I fully agree with Jim on this. As a Scientist and bedraggled refugee from the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church I wonder why so many people still believe this religious bullshit. Why are kids introduced to a book of fables and fiction that is not suitable for anyone under 18 years of age. Why are they not taught science from the first day of school. Then they will realise the bible is bullshit. Of course the United Christian States of America is full of people whose brains have been poisoned by Christianity and can't see through the lies of Christianity. They believe those bible thumping televangalsts, many who are lying deceiving crooks. We all know who they are. Benny Hinn just left Australia with his pockets lined with more millions of dollars.

Americans, wake up to this religious crap and see that it is abolished. Get rid of those stupid bibles. Learn some science.

Thanks for posting this, Jim. I've made similar comments in other posts.

Education in the basic criteria and foundation of science should be taught to children in GRADE school. Instead, what ends up happening is kids are taught about different facets of science but they aren't instructed as to the principles of what constitutes scientific theory, at least in my experience. What happens then is the kids who go on to science and science related careers understand the rigorous standards employed by science and the rest never learn this--unless it is something they choose learn on their own.

It's imperative that we teach our children exactly what constitutes genuine science. Science has made so many strides and has become so complex that it risks alienating the general population who often want trite, simple, sound-bite explanations for things. We need the public to understand why accepting certain theories like evolution isn't about 'having faith' similar to religion. It's about understanding that a workable scientific theory isn't just a hunch or a guess and that MANY people contribute to a scientific theory. What so many in the general public seem to misunderstand is that no one is going to come along and supply us with a better theory (which the public seems to assume means 'guess') as to how life as we know it came to be than evolution. It would take YEARS and YEARS of observation and meticulous data to even begin to challenge something like evolution.

That being said, here's one of my favorite commentaries mocking the publics' mis-perception of the word 'theory':

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512

Right on Jim.

Whenever I talk to the mindless, religious, drones and how they are misinformed about evolution, I just paste and re-paste this:

Once again your lack of knowledge and your ignorance astounds me. Science is totally based on fact. Go back to school and learn something. Facts are the world's data and scientists conduct empirical research through observation to explain the realities before them. In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." Science makes no claim to perpetual truth, only the religious do.
The scientific method, let's review,
1. Make an observation.
2. Make an hypothesis. This is the part you get confused; that all of science is best guesses. A hypothesis is an educated guess used to render a tentative description of what was observed.
3. Make a prediction.
4. Test those predictions with experiments or more observation.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theories and experiment.
6. Construct, formulate, support or cast doubt on a scientific theory.

SCIENTIFIC THEORY, also confuses you with the word theory.

A theory in science is not a guess, speculation, or suggestion, which is the popular definition of the word "theory." A theory, therefore, is built of reliable knowledge--built of scientific facts--and its purpose is to explain major natural processes or phenomena. Scientific theories explain nature by unifying many once-unrelated facts or corroborated hypotheses; they are the strongest and most truthful explanations of how the universe, nature, and life came to be, how they work, what they are made of, and what will become of them. Since humans are living organisms and are part of the universe, science explains all of these things about ourselves.
These scientific theories--such as the theories of relativity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, evolution, genetics, plate tectonics, and big bang cosmology--are the most reliable, most rigorous, and most comprehensive form of knowledge that humans possess. Thus, it is important for every educated person to understand where scientific knowledge comes from, and how to emulate this method of gaining knowledge. Scientific knowledge comes from the practice of scientific thinking--using the scientific method--and this mode of discovering and validating knowledge can be duplicated and achieved by anyone who practices critical thinking. -- Steven Schafersman

Feel free, to paste, to any ignorant, religious, creationist.

--S.

I hate to have to nit-pick but Jim said If it is not beneficial, it is eliminated very quickly. This is NOT true. Neutral mutations can and do exist for extended periods of time in the genome. It is detremental mutations that get eliminated quickly - the speed depends upon the penalty paid for having that mutation.

