News of interest to former Christians


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From the LA Times, written by By William Lobdell, Times Staff Writer

When Times editors assigned me to the religion beat, I believed God had answered my prayers.

As a serious Christian, I had cringed at some of the coverage in the mainstream media. Faith frequently was treated like a circus, even a freak show.

I wanted to report objectively and respectfully about how belief shapes people's lives. Along the way, I believed, my own faith would grow deeper and sturdier.

But during the eight years I covered religion, something very different happened.

In 1989, a friend took me to Mariners Church, then in Newport Beach, after saying: "You need God. That's what's missing in your life." At the time, I was 28 and my first son was less than a year old. I had managed to nearly ruin my marriage (the second one) and didn't think I'd do much better as a father. I was profoundly lost.

The mega-church's pastor, Kenton Beshore, had a knack for making Scripture accessible and relevant. For someone who hadn't studied the Bible much, these talks fed a hunger in my soul. The secrets to living well had been there all along — in "Life's Instruction Manual," as some Christians nicknamed the Bible.

Some friends in a Bible study class encouraged me to attend a men's religious weekend in the San Bernardino Mountains. The three-day retreats are designed to grind down your defenses and leave you emotionally raw — an easier state in which to connect with God. After 36 hours of prayer, singing, Bible study, intimate sharing and little sleep, I felt filled with the Holy Spirit.

At the climactic service Sunday, Mike Barris, a pastor-to-be, delivered an old-fashioned altar call. He said we needed to let Jesus into our hearts.

With my eyes closed in prayer, I saw my heart slowly opening in two and then being infused with a warm, glowing light. A tingle spread across my chest. This, I thought, was what it was to be born again.

The pastor asked those who wanted to accept Jesus to raise their hands. My hand pretty much levitated on its own. My new friends in Christ, many of whom I had first met Friday, gave me hugs and slaps on the back.

I began praying each morning and night. During those quiet times, I mostly listened for God's voice. And I thought I sensed a plan he had for me: To write about religion for The Times and bring light into the newsroom, if only by my stories and example.

My desire to be a religion reporter grew as I read stories about faith in the mainstream media. Spiritual people often appeared as nuts or simpletons.

In one of the most famous examples, the Washington Post ran a news story in 1993 that referred to evangelical Christians as "largely poor, uneducated and easy to command."

Another maddening trend was that homosexuality and abortion debates dominated media coverage, as if those where the only topics that mattered to Christians.

I didn't just pray for a religion writing job; I lobbied hard. In one meeting with editors, my pitch went something like this:

"What if I told you that you have an institution in Orange County that draws more than 15,000 people a weekend and that you haven't written much about?"

They said they couldn't imagine such a thing.

"Saddleback Church in Lake Forest draws that type of crowd."

It took several years and numerous memos and e-mails, but editors finally agreed in 1998 to let me write "Getting Religion," a weekly column about faith in Orange County.

I felt like all the tumblers of my life had clicked. I had a strong marriage, great kids and a new column. I attributed it all to God's grace.

First as a columnist and then as a reporter, I never had a shortage of topics. I wrote about an elderly church organist who became a spiritual mentor to the man who tried to rape, rob and kill her. About the Orthodox Jewish mother who developed a line of modest clothing for Barbie dolls. About the hardy group of Mormons who rode covered wagons 800 miles from Salt Lake City to San Bernardino, replicating their ancestors' journey to Southern California.

Meanwhile, Roman Catholicism, with its low-key evangelism and deep ritual, increasingly appealed to me. I loved its long history and loving embrace of liberals and conservatives, immigrants and the established, the rich and poor.

My wife was raised in the Catholic Church and had wanted me to join for years. I signed up for yearlong conversion classes at a Newport Beach parish that would end with an Easter eve ceremony ushering newcomers into the church.

By then I had been on the religion beat for three years. I couldn't wait to get to work each day or, on Sunday, to church.

IN 2001, about six months before the Catholic clergy sex scandal broke nationwide, the dioceses of Orange and Los Angeles paid a record $5.2 million to a law student who said he had been molested, as a student at Santa Margarita High School in Rancho Santa Margarita, by his principal, Msgr. Michael Harris.

Without admitting guilt, Harris agreed to leave the priesthood. As part of the settlement, the dioceses also were forced to radically change how they handled sexual abuse allegations, including a promise to kick out any priest with a credible molestation allegation in his past. It emerged that both dioceses had many known molesters on duty. Los Angeles had two convicted pedophiles still working as priests.

While reporting the Harris story, I learned — from court records and interviews — the lengths to which the church went to protect the priest. When Harris took an abrupt leave of absence as principal at Santa Margarita in January 1994, he issued a statement saying it was because of "stress." He resigned a month later.

His superiors didn't tell parents or students the real reason for his absence: Harris had been accused of molesting a student while he was principal at Mater Dei High School in Santa Ana from 1977 to 1979; church officials possessed a note from Harris that appeared to be a confession; and they were sending him to a treatment center.

In September 1994, a second former student stepped forward, this time publicly, and filed a lawsuit. In response, parents and students held a rally for Harris at the school, singing, "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow." An airplane towed a banner overhead that read "We Love Father Harris."

By this time, church leaders possessed a psychological report in which Catholic psychiatrists diagnosed Harris as having an attraction to adolescents and concluded that he likely had molested multiple boys. (Harris, who has denied the allegations, now stands accused of molesting 12 boys, according to church records.) But they didn't step forward to set the record straight. Instead, a diocesan spokesman called Harris an "icon of the priesthood."

Harris' top defense attorney, John Barnett, lashed out at the priest's accusers in the media, calling them "sick individuals." Again, church leaders remained silent as the alleged victims were savaged. Some of the diocese's top priests — including the cleric in charge of investigating the accusations — threw a going-away party for Harris.

At the time, I never imagined Catholic leaders would engage in a widespread practice that protected alleged child molesters and belittled the victims. I latched onto the explanation that was least damaging to my belief in the Catholic Church — that this was an isolated case of a morally corrupt administration.

And I was comforted by the advice of a Catholic friend: "Keep your eyes on the person nailed to the cross, not the priests behind the altar."

IN late 2001, I traveled to Salt Lake City to attend a conference of former Mormons. These people lived mostly in the Mormon Jell-O belt — Utah, Idaho, Arizona — so-named because of the plates of Jell-O that inevitably appear at Mormon gatherings.

They found themselves ostracized in their neighborhoods, schools and careers. Often, they were dead to their own families.

"If Mormons associate with you, they think they will somehow become contaminated and lose their faith too," Suzy Colver told me. "It's almost as if people who leave the church don't exist."

