.: posted 2/20/2008 ::: by webmdave :::   

 Anonymous wrote:

Gutsy. Its about time people admit that Xianity's hell and damnation teachings be scrutinized. Religion is treated with kid gloves now, and this needs to stop.

nightflight

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Interesting... Notice how the piece ends: just as Dr. Winell gets into her explaination Sanchez interrupts her, and then, having broken up her train of thought and the continuity of her argument, "runs out of time". They never seem to "run out of time" when a god-shouter is holding forth.

Strange, isn't it...

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

It's the other way around. It is us christians who get censored by the media.

Just look at how they have banned prayer in public schools and how they have removed the ten commandments from public places.

You atheists think that you have it hard? I don't think so. My kind are slowly being censored every single day.

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Spirula wrote:

It is us christians who get censored by the media.

The Media? You mean the same "media" that has a Religion section (and in the US, Religion=Christianity) in virtually every major newspaper? The media that interviews and broadcasts the views of major and minor religious (Christian) leaders after every diaster, who then use that to talk about being "blessed" (aka survivors) or to blame the "secularization" of America for all things tragic? Or do you mean the media that constantly broadcasts the religious views of politicians and the public (via surveys) making it clear that an atheist has virtually no chance of being elected? THAT media?

Just look at how they have banned prayer in public schools and how they have removed the ten commandments from public places.

Oh, I see. You don't know the difference between "media" and court mandated constitutional prohibitions, such as state institutions and tax monies being used to promote religion. For example, the prohibition against putting religious symbols on state property and using public schools to advance a particular religious practice (e.g. having teachers, staff or students leading mandated prayers in the classroom. Which means, by the way, you can prayer your jebus-lovin' heart out, all day, every day, in public schools. You just can't make anyone else do it, like they do in, you know, many Muslim countries).

You atheists think that you have it hard?

I know. Where did we ever get that idea?

Definition

Christian persecution. Whenever a Christian isn't allowed to force other members of society to listen to their beliefs, or conform to their practices and rules.

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 stronger now wrote:

"Just look at how they have banned prayer in public schools..."

No "they" did not. They stopped state mandated school prayer. Kids can still pray on their own if they want to, but the students can no longer be required to by the public shool.

"...they have removed the ten commandments from public places."

Because it's seen as state sponsorship of abrahamic religion and thus unconstitutional. You don't get to use the government as your personal evangelical enforcer.

"My kind are slowly being censored every single day."

In muslim run theocratic states perhaps. You'll have to talk to them about that.

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 black swede wrote:

Don't worry Anonymous, if you want to hear the media talk about your religion more without all of the censorship just watch "FOX NEWS".

You guys get plenty of coverage on there.

As far as you christians who live here in America who keep claiming that you supposedly have it so hard, none of you have anything to wine about really. You all live sheltered lives.

Matter as fact I happen to know a Christian Missionary who lives over in the middle east, and they even said that they are so sick and tired of hearing Christians who live in America wine and cry about how they are so heavily persectued and disrespected.

What do ya think about that Anonymous?

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Fredrick2003 wrote:

Score one for the good guys!

Only good Christian is a dead Christian. I wish I was brave enough to be like this guy.

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Lorena wrote:

The interviewer comes up as a real moron. A Nancy-Grace type of sensationalist journalist. I can't stand him!

Why bother having Dr. Winnell there if he was going to do all the talking. His day job must be car sales.

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Lorena wrote:

"Just look at how they have banned prayer in public schools and how they have removed the ten commandments from public places. "

Please, give me f*ing break! That just means that Christianity's reign is over. It doesn't mean you are being discriminated. It only means that those of you who want the 10 insults posted are discriminating against those who don't want them.

The fact that people's rights are now being respected by not letting Christianity monopolize our lives doesn't mean you are being discriminated. It means that your discrimination of us is coming to and end!

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Lorena Said:
"the 10 insults"

Ok, so you are saying that it is ok to murder? After all it is one of the "10 Insults".

What kind of twisted minded individual are you? Are you insane???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted: February 21, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

Anonymouse, the Ten Commandments are "insults" because any individual with empathy and proper upbringing -- Regardless of religious creed -- already knows that killing and stealing and lying and dissing one's parental units and cheating on one's Significant Other is bad.

In fact, if we did not already possess moral sensibility we would be unable to recognize some of the Ten Commandments as generally good ideas.

But not all of the commandments make sense. How about that 'graven image' one, for instance? Better get rid of that little toad statue in your garden, and rip up that picture of your smiling family that your kindergarten kid brought home. Say goodbye to the Internet, too... Unless you're prepared to surf using the Lynx text-only browser, that is. ;-)

I, Myself am of the opinion that the Ten Commandments were deliberately written to fuck up our unconscious minds and trigger the very behaviours they purport to eliminate. Note that they are written as negations rather than affirmations. It is My understanding that the unconscious mind 'hears' in absolutes and discards negative words.

And what do you get when you take the "not" out of "Thou shalt not kill"?

An explanation for the genocide of the Amakalites. 'Nuff said.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Astreja said......the Ten Commandments are "insults" because any individual with empathy and proper upbringing -- Regardless of religious creed -- already knows that killing and stealing and lying and dissing one's parental units and cheating on one's Significant Other is bad."

And who do you think taught people that those things are wrong? God. You have learned these rules from others because they have been passed down from God over generations.

Astreja Said........"In fact, if we did not already possess moral sensibility we would be unable to recognize some of the Ten Commandments as generally good ideas."

I hate to break this to you, but those laws came from God. Man did not make the law.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Spirula wrote:

I hate to break this to you, but those laws came from God. Man did not make the law.
*POW* *irony meter breaks*

Oh, really?!

Well, that would explain why the same basic set of ethics/morals has been found in every isolated group of people, from the Amazon to Siberia. Rules prohibiting murder, adultery, stealing etc.. All in individuals who never even heard of Christianity, have never had any association with the Abrahamic religions.

And that also explains how, in your own Bible, Enoch could be so righteous in the eyes of God that he walked with God and "was no more" (did not die...hey! where did that original sin go? The bastard!). And then there's Noah, Abraham, Joseph etc.. All these righteous and godly men and women who existed before "God's" law was even given. Hmmm, how did they know?

