.: posted 5/26/2002 ::: by webmdave :::   

The theodicé problem
We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

The ontological evidence against gods
Neccesary in a god is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a god.

Not any of the existing religions can provide such a god. How do we know if there are no undiscovered beings worthy our submission? Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against god holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.

There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against god, that you can do to try the existence of god. Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that god exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no god.

The meaning of the word existence
What do we mean by existence? The very definition for existence is that a thing is said to exist if it relates in some way to some other thing. That is, things exist in relation to each other. For us, that means that something is part of our system ('The known world'). God is defined to be infinite, in which case it is not possible for there to be anything other than god because "infinite" is all-inclusive. But if there is nothing other than god then either god cannot be said to exist for the reason just explained, or god is the known world, in which case, by definition, god is not a god.

Occam's razor
Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in english: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily". It is a principle for scientific labour which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.

Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent god. A god which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in it self has it's own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning. Most theists agree that god has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created god's nature? If we just accept that god has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?

God is not really an explanation, only a non-explanation. It is impossible to gain information from non-information so God as an explanation is a dead end. When we have said that the reason for something is that 'god did it that way' there is no way to understand it any further. We just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are. To explain the unknown by god is only to explain how it happened, not why. If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Occam's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.

Some things are impossible to do:
There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If god were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.

Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is? Is it logically possible to walk on water? Is it logically possible to rise from the dead? Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist? I'd say that everything which violates the laws of physics are logically impossible and thus omnipotence is logically impossible. Besides if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.

Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes
Another way to disprove the almighty god is that omnipotence leads to paradoxes. Can god make a rock that is too heavy for him to carry? Can god build a wall that even he can't tear down?

Also, if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.

The void creator
If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

We would never notice god
This is not an evidence against god, but rather describes the lack of sense in praying to a god who stands above time.

If god stands above time and created time and space he can not be the first link in a time dependent chain of events. Rather he would affect every step in all chains, and we would only see god in the laws of physics (Davies, 1983, chapter 4). This god is an unnecessary entity to describe the world and should be removed with Occam's razor

If somebody would pray to god and god would listen, the laws would change to achieve the desired result. Thus the world would be different and the prayer would never have been said. Besides god would already (in an "above time" sense of view) know that you would pray, and already have changed the world. Prayers would be totally meaningless. We would already live in the best world possible, and any prayer would be to doubt the wisdom of god.

Even worse: For every prayer said, god has not acted, or else the prayer had been undone. This means that the more people have prayed, the more bad things in the world have persisted. Therefore, the more you pray, the more evil persist (provided god exists and stands above time).

A much better way to change the world is to do it yourself. Then you would know that it was you who made the world better. The effect of prayers are not scientific provable, whilst the effect of actions are. Instead of praying you should set to work at improving your situation. This is what humanism is about.

Nobody really believes in god
Schopenhauer once said something like:

"Man can do anything he wants, but he can not want whatever he wants."

My thesis is that people who claim to believe in god do not really do so. They just wish to believe in god. They somehow feel that their lives are meaningless without god, so they choose to close their eyes to evidence against the existence of god. The christian view is well expressed by Cardinal Ratzinger:

"Religious liberty can not justify freedom for divergence. This freedom does not aim at any freedom relative truth, but concerns the free descicion for a person to, according to his moral inclinations accept the truth." (The times, June 27 1990, p9)

It's as clear as it can be! For a christian you accept the "truth" according to your moral, and then have to be strong in your faith to keep your believes. You decide a priori what to believe and then try to convince yourself and others that it is true. But theists don't really believe, because to believe something is to take it for true, and just like in Nazareth's song Sold my soul there is no sign of god in the world. When you have the evidence for and against something your sub-conscious works on it and makes a conclusion. The process can't be affected by your will, only delayed or suppressed, which will lead to psychoses, and those are far more common among (catholic) priests than any other group..

I have personal experience of this believing what you want to believe. When I was a child I believed in a lot of crazy things. I thought my stuffed animals were intelligent. I believed in Santa Claus. I thought there were monsters under my bed at night. I even believed in god after I heard some of the tales from the old testament. Then I became older and realized that these things weren't true. When I look back I don't understand how I could believe in them, it must have been that I wanted to do so. (Except for the monsters, which had to do with fear of the dark)

When many religious people are confronted with criticism of their religion they convert to atheism or agnosticism. Examples of people who became critical to the dogmas of christianity are Charles Darwin (Darwin, 1958), Dan Barker (Barker, 19??), Ernest Renan plus many former "Catholic modernists" in the 19th century such as Alfred Loisy and Antonio Fogazzaro (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991). The Catholic modernism evolved in the late 19th century and was banned in 1907 by the Vatican (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991). These people are to me clear evidence that an enlightened person will after considering the facts, reject christianity and other religions that contain deities.

Note: This is not the "Plead to authority" fallacy. I'm talking people here, who were trying to prove the existence of god and turned atheists. They did not want to do this, but had to after reading a lot of books and doing a lot of thinking on the subject.

Epilogue
I have tried to define the only god that can be philosophically justified and show some examples why this god cannot exist. After reading this document you may object and say that god is beyond human understanding and can't be defined in scientific terms. This is the view of agnosticism.