The people at the conference were an eclectic bunch: novelists and stay-at-home moms, entrepreneurs and cartoonists, sex addicts and alcoholics. Some were depressed, others angry, and a few had successfully moved on. But they shared a common thread: They wanted to be honest about their lack of faith and still be loved.

In most pockets of Mormon culture, that wasn't going to happen.

Part of what drew me to Christianity were the radical teachings of Jesus — to love your enemy, to protect the vulnerable and to lovingly bring lost sheep back into the fold.

As I reported the story, I wondered how faithful Mormons — many of whom rigorously follow other biblical commands such as giving 10% of their income to the church — could miss so badly on one of Jesus' primary lessons?

As part of the Christian family, I felt shame for my religion. But I still compartmentalized it as an aberration — the result of sinful behavior that infects even the church.

IN early 2002, I was assigned to work on the Catholic sex scandal story as it erupted across the nation. I also continued to attend Sunday Mass and conversion classes on Sunday mornings and Tuesday nights.

Father Vincent Gilmore — the young, intellectually sharp priest teaching the class — spoke about the sex scandal and warned us Catholics-to-be not to be poisoned by a relatively few bad clerics. Otherwise, we'd be committing "spiritual suicide."

As I began my reporting, I kept that in mind. I also thought that the victims — people usually in their 30s, 40s and up — should have just gotten over what had happened to them decades before. To me, many of them were needlessly stuck in the past.

But then I began going over the documents. And interviewing the victims, scores of them. I discovered that the term "sexual abuse" is a euphemism. Most of these children were raped and sodomized by someone they and their family believed was Christ's representative on Earth. That's not something an 8-year-old's mind can process; it forever warps a person's sexuality and spirituality.

Many of these victims were molested by priests with a history of abusing children. But the bishops routinely sent these clerics to another parish, and bullied or conned the victims and their families into silence. The police were almost never called. In at least a few instances, bishops encouraged molesting priests to flee the country to escape prosecution.

I couldn't get the victims' stories or the bishops' lies — many of them right there on their own stationery — out of my head. I had been in journalism more than two decades and had dealt with murders, rapes, other violent crimes and tragedies. But this was different — the children were so innocent, their parents so faithful, the priests so sick and bishops so corrupt.

The lifeline Father Vincent had tried to give me began to slip from my hands.

I sought solace in another belief: that a church's heart is in the pews, not the pulpits. Certainly the people who were reading my stories would recoil and, in the end, recapture God's house. Instead, I saw parishioners reflexively support priests who had molested children by writing glowing letters to bishops and judges, offering them jobs or even raising their bail while cursing the victims, often to their faces.

On a Sunday morning at a parish in Rancho Santa Margarita, I watched congregants lobby to name their new parish hall after their longtime pastor, who had admitted to molesting a boy and who had been barred that day from the ministry. I felt sick to my stomach that the people of God wanted to honor an admitted child molester. Only one person in the crowd, an Orange County sheriff's deputy, spoke out for the victim.

On Good Friday 2002, I decided I couldn't belong to the Catholic Church. Though I had spent a year preparing for it, I didn't go through with the rite of conversion.

I understood that I was witnessing the failure of humans, not God. But in a way, that was the point. I didn't see these institutions drenched in God's spirit. Shouldn't religious organizations, if they were God-inspired and -driven, reflect higher standards than government, corporations and other groups in society?

I found an excuse to skip services that Easter. For the next few months, I attended church only sporadically. Then I stopped going altogether.

SOME of the nation's most powerful pastors — including Billy Graham, Robert H. Schuller and Greg Laurie — appear on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, benefiting from TBN's worldwide reach while looking past the network's reliance on the "prosperity gospel" to fuel its growth.

TBN's creed is that if viewers send money to the network, God will repay them with great riches and good health. Even people deeply in debt are encouraged to put donations on credit cards.

"If you have been healed or saved or blessed through TBN and have not contributed … you are robbing God and will lose your reward in heaven," Paul Crouch, co-founder of the Orange County-based network, once told viewers. Meanwhile, Crouch and his wife, Jan, live like tycoons.

I began looking into TBN after receiving some e-mails from former devotees of the network. Those people had given money to the network in hopes of getting a financial windfall from God. That didn't work.

By then, I started to believe that God was calling me, as he did St. Francis of Assisi, to "rebuild his church" — not in some grand way that would lead to sainthood but by simply reporting on corruption within the church body.

I spent several years investigating TBN and pored through stacks of documents — some made available by appalled employees — showing the Crouches eating $180-per-person meals; flying in a $21-million corporate jet; having access to 30 TBN-owned homes across the country, among them a pair of Newport Beach mansions and a ranch in Texas. All paid for with tax-free donor money.

One of the stars of TBN and a major fundraiser is the self-proclaimed faith healer Benny Hinn. I attended one of his two-day "Miracle Crusades" at what was then the Pond of Anaheim. The arena was packed with sick people looking for a cure.

My heart broke for the hundreds of people around me in wheelchairs or in the final stages of terminal diseases, believing that if God deemed their faith strong enough, they would be healed that night.

Hinn tells his audiences that a generous cash gift to his ministry will be seen by God as a sign of true faith. This has worked well for the televangelist, who lives in an oceanfront mansion in Dana Point, drives luxury cars, flies in private jets and stays in the best hotels.

At the crusade, I met Jordie Gibson, 21, who had flown from Calgary, Canada, to Anaheim because he believed that God, through Hinn, could get his kidneys to work again.

He was thrilled to tell me that he had stopped getting dialysis because Hinn had said people are cured only when they "step out in faith." The decision enraged his doctors, but made perfect sense to Gibson. Despite risking his life as a show of faith, he wasn't cured in Anaheim. He returned to Canada and went back on dialysis. The crowd was filled with desperate believers like Gibson.

I tried unsuccessfully to get several prominent mainstream pastors who appeared on TBN to comment on the prosperity gospel, Hinn's "faith healing" or the Crouches' lifestyle.

Like the Catholic bishops, I assumed, they didn't want to risk what they had.

AS the stories piled up, I began to pray with renewed vigor, but it felt like I wasn't connecting to God. I started to feel silly even trying.

I read accounts of St. John of the Cross and his "dark night of the soul," a time he believed God was testing him by seemingly withdrawing from his life. Maybe this was my test.

I met with my former Presbyterian pastor, John Huffman, and told him what I was feeling. I asked him if I could e-mail him some tough questions about Christianity and faith and get his answers. He agreed without hesitation.

The questions that I thought I had come to peace with started to bubble up again. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why does God get credit for answered prayers but no blame for unanswered ones? Why do we believe in the miraculous healing power of God when he's never been able to regenerate a limb or heal a severed spinal chord?