Yup we wouldn't know nuttin' about how to behave if God...oops, Moses hadn't wrote in stone.

Hate to break it to you, but your pathetic opinion on the histroy of human morality isn't even defensible by your own Bible

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

I'm pretty sure it was my Mama what told me not to lie, cheat and steal. And her Mama told her not to lie, cheat and steal. And her Mama'a Mama told HER not to lie, chea and steal . . . you seeing the pattern here, Christians? God had nothing, and has nothing, to do with human compassion, kindness or behavior in general. If it did, it would have direct contact with humans. People were behaving with decency LOONG before Moses decided he wanted an entire race of groupies. If what you are saying is true, Christians, then this could not have happened - if goodness and kindess and decency only come from God, and God only revealed himself to a certain group of people, then the rest of the world should have been wallowing in depravity. Strangely enough, it was not. Strangely enough, entire cultures that existed at the same time when Jesus was supposed to have existed had much more specific codes of kindness and ethics than Jesus ever did. The Buddha, who lived and was CONFIRMED TO HAVE LIVED 5,000 years before Jesus, had a much more in-depth code of morality than Jesus. There is no need to make excuses for the Buddha's behavior, or for gaps in the Buddhist philosophy - it is VERY well-thought out, unlike Jesus' spastic kindness and cruelty. Yet if what you are saying is true, this could not happen - the Buddha would have needed God, and yet the Buddha goes so far as to say that there is no God, and that the people who seek it are nothing more than swindlers are folks afraid of thinking.

All in all, there is no need for Christianity. It is useless.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Trancelation......."I'm pretty sure it was my Mama what told me not to lie, cheat and steal. And her Mama told her not to lie, cheat and steal. And her Mama'a Mama told HER not to lie, chea and steal . . . you seeing the pattern here, Christians?"

Yes, I do see the pattern of God's teachings being passed down from generation to generation to your Mama.

God taught them, and people like your mother passed them down from other relatives and ancestors.

Excellent point Trancelation!

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Jack wrote:

Just to be clear I think you meant 500 years before Jesus, not 5000. Other than that, I completely agree; Gautama Buddha's teachings were much more cohesive than Jesus'.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 FamilyMan23 wrote:

Anonymous, you are a pure example of the bile that is ejaculated from a person's mouth when they are indoctrinated to the teeth with religion. I had the same upbringing as this kid, couldn't watch Smurfs, never talked to about sex because it was disgusting, etc. (although Harry Potter was after my time but I'm sure that would have been banned in my household as well). I'm assuming your current upbringing is similar.
Now I'm not asking you to change your mind now or to even question your religion. But when you get older and move out, go to college, whatever. Then research your religion, research science, research other religions and use rational and critical thinking. Then if you still believe it, fine.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous47 wrote:

familyman23......"I'm assuming your current upbringing is similar."

Some of you seem to think that all christians were born into christianity.

Actually I use to watch people being sawed up into pieces and hard core porn. My dad and I sit around when I was a teenager drinking beer and whiskey, so no my upbringing was not similar to yours.

Familyman23........"But when you get older and move out, go to college, whatever."

Actually I am 47 years old, and if I am guessing based on your name, that you are a family man, and you are 23 years old which makes me old enough to be your dad son.

Funny how you "Know It All" atheists think you have everything figured out.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

*smacks forehead*

DUH! It is 500 years. That was not a typo; I just couldn't remember the actual time. And this coming from a once VERY-devout Buddhist. *sigh* I didn't get much sleep last night. The point remains, though: the Buddha was confirmed to have existed LONG before Jesus (whose existence has NEVER been confirmed), his teachings were more cohesive than Jesus', ultimately showing that you do not need Christianity. This raises the question of whether or not there is even a God; since God cannot keep its end of the bargain, there are only two options: there is no God, or God is lying.

As for the Anonymous comments: this is the best they can do. One hit sarcastic comments. It's no wonder Christianity is beginning to die. In a world where reason trumps religion, all religion has on its side is childish behavior meant to stir your emotions up. *shrugs* That doesn't bother me, Christians. This is why you're going to lose the war. Please; KEEP making your snide little remarks. In the end, they will be your death. As the song goes:

"Your end is our triumph/and the day will come."

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

47:

Most Christians ARE born into it. That's the way religion works. I can forgive those people. But for people lik you who turn to religion because they're afraid of hard questions . . . well, you're evn more pathetic. Get a grip, you pissy little bitch. Stop being so scared of life. No one gives a fuck if you used to drink whiskey or watch 'people being sawed up'. Fuck you. That doesn't make your conversion any more meaningful. "Wah, wah, wah, I use to masturbate to image-pictures of dead kittens, but Jeebus done took care 'dem 'dur urges, I tell 'e whut!" Fuck off. Or better yet, go to a fucking therapist. EVERY Christian fails. If you like dead kittens that much, you'll turn back to it. Jesus does not exist, and so you are destined to fail.

Like one poster said:

luls

Christianity = epic phailz

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 47 wrote:

Trancelation........"Christianity is beginning to die."

Sorry, but it will never die. It has survived for centuries. Nobody can kill it. God will not allow that to happen, just like God will never allow Israel to be wiped off the map.

Trancelation......"Get a grip, you pissy little bitch"

Actually I am a male. The more appropriate words would've been S.O.B. or bastard, however I'm not surprised that you would refer to me as a bitch considering that you "Know It All" atheists have everything figured out, and for some reason you thought I was a woman.

On a more personal note Trancelation you seem to be a very angry person. It's no wonder you can't get any sleep at night.

Perhaps it is you who should see a therapist and get something done about your anger. ;)

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

"Actually I am a male. The more appropriate words would've been S.O.B. or bastard, however I'm not surprised that you would refer to me as a bitch considering that you "Know It All" atheists have everything figured out, and for some reason you thought I was a woman."

well you SOUND like a chick and even if you have male parts, you can still be a bitch if you act like one.

Christians are fucking retarded

end of story

sir fer

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous Atheist........."well you SOUND like a chick"

How are you able to hear what I sound like? Do you have some type of hearing device where you are able to hear my voice.

Please provide the scientific data or the way I word my posts that make me sound like a woman.