If god is so mysterious, how can we know anything about him? Through the Bible? How do we know that the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedha books, for example, are the words of god? (or the bible if you believe in any of the other two books). Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of god, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan?

If there is no way to know this but to trust people who claim they have had "divine experiences" there is no way to tell true from false prophets. One has to give up his free mind and follow the authority of a dictator. Remember also that it is the person making a positive claim who has to prove it.

"I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." -- Bertrand Russell

"We shall not believe anything unless there is reasonable cause to believe that it is true" -- Ingemar Hedenius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References

Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception (1991)

Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith - From preacher to atheist (19??)

Charles Darwin, The Autobiography of Charles Darwin 1809-1882. With original
omissions restored. Edited with appendix and notes by his grand-daughter Nora Barlow. The only complete edition. (1958)

Paul Davies, God and the new physics (1983)

The following was posted to the Message Board in response to this article. I thought the writer made some good points so added it here

I really want to think more about this and learn from everyone's comments (as my own thoughts are developing on this). I'd appreciate everyone's comments and am sure I will learn a lot from them.

> Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time?

Is creation necessarily an event in time ? I realize that it seems ludicrous to suggest otherwise, but the statement in itself implies that without time and space there can be no existence or perception. Being creatures that are aware of only this existence in a dimension where time and space are integral to every thought and concept we have, it would be very hard to believe there is a reality where the rules of time and space are not so rigid (or exist at all).

Example: Prior to space and time, God decided to create space and time (and everything in it ; the universe). Even our language is designed in a way which makes it difficult to even discuss a reality that is not based on space and time. To say the word 'prior' in the first sentence implies there was a prior - a prior to the creation of space and time. How can we talk about before and after without time ?? The whole thing is paradoxical.

So does that mean that in a reality where time and space don't exist, all events happen at once ? What does 'at once' even mean without time ? And what does the word 'all' mean without space ? Usually, when we say all we are summing a group of things the things are separated by space.

Very frustrating. So it seems to show that there is no world without time and space.

Then we have quantum physics. I don't profess to be an expert about the subject, but it is interesting. If you happen to believe that the physicists of this world are knowledgeable (I do) then you might have a difficult time reconciling common sense with the world of quantum physics where the building blocks or our universe can exist in various states. Things at the subatomic level can exist in several places at once. Things can have multiple outcomes (electron can be detected at point B or point A depending on who looks at it and how). Experiments have been performed that seem to indicate that something you do right this instant can affect (at the subatomic level) something in the past. Light has recently been 'frozen' inside a structure and then released to become light again (much later).

Since we're all made of subatomic particles, our bodies - the whole universe is based on things that have no concrete location (space) and can exist in multiple places at once (space and time). Couple this with the experiment where things in the past can be affected with things you do today (time) and I'm back to being frustrated again. My perception in daily life seems to indicate a world of absolutely nothing but one based on time and space yet the physicists are demonstrating that the rules of time and space are not so absolute.

A part of me likes your (Dave) argument because it just makes sense. But in light of all the rules of quantum physics, it doesn't seem as cut and dry anymore. Maybe we'll discover that it is possible to create time and space without having to exist in time and space. That there's a reality outside of that. ??? That time and space is more of a perception or a side effect of simply existing in the universe in which we inhabit ???

I'm sure this post seems confused (as I usually am) and contrived but these are real suspicions that I have. But as a non-believer in God, If I had to pin myself down to a religion or belief it would have to be one of science. I know it's not a God based religion (more of the Einstein type of religion) but I use it to try to help me decide where I might go after I die and why I'm here - and that seems to be a major part of organized religion.

So when I hear about the implausibility of a God out of time and space creating time and space, I have to take issue with it. It makes just as much sense as a purely scientific theory of everything just existing because it just exists. Or everything being created (including time - including the law of thermodynamics ?) due to the big bang (essentially something being created from nothing). Even scientific answers just seem to answer one question with a different one.

So, I don't think it's too surprising that people turn to religion to get answers/comfort, but I hope they consider there's a fascinating reality right here that they can see, hear, touch and feel.

ERG

 Anonymous wrote:

This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general.

posted: March 12, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

To the person who said this:

"This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general. "

Buddhism is NOT the ONLY religion that doesn't coflict with Darwin's theory of evolution. Catholicism doesn't either. You don't have to take the Bible LITERALLY when it says that God created Adam and Eve as the first people. I am a Catholic and the Bible is not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Many of the stories of the Old Testament are just stories to teach lessons.

posted: March 13, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

And to everyone who doesn't believe in God...where is your proof that he doesn't exist? Just because you can't see something does not mean that it isn't there. You can't see feelings such as love, but you definitely know that it is there. And talking about time and stuff like that...it can't just keep going back and back and back infinitely. Something or someone had to start it all. If you want you could check out Thomas Aquinas's five proofs that God exists.

posted: March 13, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

"We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?"

God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to.

posted: March 13, 2006 EST  

 Jim Arvo wrote:

(Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

posted: March 13, 2006 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

"God wanted a perfect world..."

So even a god can't get what he wants. And when he doesn't get it, he gets pissed.

HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL...