In one e-mail, I asked John, who had lost a daughter to cancer, why an atheist businessman prospers and the child of devout Christian parents dies. Why would a loving God make this impossible for us to understand?

He sent back a long reply that concluded:

"My ultimate affirmation is let God be God and acknowledge that He is in charge. He knows what I don't know. And frankly, if I'm totally honest with you, a life of gratitude is one that bows before the Sovereign God arguing with Him on those things that trouble me, lamenting the losses of life, but ultimately saying, 'You, God, are infinite; I'm human and finite.' "

John is an excellent pastor, but he couldn't reach me. For some time, I had tried to push away doubts and reconcile an all-powerful and infinitely loving God with what I saw, but I was losing ground. I wondered if my born-again experience at the mountain retreat was more about fatigue, spiritual longing and emotional vulnerability than being touched by Jesus.

And I considered another possibility: Maybe God didn't exist.

TOWARD the end of my tenure as a religion reporter, I traveled to Nome, Alaska. Sitting in a tiny visitor's room, I studied the sad, round face of the Eskimo in front of me and tried to imagine how much he hated being confined to jail.

Peter "Packy" Kobuk was from a remote village on St. Michael Island in western Alaska. There natives lived, in many ways, just as their ancestors did 10,000 years ago. Smells of the outdoor life hung heavy in his village: the salt air, the strips of salmon drying on racks, the seaweed washed up on the beach.

But for now, Packy could smell only the disinfectants used to scrub the concrete floors at the Anvil Mountain Correction Center. Unfortunately, alcohol and a violent temper had put Packy there many times in his 46 years. For his latest assault, he was serving three months.

The short, powerfully built man folded his calloused hands on the table. I was surprised to see a homemade rosary hanging from his neck, the blue beads held together by string from a fishing net.

I had come from Southern California to report on a generation of Eskimo boys who had been molested by a Catholic missionary. All of the now-grown Eskimos I had interviewed over the past week had lost their faith. In fact, several of them confessed that they fantasized daily about burning down the village church, where the unspeakable acts took place.

But there was Packy with his rosary.

"Why do you still believe?" I asked.

"It's not God's work what happened to me," he said softly, running his fingers along the beads. "They were breaking God's commandments — even the people who didn't help. They weren't loving their neighbors as themselves."

He said he regularly got down on his knees in his jail cell to pray.

"A lot of people make fun of me, asking if the Virgin Mary is going to rescue me," Packy said. "Well, I've gotten helped more times from the Virgin Mary through intercession than from anyone else. I won't stop. My children need my prayers."

Tears spilled from his eyes. Packy's faith, though severely tested, had survived.

I looked at him with envy. Where he found comfort, I was finding emptiness.

IN the summer of 2005, I reported from a Multnomah County, Ore., courtroom on the story of an unemployed mother — impregnated by a seminary student 13 years earlier — who was trying to get increased child support for her sickly 12-year-old son.

The boy's father, Father Arturo Uribe, took the witness stand. The priest had never seen or talked with his son. He even had trouble properly pronouncing the kid's name. Uribe confidently offered the court a simple reason as to why he couldn't pay more than $323 a month in child support.

"The only thing I own are my clothes," he told the judge.

His defense — orchestrated by a razor-sharp attorney paid for by his religious order — boiled down to this: I'm a Roman Catholic priest, I've taken a vow of poverty, and child-support laws can't touch me.

The boy's mother, Stephanie Collopy, couldn't afford a lawyer. She stumbled badly acting as her own attorney. It went on for three hours.

"It didn't look that great," Stephanie said afterward, wiping tears from her eyes. "It didn't sound that great … but at least I stood up for myself."

The judge ruled in the favor of Uribe, then pastor of a large parish in Whittier. After the hearing, when the priest's attorney discovered I had been there, she ran back into the courtroom and unsuccessfully tried to get the judge to seal the case. I could see why the priest's lawyer would try to cover it up. People would be shocked at how callously the church dealt with a priest's illegitimate son who needed money for food and medicine.

My problem was that none of that surprised me anymore.

As I walked into the long twilight of a Portland summer evening, I felt used up and numb.

My soul, for lack of a better term, had lost faith long ago — probably around the time I stopped going to church. My brain, which had been in denial, had finally caught up.

Clearly, I saw now that belief in God, no matter how grounded, requires at some point a leap of faith. Either you have the gift of faith or you don't. It's not a choice. It can't be willed into existence. And there's no faking it if you're honest about the state of your soul.

Sitting in a park across the street from the courthouse, I called my wife on a cellphone. I told her I was putting in for a new beat at the paper.
 
Blogger bourneagainshell said...
Thanks for that great article. I've been going to my wife's church occasionally and it makes me laugh inside to hear the crap that comes out of their mouths. I merely ignore them because I'm only there for my wife who is still stuck in the Flock by her own will. I could try to help her, but, she's so stubborn that she won't listen past the first two sentences I speak. I can only know and understand why I am no longer a Christian. If she really wants to know she can ask me. I was raised Catholic too and never really believed in the Myths and Fantasies. I tried to make it seem real to see what others see, but could never really convince myself that it was. I've always doubted it in the back of my mind, even as a child.

Sorry, I got sidetracked. I do that when I get into what I'm saying. Your ex-testimony touches home. I've also tried asking the difficult questions to those of Faith. I never got any Truth out of their so-called answers. It never really clicked. It just surprises me that there is hardly any Christians out there who will question what they've been taught/brainwashed to think. But, I digress. I only wish I could be talented enough to be a reporter. I just don't have the confidence to speak to so many people at once. If I were a reporter, I'd definitely want to be the religion reporter.

Great work! :)


Blogger Noell said...
Great article! Thanks for sharing!
I’ve never understood how so many educated persons, who have the cognitive ability to comprehend the reality of religion, choose ignorance. It comes as no surprise that they eventually find the construct of gawd miserably incompetent. No person can ever obtain adequate faith that could place them in gawds grace. All anyone will ever receive from gawd is an excuse.

Christianity is nothing more than a hiding place for insecure people who would rather shirk the responsibility of every aspect of their own lives. Believing in a nonexistent gawd to explain what they can’t, they place it into the hands of manipulative con-men with hidden agendas, mainly financial, or as we see daily, sexual predation for deviant desires.

As for William, now that you have discovered that gawd is a con job invented by men, do your research and delve into the origin of christianity. You will hate yourself when that slap on the forehead moment arrives and you say, “What was I thinking?”.

The best gawd going is the one you will find staring back at you in the mirror, after all, in the end that’s what it will come down to anyway!


