I can already feel... civilization... slipping... away. RIP civilized world.

When I was little, it was only silly native tribal peoples that believed you could pray for rain. What has happened to us????

Our church is attempting to help in a multibillion dollar project of building aqueducts in Australia, similar to what was done in Southern Ca. several years ago. Just pointing out that not all churches are wackos but many care very much about those suffering.

So, just so I have this straight.... their Goda has taken the time from his busy schedule of worldwide floods, torture, disease, famine, murder and baby-killing in order to send rain to Australia ? I mean really, if he is omnipotent, killing all of those innocent children has GOT to fill up your days !

evan said:

"Our church is attempting to help in a multibillion dollar project of building aqueducts in Australia, similar to what was done in Southern Ca. several years ago. Just pointing out that not all churches are wackos but many care very much about those suffering."

Evan are you saying that your church believes this to be a random act of nature and that your congreagtion is praying with their hands and feet? That no one believes that your almighty, controls every falling leaf god didn't do this? That no one at your church has prayed to your god to send the suffering rain? Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that your church is involved with the building of aqueducts. I just do not believe that your church is opinionless about the "cause" of this and that no one is pleading with your god on behalf of the Australians.

Huey said:

"Evan are you saying that your church believes this to be a random act of nature and that your congreagtion is praying with their hands and feet? That no one believes that your almighty, controls every falling leaf god didn't do this? That no one at your church has prayed to your god to send the suffering rain? Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that your church is involved with the building of aqueducts. I just do not believe that your church is opinionless about the "cause" of this and that no one is pleading with your god on behalf of the Australians."

Huey that is a great question which has often kept me up at night. For instance, if I believed God controlled the nature in Australia and in his sovereignty chose to withhold rain, then wouldn't I be going against god by supporting this? However, the alternatives then would either be god doesn't control nature or he does and withholds desperately needed rain. All choices suck.

To answer your question more specifically, yes our church is praying for rain along with taking physical action. Is that a lack of faith? Maybe. However I could also envision god yelling at christians "stop praying and do something about (insert pray concern here)"

But if 'god' controls all things, then you are circumvneting his will by sending help to a land he has seen fit to punish for thier disobedience.

If 'god' cares for you yet afflicts you with cancer, why go to the doctors and seek treatment? If it is his will for you to die and be with him, why take any medical treatments?

If 'god' sends disasters like the tsunami, why send help to the survivors? That would be like Noah building extra boats for people during the flood, clearly in violation of 'god's' will that all should die.

Why send actual help, when all you have to do is pray the 'his will be done' and go on to a nice sunday brunch and forget about the whole mess.

Being from New Zealand, this just adds more weight to the case that Australians are idiots :oP

Maybe the fact that Australia is 90% desert shows that it never rains very much on the desert isle? But then that's probably to simple for most religious nutters to grasp.

Seems to me the religious types are grasping at this spurious deviation from logic to enhance their influence on the reigns of power, but then, what's new?

Sir Fir,

The land of Oz is indeed full of nutters and tossers...
Kapa o Pango aue hi! All Blacks forever!

What a beat-up. Sir Fir, This comment of yours is typical of Kiwis. However why are so many of you pouring over to Australia. BTW we'll slaughter you in the 20/20 Cricket.

As far as PM Kevin Rudd is concerned:
"Public Servants Will Advise Me, Not God: Rudd”
Published by Office 2 December 3rd, 2007 in Australia, Politics, Christian Church Issues, Elections
Dear Friends and Family in Christ,

Possibly you would be aware that over the past weekend the newspapers across the nation have reported several alarming statements by Prime Minister elect Kevin Rudd (who professes Christianity as his personal faith) regarding ‘God and Politics’. Many Christian leaders across Australia have promoted Kevin Rudd as an alternative Christian candidate to former PM John Howard. Unfortunately (or fortunately), within a week of being elected as Australia’s new Prime Minister, Mr. Rudd is making it very clear where he truly stands now. Following is the beginning of the article ‘Public servants will advise me, not God: Rudd’ from the Daily Telegraph on Friday November 30th 2007.

‘Public servants will advise me, not God: Rudd’ - Daily Telegraph

KEVIN Rudd makes no secret of his religious beliefs, but as prime minister he says he’ll take advice from public servants, not God.The committed Christian says he is not praying for guidance on how to run the country. Mr Rudd said he would keep religion and politics separate.

