News of interest to former Christians


AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Jeremy Beahan experienced a powerful conversion while attending Cornerstone University.

Actually, make that "de-conversion."

As the 26-year-old Grand Rapids resident pored over classical arguments seeking to prove God's existence, he found they no longer added up.

"There were just plain philosophical problems with the attributes of God," said Beahan, who had planned to go into ministry before he graduated in 2005. "It just seemed that the evidence was overwhelming on the side of atheism.

"It was purely an academic conversion."

Beahan's wife, Jennifer, soon followed suit. They took a long walk as Jeremy professed his new-found beliefs. He never pressured her to change her worldview, both insist. It just kind of happened as she delved further.

Both were raised in religious homes, and led their respective youth groups.

"We weren't the fringe kids that never fit in anywhere," said Jennifer, 25.

However, they felt increasingly isolated, convinced their new ideas would not be welcome at the conservative Christian school. Their parents weren't exactly elated, either, but accepted their new path.

Not only do the two feel there need not be a God to explain the universe's existence and order, but also that fundamentalist religion plays a huge role in many conflicts plaguing global society. The events of 9/11 and the war in Iraq, they say, are examples of how unmitigated faith can lead to exponential suffering.

Where do we go from here?

Atheism is but one component of the Beahans' beliefs. As Jennifer puts it, "Once you've defined what you're not, you need to define what you are."

The Beahans call themselves naturalists. They rely solely on science, empiricism and observation to unveil truths that believers might seek from their understanding of a divine presence.

They found a friend in the Grand Rapids-based Freethought Association of West Michigan, where Jennifer Beahan is assistant director. The group holds regular discussions, movie nights and celebrations that encourage community and, of course, dialogue.

The two joined the group while at Cornerstone.

"It's very important to have that community and have a group of people that challenge you," Jeremy Beahan said. "That was good because it's very lonely being a Bible college atheist.

"You have to be careful who you say it to."

Negative connotations of the word "atheism" have led some non-believers to utilize a different term -- "non-theist." Spring Lake resident Dr. Robert Collins, 68, calls it "safer."

Collins grew up Catholic. Crucifix on his wall, daily rosaries, nightly contrition -- the whole nine yards.

"It scared the crap out of me," he said.

A Freethought participant since 1997, he said he experienced a strong animosity toward Christianity, but that faded as he became more attuned with his core beliefs.

"There's a stage where there is a lot of anger toward your religious indoctrination and a strong rejection of religion," he said.

Collins and his wife, Sherron, also attend Fountain Street Chruch, 24 Fountain St. NE. The Freethoughts have participated in interfaith services at the church.

Though Fountain Street claims to be liberal in its discourse, Collins said he is becoming disenchanted.

"They're still stuck on theology," he said. "Even though they're quite liberal and try to expand the concept of God, they're still stuck in God language -- they still speak of 'the soul.' "

His heroes today include the likes of Galileo, Darwin and Pasteur -- not Mother Teresa, he said.

One of his favorite quotes is by Benjamin Franklin: "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

Conflicting views


But why is there something rather than nothing?

"I don't know, and that's OK," said Jeff Seaver, Freethought Association director.

The 37-year-old Allendale Township resident formed the nonprofit association as he and two others stood around a fire about 10 years ago and talked about the idea of God. At first an informal group of fewer than a dozen, there are now more than 330 registered members.

The association soon will become an official part of the Amherst, N.Y.-based Center for Inquiry, which Seaver says will open the door to more speakers and programs. Seaver also is a former believer, and said he faced a much less daunting task when he allowed Christianity to fill his knowledge gaps.

"When I was religious, I knew why I was here," he said.

Enter Socrates: "The more I knew, the more I didn't know."

Like the Beahans, Seaver believes ideas are subject to change upon deeper inquiry.

But one thing is for certain: any degree of uncertainty "does not open the door to God as an explanation," Seaver said.

