Well now I understand the hatred many people feel here. If that was my daughter, I'd be infuriated. Makes me sick to see forced observance such as prayer before games ..

America is so fucked up.

Her story is something you'd more likely expect from countries like Pakistan or Iran, but at least those countries are openly intolerant.

It seems American christians are more underhanded and sly in their bullying and bigotry. Denying any bullying until they are caught redhanded (or rednecked).

She'd be better off here in Australia. We've got religios nutjobs too, but they're not the dominant majority that seems to exist in rural USA.

Anyone else notice the two pastors go on about how they weren't discriminatory.

Then they said things that made it clear they knew so little about atheism that it was clear that they probably discriminated without even knowing it.

Most bigots have no idea they are actually bigots.

That dad is cool.

America is a secular nations, so either accept my lack of belief in god, or get the hell out!

Nice moustache.

I agree with the comments about comparing the US with intolerant countries like Pakistan and Iran. Glad I don't live in that fucked up country.

The pastor's wife who was also a substitute teacher also claimed that she never witnessed any discrimination and that, to paraphrase her, "all our kids are good kids and wouldn't do such a thing." Bullshit!! The kids are just reflecting the views they were taught and see in their parents' actions.

Kids don't develop attitudes like this on their own. They learn them from the adults in their home and community. They don't know what an atheist believes or doesn't believe, just like the adults, but they've learned that an "atheist" is different so they must be bad.

This girl has got guts and has earned my admiration. There aren't too many adults who would stick to their principles like she is. I hope that she wins her suit and that the court really sticks it to that school administration.

Dear Jesus, Protect me from your followers.

I thought the 20/20 story was very good and very sympathetic to this poor child. It is clear that rural America has been colonized by the mind virus that turns humans into BibleBots.

I live in Owosso Michigan pop.16,000. It's no Bible belt community, but we do have a shitload of churches and religious folk. I was just about to write my coming out as an atheist letter to our local paper. Now I don't know. I have a 12 year old daugher in school and now I am afraid it could have repercussions. At 12 my daughter doesn't know what she believes, and I will let her make up her own mind as she reaches the age of reason. I just wouldn't want her to be picked on for having an atheist father. What a sad shitty story that was.


Is that woman like dumb as a fence post? How could someone with an IQ above 75, especially a religious person not know what an atheist is?

xrayman

This just makes my blood boil. Freakin' religious fruitcakes!

Nicole, honey, you ROCK! You are more mature and more human than ALL of 'em!

chris

nicole is hot ,she will do well

Nicole,

You are my hero and a beautiful person indeed! My son was very impressed with your display of courage on the court and in speaking out publicly, on 20/20.

We look forward to meeting you and your family next week, at the Rally for Reason in Northern Kentucky. I can't wait to hear your band ROCK IT OUT for our rights to be rational and honest thinking human beings.

People are coming from all over the world to stand with us, to support YOU and ME and EVERYONE else who live religious free, or as according to nature's reality. There is going to be a film maker there, putting together an at length documentary of the rally and good times we shared throughout the day.

It is time for the secular population to come forward in PUBLIC and stand together to fight back against ALL the invasive religious supremacy cults worldwide, who make war on unbelievers and corrupt the common good of humanity, just to impose their fears and superstitions on humankind.

We will show everyone watching, that we are determined to uphold our nation's constitution by supporting the separation of church and state.

We are peacefully speaking out against religious bigotry and hypocrisy. They will know that atheist, agnostics, freethinkers, secular humanists, and even the non-conforming spiritualists and theists have all come together to speak out in favor of REASON!

Atheists usually are happy and thoughtful people, and we should refuse to be bullied by someone else's beliefs in ancient fantasies and fairytales.

You deserve to know what it's like to have your own "circle" of friends to stand with, that are mindful of your existence in life and want to show you love and acceptance; just the same as on the day you were born.

Stay strong and don't let those "wicked" Christian's get to you. Their religious ignorance is not worth your tears.

I see a father that is ridiculously rude and insensitive to his daughter during that interview.

I see Christians that have lost sight of the fact that they don’t have a right to judge, anyone! If they really cared for that little girl’s spiritual health, they would love her. They shouldn’t be judging her and discriminating against her because of her upbringing or her atheism.

If these people were truly living in the Truth, they would recognize that the only way to evangelize, is with love.

I also see the sickness of atheism being manifested with the anonymous post stating “nicole is hot ,she will do well”

Melissa, with regards to this statement:
“Atheists usually are happy and thoughtful people”
are you basing this on some particular study?

Indeed, Christ detests atheism but you cannot heal any of God's lost children with hatred. Our best chance at reaching them is with love and prayers.

Please fellow Christians, let us all endeavor to live by reflecting the love and peace that Christ gives us! Hatred of any degree will do nothing to reveal the Truth.

Blessings,
Marc

As a Christian, I experienced many similar problems at the University of California, Berkeley, a school supposedly open to other views. It would appear, than, that all social groups have the same characterics, to exclude those who do not hold to the standard view.

Unblinded: "I see a father that is ridiculously rude and insensitive to his daughter during that interview."

Of course you will see it that way! You have a biased religious agenda in saying that, because your indoctrinated mind compels you to make demeaning remarks about someone else’s character, simply because they lack a belief in your faith.

