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Exposing Christian Propaganda for What It Is
.: posted Monday, May 30, 2005 ::: by .:webmaster:. ::: EmailThis! »

sent in by Timotheus
email: elpoeta at dmailman dot com

During my time as a fundamentalist inerrantist christian, I subscribed to various apologetic newsletters, most of which I still continue to receive. Prior to the beginning of my journey to deconversion, I greatly enjoyed reading this material, and eagerly anticipated receiving and devouring each issue for the purpose of defending the faith. These collections of propaganda I have amassed include news journals from Koinonia House Ministries (Chuck Missler), Answers in Genesis (Ken Ham), Times Square Church Pulpit Series newsletters (David Wilkerson), and Harvest Ministries (Greg Laurie), to name a few.

At the time, I was unaware of any criticism of the ideas expressed in these mailings, and had no reason to doubt the truthfulness and accuracy of them. I truly believed that the holy spirit was working through these men to help equip christians to "be prepared to give an answer for the hope you have...." (1 peter 3:15) and "contend for the faith" (Jude 3).

As my research of christianity went deeper and deeper, I began to encounter huge problems (discrepancies, contradictions, absurdities, contrivances, widespread ambiguity, scientific impossibilities, and serious intellectual dishonesty). This, coupled with the wide range of differing beliefs I was seeing among supposed "spirit-filled" christians, marked the early stage of my downward spiral into disbelief.

Over time, after my repeated attempts to justify, rationalize, and harmonize the problems using all available resources (apologetic author's "solutions", commentaries, meetings with church elders, etc.) failed, I reluctantly began to seek answers from critical sources. At this point, I just wanted to get to the truth, so getting both sides of the issue seemed logical, even though I was warned to stick to christian writings. During this time, I was continually stressed mentally from the guilt that resulted from my disbelief, because we charismatic christians were warned continually from the pulpit that satan was always waiting to pounce on us, eager to take away our salvation, and that this type of doubting was one sure way to give him a firm foothold in our spiritual lives. Needless to say, it was hard to get any good sleep during this time. I often stayed up very late almost every night for months doing research.

This was an important crossroad in my life, for on one hand, my tireless quest for truth was clearly leading me away from christian beliefs, while at the same time I was still desperately looking for something...ANYTHING.... to replenish my crumbling faith, in which I had invested virtually everything.

Finally, after many months of serious analysis and with much reluctance, I allowed the tremendous weight of rational, logical thought and true biblical scholarship to come crashing down on my faith, and I deconverted. I could not, and would not allow myself to base my entire life on such a flimsy, uncertain and dishonest foundation.

Now I see christian apologetic writings as pure propoganda. I now can pick apart all of them and expose the deceit, useless circular reasoning and lack of honesty.

I have decided to do this on a regular basis. The following is a brief examination of one of the biggest manufacturers of christian propaganda today: Chuck Missler and Koinonia House Ministries.

Background

The following biography of Chuck Missler was taken from khouse.org , his ministry's own website.

Chuck and Nancy Missler (wife) were both raised in Southern California.

Chuck demonstrated an aptitude for technical interests as a youth. He became a ham radio operator at age nine and started piloting airplanes as a teenager. While still in high school, Chuck built a digital computer in the family garage.

His plans to pursue a doctorate in electrical engineering at Stanford University were interrupted when he received a Congressional appointment to the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis. Graduating with honors, Chuck took his commission in the Air Force. After completing flight training, he met and married Nancy. Chuck joined the Missile Program and eventually became Branch Chief of the Department of Guided Missiles.

Chuck made the transition from the military to the private sector when he became a systems engineer with TRW, a large aerospace firm. He then went on to serve as a senior analyst with a non-profit think tank where he conducted projects for the intelligence community and the Department of Defense. During that time, Chuck earned a master's degree in engineering at UCLA, supplementing previous graduate work in applied mathematics, advanced statistics and information sciences.

Recruited into senior management at the Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Michigan, Chuck established the first international computer network in 1966. He left Ford to start his own company, a computer network firm that was subsequently acquired by Automatic Data Processing (listed on the New York Stock Exchange) to become its Network Services Division.

Returning to California, Chuck found himself consulting, organizing corporate development deals, serving on the board of directors at several firms, and specializing in the rescuing of financially troubled technology companies. He brought several companies out of Chapter 11 and into profitable operation. Chuck thrived on this type of work.

