Well, that helps answers my old rant of why god fails to heal these very public god-leaders.

Tell me Christians, is there even one famous xtian religious leader out there, that isn't 'on the take'?

Perhaps these leaders are trying to create their own heaven on earth, knowing they won't be residing in any other heaven after they die.
It still amazes me how their sheep keep handing over their hard earned money to these leaders, never questioning where that money is being spent.

If you ask me, they should use my method of giving money to god instead.
You toss up a plethora of dollar bills into the air, as high as you can, and whatever god catches, he gets to keep for himself. The one's that land, you may spend as you wish.

ATF (who never lost a single dollar bill to god with this tried and proven tithing method)

Seems like the last phase of the total collapse of the Robert's Empire. First, ORU Golden Boy Carlton Pearson and his revelation from God with the Gospel of Inclusion that got him banished. Then, ORU Golden Boy Ted Haggard and his fall from grace. Now this. So much of their preaching and teaching there is centered on who goes to hell and who doesn't. I wonder if they qualify to burn now...

Caleb wrote:
"Seems like the last phase of the total collapse of the Robert's Empire. First, ORU Golden Boy Carlton Pearson and his revelation from God with the Gospel of Inclusion that got him banished. Then, ORU Golden Boy Ted Haggard and his fall from grace"
---
Caleb,
Just for my own edification, I would love to have access to a LIST of all the well known religious leaders who have "fallen from grace" in the public eye.

It could be a simple list consisting of those who fell in the past few decades, or an extensive list going back hundreds of years, in either case it might be worthwhile for all of us to form one?

If a xtian were presented with such a list, shouldn't that have SOME impact on them as to the type of company they are keeping?
Sure, a particular xitan might insist that he/she didn't belong to this or that 'sect', but taken as a whole, doesn't the sheer quantity of leaders in such a list, speak loudly as to the integrity of such well known religious leaders from their almighty god?

If the list were something we could click-on on this site for reference, then it would be easy to show various xtians who roam in here, how many of their xtian leaders messed up royally etc..

So yeah, this is kind of a suggestion I'm making, that might help to bolster our ex-xtian position.


ATF (who still wonders how many of these leaders know they are not connected to any god being, other than the one in their heads)

Living in the shadow of ORU this is a very interesting topic going on in Tulsa. You will be actually surpised at the number of ORU alum and current students who have an "its about time" attitude towards this lawsuit.

The stories of those who went to school with the Roberts children and the Hinn children tells a lot on the feelings of those who know them.

texmex2003

None of this shocks anyone who knows what the pastorate is really like. Money scandals, porn scandals, affairs... it's all happening, all the time. Xtianity has proven, time and again, that all of its big claims to supernatural superiority over the "unsaved" are a bunch of bullshit smoke and mirror tricks. The ones who aren't fucking the secretary or bilking the people out of their money are constantly in the middle of gossip wars, doctrinal disputes that lead to splits and a host of other man-made, man-centered issues that have never been and will never be solved by the intervention of any ghosts, ever.

Here is the local slant on the story:
Richard Roberts: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071006_1_A1_hRich58528

and the first story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071003_1_A1_hrpah05761




texmex2003

Atheist Tooth Fairy wrote:

Tell me Christians, is there even one famous xtian religious leader out there, that isn't 'on the take'?

I have a friend who claims that whenever there is a 'money trail', there ultimately seems to be some religious entity at the end of it. It never ceases to amaze me just how much an omnipotent god needs our money for his survival!

Sophia

AtheistToothfairy wrote;
Just for my own edification, I would love to have access to a LIST of all the well known religious leaders who have "fallen from grace" in the public eye.

Yeah no doubt, even if to just know a percentage of the total that have fallen. I bet it's high, although I don't see it serving as a wake-up call for Christians. Satan moves around like a roaring lion huh?