Anyone, that you have deemed "despised" and "less than" your special people of faith, are going to get this type of unworthy accusation. You are seeing the world through religious colored glasses, and it distorts your perception of reality.

Instead, why not see a Dad that is stressed out from having his daughter exiled from her PUBLIC SCHOOL. The Smallkowski family has had to deal with discrimination and prejudice, because of people who advocate the same things YOU do! Why is it so hard for so many Christians to be positive and accepting of others who are different than they? Leave people alone already. If they want what the faith you got, they will come to you. You don’t need to go after people like this.

Why must you invade this thread with your discontent and drivel? We already know what you will say...before you say it. The bible is your operating program. We get it!
Round of applause and cheers! Hooray for you, now can you please stop trying to beat us over the head with "your truth"?

Religious zealots and evangelical fundamentalist are trying to force their unfounded beliefs onto the minority, even though we are protected by a Bill Of Rights from ever having to assimilate to, or be ruled by, the wishful thinking religious majority.

You keep your prayers out of my school and I will keep my thoughts out of your church.
What Nicole experienced would not happen in my children's school. Jesus allegedly said “pray as if you were in a closet.” (Why do atheists usually have to teach Christians about their own faith and proper biblical practices, accordingly?)

How would you feel, if the Muslim kids wanted to start kneeling in prayer, before and after games in any school in America.

What if YOUR kids were made to sit out? Be a real person would ya?
Imagine how that would make you feel as a Dad. Your kids are made to feel inferior and unaccepted, forced from their school, under constant ridicule from little inconsiderate religioius supremacists that are raised by intolerant evangelical fundamentalists...like yourself.

Shame on you for supporting this nonsense, by repeating that same display of intolerance that basketball team demonstrated on the video.

Unblinded:"They shouldn’t be judging her and discriminating against her because of her upbringing or her atheism.

See...there you go again with your arrogant assumptions and, yet again, you must demonize atheists because you think it makes YOUR faith look better.

Her upbringing (of which you no NOTHING about!) is not the topic of this discussion. Please, stop hijacking conversations on these boards in order to pick at people who deemed your beliefs acient fantasy.

Why are you doing this? Do get enjoyment out of it? Does it help you deal with your own doubts? Evangelical in need of…reassurance.

Why does it bother you that we lack beliefs in all man made god concepts like Zeus and Jesus or any other that ever been invented by enslaved ancient civilizations under the rule of opium smoking despots.

We are born with no religious beliefs; until someone instructs us differently.

Stop assuming you are right about it all, and we are all wrong. You are neither omnipotent nor divine.

Don’t you have some other website to go to, one that caters to your cultish religious needs? Why do you come here to meddle in the lives of people you do not have any intention of getting to know or give yourself an honest opportunity to learn from?

What you are doing is called religious bullying.
No one here is buying what you believe you are selling.

Unblinded:"I also see the sickness of atheism being manifested with the anonymous post stating “nicole is hot, she will do well”

Please notice that it's posted by an anonymous person. That should say it all. No regular poster who uses their name and has credibility on here would ever say such a thing.

My guess? It is probably and more than likely, a fundamentalist in anony disguise, posting up some nasty slogan, in order to "poison" the conversation against people like myself and Nicole, just so special needs people like you can have your faith fluffed as you continually make extraordinary claims about manifestations.

You are just *~* absurd. Sickness of atheism...and your pathetically large ego is not natural.

Unblinded said: "If these people were truly living in the Truth, they would recognize that the only way to evangelize is with love."

Do you have any facts to back that up? (Please refrain from quoting the man made Bible.) It is of no use in supporting your current modified belief system.

Living Truth Evangelist, now that is an oxymoron. Laughable even.
BTW: Your invasive and rude comments on here do not adhere to what you spoke of up there. Which is it? Love them, or spite them?

Love was certainly not the feeling I got from your post and is not found to hiding behind your evangelical "condemn them" and “God despises them” beliefs.

Unblinded:"Melissa, with regards to this statement:
“Atheists usually are happy and thoughtful people”
Are you basing this on some particular study? “

No. I don't need a study, nor does one need to be provided to you. This is my observation of most atheists I know. We are a relatively small group of folks.
As loving and mindful parent, I try to teach my kids to embrace change as it happens, and to be open to finding the good in people. I am happy and I am an atheist. Does that count for anything?

We are regular people, who believe in love and family and we try to care for each other the best ways we know how. I refuse to live by, or advocate a demeaning concept like hell or the nonsense of a cosmic babysitter, just to sustain dark aged beliefs.

Any one group can fall into a study to measure their happiness. Atheists have meaningful lives, despite your need to think otherwise.

I know I get tired of religious fundys messing with people, threatening them with their irrational beliefs, interfering with people's personal lives, intruding on our government and invading our public squares. They do ALL of this, in their feeble attempts to build a theocracy on top of our democratic republic.

Casting people out, as you are attempting to do right now on this thread, you nice loving Evangelical Christian You.

Unbelievable:"Indeed, Christ detests atheism but you cannot heal any of God's lost children with hatred. Our best chance at reaching them is with love and prayers."

Well, here's you're sign fundys!
Please, refrain from making rhetorical and subjective statements like this.

Do you want us to dance for you and recite: oh Unblinded, your beliefs are so superior! Will that make you feel better? You act like you need a lot of appeasement... Kind of like the megalomaniac God in the Bible. You certainly appear to be acting in his "tortured" image.