Your explanation ought to be good considering that you Atheists "Know Everything".

Sheesh!!!!!

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

Anonymous. Stop spamming the site. You've been posting non-stop on all kinds of threads. It's not just annoying, it's against the TOS.

Thanks.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 FamilyMan23 wrote:

anonymous47:

That sucks. I mean it, my childhood sucked with a borderline abusive father, but not to that extent.
The thing about tragedy is it drives our need for something bigger with more meaning, something above ourselves so we can take comfort in that these terrible things happened (or are happening) for a reason. If your religion brings you comfort than go for it. As long as you don't tell other people they are going to hell if they don't believe the same thing or raise your kids telling them they'll rot in hell without Jesus. Delusions are personal; if they were kept that way I would have no problem with religion.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Wayne wrote:

Hey anon (the xtian one)... Actually, most of us "know it all" atheists freely admit to NOT knowing it all. A rational mind isn't afraid to question things or even admit being WRONG once in a while.

I find that it's the loudmouth christians that just KNOW that they are "god's" chosen ones, and they just KNOW that only they know the true path, and they just KNOW that every word in that rag of a book (which was assembled by Constantine, btw) is perfect and the word of god (which were actually taken from Sumerian & ancient Egyptian texts, among others).
The only thing I'm really sure I know... most of you "buy-bull" thumpers seem more than happy to reject things like facts, evidence, PROOF (even if it's right before your eyes) if it contradicts that silly fiction of yours.

You're not going to convince anyone here with your weak and circular arguments. Go back to your little closed minded prayer circle, hold hands, sing your little songs, and just fantasize yourself holy oblivion.

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Wayne wrote:

One other thing - I have a great sense of humor... when I hear something funny. You're just sad and delusional.

Here's something funny... picture an idiot running around telling everyone that a big man who lives in the sky loves us, unless we are bad and don't give lip service to his son. Then he'll hate us and leave us to fry with no sunblock forever...

That's a story that makes me laugh...

posted: February 22, 2008 EST  

 Lorena wrote:

"Ok, so you are saying that it is ok to murder? After all it is one of the "10 Insults".

What kind of twisted minded individual are you? Are you insane???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Wow! I must have come a long way. The insults gave me a grin instead of making me mad.

I am happy to report that I am very smart, self-confident, "twisted-minded" person whose intelligence is truly insulted by the 10 INSULTS.

To assume that a truly EVOLVED person needs outside threats to understand that harming others is wrong is downright ridiculous.

Now, if you are an ape, maybe you need the 10 insults, because you aren't human enough to "get it" on your own.

posted: February 23, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

Anonymouse: "I hate to break this to you, but those laws came from God. Man did not make the law."

If you honestly believe that, you are deluded and naïve. The god of the Bible exists only in the imaginations of believers. It is incapable of creating anything, and is 100% dependent upon the imaginations and real-life energies of those who believe in it. That's right... You, wee Anonymousie, are the power of your own god.

The god of the Bible is a later version of a monotheistic supergod meme, possibly inspired by the truth/lie, light/dark dichotomy envisioned by Zara?uštra. This meme is a consolidation of earlier polytheistic systems to create a single all-powerful, all-seeing invisible Thing.

This meme, with its single path to "truth", was very useful in unifying and controlling peoples who had been displaced in the various agricultural wars that occurred several millenia ago... The story of Cain and Abel, for instance, is a parable that refers to the bloody land-grab that decimated and scattered communities far and wide from the Euphrates delta.

A few of the stories of the Bible may have been originally based on real events, but after many years of retelling around the campfire, they became religious mythology.

I say again: The god of the Bible is a myth. All codes of conduct, the good and the bad alike, are the exclusive creations of mortals.

And I fear that the only way you might convince Me otherwise is to send Yahweh around for a nice little in-person, (or in-burning-bush, as the case may be) chat.

posted: February 23, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Christians:

Guess what? You're not fooling anybody but yourselves. I suggest you get on the common sense boat (atheism) now, so you won't look like idiots when you're the last ones to get on. Christianity is dying, whether you want to admit or not. The fact that you are on this site at all is proof of that. So much for your brazen bullshit :)

posted: February 23, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Unlike Christians, I'm capable of backing up my claims:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3671172&page=1

posted: February 23, 2008 EST  

 Troy wrote:

From Trancelation:
"Unlike Christians, I'm capable of backing up my claims"

Checked out your link, and I don't see how that is evidence that christianity is dying. A few atheists had a meeting, so what? Big deal. What is so significant about that?

You think because atheism is growing in America that means that christianity is not real? You think that proves that Jesus does not exist? This is your proof? Give me a break. What a joke.

The only thing that it proves is that evil is on the rise, and once again it just proves what the word of God says in regards of people turning their backs on God in the last days. That's the only thing it proves. Sorry to inform you Trancelation, but atheists can have all the meetings that want, and they can grow as big in numbers as they want to, it still will not change the fact that Jesus does exist and that christianity is real.

If anything the growing number of atheists proves the scripture where it says, "Wide is the path to destruction".

Apparently you didn't read the last part of that article. Here is a reminder of what it said:

"the majority of Americans say they would not vote for an atheist for president."

Still think christianity is dying?

posted: February 23, 2008 EST  

 .:webmaster:. wrote:

So, Christianity is not dying, but evil is on the rise.

Christianity is backed by the power of an omnipotent GOD, but evil is making advances.

Christianity boasts churches on nearly every corner, hundreds of television programs, thousands of radio shows, millions of books and publications, uncountable numbers of websites, oodles of public leaders, and yet, is powerless to the encroachment of the tiny minority of atheists who are promoting a message of "evil." Evil here is personified, of course, in any single person who thinks Christianity is bunk.

The Jesus I read about in the Bible never preached a political take over of the world. The Jesus I read about promoted repentance from sin and a humble turning toward GOD. This Jesus never talked about rebuking, condemning and denigrating unbelievers. Sure, he said to go and preach the gospel, but he never said go and chastise unbelievers with a vengeance. He did say if people reject the message that the messenger should shake the dust off his or her feet and move on down the road. It seems to me that those instructions are a far cry from getting all pissy.