As Chuck notes, his day of reckoning came several years ago when -- as the result of a merger -- he found himself the chairman and a major shareholder of a small, publicly owned development company known as Phoenix Group International. The firm established an $8 billion joint venture with the Soviet Union to supply personal computers to their 143,000 schools. Due to several unforeseen circumstances, the venture failed. The Misslers lost everything, including their home, automobiles and insurance.

It was during this difficult time that Chuck turned to God and the Bible. As a child he developed an intense interest in the Bible; studying it became a favorite pastime. In the 1970s, while still in the corporate world, Chuck began leading weekly Bible studies at the 30,000-member Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, in California. He and Nancy established Koinonia House in 1973.

Chuck had enjoyed a longtime, personal relationship with Hal Lindsey, who upon hearing of Chuck's professional misfortune, convinced him that he could easily succeed as an independent author and speaker. Over the years, Chuck had developed a loyal following. (Through Doug Wetmore, head of the tape ministry of Firefighters for Christ, Chuck learned that over 7 million copies of his taped Bible studies were scattered throughout the world.) Koinonia House then became Chuck's full-time profession.

Nancy Missler attended UCLA where she studied art. She met Chuck on a blind date in 1956 and they married the following year. Through Christian author and speaker Henrietta Mears, Nancy became a Christian, and she devoted herself to her family, raising the Misslers' four children, Chip, Mark, Lisa and Michelle.. Nancy also established a company, Missler Aerial Photography Service, that specialized in aerial and architectural photography.

After almost 20 years of marriage they appeared on the outside to have it all: challenging careers, beautiful home and many of the trappings of an extremely successful lifestyle. Despite their strong commitment to Christ, their marriage was falling apart. Nothing seemed to work and they appeared destined for divorce.

But, before such a drastic action, Nancy began to search the Scriptures for the answers to her broken heart. As she started practicing what the Lord revealed, a sequence of events began that revolutionized their marriage! Her studies have continued over 20 years as the Lord has revealed hundreds of Scriptures to guide and direct her steps.

Her first book, Why Should I be The First To Change? describes the miracle of her healed marriage. She followed this with The King's High Way Trilogy: The Way of Agape, Be Ye Transformed and Faith in the Night Seasons. These are study courses that teach the practical application of how to love as God desires; how to renew our minds so we can be transformed into His image; and, how to experience unshakeable faith so we can enjoy intimacy with Him.

More than 400,000 copies of Nancy's books have been sold to date. She has spoken to women's groups throughout the United States as well as Europe, Australia, Israel, Thailand and New Zealand. She has appeared many times on national television and given hundreds of radio interviews.

Nancy and Chuck now travel and teach through their ministry, Koinonia House, and they remain dedicated to create, develop and distribute materials which stimulate, encourage and facilitate serious study of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.

Missler has a seemingly impressive background.

Missler's Beliefs

The following is a small sampling of ridiculous biblical theories put forth or endorsed by Missler and his ministry over the years. Many of these have been debunked and some are no longer promoted by Missler.

1. He thought the face on Mars indicated that there are Martians who are planning an attack on earth via the moon which would signal the start of the Tribulation. It has been a number of years since he has said this.

2. He thinks that once Mars was so close to earth that you could see its two moons. The proof offered was that Jonathan Swift in his famous book, Gulliver's Travels (1726), describes Mars as having two small moons, way before these two moons were discovered in 1877 by Asaph Hall. He explains this by saying that Mars in ancient times was very close to the earth so man could see these two moons. Then Jupiter ejected a comet (now the planet Venus) which passed close to earth, causing the plagues of Egypt, and parting the Red Sea for Moses. Centuries later Venus jolted Mars into its present orbit. This theory is a delusional fantasy that is devoid of facts.

3.He believes the Bible is one single, harmonious, unified, inspired book, and every detail, every word, every letter, was put there by the authorship of the holy spirit for a reason. He believes this regardless of the well- supported fact that the bible is mostly pseudographical, and has been edited, revised, and embellished many times over.

4. He considers the war in Iraq a prelude to the establishment of the Antichrist’s kingdom on earth, as foretold in the Book of Revelations. He believed and promoted the same type of scenario in regard to the potential nuclear exchange between the U.S. and the Soviet Union In the 1980's.

5. He was among the group of doomsday quacks that believed and preached that the Y2K glitch would usher in the "end times".

Missler has many, many other wild theories and claims he has concocted and supported over the years. His website is www.khouse.org.

Now, on to the Koinonia House news journal...........

