By LiniasmaxA song lyric I find amusing is from an old REO Speedwagon song:
It's time to bring this ship into the shore
And throw away the oars forever
This is an early 1980s tune if I remember correctly, but either way I believe it's been a long time since we rowed ships with oars. (I love my fellow brethren and sistren on this site by the way... yes I'm random). Bad analogies can work, for I believe it is time to throw away the oars forever of the life I began leaving behind in April. You see, when I was a Christian, especially in the younger days, a favorite, inspiring thing to say was: leave the safety of the shore and go deeper into the love of Christ... Be like Peter... let go... Jesus is the life preserver...etc. etc." What is now cheesy was at the time so profound...but...
At this moment - every Sunday afternoon - I always feel like bringing the big ship of my faith and the life it has built for me into the shore and getting rid of the oars (to complete the metaphor) - flat out reversing what I was implored to do back in the day. My friends, today I sat in a pew and through whatever we call Sunday School now. Over the weekend I visited Pentecostal and Baptist family, getting to be privy to the pompous attitudes involved with having a correct view of the godhead. I swallowed my tongue so deeply that I had to get a new one: I came so close to saying that modalism and trinity are both in the Bible - you can have it any which way you want it, because a big book that says so many different things can be like Paul, you know, all things to all people.
Oh dear me (not "deer meat," that's different)
I would have then been asked to explain (after the gasps, of course). I would have had to say that I removed my gospel filter and read the blooming book - then I didn't go and read Matthew Henry after that. No mam, I read Bart D. and Sam H, among myriad others. I now see that the good ol' book gots lots of problems (change your inner voice to read that line, place emphasis on "lots"). I don't think it's quite the rule of faith it should be and... deep breath... and besides, evolution is as established as NaCl being table salt, and I don't think that G JC x 3 is really good philosophy or algebra. Sigh... breath... clutch tightly to chair arm...
Then I would have to say incredulity doesn't do it for me anymore. Then they would ask me to explain - and I would say something like: "You know... like saying: 'Well, there's just got to be more than this!?!' or 'All this stuff couldn't just have happened!?!'" I don't like that - it is considered a fallacy I believe, at least I think - I've read so much that my head may explode. But it's kind of like infinite regress - the thing you asked when you reasoned as a child: "Well, dufazoid, who created God?"
Cliché number 413: Houston we have problems. They would not have been able to see it They would have been floored. It's one thing not to believe "right," it's quite another to not believe at all. The dam would have burst, my mother would have fainted, my children would have cried, etc. etc....
Dude, snap out of it. We're losing him! Liniasmax, wake up!!!
OK...
Therein lies the dilemma... Did I mention that I really love you guys? Anyway, the dilemma is that this is the tribe and I chose to be in it. Many people rely on me, whatever that may mean ... My wife is right that it would not be fair to just BOOM BABY! come right out and end it. I see her point, but I want to... then again I believe I need to... well, I should just...OH GOSH DOG!!!! It's all so difficult, because the...
... problem is - I ain't never been down this road before. The road has a fork at this stop sign, but I see another one up by that apple orchard. Personally, I'd rather just move to the beach and start over, but we have a lot invested in this superstition and in this area. Those around me cannot be reached with my rationale because they are still doing what I did: multiple layers of reality shifting based on decades of interpreting the world through the lens of faith - you know, starting at the point of the Bible being true and God being real and then going from there - for year upon year. That is impenetrable until something springs up from within...
... Then like wells of living water you see that this life is wonderful and God isn't there. After you mourn, you leap for joy in your newfound freedom to be human and love others, and raise your family, and buy a damn expensive hybrid car. I said damn...
So back where I started from - maybe soon I can be more vocal. I think my wife is slowly coming around. She always thought God hated her and of course I would defend Him, and say of course not. Now I say "No He doesn't - He doesn't exist." That makes her ill with me, but not for long. I really think she kind of likes the idea that I love her because I love her and I promised to love her, so I will keep the promise because it's my promise and because I love her (yeah baby). It makes it more real - I mean, come on, I don't want you to feel obligated to love me just because you got a mansion in Glory... Hello...
I'm like my cat - screw Science Diet, I want the Purina.
Thanks for reading - life is complex, ain't it?
"...It's one thing not to believe "right," it's quite another to not believe at all. The dam would have burst, my mother would have fainted, my children would have cried, etc. etc....
Therein lies the dilemma. Anyway, the dilemma is that this is the tribe and I chose to be in it. Many people rely on me, whatever that may mean..."
The only person or group of people a person might owe lifelong allegiance to is someone who's agreed to die when you die. But that's just my opinion. I wouldn't have pulled a Socrates and drunk the hemlock just to be a team player, or out of a sense of having to take the bad with the good in the society that I'm part and parcel with. I'd have taken the offered jailbreak... Call me a wuss.
There is a whole section at the Ex-Christian (with a hyphen, note) site devoted to coming out, and how that works. Maybe someone oughtta write a big compilation of exit strategies, say 12 of them, one for every sign of the zodiac, and a person who doesn't want to kick the struts out from underneath the feet of his/her family or tribe can pick the one that looks like it might cause the least upset for his/her circumstances.
They will see it eventually in any case, that you have turned a page. There will be "soft spots" in various conversations and interactions with the others, that they will return to over and over, just to check to see if the same soft spot is still there in the same place. Which it will be. They'll want and expect their Xtian strokes from you at key moments and will consistently come up empty. It will be clear to them that you will keep community with them, but not to the extent of re-alighting on the same piece of flypaper they're still stuck to.