You get the point.

posted: March 13, 2006 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

Anonymous 3/13/2006 10:23 PM: "God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to."

I'll say it again, seems like many people want to "stuff" words in a gods proverbial mouth, thus, elevating themselves to a "god" status. Makes one wonder, if the person speaking on a god(s), behalf somehow has personal visits as well, in order to discuss matters left out of the bible.

Anonymous, you obviously haven't read the bible and pondered on free will that much, or you'd realize, that no one has free will, if they are born into "sin". Simply put, according to tradition, we were born into a pre-destined situation of sin, where an omniscient god knows whether of not we will choose to follow them or not, hence, no free will. Oh, sure, we may "think" we are making a choice in life, but... not really, according to original sin... according to much of religion, we are just living out our lives, exactly as an omniscient god knows we will. What a person thinks in novel, is a done deal in a gods' mind, thus, as humans we may theoretically think we are experiencing free will, but... to an omniscient god, the book of life has already been written, hence, why worry about what a person can't control. Many religionists are so spun up trying to control events outside of this universe, in their own mind, while letting their current real day-to-day life wither away.

Acts 13:48 - "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Rom.8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

2 Th.2:11-12 - "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

2 Tim.1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Eph.1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Jude 4 - "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."

By the way, if all mankind is predestined, then obviously all the suicide, murder, mass genocide, natural disasters, etc., are already known events, and god knowingly allows them to occur. Obviously, he/she/it feels there is some benefit in allowing pain and suffering to occur in this life, without our free will to make a change.

God's Plan, well, according to the bible...

Rom.9:11-22 - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

God "created" some to honor, and yet others to dishonor him/her/it. Then, of course, the finale, where those who were created to dishonor, were created for no less than examples to be set for others, as "god" fits them for destruction, to show his/her/its godly powers. Seems like god, uses coercion, manipulation, and outright deceit to keep those who will honor, in line.

Based on the christian view of a "god", I'd have to say I'm an Atheist, but, hey, I just don't believe in the christian concept of a god. The old codger just seems to be too self-centered and concerned with his/her/its ego, I'd go as far as the christian version of a god being narcissistic, but, that's just my opinion.

Regarding, god and satan, if we as humans were given free will, and satan was also, then... whose to say, satan didn't inspire the KJV bible. Obviously, tradition shows that satan was around long before the bible was written. It would at least explain all of the contradictions, atrocities, etc.

posted: March 13, 2006 EST  

 Onanite wrote:

Xtian god has all sorts of limits... MD, oh he can't heal that ... MS oh he can't heal that....limbs gone, oh he can't heal that.

From what I have seen of Pat Roberts "healings" on the 700 club, god can get rid of headaches, that's about it.

(snicker) So can I.

Onanite

posted: March 14, 2006 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.

posted: March 14, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

If you are so certain god doesn't exist, and think everyone should open their eyes to "reality", then what makes you so certain I believe in your "scientific evidence", there just theories, just because you cant see God, doesnt mean he doesnt exist, it's called faith. Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too? Mere chance? goodluck with life

posted: June 05, 2006 EST  

 Dano wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

"............Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too?........"

Anonymous! "perfect organs?" Are you a guy or a girl?

IF concave, please post your e-mail address. If your organs are perfect, I want to hear more!

Dan (Just curious!)

posted: June 05, 2006 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Young anony takes a break from X-box to say: "...just because you cant see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, it's called faith."

Let's see....you can't "see" unicorns, the Great Pumpkin, the Easter Bunny, elves, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, imps, the Boogieman, Osiris, and/or a bazillion other "gods", either. I suppose you have "faith" in those, too?

BTW, science doesn't deal in absolutes--it's "only" a "theory" that you are breathing oxygen.(obviously, not enough) lol

posted: June 05, 2006 EST  

 Bentley wrote:

We happen to live on a planet in this corner of the Milky way Galaxie, we have no way of knowing if there are other planets inhabited in this galaxie.

Now the Milky Way Galaxie is just one of an estimated over 125 Billion other galaxies that exist in outer space, so to think that we are the only living beings in the Universe is just based totally on ignorance.

That's the reason that the Bible writers invented a God, because they could not comphrend that there were even other planets in outer space.

What amazes me is that anyone could still believe what some stupid jackasses wrote over 2000 years ago, not having practically any knowledge about any one thing.

posted: June 05, 2006 EST  

 Pull Your Head Out Nony wrote:

Anony: "And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too? Mere chance? goodluck with life"

Ah, another weenie who believes we were made of perfect mud, with a potters wheel in the middle of a perfect garden. Obivously, nony, seems to have overlooked the obvious extra organs we have, that aren't really serving functions, except to get us through a critical point during our evolutionary challenges, with our environment.

Santa says, people really don't exist, they're just magical creatures with perfect organs.

posted: June 05, 2006 EST  

 south2003 wrote:

.:webmaster:. said...
God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.

