Hey Lorena,

emotional hurts are the REAL hurts, if you ask me. There are various ways of alleviating such hurts. Consulting christian fundamentalists is probabaly not the best one... Well, at least these people practice what they preach. Who died? I'm sorry.

Evangelicals are like the Terminator: they can't be bargained with, they sure as hell can't be reasoned with, and they are totally impervious to love, empathy, or logic. And they absolutely will never stop, ever, until you are a joyless, loveless, brainwashed moron like them (Or until you tell them to shut up).

Yeah he's a fundy wackjob, he came over to my blog and misconstrued everything that I had written down, I deleted everything that he said too...lol He's mentally ill and it painly showed. When we show them how completely insane they are, they go berserk. TC, Ben

One of my good friends committed suicide last year and the rhetoric my mom was saying in the midst of my sorrow had no purpose but to make me feel worse about it. She was telling me about how people who commit suicide don't get to go to heaven and that this person who meant so much to me was in hell.

In my 18 years on this planet I haven't heard anything more hateful and insulting.

You're absolutely right Lorena, the religious afterlife crap that fundies shove down your throat when something tragic happens doesn't alleviate sadness.

It seems that these religious have some long teeth and long fingernails that look like claws.

I was thinking that these mean individuals go around telling people rude stuff (you're a sinner, you're bitter) in order to convert then to christ.

The scary thing is that they succeed. I know they told me things like that for years and, instead of rushing out the door, I internalized their comments, felt awful about myself, and thought myself guilty and in need of redemption.

Now after a year of non-christianity, I am alert enough to understand how hateful and rude they are.

Christianity was invented to tell people that they are going to be ok and alright, no matter what the circumstances happen to be. In other words, lets say someone gets cancer and is going to die, then a Christian will come along and say "Ohh lucky you, you'll soon be with the Lord, what a blessing!" Jesus loves you!

Or you're laying on the railroad tracks with your legs cut off and a christain walks up and says, invite jesus into your heart, you'll be ok.

The old worn-out Christian cliche`s, it's like they have taken over for their god and are now their god's direct spokesman, they like to think, that they are relaying sympathy and compassion not from them, but from a higher authority in which they believe.

Christians are like a coo-coo clock, and when the bird comes out, the Christian spews their memorized cliche`s and then quickly goes back into their self-righteous box.

Can anyone imagine what it was like 2000 years ago? People all around would jump out from a corner and shout!!!
Are you saved? You need to be born again! God is real! Jesus loves you! God bless you! I'll pray for you! All you need is a little faith! You have been deceived by the devil! Without god, you have nothing! Everyone believes in something! Satan has blinded you to the truth! The fool sayeth in his heart there is no god! You need to be washed in the blood of the lamb! You're running away from god! If there is no god, how did we get here? What happened in your life that made you hate god? You are going to hell! Without faith, you cannot understand god's word! You were not a real/true christian! Without god/jesus, life has no meaning! God is the final judge! Get right with god! Ye need to be saved! Seek ye the kingdom of god! Invite god/jesus into your heart! My heart crys out for your soul! Blessed are those that seek jesus! I'll lift your name up in prayer! Praise his holy name! A miracle is about to happen! You have a bitter heart! Let god/jesus heal your heart!

These 2000 year old worn out
phrases that chrustians use, gives them a false feeling of spiritual supremacy, and people that use them regularly, like preachers and politicians, know that christain's accept these 2000 year old cliche`s as pure fact and have been sent down from heaven above with god's holy blessing for them to use and to cast away devils and unclean spirits and are used to perceive them in a light of being saved and a real/true christain, their words are backed by god and have his stamp of approval.

Cliche's are the christian's trade-mark and they say them to tell you that they themselves are going to heaven, but you, most likely are going to hell, like this excludes you, and I am special and I'm being blessed by god, but you are not and you are somehow less than me, a christian!

A quote from Dano,

"they think we have just been stewing in our disbelief, because no one of THEIR caliber has ever come by here, someone with THEIR credentials, someone who really knows what Jesus taught about love, etc."

Christains have been TOLD that they have been annointed by their god, a great commission, to spread the gospel of jesus and those shallow cliche's, whether any of it pretains to truth or not, or to any basis or fact, it gives them, they think, some form of righteous power, they think that they have suddenly acquired new found spiritual knowledge only acessable to them, by inviting god/jesus into their hearts, so they have fervently been told.

So we've all heard those christian cliche's so many times over and over and there is nowhere in the USA that anyone has not heard those christian cliche's millions of times each, and yet they keep bouncing those stupid cliche's off of everyone. It's like every person you see, has some kind of religious agenda and a cliche` to bounce off of you, they are testing the waters to see how you respond to their cliche's, so that they can judge you, in their mind, subconsciously.

Here we are in 2006 and people still use and believe the foolish nonsense cliche's and phrases, 2000 years later, and we drive automobiles all over the US, and in buses and trains and fly airplanes, have TV and have modern conveniences, and we still have to hear some jackass spout out a 2000 year old useless cliche.

When people spout out those worn out christian cliche's, it exposes their lack of intellectual honesty.

I've been there and done that, and I regret having fell for all that nonsense myself and so now, I am so tired of hearing those ridiclous, shallow and meaningless, christian cliche's! I think it leads to religious perversion.

As time goes by almost everything about christianity offends me!

1)rewards and social classes in heaven.
2)eternal/everlasting torment for temporal fallen beings.
3)One kid/person survives a disease or accident & fundies say its a miracle,...how CRUEL can you get!(what about all the others who don't,...god does'nt care about them?
4)god,...demands all the world to choose correctly one messiah out of over 20 others,and hundreds of religions,...leaving the eternal destiny of a fallen human race to us? That makes god out to be a moron! etc,.,.etc,..I could list 50 more offensive doctrines of churchianity.

*If there is a God ,..He must be very offended at how he is protrayed by christians,.....of course would'nt he be above such a simple emotion?,...duh? (Even that is offensive!)

Those cliche comments from Christians have no purpose but to help them. Spouting dumb epithets is to make them look like better Christians. If someone actually says that to you and truly were trying to help, they are misconstruing your belief system. It's hard to tell sometimes.

But if there were a god who rewarded people for reminding you that a loved one was in hell, she would be a real bitch.

"4)god,...demands all the world to choose correctly one messiah out of over 20 others,and hundreds of religions,...leaving the eternal destiny of a fallen human race to us?"