Kelly Clark, professor of philosophy at Calvin College, understands the allure of atheism.

He gave two lectures at Church of the Servant, 3835 Burton St. SE, with Calvin biology professor Steve Matheson in May. They addressed whether evolution presents a problem for religious believers.

In his opinion, the domains of science and faith don't overlap. Each serves its own purpose, he said. And one thing science cannot do is debunk the theory that humanity within the universe is the way it is because that's the way God wanted it to be.

"Thinking that there are natural practices involved doesn't mean there wasn't a divine purpose," Clark said.

Going on the offensive

Atheists have "gone on the offensive," Clark said. He says much of that is due to criticisms of organized religion by
Richard Dawkins, author of "The God Delusion," and Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith."

Both authors agree that religion is a "net force for evil in the world," Clark said. In some ways, they're right on point, particularly when it comes to "fear of unthinking fundamentalism."

"It's gotten empirical confirmation in the last couple of years," he said.

But Christianity has its own answer to the question, he adds.

"If you believe in original sin, you have a pretty good explanation of why human beings kill other human beings, whether or not original sin is something we're biologically conditioned to," he said.

While atheists might have an advantage when it comes to the explaining the "hiddenness of God" and answering the question of "why there's so much evil in the world," everyone draws facts and inferences from the same sources -- Christianity "plus one."

"Neither of us has any better information to go on than any other," Clark said. "Everyone is making a faith commitment on these matters. (Atheists) act like they have no faith commitment, but that's not true."

Clark believes many turn to atheism to shirk moral accountability, but Jeremy Beahan balks at that notion.

Moral dialogue is something that's been going on since well before Christianity, he said.

"One of the biggest stereotypes or misperceptions about atheists is that if there is no God, there is no basis for morality," he said. "We don't believe we're going to have an afterlife necessarily, so things have to be done here for reasons that make sense here on Earth.

"That can be challenging."

LINK
 
Blogger ComputerGuyCJ said...
Ah, Grand Rapids, my home town. I wasn't aware of the presence of the Freethought Association while I lived there, but I did know about the Fountain Street Church. It's highly despised among the Christians who live there, of which there are many. People joke that there is a church on every corner in Grand Rapids, and they're not too far off.

It's good to see that there is an association on the offensive about Christianity. With the abundance of sects that confuse so many, I'm sure there are plenty who are hungry for the truth about Christianity. I know I was hungry at times.


Anonymous Q25 said...
Ah, it's not often that I see my alma mater in the news, though I have seen several professors I knew crop up from time to time. Odd to see Calvin professors that I recognize commenting on evolution or atheism. Calvin is a private Christian College - one that I attended for four years. I was already deeply questioning Christianity when I entered, and came to think of Calvin as Christianity's last chance to justify and prove itself in my life. Alas, it didn't succeed.

I find it highly ironic that the article claims, "Kelly Clark, professor of philosophy at Calvin College, understands the allure of atheism", but then goes on to say, "Clark believes many turn to atheism to shirk moral accountability". Right - so he thinks the "allure of atheism" is being about "[shirking] moral accountability"? It's sad that a philosophy professor knows so little about atheism that he thinks this way. Perhaps Clark would also like to reveal his ignorance of Islam by claiming "it's about strapping a bomb to your chest" or about Buddhism by claiming "it's about worshipping a fat guy". Clark doesn't know atheism. But, we know Christianity - we've been raised in Christian households, been students at Calvin, attended church regularly on Sundays and Wednesdays, and read books on Christian apologetics. We've found Christianity and all the other religions lacking. We've stood up and said so even when faced with the threat of eternal damnation. We live moral lives knowing that there is no God or karma that's going to repay us for our actions.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
I live in Grand Rapids and attended Calvin College, so I'm getting a kick out of the replies. I also attend the Freethought Association events -- just last week I attended the lecture on political expression by minorities.