This is a monthly "journal" newsletter that is nothing more than a propaganda/profiteering venture. The first part of this booklet-style piece is the propaganda. There is an abundance of rationalization of skeptical questioning, circular reasoning, question-begging, and wild unsupported theories that attempt to discredit biblical criticism on all points.

In the most recent issue, vol. 15, #5, under "physics update" right in the middle of the cover it reads " WAS EINSTEIN WRONG?" We will see that even though he claims this to be an "update", there is nothing new or updated in the entire article. It is simply an attack on Einstein's theory of relativity by creation "scientists" seeking to corroborate science and the bible by any means necessary. In the article, Dr. Michael Murphy, who studied light from distant quasars, claims that "the findings suggest that there is a more fundamental theory of the way that light and matter interact; and that special relativity, at it's foundation, is actually wrong." The originator of this theory is Barry Setterfield, who in 1981 first examined this as a possibility, and was rejected by the vast majority of the scientific community. Even the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) has long ago rejected this hypothesis as ridiculous. So Murphy's remanufacturing of the issue here is beating a dead horse.

This article is an obvious attempt at resurrecting this debunked and widely rejected theory as fact to it's under-educated readers who will blindly accept whatever apologists like Missler say. At the end of the article, Missler's true intentions can be uncovered by this transparent attempt at a disclaimer. He says "Needless to say, this view is highly controversial and THE MAJORITY OF PHYSICISTS HAVE REJECTED SETTERFIELD'S HYPOTHESIS. However, IF such a theory were EVENTUALLY proven correct, it would dramatically alter our concepts of the physical universe. And the REMARKS of Dr. Michael Murphy last month MAY be another small step in that direction."(emphasis mine)

So you see, Missler is using a high degree of smoke and mirrors here. What a shame. So, the lay christian reader is left with the unmistakable impression that this long rejected theory is valid and will soon be proven true by creation scientists. This type of outright deception is deplorable.

The second half of the Missler "news journal" is an obsessive devotional ranting on "private prayer and worship" by Nancy Missler. It is simply a big jug of strange "christian cool-aid".

In one excerpt she says "Just as the perfume of incense and the cloud of glory intermingled and became one above the Golden Altar of incense in the Temple of Solomon, when we worship the lord we become united in love and one in spirit with him. At that moment we can ask whatever we will and the lord promises to hear us. We haven't just verbally attached "in his name" to our prayers, we are literally joined and united "in his name" while we are praying! " Ughhhh......I used to buy into this kind of jesus-obsession mindset. Missler's wife has been discredited as an heretic by many conservative christian groups for her un-scriptural promotion of biblical psychology. For more information on this, go to http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/nmissler.html

The last pages consist of a catalog of apologetic tapes, videos, DVD's and instructional materials for sale at unbelievably high prices, ranging from $15 to over $100 each.

They must be making a fortune fleecing the flock.

They also started Koinonia Institute, which claims to offer both undergraduate and graduate correspondence course credit in christian studies for degrees up to and including Ph.D. This is the same type of "college" that Kent Hovind supposedly received his Ph.D. from (for the real low-down on Kent Hovind's "credentials", see http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm )

In conclusion, this is another example that proves fundamentalists will use any means necessary to keep the dead and bloated whale of creationism and biblical inerrancy afloat. Even in the face of resounding discredit and defeat , those like Missler continue to lie and mislead many good, honest and well-meaning people, enriching their bank accounts and keeping the shackles of false religion firmly in place.

Add this page to:

20 Comments:

Anonymous wrote:

Try not to judge truth by the person speaking it. If a crazy person said that the sun exists, and that monkeys stole his marbles, it doesn't change the fact that the sun exists. Critics when they can't attack the teachings, attack the teacher. You see it all the time with Mormons. You have some good points concerning some of Chuck's teachings, yet remember that even a broken watch is right twice a day. I believe what Chuck and other Christian's writer's have to say on Islam, the truth they say cannot be made a lie by what the author is like or what other things the author writes. I have seen in some athiest vs christian debates, that both parties agreed to dispute the teachings which were widely accepted, and not the teachers. Everyone does and says stupid things, but the fact is Christianity isn't based on disputed things said by people who can make mistakes. They were inspired by God, no mistakes, and the major doctrinal messages of the Bible are not disputed amongst Christendom. May I recommend humbly comming to God and looking at apologetics again. I too study sources contrary to the Bible. In fact I go onto sciforums.com in order to discuss my faith with athiests, jews, Islamics etc... Constantly I am told things which they believe should destroy my faith. And constantly without failure I have found an answer for my faith. I know you could never have been close to God. Because God is close to me right now and the things He is doing in my life are amazing. I am constantly reminded by God that He exists by so many little miracles in my life. So many 'coincedences'. You can see things like Tom Harpur's book on a Pagan Christ, you can see athiests attack the bible because of it's 'contradictions', you can see all these things and come to the conclusion that you have come to. Or you can have faith and look to God and He will give you an answer. Seach for truth and you will find it. I search for it everyday, and I find it everyday. I live it. And the more I live it, the better my life.