Okay, not to derail the conversation here, but this is something that I just don't get about Christians. They claim that you cannot save yourself, only Jesus can save you. But if you don't choose to accept Jesus, you're doomed. Excuse me, but isn't that saving yourself through the act of choosing? If you really and truly could not save yourself, Jesus would be the one doing the choosing. Christians are quick to point out that you're sending yourself to eternal damnation, how come it doesn't work both ways?

Back on topic, it does tend to be the trend for Christians to kick you when you're down. The church and bible teach you to hate yourself as a human being, and the only way they can make themselves feel better even for a moment is to shoot somebody else down. Pathetic.

It's so obvious that Mice have far more intelligence than a christian will ever have.

Religious Cliche's are so relative. After taking a chest x-ray on a very dear woman who was three days removed from open heart surgery, I commented on how well she looked so soon into her recovery. She came back with the old standard, "Oh the Lord has blessed me in so many ways." Immediately the wheels in my Atheist xray tech head started spinning. I was thinking to myself if the Lord had blessed her so much, why the fuck did he give her heart disease in the first place?
When my agnostic father needed valve replacement surgery he wasn't feeling quite so blessed. He was thankful that man had evolved to the point of being able to surgically open chest cavities and replace heart valves, but he was other wise pretty bitter. That operation fucked up a whole summer of his life.
I guess the whole religion thing makes belivers always see the glass of life as half full. I guess you can't fault them for that even if they are completely dillusional.

Steve wrote:



"Can anyone imagine what it was like 2000 years ago? People all around would jump out from a corner and shout!!!
Are you saved? You need to be born again! God is real! Jesus loves you! God bless you! I'll pray for you! All you need is a little faith! You have been deceived by the devil! Without god, you have nothing! Everyone believes in something! Satan has blinded you to the truth! The fool sayeth in his heart there is no god! You need to be washed in the blood of the lamb! You're running away from god! If there is no god, how did we get here? What happened in your life that made you hate god? You are going to hell! Without faith, you cannot understand god's word! You were not a real/true christian! Without god/jesus, life has no meaning! God is the final judge! Get right with god! Ye need to be saved! Seek ye the kingdom of god! Invite god/jesus into your heart! My heart crys out for your soul! Blessed are those that seek jesus! I'll lift your name up in prayer! Praise his holy name! A miracle is about to happen! You have a bitter heart! Let god/jesus heal your heart!"




Thank you for making me laugh, very funny! (-:

This rminds me of a documentary I once saw. I foget weather it was chimps or orangutans, might have been both. Anyway, the whole documentary was to test weather or not apes are "Contious". "Concious", by the definition of that documentary anyway, was defined as "being aware THAT you are thinking, aware of your oun thoughts". They tested this basically by putting the apes few various tests to see weather or not the ape could put itself in someone else's shoes, if it could figure out, say, that a human needs to have the bucket from its head removed before it can see, or weather the ape knows wheather or not someone else knows something he knows.

What I found interesting was that my brother would fail some of these tests.

We were both raised catholic (Althoutgh neither of my parents are fanatics). I'm an Atheist/Darwinian, whereas he's a semi-fanatic. The first time we kicked him out of the house we removed both religious graphiti and porn mag cutouts from the same walls in his room. He's a total hypocrite, and I honestly think, to him, other people are just cardboard cutout things that walk and talk and sometimes give him money. He doesn't get that other people have probloms or points of view exist other than his. He's also a "Victim", he blames everyone but himself for all his probloms, including his oun actions.

(my apologies to anyone who finds my ranting about him boring. If you want me to shut up about him just say.)

As reguards to your loss, well, it's entirely possible that YOU suffer way more than they are. Therefore, YOU're the one who needs sympathy. I know what that's like.

As for the "Anonymous" person who said her gang-raped freind was "fine", I wonder weather her rapists paid her 50 silver pieces and then married her (Dt 22;28)

I think the mice stay close by so the have first dibs on a munching on the corpse when the critter in pain finally dies.

I don't think christians need to stay close, they already stole the persons' life before they died.

Yo, I can sorta know what you meant, when Christians just throw instant cliche they armed themselves with, and probably used plenty of times. Much so, they don't say much very original, and in my experience, it seems that most Christians seem to be the least understanding or empathetic when it comes to human pain, because they seem to be able to be numb to such emotional passions with the escapism philosophy of "disregarding the flesh." I've been a Christian before, and it's comforting to kno that there are people out there who question the religion too.

Everything said above is absolutely true. When I was a Christian I was treated like I was sinning when I told another Christian I was sad and depressed. In fact, according to the catholic encyclopedia, "despair" is labeled a mortal sin!!Check out this load:

Taken from the Catholic encyclopedia:

"Despair, ethically regarded, is the voluntary and complete abandonment of all hope of saving one's soul and of having the means required for that end. It is not a passive state of mind: on the contrary it involves a positive act of the will by which a person deliberately gives over any expectation of ever reaching eternal life. There is presupposed an intervention of the intellect in virtue of which one comes to decide definitely that salvation is impossible. This last is motived by the persuasion either that the individual's sins are too great to be forgiven or that it is too hard for human nature to cooperate with the grace of God or that Almighty God is unwilling to aid the weakness or pardon the offenses of his creatures, etc.

It is obvious that a mere anxiety, no matter how acute, as to the hereafter is not to be identified with despair. This excessive fear is usually a negative condition of soul and adequately discernible from the positive elements which clearly mark the vice which we call despair. The pusillanimous person has not so much relinquished trust in God as he is unduly terrified at the spectacle of his own shortcomings of incapacity.

The sin of despair may sometimes, although not necessarily, contain the added malice of heresy in so far as it implies an assent to a proposition which is against faith, e.g. that God has no mind to supply us with what is needful for salvation.

Despair as such and as distinguished from a certain difference, sinking of the heart, or overweening dread is always a mortal sin. The reason is that it contravenes with a special directness certain attributes of Almighty God, such as His goodness, mercy, and faith-keeping. To be sure despair is not the worst sin conceivable: that evil primacy is held by the direct and explicit hatred of God; neither is it as great as sins against faith like formal heresy or apostasy. Still its power for working harm in the human soul is fundamentally far greater than other sins inasmuch as it cuts off the way of escape and those who fall under its spell are frequently, as a matter of fact, found to surrender themselves unreservedly to all sorts of sinful indulgence"

Wow you people are bitter. If religion means as little to you as you seem to say then why do you spend so much time talking about it? Don't you have better things to do with your lives? Or do you all have to band together and constantly remind yourselves why religion is bad least you forget so easily? If religion truly has scarred you so much move on and quit thinking about it. That by the way is rational thought not "christian rethoric" as you call it. And I find free_deist's comment to be rather closeminded and harsh. I am not a joyless, loveless, brainwashed moron. Try to get out of you tiny box every now and then and attempt to meet some real people, not the ones you've invented in your mind. You might find they are different than the pathetic view your hardened heart has given you.