I took Prof. Kelly Clark's Philosophy of Religion class. In that class, he really focused on the dubious morality of the Christian doctrine of hell. I wasn't bothered by Christianity at the time, so the class did not make much of an impression on me.

But Calvin College is much better than Cornerstone University. At least you can get an education at Calvin. At Cornerstone, all you'd get is a brainwashing.

I attended Fountain Street Church a couple of times, and I agree that it was pretty unstimulating. There were no young people, and it focused on namby-pamby modern liberal theology. That stuff is almost as nauseating as fundamentalism.

Anyway, now I'm just rambling so I'll stop. If you go to the Freethought Association events, look for me -- I'm the guy who keeps going to the table in the back for more coffee!


Blogger jane said...
The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.
--Arthur C. Clarke

And, how incredibly arrogant of Christians to believe that atheists are without morality!!! Has it never occurred to them that since atheists have intrinsic motivation toward morality and do not require extrinsic motivators like the "reward" of heaven and/or the punishment of purgatory and/or hell that perhaps we are actually of higher moral fiber? Have you ever heard of an atheist killing someone or stealing their land because they of their beliefs??? I think not.


Blogger ComputerGuyCJ said...
Jane,
I like your thinking. You know, it's kind of funny that when I was a kid I misbehaved even though I might end up on Santa's naughty list. Oddly, I always still got gifts. In the same way I deliberately disobeyed God on more than one occasion and was still "blessed". Religion seemed to have a reverse effect on my moral choices. I saw that there was a certain amount of immorality that I could get away with and still be okay. Even pastors and other Christians who knew some immoral things I had done still considered me a good little Christian boy. If I were a declared atheist I'm sure they wouldn't have thought the same way.


Blogger David said...
I read a lot on this site about how atheists are 'freethinking'. Can someone explain why Christians can't also be free thinking? This is a serious question so please keep the sarcasm and insults to a minimum. Thanks.


Anonymous Lorena said...
Why Christians can't also be free thinkers?

Geez... perhaps you want to wait for the book I could write about it.

1)Because if you do, you are labeled a rebel and often believed to be demon possessed.

2)Because if you start thinking, the Bible, the sermons, and the Christian traditions make absolutely no sense.

3)Because bringing "Every thought captive to Christ" means that your every thought, or topic of conversation, has to align with the belief system.

4) Sacrilege. In church, any person who dares to doubt that, say, Jonas wasn't in the fish for three days, is committing sacrilege.

5) Because any way of thinking that isn't Christian is labeled "satanic."

How in hell can anyone think freely when there are so many strict regulations about what ONE CAN THINK ABOUT?

Christianity and free-thinking constitute an oxymoron.


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
I started asking questions about 5-point Calvinism when I belonged to "relationship" oriented Evangelical church.

I was labeled as sowing discord among the brethren.

Free thought? Not possible in church.


Blogger Jim Arvo said...
David,

I think "freethought" is a rather loaded term, so I don't like to use it myself. To my mind, what it comes down to is this: Are you willing and able to examine what you believe and why? Most atheists that I know personally, or have communicated with over the years, are quite willing and able to take any given belief (whether it is one that they hold or not), and ask "Is this is reasonable belief?" and "What is it based on?" In contrast, I am continually shocked by how many Christians (at least among those who visit this site) who cannot seem to do this. It seems the level of cognitive dissonance is just to great to contemplate the possibility that their "faith" may be unfounded. Of course, this is not true of ALL the Christian visitors--there are some who apparently can allow themselves to ponder such questions. But Christianity itself actively dissuades such questioning, and to me that is one of the chief drawbacks to religion.

Does that answer your question?


Anonymous Goliath said...
David: "Can someone explain why Christians can't also be free thinking? This is a serious question so please keep the sarcasm and insults to a minimum. Thanks."

David, to me, when I think of "free thought", I think of the endeavor to seek out epistemological truth(s), even if during an honest inquiry, one questions the very existence of God/gods.