Christianity has changed over the years, however, and the negative effect this altered religion has on some people's personalities and behaviors is evidence that something is wrong with this religion. A quick study of the history of Christianity demonstrates quite clearly how potentially cruel Christians can be.

Is Christianity dying? I don't personally see it. However, as an optimist, I certainly hope that superstition is someday replaced by logical reasoning. Presently that future seems like it's a long way off.

posted: February 23, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Troy:

" . . . a few atheists . . . "

A "few" people do not hold a convention.

It is significant because even a few years ago, atheists in America were not so willing to speak out so loudly and in such large numbers. Now, atheism is becoming more prominent in America, more accepted, if only by a few inches here or a few feet there, but nevertheless atheists are slowly becoming a force to be reckoned with. It is significant because it is an indication that Christiany's hold an the West is waning. It took a long time for Christianity and religion to all but dissapear in Europe and Australia; as we speak, Christianity has a hold in Africa and places like China, only because Africans are, by and large, tribal and superstitious and easily manipulated (as evidenced by their willingness to engage in genocide), and in China only because the Chinese want very much to be like Americans. All of that aside . . . it is significant because it shows that there are more non-believers in your midst than you thought. We are legion! And if we are legion, then Christianity is dying.

" . . . because atheism is growing in America christianity is not real?"

Never said that. Numbers don't prove an argument. If more people believed in, oh, I dinno, pink unicorns, than Christianity, that does not make the claims of . . . Unicornists any more true. All it shows is that belief in unicorns threatens the stranglehold of Christianity. Christianity, as an organization, is very, very real. Its claims, however, are FALSE. There is no God as described in the Bible; there is no Jesus Christ as described in the Bible; there is no Heaven or Hell as described in the Bible. The fact that, right now, there are Christians in America does not verify the claims of the religion.

"You think that proves that Jesus does not exist?"

Again, never said that. See the argument above. The only claim I'm making here is that Christianity is dying. That simple. But here's something else to chew on: atheism is not right because it's growing; atheism is growing because it's right :)

" . . . majority of Americans . . . "

Oh, I read it, all right. Your point is what? I never said that atheists outweigh the majority of Christians. Only that Christianity is dying.

" . . . turning their backs on God . . . "

Wrong. In order to turn your back on something, it must exist. Christians love to claim that atheists are angry at God. If that is true, then where is this God? That is why I am an atheist, and why there are more atheists coming out: there is no evidence for gods, and more people are admitting that and openly showing this non-belief to the world. This is very good news!

" . . .but the Bible says . . . "

I don't fucking care. You contradict yourself, anyway; first, Christianity is NOT dying, and yet evil is on the rise? Christianity is not dying, yet people are turning their backs on God? WHA? PICK ONE.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Troy wrote:

Trancelation, here is what is really going on.

You do not believe because you do not want to believe, because you do not want to live for God. You want to live the way you want to live. That is what this is really all about. It wouldn't matter if Jesus came to this planet or not, people like yourself would still live in rebellion against him, because you do not want to live for God. That's what this is all about.

You do not want to hear what the bible says because you know that it is truth, and it scares you. That's why you get so angry.

Prophecy is being fulfilled right now due to the fact that in the last days people will fall from the faith. There is some more proof for you. You are one of those people it is talking about.

I find no credible evidence with your claims. You or no other atheist will ever determine what Christ does. This is his planet, and you are under his authority. Christ is not under you or any other living being on this planet's authority.

Those who exalt themselves shall be humbled.

Human arrogance will be your downfall one day Trancelation. Pride comes before the fall.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Troy wrote:

Trancelation Said:
"Christianity is not dying, yet people are turning their backs on God? WHA? PICK ONE."

That's exactly what the bible says would happen.

Thanks once again for proving God's word right. You are being used by God to reveal his prophecy and you don't even realize it. Your attempts to discredit christianity are back firing in your face Trancelation.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 AtheistToothFairy wrote:

Troll Troy said to Trancelation:
I find no credible evidence with your claims. You or no other atheist will ever determine what Christ does. This is his planet, and you are under his authority. Christ is not under you or any other living being on this planet's authority.
----
Well hey there marc... Oh, I mean Troy,

Of course you can't see any credible evidence in Trancelation's post, because you are just that brainwashed by your jesus delusion of him coming to rescue your sorry ass.
But hey, some folks do drugs to escape their awful lives, while others like you tend to fantasize about a life in heaven, for the same reason.

I wonder if it's proper to say one has a jesus-fetish, like some have a foot-fetish?

Anyone?

You're right, we can't determine what your fantasy jesus in your head, will do next.
We haven't evolved any supernatural powers (yet) to control the delusions of your own mind.
So you may continue to enjoy your little jesus fetish, just as long as you keep it between "two (xtian) consenting adults" and don't push your fetish on the rest of us.

Again you're right, as christ is not under us.
See, here's the formula:
Christ=Nothing
We all know that the earth is under us and not some big 'Nothing'.

I can't speak for others here troy, but while there was a time in my life that I would have bent a knee to your god, after what I've learned about your god from non-pulpit sources, I wouldn't bow to such a two-faced evil being; even if 'he' did turn out to exist.

You really need to get your mind out of the jesus gutter and see the light of reality.
There is no jesus, never was in fact, so get over it.
Your bible is nothing but fiction, meant to control weak minded sheep.

Your so called 'end times' have come and gone, long long ago.

There is nothing about our present era that is unique enough for you to say these so called 'end times' are upon us.
Now if your dumb bible book had made predictions of modern inventions and cited specifics about the two world wars, then you might have some reason to buy into that claim.
Talking in general terms about wars and earthquakes and diseases, just doesn't cut it buster. I once upon a time fell for that crap myself, but never again!!
No one can see into the future, not us, not you, not your pretend sky-papa either.

Now go out and get an education and get your addicted mind off them god drugs, okay


ATF (Who thinks Troy-Boy's mind needs a reality tune-up and soon)

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Wayne wrote:

Hey "Troy" - try replacing the word JESUS or GOD with THOR or ZEUS in that bible of yours and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Now... tell me again why we should believe it because it says Jesus?