Only a low-down fundy christian would use words like bitter and hardened heart.

If you're so wonderfully happy what the hell are you doing on this website telling us how to live?
Don't you know that you will go straight to hell for associating with us sinners?

Get on your damned knees right now and ask god to forgive you, before he strikes you dead with a bolt of lightning and never come back to this website again.

My my my a nasty one aren't you? I have to say i frequently associate with "sinners" as you call them. Many of my good friends are sinners as you so call them. And why am i denied the right to express my opinion on a website? You people seem to call christians loveless and not compassionate, but you don't seem to be very nice yourself. I'm not feelin the love people. All the things you accuse christians of you seem to fail in yourselves. And I seem to recall that Jesus spent most oh his time with the so called low down of society. He ate dinner with "sinners" and prostitutes and all manner of those looked down on. You should look into a persons religion before you open your mouth and insult them. Evidently your I.Q. could be counted on one hand, judging you can count that high.

Jwheezy, a lot of people here HAVE been consistently hurt by Christians. Maybe we do have a little bit of bitterness to work out, and this web site exists for that purpose. It does NOT exist for the purpose of allowing Christians to come here and make fun of us again.

I assume you are a Christian (If you are not, I apologize).

Imagine living in a world in which a belief contrary to your own was the rule. Imagine constantly suffering from gentle social oppression - it is not overt, it is just like being slowly beaten to death with a velvet cushion. If you complain, people call you a bad person. Everybody is a part of the conspiracy, most of them without even realizing it. The government uses it to make decisions you do not support but are forced to accept. People neither understand nor respect your beliefs, instead you are commonly considered less of a person because of it. Popular media constantly glorify the dominant system. The dominant system also constantly complains that the minorities it oppresses threaten to overthrow it - of which there is, in fact, not the slightest chance. Can you imagine that?

Now imagine being painfully aware that this dominant system is a crock of shit. It manages to be obscene, ridiculous, insidious and absurdly obvious all at once. It has poisoned more lives than any other thing since the world began, and yet people often love it more than they love their own children. It claims to be the ultimate good, while all the evidence points to the exactly opposite direction. It suppresses the expression of truly good things, and to add insult to injury it deigns to take credit for the good things that DO manage to make it through.

Do you have ANY idea what it is like to have to live in a world in which the BAD GUYS WON? It´s true. The villains won, and once they had secured their victory, they stated that they had been the good guys all along.

So if we get just a little... visceral in our complaints... please forgive us. You people are supposed to be good at forgiving.

And if you don´t want to, please have the good taste to fuck off and die.

Jwheezy said:
"I am not a joyless, loveless, brainwashed moron."

Lorena said:

Geez! I could swear that when I was reading your post, I thought a moron had written it.

You definitely fit my stereotype of a christian. I'll give you that.

As for writing about how much the church hurt us, it is called "venting" you moron, and it helps us to get over the shit we caught when we were christians.

But, how can you understand that? You are just another insensitive--ignorant--christian.

Jwheezy,

Christians are supposed to forgive, so it is OK if non-christians verbally abuse you and belittle you. Didn't you know that? They are enlightened and Christians are stupid. They can be good people without Christ, as evidenced by there flaming hot posts and venomous words.

They post articles and tesimonies about wayward Christians, who represent a very small percentage of the overall Christian population, and then think that all Christians fit the same mold. One pastor sexually assulted an underage girl, therefore all pastors are pedophiles. One member of a church had an affair with another church member, therefore all Christians are sexual deviants and liars. See how that works.

Maybe it works the other way.
Fidel Castro is an atheist, so I guess all atheists are also communists. Sir Ian McKellen is an atheist, so I guess al atheists are gay.

Let's see how these guys feel about gross generalizations.

Wayne

Jwheezy:

Thank you for proving to me that at least some Evangelicals are brainless, loveless, joyless, brainwashed assholes. Then again, what do you expect from people like you? Closing your mind is the only thing that most of your ilk will ever be good at. For the most part, Evangelicals are some of the most judgmental, self-righteous, reason-lacking, heartless, and empathy lacking people on the face of the Earth.

Why does religion mean so much to us? Because we're recovering brainwashed fundies...not unlike the recovering alcoholic that can't stop thinking about going to the bar, the crack addict that can't stop thinking about shooting up, or the shop-aholic that is despearte to go to a mall.

I'd rather think for myself than be like you and live my life blindly kissing Biblegod's ass. I am a Deist...I do believe in a Higher Power, but it would be above human emotions, unlike the sky-fascist Biblegod. If there is a Creator, the tales of Biblegod are a slander to it.

And trust me, Jwheezy, I would know. Maybe not ALL fundies are brainwashed morons...but a good deal of them are. I don't know you, so I don't know what you're like. But, the ones that I personally knew were almost all loveless, joyless, and extremely judgmental...that's my personal tale with them.

Wayne said:
"They can be good people without Christ, as evidenced by there flaming hot posts and venomous words."

Lorena responds:Sure, we are like that. But we are not claiming to have been changed by Jesus. We are not claiming that we are the "loving" people of god.

Christians, however, make all those claims of holiness, transformation, and healing--all untrue.

Not only that, you come to this site to patronize us, berate us, and to disregard/deny our experience with christianity. That is not only mean, but it is also in complete contrast to what a person who claims to have been cleansed "by the blood of the lamb" should be like.

To Lorena,

I am sure you are a nice woman. And I am sure that you have had some tough experiences with Christians, I have too. But you do make a lot of generalizations about vast numbers of people you have never met. I did not deny that any of the testimonies on this site were false. I believe almost all of the ones I have read.

"Christians, however, make all those claims of holiness, transformation, and healing--all untrue."

You however have testified to the actions and motives of every Christian on the planet. I just think that is a little bold and brazen of you. I have met many women that are pro abortion. Does that mean they all are? I have read many accounts of women who have made false claims of rape. Does that mean all rape claims are false? Of course not. And I do not mean to make light of those scenarios. I think you see where I am going with this.

Wayne

Wayne:
"You however have testified to the actions and motives of every Christian on the planet. I just think that is a little bold and brazen of you."