An orthodox/fundamentalist/fundy Christian accepts the bible literally, and therefore, there can be no "free thought", they have absolute answers for all time, in one book. An example of a fundamentalist Christian, is one who believes there is the unforgivable sin of denying the Holy Ghost, or God, else one becomes immediately bound for Hell with no redemption possible.

A liberal Christian to "me” has more flexibility to freely think, because they are more political than spiritual, in "my" opinion. Still, they would not be "Christian" if they questioned God's existence freely without "any" encumbrance.

Liberal Christians tend to move with the crowd, pick pastors they like and not how they are qualified to teach the word, and cherry pick biblical passages in order to build their customized belief system, it's more individualistic and the religion "caters" to the need of the individual, in spite, of the literal bible, or in light of epistemological truth(s).

The second a Christian states that they have "no" encumbrance of belief, in order to "freely think", they become non-Christian. There are varying degrees of "free thought", from fundamentalist impossibility of free thought, to a Christian who only holds to the "very basic" set of beliefs, i.e., God exists, etc., and is able to freely challenge all else in the bible and in their belief system.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.


Anonymous tinyfrog said...
"Can someone explain why Christians can't also be free thinking?"

Christians are allowed to think for themselves on certain subjects, but it's constrained (much like a domesticated animal is allowed to wander in the field - but only inside the fence - the fence of Christian theology). Wander too far, and you'll be labeled a "liberal Christian" or heretic (whether or not that means you aren't a "true Christian" is debatable). I think Carlton Pearson (whom I talk about in my blog - do a search on his name to find it) fits the description of someone who thought a little too freely about Christianity, and realized that the whole doctrine of hell was terribly unfair to billions of people (many of whom never had a chance to hear about Christianity - and were, according to conventional Christianity, doomed to hell). His new theology is that everyone goes to heaven. He was branded a heretic, ostracized, and ridiculed by mainstream American Christianity. Now, assuming he's still considered a "Christian", is he "freethinking"? Well, even with this unorthodox views, he is still tied to his belief in heaven and "Jesus as savior". There are simply things that he takes on faith - ideas that are essentially founded on thin-air in terms of actual evidence.

There's also the fact that 2 Corinthians 10:5 preaches that Christians shouldn't think too much for themselves: "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ". And also Jesus in Matthew 18:3-4, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." What do little children do? They don't ask questions. New Testament comparisons of Christians to sheep also have the same message - sheep are to be lead, not decide for themselves.

Martin Luther has lots of interesting quotes on the topic of thinking for oneself: "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." Jerry Falwell says, "Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."

The main problem seems to be that thinking too much might lead you out of the "pasture" of Christianity.


Blogger David said...
Thanks all.


Anonymous tinyfrog said...
Anonymous:
"I don't see how you can explain miracles with this belief system?"

Yes, it can't. However, as a former believer, I don't believe any actual miracles have occurred. Yes, I've heard of cases where people have cancer or MS that goes into remission. Other diseases, on the other hand, seem to have an almost unstoppable trajectory that ends in death - regardless of religious beliefs. This occurs across a wide variety of people and religious beliefs - which leads me to the conclusion that spontaneous remission is a property of the disease and independent of prayer or miraculous healing. Christians have taken cases of cancer and MS and held them up as examples of divine healing, when that answer seems highly dubious.

"There are many documented and verifiable miracles in this world."
I doubt that. I know that there are plenty of examples of people misattributing events to miracles, and other cases of people lying about miracles or exaggerating events to make them sound miraculous. Saying "there are many documented and verifiable miracles in this world" is about as accurate as saying there are many documented and verifiable cases of psychics making authentic psychic predictions.

"No life, not even the tiniest living cell can be reproduced by any man."
There are people working on creating a new form of life at this very moment. When this happens, will it diminish your belief that creating life is really, really hard?