I went back to the pancake thread and found this posting -- absolutely hilarious!!!

hmmmm.... maybe he should stick an apple in Falwells big mouth and have bacon to go with em. If he keeps eaten this crap he'll never get off the ground when rapture comes .... Here i am Jesus ! ... bounce ...bounce...Help me Lord !....pull
tarotpoker, 11.20.2003, 12:45 am #

posted: June 05, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Better to believe then not believe there is a God! Isn't it better to be saved then sorry, later when it may be too late?
What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?
I am sorry you do not believe in the Lord your God. I will pray for you. I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour and It did put a stop to all my doubts. Thanks to God!

posted: September 03, 2006 EST  

 J. C. Samuelson wrote:

"Better to believe then not believe there is a God! Isn't it better to be saved then sorry, later when it may be too late?
What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?"

We did believe, and ultimately rejected Pascal's Wager.

"I will pray for you."

Don't bother. I know you probably think this is a nice thing to say, but really if you think about it, it's not. You're saying there's something wrong with the person you're offering to pray for.

If someone said, "I will sacrifice a chicken for you, that you might believe," would that make you feel loved and cared for?

"I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour..."

Did you lose a limb and have it magically replaced overnight, or something equivalent? If not, I rather suspect there is a natural reason for your recovery.

posted: September 04, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God. He was all I had left, and He was still there. He did pick me right up and I was healed spiritually and physically! So was my aunt. I will keep my sickness a secret for now, since you are so defensive about my faith in the Lord our God.

I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord.
I can tell you this, I really learned the hard way. It is the way you will learn as well, because of your attitude. You should know I felt similar to you for many years.

Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy.

The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult.
I never knew there was a webiste like this in cyberspace. I have to say, I am shocked. I sent this link it to all my friends who love the Lord, to see what they think about this site.

Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be safe by faith, then later to find out God exsists because you finally have come face to face with Him. Most of us relise that if we wait that long, it will be to late.
What will you have lost by believing in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

Love will conquer all. Have a great Labor day to all!

posted: September 04, 2006 EST  

 Bentley wrote:

Please keep in mind you're trying to have faith in invisible beings and souls which no one has ever seen, how can humans describe something that has never been seen?

I know you will say the wind exists, and it is invisible, but there are not volumes and volumes describing the wind,ok?

So you're taking the word of people that lived over 2000 years ago that they wrote about that are invisible and have never been proven and never been seen, atleast the wind can be proved to be real, whereas the things you're pretending to believe in, cannot be proved and never will be proved. All you have is a belief, nothing more, it's not much, it's something you wish for, thats all.

We're though with wishing and hoping and living in an fantasy mind delusion, but you're not.

posted: September 04, 2006 EST  

 J. C. Samuelson wrote:

"...when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."

Everyone needs to be propped up from time to time, and some of us chose religion. But that is what it is - a prop. I used it, and ultimately discarded it.

There is a psychological benefit to be had from religion for those who need it. It's even been known to make some people behave better (my grandfather wouldn't know how to act otherwise - or says he wouldn't). However, not everyone needs it, and there are those who prefer living without it.

When religion turns people into evangelists, witnessing to all and sundry because they believe they've found the Absolute Truth™ it becomes a problem. When they visit ex-Christian websites and lecture former believers, it's a problem. When they ignore the fact that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, it's a problem. You get the idea.

As for Pascal's Wager (did you follow the link?), it is a pathetic reason to believe in something. By that logic, I should believe in each and every god just in case I might be wrong about one of them. Even you can see how ridiculous that would be, can't you?

"The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult."

I understood your intent, but wanted to point out that it is also condescending. To illustrate (again):

"You shouldn't believe in the Christian god. You should follow the Great Pumpkin. I will circle the patch thrice 'round clockwise and sacrifice a canteloupe, spilling its nectar over the ground. It's widely known that doing such a thing releases great power."

Since you're not a Great Pumpkin follower, I'm doing something on your behalf because you are in some way deficient. Does this make sense to you?

posted: September 04, 2006 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Anonymous fundamentalist said:

"I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."

Correction--you cried out to YOUR "God". Remember, you are not in church giving your testimonial to the congregation, so please--- don't start rattling off a bunch of presuppositional biblio-babble, because it means jack here. Right to the chase: You have zero evidence that your personal experience involves anything outside of your head. None. We are not "angry at God" anymore than you are angry at Shazam. We are, however, concerned that grown adults believe in talking snakes, a flat earth, ghosts, monsters, bloody rivers, unicorns, winged "body-guards", talking vegetation, sky domes, flaming chariots, swimming hammers, people made out of dust, and finally.... that they will live eternally in a blissful retirement center in the clouds.

"I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord."

Okaaaay, prayer is useless..."use"--"LESS"..i.e..."ineffective". It is ancient superstition, nothing more. And again, we are not "against the Lord", because there IS no "Lord". If you still feel convinced that "prayer" works, then please----pray that we are all saved and this website is closed down by high-noon tomorrow. Good "luck".

Fundy: "Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy."

Really?..there is "hope" for us? Why thank you, you brainwashed condescending prick. Again, your Gawd is non-existant, and we don't need you and your ilk's petty patronizing pitty. Unless you have evidence for your biblegawd, I suggest you don't come back.

Fundy: "Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be saf......blah, blah, blah, BLAH, BLAHHH!"

Boy-0-boy, how original.. Pascal's Wager... or, believe "just in case". That shows just how little confidence you have in your mythological conviction, which is surprising for all the ministering you've been doing.

posted: September 04, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

What I see here, through all your picking and complaining...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man. I expect that from someone who says that there is no God...that there is no creator of the universe etc....