Lorena:
Once again, you don't know me. I wouldn't be surprised if I had met 10,000 christians in my life--about 12 different churches of several denominations, of all sizes, at least three megachurches.

Patterns are very easy to notice--very easy. And I am not the only one saying the stuff--I have met about 400 people on different boards online--from all over the world--with very similar experiences.

I have every right and every authority to generalize about christians. You WILL NOT shame me for that.

I say shame on you for not having notice what the people you hang out with are like.

I say you start paying attention.

P.S. I never said "every christian in the planet." I speak of patterns.

Lorena,

"I have every right and every authority to generalize about christians. You WILL NOT shame me for that.

I say shame on you for not having notice what the people you hang out with are like."

You do have the "RIGHT" I suppose but I fail to see any authority you have. And you "shame" me for not having recognized what the people I hang with are like? Tell me, what are they like. What are they really like? That guy that loaned me his car for a week while mine was in the shop, what is he really like? And my friend who sat with me and my family while my father had surgery following a heart attack, what is he really like? Please tell me, I must know.

Listen Lorena, I am sorry you've had some bad experiences but to declare war on an entire group that you don't know is just stupid. You don't have to agree with the doctrine but to close yourself off emotionally to such a large portion of the population is foolish. you may be denying yourself some real fulfilling friendships.

Anyway, good luck.

Wayne

Wayne said.
But you do make a lot of generalizations about vast numbers of people you have never met.

What about the bible making generalizations like, all have sinned, and all have fallen short of the glory of god.

Can you prove all people have sinned, how about babies that lived a month and died, have they all sinned? The bible say they do!

How about people born deaf and blind, have they sinned?
Have they fallen short of the glory of God? The bible says they do!

Wayne can you prove any of the bibles generalizations to be true?

If you appose us making generalizations, yet you cannot prove any of the bible's generalizations, yet you would rather believe the bible, than to believe people living life in reality posting on here.

This plainly shows that you are a brainwashed fundy.

Wayne:
"Listen Lorena, I am sorry you've had some bad experiences but to declare war on an entire group that you don't know is just stupid. You don't have to agree with the doctrine but to close yourself off emotionally to such a large portion of the population is foolish. you may be denying yourself some real fulfilling friendships."


Lorena:
How nice of you huh? To call me foolish. How christian of you.

I am denying myself FULFILLING friendships--that's downright hilarious.

I have every right to declare war on whomever I want. And the very fact that you are so pissed off means that I am making waves! So kudos to me.

You don't need to wish me luck. My good luck started the day I walked away from church--with my head up and dusting my feet--leaving behind a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites such as you.

Wayne:
"Listen Lorena, I am sorry you've had some bad experiences but to declare war on an entire group that you don't know is just stupid. You don't have to agree with the doctrine but to close yourself off emotionally to such a large portion of the population is foolish. you may be denying yourself some real fulfilling friendships."


Lorena:
How nice of you huh? To call me foolish. How christian of you.

I am denying myself FULFILLING friendships--that's downright hilarious.

I have every right to declare war on whomever I want. And the very fact that you are so pissed off means that I am making waves! So kudos to me.

You don't need to wish me luck. My good luck started the day I walked away from church--with my head up and dusting my feet--leaving behind a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites such as you.

Lorena,

This is just getting tedious. Think whatever you want. I m eant no offense and was mearly trying to offer some advice or suggestions. Because I appear to be a Christian you will refuse to listen. That's tolorance for you. I could give you a 50 dollor bill and you'd bitch cause it was green.

Lorena:
How nice of you huh? To call me foolish. How christian of you.

If someone is acting foolish then what can I say. It is not un-Christian to point it out. I tried to be nice and resonable with you but you wanted to be advisarial. Too bad. Get some help from a theripist and again...good luck

Wayne

Yes, you are as obnoxious as it gets, Wayne.

What? You thought you would come here and I was going to end up agreeing with you? Get a life!

Yes, it is getting tedious. I belong here, you don't. So good bye. Go call one of the "meaninful friends" you have and leave me alone, you creep.

Wayne might be a little hurt to know that he's not the first christian, nor the last christian, to come here in the guise of trying to "help" one of us by assuming a patronizing and superior tone, and then ending with a dismissive "I'll pray for you," "You need help," or "You better turn around before it's too late" or some variation thereof.

No doubt Lorena has even more reason (as if she didn't have thousands of reasons already) that Wayne has given her to have nothing to do with christians and christianity.

Lorena, aren't you glad we are on the other side of the fence now? It feels so good to be sane.

Michelle Mybell

The primary mandate to all species is survive and reproduce, at the cost of any or all other species if necessary. If any species fails to do that, they disappear off the face of the earth. Many species including many species of men have done just that,

Loving everybody and everything ain't gonna accomplish that. Turning the other cheek ain't gonna accomplish that. Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, ain't gonna accomplish that.

We humans the smartest species on earth and we have the mandate to survive and replicate ourselves. That is how we got to the top of the food chain. By being smarter, sexier, and the most determined to survive.

At this point in the evolution of life on this planet we must realize that competing religions are the biggest threat to our species. The "My God is better than your God " mentality may just be the catalyst that kills us all.

Dan (Realist)

Let's not paint all christians with the same broad brush. I have met a few who were not "joyless, loveless, brainwashed morons" but were instead kind, loving people that anyone would be glad to call friends.

Invariably, these people do NOT wear their religion on their sleeves, they respect other's beliefs or lack of beliefs, and do not condescend to try to convert anyone or force others to abide by religious prescripts.

On the other hand, there are fundamentalists who are actively working – through the political system, the courts, and the schools - to impose their beliefs and practices on all of us. This ilk probably constitutes less than a quarter of all the people who label themselves as Christians. (I base this estimate on the recent Gallup and Newsweek polls which show that only about 29 percent of self-labeled Christians claim the bible is the "inerrant word of god," the first requirement of fundamentalism, and, thankfully, not all fundamentalists are political bullies.) Still, the bullies do exert a lot of power in our society, far beyond what is justified by their numbers, and they are a threat.

I urge my fellow freethinkers to keep this distinction in mind. While christianity is a deluded belief system that can cause many problems, individual christians are not the enemy. BUT, there are those, i.e., those psuhy fundies, against whom we must remain vigilant.

Wayne: "Christians are supposed to forgive, so it is OK if non-christians verbally abuse you and belittle you. Didn't you know that?"

WM: Technically, that would be exactly what Jesus said on numerous occasions. Matt 5:39: "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

However, I'll have to begrudgingly agree with Wayne here. That is an asinine peice of advice, unless you like being slapped.