Don't let the past stop you from truly experiencing Christ.

posted: May 13, 2006

Anonymous wrote:

Dear Timotheus,

If you will accept my definition of "belief" as: a position taken contrary to fact or in the absence of fact," then if one BELIEVES that God created the heavens and the earth, then all things are possible. Our God is so powerful, that parting the Red Sea is not difficult to accomplish as are the other "scientifically impossible" events often raised by pejorative writings such as yours.

I perceive that you are a BELIVER in the theory of "Big Bang" proposed by scientists which excludes intelligent design. There is no fact of big bang although there is evidence in support of the scientific hypothesis. But as Persig identified the Achilles heel of science, there is no scientific method for producing the scientific hypothesis. He also noted, without sarcasm, that the vast majority of hypotheses are "proven" accurate. So is this more science to disprove intelligent design by men with such colossal egos that they are unable to imagine a Creator able to provide an infinite amount of detail to keep scientists busy for all time.

If we examine your belief and its corollary, survival of the fittest, we are led to observe the most murderous religion conceived by man as practiced by believers such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al. Not a group that I choose to advocate.

Having been where you are, I advise you to abandon the intellectual pursuit of Christianity, pray to God for an epiphany to rewire your brain and give you peace.

donald@edgar.name

posted: June 05, 2006

boomSLANG wrote:

If "all things are possible" with a mere "belief" in God(anony's words), then it's also "possible" that you are wrong, and it's my "belief" that the "God" you speak of exists nowhere outside of your head. Good day.

posted: June 05, 2006

The Earth is still flat wrote:

To: Boomslang
Short, simple, and powerful. I like your style. I get tired of the pussies that quote everything they can find to try and convince us of how intelligent and better they think they are.
It's all really so simple. THERE IS NO GOD !!
If he exist, can someone tell me where he came from ? Did he have a Mother and Father ? How can one exist without reproduction ? I never heard that mentioned in the 'BIBLE'.

posted: June 23, 2006

Kim wrote:

To: Earth is still flat

God has no beginning and has always been around. That is why He is God and you are trying to understand Him in terms of your extremely limited human experience. He is outside of time- not constrained by time like we are. You don't understand that because we don't have the capacity to understand what being outside of time means since it is all we know.

To: ExChristian

I appreciate that you say that you have searched and searched. Can I make a suggestion to you? Keep searching but this time continue to pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you to all truth. I know that if you sincerely want truth then you will find it but you must continue to pray that the Lord will show you. I know, I've been there myself. It is too important not to do this. Your eternal destiny depends on what is really the truth.

Also, I have never heard anyone say not to look at "the opposing side". Most Christians I know say that you need to know why you believe what you believe and be able to articulate it. Also, anyone that understands salvation know that Satan nor anyone else can take your salvation from you - if you really have it. IF you are truly saved, which means that you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you, you WILL come to the truth because He will guide you to all truth. But if you have never truly repented for your sins and made Christ the Lord of your life then you never had salvation in the first place. I can't answer that question for you, only you and the Lord know your heart (and He knows your heart far better than you) so you need to search your heart to make sure that you really did have the salvation in the first place. It's a little hard to believe that someone who really came to the realization of his own incurable sinful state and need for a savior to save him from that sinful condition and make himself right with GOd, has now determined that he really isn't in need of a savior anymore.

Furthermore, I actually have listened to hours of Chuck Missler and have found him to be a pretty sound Bible teacher who knows his stuff. However, he does have some things that he believes that can be considered controversial, such as his thoughts on aliens. However, even he says that his personal beliefs on these issues are speculations and he is not saying that they are the gospel truth. As a matter of fact, if you were really a student of his you know that he repeatedly calls on his students not to take anything that he says for granted but to search the scriptures for yourself. There are some things that are gospel truth that you MUST believe to be saved, which are that Jesus is the SOn of God, the trinity, HIs ressurection, HIs deity and that He is the Savior and thast we are sinners in need of a savior. All of Missler's speculations about aliens etc., he himself never asserted that are to be taken as absolute truth or requirement for salvation. Because none of us have the entire truth, because certain things God has not revealed to us yet, we have differing views on things that aren't necessary for salvation anyway.