However it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God, from those who are convinced there is no Eternal Father, the Lord God.

And it will continue till the end of times. And it will get worse until then.

So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it.

As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it.

AS for prayers....
The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?

I will work on this. Take care. And by the way I do hope this site stays up..because it is easier to find you all. LOL!

posted: September 05, 2006 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Fundonymous said: "What I see here, through all your picking and complaining...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man."

What I see here is person who has become all shocked and indignant because an EX-Christian website has people who don't believe in Christ.(WTF?) Go grab a twelvepack of beer and head down to your local AA affiliate and see if you are received with a warm welcome. Tell them that they are "misinterpreting" the warning label, and the reason that they've lost their jobs, family, houses, and everything else, is because they haven't been drinking "Godweiser"---the only "true" alcoholic beverage.

Fundymouse said: "So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it."

Please provide evidence for this absurd notion.

Fundonymous said: "As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it."

Yes, you are "convinced" and "feel strongly", just like any Sunni Muslim is convinced and feels strongly about Muhammad. Now convince us, with empirical evidence, that he's wrong and you are right.

Fundymouse said: "AS for prayers....
The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?"

A "sign"? Hell no, I want him to appear, IN THE FLESH---like he appeared to "hundreds" of people 2000 years ago---then, being the "miracle working all-loving God" Jesus is, I want him to go to St. Jude's Children's hospital and put it out of business, completely healing every child in there, so they can all go home with their parents where they belong. I won't hold my breath, though.

posted: September 05, 2006 EST  

 J. C. Samuelson wrote:

"What I see here...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man."

Heaping ridicule on an idea is not the same as personal animosity. I have no animosity toward you personally. You might be the nicest person in the world. Your faith is your choice, and I have no problem with that either.

You came to a site which is filled with former believers, who have already heard or spoken the same words you have hundreds - perhaps thousands - of times. Combined with the continual barrage of nonsense provided courtesy of T.V. evangelists, family members and friends, the Internet, and of course the endless stream of Christian posters on this website, it gets pretty tiresome. Strong reactions are highly likely. Reading more of the threads could've told you this, and perhaps informed you of a better approach, or warned you not to approach at all.

"...it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God..."

You are not being persecuted.

persecute(v)
1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) Merriam-Webster

No one here harassed you. No one here is punishing you in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict you. If you are suffering because we've disagreed, then I'd suggest growing a thicker skin.

When your ideas are being criticized, it is not persecution. When you are censored, restricted, and/or physically harmed in order to inhibit your practice of your faith or because of it, that's persecution.

"The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?"

Signs, signs, everywhere a sign...

Well, to hear Evangelicals tell it, all any of us has to do is wait about 50 years or so. Then Jesus Christ will make a miraculous appearance in the clouds, coming down to Rapture His church away - or kick off the Tribulation, I forget. All this with no prayers required!

posted: September 05, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

By that time it will be too late. I was speaking of a sign that will undoubtedly make you believe before the end comes.

Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)

When you speak of the one and only God, with such lack and reverence thereof... others, like I, hold so dear to our hearts, because of the Love we have for the Lord. It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces.

I know this is a long shot...BUT..
Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?
I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world.

And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world? You know typically most people cry out to the Lord at that point. Because they know that is all they can do.

Just curious.
By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord.

I know alot of people who don't believe in God..I just never saw it put like this is all.

posted: September 05, 2006 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

Anonymous,

This is a private website with a clearly stated purpose. Have you read the site disclaimer?

Regardless, what you've done here is barge in the door and begin to aggressively preach. You've basically crashed a private party that is being held in a public park. Then, after setting up your pulpit in that party, one of the people who was invited to the party rebuked your rudeness.

Now, how in the world is being rebuked for rudeness persecution? I guess if I were to crash your church on Sunday morning, and start disrupting the service, and as a result was thrown out of the building, then I could claim persecution too.

Seriously, don't play the persecution card unless you're actually being persecuted for your religion. There are people in the world suffering persecution for their religion, but there is no such thing as persecution in America. There are chruches on every corner, preachers on every television channel and religious books overflowing every bookstore. Don't mistake rejection of your religion by someone, or even loathing of your religion by someone, as persecution, because it is NOT persecution.

However, if you'd like to be persecuted, please go to a country where religion dominates the government, like in the Middle East, and start preaching. I'm sure that there you'll find the persecution you're looking for.

posted: September 06, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

So thanks for the breakdown on persecution.
As far as barging in, I was surfing the net when I came across your site.
I found it interesting is all.
I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?
I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical.
photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo.
Clearly it is down out of hatred.

Jeff was giving me feedback is all.
I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good.

posted: September 06, 2006 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

"I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."

The same reason they leave any false cult for good.

posted: September 06, 2006 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

Anony: "I found it interesting is all. I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"

Do you believe in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? More notably, the portion that prohibits the federal legislature from making laws that...