Blogger Huey said...
Wonderful, yet heart breaking to read and I get the impression that you only reported to us the "tip of the iceberg". I laud your loss of faith but not the manner of it. I guess not all of us can use (what is now obviously a luxury) reason alone for seeing the light, as it were, and I envy your strength for being able to see the results of such abominable acts and still move forward. I don't pretend that I could do that.

Your testimony would seem to highlight an issue that I have with religion and that is the clergy are untouchable by the legal system. But this goes beyond the perpetrators. If I sheltered, transferred, or otherwise put a criminal beyond the reach of the law, then I am guilty of Aiding And Abetting. If I hid a child rapist, moved that individual outside of local jurisdiction, then I would be put in jail! Yet bishops do this, seemingly on a daily basis and no one questions this. Never has there even been so much as a statement of intent, of investigating the abettor, of obstructing justice, made by the authorities.

William, I would ask that, as a journalist who obviously has a tremendous amount of research material stacked up, are you planning on writing an exposé for publication? You touched on so many points, using examples concerning not one as is so often the case, but different christian sects, that you leave me thirsting for more!


Blogger Nvrgoingbk said...
Absolutely astounding article and one that was much needed.

As an aspiring writer and once aspiring phot-journalist for my home-town paper, I can relate to this author's desire to be the eyes and ears of the Christian church, reporting on all of the positive aspects of the faith.

My publisher and I had plans on starting our own Christian publication wehre I would be employed as the paper's editor, but the plans never came to fruition. Thank "God" for that!

Funny how our plans change. I wish now to contribute to as many Atheist sites as possible and to be a voice of reason in a world dominated by religion. There just aren't enough of us our there.


Anonymous psilopher said...
Have you considered Judaism? Why not go with the first, and the best?

In Christianity there is only one law. It is exceeding simple, and impossible to follow.

In Judaism there are 413 laws. To follow them all (well, almost all of them--nobody has access to the hair of Aaron's red cattle, necessary for a cleansing ritual, so it's impossible to follow that law)is difficult, but not impossible, and if you succeed, you are by definition a virtuous person.

If the intricacies of doctrine appeal to you, Judaism has Christianity beaten twelve ways to Sunday. Keep in mind that the Talmud is a commentary on an earlier commentary on a still earlier commentary on the Bible; beside it Christian exegesis is child's play. One of my favorite comments from the Talmud, on the subject of the sin which cannot stop yourself from committing: "If you must sin then wear black clothes and think black thoughts, and indulge your heart's desire."

I think it's unfortunate that you've completely lost your faith, because the worship of God is a noble undertaking. I think there is a God, not the Osiris myth stitched onto Jewish ethical teaching which is Christianity, perhaps not even the grumpy old man of Judaism, but a creative presence behind the universe to which we owe our existence and to which we should be grateful.


Blogger terrence said...
The bleak, cold hearted landscape of modern society literally demands the people believe in something. Belief is not faith which is the outcome of events that invoke faith.

God exists as you exist yet to develop a relationship with God demands so much soul searching as distinct from simply believing the scriptures.

What I'm talking about here is a journey of self recognition that, little by little, strengthens one's connection with the Lord by tearing one away from belief & into the realm of faith.

This appears to be happening to you ... you cannot believe blindly but you are still intrinsically attached to goodness. Keep acting as your heart and inner morality dictates. Abandon "religion" and become a REAL follower, then you have moved one step closer.

Born a catholic, I rejected it, tried buddhism, sufism, even alcoholism, and like you had to question the stupidity of the intelligentsia.

Nowadays I'm a hare krishna although many believers would dispute that, and find the path that leads me deeper and deeper into my own heart has led me deeper and deeper into my relationship with God. Krsna Himself says in the Bhagavad Gita to abandon all varieties of religion.
Yes keep on following your heart and show the Christians how to be a Christian.
Love
t3rry


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Such a lovely talent for writing, but in my humble opinion, were you went wrong was writing about religion, not Jesus. Religions are run by people, if I recall, Jesus wasn't too fond of the church folk either...
But we are all given a measure of faith...we can choose to nurture it or laugh at those who do.
One does not need a church to have a relationship with God...I doubt 5 of the 10 people in the pew in front of you are there to make social or business contacts, or 'brownie points' with God.
I so wish you hadn't thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
Isabella


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
Isabelle want a cracker?

BRRAAAACK.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
I was always reminded that I could never have faith, not being good enough. I still seek the faith, because of Jesus more then anything. What I always found interesting about the "gospel" was how very very very few would ever really believe and that there was no possibility what so ever that I was one of them. I still seek faith through service and love of others. I cant see myself as a non believer but I do understand their points and how they have often been treated. I wish you and your family the very best.


Anonymous KRBR said...
I completely agree with the article until the very end. You can conjure up faith. You may not feel the trust, but you make a decision to take a step.

Anyways...

Personally, I hate the word religion. I label myself as a Christian, but I don't choose a denomination. Why? b/c I don't personally see the point in it. Why follow rules made up by men with no point to them? I choose to follow God's rules.
I do attend a regular church, but I didn't pick it by denomination. The problem with Christians, is that they forget that they're no different from any other person in the world except for the fact that they're supposed to have admitted that they're full of sin. Although many don't even truly do that. I'm not a Christian b/c I am perfect or that I think highly of myself. I'm a Christian b/c I realize that I am not perfect and in fact unable to do the right thing on my own. I think it's terribly sad when people forget this. God absolutely will forgive, but you need to have a change of heart, first.

And as far as people saying to try different religions. The problem is that how can there be conflicting truths? The question is not trying stuff out. The question is finding the right thing and using God's strength to stick with it.


Anonymous Chloe said...
Have you thought about deism - that the universe was set up like a clock and God passively watches? Also consider reading "The Power of Now" by Eckert Tolle.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
While I have been a Christian for the better part of my life, I am continually amazed at the utter hatred people have for Jesus Christ--the One Who suffered and died for them, and the One Who loves them the most. Bud


Anonymous Anonymous said...
" While I have been a Christian for the better part of my life, I am continually amazed at the utter hatred people have for Jesus Christ--the One Who suffered and died for them, and the One Who loves them the most. Bud"

Umm - please explain the hatred you see here that is directed at this Jesus Christ character..

Oh, and please explain also how it is even possible for someone to hate something that they are not even sure exists in the first place. I don't know about you, but I have a hell of a time hating things who's existence is questionable. Yeesh. Your post reeks of ignorance. ..Was that a hateful thing to say? -Wes.


Blogger Super Happy Jen said...
Great article. From the heart.


Anonymous Iago said...
"Have you considered Judaism? Why not go with the first, and the best?"

Yeah, sure, and risk being killed by Nazis, Skinheads, Muslims, Christians, the French, Russians, Kazakhs etc., not to mention that in optimal circumstances like those during Moses' life with YHWH walking amidst the Jewish camp, working miracles left and right, and killing firstborns, you'd be killed for moving a chair on Sabbath.