posted: August 19, 2006

Anonymous wrote:

To all of you Christians out their, Look up your history. Then when you know how fucked up your people are, Please for all of us burn your selfs to a stake.
Amen.

posted: August 23, 2006

Anonymous wrote:

Well Timmy you made the mistake of looking at man rather than God. All have fallen short remember? When you are dying and you find out you were distracted by others beliefs and doctorines, God is going to say well Tim you didn't ask me. I am currently engaged in a 3 year dialog with a very anti-christian Ivy league educated Rabbi. He has published many books and is well known. When I hit a tough spot in our debates and he thinks he has me I pray and ask God to explain it to me and the Holy Spirit always helps me find the answer.This man's creditals are vastly superior to my farm girl education. Yet the Lord himself confounds this Rabbi through me. I just chuckle and say way to go Lord... I didn't see that one coming.

Looking at others- That is why you are LOST. Ask, seek, find. That is HIS instruction. God has never failed me. His timing is different than mine but he is always there when it counts.He loves a broken and contrite heart.You may have gotten caught up in some emotional message, walked up to a alter-but you never KNEW Jesus. When you develop a love relationship in the most personal way with Jesus, he is there. He does the most amazing things just to remind me hey I love you. He is no respector of persons so he will treat you the same if you cry out to him "Jesus I need you- help me. Help my unbelief and forgive my doubt and sin.Cleanse my heart and come in!" If you really mean it. I mean really mean it. He shows up. He asks for a broken and contrite heart....I hope to meet you in heaven. Love, Celia

posted: August 25, 2006

Bacchus wrote:

Well, it is important not judge what is said just by who says it, that is true, but one also has to look at what is being said critically. Someone here wrote that God is very close to them and day unto day proves is divine existence. Fair enough, but what does it have to do with Christianity? I think the point being discussed by the original article is not existence or non-existence of a single benevolnt god as such, but the doctrinal teachings of Christianity. And while I wholeheartedly believe in the existence of a single Creator God and possibly existence of a number of beings so alien to us that we can only describe them as gods, one has to question what the Christian tradition says ON TOP of the existence of a single all-powerful God. And frankly, a lot of what is said and, importantly, has been said by Christian scholars is an opportunistic pile of poo that simply does not apply nowadays nor should be perceived as an absolute truth. Being Christian, doesn't require being a blind sheep following to letter the rantings of someone who claims that a "holy spirit" is acting through him. There is only one non-disputable foundation to Christianity and that foundation is Love - Love your God, Love your neighbour, Love yourself - that is th important bit, the rest is commentary and should be seen as such.

posted: August 26, 2006

boomSLANG wrote:

"There is only one non-disputable foundation to Christianity and that foundation is Love - Love your God, Love your neighbour, Love yourself."

Notice that there are THOUSANDS of religions that promote "Love your God". The part that's "non-disputable" is what the Christian bible says happens to those "other" people in those "other" religions.

As for "Love your neighbor and Love yourself".....we don't need religion to be capable of those things.

posted: August 26, 2006

Anonymous wrote:

Hey guy - I've listened to Chuck for years. Coming from an engineering background and also believing in creation, I find Chuck a lot of fun. However, as you pointed out, quite a few things he says are way out there, and some are just outright wrong.
Anyway, I'm heading to bible college (an accredited one!) for a BA Theology. I hear your concerns regarding pretty much ALL that you have been concerned with. I'm sorry that you came to the conclusions that you did, but at least you have made an honest attempt to deal with your faith, unlike most Christians out there, who never take the time to really dig into 'what they believe'. Good for you (not too good for your soul!) but anyway, whatever you have done, I do appreciate that you do post all of these comments that are critical of you. I have quite a lot of experience in sales / sales management, and in my early years, was involved with a large national sales company. In retrospect, after I found out the 'truth' about them and their practices, and that we were all pretty much duped by them (brainwashed?), I do understand how you feel about these critics of yours (I felt the same way when many years after I left that company, I would sometimes run into the company sales guys, all spouting the company line, just like I used to). I hope you understand.

I would suggest that you read anything by A.E. Wilder Smith. On his website, there are a number of mp3 recordings for you to download.

I'm non denominational, but you could put me in the 'evangelical' box if push comes to shove. Through my studies of greek, I have come to realise that there is likely no 'eternal hell' as espoused by the pulpits. Christ died for ALL MEN - especially for those who believe. You know what I mean when I say that there are many problems with what we are told.

