mean by an action being "wrong".
2) Please exhibit ONE principle/commandment that is demonstrably ABSOLUTE, or divinely authored.
I'll refrain from the "circle your wagons" rhetoric. However, I'll point out that you have no argument whatsoever unless or until you can address those trivial requests.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
you should stop making the error of quoting people with a strong faith in God and interpreting there words as if they didnt believe in God. its not intellectually honest.
Please answer Jim Arvo's questions.
Thanks.
And you might want to read up a bit on Mr. Lincoln. You may change your mind about his religious devotion. Further, you will notice that regardless of Mr. Lincoln's mindset, he didn't say "of the god, by the god and for the god."
Laws are for people and society and are best when controlled by the people. Stalin was a ruthless dictator. If you want to compare apples to apples, then let's compare Stalin to the Czar of Russia, who was supposedly ordained by GOD to rule. Or we could peruse the lives of the French ordained-by-God royalty. Or better yet, let's see the results of rule by GOD through popes and clerics.
You don't honestly think a theocracy is a better form of government than our republic, do you? And if God's laws are absolute, I wonder if you honor the Sabbath as commanded. No buying or selling on the Sabbath. No going to McDonalds on the Sabbath. No shopping and no working.
Is honoring the Sabbath, one of the 10 Commandments, absolute or not?
no im claiming the exact opposite that people can use it to account for everything they want. so why cant stalin claim survival of the fittest?
Jim arvo said: Let me explain why it does matter. If your very definition of "wrong" is that it is counter to the wishes of some deity, or counter to some "absolute law", then arguing over what is "right" and "wrong" with you is pointless.
i say something could be considered "wrong" from the standpoint of objective morality in that we are really obligated to that our duties arise from the way things are and not simply from our desires or subjective dispositions. any offense against that would be a wrong. such as the following.
1 real moral obligation is a fact. that is we are really truly objectively obligated to do good and avoid evil.
2 either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the religous one
3 but the atheistic one is incompatible with there being moral obligation
4 therefore the religous view is correct.
"wrong" from a subjective i would say would have to be a matter of perspective. the one whose belief system was infringed by a differing one could by his system claim that was wrong from his system but could only judge whether or not the other person was wrong based upon that other persons differing system (and it is quite possible there may be nothing wrong with the other persons actions based on the other persons system). which is why i suggest based on a subjective morality stalin cannot be wrong in what he did because i am sure in his belief system what he was doing was quit justified. pick anything for me to believe and i will use all your humanists arguments to justify it and it will work but i will call you out when you play the objective morality card because that is the exclusive domain of the religous. i did claim your using an objective morality argument from your using the word innate (congenital, inborn, native) it just reeks of there being something designed in our being just like cs lewis thought and yes i have read him. he converted from atheism i do believe.
i meant to say "universal morality"
That is what this shit is about. You can believe what you bloody well please about your gods. Whether one god exists, or twenty million gods, is a matter of only the most profound indifference. But do not talk to me about your imaginary principles which come from the mind of your imaginary gods. I care nothing for your principles.
About the Gettysburg Address: Lincoln was indifferent about religion--any religion. He had no intention of saying that a nation under god could possibly mean under the authority of a deity or under the authority of any set of formal religious principles.
My favorite Jefferson quote: "I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
To set you straight: I do not share Jim's belief in a universal morality, as you seem to think. We are sophisticated animals on our hind legs, nothing more. I regret to say that I do not have any agreement with my fellow atheists who attempt to argue morality in the abscence of purpose or goal in the universe. Read my posts a little more carefully.I am being consistent.
About documents being my standards of morality: I said no such thing. You are not accustomed to debating people like me and you can't seem to understand what I am saying. You have been given a smatering of training, but not adequate. The documents simply represent our best attempts to govern ourselves. They are not binding. They are not "morals" or "truth". The Constitution itself is not sacred; it can be amended or even re-written any time. Are you suggesting that if the speed limit is 55MPH, that I am immoral for going 60? Laws are made by people; just people; that's all.
Okay, now, what deity is it that you believe in? What is his will? Do you want the will of your deity codified into law? Reinforced by what punishments? It does no goddamned good to sit there and preach about your objective moral principles unless you are actually serious about imposing them by force. Otherwise, what objectivity do they have? Does it make sense to say that your principles are objective, and then turn around and support freedom of conscience, freedom of choice, and freedom of thought? I think not.
Try again.
lets do just that because you dont seem to be following the real issue very well.
in a subjective morality system Stalin and the Czar can only be measured to their beliefs which would also have been influenced by the beliefs of the time. and whether either of them murdered could only be determined by their own understanding of murder and whether or not they violated that understanding. the societies they answered too may feel differently and may act on the concensus of there morality/safety but ultimately Stalin or the czar could stand bravely before their accusers justified in their own minds that they are martyrs for their own cause.
in a objective or universal morality. stalin and the czar are judged in some form by a higher power and answer for their obedience or disobedience to that standard that is set in their being. presumably by one of the various notions of god. they usually spend eternity somewhere or reincarnate til they get it right based on their obedience.
how are those apples?
When you get done ignoring everyone elses questions, I wonder if you might like to change your "strategy" and actually answer these:
1) Is it absolutely 100% morally wrong to tell a lie?
2) Is it absolutely 100% morally wrong to kill another human being?
3) Is it absolutely 100% morally wrong to earn a living on the Sabbath?