I think the cult of Aten predates Judaism as one of the first monotheistic religions, doesn't it? Polytheism predates them both, and I don't remember whether polytheists killed each other over religious predominance or not.

"In Judaism there are 413 laws. To follow them all is difficult, but not impossible"

Like the one commanding to kill the children who curse their parents? (Exod.21:15, Exod. 21:17, Deut.21:18-21) Jesus himself scolded the Jewish for not following this commandment (Mark 7:9-13)

I'm no one to give counseling to you, gringuitos, you're more than free to convert to whichever religion/cult/sect takes your fancy, but if I were you in that I need to kiss reason goodbye and be fooled, I'd choose a religion that doesn't require my pecker to be mutilated.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
Isabella: ... in my humble opinion, were you went wrong was writing about religion, not Jesus. Religions are run by people, if I recall, Jesus wasn't too fond of the church folk either...

If you you "recall"? Recall from where, exactly? In other words, how have you come to conclude that "Jesus wasn't too fond of church folk"? Wasn't through the religion of Christianity that you've aquired this knowledge about "Jesus"? Or did "Jesus" tell you first-hand?

Isabella: I so wish you hadn't thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

What baby?


Blogger Nvrgoingbk said...
Anonymous Bud said: " While I have been a Christian for the better part of my life, I am continually amazed at the utter hatred people have for Jesus Christ--the One Who suffered and died for them, and the One Who loves them the most."

It's not Jesus we hate, it's religion. We are equal opportunists. We hate ALL religion. Considering the fact that we don't believe in your God in the first place, I find it a ridiculous assumption that we "hate" Jesus. We don't give Jesus much thought at all. You are nearly as close to Atheism as we are with the exception of belief in one more God. Why do you hate Allah? Why do you hate Krishna? Why do you hate Buddha? Why do you hate Mithra, Zeus, Osiris, Zoroaster, and Vishnu?


Anonymous Kiley said...
I, for one, have no clue haw it must feel to be able to look into the eyes of someone who has been treated so badly by someone who was in such a position of power and listen to them tell you that they, themselves, are in the wrong. It woluld certainly do many things to one's faith. I used to adhere to the crede, "love the religion, hate the followers". but even that is hard to keep in mind when i think about these attrocities that occur every day in the name of god.
Without stooping to the level of some other religion bashers, you have told a story that was wonderfully written about human loss. Religion is an easy concept to loose, but very difficult to understand why it was lost in the first place. From someone who is faithfully on the religious "fence" every day, i identify with your feelings. Thank you!
Kiley


Blogger smellincoffee said...
That was a wonderfully-written post. I wonder how the author's changing perception of faith was reflected in his articles?


Blogger Gus said...
Either you have the gift of faith or you don't. It's not a choice. It can't be willed into existence.

Exactly! I tried very hard to believe once.. couldnt do it, couldnt fake it.


Blogger Ryan Scott said...
great article! I think you should focus on writing expose pieces against religion. There is no shortage of good material, and the world needs to know about it.

Are there publications that will pay for such articles?


Blogger Ryan Scott said...
whoever said this:
"The bleak, cold hearted landscape of modern society literally demands the people believe in something."

is an idiot.

"literally demands"? What is up with the misuse of the world 'literally'? Why can't xians make any sense?

"Belief is not faith which is the outcome of events that invoke faith."

Try to make some sense! Try to make sentences that can be parsed and understood!


Anonymous John said...
Psilopher, Judaism is what got us into this whole mess in the first place. Most atheists can't get past Genesis and Leviticus long enough to even consider a religion that teaches its people that God only loved one ethnic group in the world for 2,000 years, and hated all of their enemies.

Do you still belive that you're God's chosen people? Isn't that arrogant on your part? And do you think that women should have to enter the synogogue through a different door than men, and should not be permitted to pray beside men at the Wailing Wall? Is a woman who is menstruating ritually impure for 14 days? Come on, Judaism is so much more repressive than Christianity.

As for the Talmud, it's the most racist book that I've ever read.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Why did you take your eyes off of the cross? Religion WILL leave you empty, it is Christ that completes. That feeling you had in the past when you "met" Christ at the mens conference was the Holy Spirit, not fatigue. Also, if you will read Revelation, you'll understand that the prophesies from the Old Testament are being fulfilled, and that alone should get you re-focused on Christ. We ARE in the last days and Satan is after your soul. Christ is the only defense. Go read it and search it. Test it, just like it says to do in the Book of Timothy. Christians are not the ones being brainwashed. I've questioned what is taught, and everything that I have found, from the Old Testament to today's headlines confirms it. It is seared on my heart, and God's word can be trusted.

You have to realize that people, including priests, are human and can/will commit sin. They did wrong, and in my opinion, the Church did wrong in trying to cover it up. The victims are innocent and the what they had to endure is sick. But, a priest/pastor/human is not the one to follow. Christ is the One.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
As a pastor, I, too, have been sickened by the utter inhumanity with which the hierarchy of many churches (not just the RCC) have treated victims of abuse and the way perpetrators have been protected over the years. I have had my questions about how God can allow such things to happen - how, in fact, good things can happen to bad people and bad things to good people. But I come back to the wisdom imparted to me by my great-grandmother:
1) God created human beings to have free will and allows us to use it without interference because...
2) ...True praise and worship comes from choosing to do so, rather than from requirements, AND...
3)...As we come to understand God's true nature (well-hidden, she used to say, under all the hatred and warfare attributed to God so that the conquering Israelites could excuse their behavior as reported in the Bible), we are better able to act in the loving, humane way necessary to bring peace to the world and to end violence and warfare.
4) God uses human knowledge to bring cures as we gain understanding of the world (medical science); miracle healings are the combination of will power and as yet undiscovered properties of the human body. I would add from experience with a number of parishioners that healing happens most often when grief, guilt, and anger have been processed and accepted as part of human experience.
MaMa wasn't a Universalist per se, but she certainly saw the essential elements of godliness in the major religions of the world - buried, as in the Bible, under stories of human foibles. For her and for me, the saddest part about living a human life is how short we all fall of #3, particularly within organized religions, which would all be better off without human involvement.
I hope that at some point you can return to a faith of some kind. But if you cannot, I trust that you will continue to live a moral and ethical life that will, indeed, be a witness to believers of all varieties that goodness is the best human quality we have.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
1) God created human beings to have free will and allows us to use it without interference because...
2) ...True praise and worship comes from choosing to do so, rather than from requirements,

Right, so a parent who 1) allows a child free will and allows it to use it without interference, setting fire to cats, beating up younger children, playing with matches in bed, shitting on the lounge carpet, deserves
2) true praise and worship.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful article. I believe the difficulty in following Y'shua is that we forego proprietary pursuits, even the pursuit of justice (in the parables of the persistant widow we learn that God loves justice more than us, but by faith we see that God's plan is to deliver both the victim and the victimizer - at one point, the victimizer was a victim also). Faith at its highest level, desires the rescue of both the victim and the victimizer - our territorial nature creates these roles, but divine nature abolishes them. A difficult perspective to embrace and express - one that can trigger animosity when what we truly desire is revenge and punishment.