Dont lose all hope in your faith.
Christ is real. The bible (hebrew, greek, aramaic) is reliable. Go back and read it (there is software and books for this you know!) in the original, in context, and you will regain your faith. Look at Philo. Read his thoughts on where Plato got his ideas! Moses! Did Moses write Torah? Christ thought he did (and he quoted from Daniel and other prophets). I know there has been revision and mischief by people through the years, but we can now go back and see for ourselves.

Hey, I salute your search. I hope you have not stopped though, I suppose you might only be half way there. Wink Wink. When Jesus does judge you, I suppose you will repent (nowhere does it say we cant repent at that time (but read Romans 1 to 11 why you should repent now) - especially since this Judge knows EVERYTHING - past present and future - and would know your heart too - if you were sincere) and then Jesus would have mercy on you, as I suspect He would for almost everyone (yes - even the pygmy in darkest Africa who never heard of Yeshua).

Keep searching. Please.

David Stephen

posted: September 10, 2006

J. C. Samuelson wrote:

Mr. Stephen,

First off, thank you for the amicable post. Most of the faithful who choose to post here bring condemnation and/or apologetics that simply hold no water. That said, I'd like to respectfully address a couple points you brought up.

"Through my studies of greek, I have come to realise that there is likely no 'eternal hell' as espoused by the pulpits."

In principle, we agree. However, the concept of Hell (eternal separation from God and/or torture) is certainly a biblical doctrine, and has support in both testaments. You may be correct that the NT uses hades and gehenna (both transliterated, of course) as a metaphor. However, the book of Revelation has an unfortunate passage in which the metaphor is cast into the lake of fire, which is described as the second death (Rev. 20:14 YLT).

"Christ is real."

Jesus may or may not have been a real person who, if he did in fact exist, died roughly 2,000 years ago. That is all anyone can rationally conclude. I mean no disrespect, but any other belief is irrational because such beliefs require faith in the alleged supernatural nature of a book.

"The bible (hebrew, greek, aramaic) is reliable."

All other arguments aside, even were the Bible to prove 100% accurate in its description of historical events and personalities (which it hasn't), its reliability with regard to the supernatural events would still be in doubt. Angels, demons, devils, dragons, talking snakes, resurrections - none of these has ever been reliably documented outside the holy text that describes them.

"Go back and read it (there is software and books for this you know!) in the original, in context, and you will regain your faith...I know there has been revision and mischief by people through the years, but we can now go back and see for ourselves."

It may be possible to read it in the original languages. However, even the existing extant texts containing the original languages do not all agree on every point, because even those who transmitted it in the original languages did not always agree. Revisions abound, even in the Greek. Furthermore, the original documents no longer exist, assuming the oldest fragments aren't the originals. Most evangelicals wouldn't accept the latter assertion, because that would place the first writings of the NT around 125 AD/CE (the oldest fragment we have and contains a portion of the Gospel of John). Finally, my statement above concerning supernatural creatures and events still applies.

Simply put, even reading it in the original language isn't going to resolve every difficulty.

"Look at Philo. Read his thoughts on where Plato got his ideas! Moses! Did Moses write Torah?"

Not sure where you were trying to go with this. Could you elaborate?

"Hey, I salute your search. I hope you have not stopped though, I suppose you might only be half way there."

That is all any of us can do - search for truth.

As for the remainder of your post, I see a logical problem that you'll have to reconcile with your faith. If Hell is just a metaphor, and there are no real consequences then what purpose does judgment serve? Just something for you to think about.

Good luck.

posted: September 11, 2006

boomSLANG wrote:

David: "Good for you (not too good for your soul!)"

Later in the lecture: "I'm non denominational, but you could put me in the 'evangelical' box if push comes to shove."

No, no need to push or shove---you fit nice and neatly in the typical self-righteous Evangelical "box". And this would mean, of course, that you have zero evidence for your belief other than your "self-proving" document, the "Holey" Bible.

posted: September 11, 2006

Anonymous wrote:

Great site, I too am looking for the TRUTH.

I am not a Christian I am free of that doctrine so I feel I can have more of an objective view.
My beliefs are simply what ever you want them to be as I don’t like to be moulded into a certain segment, there is no round hole for this square peg.

I am fascinated at Christianity though, I am surprised it even exists in this age of Internet and true free speech (hence none liberal media hype and flavoured BS).