1-Establish a state religion or prefer certain religion (the "Establishment Clause");

2-Prohibit free exercise of religion (the "Free Exercise Clause");

3-Infringe the freedom of speech;

4-Infringe the freedom of the press;

5-Limit the right to assemble peaceably;

Now, obviously, if religionists use their guaranteed first amendment, specifically, the number two freedom above, to attack the entire U.S. citizenry's right to first amendment freedoms, then don't you think that it is at a minimum - hypocritical. A religionist using their freedom of speech to deny everyone elses'. The really diabolical insight, is seeing the unrestrained search for power by entire religious organizations, in order to control others.

Anony: "I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical."

Well... flesh peeling off of a pregnant woman being burned on a stake/pole as a "witch", using the Old Testament for support, in order for christian leaders to cleanse them of their diabolical demon that just has to be there, would be more sickening... Even more sickening, is hearing someone use the OT to show their support of such atrocities.

Anony: "photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo."

Immorality? That's what the majority vote discerns. What may be considered "moral", might well, not be "right".

For instance, its against the law to give medication prescribed by a doctor to another person who has the same medical needs, even if the other person doesn't have the money/means to acquire the exact same medication.

Its "moral" to follow the law, is it not? Is it "right", to watch a little child die in agonizing pain, in order to be moral? What is considered "morally" right, by a majority of people, or by a legislature, doesn't make it "right". One would hope, that the two would meet somewhere, e.g., the law, and what is right. Perhaps, courts were created to find a middle ground.

Anony: "I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."

I'd like to know, why you don't believe in Santa Clause as a real figure who involves themselves in your life, on a yearly basis.

posted: September 08, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here.
St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when.
So most children have fun with that idea. I did. The fake Santa is just a festive fun thing. Then you get older and your parents tell you it was a child thing. So what?

God is much different. There is no comparrison. That is rediculous to even insinuate.

Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus.
Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society.

Many peope don't get out of cults. They are so weak minded that they are trapped in their own mind.
I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that.
Free will is the gift.

The bottom line is you and I are by free will excersing our gift.
But in the end only one will win.

So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?

posted: September 09, 2006 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Fundonymous said: "St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint."

Um, evidently, you don't grasp the "Santa" analogy, do you?. I know twenty Mexicans named "Jesus", so-the-f%ck what?.....people named "Jesus" are "real" people...SO?...that doesn't mean that the biblical Jesus did miracle, one, let alone that he is a "God". So your little "history of Santa" is totally irrelevant.

Fundonymous: "Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."

Listen up, Einstein---currently, your President is a Christ-sucker just like you, as well as the Senate and House being mostly right-wing conservatives(And I don't mean ISLAMIC conservative). Anyway, please tell me---how is THAT "communist"?

Fundonymous: "Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."

Anon---just the fact that you lump Atheists in with devil worship shows that you have zero clue what Atheism even means. People who worship a man with horns and a pitchfork are wasting just as much time as people who worship a man nailed to a stick. It's ALL mythology---legendary "thinking". And your assertion that Atheists make, um...a "more sicker society"? I don't see any evidence of that, but I certainly see evidence that religious people make a "more stupider" society ;)

posted: September 09, 2006 EST  

 J. C. Samuelson wrote:

"I was speaking of a sign that will undoubtedly make you believe before the end comes."

I think I've posted this elsewhere, but essentially God Himself would have to appear in such a way that the appearance could be independently verified by a very large and diverse number of people, including scientific and governmental organizations.

However, that would not eliminate questions. The God described in the Bible exhibits behavior that could easily be described as petty and tyrannical. Perhaps if Oprah could interview God?

"Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)"

Where is this implied? If you're talking about the mildly hostile reception you received, that in no way implies you will be prohibited from posting. At least, not that I know of.

"It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces."

It may be easy to say, but that doesn't make it true. It's easy for me to say that Christianity
teaches hatred, but that doesn't make it true.

This is not an anti-God or anti-Christ site. That all-or-nothing or 'if-you-aren't-for-us' attitude fails to take into account that many here simply lack belief, and/or feel that religion is a pastime of limited use, or worse. In other words, if this site is anti- anything, it's anti-Christianity.

And what examples can you provide that a lack of belief in God breeds 'diabolical forces.'?

"Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?"

No. Such myths have no basis or application in the real world.

"I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world."

Evil forces might include those that commit acts of mass murder, such as genocide, for any reason. Other evil forces might include those that seek to take away or restrict basic human freedoms, such as the freedom of religion or of speech. That includes religions or speech that we don't agree with (within reason).

Incidentally, I think it's safe to say that no one here would advocate legislating your right to believe or speak as you wish away from you. Again, within reason.

"And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world?"

Well, assuming I'm capable of rational thought, I'll be thinking about my life, hoping that I've been able to leave a positive legacy for my daughter and others to follow. I don't fear death itself or what, if anything, might come after.

"...typically most people cry out to the Lord..."

That's a very sweeping statement, and of dubious merit. Most Christians or those raised in a Christian culture may do that, or perhaps think about doing so. Those raised in societies in with other majority beliefs probably don't. This is a significant number of people (between 4 and 5 billion, I think).

By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord."

Yes you did, and I think we understand that. However, if you were hoping that it would be in some way persuasive in leading us back to your faith or lend greater credulity to your arguments, you were mistaken.

"I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"

If you're referring to the influence of the devil or demons, I'd say no because outside the Bible there's no indication such things exist. If you are implying something else, please be clear.