My experience has been not that these Xtians are ignorant, they are WILLFULLY ignorant. That is, they refuse to acknowledge the facts even after being presented with them. I'm increasingly disappointed in our education system. I teach only an hour of evolution class in my "Introduction to Biology" for biology majors. How is this going to counter 20 years of daily sermons on creationism?

SG

I am a practising physician in Pennsylvania. Just this morning I met a little girl with Patau Syndrome a trisomy 13 chromosomal abnormality. The little girl is born with many physical deformities. Mutations are deadly. It is stupid to think that new organisms arise through their assistance. I used to be an evolutionist before going to medical school. Now I believe in Creationism and what God told us in the Bible. Peace. Respect science and trash Darwinism.

DrFleming wrote:
I am a practising physician in Pennsylvania...... ..Respect science and trash Darwinism
----
Any practising 'physician' who would trash such a VALID branch of science, would have me questioning what other branches of (medical) science he might also disregard, when treating a patient.

The little girl is born with many physical deformities. Mutations are deadly. It is stupid to think that new organisms arise through their assistance

So you're basing the results of millions of years of all kinds of mutations taking place, on the few "deadly" mutations you've managed to experience in your few short decades of time on this earth, is that correct, 'doctor' ?
Therefore, your conclusion defies the overwhelming majority opinion of the world's scientists, who come from many branches of science.
In the place of evolution, you invent a god being that created everything, per your 2000 year old story book?

Perhaps 'Dr Fleming' you skip prescribing medicine for your patients and instead recommend a few prayers to your god, yes?
Now if you don't use prayer and actually hand out drugs to your patients, then you are not only using the tools-of-human-science to cure people, but wouldn't that also be defying god's will in the process?
If it were god's will for your patients to be cured, then god would surely find it in his 'heart' to cure them, all without your intervention or drugs invented by mere mortals.

Who knows, maybe the drugs you hand out as samples, were actually invented by a non-godly humans, who obtained that drug's formula directly from the Devil himself.
Then you would be curing your patients with the power of the devil and not the power of your blessed god.

Maybe you should stick with praying over your patients, then send them for a 'second opinion', where a non-xtian doctor could prescribe the devil-drugs to your patients.


ATF (Who has to wonder what gives xtians the 'right' to accept the benefits from some of HUMAN science, while simultaneously rejecting other equally valid parts with such great ease)

I'm with you Dr. Flemming.

Some of these people should read Michael Behe's two books "Darwin's Black Box" and "The Edge of Evolution".

Common descent is a fact based on the fossil record but Darwin's theory is NOT supported by this fossil record. Darwin had no idea of the underlying complexity of living organisms. The elegance and coherence of the microscopic world that allows our body's to function simply did not come by chance.

I find it quite upsetting to think that I was taught this ridiculous theory almost as “fact” during my formative years. And worse, that this theory raised my doubts on the existence of a creator for so many years. I am no longer agnostic and I thank God for letting out of that lie.

From my perspective “Science Goddess”, it’s atheists that are willfully ignorant.

I guess atheist and theists will have to agree to disagree.

If atheist are right, I won’t be able discuss it with you on the “other side”. If Christians are right, I probably still won’t be able to discuss it with you on the “other side”.

It’s always good to discuss, here’s hoping we can do it again on the other side!

Hey phlegming,
coughing up more bullshit, aren't you?

Do you also believe what your god said, in the Bible, about healing people?

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up." -- James 5:14-15

"The Lord ... healeth all thy diseases" -- Psalms 103:2-3

"And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians."
-- 2 Chronicles 16:12

Is this how you "PRACTISE" medicine in Pennsylvania -- is this how you do ALL YER DOCTRIN' AND SUCH? Did you pray over the little girl with Patau Syndrome, and tell her don't go to a physician, because the lord will fix her right up -- good as new, just like what god says, in the bible?

Or is your god punishing that little girl, because she did not do that which is right in the sight of the lord?