BTW "Troy"... Jesus = Horus

Look it up. You may learn a few things if you ever decide to crack open any other book besides the buy-bull.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Troy:

In a nutshell; I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

I don't believe becuase I DON'T BELIEVE. If you told me that you have a car to sale me that gets 5,000 miles to the gallon, runs off human saliva, gets decent reception of NPR in my neck of the woods, and can mssage my testicles with a suprisingly-lifelike robotic hand shaped after my fiance's, well, I'd call your ass a liar. Not because I don't want to believe in such a car - hell, I'd LOVE to have such a car! - but because I simply would not believe you. It is a fantastic claim, and as such, requires fantastic evidence. I simply can't believe in such a thing. It does not seem plausible to me. Now, if you can prove me wrong and have that car in my front yard TOMORROW - I'll be amazed, and will admit to being wrong. I didn't believe OJ was guilty, or that Kurt Kobain was dead. Well, they showed MY ass. But I still won't believe in God, because I am incapable of it. You either believe or you don't. Belief is not a choice.

All of this applies to Christianity and ALL other religious claims. I'd LOVE to believe this stuff - to have the ability to convince myself that ALL I have to do to have a gauranteed sweet-ass ride in the afterlife is think certain thoughts. But I can't; I doubt the claims. In order for me to be in denial about the Bible and its claims, it would first have to be shown to be true. And it has not, especially in its more fantastic claims. I'm not angry at God, Troy; I'm not scared of God. I don't believe in such a thing. And I can't help it. My logical reasoning capacity is not capable of swallowing such a thing. I just cannot believe it, no matter how hard I try. You might as well be trying to tell me that the pink unicorns are coing to get me. As scary a thought as that is, and as angry as I would be if pink unicorns wre making asburd demands of me and coming after me for not acknowledging their existence, I just can't believe in them, no matter how scary they sound. You need to show evidence of these unicorns; you need to show me evidence of God.

As for prophecy:

First of all, YOU are the one that said Christianity isn't dying. Now, you're saying I'm right. It looks like you've chosen to stay with the idea that I'm right, and that Christianity IS dying in the West - okay. Simple enough . . .

Oh, wait, it's NOT going to be simple, is it?

Troy, any and all passages referring to the end of days was meant to happen in those days - NOT thousands of years later. There were many end times believers in thosw days - many Jews hoping for the coming of a savior to free them from the tyranny of the Romans. I have read the Bible three times, so don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. The Bible is littered with failed prophecies.

http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm

So, to be quite honest, I'm not worried ONE IOTA about these so-called 'prophecies'. People have been not believing in God for as long as the word God has existed. What you are trying on me, Troy, is called EMOTIONAL APPEALS - and they're not going to work. Because you can't provide anything reasonable or logical, you rely on emotional appeals to make your argument seem to have impact. Well, they don't, Troy. If your arguments had any basis to them, you wouldn't NEED to rely one motional appeals.

All in all, Christianity is dying, there is no God, and I am an atheist for no toher reason than because I am an atheist.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 pekingjohn wrote:

Troy,
Jesus never existed and it can be proven simply by reading the New Testament.

For starters, the Apostle Paul never had any idea that Jesus ever set foot on Earth. The Pauline Epistles (written around 50 A.D.)contain 80,000 words about Jesus but contain no references to the information in the Gospels. There was nothing about Bethlehem, the three wise men, King Herod, the Sermon on the Mount, the conversations with the disciples, the conversations with the Pharisees, the entrance into Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, Golgotha, etc ...

Don't you think that if the early Christians had known of Jesus' Earthly life that they would have been talking about it? Given that the Gospels hadn't been written yet, Paul could have heard about the life of Jesus from James and Peter, who supposedly had been Jesus' disciples and whom Paul claimed to have known personally, but he says nothing of this.

In addition, Paul claimed that all that he knew about Jesus came from personal revelation (Gal. 1:11,12), and not from other people (i.e., not the historical Jesus). He had no concept that Jesus ever came to the Earth.

What is more, Christians keep talking about the Second Coming of Christ. Well, the New Testament doesn't speak of this. It talks about the coming of Christ. Look up these verses: Thess.4:15,5:2; Php.1:6,3:20; 2 Thess.1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Heb.10:37. Nowhere does it say "return","come back","come again", or "second coming"

Paul never thought that Jesus had come to the Earth. Paul's Jesus was a heavenly Jesus.

After the Gospels had been written, the Christians had to explain Paul's "coming of Christ" as the second coming, but it's quite apparent that that's not what Paul meant.

If Paul never thought that Jesus had come to the Earth, then why should you or I?

The New Testament is a fraud and should have no more significance than any other fairy tales.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

Troy: You["non-believers"] do not believe because you do not want to believe, because you do not want to live for God. You want to live the way you want to live. That is what this is really all about.

Let's see, now..... false, false, and false. Your statements commit the fallacy of bare assertion. You are merely asserting that said "thing" exists, and from there, projecting your own opinion on to others who don't share your belief. To illustrate, we can use the same tactic on you:

Troy, you don't believe in Santa because you don't like the idea of having to be a good little boy throughout the year; you want to behave the way you want to behave!

See? 'So simple: All I've done is assert that said 'thing' exists - in this case, "Santa" - and from there, I've given my opinion as to why you "don't want to believe" in the existence of "Santa".

Further, I'll wager that if I were to insist that "Santa" exists, that my insisting this, alone, won't change or sway your non-belief in "Santa", one single iota. In other words, it's absurd to suggest to someone that they do believe, what they simply don't believe. Please make yourself cognizant of this fallacy for future reference, m'kay? Thanks.

Troy: It wouldn't matter if Jesus came to this planet or not, people like yourself would still live in rebellion against him, because you do not want to live for God. That's what this is all about.

In my case - and in the case of many others I know - this is partially true. While on the one hand, if "Jesus" appeared, in the flesh, you know, like he allegedly appeared to the "Twelve", and to almost five-hundred other people? Well, then, and only then, would I concede to said being's existence. Yet, on the other hand, I would still reject his offer to spend eternity with him, based, mainly, on two things: 1) His childish, repulsive, and pugnacious behavior as delineated throughout the bible, and 2) His 'promise' to incinerate me if I don't "choose" to be with him. F%ck that; give me "hell". I will not love any being who would resort to coersing me into reciprocating their "love" for me with threats. Repeat: Screw that.