Anonymous Rick said...
I thought no more 'anonymous' writers were going to be allowed? If their IP can be tracked then maybe when someone enters under 'anonymous' it would automatically assign some random nonsensical name to that IP so that we can at least tell the difference between them.

Of course it would be funny to have a database of self insulting names to encourage people to at least enter a name under other.

Just a thought.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
How's this for a nonsensical self insulting name to post with - "Rick"?

Rick


Anonymous Rick said...
It shows you have a lack of imagination and you're still too stupid to sign in without using "anonymous"


Blogger Bill said...
Man, as a former Christian, it never ceases to amaze me how Christians use the same tired stuff to answer why someone left the flock of Jesus. I mean, aren't we all tired of the "look to Jesus not man or religion". Don't Christians realize that we've all been there. I spent years in Bible College and Seminary. I served as a pastor and counselor for an Evangelical Church. I really don't want to hear the same old junk over and over. Is there some way to just put out a disclaimer for all Christians that checks out this site?


Anonymous psilopher said...
Thought I'd stop by and see what kind of hackles my post raised. All kinds, I see.

Hey, John, you haven't read the Talmud. I've been looking for an on-line Talmud for quite a while now. There aren't any. So unless you've shelled out $800 for an English translation (in about 16 volumes), you haven't read it. What you probably HAVE read, based on your description of it as evil, is probably one of the many "excerpts" from the Talmud to be found on white supremacist web sites. Needless to say, these are mostly made up, and/or taken out of context. For instance, one Talmudic quote which is found quite often on these sites is the one about whether it's ethical to cheat a Gentile--what is conveniently left out is the full question, which asks if it's proper to cheat a gentile after you yourself have been cheated by him. Slightly different meaning, hmmm? The fact that you've visited stormfront.com to read these Talmudic "excerpts" raises serious doubts in my mind as to the validity of your opinions

Let me make my point a little clearer. All religions have three religio-social roles to perform. These are, in order of importance, 1) to praise, thank and worship God, 2) to encourage and if necessary enforce ethical behavior, and 3) to provide its adherents with hope and solace. All religions do an excellent job of the first task. Christianity happens to excel at the third one. Where it falls seriously down is in task No. 2. By relieving its adherents of responsibility for their actions (because all men are sinners and can only achieve virtue through the acceptance of Jesus), Christianity seriously underperforms what is, from a purely social viewpoint, its most serious function. Judaism performs this function admirably (as do most religions, including Islam, despite its propensity to Not Play Well With Others). Christianity requires you to Love Your Neighbor. Judaism merely requires you to abstain from beaning him with a 2x4.

So my point is, if you want to believe in God but cannot bring yourself to worship Jesus, and if you want to subscribe to a monotheistic religion but are unwilling to embrace Islam, and if you are willing to undertake the monumental task of becoming Jewish (we don't make it easy--for instance, converting in order to marry a Jew is not considered an adequate reason for conversion--you have to sincerely want to become Jewish), then you are welcome to join the world's oldest ethical philosophy, rich with history, tradition and wisdom.


Blogger stronger now said...
This post has been removed by the author.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
You have to realize that people, including priests, are human and can/will commit sin. They did wrong, and in my opinion, the Church did wrong in trying to cover it up. The victims are innocent and the what they had to endure is sick. But, a priest/pastor/human is not the one to follow. Christ is the One.

in light of all this,why in hell would you want to put your children at risk by sending them to church?

uncaduff


Anonymous New Yorker said...
Psilopher: Your insights on the role of religion and Judaism are thoughtful, and thanks for setting us straight on the Talmud. But how would you answer the questions put to you about all those genocidal instructions in the Hebrew (and Christian) Bible? I ask as a person of faith who struggles with them.


Anonymous Rick said...
psilopher

You had said that there was no online Talmud and out of curiosity I did a simple Google search with the words "online Talmud". Two of the first three links do seem to be online English translations.

The first link is at this site and another source appears at this site. Hopefully those links work out right else I'll be reposting :)

Anyway, was wondering if those translations are accurate to what you have been searching for online.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
A special charism has been given which allowed Jesus to speak to someone on this earth. The following message, titled "Do Not Judge" applies to all of us, as do all the other messages.

I believe you have succumbed to Pride and by this sin, allowed the Tempter to take a strong foothold on your life. Strong enough to pull you away from the truth...


"DO NOT JUDGE"

June 27, 1990

peace be with you;

daughter, pray, giving Me glory for having lifted you from the world of the dead and having allowed you to enter and live in My World of Peace and Love and having taught you through My gentle mastery the Knowledge of the ancients so do not condemn anyone who still cannot tell their right hand from their left; be compassionate as I am compassionate; do not judge and you will not be judged yourself do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourself; resist evil and conquer it with good do not give the Tempter a foothold; do not say that I your Lord have abandoned you; out of My Five Wounds I nourish you soul! pray for discernment look My daughter, I am Hope, I am Life and I am near you! I am the Crucified and your Redeemer who tells you: My love for you is eternal


Anonymous Rick said...
"Do Not Judge"

because there is nothing that proves god more than a person writing out an emotional essay and attributing their words as if god wrote it.

Then again, isn't it a bit circular to make the judgment that someone is being judgmental and then making the claim that it is wrong to judge?


Anonymous Bob said...
Rick said- "Then again, isn't it a bit circular to make the judgment that someone is being judgmental and then making the claim that it is wrong to judge?"

That's a copout question once you realize that you have moral absolutes imprinted on your heart. We have a right and the duty to judge certain behavior as sinful but we do not have the right to condemn. Just because I see that someone is doing something morally wrong, does not give me the permission to condemn them, only God can do this, as only He can judge with perfect objectivity. Understand that I am in no way condoning the behavior of all those that have fallen into grave sin. I only aim to help us remember to seek humility in the face of all evil in this world. Ultimately, in the face of all these grave sins, we should endeavor to utter the words "But for the grace of God, their go I...". In other words, if you think you're so much better than someone else, realize that all that you have in the way of "righteousness" is by God's grace. If we have all done so well in turning away from grave sin, we should kneel before God, thank Him and ask Him for mercy for this world that we've corrupted.

