News of interest to former Christians
The new co-host of "The View," Sherri Shepherd, yesterday insisted Christianity was older than ancient Greece, and even Judaism.
Shepherd - who said earlier this year that she didn't know if the world was flat or round - said during a short-lived discussion of Greek philosophy on yesterday's show that she was pretty sure nothing "predated Christians."
The verbal jousting began when Joy Behar mentioned watching a History Channel show on the Greek philosopher Epicurus and his definition of happiness.
"Keep in mind that probably when [Epicurus] was around, there was no Jesus Christ stuff going on," said co-host Whoopi Goldberg said.
"They still had Christians back then," Shepherd interrupted.
"They had gods," Goldberg said.
"They had Christians," Shepherd insisted. "And they threw 'em to the lions."
"I think this might predate that," Goldberg said.
"I don't think anything predated Christians," Shepherd shot back.
Behar then piped in.
"The Greeks came first, then the Romans, then the Christians," she said.
"Jesus came first, before then," Shepherd said.
"No, not on paper," Goldberg sadly said, meaning the Bible.
Barbara Walters was not there yesterday to see the latest bizarre moment for Shepherd, a 40-year-old comedian and actress who was hired last fall to replace Star Jones on the panel of the morning women's show.
Born in Chicago and raised a Jehovah's Witness, according to reports, she became a born-again Christian after moving to LA.
Last September, after saying she did not believe in evolution, Whoopi asked her rhetorically if also believed the earth was flat.
Taking the question seriously, Shepherd responded: "I don't know."
The following day she said she'd just been flustered by the question and did, indeed, know the earth was round.
Neither the show or Shepherd had any comment yesterday.
Story Links
Shepherd - who said earlier this year that she didn't know if the world was flat or round - said during a short-lived discussion of Greek philosophy on yesterday's show that she was pretty sure nothing "predated Christians."
The verbal jousting began when Joy Behar mentioned watching a History Channel show on the Greek philosopher Epicurus and his definition of happiness.
"Keep in mind that probably when [Epicurus] was around, there was no Jesus Christ stuff going on," said co-host Whoopi Goldberg said.
"They still had Christians back then," Shepherd interrupted.
"They had gods," Goldberg said.
"They had Christians," Shepherd insisted. "And they threw 'em to the lions."
"I think this might predate that," Goldberg said.
"I don't think anything predated Christians," Shepherd shot back.
Behar then piped in.
"The Greeks came first, then the Romans, then the Christians," she said.
"Jesus came first, before then," Shepherd said.
"No, not on paper," Goldberg sadly said, meaning the Bible.
Barbara Walters was not there yesterday to see the latest bizarre moment for Shepherd, a 40-year-old comedian and actress who was hired last fall to replace Star Jones on the panel of the morning women's show.
Born in Chicago and raised a Jehovah's Witness, according to reports, she became a born-again Christian after moving to LA.
Last September, after saying she did not believe in evolution, Whoopi asked her rhetorically if also believed the earth was flat.
Taking the question seriously, Shepherd responded: "I don't know."
The following day she said she'd just been flustered by the question and did, indeed, know the earth was round.
Neither the show or Shepherd had any comment yesterday.
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Ernie
Purposeful intellectual retardation at its best.
Why would anyone need to be so blatantly dense?
Sadly, I don't think it is.
As for this Shepard woman, I think she's a fine, fine looking woman, but DUUUUMB!
Christianity WAS first. The world begins with the Christian God CREATING the world. Adam and Eve were techinically Christian's under God's law. Then the people after them were under God's law too. Since the true god is triune with Jesus (Christianity), then yes..Christianity and Christians were first. While it is certainly TRUE that Greeks and Romans did exist before Jesus Christianity was existing before Romans and Greeks. Read your bible and read your history books before doing articles.
I'll have to go with what seo said...
That's sad.
Purposeful intellectual retardation at its best.
Why would anyone need to be so blatantly dense?
But I would say HOW could anyone be so blatantly dense?
Happy Holidays!
"Read your bible and read your history books before doing articles."
I hate to break the bad news to you, but your bible is "Obsolete".
Time to move on with your life pal. Jesus is not coming back for your sorry ass.
I don't understand this thought that Christianity predates everything else. Even if I went with a solely biblical history of the earth, it seems that the god of the Jews was the one who created the world, and after Jesus's appeared on the scene, some Jews became the first Christians. It isn't even biblically correct to say that Xianity was first... but I'm not surprised that some people are so ignorant of what their own beloved Bible says.
For those of you who are Ex-Christian, try and disprove someone you say doesn't exist... not Jesus Christ the man, but Jesus Christ who is a part of the trinity.
What percent of all truth do you know? If God does not exist in the element of truth you know, then how do you know He does not exist in that element of truth that you don't know?
There is more historical and scientific evidence to prove the Bible and its claims than any other document in the existence of the world...and MANY times over. If you were brave enough to search for TRUE "truth", you would find that out. I'll bet you did not do enough historical research to find out that even Darwin recanted his ex-Christian views on his deathbed.
It is a shame that almost every single Ex-Christians has to resort to sarcasm and ripping apart those who have a different opinion in order to cover their insecurities. Try to have a serious discussion based on well thought out and researched information.
Christianity WAS first. The world begins with the Christian God CREATING the world. Adam and Eve were techinically Christian's under God's law. Then the people after them were under God's law too. Since the true god is triune with Jesus (Christianity), then yes..Christianity and Christians were first. While it is certainly TRUE that Greeks and Romans did exist before Jesus Christianity was existing before Romans and Greeks. Read your bible and read your history books before doing articles.