Troy: You do not want to hear what the bible says because you know that it is truth, and it scares you. That's why you get so angry.

NO; what "scares" us, and what get's some of us so "angry", is the notion of sharing this planet, in the 21st century, no less, with grown adults who cannot distinguish fact from fiction; myth from reality.

Troy: Prophecy is being fulfilled right now due to the fact that in the last days people will fall from the faith

Good grief, if you and your religious ilk are not intelligent enough to see the blatant circularity in this concept, then boy, the human race is worse off than I thought. Don't you see?..in order for this alleged "prophecy" to be "fulfilled", it is actually necessary for people to "fall from the faith". Duh? Allow me to spell it out: If no one "fell from the faith", then said "prophecy" would be UNfulfilled, thus, bringing your biblegod's "omniscience" into question. 'Follow?

And BTW, what does "last days" mean, if presumably no one knows when "the end" is? That's like saying a particular event will occur "next weekend", and then renaming all the days of the week to either "Saturday" or "Sunday". So, of course, no matter when said event happens, said "prophecy" will be "accurate". 'Follow?

Troy: I find no credible evidence with your claims.

Unfortunately for you, "tit-for-tat" arguments do not apply here. In other words, one doesn't logically look for "evidence" that something does not exist. To illustrate---concerning the existence of Poseiden, it would be illogical to ask Troy for evidence that said trident-wielding deity does NOT exist deep in a cave at the bottom of the ocean, somwehere. No; the onus of proof is in the lap of the one claiming, TO Troy, that "Poseiden" does exist.

Troy: You or no other atheist will ever determine what Christ does.

Yes!....that's right! And do you know why?(asked rhetorically)...because we don't BELIEVE that "Christ" has a referent in reality! Please, stick it in your memory-bank.

Troy: This is his planet, and you are under his authority.

::yawn::

Existential fallacy/bare assertion fallacy.

Troy: Christ is not under you or any other living being on this planet's authority.

Uh huh...and Shazam wants to pick you up in his country camper, and take you to the Grand Canyon!

You'll have to do better, Troy. Can you?

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Wayne wrote:

Hey Boomslang - your Shazam line made me choke on my coffee!
Let's replace all of the "Jesus" references in the bible with SHAZAM!!! Brilliant!

It'd give the book a whole new feel, huh? :)

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 gomer pyle wrote:

SHAZAM!!!!!!

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Troy says he finds no credible evidence to my claims . . . yet he agrees that Christianity is dying, which is exactly what I claimed. WHA?

See, Troy, this is why faith is necessary; there is no credible evidence to the claims of the Bible. It relies on fear and emotional appeals. Instead of displaying the evidence of Hell before you, it says you had better believe or you will suffer NIGH ON ENDLESSLY, in the worst of ways. Wow; who needs evidence when they have such scary words behind them? Meanwhile, atheism has nothing of the sort to offer. Atheism is about the LACK of evidence for theistic claims. If an atheist believes in God, then he or she is not an atheist. Atheists are people that do not believe in ANY GOD - because there is no evidence for said gods. That is why I am an atheist and not, say, an agnostic or a deist. I see no evidence for gods; ergo, I see no reason to consider their existence. When I see reason to consider the existence of gods, I will gladly do it. I listen more than willingly to so-called evidence for the existence of gods . . . but if those arguments fall apart under scrutinization, then I have no reason to believe them. Therefore, I WON'T, because I CAN'T. And basically, Troy, yo ass needs 2 deal widdit.

I was a Christian for a long time, Troy. I had no other choice BUT to believe - it was the only choice offered me. I was told that God was real and that was the way of the world, and that idea was reinforced through scare tactics. No one EVER made a credible argument for God, and I often wondered if there were such a thing - but I was too scared to ask any further.

Atheism = freedom.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Troy wrote:

Just because something is dying does not mean that it is not real.

That's the point you seem to keep on missing Trancelation.

You seem to act like that if enough people turn their back on God then that will mean that Jesus does not exist or it will keep him from doing his will.

Does not matter what people do, God is going to do what he wants to do regardless of what people believe or what they decide to do.

People have no control or power over God no matter what their actions are.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Anonymous wrote:

Translation said: "Atheism = freedom."

I'm sorry to inform you but as an atheist you are not free. The Truth is that you have surrendered to your temptations. The graveness of your choices have blinded you from the Truth and you now exist as a being that is chained to bondage. My words will mean nothing to you because even your ears have been marred by your sins.

Despite your pitiful state, the Lord our God will continue to long for your heart. While alive, there remains hope for you. There is only one that can break your chains of bondage and even you, in your state, know His name. His name is Jesus, the Christ.

I was once like you, lost & in chains, but then the unmerited grace of God fell on me. I found life in His Mercy and I'll continue to hope & pray that He gives this same grace to many, many more...

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 AtheistToothFairy wrote:

Troy said:
You seem to act like that if enough people turn their back on God then that will mean that Jesus does not exist or it will keep him from doing his wil
----
Troy,
You really are pretty dense, aren't you.

Let's try this one-more-time.

For a thing to exist or not exist, has nothing to do with the quantity of people who hold an opinion on the issue, one way or the other.
How many from ancient history believed in other gods that were popular at the time?
Did the number of believers of those other gods, force those gods into being, or did it only prove that many believed that other god was real?
I'm sure you wouldn't say that ZEUS was born into reality by the many believers he had at one time.

So it really doesn't make a hill-of-beans of difference, how many hold a belief in some god.
That god either exists or does not exists, just that simple.

The problem here to us is that we know your god isn't more than a belief and does not actually exist in reality.
It is that BELIEF of your mythical god, that we have a problem with and want extinguished, not a god being that you assume is real.

There is no point in thinking we hate your god, just as you wouldn't say you hate pink unicorns on uranus.
What we do hate, are the things of your bible book, that are attributed to this mythical god creature.
It is those beliefs themselves that give us heartburn, as they do nothing but stunt the growth of the human race.

So whether 90% believe in your god, or a mere 5%, it will have zero effect on the possibility of your god being real.

Now if you wish to present some evidence to us to prove your beliefs are justified in reality, then by all means, bring your evidence hence forth.