"If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee." Exodus 15:26

And you know your dumb ass god wouldn't let that little girl in his church because she was deformed, because it says it in the bible.

"Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries."
-- Leviticus 21:17-23

I'm not sure what you and your god are "PRACTISIN", but it sure, as hell, isn't SCIENCE.

--S.

Here is the disclaimer from the university where Behe teaches:

"While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally and should not be regarded as scientific."

His two books "Darwin's Black Box" and "The Edge of Evolution", with all his methods and conclusions were categorically rejected by the scientific community and highly criticized by actual scientists in the field of evolutionary biology. they concur that behe's ideas and his "science" was based solely on an argument from ignorance.

No wonder why IGNORANT, BRAINLESS, RELIGIOUS, DRONES FLOCK TO BEHE.

--S.

Here's more on Behe: CLICK HERE

Hei, Science Goddess! Delighted to make the acquaintance of a fellow deity. ;-)

I agree with you on the 'willfully ignorant' part. Science is, by its very nature, devoted to examining new data and refining hypotheses and theories to accommodate that data. It is, over the long run, self-correcting.

It absolutely baffles me how anyone could seriously examine the world around us and then attribute it to the inconsistent, violent, egotistical and outright stupid god of the Bible.

(BTW, have any of you IDiots actually read Darwin's Origin of Species? All the way through? I, Myself, am currently doing just that. I'm barely through the introduction, but in the preliminary historical notes Darwin makes it very clear that he was not the first person to reject speciation-by-individual-creation. It was rather a hot topic in the middle of the 19th century.)

"DrFleming wrote:

"I am a practising physician in Pennsylvania."

Sure you are. And I'm a Ferryboat Captain in Riga, Latvia. Oh, I'm the Pope's illegitimate child, too. And I was born of a virgin.

*wonders if Dr.Fleming understands that he's insulting the very physicians who brought him into this world and cared for him in sickness (risking their own (mostly atheist) lives to do so by exposing themselves to others' sickness) by claiming that someone as unintelligent as he is a physician*

This kind of fraud and deceit, I find very disingenious, as it not only hurts the reputations of medical doctors, but those of the very christians the fraudster wishes to help. What a disgusting, repulsive lot the religious are!

Jim G. said: “First the theory is not politically based. Like all scientific theory, it is based on observation of data.”

This is the single most important point to get across to deniers, IMHO. It is the starting point for denialist lies concerning evolutionary science. They like to frame evolution as a belief, putting it on a par with whatever belief system they espouse.

The fact is; evolutionary science comes from the same method, the same tradition, the same practices as every other scientific endeavor that they enjoy the fruits of today, including medical technology, avionics, telecommunications and many others. All of those things are no more fact-based than evolutionary theory.

I’ve always said that if you believe that evolution is “just a theory” then you probably shouldn’t go to the doctor, because chances are, your doctor just assumes that infectious diseases are caused by bacteria and viruses, otherwise known as “germ theory.” Ha! Another “theory” that hasn’t been “proven”!

Mr.Flemming,I find it hard to believe that you are a person having taken "The Oath". I will"abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption.Whatever in connection with it, I see or hear in the live of men which ought not be spoke of abroad,I will not divulge as reckoning that all should be kept secret." !!! Who you meet and their complaint IS NOT information for a blog!!! Physicians treat,teach and give their "opinion" when ASKED.Please if anyone on this site asked "DR.Flemming" for his opinion ,correct me.Your spiritual health is your own,DO NOT "inject" it into anyone else......FIRST DO NO HARM....Your disrespect of other people's spiritual health and FREEDOM is disgusting!I am a recovering victim of Christianity's Stockholm Syndrome.YOU are perpetuating that victimization of the human race,with your opinion.If YOU have the courage,post your Licensed identity,so that I may inform the proper authorities.Or if you prefer you can e-mail me at dnance8494@yahoo.com.There are many people that suffer daily from the physical,emotional,and psychological abuse that xians inflict upon non-xians.All in the name of their "god".It is spiritual poison,therefore I demand you turn in your medical license for "prescribing a lethal poison" something you SWORE in the name of the "Almighty" not to do!!!!I guess swearing an "oath" to the POISON absolves the poisoner of all culpability.May reciprocity be yours in all that you do! HappyChef