If the Church priests and other head's of Church have so many of them lost in sin, don't you think that the Church's state is nothing but a reflection of the world it's in! We need to pray for our priests, they are under grave attack and our scoffing at the grave sins being uncovered will do nothing to appease God's judgment on them and us! Pray, pray, pray...time truly is running out!


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
I had to read your comment twice to be sure I read it correctly, Bob.

Are you saying we shouldn't have any prisons, but should only pray for criminals?

Huh?

"But for the grace of God, there go I..."?

Are you kidding? What Bible verse is that, that you feel justified in writing it so authoritatively? Do trite, cliche´ sayings carry the imprimatur "Inspired by God?"

Of course they don't. All you are stating is your own personal opinion here, and I can't help but wonder why you are so animate on not "judging" men (and women?) of the soiled cloth.

Whatever your reason or motivation for your passion -- your over protectiveness, or hero worship, or whatever it is -- it seems to me to indicate that you have zero compassion for the victims of these charlatans. You'd rather see miscreants (so long as they happen to wear a collar) praised and applauded at all costs, while those duped by their antics remain silent.

Why the big defense of phony preachers? Do you also defend corrupt doctors, lawyers, and garbage truck drivers?

"You have no right to condemn."

Bullshit! Society has every right to condemn bad behavior. And guess what, Bob, I am a member of society.

For someone who believes (Put a big emphasis on the word "believes" here.) that moral absolutes are imprinted on our minds (Our hearts pump blood, Bob, that's all those things do.), you sure have a an absolutely screwy way of viewing right from wrong. You don't think absolving predators from criticism wrong?

Perhaps your "imprinting" isn't quite as supernaturally perfect as you imagine. Or perhaps you're just brainwashed.


Anonymous Bob said...
When I wrote that "we do not have the right to condemn", I was referring to the act of passing judgement on their salvific state. Their debt to society must always be paid..."Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.".

There is so much suffering caused by sin, we serve no constructive purpose to choose hatred of these men! Hate their sins but don't join them by hating God because sin is rampant in the world and the Church!

In the face of the revelation of such wounding sins, we should ask God for help that we don't succumb to pride and arrogance while being immersed in our self-righteousness. If you choose such sins, you will only create a new foothold for the Tempter. Satan is much more shrewd that any of us, just when you think your out in the clear, he finds another way to pull you off the path.

Don't be deceived, he works day and night! Satan wants nothing more than to have us casually walk straight into Hell while we're too busy hating everyone else instead of focusing on our spiritual health.

There's a spiritual war going on and we're smack dab in the middle of it! Pray for humility, pray for discernment, pray for God's mercy and litteraly experience your eyes receiving His light. He'll show us what we've been doing wrong (light on my feet) and He'll show us how to get back on the path (light on my path).

But for the grace of God, I would still be lost in sin...


Blogger Astreja said...
Bob said: "There is so much suffering caused by sin..."

Sin has not been proven to exist. I, personally, think that it does not exist. I am of the opinion that mortal behaviour cannot injure omnipotent gods in any way whatsoever.

Some (but not all) suffering *is* caused by wilful bad behaviour, which does indeed exist. As an active participant in society I reserve the right to judge such behaviour, condemn it as unseemly conduct, and demand restitution whenever it happens to affect me or my family.

As for someone's "salvific state", this is a red herring. We're talking about real-world criminal behaviour here, not whether or not someone goes to a mythological Happy Place after they snuff it.

The reason we pay so much attention to criminal behaviour by clergy is that it clearly demonstrates the mythical nature of religion. If there are gods out there, they don't seem to be paying much attention. The Bible is full of stories of wrongdoers facing the wrath of Yahweh. The real world has no such thing. Those pretending to speak for a god speak alone without the slightest hint of disapproval from on high.

Religious criminality is particularly heinous because, more often than not, the wrongdoer abused a position of trust or threatened potential whistleblowers with eternal damnation.

It's even more horrifying to see the congregation of a church rally around a disgraced pastor and condemn the victims of his crimes.

"...only He can judge with perfect objectivity."

Wrong! If your god exists and has opinions, its judgement is every bit as subjective as ours.

"Satan is much more shrewd that any of us..."

If you honestly believe that, I'm deeply worried for you. You have given up your personal power to a mythical bogeyman. Satan is a figment of the religious imagination, and an all-too-convenient excuse for people who can not or will not behave in a socially acceptable manner.

Stop bleating about "The Tempter" and "spiritual wars", dump the prayers to the empty air, and start demanding accountability from (and for) your fellow travellers on this planet. It has nothing to do with "hating", nothing whatsoever.


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
Bob said, "I was referring to the act of passing judgement on their salvific state.

Bob, in case you haven't noticed, this is ExChristian.Net. The regulars here don't believe in your God and magical son anymore. We think it's all poppycock, so giving us little missives based loosely on your dusty tome is as effective as having an Islamic Iman rattle on about how Allah is displeased with us. It's silly.

Your big bad Devil sounds really, really, really powerful. In fact, he sounds omnipotent, the way you describe him. Sheesh, No wonder your Yahweh gets together with Satan to discuss things. Gotta keep someone that massively powerful close by, right? Remember Job?

"There's a spiritual war going on and we're smack dab in the middle of it!"

Oh, wait a minute. God ISN'T in control, it's a Ying-Yang sort of thing of going on, is it?

Bob, check out this article that I posted a couple of days ago: What Was I Thinking?

Here's an excerpt: This is the reality one must accept as a Christian: There is an invisible war going on between the sovereign ruler of the universe and one of His former minions. These "guys" are waging a battle over the eternal souls of the upright-walking, hairless monkeys living on tiny planet circling a particularly unimportant star on the outskirts of a small and ordinary galaxy. The prize? If the monkeys have the correct thoughts in their heads (Believe in Jesus, whatever that really means) at the time they expire, the Big Guy gets to populate his domain with them. If the bald simians don't have the correct thoughts in their heads (Don't believe in Jesus) at the moment they croak, it's everlasting barbecue time with minion boy. And if the game is all about who gets the most schmucks to move in, El Shaddai is in trouble.

What lunatic tendency in my head made this scenario appear sensible to me?


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

John 20:29

For those who say no one even knows if the bible is true, so why should I believe it?, what if your wrong, which if their is hope? Why would you risk something like that? I would rather believe in an Almighty and Sovereign God who has created everything, and ho wants to have a relationship with us. Then not to believe anything!


Blogger SEO said...
Anony,

See wikipedia: list of deities.

Seems to me that you're not exactly risk-free either.

So, how did you decide on the one god from all those available to hedge your bet on?