Un, you look desperate in your dire need to convince people that your Truth is the only way to be a productive and healthy person. You try to go on and on about how atheism is despised by your special invisible GodMan. Okay, so he detests atheism.

Do you want a brownie for trivializing our existence?
Now what?

Go ahead. Say it. Pray for it. You advocate: Assimilate or burn in torturous anguish forever and ever at the hand of my imaginary master of twisted love and messed up mercy.

Well, go ahead...do it now! Pray that Nicole finds your supremacy cult appealing enough to trade in her own family identity, and their integrity as individuals, just to assimilate to your "ditto that" Christ is Greek dogma.

The bible promises that a True Christian will be able to ask for ANY THING and have those wishes fulfilled immediately, as in magically come to fruition.

Reveal YOUR truth Unblinded. Do you have the powers of a True Christian? Show us the magical fruits of your connection to the divine supernatural Godman and we shall flock to your side, you holier than thou religious supremacist.

Got any proof of your True Christian skills and beliefs?

I can answer for you. No you do not. Because, NO ONE on Earth can do this, guess there are no TRUE Christians.

I have investigated this myself. Pray for my friend Marc to have his legs grow back, as they were blown off by an IED in Iraq. He has been praying for months, and his family started the only evangelical church in their town.

Marc is getting prosthetics made, and has yet to walk in them. He has to build up his upper leg muscles to use them correctly. Science did what Faith could not.

Guess those primitive authors of the bible must have got their divine ESP signal mixed up that day, as the "ask and ye shall receive" quote must have been confused with the voice of peasant slaves serving up wine and bread to their religious priests and masters.

Unblindable: "Please fellow Christians, let us all endeavor to live by reflecting the love and peace that Christ gives us! Hatred of any degree will do nothing to reveal the Truth."

Oh, good grief. Christ gives you nothing of this sort. Your cognitive dissonance and egotistical beliefs do all of that for you. It is self centered and makes you feel exceptional.
You are special and we all suck. You have Christ and we are lost. This trivial mantra serves your own needy purposes, not ours.

And as far as the word Christ:

Christ is the English term for the Greek word ??????? (Christós), which literally means "The Anointed One". The Hebrew word for Christ is ???????? (Mašía?), usually transliterated Messiah.

The word is often misunderstood to be the surname of Jesus due to the numerous mentions of Jesus Christ in the Christian Bible. The word is in fact a title, hence its common reciprocal use Christ Jesus, meaning The Anointed One, Jesus. Followers of Jesus became known as Christians because they believed that Jesus was the Christ, or Messiah, prophesied about in the Tanakh (which Christians term the Old Testament).

The majorities of Jews rejects this claim and are still waiting for the Christ to come (see Jewish Messiah). Most Christians now wait for the Second Coming of Christ when they believe he will fulfill the rest of the Messianic prophecy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Yeah, be original. Actually live by your words up there, and stop sticking your crucifix where it does not belong. You have an air about you that is unkind and unloving to atheist and ex-Christians in general, so please, practice what you preach.

As for your need to spread the news about your Gods intolerance and hatred for those not of his superior desire to have his pick of our human crop, keep it contained to your church and closet.

You Unblinded, have the same chances as me, the atheist to all gods, of having to explain your atheism to Allah.

Maybe, your GodMan can have a cosmic battle with their GodMan and see who gets to declare themselves the super cosmic sized supremacy cult.

And, let us all endeavor to live by; first being honest with ourselves and each other.

That is how we solve problems.

Unblinded, live and let live.
Try it sometime

Once again, OUR small piece of public cyberspace is under fire from the fundys. Don't you already have enough public places under attack?

Melissa said: “that are raised by intolerant evangelical fundamentalists...like yourself.”

I’m intolerant because I disagree with any degree of hatred and detest the way these “Christians” behaved. ?

Melissa said: “Shame on you for supporting this nonsense”

There isn’t one sentence that indicates that I support this nonsense. Just because I disagree with godlessness, doesn’t mean I hate or judge any of you. So no Melissa, I’m actually on your side on this one.

The people that live next to us don’t believe in God, yet my wife goes for walks with his wife, I get into long discussions with him. We shovel each other’s drive way when away. We absolutely have no right, in any way, shape or form to discriminate against them. Who would we think we are to present ourselves in an elitist way to anyone! I detest that stuff and I also detest your judgmental presumptions on me.

The difference between you and I is that your judging me and I’m trying to talk about God’s love.

Peace,
Marc

The day wouldn't be complete without more mindless proselytizing from Marc.

About that "god" of yours... any evidence for her yet?

I'll keep asking, Marc. Maybe one day you'll get the point.

May the light of reason some day shine on you. Love and kisses...

Nuggets of wisdom from “UnBlinded”:

“…the sickness of atheism…”

“Our best chance at reaching them is with love…”

I suppose you think that you are modeling the “love” that you think it would take to reach someone who doesn’t believe as you do. Certainly, calling someone “sick” because they do not share your beliefs is the most loving thing that you can think of to do. So in kind, I will say that my impression after watching the news story is that the disease of Xianity is out of control in Oklahoma.

It is kind of like exchanging love taps, eh?

Spoomonkey

' Anyone seen the "Huggable" line of talking apologetic dolls?..the ones where you press their stomachs and they say the same 5 or 6 sentences over and over and over? Apparantly the '07 models can not only speak, but can type, as well.