“Billions of years ago, a big bang produced a large rock. As the rock cooled, sweet brown liquid formed on it’s surface. As time passed, aluminum formed itself into a can, a lid, and a tab. Millions of years later, red and white paint fell from the sky and formed itself into the words “Coca Cola… 12 fluid ounces.”

Of course my theory is an insult to your intellect, because you know that if the Coca Cola can is made, there must be a maker. If it is designed, there must be a designer. The alternative, that it happened by chance or accident is to move from the intellectual free zone.

Here is another:

“The Banana: The Atheist Nightmare”

Note that the banana…

1. is shaped for the human hand.

2. has a non-slip surface.

3. Has outward indicators of it’s inward contents. Green - too early, yellow - just right, black - too late.

4. Has a tab for removal of it’s wrapper.

5. Is perforated on wrapper.

6. Has a bio-degradable wrapper.

7. Is shaped for the human mouth.

8. Has a point at the top for ease of entry.

9. Is pleasing to the taste buds.

10. Is curved towards the face to make the eating process easy.

To write that the banana happened by accident is even more unintelligent than to write that no one designed the Coca Cola can.

Test 1.

The person who thinks the Coca Cola can has no designer is:

A. Intelligent

B. A fool

C. Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious

Now the document that I am referring from states that the eye has 40,000,000 nerve endings and focuses it’s muscles approximately 100,000 times a day. and that the eye has a retina that contains approximately 137,000,000 light sensitive cells.

The document continues and states that Charles Darwin stated:

“To suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree” Agreed… it does not have the reference recorded so I do not know if this statement is true or false. But let me get to the point at hand.

If man can not create the human eye then how can anyone in their right mind believe that it was created by chance? In fact… man can’t create anything from nothing… we just do not know how to do it. We can re-create, reform, develop… but we can not create one grain of sand from nothing. Yet the human eye… is a mere tiny part of the most sophisticated part of creation - the human body.

Again… another statement which I would have to research and verify if this person actually made this comment:

“George Gallup; “If I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity.”

Now this statement concerning Albert Einstein. This is confusing… why would this man contradict himself? If he stated this… then every other statement that has been quoted at this forum is invalid because the man appears to be speaking from both sides of his mouth. In this statement Einstein is quoted to have said:

“Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe - a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of our modest powers must feel humble.”

Test 2:

1. Do you know any building that did not have a builder? Yes? No?

2. Do you know any painting that did not have a painter? Yes? No?

3. Do you know any car that did not have a maker? Yes? No?

If you answered “Yes” to any of those statements… please give details:______________________…

Third analogy:

Could I convince you that I dropped 50 oranges onto the ground and then by chance fell into ten rows of five oranges? Logically, anyone with an intelligent mind might conclude that someone put them there. The odds that ten oranges would fall into a straight line is mind boggling. Let alone ten rows of five.

Test 3

Yes or No 1. From the atom to the universe is there order?

Yes or No 2. Did it happen by accident or must there been an intelligent mind?

3. What are the odds of 50 oranges falling by chance into ten rows of five oranges? ______________________________…

To declare that there is no God is to make an absolute statement. And for an absolute statement to be true; one must have absolute knowledge. Here is another such statement: “There is no gold in China.”

Test 4 What would I need to have for that statement to be true?

A. No knowledge of China?

B. Partial knowledge of China?

C. Absolute knowledge of China?

“C” is the correct answer. In order for the statement to be true, I must know that there is no gold in China.

Likewise; to state that there is no God and to be correct then you are stating that you are omniscient. You must have absolutely certain knowledge that there isn’t one.