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
Is that what your god wants, anonymous? Groveling followers who only follow because they are filled with terror at HIS potentially horrific wrath?

If that's what your god is all about, I'll take my chances. If there is a god, HE isn't yours.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
If you would rather believe in no God, then thats your choice. I have faith that the word of God is true, and if it is, God have mercy on those who don't accept him!


I will pray for all of you!, that God would open your eyes to him!


Blogger SEO said...
Anony,

Pray away but while your there using your obviously super-incredible praying powers could you throw in a prayer about protecting those who can’t protect themselves? You know, the hundreds of thousands children being sold into prostitution and the other millions upon millions who are starving to death.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

~Romans 8:28

It is very sad what is going on today. I will definately be praying for them, and any other prayer request you might have!


Blogger boomSLANG said...
Christo-droid: If you would rather believe in no God...

'Droid,

First, we aren't all "Atheists". Secondly, for those of us who are Atheist, we don't "believe in no God"---rather, we lack belief in ALL gods, including ALL of the same gods that you disbelieve in, just one "extra".

...then thats your choice.

Right, just like it's your "choice" to believe, or disbelieve, in the Great Pumpkin. Your point is....?

I have faith that the word of God is true,

Can you be more specific? Which "word"?..which "God"?

and if it is[if the Word of Allah is true], God have mercy on those who don't accept him!

Right, Islamic hell is a bitch!!!

See ya there, Livernutz!


Blogger boomSLANG said...
The Almighty Allah says, "When thou dost read the Qur-an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the Rejected one."

~ Surah Al-Nahl, verse: 98

It is very sad what is going on today. I will definately be praying for Christians, and any other prayer request that will lead people back to Allah!


Blogger SEO said...
Anony,

Why have you been touched more by His noodles than anyone of us here? Why is the FSM going listen to your prayers?

I’ve checked Yahoo and so far there hasn’t been a breaking news story on the hungry miraculously being fed. That’s odd. You have a straight prayer line to his noodliness yet there are still starving people around.

Are you sure you’ve prayed hard enough? Are you on your knees? Are they raw? Bleeding?

I checked again and people are still starving.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Harder. That’s it - you need to pray harder. And pray more. A lot more. All the time, even.

Maybe you need to take a look at your sincerity? Are you sure you are sincere? Maybe tears will work. Weep gut wrenching crocodile tears.

Also try begging, you need to beg.

Ooh, maybe throw in a hunger strike of your own.

I think this should become all consuming for you. Don’t stop. Don’t take no for an answer. And Don't come back here until the hunger is gone.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Dies it make you happy to mock someone? If so go right ahead. You can try to bring me down all you want, nothing you can say will ever make me turn!

"I am Fireproof"

~Pillar


...If God is for us, who can be against us?

~Romans 8:31


Blogger boomSLANG said...
[Does] it make you happy to mock someone? If so go right ahead.

Does it make you happy to come on an EX-christian website and publish post after post after post after post of the same ol' tired apologetic rhetoric we've heard a bazillion times before, with each and every time, making us more and more sure that we made the right choice in dismissing your current mystical mash-mash of a religion, and our former mish-mash of a religion? If so, go right ahead.

You can try to bring me down all you want...

Anony', you've sacrificed your intellect, your integrity---essentially, your entire "self"--- for a religion. Further, you will waste a considerable portion of the life you know you have, on the off-chance of some imagined "post-mortem" life. We couldn't possibly bring you down lower than what you already are---we can only "lift you up". Now come...won't you join us in reality?

... nothing you can say will ever make me turn!

Right....and that's called a religious conviction. Literally, NOTHING could falsify your belief. Roger-that, fundy'...breaker-breaker.

"I am Fireproof"

But unfortunately, not maggot-proof.

~Pillar

....of sand---crumbles in wake of reason.

...If God is for us, who can be against us?

~Romans 8:31


The Almighty Allah says, "And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray, "our Lord! we believe: write us down among the witnesses."

~ Surah Ma'idah, verse: 86


Anonymous Rick said...
You can try to bring me down all you want, nothing you can say will ever make me turn!

Thank you, fundibot, for showing us what you truly are. Sticking your fingers in your ears and hollering "la la la" could not have made a better presentation of your lack of intelligence and your absence of the ability to actually think for yourself.

You have shown us that your belief system is so fragile that you cannot and will not ever tolerate questioning what you think you know. You have crushed your idea of god into this tiny thing and you protect it by keeping yourself ignorant and blind. You are so afraid of being wrong that you deny yourself the ability to examine those beliefs.

You believe because you need to believe, not because there is a truth to it.


Blogger Andrea said...
Most people are unable to think in the abstract. Religion is a way for them to understand their universe.

If their religion is giving them faith, and strength, and hope, and promoting goodness, more power to them.

The fact that con artists so abuse major religions in such a fashion as to break the faith of their believers is upsetting.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
Andrea: If their religion is giving them faith, and strength, and hope, and promoting goodness, more power to them.

Dear Andrea,

Some things to consider:

If one get's "faith", "hope", and "strength" out of their religious belief, and this works for them on a subjective level---meaning, they don't need to validate it to anyone but themselves, because their feelings, thoughts, etc., are obviously theirs---then that's one thing.

However, "promoting goodness" becomes quite another thing, in that, firstly, it makes it necessary that there is first Universal agreement on what "goodness" means, and to what limits/end it is "promoted". For instance, *hypothetically*, if whatever philosophy that was being "promoted" divided humanity, as opposed to uniting it, there might be some disagreement on whether or not that philosophy would be seen as "goodness", don't you think?

Secondly, if this "goodness", and to what limits it's "promoted", is based on the very same personal beliefs that give the individual "hope", and "strength" etc., then that should obligate them to provide objective evidence that said beliefs are more than just "personal" beliefs. In other words, that these beliefs are based on some sort of objective truth/reality.

Moreover, just because there are large numbers of people who may share the same personal beliefs, doesn't make them exempt, as groups/individuals, from validating what it is they're "promoting"---especially if part of their campaign includes telling people who don't agree with their beliefs where they'll "spend eternity"..... if you catch my drift.

Peace, Boom'


Anonymous Anonymous said...
This is a good article. It's well written, I relate to the complications expressed and I think it's important to express the fact that religion isn't for everyone. It's a very interesting angle, my parents keep telling me about an agnostic scholar who went around the world, learning about all religions, and converted to Christianity. Now I have a nice rebuttal.

I guess I'm saying religion is just like any other device humanity uses. Cars, computers, money. We use them for good, and for bad. All we have to figure out is if the device ends up like computers (a device that allows all levels of society to learn and grow), or like guns (a device that has no real positive effects).