"Yet, you believe that the 1st sign of life, the "one" that kick started evolution, came to be because of random processes."
Yes, because there's a gigantic universe and each tiny section of it gets a chance at creating life. If we put the odds of life coming together at 1 in 10^20 per cubic centimeter of planetary surface per year, the odds of life occurring are highly likely because we have so much surface area in the universe and so much time. On the other hand, if you setup an aquarium and conditions for life to spontaneously arise from random processes, the 1 in 10^20 odds would leave you waiting a long, long time.


Blogger Jim Arvo said...
Marc,

You've been asked to leave multiple times. What part of "goodbye" do you not understand? I have zero respect for those who cannot examine their own beliefs, and that includes you. Your straw men are laughable and your credulity is absolutely pitiful--that's what happens when you don't have the courage or honesty to question your own beliefs.


Anonymous Goliath said...
Marc: "To believe that we exist and that no prime mover, ie. God, created this world. -> I don't see how you can explain miracles with this belief system? There are many documented and verifiable miracles in this world."

Lets say the Natural phenomena of an eclipse is wondrous Marc, do you conclude that because it's wondrous that there exists a different Universe where a perfect God resides? Please tell us, that you are not suggesting that because you have experienced the beauty and awe of Nature, than you need to create an entirely "different" reality, in order to make sense out of the experience... or is that your position.

Marc: "It appears that none of you could ever believe the facts presented because you're bound by naturalism. BTW, being bound doesn't sound too free to me."

Marc, we are bound to "One" united and single Universe, that's not a choice, its a fact of life... Do you suggest you are not "bound" to this single United Universe? If you can't figure out how to escape, you are bound as well.

Marc: "To believe that we are the product of random micro-biological changes combined with natural selection, aka. evolution?
-> No life, not even the tiniest living cell can be reproduced by any man. Yet, you believe that the 1st sign of life, the "one" that kick started evolution, came to be because of random processes."

First of all, do you accept it all happened in "One" United Universe? If so, no matter "what" answer is the truest answer, its an answer based on "Nature", as in a United Reality, all answers lead to Nature.

Further, the claim that mankind can't reproduce life is providing a false alternative; you assert that because mankind can't pop cells out of thin air, that they can't possibly assert that they live in a "Single" reality called Nature is poor reasoning.

Let's help you out Marc, mankind can't create entire planets, which are "non-living" as well, and mankind can't create entire "solar systems", in theory, as well... how does that suggest in "any" way, that we aren't living in "One" Universe, that is "Natural"?

David, if you are still reading this thread, consider Marc as a test subject.

Marc is obviously not following a "free thought" paradigm. He is encumbered by an ideal that will not allow him to "think freely", all information provided to him, is less valid than his pre-supposed "multiple" reality theory, where a "God" exists. Whenever anything is presented to him, that tests the multiple Universe theory, his tactic is; smoke, chaff, flair, maneuver, in order to evade answering questions that challenge his Platonic ideal, where perfect forms reside in a transcendent Universe, other than "this" Universe.


Anonymous Goliath said...
Ooh, ooh, ooh, Marc, you forgot little ol' me, I want to know how you are able to think in a different Universe than the one you are living in, it's a simple question, care to proffer an answer?

By the way, I visited Grand Rapids a while back, it was pleasant enough, and yes, there were as many churches in that area as there are in a typical Southeastern state in the U.S.

The next time I'm up there, I'll stop by the Freethought Association if I can, preferably, not during the snow months :-)

Oh, back to the allure of Marc, who is obviously attempting to crash a Freethought thread that may give comfort to those who have left the fold.


Blogger ComputerGuyCJ said...
David said, "Can someone explain why Christians can't also be free thinking? This is a serious question so please keep the sarcasm and insults to a minimum. Thanks."

David, this is a serious answer. A Christian who thinks freely and questions the things they are taught eventually becomes an ex-Christian. That's what has happened to most us here. If you check the forums you'll see there's about 2,000 members so far that have become ex-Christians and if you read their testimonials you'll see that most of them de-converted after having studied the Bible and thought about what they were reading. I would venture to say that there are at least 100x more ex-Christians who have never visited this site.