Simple searches and books on the subject reveal, Christianity was and is in-fact just made up of many many past religions, all moulded together to provide one book of past religions coming together just in a different flavour! All seeming to point to some slave state mentality with restrictions on self development! We are what we are, if there was a god he would not restrict us, since he in fact made us in all our ways, as ugly as some of these are.

If there is an omnipotent being, he is fact can’t exist in that context, since if he creates everything he in-fact created evil also, he is the creator after all.
Is he not the whole powerful?
Did he not create man in his image so it says!

Then we are told to comply, conform and STFU it’s just how it is.
Then from the past the bloody history of this religion makes Cultism look like bambie.
Just do a search on the history of the church, from mass murder, scandal, hording of worldly true treasures (not value based), are unspeakable acts that most idiots simply buy into.

Also you any idea how weird it is to read about alters to Christ, you any idea what an alter is?
It is a place (pre-Christianity) for the practice of magick, not worship of god, using magick to know god and in that become as a god, or free the spirit of its eathy material bonds. Strange how the ritual garbs reflect that what they try to stop you from doing.

But can you say this?
In the past no, but now in free speech, any connection with a god or gods must be evidenced and the only way to that seems to be via, magic or Buddhist rituals (incidentally yoga is a stolen act from meditation to open up your chakkara).

Why is this stuff forbidden or labelled bad.
When all around you are materialistic robots, buying into the worship of gold (money) to meet no progress other then monetary gain.
Seem the only way this structure works is to limit the spiritual growth in flavour of material gain, hence advancement!
But for what, is our place better then say how the Egyptians/greeks of old lived?

Exactly what are we advancing for?
To fly of this rock?
Only reason we need to fly of this rock is when our advances kill it, or we become so over populated we need wars and death to balance the numbers!
Which ever way you look at it, it is fundamentally the pursuit of knowledge and EXPERIENCE. Even in our gold worshipping rituals of this world perception we still cant help to advance to the unknown, it is in essence one of our basic drives, to advance in what ever pursuit we are, shame spiritual and material are separated and there exist no evidence in the biblical man made books to mould the two together, no wonder ppl are confused.

Has Christianity played a part in that?
Well the restriction of personal spiritual growth, adds up to the worship of gold (money) which equals, work for value and not for self motivational life experience!

Anyway.

Peace, from a guy still looking for answers to the divine and the reason why life is simply too well contrasted in nature to be left to random chance!
No matter what Dawin states, something created this, even the big bang theory has a god and his name is the atom, he exists in us all and that is fundamentally energy, so in essence that theory we are all one big ball of energy experiencing a material life.

Strange truths can be found in some weird places!
Questions are:
Why do ppl belive in spiritual growth?
Why is there such things as Tibetan monks that dedicate there life to something they believe is more real then this?
Why do occults worship there rituals and seem to have some hidden knowledge over the masses?
And why was the bible written when it is proved to be blatantly a rip of and made on false hoods and none proven facts, for what purpose does it TURLY Server??

And the biggest question?
Why do ppl believe in something that has been proven to be false?
Is it born from fear?
Fear of death?
Well that has to be the most anal thing to fear (pardon the pun)?
Ask this!
If death was the end then what a waste of life lived, worshipping some lie and restricting the life you can have be it anything you desire!
And if there was a god, would he not want you to grow in the best way you could, did he not make you after all?
Why make something to be anything then limited it by placing in a box? It makes no sense at all!

Motivation action and reaction makes the rules in this world, everything else is subject to perception.

Also so many religions,
Ask this, if even on of them was true then that means the rest are false, one would go crazy to find out the one that was the truth in this world of lies and propagander to the servitude of what ever eventuality man as spun for you!

Also the statement of Solomon’s alter is actually refernce to Solomon the king who in-fact practiced summoning due to a select believe given by god about attaining true power!

No I don’t do magick I am a normal guy in this strange but fascinating world, hoping to one day uncover the truth!

seeker...

posted: November 13, 2006

Mike wrote:

My father put us on the Koinonia club mailng list with out telling for the longest time we coudnt figure out were this crazy news letter came fom. All the information was lies and crazy rants on the end of the world. Now my dad believes in u.f.o's be cause of Chuck Missler. I guess if you believe in one fairytale you believe in them all.

posted: November 19, 2006

Anonymous wrote:

Please do not confuse what may or may not be errors spoken or written by a Christian with the Truth of Christ. No one can argue that there are false prophets who profess to know more than they do in the name of fleecing others out of money or other possessions.