If you really believe that was her intent, I've got a bridge to sell you. The clincher is when she says that the Christians were being thrown to the lions before then. Unless you think she was thinking of Daniel?
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
fjell
Well I know SOMEONE who hasn't done any research....do the words "urban legand" mean anything to you?
Well I know SOMEONE who hasn't done any research....do the words "urban legand" mean anything to you?
I'm pretty sure no one on this site has ever considered being brave enough and searching for the "real" truth, as you suggest. We ex-Christians are generally just a bunch of mindless hypocrits---I expect none of us really knew much about the "real" Jesus--wow that part about Darwin really sunk my boat!!!
I think you've single-handedly re-converted me! Thanks!
I have already addressed this at http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2007/07/it-wasnt-easy-for-me-to-face-reality.html.
Brenda said:
"There is more historical and scientific evidence to prove the Bible and its claims than any other document in the existence of the world...and MANY times over."
Uh... no Brenda, there just is not. Not one bit. We know that there are claims for such but they don't stand up to even the most rudimentary examinations. And no, nobody knows all the truthes, not even you. But that does not provide proof for your assertions, nor does it imply that they must be taken seriously. Finally, Darwin did NOT recant on his deathbed. That bit of missinformation was started by a deceitful fundy who wasn't even there and despite the repeated statements to the contrary, made by the family members who were there, christians to this day continue to present this little piece of fiction as fact. By the way, thanks for the use of a name instead of "Anonymous".
Sorry Mattl, I didn't hear you, I was chambering a round.
PULL!
Really? There's more evidence for the Bible than, say, a book about Kennedy's assassination? Or yesterday's newspaper? Those are documents, too. And don't forget, you said right there that the Bible has more evidence than any document, ever, in the history of the world. I really don't think so...
Anonymous: I seriously doubt the creator of the universe considers himself his own risen son's convert. The hierarchy, if any at all should flow the other way.
Dear All II & Pardon my ignorance II: And weren't the first Christians AD actually roman catholic?
What have you two been smoking? This kinda thinking happens when you wrap Mauii Wowie in pages of the bible and smoke it. Jaysus why don't you just pull your heads out of your asses and really read
your bible. You are both totally delusional and should not be allowed to procreate.
Um, this is a new one---"TRUE truth"...as opposed to..?..?..?.. what?....the "FALSE truth", right? LMAO!
Only religion, and it's one-size-fits-all mentality, can make people say such idiotic things.
If you don't believe the bible is a real part of history, then what makes you think that Christopher Columbus' discovery of America back in 1492 is valid then?
Please provide evidence of Columbus actually coming here and discovering America. I need proof of this.
Why is Jesus awesome? subtract that he died for my sins and tell me; why? would you say Jesus is awesome if...say you were living in physical pain 24/7 365? would you still consider him awesome if it were "God's will" that you live in pain 24/7?
Please know I'm not attacking you. I'm really curious about the answer to my question.
And where did you hear that, Brenda? Please share your source with us, okay? Is this something your pastor said? Something you got off the internet? I'm sure you checked it out thoroughly, right?
If you want to provide any examples of Biblical "facts", please provide secular, non-biased sources.
We don't. We assume he does not exist until there is any good reason to believe he does. Just like everything else. How about this:
What percent of all truth do you know? If the dragon in my garage does not exist in the element of truth you know, then how do you know it does not exist in that element of truth that you don't know?
Convinced there's a dragon in my garage? Didn't think so.
"There is more historical and scientific evidence to prove the Bible and its claims than any other document in the existence of the world...and MANY times over."
The historical and scientific evidence does not validate and in many cases CONTRADICTS the bible. "It's fair to say that the bible contains equal amounts of fact, history, and pizza." -Penn Jillete. Never have truer words been spoke.
"If you were brave enough to search for TRUE "truth", you would find that out. I'll bet you did not do enough historical research to find out that even Darwin recanted his ex-Christian views on his deathbed."
That's a widespread myth among Christians. Darwin did nothing of the sort, the woman who claimed he did had a conflict of interest (she herself was trying to convert him), and his family denied this. Propagating this myth is an insult to Darwin and all the other great men who pioneered science in the face of such an insurmountable opposition.
"It is a shame that almost every single Ex-Christians has to resort to sarcasm"
What's wrong with sarcasm? If sarcasm is your whole argument, that's an ad hominem fallacy and not a valid argument. If, as most atheists do, you tear their argument to shreds logically and insult them, that's fine.
"and ripping apart those who have a different opinion in order to cover their insecurities."
It's not to cover insecurities. It's because those people are delusional and powerful. They are dangerous.
"Try to have a serious discussion based on well thought out and researched information."
Likewise.
Remind me never to buy any DVDs with Shepherd in them.
As far as the bible is concerned, it is the worst written book of bullshit ever and should be confined to the crappy fiction shelves, or better still used in a book burning.
"If you don't believe the bible is a real part of history, then what makes you think that Christopher Columbus' discovery of America back in 1492 is valid then?"
How do we know Columbus discovered America in 1492 for certain? The short answer is we don't. However, we do have a mountain of evidence supporting the claim. We have written records from multiple sources. We know America exists. We have multiple historians using the best in critical methods to examine new evidence and re-examine old evidence. So the odds are good Columbus discovered America in 1492.
What do we have with the Bible? ....Well an invisible guy using some unknown method transmitted knowledge you in an unknown way that you can trust the Bible. Additionally, there is no need to check any facts because through another unknown medium the invisible guy will provide you with the translation and correct interpretation. Through this method you can obtain 100% certainty.
I give up. Historical criticism and honesty can't compete with divining truth through the Holy Spook.