Let’s say that a circle contains all the knowledge of the universe. And let’s say that you have an incredible understanding of one percent of all that knowledge. Is it possible that the knowledge you haven’t yet come across, that there might be ample evidence to prove that God does indeed exist?

If you are reasonable, you would have to admit, “Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is no God.” In other words, you don’t know if God exists, so you are not an atheist. You are an “agnostic.” You are like a person that looks at a building and doesn’t seem to know if there is a builder.

Test 5 The man who sees a building and doesn’t know if there is a builder is:

A. Intelligent

B. A fool

C. Has an ulterior motive

In summary: There are plenty of things that we have faith in that we do not fully understand. Most of us do not have a complete understanding that when you turned your computer on as to why it worked. You took a step of faith that turning it on… that somehow that it would work. You accept the unseen electrical waves that appear right in front of your eyes when you type your comments here. We do not see the reason for why the messages appear… because the powers that be are invisible to the naked eye. For them to be manifest, we need a monitor… so we can enjoy the experience of this forum.

God is not flesh and blood; He is an eternal Spirit. Immortal and invisible… like the computer waves. He can can not be experienced unless the monitor is turned on. One should approach the Bible in the same way as the monitor. If it works, enjoy it and if it doesn’t, forget it.

Or do you have an ulterior motive? Could it be that the “atheist” can’t find God… as a thief can’t find the policeman? Could it be that your logic is clouding your good judgment?”

(sighs heavily) Oh, great... Yet another CameronComfortClown in the house.

"God is not flesh and blood; He is an eternal Spirit."

Prove it.

For that matter, start by proving that "spirit" exists. You may not, under any circumstances, cite the Bible or any other book of religious doctrine; you must adhere to the Scientific Method, and your results must be consistent through duplicate experiments done by other parties.

"Most of us do not have a complete understanding that when you turned your computer on as to why it worked."

Speak for yourself, technoweenie. I wrote a program in FORTRAN when I was ten years old, and knew how to measure resistance with an ohmmeter even before that. Senior tech at several work gigs; taught classes in system administration and hardware repair. Just because someone doesn't know... Doesn't automatically mean that nobody knows.

Your "just enjoy the pretty monitor" analogy is nonsense. I do see an apt computer analogy, however... The Bible is the ultimate Blue Screen o' Death, a core dump of badly written legacy code that does not work on the cerebral hardware we currently possess.

Now go stick that banana up your ass and pleasure yourself.

Anonymous,

Have you been trolling non-Christian websites with that Ray Comfort drivel? I see that it's posted verbatim on other sites.

Anyway, regardless of your ability to understand or accept the science of evolution lends nothing one way or the other toward the credibility of your religious myths and legends. In other words, poking holes in scientific theories doesn't make Christianity default to "The Truth." Instead of wasting time trying to roll the advance of science back into the Dark Ages, why not just present positive evidence that your religious deity actually exists? Surely that isn't a difficult task, is it?

As far as the banana thing goes, our cousins in the animal kingdom open the banana from the other end. Bananas open easier from that end as opposed to the "tab" end. Oh, and erect penises are shaped just right for the human hand as well, so I guess it was designed for stroking.

Have a nice day.

Webmaster wrote:
As far as the banana thing goes, our cousins in the animal kingdom open the banana from the other end

Another interesting fact here on banana's.

People actually do open the banana from the wrong end.

If you open it the way our 'cousins' do, then you avoid dealing with all those 'strings' you get when it's peeled the human way.

Also, banana's are not normally yellow either. Humans have made them that way.


ATF (Who thinks this anonymous person...'has gone bananas')

anony, "In fact… man can’t create anything from nothing… we just do not know how to do it."

A man can invent an invisible god out of nothing and he can write a book about his invisible god.


anony, "God is not flesh and blood; He is an eternal Spirit. Immortal and invisible"

No one has seen man's invisible god, yet he can fabricate a whole book of lies describing his invisible god.