As for devil worshippers, I don't know if any have posted here or not. Chances are at some point one or more of the visitors to the site have been or still are devil worshippers. All the same, if they started posting about the reality of the devil they would likely be treated to the same level of skepticism as any Christian.

To believe in the devil is to give credulity to the Christian Bible (and some other religious texts), which is something most here probably wouldn't do.

"Clearly it is down out of hatred."

To which items are you referring? Have you considered the possibility that some of the items were done simply in order to poke fun?

"I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here."

Which points? In any case, everyone will have a different answer for why they don't believe or left the faith. In other words, it's subjective. So, if you were hoping for one catch-all answer for everyone, your hope was in vain.

St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when."

Many - not all - myths have some basis in real events and/or people. That doesn't diminish the fact that they are myths, though. Santa Clause is a myth, plain and simple.

"God is much different. There is no comparrison."

I would agree. There is even less basis for a belief in God, because there is no evidence such an entity has ever existed to by mythologized in the same manner as St. Nicholas. The only 'evidence' that every Christian can point to with agreement is the Bible, which is a book written, handled, transmitted, and translated by human hands, and full of mythological imagery.

Any individual witnesses to God's reality based on personal experience is at best anecdotal. Since such things are highly subjective (because they are so personal), none of it can ever be independently verified.

We may be able to measure brain activity that correlates to certain religious practices (such as prayer), but since this brain activity occurs whether one is a Christian or a Hindu this isn't evidence for God. All it proves is that religious practice in some way influences, or is influenced by, physical responses in the brain.

"Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."

Governments are corrupt because money and power corrupts, not because of a particular ideology. Our government is corrupt and most of the top officials profess Christianity as their faith.

By the way, which decade are you living in? Communist influence? C'mon...

"Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."

They do? Ever been to Sweden? How about Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, South Korea, France or Germany, Britain, Canada, or Israel? Each of these societies is in the Top 20 places in the world in which people claim/admit to atheism or agnosticism. See here.

Admittedly, there are some countries in the list that suffer from poverty or are governed by morally corrupt governments. However, this isn't necessarily a reflection on the people who live there. Vietnam, for example, suffers from poverty brought on by Socialism, and is ruled with more or less an iron fist. However, my father has visited several times and speaks mostly about the friendliness and strong family-oriented psychology of the people themselves.

Also see Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies for some interesting reading. Of course, correlation doesn't imply causation, but it's still eye-opening.

"I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that."

Religious adherents are willing participants in their own entrapment, whether it is within a cult or what is considered a mainstream religion. They are free to leave any time they wish, but usually don't wish to. That's the beauty of brainwashing.

"But in the end only one will win."

Life is a competition for survival perhaps, not about who is right.

"So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?"

Not in the least. I admit I would prefer to die in my sleep rather than by violent means, but I don't fear death itself.

posted: September 09, 2006 EST  

 Shannon wrote:

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

posted: September 09, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

This was good info, thanks JC. And I appreciate you putting it kindly.
That is kind of Christian of you to say the least. (no offense)
Or just good of you to say the most.

What have you to say of Voodoo?
My finance is from Hati, and he has witnessed many forms of diobolical forces....such as seeing men turn into animals and the walking dead.
Have you been to countries like this that practice Voodoo?
Isn't this demonic forces / dark forces prevailing on earth?

The photos I have found here are more then just poking fun of Jesus Christ though...I think... it is more like gross to me.

Re: death
One day I passed out, but did not loose total conciousness. It was the most strangest thing I ever felt. My body was not able to move, my eyes were shut and I could not open them either...I became extremely panicked...I relised that I had no control over my life..I surrendered..then I relised a tremendous peace came over me...I couldn't help but think of God..I equate this to the body is seperate from the soul.
What you to say about this type of expereince? Ever hear of it?

The Bible.
I have noticed that man has made the same mistakes over and over again in the history of the Bible applied to today and throughout history since we have had the Bible.
This includes trying to have a society that excludes God or doesn't beleive in the exsistence in a divine God.the consequences always end up with us being destroyed or chastised.
Do you find this just a coincidence?
Many have taken the Bible as a guideline to life and it has seemd to be helpful in how to live a better life. Like the book of Proverbs for instance.

Where does a ex Christian learn from to live a positive life and what does that life consist of?
And what is that life like?

Thanks for all your input again.

posted: September 16, 2006 EST  

 Dennis wrote:

I have really enjoyed these posts.
I can answer the last question. I dont believe in any god, im 53 years old, and as I was growing up, my parents, experiences, and my ongoing vision of life have taught me what is right, wrong, good, bad, and so on. I firmly believe, that you don't have to believe in god to be a good person. Just as some are mechanically inclined, some are inclined to be good to themselves and others, without having to constantly refer to a manual. One's comon sense should be sufficient by the time they reach adulthood.

posted: September 18, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

But would believing in the one and only God of the Bible make your life worse?
Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets? And then it would be to late?
What harm does it bring to you to believe?

posted: September 18, 2006 EST  

 Shannon wrote:

Which god? There are almost 5,000 historical gods and just in the United States, alone, there are around 600 different Christian denominations. If we are going to do this ‘just in case’ and put all our soul into one basket – which god should we choose? Do we pander to the god who has the worst hell or would it be better to pucker up to the god who has the best heaven? Or maybe we should pick the god that has a work release program – where we can work off lesser sins in purgatory yet eventually work our way into heaven. That way we could have some fudging room in this life for personal sin – whore, drink, smoke. You know, those kinds of things.