I’ll bet you didn’t even search your own Christian Web sites to find out that that story is a bald-faced lie. You don’t know enough of Christian points of view, let alone opposing points of view, to debate effectively. How can you lecture us about doing research?
Take this as a lesson. You know less than you think you do, and we are better read than you think we are.
Yes, part of history. Okay, well, there have been many fables throughout "history" that depict supernatural phenomenon, and/or, people with super-human powers---similar to, but not necessarily surpassing the ridiculous stories depicted in the Holy Bible...i.e..talking snakes, shrubs, and donkeys, etc.
Now, because these types of stories are found throughout "history", this does not mean that said phenomenon and said feats of strength have a referent in reality. At best, there may be stories of actual mortal beings, but chances are, they have been seriously embroidered.
Jesus is awesome!(therefore, God exists!) continues...If you don't believe the bible is a real part of history, then what makes you think that Christopher Columbus' discovery of America back in 1492 is valid then?
Please provide evidence of Columbus actually coming here and discovering America. I need proof of this.
Okay, but first, you provide me with any history book, text book, or literature, that offers you the information about Columbus, conditionally. In other words, show me where it is that it says that you MUST believe that "Columbus discovered America", yada, yada... or else, you'll suffer some type of bodily harm.
Waiting.
I have seen this word used quiet a bit on this site, and I have no idea what the hell it even means.
Thanks.
"When I read stuff like this, I'm glad I don't have to call myself American. (I am Australian). I'm glad I don't have to endure what you Yanks pass off as comedy."
You are very fortunate then.
I may get flamed for what I am about to say by many people on here.
I have thought about leaving this giant toilet bowl that is full of "Christian Turds" called, "America" and moving down to your wonderful country called Australia. However my only draw back is you guys don't get much snow down your way.
It would be nice to live in the most secular nation in the world without having to to put up with a bunch of bible beating bastards.
Can someone please explain what the term, "ad hominem" means?
----
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.
Other common subtypes of the ad hominem include the ad hominem circumstantial, or ad hominem circumstantiae, an attack which is directed at the circumstances or situation of the arguer; and the ad hominem tu quoque, which objects to an argument by characterizing the arguer as acting or arguing in accordance with the view that he is arguing against.
You're welcome
Christopher Columbus did not discover America, then who did? (Another shocker), It was already discovered by the indigenous peoples already here.
And another all time shocker; (They (the indigenous peoples) were human beings!!!) (And not infidels or savage heathens)
America was discovered by the (white race) and they brought with them their black slaves and their bible and their white traditions and their white customs and their white democrasy and their effecient weapons black powder guns, their killing machines.
The native indigeous peoples already discovered and claimed this land.
This land was invaded by white people and it was taken away from the native Indians by force and with approval of the white mans bible god.
All you professed christians are just repeating garbage that was brought over here by the white man.
You christians are murderers and you are repeating biblical nonsense that condones killing and invading and stealing other peoples lands, you have absolutely no right to be on this land, even today in 2007 soon to be 2008.
Christians are nothing more than worthless scum.
Our history books have been lying by omission to the white people's children to make C.C. a great discoverer and admirable christian.
Our history books have ommitted the parts about the millions of Native Americans that have been killed and moved off their own land by the white race.
Anyone ever hear of Indian Reservations??? Anyone know how Indian Reservations came about?
We should have white christian reservations, and let them pray to their jebus so he will help them and save them from themselves.
It's probably best you remain "anonymous"...goober.
Now the show must be taken as a joke, because thats what it was. Being stubborn in a discussion on TV is either a joke or stupid absurd hypocricy.
So there, in all religions someone was the first ever in this God-forsaken world (no pun intended), because we all want to be first. But let us realize there was someone before Dinosaurs. The point is Dinosaurs were before us. Maybe Cockroaches will be all that remains here on this planet.
We all need to worship the "Monkey" religion. Which is the true religion.
fjell
Urban Legend. Plus, did you know that the first pope only became christian on his deathbed, and only because the christians would destroy his empire otherwise?
...Since the true god is triune with Jesus...
someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jesus, according to the Bible REFUTE the claim that he's God and goes so far as to repeatedly refer himself as "Son of Man" and refutes his disciple's claim of him being God's son? Doesn't he, in the Bible, claim himself as "coming" having been "sent"(as in I have come to fulfill the law, or ...sent by the Father...), as opposed to Yahweh's answer to Moses of "I am that I am" meaning the former is telling his followers that he wasn't here before but now he's arrived and the latter is telling his follower that he just exists, and leave it at that? Looks like anony and Shepherd have been shown factually incorrect by their own holy book...
www.godscustomercarecenter.com for the final answer. Arie
He was also born in the Middle-East, which is unlikely to make him Caucasian, which is how most artists depict him.
Also, the Greeks invented the word Christian, before that they were just Jews
Why doesn't God heal Amputees?
People from all over the world proclaim that through prayer they're healed from diseases, cancer, etc.
But what about the Amputees?
They Pray, does God heal their limbs?
Why shouldn't he? He's supposedly healing everyone else. What does he have against Amputees?
And don't say he is trying to stay hidden, because if he wanted to be hidden then the bible wouldn't have him sending floods, burning cities, etc.
And don't give me the 'they'll be healed in the afterlife', cause why not now? How come the cancer patients and the others get their prayers answered?
The only answer that cannot have a paradox,
is that God is imaginary.
The bible is repulsive.
Brenda is blindly following a story as truth from fear of the unknown. She & other religious persons is not yet willing to admit that everything she has believed this far into her life is nothing more than a business whose sole purpose is to stay in business.