Man can create and fabricate lies out of nothing.


So you're totally wrong!

Well break my stones and call me a quarryman ("He loves you/ Yeah, yeah, yeah").

Behe had his day in court. And so did his discreditors; same court. Behe lost, and has been losing ever since.

Steven Bently: "Man can create and fabricate lies out of nothing."


Eel_Shepherd: "Well break my stones and call me a quarryman ('He loves you/ Yeah, yeah, yeah')."

:D Remind Me to buy you two a round of drinks sometime. (And props to ES for the Beatles joke... Them I believe in, despite what John said in the song 'God'.)

We've been studying the Scopes Trial in my 20th century history class. One girl in there is an adamant creationist who told all of us that "evolution says" we are all getting better and better, and that flies in the face of the Bible, which says humanity is constantly becoming more depraved, thus the need for Jesus to return. I was stunned by the ridiculousness of her statement. Before I could raise my hand, my friend told her that evolution has nothing to do with all that, that it simply states that living beings adapt to their environment and that useful mutations are passed along. She added that evolution has nothing to say about the grand progression of human morals. Thank goodness... afterwards, my friend and I discussed how ignorant the adamantly creationist girl truly is. She's devoted herself to undermining a subject she misunderstands (or misrepresents). My friend (a theist) and I (an atheist) agreed it only underscored the need for better science education.

On a side note, she and I both noted that if it hadn't been for an unrequired "Ecology and Evolution" class we both took here in college, we would never have had any education about evolution- ever. We were both top students at average public schools in Indiana.

It boggles the mind, that there are whack-jobs out there who gorge on the shit that ray comfort and that brain-dead, deer in the head lights, kirk cameron vomit out. If they only knew how incredibly shit-brained and ridiculous they looked regurgitating the same dumb-ass crazy, notions tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumb spew.

Hey, dumb-ass anon,

“The Pineapple: The Atheist Nightmare”

Note that the Pineapple…

1. is shaped for the human hand....Whoops, god fucked up.

2. has a non-slip surface..... Nope, kind of prickly!

3. Has outward indicators of it’s inward contents....Wrong, can't tell what the hell is in there.

4. Has a tab for removal of it’s wrapper..... Nope, wrong again.

5. Is perforated on wrapper..... If god only thought to put a zipper in that dumb old pineapple.

6. Has a bio-degradable wrapper..... YEEEEAAAHHHHH.

7. Is shaped for the human mouth......Only if your mouth is shaped like a fish bowl.

8. Has a point at the top for ease of entry..... Wrong-o-roonie.

9. Is pleasing to the taste buds.....If you can get to the sweet center; if god only put a zipper in it.

10. Is curved towards the face to make the eating process easy....Not the pineapple

What was god thinking? What a fucked up design.
What was god thinking when he designed the umbilical cord?
In many cases it is too long and can wrap around the baby's neck, depriving her of precious oxygen, sometimes causing death or brain damage, causing the baby to suffer the rest of her life.

What a fucked up design! god is a shitty fuckin' designer!

Hey anon, time to take your happy pills and let the nurse tuck you in for the night. I know the sound of the locking door is hard on you but get your rest, so you can play cuckoo, tomorrow -- nighty-night.

--S.

In addition to all of this, I've read that Comfort has backed away from the banana argument ("just put the banana down..."), so I wonder whether Anon has even bothered visiting his site. Not to worry, though, Anon - Comfort has plenty of other bat shit crazy ideas you can plagiarize.

Anonymous said:

“Billions of years ago, a big bang produced a large rock. As the rock cooled, sweet brown liquid formed on it’s surface. As time passed, aluminum formed itself into a can, a lid, and a tab. Millions of years later, red and white paint fell from the sky and formed itself into the words “Coca Cola… 12 fluid ounces.”

Sarcastic if not purely idiotic. In the same way I might say that once there was nothing and then suddenly there was a all powerful all intelligent god.