Wayne: "They (atheists) are enlightened... They can be good people without Christ, as evidenced by there flaming hot posts and venomous words."

Flaming hot posts and venomous words? Paul the Apostle said, "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed."— 1 Corinthians 16:22. "...those who practice such things are worthy of death..."— Romans 1:32. Jesus said, "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine... mdash; Matt 7:6.

Such nice words, aren't they!

Wayne: "They post articles and tesimonies about wayward Christians, who represent a very small percentage of the overall Christian population..."

WM: Ah, no Wayne, that is a gross generalization on your part. What are posted are news articles about perverted criminals who are wearing the cloak of pastoral leadership, many getting away with their criminal behavior for years and years. Further, there has not been only one story, but rather, dozens and dozens of stories are posted here. In fact, a half-a-dozen a week could be posted, but that would get monotonous—the site could be overtaken by all of stories of perverse pastors out there. BTW, just curious, but where exactly did you get your statistics for "a very small percentage?" What is that percentage, exactly? 20%? 10%? 2%? Then, answer me this: What percentage of those pastors who are secretly criminals eventually get caught, on the average? How many are never caught? And at what point should I be concerned that there is any percentage of so-called spirit-filled, holy-ghost-led, super-pastors, who are in reality, criminals? And why is it that the Holy Spirit doesn't warn the sheep that are being victimized by these wolves? I mean, since the pastor is a criminal, he's not a real Christian™, but surely someone in the flock is a truly born-again™, filled with the power of Almighty God, right?

Wayne: "Maybe it works the other way. Fidel Castro is an atheist, so I guess all atheists are also communists. Sir Ian McKellen is an atheist, so I guess al atheists are gay."

WM: Here we agree completely. Just because someone is an atheist, it doesn't guarantee acceptable or unacceptable behavior. You could have either extreme from an atheist. Likewise, just because someone is a born-again Christian, it doesn't mean the person behaves one iota better than anyone else. Atheists, however, do not claim to have a magical, mystical, holy Sprite (sp intentional) bubbling up within then and sanctifying them. Apparently the only thing Cristians like Wayne can honestly claim to possess is a self-applauding self-righteousness.

Wayne: "Let's see how these guys feel about gross generalizations."

WM: And a nanny-nanny pooh-pooh to you too.


Naaaa.

"Wow you people are bitter. If religion means as little to you as you seem to say then why do you spend so much time talking about it?"

I used to believe in the Tooth Fairy, too. And Santa. And Bugs Bunny. But i don't bother tlking on the Internet about Santa.

What's the difference? Well, no one is dying because of Santa or the Tooth Fairy. I reffer, of course, to the War On Terror, amongst other things. No one bothers me in the street or comes to my door about the Tooth Fairy. There aren't that many cults whose leader claims to be Bugs Bunny. Don't even get me started with HISTORY...

"Don't you have better things to do with your lives? Or do you all have to band together and constantly remind yourselves why religion is bad least you forget so easily? If religion truly has scarred you so much"

Here we go, always assuming we were all 'Hurt'. That's the ONLY possible reason anyone could possibly believe that the world revolves around the sun, Because we were "Hurt". I myself simply FIGURED IT OUT for myself. I've been an Atheist for years, but I never actually became anti-religous untill I found out that some of the hypocracy and cruelty etc is withing the Bible itself (One of my personal favourites is DT 22;28, look it up). Although, I did begin to suspect that religion was actually a bad thing when my brother went nuts (he was on marajuana and developed schitzophrenia, and was spouting religious gibberish.) but I wasn't "hurt" by that because he was ALWAYS an asshole.

"move on and quit thinking about it. That by the way is rational thought not "christian rethoric" as you call it. And I find free_deist's comment to be rather closeminded and harsh. I am not a joyless, loveless, brainwashed moron."

Okay, I grant you that one. No all Christians are Carrie's mother. Not all are even Ned Flanders. But frankly even Ned I wouldn't want to spend too much time with.

"Try to get out of you tiny box every now and then and attempt to meet some real people,"

Most of the people I know are Christians. You didn't think we were all RAISED Atheist, did you? Look at the name of the bloody websight! (Exmuslims, Exjews etc are welcome too)

" not the ones you've invented in your mind. You might find they are different than the pathetic view your hardened heart has given you.

"I urge my fellow freethinkers to keep this distinction in mind. While christianity is a deluded belief system that can cause many problems, individual christians are not the enemy. BUT, there are those, i.e., those psuhy fundies, against whom we must remain vigilant."

Warren Jeffs:
"The arrest warrant for Warren Jeffs, president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has raised fears of a violent showdown between authorities and the volatile, 49-year-old leader reminiscent of the deadly 1993 standoff at Waco, Tex."

There is no test a follower can use, to check a religious leaders' instructions, especially if one claims they are a modern day prophet of god who speaks regularly to him.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2003-03-13/feature_2.html

"The number of members of the church is unknown due to the very closed nature of their religion; however, their population is estimated at between 6,000 to 10,000 in the twin communities of Colorado City, Mohave County, Arizona and Hildale, Washington County, Utah."

"Critics of this belief/lifestyle say that its practice leads unavoidably to bride shortages and likely to child marriages, incest, child abuse, and banishment of surplus boys."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints

There are people who have poor values, and live their lives accordingly. However, those who are leaders who can influence large numbers of people, educate them, and organize them to engage in bigotry, hatred, abuse, etc., are the ones who exponentially pose the greatest threat to society in general. The greater the number of people a person can influence, the greater the vigilance required by those of mainstream society to keep them in check with a nation's laws.

Webmaster,

Thanks for your reply. I did not agree with all your points but I do appreciate the fair and equal exchange. I have no problem with atheists' viewpoints or beliefs, what I have a problem with is the intolerance that ALL faiths share, be that a faith in a deity or a faith in nothing. Atheists claim to be freethinkers and tolerant of all but go nuts when confronted with a Christian. And Christians claim to love as Christ loved but judge and criticize non-Christians and even other branches of Christianity or people in their own church (e.g. evangelicals bashing Catholics, etc.).

What I want to know is how do we get along? How can a Christian present a point to an atheist without the atheist think they are being converted? I did not try to push my beliefs on Lorena yesterday. I just pointed out that it appeared that she was generalizing a bit. IN MY OPINION (let me emphasize that) Lorena looked not at what I was saying but rather only looked at WHO was saying it.