Marc, with regards to your statement: "Indeed, Christ detests atheism.."

Are you basing this on some proof or even evidence that this "Christ" exists, much less that you personally *know* what he detests?

As far as Melissa's comment, that *most* atheists are happy people, goes: It was not absolute. It leaves wiggle room for those atheists who are not happy people. And I happen to have had the same experience as Melissa, in that *most* of the atheists I know are also happy people.

Whereas your statement is made to seem written in stone. "Indeed, Christ detests atheism.." So, since you state it as a fact, where is the proof?

Cheers,
chris

My apologies: Melissa's comment was that atheists are *usually* happy and thoughtful people. But, same difference. My point is that it leaves the wiggle room, based on what Melissa has honestly observed, and is not stated as an absolute indisputable fact with no evidence to back it up, as is Marc's comment.

chris

Hi Chris, you said “Are you basing this on some proof or even evidence that this "Christ" exists, much less that you personally *know* what he detests?”

At the following link, you’ll find the sentence “I loathe paganism.”. These are messages being given to Vassula Ryden from Jesus. Yup, for an atheist I’m sure that’s a hard sentence to take.
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/83/

Hi Jim,
“About that "god" of yours... any evidence for her yet?”
Sure do Jim, here it is again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
Someday you will get the point Jim, guaranteed.

Hi Spoonmonkey,
Yes, that is correct, sin is a sickness and we are all guilty of it. To be clear, atheism is a grave sin. I do agree with you that these “Christians” are out of control, as you say. As well, they are clearly sinning and I am quite happy to also join you in describing it as a disease. Sin is a disease…a sickness.

Based on this last paragraph, it logically presents ALL of us as sick. Anyone know a doctor?

May the light of God touch your hearts and reveal to all of you...the Truth.
Marc

At the following link, you’ll find the sentence “I loathe paganism.”. These are messages being given to Vassula Ryden from Jesus. Yup, for an atheist I’m sure that’s a hard sentence to take.
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/83/

"Jesus loathes paganism"....Ooooo ouch, stop.... you're hurting me. Please stop...don't say it. lol

Yes, Chris.... it's about as "hard to take" as "Santa dislikes naughty little boys and girls".

May reason find you so that you may abolish legendary, superstitious, thinking.

Marc said: Hi Jim,
“About that "god" of yours... any evidence for her yet?”
Sure do Jim, here it is again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

All right, Marc, but now you're going have to explain how the name of Allah is so clearly written in this watermelon: http://www.islamcan.com/miracles/melon.shtml

Then visit:

unlikelyphenomena=mygodisreal.com

He loathes Paganism?

I thought he detested atheism?

Last I checked, Paganism and atheism are two different things.

Marc, you are a wonderful example of what religion can do to what would otherwise be a normal human's mind.

I'm sure you'll take that as a compliment.

May the comfort of living in reality embrace you with hugs, snuggles, and a big wet sloppy smooch right on the lips.

Hi fjell_strom,

Are you seriously going to compare a natural phenomenon in a melon (although it is a rare coincidence) with nearly 100 thousand witnesses to a miracle? Please try to remember that this miracle was predicted 3 times in weeks prior to the event.

I sure hope that you have the presence of mind to see how you’re trivializing this miracle by comparing it with a melon, no?

Only witnesses within a certain periphery of the site saw the miracle. Some witnesses who weren’t at the actual main Fatima site, but within proximity also witnessed the miracle. I mention this just in case you use the “mass hallucination” “explanation”. There is no such thing as a “mass hallucination”, let’s be realistic please.

There is no explanation; it’s a miracle, plain and simple. Nothing natural or psychological could ever come close to explaining this event.

btw, your Unexplained Natural Phenomena web site didn’t work. Maybe you can send us all the working link.

Take care,
Marc

Unblinded said "Are you seriously going to compare a natural phenomenon in a melon (although it is a rare coincidence) with nearly 100 thousand witnesses to a miracle?"

Thanks to the internet I'm sure that in excess of a million people have now seen the watermelon (and the one of a fish with Allah on its side!
http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=7&newsID=4211), and they are located across THE ENTIRE EARTH - not limited to the measly 30 or so mile radius that I believe this "Fatima" was limited to?

So I ask you, are you seriously comparing a natural phenomena of a mere 100,000 people to the great incident of the Allah Melon or the Allah Fish as witnessed by millions all over the world?

Marc,

Why does a christian always assume that an atheist believes in jesus, or heaven or hell or whatever? Why would a sentence which says "I loathe paganism" hurt someone who does not believe that the godman it is attributed to exists? (boomSLANG put it so eloquently!)

Again, Marc, you must come up with some proof or evidence before I can believe in your jesus. If you could prove to me that he exists, then I wouldn't have to worry about atheism or paganism, now would I?

The light of reason has touched my mind, and revealed to me the truth.

Cheers!
chris

Marc: "There is no such thing as a “mass hallucination”, let’s be realistic please."

How about mass suicide?

"The first reports out of Guyana on November 18, 1978 were that Congressman Leo J. Ryan and four other members of his party were shot and killed as they attempted to board a plane at Port Kaituma airstrip. Within hours, came the shocking announcement that 408 American citizens had committed suicide at a communal village they had built in the jungle in Northwest Guyana. The community had come to be known as “Jonestown.” The dead were all members of a group known as “The People’s Temple” which was led by the Reverend Jim Jones. It would soon be learned that 913 of the 1100 people believed to have been at “Jonestown” at the time, had died in a mass suicide."