I'll say there's more chance of the coca cola sign.I've seen coca cola signs and know that by some means evolution has produced millions of them via the human hand.

Give me one slight proof of gods' existence that doesn't continuously contradict itself, and I'll believe in him too.

"evolution says" we are all getting better and better

This is another rampant misconception/misrepresentation. Natural selection is not teleological. It has no goal, any more than it's gravity's goal to keep us on the surface of the earth. With natural selection, the best adapted to their environment survive to reproduce. As conditions change, those species best adapted survive, the rest go extinct, which, by the way, has happened to 99.9% of the species that have existed. There is no "better and better" in evolution. You just have to be "good enough" to survive. In fact, the lack of purpose of evolution explains both the vast diversity of life forms and the limits to that diversity.

And then there is the misunderstanding of why complex organisms arose over time. It is not an indicator of "better" or of purpose. More complex organisms tend to have greater abilities to alter their situation into one more favorable (movement, migration, food resources, nest building, mate selection etc.). Once the environmental changes exceed their abilities to conform, they go extinct.

In fact, numerous organisms have become less complex, especially when they inhabit an environment that remains highly constant. The best examples are parasites (internal). Oddly enough, they began to drive the evolution of their host as well.

And the banana example is a perfect example of argument from ignorance. Though the banana may be the oldest cultivated fruit, it's native, wild ancestors were inedible. Humans found the hybridized form edible, and has been selectively breeding them ever since. Selecting them to the point at which the market banana crop is in danger of complete collapse, as the market variety, the Cavendish, are all cloned plants (seedless anyone?) and thus have no genetic diversity. Now the Panama fungus is wiping them out (despite the fact that it was originally selected, despite its poorer flavor and texture, because it was thought to be resistant to the fungus). A designer? You bet. Humans.

(oops, strike that first "despite")

Atheism is a fact-less statement that a supreme being does not exist. This is a belief and is divorced from theory just as a belief in a divine creator is.

I disagree with this statement in the OP.

"there is no God", is the default position, it is the null hypothesis. It is not a belief, or at least in terms of science it is not a belief, it is an assumption. As soon as any evidence to the contrary comes along it is falsified.

BrettR

Evolution is another death blow to fundamentalism -- since fundamentalism is completely dependent on the creation account being factual.

Of course, so was the knowledge that the earth and planets circling the sun... But their collective cognitive dissonance ignores that.

Why? Why is this such a fight? The only rational thing I can think of is that there is a lot of money and control at stake. Certainly there is some reason to still believe even if the creation account is nothing more than metaphor. Perhaps there isn't and that scares people.

/ Offers red pill to any who want it.

Walrus,

Please do not copy and paste entire website pages into the comment section of this blog.

If you have something to say, then say it in your own words. If you have a website you'd like to reference, put a link to it.

Your post has been deleted.

wow... the formatting on that got mangled.

Sorry guys.

Sorry, I meant to quote an earlier post, and for some reason it didn't come out as a quote. I'm new to HTML formatting, if somebody could help me out that'd be great.

I also think you'll find that I was responding to that earlier post in my own words. I apologize once again.

Going to try this again, if it doesn't work, I apologize to the webmaster.

Anonymous claims: "Yes or No 1. From the atom to the universe is there order?"

He then goes on to claim that this order is proof of a divine "builder."

I see it slightly differently.

There are rules, laws that govern the universe. Gravity, the strong and weak force, and electromagnetic force which holds everything together until such time as scientists discover that it’s actually duct tape.

Is there order? Yes. Things are not just made on the whims of a deity who can do whatever he likes. They’re made by force and pressure and time. Strangely, the universe doesn’t conform to the Christian idea that God is not responsible to the rules of logic and the universe, and therefore we should not try to conceive of his omnipotence. Every bit of it follows the same rules, and those rules are conceivable by the human mind. I would argue that the existence of order is disproof of your God, and instead proof that this incredible place we live in was formed simply by the forces that always were, always are, and always will be.