Preachers Hall Of Shame
for the
Self-Proclaimed
When pride comes, then comes dishonor,
but with the humble is wisdom.
Proverbs 11:2

adapted from: www.ondoctrine.com/00shame.htm


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The high profile failures of religious leaders are constantly in the news and the dishonor that they bring on the name of God and the true leaders of righteousness must constantly be endured by those who strive to place the honor of God before the honor of men.

Moral failure is always preceded by the embracing of a sense of personal pride, in which an individual considers themselves to be superior to others, and/or favored by God to the extent that they are no longer accountable morally, because of the duties or works that they perform, which they believe elevate them to a superior standing.

The following are religious leaders, self-proclaimed to be so, who have exhibited that sense of pride and superiority, and who have fallen morally in relation to the teachings that they proclaimed and said that they embraced. The less humble they became, the farther the fall and the greater the dishonor.

The greatest dishonor, to have been revealed in their failure, is that which is exhibited by those adherents to their teachings, who continued to support and elevate those men and women back to the positions from which they fell. This conduct shows a complete lack of discernment and ignorance of the Biblical imperative regarding the conduct of religious leaders and shows, that for many, the elevation of human leaders is preferred to that of honoring and following the precepts of the God in which they claim to believe.

False leaders always seek to imitate that which is true, but doctrinal error and immoral or illegal conduct reveals those who are the imposters. For those who would claim that this list represents the truth of Christianity, discernment and understanding is lost, because excuses of convenience do not change the reality of the message of Jesus Christ. False leaders exist in the religious world because adherents fail to apply Biblical standards and doctrines to the teaching and conduct of their leaders, and in the process, they deceive themselves which will always lead to deception by others. Those on the list who are false will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself as He has said:
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name; and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Matthew 7:15-23
Name Position Claimed Type Of Failure
ALLEN, A.A. Evangelist, healer Alcoholic. Arrested for drunk driving. Died of alcohol related disease.
ARMSTRONG, GARNER TED.
Televangelist, radio teacher, pastor Multiple adulterer. Admitted that by 1972 he had illicit relations with 200 women. The number was much greater by the date of his death in 2003. Claimed his 'calling' to the ministry from the womb exempted him from biblical accountability.
ARMSTRONG, HERBERT W.
Apostle, prophet, pastor, televangelist, radio teacher Incestuous relationship with daughter, alcoholic, false prophet, plagiarist. Never admitted publicly to misconduct.
BAKKER, JIM Televangelist Adultery, convicted of fraud. Has repented and is back in the ministry and on television. Sodomite activity
CATHOLIC CHURCH
The "true" church
The "mother" church
Allowed hundreds of priests to serve while they sexually abused children and did not report the incidents to the police.