Human nature is interesting, why is it so easy to believe that a mass of people would consciously and with good mental health, commit suicide with their children, family and loved ones, but then suggest that it's impossible for a mass of people to engage in mass hallucination.

Hallucinate: "A false or mistaken idea; a delusion."

Marc, do you believe the Jonestown massacre and the families who committed mass suicide were following a "false" or "mistaken" idea, or... well... please elaborate on how you believe mass groups of people can't be deluded, and follow that train of thought right on into Nazi Germany while you are at it.

Hi WM, sorry, but nothing debunking about those links. Nothing even worth addressing.

Hi Rick, you said: “So I ask you, are you seriously comparing a natural phenomena of a mere 100,000 people to the great incident of the Allah Melon or the Allah Fish as witnessed by millions all over the world?”

There is nothing supernatural about the melon or fish.

Hi Dave8,

There is nothing supernatural about mass suicide or the power of propaganda in Nazi Germany. Man is definitely capable of convincing himself, along with a mass of others, to believe just about anything. Atheism would be a case and point. But, he cannot cause mass supernatural manifestations.

I’m sorry guys but the arguments your present do not carry any weight. You are comparing apples with oranges. With the Fatima miracle of the sun, we’re talking about a supernatural manifestation witnessed by believers and non-believers.

If these are your arguments to disbelieve a divine intervention, I hope that you can be honest with yourselves enough to see the logical fallacies with your “reasons” to disbelieve.

Take care,
Marc

Unblinded : There is nothing supernatural about the melon or fish.

So you say ... but all across the world other people are finding these things as proof of divinity. What proof do you have that they are not?

Hi Rick, you said "So you say ... but all across the world other people are finding these things as proof of divinity. What proof do you have that they are not?"

How about common sense? If God really wanted to talk to us yet remain hidden to sustain our true free will, I think he'd at least give us something of substance.

Despite what He did just over 2000 years ago, He continues to reveal Himself today. I believe He gave us something of substance in Fatima and at Garabandal.

Just like He did 2000 years ago, God always uses the supernatural to testify to the authenticity.

The Allah fish and melon can be explained naturally and they come with no message of any value. In fact, my wife seems to have a knack at pointing out, apparently designed, shapes from clouds. I'm sure if we cut a few thousands melons we'd find something interesting too.

Take care,
Marc

Another Marcian miracle!

"As she gazes up at the serene face (on the statue), Mother Superior Marion Zeltmann swears she can detect a smile on the Virgin Mary." -- LINK


And if that doesn't make you at true Marcianite, then you might want to read "Madonna of the Toast"

Remember, Mary loves you more than you can possibly ever comprehend, but if you REFUSE to snuggle up with her son -- WATCH OUT!

Hi WM, for the sake of clarifying your sarcasm:

- your 1st link is simply an article titled "Stolen Virgin Mary crown replaced with a new one" with absolutely no miracle claims what-so-ever.

- your 2nd link is nothing but a link to purchase a book full of "Allah in the melon"-like pictures.

Your post WM, only attempts to deflect away from the truth by trivializing the Fatima miracle and attempting to smear God's name.

For the record, you don't have to snuggle up to Jesus, just believe what He says about you and about Himself. You're a sinner, He's the son of God. If you truly believe, then you'll have no problems truly endeavoring to live like Him.

Peace,
Marc

Unblinded : "How about common sense? If God really wanted to talk to us yet remain hidden to sustain our true free will, I think he'd at least give us something of substance."

And yet there are many places in the bible where god appeared before people to prove his existence, yet that didn't seem to affect their free will. Also, can you show me in the bible where it does say that god does not appear before people in order to protect their free will? This is exactly what people talk about when religious people claim to know things about god, but have absolutely no proof or source in which to show where they got that information.

Just like He did 2000 years ago, God always uses the supernatural to testify to the authenticity.

I think it more likely that people use the supernatural to explain god because then it frees them from the responsibility of providing proof. Wouldn't that be a more common sense answer?

I can't validate or explain the Miracle of the sun, I wasn't there, and I certainly cannot accept the explanations given by people who were still learning the basics of the steam engine and who's knowledge of meteorology and cosmology were in its infancy.

Truly if god wanted to provide proof of his existence or his desires then he would do so to me on a personal level. Before insulting me and suggesting that I never tried to find god, let me assure you that I, as well as nearly everyone on this site have been in your shoes before and fervently believed and sought the pathways to god. Eventually we realized how irrational, illogical, unsupported, mythological, and delusional a belief in Christianity is.

You make claims of common sense in order to differentiate between one example over another, yet you fail to use that common sense to critically examine everything else just as equally. I just find it ironic when a believer uses the words "common sense" because religion is anything but. You have an assumption and try to force everything into fitting that assumption rather than examining things and drawing your conclusions based on what you found.

And just to make the record clear, I do not believe there is anything special about the "allah" fish and melon. I was merely using them as an example to highlight an apparent bit of compartmentalized thinking on your part.

More on the BLESSED HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!!


WOO..oooooooo!!! Praise Mary! Praise Mary!

PRAISE MARY and her God spawn!