If you examine the other side, people who have no religious belief or identify with another religion and convert to Christianity, the overwhelming majority of their decisions are based on emotion. Rational thought often overcomes emotion, so that's why freethinkers have a hard time keeping their faith.

How about you? If you examine your belief, is it based mainly on thought or on emotion? If it's based on emotion, can you say that you're proud of that?


Blogger Jim Arvo said...
You're an idiot, Marc. Get lost.


Blogger boomSLANG said...
M*rc: The Gospels tell us all that we need to know.

If the "Gospels" tell us "all we need to know", then whoever believes such; whoever adheres to such; whoever is a proponent of such, is most certainly NOT "free" to think outside of such, which should help to answer David's question.

M*rc: Unfortunately, today it appears that few people want to listen to the Good News...

The good news is that with the advent of the internet, more and more adults who were indoctrinated with the Christian meme have the resources available to them to seek truth objectively. That said, we could very well find the deconversion testimonies of M*rc's own children on this site one day = ). Praise the Lard!


Blogger Astreja said...
boomSLANG: "That said, we could very well find the deconversion testimonies of M*rc's own children on this site one day = ).

Já! Make. It. So.


Anonymous Goliath said...
Marc: "To be honest, this question doesn't make much sense to me. You're asking me how the spiritual world relates to this universe?"

Well, yes, something like that. What I'm asking, is... do both the spiritual world and this planet reside in the "same" Universe? More general, do you believe there is only "One" Universe, where "all" resides, whatever we want to call planets, realms, systems, etc?

Marc: "The Gospels tell us all that we need to know."

Can you please point to the verse that suggests there are multiple Universes where a perfect Universe and God reside, outside of this Natural Universe, thanks.

Marc: "Unfortunately, today it appears that few people want to listen to the Good News..."

I think many people care about good news Marc, I think it’s the fallacious bad news they're question :-)


Blogger J. C. Samuelson said...
Remember Heb. 12:14 or Matt. 7:6, Marc? Either would fit rather well. I certainly wouldn't mind if you thought of me as a pig or a dog if you chose to leave, and if you chose to live at peace with us instead of constantly provoking people, that would be particularly nice.

Do you really have nothing better to do? Aren't there people in your community you need to minister to? What about your family? Don't you have a life to attend to? Or is spamming ExC your new calling?

Marc is just being the rude little troll he's been since he got here.


Anonymous tinyfrog said...
Tinyfrog, here's your documented miracle. This link is a small book that will even list for you the papers that documented before and after this Miracle of the Sun. You cannot argue with 70,000 witnesses.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm


I didn't read this link because it was extremely long (215 pages according to print preview on my browser). I did look it up elsewhere.

Some of the descriptions simply sound like people were staring at the sun for periods of time, which caused illusions. If you have ever gone into a dimly lit bathroom and stared at your image in the mirror, you'll begin to see all kinds of weird things - your face will change colors, disappear, reappear, look like someone else, etc. The images you would see tended to be heavily influenced by what you expected to see. I had friends who swear they saw all kinds of crazy stuff, and even ran out of the bathroom screaming. It has to do with neutron fatigue. I wouldn't be that surprised if people, staring at the sun, especially if dehydrated, would see "the sun dance" (if the sun is up in the sky, you have no clear reference points, and your eyes could fool you into thinking the sun is moving), change colors (like in the bathroom mirror), or see the Mary's face (like in the bathroom mirror). And, yes, some people were there and said that they saw absolutely nothing unusual happen. To say that "70,000" people saw it is very questionable - who knows what percentage of the people there saw anything.

And apparently, there were large variations in the things people reportedly saw: "Kevin McClure [author of The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary] stated that he had never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts of a case in any of the research he had done in the previous ten years."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

Maybe some atmospheric condition happened (like a sundog), and people with the most extravagant claims managed to get themselves into the paper.