And how do Atheists get Christians to question their faith without the Christians thinking that they are being attacked by the enemy? Most Christians will say that the enemy is firing the fiery darts at them and ignore the content of what they are hearing. There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today. Why do we all assume such an aggressive stance when dealing with the other? I am just tired of the division. I’m tired of it in my church, I’m tired of it in my office, I’m tired of it in my city. Everyone preaches tolerance but no one practices it. Why is that? Please understand, I am guilty of it as well. But what is the solution? Any thoughts?

Finally, to Lorena, I did not mean to be adversarial with you yesterday, I was frustrated with our exchange but that is not an excuse for being a smart ass.

Wayne

Wayne,

You ask how you can have an interchange with an atheist.

Well, I am not an atheist. I believe in God. I just don't believe in bible-god.

You cannot have an interchange with me because all you are trying to do is convert me. What else would you be trying to do? You are obviously not trying to learn anything from me because your arguments were a personal attack and did not have any logic to them.

Everything you said I've already heard before. Not once, hundreds of times. There lies the main problem. I was a christian, a devoted one, for 18 years. I heard all the sermons, all the cliches, I went to hundreds of revival services, conferences, retreats, bible school classes. When I say I heard it all, you can trust me I have.

Not even once has a christian come to this website to say something mind buggling, new, or revealing. It is all the same. That's why I call it brain washing, because all christians do--as I used to--is to parrot worn-out formulas.

Also, your "well-meaning" comments just confirmed the main premise of my article. When the "formulas" don't work for a person--such as me--then it isn't the church's fault, heavens no. It must be that the person needs therapy, as you directed me to get, or the person is derailed, crazy, or demon possesed.

So you came here to say that not all christians are like that. True, it couldn't be more true. The ones I know are like that. You are another one. You've patronized me, minimized my experience, and called me a nut. Just because I disagree with you.

It will be difficult for you to "save" us, Wayne, because all the things you are telling we already told others when we believed like you do today. We even told the stuff to ourselves when we were trying to desperately hang on to a faith that had proven faulty.

Wayne said,

There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today.

Yet a lot wrong, does not keep you from continueing to believe the religious nonsense.

Yet, a lot wrong with christianity, is more than enough to keep us away from it and totally reject it!

We need proof that something is real, not faith, the word faith alone, is enough to convence you Wayne, that your religion is true.

Faith is a word like a carrot on a stick, it can never be reached nor obtained.

Faith does not exist, faith is only a word, not a commodity.

When people use words like faith, prayer, then we know that they have allowed another human being to doctrinate them, which is the same thing as brainwash them.

You have been brainwashed into the religious cult, because you were not born with such nonsense, you have allowed yourself to become less intelligent than you were before you became brainwashed.

Wayne you allowed this to happen, it was your doing!

We can see this, but you refuse to!

Lorena,

I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT YOU!!!!
I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT YOU!!!!

You do not want to be converted. You know it and I know it. I did not mean to patronize you. I have appologized several times. I will do it once more. "I am sorry. Please forgive me if I offended you." I really meant that. Really.

Now, I beleive everything you have said. I have read many of your posts and I do beleive that you have been mistreated by the church and your family and friends. All I tried to say was that you not paint all Christians with such a broad brush.

Do I think that you need therapy because you left Christianity? NO I DO NOT. Do I think you need therapy because you are nuts? NO I DO NOT. Do I think you are nuts at all? NO I DO NOT. There is a difference between being nuts and going nuts. I am sorry if I did not make that more clear. And I did not say that, or mean to say that, you were going nuts. I made a generalization that I shouldn't have.

Do I think that you need therapy because you have gone through a lot of trials? Yes. After reading your posts I beleive that ANYONE who went through what you went through would need a little help. I would myself if I endured what you did. A person can only take so much abuse before they reach maximum capacity. I understand that.

How many times do I need to extend the olive branch before you accept?

Wayne

I concur when people willingly surrender their born-with common sense for a 2000 year old belief, which cannot possibly be proved in any way shape or fashion for a promise that they will have in another world that cannot be proved, there is something missing in that person's mind.

Fred,

"There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today.

Yet a lot wrong, does not keep you from continueing to believe the religious nonsense."

I do beleive in Christ. but I do not always beleive what is preached by the church today. There is a lot wrong with this country but I still love it and stand by it. We should not forsake the foundation by which this country was founded just because those in control of it are screwing it up, should we? The basic foundation of what Christ laid down work. Even the Dali Lama (sp) said that Christianity would work if everyone followed the rules.

"We need proof that something is real, not faith,"

This one always gets me. Fred, you have faith in more than you know. There is little to no proof of many of the things that you would beleive. Well, I shouldn't make presume to know what you beleive. Let me say that it has been my experience that many atheists put their faith in "science". Many of the "TRUTHS" claimed by science are still just therory. Take black holes for instance, science tells us that a black hole is a collapsed star that has so much gravity that not even light can escape it. But all we have ever done is looked at black holes. We have never sent men to the outskirts of a black hole, we have never sent a probe into a black hole to retreive data. All we have done is looked at something for thousands of light years away. We used to think the earth was flat because when we "looked" out at the ocean we saw a straight line. Now we know better.

Or take primitve evolutions of early man. Science has uncovered skulls and bones of what they assume is the early stages of human evolution and has created therories of what they beleve they are. No definite proof has been established that shows us evovling from monkeys are anything else. Personally I think it is tottally probable that God "CREATED" evolution. That it may have been part of his plan.

Anyhow, the part of your post that says I have been brainwashed I think is just lazy on your part. No one is born knowing anything. Have you been brainwashed by the establishment because you were "taught" that the earth was round? Have you been in space to see it for yourself? That example may be a bit weak but hopefully you get my point. "WHATEVER" you beleive is because someone else has taughtit too you. I have looked at all the evidence in support of, and against Christianity. And I have made my choice. You may not agree with the choice, but that is not evidence that I have been brainwashed.

Peace to you

Wayne

Wayne,

You continue to patronize me. Let me explain.

You may have noticed already that I ain't stupid. I actually have a VERY high IQ.

DO YOU REALLY THINK I LEFT CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE A FEW FEEBLE, GULLIBLE, NAIVE PEOPLE OFFENDED ME?

NO. NO. NO. NO.

There are people like that everywhere! Absolutely everywhere.

In fact, my main claim against christianity is that they are JUST PEOPLE, not different from anyone else.

I left christianity because I came to understand that your holy book is full of folktales that, while beautiful, are not inspired by any god.

I do not believe Jesus was god, and I reject the code of morals that christianity upholds--such as those about gay’s and women’s rights.