Need Proof? Read Ishmael, By Daniel Quinn or visit
www. godisimaginary. com
<a href="http://www.godisimaginary.com/">God Is Imaginary</a> → God Is Imaginary
That’s a very good Web site, BTW, along with its partner alluded to earlier, Why Won’t God Heal Amputees.
After all that, after all the pointless debates, after all truth is not debatable, a person might just get bored and decide to have fun with it. When ever a Christian starts talking to me about Intelligent Design, I say "Oh, that crackpot theory that states mankind was genetically engineered by space aliens?" They of course return with, "It is not space aliens it was God". I then say "No, no, no you are referring to Creationism, Intelligent Design states, that we were created by space aliens." This will go back and forth, with the Christian trying to take the discussion seriously, and myself just having fun with it.
You can bend anything around to make it "look" like truth, that is why con-artists can be so successful.
Oh, as for Native Americans, yes it's sad what happened to them 200 years ago. None of us living now are responsible for that. Stealing land is a human practice that predates Christianity by thousands of years. How about we let go of the past and move on?
Glad to be an American.
Christ re-opened that legalism-free path to God. Yes, the deification and worship of Christ must inherently post-date Christ. However, the faith that he taught was more ancient than any comparable Jewish sect at the time.
To the Christians claiming that 'Christianty predates everything,' I have but a few things to say to you. First of all, prove it.
You have a claim, but no evidence. And no, the Bible is not evidence. Lemme break out a favorite of mine . . . lessay you go to a used car lot. The salesman there claims that the '95 Ford Explorer on his lot gets 200 miles to the gallon, and his a mass relay engine built into it that will allow you to travel to other galaxies and communicate with galactic civilizations. Oh, and it has a toaster oven. "Fantastic!" you say. "Show me these features." No one in their right mind is going to believe this salesman. If the salesman shows you a user's manual that has pictures and descriptions of the technology and fuel mileage he has mentioned, you will still doubt. The only way you will believe is if the salesman demonstrates these claims to you.
Why, then, do you not do the same with Christianity? Because it is EXACTLY the same. What you have are fantastic claims; ergo, you need fantastic evidence to back it up. What you are, in essence, doing is holding up a opy of Harry Potter and saying, "I know people can fly on broomsticks because this book says they can." No doubt real things are mentioned in Harry Potter - places and technology - but that does not validate the fantastic claims within. If say:
1. California is a real place
2. A homeless man dry-humping a pile of fecal matter told me that Elvis is still alive in California
3. Therefore, Elvis is still alive in California, because California is real
Fantastic claims, fantastic evidence, Christians. SHOW me Elvis. SHOW me this car. SHOW me Jesus and God and Heaven. SHOW me that the claims in the Bible are met TO THE LETTER, and not in some half-assed "warm feeling in your heart". I'll be waiting.
Now that I have torn apart the faulty logic qith which you use to "prove" the Bible true, I say to unto you: you do not know.
You do not know that the universe was created by the Christian God. You will say over and over again that you do, but you do not. No one knows the exact origins of the universe. Therefore, you say, Christianity MUST be true. Lack of evidence in one area, Christians, does not equate to proof in an area where there is NO evidence. Just because nobody knows the exact origins of the universe, does not mean that the explanation of Christianity is any better because it CLAIMS to be true.
And guess what, Christians? It's okay to not know. I don't know. You don't see me fretting over it. I DO KNOW that the God of every religion on the face of the earth, including and ESPECIALLY Christianity, does not exist. Why? Because I have tested the claims of the Bible. They are not true. Ergo, the God of Christianity is either a liar or it does not exist. Pick one.
You can read more on this at www.godisimaginary.com. The claims of the Bible are tested and reuted thoroughly on this site.
That leads me to my third point: did you ever stop to think, Christians, that maybe everything you hear from Christian sources isn't looking out for your best interests?
"That leads me to my third point: did you ever stop to think, Christians, that maybe everything you hear from Christian sources isn't looking out for your best interests?"
That's a very, very valid point. And I do question. To say that my walk with God lacks confusion would be a lie. And the only thing that keeps me sane with the constant incoming differing opinions is the fact that each man/woman is told to work out their "own salvation". For me, that's been a huge release. No one can tell me God doesn't exist now I've had my share of personal one on one experiences, but working out the details is a often confusing deal, I admit. I'll let you know at the end of my journey what I concluded. Provided I can still type.
There's no point addressing Brenda if Brenda isn't going to come back and debate her points. I mean-really.
I suppose then there is no point in addressing jesus or god if they are not going to come back and a debate or address the points supposedly made by them in the bible.
I am still waiting for god to post a response....
Further, it would have been a fairer exchange had Brenda come back and participated. I think what keeps people in the position of constant smug self righteousness (and I'm not really addressing Brenda's content but rather the act of hit and run) is that actually participating in the dialog one starts requires an act of giving, and effort.
The oldest existing religion is Hinduism that predates Christianity by several thousand years.
Then came Buddhism about five hundred years before Christ and Islam came 600 years later.
Christianity is dated at the beginning of the Astrological Age of Pices--when the sun is born every morning in the constellation Pices. The next age is Aquarius occurring in less than 150 years--I think. Each age is 2,150 years. So, update your calendars cuz we are going to party in the age of Aquarius.
Even Judaism predated Christianity by a couple thousand years. Now Christianity is trying to assimilate the Hebrew history into its collective along with the other cultures and religions it has absorbed. Write the station and ask them to put someone on to explain the presence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the history of Pastafarianism which preexisted restaurants in France!
Personally, I don't find my relationship with Christ at all imaginary. You say my friend is imaginary, I say: I think not. Neither of us will ever actually prove our case to one another...its never ever gonna happen. I'm okay with that.
Anyhow, Brenda's tactics suck.