Never mind.

posted: September 18, 2006 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Anony asked: "But would believing in the one and only God of the Bible make your life worse?"

......::yawn::......

Okay, firstly, there is zero evidence for the existance of ANY deity, let alone the X-ian biblegod. If you have said evidence, let's hear it.(hopefully you won't be an amateur and put forth the bible as "evidence".) Secondly, yes, going through life believing a lie can make your life "worse". If on your "death bed" your signifigant other tells you that they never really loved you, and in fact, loved someone else, it would be bad---especially when you saw the "signs"(evidence) early on, but chose to ignore it ; ) So again, going through life believing a lie can make life "worse".

Anony then asked: "Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets?"

Yes, yes, we know---believe "just in case", right? Okay, so then shouldn't YOU believe in EVERY God?....just in case you have "faith" in the wrong one?

You're welcomed to try and make it make logical sense if you'd like. Let's hear it.

posted: September 18, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

WEll all I can say is I hope you will get the sign that you need to prove to you the only God of The Bible exsists.
That is what I wish for you to have. And I believe in prayer because of my personal experiences and miracles, In my own way, I will continue to pray for you get one too.

Have a great winter season.

posted: September 22, 2006 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Anony---A schizophrenic might "believe" the CIA implanted a chip in their head, as to keep tabs on their whereabouts at all times. This is their "personal experience". Like the schizo, you are entitled to your personal belief, yet, it says nothing about reality. Prayer is usless. You are wasting your time, hence your life, performing such rituals.

Have a great winter, spring, summer, autumn delusion.

posted: September 22, 2006 EST  

 Bentley wrote:

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

posted: September 22, 2006 EST  

 Bentley wrote:

Proof there is no God, Part II

If God was around before you where born, how come you never talked to God until after you were born?

Do you think your father or mother had Jesus and your eternal salvation on their minds at the exact moment of insemination (your fathers orgasm) into your mother?

The only place a God or Jesus exists is in your mind, you're just repeating things you've heard other monkeys repeat, and by repetition and indoctrination.

Now, I can prove to you that God and Jesus only exists in the conscious living brain, this also all manmade envisioned entities.

1. God and Jesus disappear when you are asleep, (where do they go?)

2. God and Jesus disappear when you are unconscious, (where do they go?)

3. God and Jesus disappear when you're under anesthesia during surgery, (where do they go?)

4. All Gods and saviors disappear when the mind is unconscious.

5. Therefore, all Gods and saviors and manmade entities disappear, when the mind is dead.

6. All the things that you've been told to believe, will disappear when you are dead.

You might as well learn it now, so get over with talking to yourself, and calling it from a God, its just your mind repeating just what it wants yourself to hear.

posted: September 22, 2006 EST  

 Shannon wrote:

Anony 9/22/2006 2:59 PM

I don’t generally express myself with out and out potty language but sometimes… You are speaking of an all-powerful being and all we can expect is a fucking sign? I don’t want a fucking sign, man; I want a tangible-fleshy-in-person greeting. At any time your god feels frisky enough, I’ve got a functioning doorbell.

Although I don’t think I’d like him to come visit anyway; he’s not a ‘person’ I’d really like know. Plain and simple, your god is asshole. Re: If there is someone who can step in (at no risk of his/hers own person) and help someone else who is being raped, murdered, or injured but doesn’t he/she is an asshole.

All your god does is watch.

He watches children starve.

He watches children die of cancer.

He watches children being molested.

He watches children being murdered.

He watches the innocent being used, abused and neglected.

He just watches.

It’s like he’s not there.

It’s like he doesn’t existed at all.

The concept of a loving, benevolent god is not just intellectually bankrupt but it is a full-body insult.

posted: September 22, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Thank you Shannon!!

posted: September 24, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

God doesn't need to show himself to anybody, our world and universe has left fingerprints.

It's automatic, if you don't believe in God, then you must believe we all evolved from something ( how you people argue how something came from nothing, i'll never understand ). But open your eyes, look around.. It's like people are trying to proof a tornado flew through a junkyard, and formed an airport, planes and stores inside. That's how foolish you people are.

Just research the human eye, or heart. They did not come from random process.

I just pray you will not stop searching for God, even if you don't believe.. God wants you to believe in Him, but first you must search.

posted: October 05, 2006 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Evolution: Random processes create life. The universe has existed for 30 billion years, during which time all life evolved by random processes.

Creation: Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years. The simplest protein that can be termed "living" has 400 components.
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Evolution: Sexual reproduction came about by evolution

Creation: Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems. If one system wasn't complete or compatible, the species would become extinct.
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Evolution: Species evolve from other species

Creation: There are no fossils of transitional life forms. Organisms have never been found to cross the boundaries between species

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evolution is science fiction, it's man's view on how life started, yet overwhelming evidence points to a creator.

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