I could write a book on reasons why I left the faith apart from the 10000 morons I met in church. Visit my blog and spend some time reading. But do not leave any messages because I’ll delete them.

I have been in therapy for a looong time. In fact, leaving christianity was a result of the emotional healing I reached. Being able to write about the stuff is also a sign of healing.

In fact, I believe most people that grace the churches with their presence on Sunday morning need therapy. Were they to do that, the churches would be empty.

I hope I make myself clear.

You need to stop apologizing, because you haven't done anything wrong.

You did exactly what your faith asks you to do, and said the exact thing your faith expects you to say—I used to do just that when I was a Christian.

You acted as a good "christian." Unfortunately, your belief system is illogical, and anytime you use it to the letter, you will end up offending somebody.

Don't worry. I am not offended. I am a happy ex-christian in therapy. I do not need your mercy or your concern. I am well on my way to a happy, fulfilled life.

Lorena,

I don't see how I am patronizing you. I guess our definitions of the word differ to a degree.

You keep talking about why you left and that I won't get you to convert. Never did I even try to do so. I feel like if I said the exact same things to but signed them "Carol the feminist" or "Shannon the atheist lesbian" that you would have responded totally different.

Bye.

Wayne

One must make a distinction between your normal, reasonable, lukewarm, nominal Christians, and the intolerant, hateful, angry, judgmental, snap-judgment, full-tilt-boogie Evangelicals. Note that I have not referred to "Christians," but "Evangelicals." Your average lukewarm/nominal Christian has more in common with us than their Evangelical counterparts. It is unfair, I agree, to see all Christians in the light of the hateful Evangelicals...it's no better than saying that all Germans were Nazis during World War II, or that thirty years ago, all Russians were Marxists bent on destroying capitalism and the West, or that everybody that is Islamic is a terrorist.

Most nominals are quite rational people, use their minds to solve things nearly always. Most nominals do not get hung up on what a person believes with regards to religion...many nominals see nothing wrong with people in differing faith traditions. For most nominals, church is a place you go for weddings, baptisms, funerals, Christmas and Easter...and for those that go to church every week, for most, it's just what you do every sunday before the NFL game or the NASCAR race comes on TV. Most nominals believe in science...they accept evolution, the Big Bang, people being born gay, an Earth several billions of years old, and will have no qualms about watching that History Channel special on Charles Darwin, or reading a National Geographic article. Most nominals aren't sexual prudes, and for those that are, it usually isn't because of religion...you'll find nominals reading Playboy or Hustler, watching porno DVDs with their spouse or themselves, and having sex. Some nominals are politically liberal...many probably voted for Kerry in 2004, are pro-choice, anti-Iraq War, anti-Bush, and are planning to vote Democratic in the elections this November. When something bad happens, most nominals do try to give a lending hand, and use the cliches sparingly. And, most nominals are loving, tolerant people, who do not hate gays, who do not hate those believe differently from them, who are not judgmental, who do not think that they have all the answers, who accept people for being different or believing different from them. Nominals realize that there is no system or set of beliefs that fits everybody.

Evangelicals, on the other hand, are a whole other beast. There may be some Evangelicals that have a loving heart and aren't super-judgmental and intolerant, but I have yet to meet one, and I've met hundreds of them. Reason is OK for fundies...so long as you don't rock the boat. Evangelicals are intolerant of other beliefs...they hate and make broad-brush generalizations about those that believe in other religions, and often, go after Christians in other denominations as well, especially Catholics (that nut Jack Chick anybody)? For most of the fundies I've met, science is bad, and to be avoided. No evolution, no Big Bang, none of that. Also, Evangelicals are never very understanding of people, due to how some have been brainwashed. When somebody has a problem, instead of trying to fix it, all they do is throw worn-out cliches at the problem. Many Evangelicals lack compassion and empathy for non-Evangelicals...trust me, I've seen it firsthand. Many Evangelicals get a rise out of bugging, bothering, and upseting non-Evangelicals. Instead of responding with love in life, at least some Evangelicals instead respond with hatred and anger, especially towards gays, but in effect to anybody that is not like them, including other Christians who are more tolerant, loving, rational and understanding than them.

I really don't have a problem with the nominals at all...hell, I'm friends with many of them. It's the Evangelicals, with their use of cliches over love, intolerance over love, cliches over understanding, and a cookie-cutter approach to a very complex Universe, that I do not like.

Wayne said: "I did not agree with all your points but I do appreciate the fair and equal exchange."

Ah, Wayne, that's the best answer you can give? I was quite specific in a number of points. Which one or ones do you not agree with, and why?

I think you confuse universal tolerance with tolerance within a narrow domain. What I mean is this: Would you tolerate an atheist coming into your home uninvited to argue with you about your theology, or anything else? Would you tolerate a Mormon, JW, a Oneness Christian, or a judgmental Independent Baptist coming into your home to argue with you?

Well perhaps you would tolerate that kind of insensitivity. Most people would find that type of behavior—barging into a someone's home to preach, teach, advise, etc.—as more than just a little rude.

The stated purpose of this website is to encourage those who have found Christianity to be a festering crock of dung. Since the purpose of this site is clearly stated, and Lorena is one of those who has swallowed her share of Christian defecation, enough to make her ill, and she is here for encouragement, how exactly are you fulfilling the stated purpose of this site—encouraging her?

You talk of tolerance? Do you mean Christians should be allowed to build churches of all descriptions on nearly every corner? Do you mean that Christians should be allowed any employment they are qualified for, throughout all society? Do mean that Christians should have entry to any higher schools of education they choose? Do you mean that Christians should be allowed to serve in political office? Wayne, I think there is a liberal dose of tolerance within Western society. Christians are not kept out of any part of our society. I think what you're talking about is having everyone love Christianity and just go along with whatever it does without making comments. Do you think we should tolerate violent Jihad by Islamics without comment? If not, why not? Would you quietly tolerate it if cars drove by your home, at all hours of the day and night, with stereos blaring so loudly that it shakes the windows of your home? It's only music after all. It's only sound. It's also annoying and rude. One car, no problem. 50 cars, and it quickly becomes intolerable. Many more than 50 Christians have dropped their load on this site. Tolerating my neighbor because he goes to church three times a week and invites me constantly, is one thing. Agreeing with him, and eventually telling him to stop inviting me, is not intolerance. Even telling him off is only letting him know that I don't appreciate the evangelical pushiness, that's all it is. What about the Christian tolerating my disinterest in religion and knocking it off when he's on my property or in my home?