“I go to church on Sunday like millions of other Australians, and I am always conscious in the business of politics of what I don’t know, and therefore the need to seek advice,” Mr Rudd told Southern Cross Broadcasting in Melbourne. “That’s usually obtained, however, from well-crafted reports from public service advisers.”

Mr Rudd said his faith had been part and parcel of his life for 30 years. While it would colour his decisions, it would not play a major role, he said.

“I’m as flawed and failed as the next person when it comes to living up to the high standards laid down by the principles of Christianity,” he said. “That’s part of who I am, that’s part of who I’ll be in the future.

“But I’ve always said when it comes to the business of government, it’s a process where rational discussion, rational debate, rational decision-making must be at the absolute core, but always informed by deep values of what is decent and fair for people.”

Australians do NOT like politicians invoking "God" in their official capacity. Former PM John Howard is as committed a Christian as is Kevin Rudd and at no time in his 11 years as PM did he bring religion into his job.

Interesting response Evan. You have obviously reasoned it out to a certain extant and don't mind saying that your conclusion "sucks". I have to admit I admire that. I am not questioning your (congregation's) commitment of faith here. I do question the power of prayer in this matter but the fact that there are hands physically at work here speaks volumes. I have always been more impressed with "doers" than "sayers", regardless of religious/philosophical belief.

I also agree that not all churchs are "wacko" but that is a point that will be hard to take by some of my collegues here. But as has been said "you're on our turf now". So be ready.

P.S.: Thanks for not signing in as Anonymous. It is so irritaing when people do that as we generally cannot follow the conversations. It also gives that impression that one is hiding behind the shield of anonymity.

Just so I have it correct...people who get too much rain (ie flooding) are totally right in the eyes of god and are holy people and do not have any infidels among them? Wonder how all the people in the Bible belt of the southeast US (drought area) and areas that historically flood think about that.

This story shows that during the Howard years the religious right in Australia has become more confident. Under Howard there was a deliberate courting of groups like HillSong. I'm no fan of Kevin Rudd (even tho I am a member of the ALP) but I think his rejection of the fundamentalists is welcome.

Evan, I'd quite like to hear the details of these multi-billion dollar aqueduct projects your church is participating in. I must admit to being skeptical because it seems the Christian right and corruption are inseparable. We've witnessed several scams in HillSong not least one where they defrauded money from the federal government. When I hear about huge aqueduct projects from you that I have never heard about from anywhere else I think someone, somewhere, is being misled.

On another point, I'd like to ask why did Australia warrant the interest of your church? There are millions of people in the world whose very existence is at peril and have much less means than Australians to remedy the situation. Why not spend your time and energy on third world countries (no, NZ doesn't qualify) that actually need that help? I, for one, would applaud any effort that does something demonstrably positive for people who really need it.

Steve

Perhaps they are praying to the wrong god. Allah bring us some rain goddamit.

Huey wrote: “Evan are you saying that your church believes this to be a random act of nature and that your congreagtion is praying with their hands and feet? That no one believes that your almighty, controls every falling leaf god didn't do this? ...”

Evan responded “Huey that is a great question which has often kept me up at night. For instance, if I believed God controlled the nature in Australia and in his sovereignty chose to withhold rain, then wouldn't I be going against god by supporting this? However, the alternatives then would either be god doesn't control nature or he does and withholds desperately needed rain. All choices suck.”

Questions like that stopped keeping me up at night when i concluded that God does not exist.

Anyway, kudos to your congregation for its assistance with the aqueducts. Matthew 10:42.

the deeper in the woods you go, the more nuts you see. Yogi Bear

This world is truly full of nuts. Religious mostly. Reason help us!

stevie said...
"Evan, I'd quite like to hear the details of these multi-billion dollar aqueduct projects your church is participating in. I must admit to being skeptical because it seems the Christian right and corruption are inseparable. We've witnessed several scams in HillSong not least one where they defrauded money from the federal government. When I hear about huge aqueduct projects from you that I have never heard about from anywhere else I think someone, somewhere, is being misled.

On another point, I'd like to ask why did Australia warrant the interest of your church? There are millions of people in the world whose very existence is at peril and have much less means than Australians to remedy the situation. Why not spend your time and energy on third world countries (no, NZ doesn't qualify) that actually need that help? I, for one, would applaud any effort that does something demonstrably positive for people who really need it."

There is a local church in Brisbane that we support. They are the one in whom we receive information from. It is their opinion that Australia will soon start the aqueduct plan, if that happens we will join in financially and any other method desired. I wish we could be more involved at the forefront but a project that big is out of or league and expertise. We can only jump in and help someone else drive it.