CROUCH, PAUL
Founder and owner of TBN, Trinity Broadcasting Network Made a settlement regarding a plagiarism suit against his movie, The Omega Code, without admitting to any wrongdoing. LA Times reported on his "Sodomite" relationship he tried to cover up with a bribe.
GORTNER, MARJOE Child evangelist,
healer Admitted to being a fake. Left the ministry for the secular entertainment industry.
GRANT, W.V. Jr. Evangelist, healer Unbiblical divorce, convicted of tax fraud.
HAGEE, JOHN Pastor, televangelist Adultery, initiated and completed an unbiblical divorce and remarriage.
HAGIN, KENNETH Evangelist, healer, prophet, apostle Revealed as a plagiarist.
JACOBS, JOHN Founder "Power Team" muscle man extravaganza and frequent host on TBN Unbiblical divorce from first wife. Unbiblical marriage to second wife and consequent unbiblical annulment from that marriage.
JENKINS, LEROY Televangelist Convicted for arson and assault, released from prison in 1984 and pardoned by the state of South Carolina in 1993. At 64 years of age, married a 77 year-old millionaire 16 days after the death of her husband. After the family protested and the court declared the woman incompetent, the marriage was annuled.
JONES, BOB Kansas City "prophet" Confessed to sexual misconduct, 1991.
KUHLMAN, KATHRYN Evangelist, healer, pastor Unbiblical divorce, adultery.
LIARDON, ROBERTS Pastor, evangelist, televangelist Confessed to a long-term homosexual relationship with his associate youth pastor. After brief absence, is now back in the ministry and the pulpit.
McCLENDON, CLARENCE Bishop, pastor, evangelist, televangelist Completed an unbiblical divorce after 16 years of marriage. He said, "I have a calling to preach, not to be married." Seven days after the divorce was final, he married Priscilla Delgado.
McPHERSON, AIMEE
Evangelist, healer, pastor Unbiblical divorce, faked her own kidnapping, fornicator.
MOSSHOLDER, RAY Marriage counsellor Un-Biblical divorce, wanted supporters to "forgive" him for his unbiblical divorce prior to obtaining the divorce.
PARHAM, CHARLES FOX Teacher Charged with sodomy.
PATTY, SANDI Singer, recording artist. Adultery, unbiblical divorce and remarriage. Has expressed repentance through her church and publicly.
PAULK, EARL Bishop, pastor, television personality. Adultery, immorality.
POPOFF, PETER Evangelist, healer Fake, used a radio device operated by his wife to be given information about the diseases of people he claimed to heal.
ROBERTS, RICHARD
President Oral Roberts University, healer, televangelist Initiated and completed an unbiblical divorce and remarriage.
SWAGGART, JIMMY Televangelist, Adulterer, caught twice. Repented publicly twice.
TILTON, ROBERT Prophet, pastor Two unbiblical divorces.


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ATF, Search, "preachers hall of shame", and it will give you several Preachers/TV Evangalists of crime. Peace, Roger

freethinker05 wrote:
"Preachers Hall Of Shame" [List]
--
Wow, I must say that is a pretty extensive list you found Roger.
I'm impressed !!

Heck, a couple of those names even caught me by surprise.
(hey, who knew)

Now if we can expand upon this even more, I think it would be difficult for xtians here to have a great leader left that they can point to and call "righteous" to us.

I will add though, it is a terrible shame that we can't trust such leaders. Leaders who are suppose to live by the very morals they preach at us, but seem instead to shake hands with their own bible 'devil'.
Tisk Tisk


ATF (who wonders who out there will add-in the bad Popes of history, that I already know about)

'Unbiblical divorce'? 'Unbiblical remarriage'?
Oh, the shame!

I wonder. Does the position draw a specific kind of people, or does the position do it to them once they attain it?

Whatever else may be said of the Biblical Jesus, he hated greed, that was pretty clear. If there is a God, and if there is a Hell, well, we godless atheists are going to have to share accomodations with God´s alleged servants...

This is not the first time this has become evident. Popes have displayed this kind of behaviour throughout the middle ages. As soon as it becomes a privileged, well-paid position with any kind of perks... forget about spirituality, it´s all about the bottom line.

Now the only question is what´s worse: To have a greedy, lying bastard in charge, or a crazy fanatic who doesn´t give a crap about money, but just wants to make sure each and every one of us makes it to Heaven, by any means necessary...

-Leonard

I can name 2 Christian leaders that weren't on the take. Billy Graham and Mother Theresa. There are a lot of wonderful ministers out there, and yes there are some unethical ones also. I bet you could say the same for atheists, or any other affiliations. We are "all" sinners and fall short of the glory of God, that is purpose of John 3:16.

True Christianity comes only from finding Jesus...

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/findjesus/

-Wes.

The point, anon-fundie-I-love-my-pastor-so-much bot, is that Christian pastors claim to be infused with the everlasting, holy power of GAWD!

They aren't filled with anything but themselves, just like everyone else. Pastors do not have magic powers, they are not inhabited by spirits from another dimension, and they certainly don't know any more about invisible, immaterial, mythological beings than any one else on the planet.

I here that there are a lot of good, smart, dedicated, holy Muslim leaders out there, too.