UnBlinded wrote:

If God really wanted to talk to us yet remain hidden to sustain our true free will, I think he'd at least give us something of substance.

If god remains hidden how do you know he's the one talking to us? You are trapped in a contradiction - you have to "know" that it is god who is talking to us, therefore any communication from god takes away our free will.

Hi Rick, you said "can you show me in the bible where it does say that god does not appear before people in order to protect their free will?"

The truth is I really have no idea exactly why God doesn't appear before people. My assumption is that a definitive proof would no longer really make all of us free to love Him freely. What does it matter, He's about love, He's about righteousness, He's about justice and thank God!!!, He's about mercy. Are there any of these qualities that wouldn't appeal to a human that desires goodness? No.

So, He decides to reveal himself through supernatural means back in 1917. That's His choice, I know I love Him and all that He's about. Why should I start judging Him on how He reveals Himself. Shouldn't I trust that He has a good reason for it? He made me, how dare I question His reasons. I need to endeavor to be obedient to Him, He knows best and what He wants of us....is the very best for us!

What I do know, is that what happened in 1917 is confirmed and conclusive. There are still living witnesses, there are books on testimonies and there were both believers & non-believers that testified to the same thing.
In a nutshell:
- They were drenched wet and after the miracle, the ground and themselves, were completely dry.
- They saw the sun do bizarre things.
- They all reacted in shock by what appeared to be the sun crashing to earth.
- They saw various colors of light on them and the ground.
- The miracle was predicted 3 times in advance by messages given to the children.
- The children were kidnaped and had their lives threatened to reveal the secret, yet they would not relent.

You said: "I certainly cannot accept the explanations given by people who were still learning the basics of the steam engine and who's knowledge of meteorology and cosmology were in its infancy."

And there you have it. Apparently, the steam engine is such a simple mechanism, you thought it up when you were 6 years old, playing with legos. You'll have to pardon my sarcasm but I find your arrogance over people of just 100 years ago, astounding. Isaac Newton was born in 1642, the Wright brothers discovered flight around 1900, Albert Einstein published the Theory of Relativity in 1905, etc....

These people knew what the sun should look like, they weren't 70,000 bumbling idiots.

You said: "And just to make the record clear, I do not believe there is anything special about the "allah" fish and melon."

I never thought you did, I was merely trying to point out the logical fallacies in using these occurrences to argue against what may very well be the greatest miracle since the resurrection.

Take care,
Marc

Unblinded : "The truth is I really have no idea exactly why God doesn't appear before people. My assumption is that a definitive proof would no longer really make all of us free to love Him freely."

Your logic doesn't make sense. That whole "interfere with free will" has some serious flaws in it. If you had a question about your wife/husband and their fidelity, then going by the whole "definitive proof" thing you are saying that once you question them then your love is forfeit. Does that really make sense to you? Do you honestly believe that? Or if your child questions you or doubts your word on something then their love for you is immediately shown as false? Simply looking at the bible you see many instances of god showing himself to people to prove his existence, are you saying that those people lost their free will because of that? I'm not really asking you for an answer on this because you did admit that you have no clue - just asking that you consider this logic.

The entire concept of an omniscient god calls into question the idea of free will anyway - if he knows all and created all then he created all to be exactly like he planned. Tough to have free will if an omniscient god has a plan ... the only possible way for this to work is to admit that god is not omniscient ... but you and I know believers would never do that.

But back to the point. People all over the world have different gods. Perhaps they call them the same or base them off the some earlier versions of other religions, but since their concept or understanding of that god differs, then in essence they worship different gods. The majority of people worship the god that they were culturally born into. Their entire lives are spent being indoctrinated into their specific family/cultural religion. Is it no wonder that they would resist the teachings or beliefs of other religions? THEY have been told the RIGHT story all their lives. What makes YOUR story better than theirs? To say that god revealing himself jeopardizes their free will is simply ludicrous. If there truly is a god then his silence is more jeopardizing to these people. They WANT to worship god. They BELIEVE in god. Many EARNESTLY follow the belief system they have taught because they truly have a desire to worship their creator. But his silence damns them for they will never find the correct path.

There is no issue of free will here. THEY WANT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW. God merely needs to reveal himself and show who he truly is. This is like telling your child to light a bonfire for a cookout. When you see him pouring 5 gallons of gasoline on the fire you fail to step up and say "HEY! That isn't the right way! You'll get blow up doing it that way!" You stay silent because you don't want to jeopardize their free will? That is insane!

Unblinded : What does it matter, He's about love, He's about righteousness, He's about justice and thank God!!!, He's about mercy.

I respectively disagree. I'm thinking you cherry pick the bible. God is bloodthirsty and uncaring of individuals. At best you can say he has some plan that may includes humanity in his long term goals, but to say that he is about love, righteousness and justice is simply counter intuitive to the name you've taken here. Ironically about the only religious group that I've seen come close to representing god as he is depicted in the bible is the Westboro Baptist church wackos.

An interesting link here describes how many people god has killed vs how many people Satan has killed.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/3582
In the case of Job when he was tested for his faith, god had no qualms when he allowed Satan to kill off his family (seven sons and three daughters) and when Job is proven to be righteous he gladly replaces them. But tell me, would you ever blithely accept a new family to replace your own that were killed off simply to satisfy a bet between god and Satan?