You see, Wayne, there are probably thousands of Christian websites where Christians can tell each other how wonderful it is to be a Christian and how awful it is to be an atheist, but even one site that promises to assist people who are leaving Christianity is absolutely intolerable, isn't it? You want those who have left Christianity to tolerate Christianity, not only in deed, but in word, thought and emotion. I suggest you take your own advice and give Lorena the space she craves. Tolerate her apostasy. Leave her, and people like her, alone. Besides, is your God so weak that he/she/it can't influence Lorena without your help?

Think about it Wayne. Think about it.

Oh, and off topic: If you choose to continue posting, try something new. Try clicking on the radio button that is clearly labeled "Other." If you click the "Other" button you can type in your name (Wayne) and you won't show up as "Anonymous" on every post. Like most of the material on this site, it's right there in front of you. You just have to pay attention.

Wayne said,

"Take black holes for instance, science tells us that a black hole is a collapsed star that has so much gravity that not even light can escape it. But all we have ever done is looked at black holes. We have never sent men to the outskirts of a black hole, we have never sent a probe into a black hole to retreive data. All we have done is looked at something for thousands of light years away. We used to think the earth was flat because when we "looked" out at the ocean we saw a straight line. Now we know better."

Now we know better, but still there are those that should know better, but choose not to, like you Wayne, also a scientest may propose a theory that blackholes may exist, but we tend not to worship a theory. Like Jesus may have existed and therefore we hope he did, and we should direct our worship towards him.

Now having said all that, do you really believe there exists a god that created the whole universe in just six days, including over 125 billion galaxies with multitrillion stars and planets rotating around Suns, and the best solution that this god could come up with to save people from their sins that a god allowed to exist in the first place, by creating a evil angel, is by sending an angel to inseminate a virgin girl and then have him nailed to cross and have him murdered, because by ourselves we cannot save ouselves from our sins that this god allowed to happen in the first place.

Are you really this crass?
Are you really so desperate to believe in such a nonsense fairytale, do you have such low esteem that you allow someone who wrote about such foolishness over 2000 years ago, are you that willing or scared not to believe such nonsense?

Are you really living in that much fear?

Surely there's more to Wayne than that!

Do you really believe that there exist a god that ignorant?

Wm,

I didn’t answer your questions because they seemed rhetorical. According to your “World Religions Chart” I would bet that only a very small percentage of the nearly 2 billion that claim Christianity are represented on your site. And no, I don’t know how many pastors and ministers are secretly criminals and haven’t been discovered yet. Did you expect me to know that? I can’t read the future either or move small objects with my mind, just in case you had some other silly questions to ask.

This site has been developed with the intent of “supporting those who had shed Christianity”. I think that’s great. Whether or not I think it is right or wrong those who have left Christianity feel they need support and I am glad they feel like they have a place to go. But I have reread my posts and I can not see where I stated that Christianity is the only way, or that ex-Christians need to come back, or anything like that. Where did I say that? I don’t want to convert anyone. You all weighed the evidence and made your choice. Fine, good, end of story.

All I mean by tolerance is this. Many of the ex-ians on this site tote themselves as “freethinkers”. They have escaped the mind cult and freed their inner selves. But I fail to see how they act any different than the Christians they left behind. They complain that Christians are hate-filled and unloving, and then bash and slander a Christian when they wander onto this site. If I had portrayed myself as an atheist and told “someone” that it may be wrong for us to generalize Christians in a particular way it would have been met with thought and consideration. But because a Christian said it then we totally disregard the content and focus only on the messenger. This to me is the very embodiment of intolerance. How is it any different than any other sort of bigotry? Judge the outside, ignore the inside. Christians do this as well, all too often.

Wm: You see, Wayne, there are probably thousands of Christian websites where Christians can tell each other how wonderful it is to be a Christian and how awful it is to be an atheist, but even one site that promises to assist people who are leaving Christianity is absolutely intolerable, isn't it? You want those who have left Christianity to tolerate Christianity, not only in deed, but in word, thought and emotion. I suggest you take your own advice and give Lorena the space she craves. Tolerate her apostasy. Leave her, and people like her, alone. Besides, is your God so weak that he/she/it can't influence Lorena without your help?

Think about it Wayne. Think about it.

I have no problem with this site. Support each other all you need. Rally more to your cause. It really doesn’t bother me. That is the beauty of this country. We all can chose. I NEVER pushed Christ onto anyone. Like everyone else here I stated my OPINION; unlike everyone else I was met with opposition. I do not expect everyone to tolerate Christianity as you describe, I expect everyone to tolerate it the same way I am expected to tolerate heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, pro-lifers, pro-choicers, democrats, republicans, independents, blacks, whites , red, yellow, tall, short, fat, thin, smart, dumb, handicapped, young, old, citizens, immigrants, foreigners, illegal’s, etc…


Wm: "Like most of the material on this site, it's right there in front of you. You just have to pay attention."

Like everything else in the universe your point of veiw determines everything. Virtually nothing, outside of mathmatics maybe, is universally held as "truth" or "fact". Except maybe the "Other" button.

Wayne

Fred,

I can't sit here and explain the creation of the universe to you. I really don't know. I hope to find out one day. But explain to me how the "God Creation" theory is any more or less credible than the "Big Bang" theory. God creating the universe is absurd but the big bang makes perfect sense. Tell me if I have this right....

..."A long, long time ago there was a bunch of dust and gas just floating and then in an instant there was billions of galaxies with rotating solar systems and planetary bodies and comets and stars and everything came together perfectly in that perfect instant."

That sounds more Devine than the creation theory. I really have no idea how we got here. We both no what I believe the answer to be so I won’t bother sharing it.

You have called what I believe, or what you assume I believe, to be nonsense. I don’t see how it is any less logical then “we all evolved from the primordial ooze”; “that all life came from the same single celled organisms”. Can you add more credence to one theory or the other? Perhaps God INTENDED for us to evolve from the ooze. How about that?

Why is what you believe so much more logical than what I believe? How is your complete lack of knowledge about the universe any more credible than my complete lack of knowledge about the universe?

As far as you other questions I will not bother with a detailed answer. I am not afraid; I do not have low self-esteem. I have coped with ignorance the same way you have coped with yours: I found a solution that makes sense to me and I’m going with it. When you can prove the “Big Bang”, hand me a vile of the primordial ooze, or show me definitive proof that we evolved from dust with no Devine assistance, then, and only then, will you have any cause to tell me what I believe is wrong.

Wayne