It's unfortunate there is no photographic images of it, or else we might nail it down a whole lot better. Oddly, photographers were there and there are photographs of the crowds. According to one report:
"Avelino de Almeida says that he saw “the sun dance”, but his fellow reporter, the photographer, Judah Ruah, nephew of the famous photographer Joshua Benoliel, who worked with him, saw nothing. Why? According to him, because nothing strange happened to the Sun. When he saw all those people kneeling, he understood that it was the happening and that is why he photographed it."
http://www.portcult.com/FAT.12.NEWSPAPER.2.htm

Obviously, this "miracle" was not seen by everyone, which raises questions about hallucination, dehydration, and what percentage of people actually saw anything at all.

On a similar note, Uri Gellar once claimed that he would bend people's silverware if they placed it on their TVs while he did his spoonbending tricks. Apparently, a number of people claimed their silverware actually bended. Of course, I think some people are liars.

Also, many of the "eyewitness" reports are taken from "John de Marchi". Having heard stories about certain sensationalist authors, I'm quite aware of the way an author can embellish stories to sell books and create myths. Apparently, the myth of the "Bermuda Triangle" comes from (I think) Vincent Gaddis, who had a strong tendency to create fantastic tales out of unusual events.

Based on your comment on the probability of life, I recommend Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" to get a glimpse at the complexity of life.

Yes, I have a pretty good idea about the complexity of life (I studied biology). In fact, I flipped through Behe's new book earlier tonight. One thing that I dislike about IDists and creationists is their tendency to show something that is very complex, then stand back and go -- gee, I can't imagine any way to do that except through the actions of some superintelligence. Yup, life is complex. But, evolutionary mechanisms are very good at building complexity. In my opinion, IDists don't even bother to consider how these things might have happened via evolutionary mechanisms - the result is that they get to claim god did it. But, other scientists have come along and pointed out how evolution could have built this or that system. It's intentional laziness on the part of IDists - and that intentional laziness pays off in allowing them to point to [an intelligent designer] god as "the only possible explanation".


Anonymous ryan said...
David? Hi, ryan here. I took an interest in your posting, and allow me to inquire of you:

What part of your practice as a christian involves freethought? Do you disbelieve parts of the bible? Do you believe in the bible at all? Can you with any seriousness question the existence of a deity? I am having difficulty putting "freethought" together with "christian".

I have known many christians who thought of themselves as educated and well-read--and indeed many have had splendid intellects. But they used their minds to defend traditional christian doctrines and to prove the inerrancy of the bible. Their position is this: "if we are truly thinking, and if our minds are open, we will arrive at christian belief". What exactly is it that makes such thinking "free"?

I will state my own position as a matter of courtesy. I have a brilliant mind, I am educated and well-read, and the process of thought led me to complete atheism. I anticipate your responding to the effect that I am narrow-minded and prejudiced; not thinking at all.

By way of a little anecdote, I once heard a clergyman say that "the only freedom is found under god's authority". I still shudder inside when I think of that.


Blogger Astreja said...
(looks up quotations, scratches head, shrugs)

I fail to see how "keep the peace" and "don't cast pearls before swine" constitute threats. Ironic when the complainant is a person who fails to see his own rudeness and arrogance. By the Norns, I *know* when I'm being rude and arrogant, and cheerfully admit as much.

But it all makes sense when one considers Marc's obsession with people who stare at the sun too long.

(puts a "stop payment" on all friendly sentiments ever expressed towards Marc, and wanders off to get herself a cup of coffee)


Post a Comment | Create a Link | Post in the Forums | Permalink



The first 200 comments appear here under the article. If over 200 comments are posted, click on the "newer" and "newest" links on the Post a Comment page to continue reading the latest comments.

AddThis Social Bookmark Button

  Subscribe to this post's Comments (Atom).
Subscribe to every post's Comments (RSS).
Quickly catch up on all recent comments posted on ExChristian.Net on the Recent Comments page.

<< Home