It's easy to simply apply the positive attributes that you would WANT in a god, but you have to face reality when you look in the source and find out that they simply are not true. At best you could say that god is like an abusive father. He picks a few favorites, but even they get slapped down if they don't perform to standards (as Moses experienced when he struck the rock incorrectly).

Unblinded : Are there any of these qualities that wouldn't appeal to a human that desires goodness? No.

THATS THE POINT! Even you must agree that one of the tenants of religion is to make people afraid. Perhaps you will 'prettify' the message and say 'be afraid of going to hell' but the main theme is the same. Religion deals in fear. But in order for religion to work it must counterbalance that fear with a promise of good things. The rub being that those promises don't have to be kept while people are alive and dead people don't complain.

Unblinded : Why should I start judging Him on how He reveals Himself. Shouldn't I trust that He has a good reason for it? He made me, how dare I question His reasons.

After saying that how can you dare call yourself "unblinded"?! You stand before everyone and make the claims that what you believe is correct. You make the claim that your version of god is right and that we are all blind and wrong for not believing, yet you cannot provide anything better than vague and hotly debated incident as proof. You simply "trust". There has been quite a few sources posted here alone that challenge or contradict "The miracle of the sun", not to mention all the contradiction/support that can be found on the web. Again, this simply boils down to what people choose to believe. You CHOOSE to believe it because it validates your faith. I choose NOT to believe it because it does not live up to acceptable levels of proof. There is simply too much left to question.

The most widely-cited descriptions of the events reported at Fatima are taken from the writings of John De Marchi, an Italian Catholic priest and researcher. Can you not understand how anyone outside the bindings of religion would immediately view such fantastical claims as being biased? To simply accept an amalgam of events from the viewpoints of people who's ignorance would make them susceptible to supernatural beliefs is unacceptable to me. Seriously try and consider this from the outside perspective. If god did them the favor of showing proof, why doesn't he do it for all? I just don't see how you can look at this and come to terms with the idea of a hidden god protecting free will who is constantly showing himself.

Unblinded : I find your arrogance over people of just 100 years ago, astounding. Isaac Newton was born in 1642, the Wright brothers discovered flight around 1900, Albert Einstein published the Theory of Relativity in 1905, etc

Are you going to tell me that you would trust that technology with your life today? You would trust the diagnosis of a phrenologists on criminals to determine their psychology? You believe that we could ever get anything into space with a belief in an ether filling space? You believe that the Wright brothers already perfected their technology and you'd fly something they built, or let your children cruise around with them as they tested their models? Are you telling me that should you develop sickness or injury that you would feel completely safe and secure in a 1900 era hospital (penicillin wasn't invented until 1928)? Perhaps you think the chances of a successful child birth in the 1900's would be more likely? Maybe we should all wise up and begin to follow the standards of pollution prevention as outlined around that time - oh yeah, they didn't have any to speak of. Maybe you want to be a black person living in a southern state back then? American civil rights were quite interesting in the 1900's.

Are you catching MY sarcasm yet? Times will always change, and they are changing faster now than ever. In 100 years we have gone from that first Wright Brothers flight all the way to putting robotic explorers on Mars as well as landing probes on other planets/moons/comets/asteroids. Not too bad considering that there was a 2000 year gap between the time mankind first began to harvest crops and domestication of cattle. The point being that things were VERY different 100 years ago and to blindly accept what people of the time saw as miraculous is simply shortsighted. Imagine a comet atmosphere skipping off the earth as it came from the direction of the sun after a an opposite system approach - how do you think people would react to that? Everything is fine and then suddenly the sun would seem to do some crazy things as it appeared to come right at them!

As for what people saw at Cova de Iria? Who knows? Again, i wasn't there. But I can think of several possible things that people could have seen that with their ignorance would immediately attribute to the supernatural. People still do that today with the images of Jesus or Mary in toast and water stains! It's called pareidolia. The human brain is designed (not Intelligently designed, but DNA designed) to find patterns in the chaos. What happened that day? I don't know. Does that destroy my ability to question your claims that something divine happened? No. There is nothing wrong with claiming you don't know. There is something wrong with taking something you don't understand and simply labeling it as "divine".

Anyway, this is long enough now. Frankly the whole concept of a god that stays hidden to preserve free will is illogical enough, but then you go and throw in these stories where god does apparently show himself and once again you show religion contracting itself. You want to take it on faith, that's your choice. It certainly is by no means proven. There is ample question of what happened that day. I personally think you accept it as such with no question because it reinforces your belief system, which is typical of most people of religion. Why bother to look for an answer when you can just chalk it up to god and move on? Sorry, I'm not that shortsighted or blind.

Perhaps you should change your name to "Blinded by his Glory"? Sorry for the parting shot, but I simply cannot come to terms with the argument you are making when you take the name "Unblinded". Unless you were shooting for the oxymoron?

-Rick

I wanted to add at the point where Unblinded says

"Are there any of these qualities that wouldn't appeal to a human that desires goodness? No"

That people put the good HUMAN qualities on god because it makes them feel better about their god. A god should be bigger than humans and be something that is beyond them - that's what makes it a god! ALL Knowing, ALL Loving, FAIR Judgement, etc etc. It is obvious that people are going to cherry pick their favorite characteristics and attribute them to their god so for you to claim that those attributes are part of your belief is not only expected, but further proof that god has been anthropomorphized.