That all said, I should probably move on for now. Glad I came though.
plenty of people have "real" relationships with imaginary people. How many children write letters to Santa each year?
If you are not afraid of what you may find, visit www.godisimaginary.com or read the book Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn (as a previous poster suggests)
"I'm sorry but I have a problem with the hatred, expressed in this forum, toward Christians."
Nobody is forcing you to read the posts on here, so people can say what they want to.
RubyHypatia said...
"I was a good person as a Christian and I'm still a good person."
Not according to what the bible says. All people are evil, so don't call yourself good, because according to your God nobody is good.
RubyHypatia said...
"Oh, as for Native Americans, yes it's sad what happened to them 200 years ago. None of us living now are responsible for that."
Do you believe that any of us who are living today are responsible for Adam and Eve's sins and deserve to go to hell? After all that happened thousands of years ago and none of us who are living today are responsible for that. Yet you would probably justify God's actions and say that is just, however you don't feel responsible for what christians did to the indians. What is wrong with that picture?
RubyHypatia said...
"Glad to be an American."
You won't be in the 20 years. This country and it's people are a lot like the passengers who were aboard the "USS Titaic". Most Americans do not believe that this ship can sink. I guarantee this country will one day fall just like the Roman Empire did.
America has seen it's best days. It's educational system is a joke, it's government is crooked. I have found that countries like Australia, Canada, and Germany are way ahead of us when it comes to education and progress.
America thinks it can go around pushing other countries around and bullying them. We think we are so big that everyone else should conform to our standards. Apparently America thinks that we should be the "World Police" and tell other countries what to do. I would say it will be just a matter of time before other nations come against us and defeat us. May not happen right anytime soon, however I'm sure one day it will happen.
If anything that destroys this country it will be the greed and arrogance of it's people.
Hey, I was born here, my parents were born here, and my grandparents were born here. I have as much right to be here as any native American.
If you are a person of the "white race or black race," you have absolutely no "right" to exist on this American soil.
This land was invaded and stolen by white people whom claimed this land for themselves.
THE WHITE CHRISTIAN INVADERS MURDERED AND MASSACRED MILLIONS OF INNOCENT NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS
(THE ORIGINAL OWNERS OF THIS LAND)
AND PUT THE FEW STILL LIVING ON RESERVATIONS
If you support christianity, then you support murder, plain and simple.
You are so blinded by your modern day conveniences, but if I were to
come into your front yard and start killing innocent Indian children and cutting their heads off and burning them alive and claim that it was god's will that I kill them, I think you would have a change of mind about America and how it was stolen and taken away from it's original owners.
This land belongs to the Native American Indians PERIOD!!
White and Black Americans will pay and will pay dearly for it's arrogance and it's agressive self-righteous philosophy.
What gives the natives the right to be on this soil? They were born here? Their ancestors were born here? So were mine. Sure, if you go back far enough they weren't all born here, but that's true also for the natives. They do not have any special right to the land that I don't have just because hundreds of years ago their ancestors were here and mine weren't. What matters is here and now, and I was born here. As far as I and the rest of the world are concerned, that means I have as much right to the land here as anyone else.
"THE WHITE CHRISTIAN INVADERS MURDERED AND MASSACRED MILLIONS OF INNOCENT NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS
(THE ORIGINAL OWNERS OF THIS LAND)
AND PUT THE FEW STILL LIVING ON RESERVATIONS"
They did. I didn't. No one alive in my lifetime did. I recognize that horrible things have happened, but unlike you, I recognize that they happened in the past. I don't blame the distant descendant for the ancestor's sins.
"If you support christianity, then you support murder, plain and simple."
1. I don't support Christianity (I pwned Brenda above).
2. No. Religion is a bad thing, for sure, and it is definitely not good for peace, but the act of being a Christian does not make you in favour of murder.
"You are so blinded by your modern day conveniences, but if I were to
come into your front yard and start killing innocent Indian children and cutting their heads off and burning them alive and claim that it was god's will that I kill them, I think you would have a change of mind about America and how it was stolen and taken away from it's original owners."
You're a fucking idiot, you know that? I was never claiming I have some God-given right to the land (as a matter of fact, you were claiming that other people do). I'm just saying that my ancestors don't matter and their ancestors don't matter. I was born here, the natives were born here, as far as I'm concerned we're both native.
"This land belongs to the Native American Indians PERIOD!!"
See above, strike "Indians", and add immigrants and I agree with you.
"White and Black Americans will pay and will pay dearly for it's arrogance and it's agressive self-righteous philosophy."
This can only be countered with this quote:
"Purposeful intellectual retardation at its best." -seo (above)
If you are a person of the "white race or black race," you have absolutely no "right" to exist on this American soil.
This land was invaded and stolen by white people whom claimed this land for themselves
Steve,
Why is it that almost every post of yours I've ever seen, about the white man stealing indian land or killing indians.
I swear you must be at least part indian to post this MUCH about that issue?
Curious to know
nightflight is speechless.
In Deaf culture, a Deaf person is defined as one who rejects the medical model of deafness. Any efforts to "cure" or "fix" a Deaf person is considered to be on par with racism. This is partly why cochlear implants are a threat to Deaf culture.
Jesus healed a deaf man in the Bible. Jesus is now linked directly to Hitler, though many people are simply freaking out over that connection at my blog.
*shrugs*
Unfortunately, stupidity predates all - Adam was stupid enough to eat the apple.
And Christians are still paying for that stupid act.