4) Is your biblegod's "Word" intrinsically "good", and "just"?
5) If "yes" to question 4, then tell me, would you kill your own mother, and/or child, if you were absolutely 100% convinced that this was the wishes of "God"?
6) If "no" to question 5, why not?
I await your honest and straight-forward answers to these questions.
Okay, let's say that is so. Does that mean that anyone can make a DEFENSIBLE argument for ANYTHING? No, it does not. So, please be specific. Appealing to the existence of myriad BAD arguments does not help your case.
No-name: "...so why cant stalin claim survival of the fittest?"
I think you are asking this: Why can't Stalin say that his killing of others was "right" because all that mattered was his own survival? Is that a fair statement? If so, my first question to you is, once again, what do you mean by "right" in this context? If you mean that Stalin liked the idea, then you have something close to a tautology. If you mean that it is in accord with what most people would deem acceptable behavior, then clearly Stalin's argument would be wrong. If you mean in accord with some god-given set of rules, I'll ask you to first produce those rules and show me that they are god-given. Did I leave some base uncovered?
As an aside, "survival of the fittest" is an informal description of what we observe; it's not a normative principle. In other words, it cannot be used to justify killing any more than the law of universal gravitation can be used to justify pushing someone out of a window.
No-name: "i say something could be considered 'wrong' from the standpoint of objective morality..."
You just substituted one undefined term for another. What is YOUR definition of "objective morality"? To save some time, let me take a crack at defining it for you. If you don't like my definition, then please go right ahead and modify it or supply your own.
Objective Morality: Rules of human conduct that are independent of what any human or collection of humans thinks or desires.
Is that close? Please amend and/or modify as you wish, but please try to avoid introducing more undefined terms in your definition, or we'll be going around and around for a very long time. Assuming for a moment that my definition suffices, then your definition of "wrong" is that it is counter to some such purported set of rules. Right?
I don't know if you will accept my definitions or not, but either way, please tell me whether the notions of "right" or "wrong" have any meaning with respect to the rules themselves. That is, are the rules constituting an "Objective Morality" arbitrary, or are some more "right" or "desirable" than others?
1 real moral obligation is a fact. that is we are really truly objectively obligated to do good and avoid evil.
More undefined terms. What is the "moral obligation" you speak of. Yes, I can give it a meaningful definition, but I'm sure it's not the same as yours. What is YOUR definition for "moral obligation"? Claiming it to be a "fact" is silly if it's not even clear what you're talking about. And what do you mean by "obliged"? Do you mean that punishment will follow if the obligation is not met? If not, please clarify.
2 either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the religous one
There is more than one "religious" view. I can even imagine something of a continuum between the naturalistic view and the supernatural view. So this is a false dichotomy as stated.
3 but the atheistic one is incompatible with there being moral obligation
Define "moral obligation" first, then we can see whether your statement holds up. By my definition of "moral obligation" your statement is patently false. So the whole argument turns on that phrase. You need to not only define it, but show that your definition corresponds to something real.
4 therefore the religous view is correct.
Sorry, you're far from having a compelling argument. You've created a false dichotomy, and you've asserted something as a "fact" without defining what it is or showing that it exists.
No-name: "'wrong' from a subjective i would say would have to be a matter of perspective."
Okay, so you define something to be "subjectively wrong" if it's not to the liking of the person making the pronouncement. Do you agree? Okay. I'm curious to see what you intend to do with that definition.
No-name: "...which is why i suggest based on a subjective morality stalin cannot be wrong..."
Sure, if "subjective morality" means any rules that a particular person wishes to play by, what you said is essentially a tautology. If we were to ask Stalin whether his actions were "right" or "justifiable", he might well have answered "Da". Right? I agree. Both Stalin and Hitler probably thought they were "right" or "justified" in some sense. Where do you go with that?
No-name: "pick anything for me to believe and i will use all your humanists arguments to justify it..."
All *my* "humanist" arguments? Pardon me, but it seems you still don't have the foggiest idea of what my position is. And again, you seem to confuse the existence of any old argument with the existence of a SOUND argument. Yes, one can construct lousy arguments ad infinitum. What does that show?
No-name: "...i will call you out when you play the objective morality card because that is the exclusive domain of the religous."
DEFINE "OBJECTIVE MORALITY". If we go with what I think YOU mean by it, then you are quite welcome to it, and I'm delighted to leave it in the domain or religion, as it appears to be a fictitious entity. The meaning I would assign to it (although I might choose a different term for it) is operational, based on biology. It's observable, documentable, and explainable in wholly naturalistic terms. Please don't project your notions onto my arguments. If you do, they immediately turn into straw men.
I do not wish to attack a straw men myself, which is why I want YOU to define what you mean by the terms you use. If you claim that X is a fact, then you had better be clear about what X is, and why it exists. I honestly don't think you can clear both of those (minor) hurdles, but you're welcome to try.
No-name: "...i did claim your using an objective morality argument from your using the word innate (congenital, inborn, native)..."
You are making a huge leap from what I said. What is innate in all humans is some basic cognitive machinery for low-level social behaviors. This includes a predisposition toward empathy (at least among one's kin), a capacity for feeling "shame" and "indignation", etc. There are sound biological reasons for all of this. You are so very eager to inflate what I say into grand claims. Is there some reason you feel compelled to put words in my mouth? I urge you, once again, to try to grasp what I'm telling you before you jump to unfounded conclusions. (Note to self: get religious moralists