In Australia most of our efforts are towards the Aboriginals, a people group who has been absolutely decimated by their government.We are also involved with other counties, mostly Philippines, Kenya, and Mexico.

I'm not trying to paint a picture of our church being perfect or solving any world problems. My point is our church cares about issues in Australia and are doing something about besides prayer or condeming "sinnners".

Glory be to God! Where are all the Atheist that are always demanding evidence? This shows God answers the prayers of the faithful. God reveals himself in bits and chunks to those that open their hearts to him. God was displeased with the secular ways of this place and this is the clearest indicator of what is in the future for the true believer. The people that are worshipping Allah are having drought because they are worshipping false idols. Pray for forgiveness for the good of all and the health of the planet.

Only God can stop global climate change.

Anonymous #6074686095903681588 wrote: “Glory be to God! Where are all the Atheist that are always demanding evidence? This shows God answers the prayers of the faithful. God reveals himself in bits and chunks to those that open their hearts to him. God was displeased with the secular ways of this place and this is the clearest indicator of what is in the future for the true believer.”

Wonderful! Now, maybe you can explain why the holy rolling, God-fearing, Jesus-freaking Bible Belt of the southeastern USA was hit with a drought this year.

This atheist is right here, saying that i see evidence that shit happens, and sometimes it just happens to look like goddidit. Other times, it happens to make God look like a real bastard, but you ignore those times.

Anonymous #9117948959290621070 wrote: “Only God can stop global climate change.”

Therefore, it is our solemn duty to sit down, shut up, do nothing, and die, right?

Ricky said "Therefore, it is our solemn duty to sit down, shut up, do nothing, and die, right?"

First of all Ricky, calm down a bit. Release this hostility. And just for a second try to accept the idea that God loves you and is willing to help take away your anger and pain.

I can understand your anger and confusion with regards to the drought in the South. There are many bad things going on and the bible says that our God is a vengeful God. Yes, it's true that there are many good God fearing people in the South but there is a lot of secular activity going on there too. I'm not saying I can pruport to know why God chose a drought for the South. He works in mysterious ways but let me ask you this...The drought got you to post these questions regarding God's existence. Maybe it is God calling you. Perhaps if He can save just one more soul (you) it justifies the lack of rain. God's knocking...please at least consider answering the door. Peace be with you.

Sometimes I swear you atheists write stuff under the name anon pretending to be christians just to make us look bad. Sadly I know that's not true.

Anonymous,

The only thing 'knocking' is the two brain cells you have in your empty head banging about.

This is truly like the Matrix. Only a few have the power to fight the programming and wake up to reality. Everyone else is too fragile to give up on the illusion.

Evan

Thanks for taking the time to answer my point. I am all for people solidarising and working to right the wrongs against the indigenous people of this country - so I join Ricky in saying kudos to you and your church for that.

The religious right here has done a lot to discredit what might be a positive contribution. In the first case simply because evangelicalism is about the most selfish religions of which I know and secondly because of the endemic corruption. I mentioned HillSong because they obtained a large federal government grant for indigenous people which ended up in Church coffers and not with the people it was intended for. In the end the Federal govt demanded the return of the money.

This particular church was closely linked to the Liberal party which was the former government. The keynotes of that administration were a point-blank refusal to say sorry to the "Stolen Generation" and a general contempt for indigenous people. Although we disagree on religion I'm pleased you have a social conscience. I hope you carefully scrutinise the actions of your church leaders.

Steve

Anonymous #4457837672557132930 wrote: “First of all Ricky, calm down a bit.”

OK, as soon as i finish LMAO. :-D

Anonymous wrote: “Release this hostility.”

What hostility?

Anonymous wrote: “And just for a second try to accept the idea that God loves you and is willing to help… take away your anger and pain.”

Oh, i tried that for a long time. Decades. Evidently, God has a lot more patience than he gave me; it’s as if he doesn’t exist or something.

Anonymous wrote: “… take away your anger and pain.

“I can understand your anger and confusion with regards to the drought in the South.”

What anger? What pain? Well, uh... if you don’t desist, after this warning, in your failed attempt to read my mind, i might get a little miffed at you. However, i harbor no ill will towards impersonal forces of nature, nor do i find them confusing.

Anonymous wrote: “[existential fallacy]”

Fuck you. Peace. :-)

_________________

evan wrote: “Sometimes I swear you atheists write stuff under the name anon pretending to be christians just to make us look bad. Sadly I know that's not true.”