I enjoy listening to Chuck Missler and must admit he (at the very least) knows his Bible a LOT better than I do. This does not, however, lead me to take everything the man says as "Gospel". One thing he always suggest to his listeners and readers is that one should research the scriptures and Prayerfully establish your own conclusions. He has (in fact) led many Christians to study scripture more in depth than they would have prior to hearing his viewpoints.

I am an American, so I respect your right to your opinion and exercising your Constitutional rights of self expression. Please accept my right as a Christian to Pray for you and others that might be led to turn away from The Lord by reading this web site.

posted: January 07, 2007

Jim Arvo wrote:

Anonymous,

It's wonderful for Chuck to encourage others to reach their own conclusions. I can't argue with that. But would he ever suggest to his listeners that they should try to understand the arguments of non-believers? Would you? I suspect the answer is "No" in both cases. Is that, perhaps, because believers may be "lead astray" by hearing, considering, and researching what we have to say? If that's what you think, let me propose another way of looking at it--an alternative explanation, if you will. Those who do their research and ultimately reject Christianity (or any other religious system of beliefs) often do so because they have grown in their understanding, and expanded their thinking. They have come to realize that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made belief system, just like all other religions the world over, throughout recorded history. In other words, they have rightly observed that it is all an elaborate myth. Is that a possibility you can ponder for a moment? Can you honestly rule it out?

posted: January 07, 2007

Warnepiece wrote:

Anonymous,

Thanks for respecting our rights to voice our opinions here, although I am mystified why you then end your post with [we] “should accept [your] right to pray for you and others that might be led to turn away from the lord by reading this web site.”

Seems like you are saying, “well, you may have the right, but you shouldn’t!”

I have a Pakistani neighbor who is a sunni muslim. We talk a lot as he and his family are trying to assimilate into American society. I will ask him to pray to Allah for you, Anonymous, so that you will not turn away from the teachings of Mohammed by reading and basing your life on the bible. He has extra qur'ans and I know he will give me one to send to you. Will that be okay so that you will be led to the one true religion...islam?

posted: January 07, 2007

Anonymous wrote:

I dont have an account but you can call me Joe.

I have always believed in living by the basic priniciples of christianity. Such as the Ten commandments. However i dont necessarily follow christianity itself. Im still trying to find my own path in life. But just because you disagree with the beliefs of a religion doesnt mean you cant learn from it. I am no christian but the 10 commandments are rules to live by. And the stories in the bible? Well. I dont really honestly think anyone thinks Noahs ark ever existed or that the garden of eden was real. These stories along with others are designed to teach crucial moral leasons to live by. Not to hold every word in them to heart. Ive read some of these posts and some of them are quite harsh. But thats mainly from ignorance and immaturity. Please people be more responsive to other religions. Just because someone worships buddah or christ doesnt make them "stupid" or a (please excuse me) "dumbass". It just means there finding there own path in life. So remember, just because you disagree with a religion doesnt mean it doesnt have good leasons to teach.

posted: March 14, 2007

Anonymous wrote:

I'm with the anonymous anti-christian there. Look at your past. A pope ounce said that everybody who is not catholic or christian (I think he had something against ordinary christians aswell for some twisted reason) Should be killed by the popes followers and rot in hell. That's FAR worse than Hitler himself, and one of the many terrible things implied by the catholics and christians that started the KKK. It sickens me and tries to suduce me to suicide every time I think of it. Most peaple in the christian faith only listen to unproven words written in that damn book and know nothing of their dark side. Most of them Join that cruel faith because it is the easiest to access. A bible in every hotel drawer and a church in every town. The laws of christian Pilgrimage were destroying mother earth long bofore greed was embedded in every man, and the force of gravity that protects us from the sun (The ozone layer) was torn apart, and resulted in fire spreading like a plauge. If Buddists respect religions based on love and compassion, they should not be respecting Christianity. I was known by freinds to be open minded to every faith until I realized how ignorant the race of human christians are. Think about the stars. Think about hydrogen gases creating them. Think about evolution. Think about how it has ALL been proven. It is human nature to think that there is life after death, and that there is a force of good and bad in the universe. I beleive both. But if proven wrong with no way to counter it:THINK. I beg you, think.
Thank you for reading. My name is Lewis Dean, I am 12 years old and australian. Two things that most peaple would hear, Judge, and not listen to a word that perticular person said. Remember, the "holy book" did say:
"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

posted: April 03, 2007

tigg13 wrote:

Welcome Lewis. Glad to have you here.

You sound wiser than your years - we can never have too much of that.

posted: April 04, 2007

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