If you have no evidence, well then, I suggest you TAKE A HIKE BUDDY, as your words will only fall on deaf ears here.


ATF (Who double-dares your pretend god to come set me straight)

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Dave8 wrote:

Troy: "Just because something is dying does not mean that it is not real."

However, in the realm of ideas, and ideated imaginings, fantasies become as real as the idea of a god. The fact I may no longer believe in Santa Clause, doesn't mean that he was real, beyond my imagination.

Troy: "You seem to act like that if enough people turn their back on God then that will mean that Jesus does not exist or it will keep him from doing his will."

Troy, in order for you to speak of Jesus' will, you inherently speak in "first person" narrative.

Do you find it stimulating, to act like Santa Clause, I mean God, I mean... Jesus.

Troy: "Does not matter what people do, God is going to do what he wants to do regardless of what people believe or what they decide to do."

Again, must be great to be a god, even if only in your mind.

Troy: "People have no control or power over God no matter what their actions are."

Well; no control = no worries.

I can't worry about what I can't control, to do so is insane. Well, that seems to make a lot of sense actually, right Troy.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Phant wrote:

Anonymous Christian Said:
"I'm sorry to inform you but as an atheist you are not free. The Truth is that you have surrendered to your temptations."

That's the point of freedom. Having the freedom to do what you want without the fear of some mythical God threatening to toast you in hell. The freedom to make decisions on your own, and the freedom to get what you want in life.

Anonymous Christian Said:
"The graveness of your choices have blinded you from the Truth and you now exist as a being that is chained to bondage."

Sorry to inform you, but you are the one who is chained to bondage. You are enslaved to the fear of your sky daddy tossing you into hell. You are too scared to live your life the way you see fit. That's what the real truth is. You need a really good secular therapist who can help you break the chains of christian bondage so you can achieve greatness in life. Instead of crawling around on your knees begging your God to help you deal with reality because you are too weak and pitiful to do so.

Here is the way it works:

CHRISTIANITY = Bondage

Anonymous Christian Said:
"My words will mean nothing to you because even your ears have been marred by your sins."

Then why come here preaching your propaganda?

My words will mean nothing to you because you have a mental disease called christianity which has enslaved your mind to the fear of going to hell. That's what happens when you have been brainwashed by a cult. Thanks for continuing to endorse just how stupid christians like you are, and thanks for making me glad that I left the Jesus Cult.

Anonymous Christian Said:
"Despite your pitiful state, the Lord our God will continue to long for your heart."

You are the one who is pitiful Christian. You are a loser.

As for God longing for my heart, well that's just too bad for poor little God isn't it? Seems the poor cosmic bully doesn't get everything he wants. It seems that God does not know how to win friends and influence people.

Anonymous Said:
"I found life in His Mercy and I'll continue to hope & pray that He gives this same grace to many, many more..."

Instead of getting down on your knees and talking to yourself why don't you get off your sorry butt and go help better the world by helping those who are in need instead of preaching your worthless lip service. Talk is cheap, and that is all christians like you know how to do. Your God is all talk and no action also.

Sounds like you didn't have much going for you in the first place. Yeah I was once like you also. I couldn't get a job and I was broke, had no friends and nothing going for me and then I found Christ and then things went from bad to worse.

Then I left Christianity and now I have a good career and great looking woman and plenty of good friends. I did it all on my own merit. So stick your gospel message where the sun doesn't shine. Your faith is worthless to me.

However thanks for the reminder of why I am so glad that I left christianty. Your pitiful post just endorses how pitiful your God is.

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Troy:

I've already addresed the issues you brought up. As I said in my second post to you, numbers don't make an argument right. That means that just because there might one day be more atheists than Christians, or that there ARE more atheists than Christians (whether or not those atheists are open or closeted about their atheism), it does not mean that atheists are right. The same is true for Christians, or Unicornists, or White Supremacists. How many times do I have to say this, Troy? Numbers don't make an argument right. Christianity being wrong has nothing to do with whether or not t has the most or the least believers. Christianity is wrong solely on the fact that it cannot provide fantastic evidence for its fantastic claims. In my book, if you make fantastic claims - like the Bible does - and then are unable to provide evidence, then you are a liar. Some people think this is a harsh stance to take; those people can kiss my ass.

As for God doing what it wants . . . I've already addressed this one, too, Troy. You haven't provided any evidence for God, so your argument is fallacious. But here's something I want to bring up: you say that God is going to do what it wants. Okay; why do people pray, then? Why do people ask this God for anything when it already has this grand cosmic plan in motion? Why do people ask this God for anything when their desires have already been considered and are going to be turned down if they don't fit in with God's plan? Why do people ask this God for anything when it is already going to intervene in people's lives the way it wants regardless of what those people think, say or do? What is the purpose of this exercise? To kiss God' ass? Why would you do that? So you won't earn it's wrath? Why is this a good thing? If a person stormed into your life and started trying to take complete control of you, would you not fight back? Of course you would. So why is God any different, Troy? Because it is supposedly powerful? Because you don't want to piss it off? Why is this good? Why is it good to kiss the ass of something just so it won't gte pissed off at you? Doesn't this bother you at all, Troy? Don't you want some answers? No? WHY NOT?

Once again, Troy, this s why faith is requie din religion. Because questions equal doubt and doubt equals fear. And I know you are afraid, because you won't answer any of my questions, and you won't read my posts. If you were so confident in what you're saying, you would read my posts AND answer my questions, Troy.

What are you so afraid of?

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 Astreja wrote:

Troy (who lost to the Greeks many centuries ago): "I'm sorry to inform you but as an atheist you are not free."

No duh. I have rights and responsibilities as a member of society.

"The Truth is that you have surrendered to your temptations."

Watch it with the "T" word, you self-righteous little git. It is the fucking height of arrogance for you to claim anything about us and our respective internal worlds. You do not know our life experiences, nor do you know the contents of our minds. Period.

"Despite your pitiful state, the Lord our God will continue to long for your heart."

Longing for hearts? Ah, that explains it. The god of the Bible is actually Huitzilopochtli.

"There is only one that can break your chains..."

Assuming for one wild moment that there *are* chains... You are not in a position to prove "only one". There may, in fact, be an infinite way to break these alleged chains. However, you have chosen to limit yourself to only one possible way, and you're having a hissy fit because we think your way is inappropriate for us.