*wink*
:o)
Paotie
One of these days, I will post my ex-timonial. I am working on it now, alongside my epic fantasy novel, and both of these contain a tale of personal growth and discovery toward absolute personal revelation about one's place in the world. From what I've gathered from your post in response to mine (and just that post), you are a spiritual individual, perhaps a very liberal Christian, perhaps just a deist. Whatever the case, you are treading a path very similar to the one I tread, years ago. After escaping the psychotic, self-hating delusions of Christianity, I sought God in other religions, or in less strict forms of Christianity. But the thing I failed to realize, ominous, was once I applied tests to Christianity to determine if its was true or not, the same can be said of ALL religions, liberal or otherwise. This is why I have such a huge problem with even liberal, open-minded Christians that don't believe in a supernatural Christ. No matter how you look at it, it's still BS. We don't need religion. NO religion has given us truth relative to that religion alone. In other words, adherents of Christianity might preach kindness and forgiveness (in some situations), but these ideals are not uniquely Christian. They are uniquely HUMAN. It is HUMANS that come up with kindness and forgiveness, not gods.
In fact, we cannot say that ANYTHING in Christianity is unique to Christianity, as EVERY aspect of Christianity has been found in religions predating it. Why are we giving so much credit to a religion of thieves?
Ultimately, ominous, there is no point in continuing a 'journey' that does not mae any sense. The sooner people realize this, the better off we will be.
We've been lied to about the history of who discovered this land, the Indians were human beings, they were real people who had a love and a respect for this land and it's precious abondant resources and wild life.
The Indians, they were human beings that did not need to convert others to believe in a flying deadman zombie and threaten those who choose not to believe in such nonsense with a make believe hell.
The Indians were human beings that did not need politics to divide their peoples nor did they tax people in order to have control over their property.
The Indians were human beings that did not have a need to apply labels nor titles in order to make themselves appear to be more superior than others in order to control them and their money.
The white conquerers' had it made, they could have left all their nonsense rules and regulations behind or they could have followed their leader Jesus' advice and live humblely in peace and harmony with their human brothers the Indians, like two people getting into a boat and crossing a pond and leaving their indoctrined beliefs and traditions and customs behind in an attempt to lead and start new lives, had they not already been indoctrinated with their righteous indignation.
Had the Indians had firepower, it would be an intirely different situation today, it was not because the colonists' had a god on their side it was because the Indians were out gunned and murdered.
"Steve,
Why is it that almost every post of yours I've ever seen, about the white man stealing indian land or killing indians.
I swear you must be at least part indian to post this MUCH about that issue?"
We've all been taught that we are nothing without a title or labels.
When will we learn to recognize that we are all human beings of equality? But for some reason humans feel the need apply self-righteous labels to make themselves appear to be superior than other human beings.
As long as people are allowed to be looked upon and pretend to be superior above others for claiming to be a christain, this country will continue to go down hill, after all, the christians and muslims have their make believe gods approval to stake the claim of superiority over other human beings.
The Indians did not have a make believe gods' approval to claim superiority over the invading christians, nor did they have firepower to instantly kill people.
Secondly, you're the one promoting inequality. I am an evil white invader because of my ancestors, so I should be a lesser person and I should be sent back where I came from.
How are these two statements any different:
"All the Jews in America should go away to Israel because their ancestors killed Jesus."
"All the non-Indian people in America should go back to Europe because their ancestors killed the Indians"
The answer is they're not. They just have the names changed. One is considered more acceptable than the other, for some reason, but we enlightened folk see them on the same level. No one is saying the native Americans are lesser people, we're saying that everyone is equal, with which you are disagreeing.
I actually neglected to mention that I live in Canada, though I assume that won't change your bigoted opinion toward me. Here most crime is perpetrated by gangs with a similar mentality.
We're living in a pretty good harmony right now, Steve. It's assholes like you screwing it up.
Hey Steven. First I'd like to say I have no real understanding of what race I am in and to what degree. I could be all white given my Penn.-dutch, Scott-irish, german heritage that I was told I have. But there seems to be something else mixed in as I am dark complected with black hair and eyes.
My family geneology has yet to be solidly figured out and raceism may play a part as to why that is.(my aunts and uncles may want to hide something from themselves)
I never cared what I was made up from too much, I didn't think It mattered. My grandfather was adopted by a family of native americans(which tribe i don't know) which seems an odd thing to happen in the early 1900's if he was all white, don't you think? Now, my wife is part cherokee and mostly scottish and german. Which makes my kids partly native american, mostly not.
Since I can't stand to live where I am not welcome, how would you seperate us and where should we/I go to?
"Had the Indians had firepower, it would be an intirely different situation today, it was not because the colonists' had a god on their side it was because the Indians were out gunned and murdered."
Yes, if things were different then things would be different. I posit it was not simply a matter of unarmed Indians that made it easier for the whites to murder the indian, but also the depletion of indian population due to diseases. If it hadn't been for the introduction of foreign germs into the Indian populations before the settlers arrived, the whites would have been so outnumbered their firearms wouldn't have made a dent.
This is also a factor in the great abundance of wildlife. There were less natives to kill the game animals after the diseases wiped them out.
This was seen as divine providence in the eyes of the christian settlers, and is sometimes seen as such by christians today. Read a book called "The Light And The Glory". I don't remember who wrote it but it is a book of christian propoganda detailing the history of gods plan for the founding of this nation.(I kid you not)
So it makes me wonder if you are upset at all whites or just the christian idiots who think this way.
What I am trying to point out to anyone willing to listen is;
A culture of Human Beings was distrupted by what...what...what?
A philisophy of christianity....brought over here and started by Christopher Columbus, a self-righteous xtain.
Yes most of us are all living a life of luxury and perhaps if the white man had not come over here, we would all be living in tepees and wearing dear skins and moccasins right now.