Evan, ever hear of Poe’s Law?

It is to laugh! Do these god/allah folk even think how stupid they sound??

“Leader Danny Nalliah said moral decline, not climate change, was responsible for the drought.

‘Australia has turned away from Almighty God … the sinful condition of mankind has contributed to the stem of rainfall,’ he said.”


Apparently those heathen, godless aborigines learned early on to make do without rain…

“…the pastor’s position is similar to that of Muslim cleric Mohammed Omran. This year Sheik Omran preached the drought, climate change and pollution were due to Australians’ lack of faith in Allah.

‘The fear of Allah is not there. So we have now a polluted earth, a polluted water, a wasteland,’ he told a meeting.”

Curse those clever, godless aborigines in their (okay, formerly) pristine, unpolluted lands! However did/do they do it?? (without God or Allah, that is)

So prayer is just like fantasy magic?
The more 'mana' you feed into the spell the more likely it is to work.

With a database of 10,000 conjurers all chanting the same thing rain is sure to come!

SpaceMonk wrote:
With a database of 10,000 conjurers all chanting the same thing rain is sure to come!
---
Space',

Or perhaps it will sound like nothing more than BACKGROUND NOISE to god's TWO ears, much like playing 10,000 songs at the same time would sound.

Maybe they should hand out time-slots to all 10,000 folks, so each can pray to god in single-file.

We wouldn't want god getting all confused as to what these xtians want, now would we?


ATF (who wonders if god has installed spy-microphones all over the planet to hear us with)

Idiot xtian wrote: "Glory be to God! Where are all the Atheist that are always demanding evidence? This shows God answers the prayers of the faithful. God reveals himself in bits and chunks to those that open their hearts to him. God was displeased with the secular ways of this place and this is the clearest indicator of what is in the future for the true believer. The people that are worshipping Allah are having drought because they are worshipping false idols. Pray for forgiveness for the good of all and the health of the planet."

What you brainwashed ignorant sheep forget is that eventually it will rain, even in arid desert conditions. If gawd listened to prayer (if he even existed), droughts, famine, disease etc would not exist. Droughts are caused by changes in global atmospheric patterns and ocean currents. There are cyclical paterns that are now being discovered via mathematical modelling. It is not prayer causing rain but rather the correct conditions and upper atmospheric winds delivering the moisture in the correct combinations. The same reasons it snows like hell in Saskatchewan and rains like hell in the South American rainforest. I'm sorry that this may be too complex for your small cerebral cortex to understand. After all, you need someone to read the bible to you (pastor/priest/minister) because of your inability to think for yourself.

Anonymous wrote:
This shows God answers the prayers of the faithful. God reveals himself in bits and chunks to those that open their hearts to him
---------
I agree with the fundie's "chunks" comment.
Yup, you heard me right, I'm agreeing with this here xtian.

See, I also have found that god's revelations come in "CHUNKS" as well.....Vomiting Chunks that is.


ATF(who thinks god has big maintenance problems with his heavenly weather machine)

Christians blame everything that goes wrong on the devil and non-believers.

That's always their excuse for violent acts of nature.

ATF Said:
"ATF(who thinks god has big maintenance problems with his heavenly weather machine)"

That's because these church goers have not been putting enough money in the offering plate on Sunday.

God is behind on his funds, so therefore he cannot afford to fix his malfunctioning weather machine.

He's already having a hard enough time paying the heat bill for hell.

Plus I think there has been a coal shortage. Satan, who God has placed as the General Manager of hell and his workers have all gone on strike, and are demanding better pay from God.

Can't Spell Christ Without Shit wrote:
He's already having a hard enough time paying the heat bill for hell.
Plus I think there has been a coal shortage
---
Hey CSCWS,

The coal shortage is understandable this time of year.
Not because it's being used for heat, but because Santa is putting tons of coal in stockings this year for all the sinful, errr, "naughty" fundies out there.

ATF (Who's glad he doesn't use coal for heating)

ATF, boy I sure remember as a kid heating with coal,(we was pretty poor). But, whats so funny about it know is, one time running late, being in a hurry to catch the bus. one morning i didn't have time to take a bath, and on the way to school riding the bus, the kids where laughing at me and I did'nt know why, until I got to school and went to the bathroom, and when I looked into the mirror, all you could see was the white around my eyes; the rest of my face was almost black from the suete (sic) of the coal-stove.HAHAHA
Peace, Roger