Like the feller says, the only way around it is straight through it. But I feel for ya, Liniasmax; I really do.
Just try showing doubt around ex christians or atheists about their beliefs, and they have them, and see how well you are treated.
I was raised by what you might have called atheist hippies who developed their ideas in the sixties.
All open and freethinking and all.
Until they see you are having serious doubts about their views.
There there is hell to pay.
I'm not sure if it was a wise man...or a not so wise man, who said: "If you see a fork in the road...TAKE it!"
Why that must have just been hell on earth! How did you ever survive? All that curiostity, inquiry, and thinking must have been a bitch.
Thank Gord you've found a closed-minded dead-god cult to do your thinking for you.
Like eel_shepherd said, I feel for you. My wife and best friend are the only ones that know for certain where I stand. Although eel_shepherd is right, because everyone else is starting to pick-up through the "soft-spots," the lack of church attendance, and the fact that I don't mindlessly repeat the classic lines of rote memorization of the christian insanity. The thought of chiming in with "gawd bless you" or "amen" or any other nonsense makes me ill.
I hid my atheism and doubt for years...I still went to church, etc. etc. The worst thing was being forced to say prayer at church (and sometimes at home). That's when the hypocrisy of my position really weighed me down. I'd get so angry at myself for my cowardice (still do), and then I'd feel depressed because I was sure there was no way out.
It was only in December of last year that I decided to stop pretending. No more church (the BEST decision I've ever made...it's all such a downer and waste of time), no more prayers. My family hardly ever broaches religion, but when they do, I don't get angry. I just try to show them their insanity by bringing up inconsistencies, because for every thing the bible says is one way, there's another verse that says the opposite. This is a powerful weapon, and an instant conversation stopper.
My parents are uber-depressed because they are sure that I'm doomed to hell for not going to church. My wife thinks it's just a rebellion phase that will pass.
They're both wrong.
Good luck to you. Keep us posted.
Just try showing doubt around ex christians or atheists about their beliefs, and they have them, and see how well you are treated.
I was raised by what you might have called atheist hippies who developed their ideas in the sixties.
All open and freethinking and all.
Until they see you are having serious doubts about their views.
"
You are correct. That is exactly what happens with groups. Groups, like religions, have ideology. Beliefs. If you announce that you reject a group's beliefs, you've separated yourself from them. It takes courage, doesn't it?
As I continue to deconvert, I am better able to handle something called "moral autonomy." That means you don't have to submerge yourself into a different groupthink, just because you left one.
Deconvert, yes. Deconvert from supernaturalism, deconvert from moral relativism, deconvert from the belief that Might Makes Right. That means you are RESPONSIBLE. You have to stop making yourself the victim of the "mean old group."
Stop worrying about those mean old atheists, and start fighting.
That particular saying is the work of the eminently quotable Yogi Berra. :-)
Religion is like the Hotel California. "You can check out any time you like but you can never leave." I am the rare exception only through a perfect storm of events over a period of several years did I successfully de-convert. May a perfect storm rescue you too.
(This get's them every time! the fundies)
Tell them, we now know through the invention of the microscope,(around 1600's) that diseases are caused by bacteria, germs, and viruses, not by evil spirits and demons. Most will have to agree, although the hard-core xtian will say that Satan causes diseases, until preachers quit spreading lies for money, people will refuse to believe the truth of reality.
Roger, A/A
"Just try showing doubt around ex christians or atheists about their beliefs, and they have them, and see how well you are treated."
.............
"Until they see you are having serious doubts about their views."
What beliefs do I hold that you can doubt? If you are like some people I know, you will assume that you know what I believe and attack those beliefs, but you will be shooting at the wrong target.
Can't say I know what I'll tell my boys if they ever ask me about these things of life and beyond. I can't lie about what I'm pretty sure is the truth of the universe, even though it would be much easier and comforting to spout the calming words passed through the milennia. Hmm, what to do?... I guess, and I quote, when I see that fork in the road, I'll take it. LOL In the meantime, can't we all just get along? (I'm quoting again. Ooh, I'm getting good at this!) Sometimes, in spite of my certainty that religion is a charade, I think that maybe we NEED it to control the masses. I mean, if there are NO consequences for me to live exactly as I please, then why notdo just that? But then I think, "Dang, how many millions have been KILLED for religion? Get rid of it, the sooner the better!" And then I think, "No, society let loose would really run amok!" But then again, has it not already run amok? Who knows? I kinda get the feeling that we would figure out a way to wage war and kill each other with or without Xtrianity,Islam, Buddhism, Hare Krishnas, Bald Krishnas, etc. Maybe John Lennon said it best: "All you need is love..." But didn't he also say "Happiness is a warm gun?" Maybe we should love all we can, but all we get is this one chance at life, so maybe we need to pack some heat, as well. Hmm, it just gets more and more confusing. Here we go round the Mulberry Bush, and I've not answered a thing! Except that I feel for you guys having to rip your hearts to pieces to figure out what you believe thanks to this propaganda machine that begins from birth. I wonder why I was never converted? Really, I'm quite gullible. Strange.
Thanks for the stories, Linias.
p.s. Hey, Linias, yesterday I saw a real rope. wink, wink