I'm talking about white man and his religion, we have here in America a church on every corner and mega churches spewing that their god is the only real and true god and if you do not believe in such nonsense you're going to hell.
The bible in America is touted as the absolute 'TRUTH' a universal truth and there is no other source for truth other than the bible.
I'm trying to show that whole cultures of 'Human Beings' have been wiped out and totally distroyed and disrupted, there were
Indians that had hopes and plans for the future, totally wiped out by the white man and his philosophy that it was his gods' divine will that the Indians be killed in order to spread his gospel.
Nothing has changed here in America as far as religion is concerned, the bible is the absolute word of god and you better not get in the way of a christian, it would be easier for you if you pretend to be a christian, never tell a christian that you are an atheist, because they will immediately cast you as a heathen infidel destined for hell and they will declare that they will pray for you, because they have a direct hotline to their god because they are superior to you because they have a belief and you do not.
I wonder are there any self-
righteous christians in Canada or are they all just over here?
To stronger now,
No, I'm not mad at any race of peoples and my point is, a persons skin color is used to denote superiority and they conveniently used (and still use) the bible as a tool (weapon) to spread their divine providence.
The whole primise of what I write is trying to show the whole world that we all are just human beings.
I see no difference in looking at a person who claims to be a Jew or a Muslim or an Eskimo or Indian or White or Black person.
Somehow we are going to have to revert back to people being called 'Human Beings' first before we all destroy ourselves.
The bible shows all those diversities of people and it was alright for their god to kill and destroy whole tribes of peoples because it is the absolute truth, the bible is the final universal truth according to christains.
Can anyone see the danger of people claiming to be something they are not?
I would like to travel to Europe and see different countries, but I cannot because I am either viewed as a christian or and American.
Guess what? I'm a human being as we all are, but now we are limited to our own corner of the world because of differences infered by different beliefs, mostly religious beliefs.
When a person claims a specific title, especially a religious title they are trying to denote to you and other humans, that they are a special 'Human Being' they like to think that they hold an aire of superiority above other Human Beings, I think we forgot that we are Human Beings and we are worth more to society by claiming religious titles and the bigger the title the more people are to stoop and to put praise before them.
Can anyone see that is just exactly what the title holders want is praise?
The first thing the settelers did was build an alter to thank their god for surviving the long journey and the Indians would not bow down to their make believe god and this gave them the right in their minds to kill them.
The Indians did not have a book to judge people out of, christians and muslims do.
Now look at all the self-righteous churches in America, who built them? Mostly white and black peoples. Why? Because they brought that nonsense garbage over here with them, that's why.
Had C.C and the settlers brought over here with them the Qu'ran, this would be a Muslim nation right now.
"So it makes me wonder if you are upset at all whites or just the christian idiots who think this way."
Just pissed at christians and muslims who deem themselves to be more superior than regular human beings that do not subscribe to their silly and foolish beliefs.
First of all, I don't have a god, I'm not a Christian. Secondly, maybe you ought to read up on your ancient history so you will see that America is nothing like the Roman Empire, nor is it an empire at all. Rome required tribute from all the countries they conquered. This country tends to give it away. Rome didn't believe in freedom of speech, the press, or religion. We do. I can't believe you make such a comparison between us and them. Is there a colleseum down the road from where you like that makes entertainment out of half starved lions feasting on living people?
Yes, it's a pain being out numbered by Christians, and their holier-than-thou attitude is infuriating. We can all agree on that.
There is no reason being an American should stop you from traveling overseas.
At any rate, you're still blaming innocents. In the same way that not every white and black person is responsible for the deaths of indians, not every Christian is responsible for that attitude. I agree that any religion (organized or not) is a lapse in intelligence, and that that lapse in intelligence can be potentially deadly. But it isn't always. There are many Christians who are genuinely good people and would never dream of proclaiming themselves better than others by the fact of their Christianity. There are both extremes here and in the States, although people prefer to see only the self-righteous Christians in America and only the good Christians in Canada. We're both a mix of good and bad. Canada's not as great as it's made out to be.
All sorts of cultures have been wiped out in the past. It's time to just accept it and move on.
Remember that YOU are the one claiming that certain human beings are worse or less deserving than others for the actions of their ancestors. YOU were the one trying to make a distinction between human beings--those who should be here and those who shouldn't. I was just saying that we're all human beings, and our race or religion doesn't matter--we were all born here or emigrated here, so we're all natives Americans/Canadians.
Much evil springs from blaming people for things of which they are innocent. This is flat-out wrong, religious or secular.
I was just saying that we're all human beings, and our race or religion doesn't matter--we were all born here or emigrated here, so we're all natives Americans/Canadians.
Much evil springs from blaming people for things of which they are innocent
Very well said Tom !!
Just because you believe something to be true does not make it so.
"First of all, I don't have a god, I'm not a Christian. Secondly, maybe you ought to read up on your ancient history so you will see that America is nothing like the Roman Empire, nor is it an empire at all.
First of all, I did not realize you were not a christian. My fault there.
RubyHypatia said...
I can't believe you make such a comparison between us and them.
Why is that so shocking to you? I've heard that comparison made more than once from others also. Apparently you haven't. I don't need to do research on a bunch of history to make that point. I just know that this country is not immune to destruction.
I don't have any interest in reading up on ancient history. I find no benefit in doing so whatsoever. I have no interest in educating myself further on what I call "Trivial Matters" that do not effect me in my own personal life. Doing so would be nothing more than a waste of time for me. I've got bigger fish to fry.
That's another thing that is wrong with this country. Too many educated fools, and not enough people who have common sense. I have found that just having the "Know How" and being able to do a job effectively outweighs education 10 to 1. I am a firm believer in being "Self-Taught". I for one, do not subscribe to the mainstream and it's popular beliefs.