** I got distracted in that point of my response and did not finish my thought.

Rick, would you please contact me?

You can do so by clicking here.

Thanks.

Marc, the Unblinded, said: Hi Jim,
“About that "god" of yours... any evidence for her yet?”
Sure do Jim, here it is again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

Marc, the Unblinded, said: What I do know, is that what happened in 1917 is confirmed and conclusive. (Emphasis added)

Marc, the Unblinded, said: My assumption is that a definitive proof would no longer really make all of us free to love [God] freely.

You have my applause and congratulations, Marc! Without help from a single non-believer, you've just presented an amazing argument that we're not free to love God freely.

As per usual, you don't need to do is listen to a Believer for long before they start verbally socking themselves in the face.

fjell

Marc, you neglected to mention Garabandal and that really impressive example of stigmata that you pointed us to earlier. You still regard those as clear examples of supernatural influence, no matter what the Catholic church says, right? As others have already pointed out, the so-called "miracle of the sun" is dubious for a number of reasons, chiefly because the bulk of what has been "reported" has passed through the filter of one believer. Information gathered from thousands of witnesses is no stronger than the smallest bottleneck through which that information passes. (Paul's fleeting reference to "500 brethren" is another example of such a bottleneck.) But what I would really like to see, Marc, is objectively recorded accounts of the "predictions" made they those children at the time they were made, not a recounting of them after the fact. I would also like to know how these predictions by three young children were sufficient motive for 70,000 people to assemble in anticipation of the events. Let's see what you can dig up on this. (I don't suppose you ever ask yourself questions of this nature, do you?)

By the way, I'd like your honest opinion on something. Please check out this, this, this, and this. They are all posts on YouTube that you may find interesting. I'd like to hear your initial thoughts.

Speaking of this Sun Miracle junk, I checked this out (thanks jim):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlPHHl0AjZk&mode=related&search=

I had the sun appear as a black dot, too, once when using my digital camera at the beach. This is no miracle at all, as it is just a technological glitch which has to do with the CCD imaging sensor in the camera being overloaded.

http://digg.com/videos/educational/Miracle_of_the_sun_caught_on_video

Shit, there's a lot of stupid people out there! Ha! Some miracle!! -Wes.

Jim, interesting links. In every single one I thought the people would start laughing at the end and let everyone watching in on their joke. Imagine my surprise when I realized that these people were trying to pass this off as serious!

The black dot is a feature of some camera models that block out high light levels in order to protect sensitive electronics. As for the flickering sun, it amazes me that anyone would take that seriously - but obviously they do. People see what they want to see, especially if it plays into their idea of what is supernatural.

First off, let me start by saying, please lay off the stigmata link, I already explained myself on that one. It's possible, but there's no way to prove it...so, please, let's give the smear tactics a break shall we. Garabandal is definitely a much more recent miracle that has comparible credibility as Fatima. The proof is in it's living witnesses and the video recordings.

What are my initial thoughts on the YouTube links you provided? Probably just as shocked as the rest of you on the credulity of these people. They want so badly to believe that it appears that they don't apply any critical thinking to what they "witness". I'm saying this, based on the videos presented. It is still possible that these people actually saw something supernatural. Do I believe it based on that evidence, no chance.

The Fatima miracle of the sun is in another class, we're talking about 70,000 people. It is well documented and by reliable sources. It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory. Neither was it a case of mass hallucionation as it was seen up to 30 km away by people going about their normal duties unconcious of what was happening at Fatima.

In my opinion, there's no doubt about the prediction....the 70,000 people gathered together is the proof.

Here are some links below. Read all 4, if the link from www.anatheist.com is the only one that honestly rings true for you, there's your "winner".

Take care,
Marc

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm
http://www.overcomeproblems.com/fatima.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-miracle-of-the-sun
http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/fatima3.html

....just as shocked as the rest of you on the credulity of these people. They want so badly to believe that it appears that they don't apply any critical thinking to what they "witness".

Side splitter! lol

Well, it appears Marc is right! There was something extraordinary going on in Fatima,

Here it is: Blessed Virgin Mary Sightings Similar to UFOs

Seriously, Wikipedia has a good well-rounded article on this nonsense: Click here to read.

UnBlinded wrote:
"...At the following link, you’ll find the sentence `I loathe paganism.'. These are messages being given to Vasa Deferensa from Jesus..."

No doubt this is more Garabandal stuff. (If it's not, then my bad. If the day ever comes that sees me motivated enough to check it, I'll just be able to get my pet flying pig to do it for me anyhow...)

Now, would this be the same miracle that you once said you'd be ready to abandon if Herr Ratzinger declared it to be anathema?

Melissa, I liked most of your longish post, and just thought I'd comment on the "Nicole is hot" criticism. I don't really have a problem with the original quote. Nicole is hot. She's super good looking, but we've all known ultra-babes who start looking worse and worse by the minute as we discover that they've got nothing on the ball. Nicole, by contrast, has got it all. Brains, musical talent, athletic ability, self-reliance, etc. All stuff that she's developed in herself, by herself. Also, the word "hot", these days, doesn't mean exactly the same thing that it meant to the parent generation. Similar, but not exactly similar, and the shift in nuance/connotation is enough to be significant. I'd say that the original poster intended it in the sense of what in another time might have been called "a good catch", someone you'd like to have in your personal circle. Maybe I'm wrong on that one, though.