"I was once like you..."

Unsupported assertion. You don't know enough about us to make such a statement.

"...but then the unmerited grace of God fell on me."

Why am I having visions of that 16-ton weight from the Monty Python "self defence against bananas" skit?

posted: February 24, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

most recent anonymous:

Ha! You almost had me fooled. That stagnant repetition, that bland and tired anti-logic . . . please. You're DEFINITELY an atheist if ever there was one.

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 Pork Is Da Man wrote:

I just got to say that I am so sick and goddamn tired of these Self-Righeous, Arrogant, Asshole Christians who come onto this site claiming that they think they know what is best for us and how they have us figured out like they've known us all of our lives.

Fuck all of you Goddamn Christians. I hate every single one of you sons of bitches and your fucking God too.

Lucky for you christians who post on here this is the internet, because if you started preaching to me in person I would censor you by breaking your goddamn jaw.

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 Phant wrote:

Trancelation,

What makes you think that recent anonymous guy is an atheist?

He seems like another asshole christian to me.

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Troy and all other Christians:

You can keep trying to derail this thread all day and/or night long, but it doesn't change anything: you have given none of any reason to believe in your God. As such, why should we? What argument can you offer besides emotional appeals? What evidence can you offer besides the Bible, was has been shown time and time and time again to be fallacious, false, and contradictory? What proof of God and Jesus and Heaven and Hell can you give us besides your own warm-and-fussy feelings you get when you think of a white surfer-model Jesus plaing with kittens, these warm-and-fuzzy feelings not being anything besides the emotional reactions to the indoctrination of the Christian religion? WELL?

NOw who's being unreasonable? NOW who's the one in bondage? The person not believing in something because there's noo evidence for it, or the person who believes in something because they're scared of not believing in something?

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 Phant wrote:

All these christians are doing is continuing to discredit their faith and their God.

I find it pitiful that their God who is supposed to be so powerful feels the need to use humans to do his work.

Seems he doesn't have the ability to make his message clear nor does he have the ability to convince others that he is real. Instead his dumbass followers come here and they try to play God's servant and they fail miserably by doing so.

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

phant:

If the last anonymous IS a Christian, they will most likely be ticked off about being called an atheist. But someone that repeats a mantra like that so blandly and blindly has to either be a robot or a closeted atheist . . . or perhaps, a closeted robot . . . atheist-bot . . . thing.

. . . look at THAT!

*makes his escape*

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 Phant wrote:

Trancelation,

You may be right about the anonymous christian poster,however I do know that there are christians out there that do have the same type of illogical reasoning that the anonymous christian poster has.

Some christians are actually that stupid. Some of them are so brainwashed that they can't see the forrest for the trees.

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 trancelation wrote:

Phant:

Agreed.

I think the worst part, though, is that people like that are essentially victims. They don't know any better; or are too afraid to take heed of the knowledge and facts that go against their indoctrinated viewpoints.

posted: February 25, 2008 EST  

 boomSLANG wrote:

"Troy" assesses the situation, and comes back with: Just because something is dying does not mean that it is not real.

Yes!..that's correct! And if it were that a particular religion was not "dying", but instead, increasing in adherents, then likewise, that wouldn't necessarily mean that it's beliefs were grounded in reality.

The distinction, however, is that Atheism is neither a "belief", nor a "religion". If the whole f%cking world deconverted to NON-belief in "God", then the subject would simply be a NON-issue. Do you understand, "Troy"?(Marc?) In other words, it would be a non-issue, similar to how the non-belief in leprechauns is currently a non-issue. Mind you, even if it were the case that leprechauns "secretly" existed, "unrevealed", it's STILL a NON-issue, because no sane person would ever convert to "belief" in leprechauns until empirical, first-hand, E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E is put forth. I wonder if you can grasp this simple concept?

"Troy": You seem to act like that if enough people turn their back on God then that will mean that Jesus does not exist or it will keep him from doing his will.

Good grief, we've been over this already...i.e..both "God's" alleged "will", as well as, the fallacy of assertion.

Let's review, hopefully, for your benefit:

True, reality is not ascertained by popular vote - that is correct.

Okay, so let's take your above assertion, and replace two words, so then maybe you'll see how idiotic your 'logic' looks to us(although, I'm not counting on it)

Here we go...

Troy, you seem to act like that if enough people turn their back on Pokey then that will mean that Gumby does not exist, or it will keep them from crossing the Delaware!

Okay, are you getting this, yet? Hint: Speculating on who does, or who does not, turn their back on a particular 'thing', is totally irrelevant until the existence of said 'thing' is established. Does that register with you, Livernuts? Okay, cool, moving on...

"Troy": [It] Does not matter what people do, God is going to do what he wants to do regardless of what people believe or what they decide to do. People have no control or power over God no matter what their actions are.

::yawn::

Okay, let's humor you; let's say that this 'thing', this "God" you keep blathering about, exists, and that, yes, it WILL do what it wants, because everything it wants, is, afterall, it's "will".

Okay, do you see the problem with this? Again, here it is: This "God" of yours presumably wants everyone in "Heaven"; NO one in "Hell", yes? Yes, of course. Okay, yet, you previously claimed that "God" "prophecied" that people would "fall from the faith"(i.e.."God" knew it would happen from the onset), and subsequently, god would have no choice but to banish these people to "Hell". Will you deny that much? No, of course you won't; you can't...for that would make you a bold-faced liar.(lying is a "sin")

So, if all of the above is accurate and true(and it is), then one of the following must logically follow:

1) "God" sends the "faithless" to "Hell" against it's very own desires(i.e..against it's own "will")

Implication: If "1" is true, we can logically conclude that, in the end, the "will" of man takes PRECEDENCE over the "will" of "GOD".

or...

2) "God" sends the "faithless" to "Hell" because that's in accordance with his "will".(God wants people in hell)

Implication: If it's the "will" of "God" that people be punished(tortured) in "Hell", then, a) "God" is not "all-loving", and b) the "faithless" are actually instrumental in carrying out "God's will", as again, this was allegedly "prophesied" from the onset. In other words, "evil" is actually necessary
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