So what if the Roman Empire does not compare to us 100 percent. It doesn't have to. The facts are American is a greedy and corrupt nation. In this country all people seem to care about is money, and technology. Most Americans are fat and lazy. I'm not saying that about you in particular, I'm just stating the fact that most Americans are overweight. Most of them are so modernized that they would be too lazy to do any physical and manual labor.
"The facts are American is a greedy and corrupt nation. In this country all people seem to care about is money, and technology. Most Americans are fat and lazy. I'm not saying that about you in particular, I'm just stating the fact that most Americans are overweight. Most of them are so modernized that they would be too lazy to do any physical and manual labor."
I have a manual labor, physically demanding, job and so do countless other Americans. I work about 40 hours a week. Most of us work at least that much or more. And many, if not most, give to charity. As for being fat, we are genetically programmed to eat more in times of plenty so as to live though the lean time, which we don't have much of anymore. If we're greedy, it's because of human nature.
Christianity was the "resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" meme of the western world...
For those of you who are Ex-Christian, try and disprove someone you say doesn't exist... not Jesus Christ the man, but Jesus Christ who is a part of the trinity.
What percent of all truth do you know? If God does not exist in the element of truth you know, then how do you know He does not exist in that element of truth that you don't know?
There is more historical and scientific evidence to prove the Bible and its claims than any other document in the existence of the world...and MANY times over. If you were brave enough to search for TRUE "truth", you would find that out. I'll bet you did not do enough historical research to find out that even Darwin recanted his ex-Christian views on his deathbed.
It is a shame that almost every single Ex-Christians has to resort to sarcasm and ripping apart those who have a different opinion in order to cover their insecurities. Try to have a serious discussion based on well thought out and researched information. "
Ok Brenda.. just in case no one else has said this yet.. DARWIN DID NOT RECANT ON HIS DEATHBED. IT WAS A FALSE STORY MADE UP BY LADY HOPE. DARWIN'S DAUGHTER HENRIETTA STATES HERSELF LADY HOPE DIDN'T EVEN VISIT HER FATHER! Sorry for the caps.. Brenda you need to do your own research..
well, who cares what he said,...
December 28, 2007
It must be noisy in your head with all those voices wanting quality time with you. Your childish demands don't mean much around here. Go home and have a good cry for our souls. The burden of proof is on you to prove god and hezus are real beings. We live here, you don't. This is our house. Not yours. Nyah, nyah, nyah... Any religion based on the premise that a story about a girl given a magic fruit by a talking snake caused a god to have an existential meltdown and curse his own creation to death over a fucking fruit, just does not ring too much as true and without error! Then you claim we are the ones who have to prove your bullshit is not true, well, the voices in your head are just too much for you to resist.
"For those of you who are Ex-Christian, try and disprove someone you say doesn't exist..."
I need not disprove the improbable in order to not believe in it. If something seems too damned silly to exist, I'm not going to waste My precious time worrying about 100% accuracy.
Furthermore, you have the burden of proof here. If you think there's an invisible, immortal, omnipotent, omniscient being out there somewhere, it's up to you to provide evidence. Until you do that, we have no need or obligation to take you seriously.
"What percent of all truth do you know?"
Quite enough to get by, thanks. If I need to know something and don't, that's when I go looking for answers.
"There is more historical and scientific evidence to prove the Bible and its claims than any other document in the existence of the world..."
False, false, false. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself for making such an ignorant assertion. Percentage-wise, the birth certificate or driver's licence of anyone on this site is far, far more accurate than the Bible.
If you disagree, and think the Bible is absolutely, completely infallible and full of Truthiness, please Fed-Ex one (1) talking snake to Me at your earliest convenience.
Then you can help the archeological community find the artifactual evidence for that bunch of escaped Israelites who supposedly wandered around on the Sinai Peninsula for forty years.
And, when you're done with that, please explain why no one in Jerusalem wrote down anything about earthquakes, solar eclipses, or zombies wandering the streets at the alleged time of the Crucifiction.
"It is a shame that almost every single Ex-Christians has to resort to sarcasm..."
This is our site, not yours. This is a place for *us* to rant about *our* experiences, not a place for *you* to preach at us. If you don't like it, stop reading and just go away.
I'm posting this just to clear it up for anyone who might've never heard of the idea that the Christian god has three "parts".
In order for Christians to claim that Christianity has been around since the beginning, they would have to say that everyone, before Jesus came to earth, is in hell because they did not accept Jesus as their way to god. "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father but through me".
Wait, what about evolution and the hundreds of years of scientific progress made. The logical explanations of things that would have previously been associated with God. There are many things that even Xians know are true that are biblically attributed to the mass imaginary friend.
You obviously didn't read my post that well lol. I am an Atheist. I was quoting someone else and was addressing Brenda in the bottom of my post. You're not giving me any turbulence and I'm creeped out that you mistakenly grouped me with anonymous and any other ignorant christian person. Ugh.. anyways I just happend to come across your post because I did a vanity search and saw the update. Heh.
astreja,
You obviously didn't read my post that well lol. I am an Atheist. I was quoting someone else and was addressing Brenda in the bottom of my post
-----
Crankyfilipino,
This is a perfect example of what happens when one tries to QUOTE multiple paragraphs from a previous poster, instead of using Italics or Bold for the same purpose.
In this particular case, I can see how someone could EASILY have mistaken the quoted paragraphs, to be your own text.
I know the first time I had read your post, I also thought Brenda's words were your own.
It was only later that I realized that wasn't the case at all.
ATF (Who was glad to find out that Brenda's words, did NOT belong to crankyfilipino after all)