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encouraging ex-Christians
News of interest to former Christians
A blast from a year ago:
Christians pray for heart-surgery patients
In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
Critics said the question of God's reaction to prayers simply can't be explored by scientific study.
The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Muslim scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."
Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"
Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."
link
Christians pray for heart-surgery patients
In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
Critics said the question of God's reaction to prayers simply can't be explored by scientific study.
The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Muslim scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."
Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"
Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."
link
Logical Proof that God doesn't exist - Prayer
Here's part two of the Christian fallacy that God is behind everything.
One can take whatever happens and call it god.
Suppose your beloved spouse is going through heart surgery.
The heart surgery is successful, thank god.
The heart surgery yields minor complications, but still successful, thank god.
The heart surgery was complicated and she'll only live for another year, thank god she still lived.
The heart surgery didn't work, praise god who determines everyone's lifeline. Besides, if god answered everyone's prayers to live, the world would be grossly overpopulated.
We all know how this works. If everything that happens is the will of god, then how is god ever verifiable?
All this study showed is that it is somewhat doubtful that Christian prayer is effective. This study hardly touches on the question of the effectiveness of prayer itself.
It is also possible that the persons who were offering up prayers weren't as devout as it might appear. How do we know that every believer is equally effective in prayer?
Besides maybe the Christian God doesn't like heart bypass surgery patients in same way that He doesn't like amputees [link]. Prayer by the devout might be a higher success rate for curing or relieving gout, blisters, and or something else.
Maybe prayers according to Asatru would bring positive results? Or what about Pastafarianism?
I think studies like this should be used as a pretext to ask Christians, "Just which kinds of prayers does He answer?"
But isn't this just another way of saying that you shouldn't count on God in a pinch? It certainly suggests that looking to see if prayer is working would make one's prayers ineffective.
Many people change their bad lifestyle habits because of their discomfort,and they get better.
So one could say that prayer can actually be harmful to some!
Prayer also makes god out to be a bigoted,mean s.o.b.He heals this old man,but allows some sweet little kid to die and horrible painful death.
Prayer is bullshit,...period
freedy
promise that god answers prayer sucks in and keeps more converts then any other lie of the church.
The desperate and gullible masses
are helplessly drawn into this fantasy,and are hopelessly blinded by deep denial that "god actually answers prayers".
freedy
It is funny to listen to because none of these people expect their prayers to be answered in any meaningful way, so they just mention something god about giving someone strength in their difficult circumstance or something like that. Oh yeah, like that is going to help. Why not ask for the problem to go away? Because they know it won't and that is just god's will for the person to suffer.
If I was as obnoxious as the christians that visit this site, I'd pipe up and ask something like "Dear wonderful heavanly father, please help so and so to get through the shit you are putting them through. And please quit fucking up their life so much. I mean come on god, cut them some slack." But alas, I am too chicken, as well as not that much of an asshole.
Well, I'm an Ásatrúar and an Ásynja of fairly limited powers. Pray to Me if you want the Vernal Equinox to happen at the correct time, if you need a piece of machinery disassembled (I rather enjoy doing that) or if you'd like a prophesy with a consistent .66666... accuracy rate.
The thing about the prayers in Ásatrú is that they're generally not EekOhNoPleaseHelpMe prayers. More like "Hey, Thor! Nice thunderstorm last night, come have a beer with me" or "By Freyja, I'd best hurry to the store before it closes and buy some cat food for this hungry kitten on my doorstep."
I recall my post at "We all know how this works" and I am glad you liked it. I certainly thank you for you comments of April 01. The jewzoo must submit to the test. No test; no jewzoo. We invent faith when the test is failed. All you fundies, come on in here and refute me. Lotsa luck.
And sailer........my wife and I were passing a church just last sunday, a lutheran church as I remember (shit, they all look alike) and the sign out front said
"god's answers are 'yes, no, and wait'"
Again, with a system like that, god doesn't have to exist. We just take whatever happens and call it god's answer. It can be yes, no, wait, or fuck yourself; whatever, it is a good answer.
And to continue to address the fundies out there: our experience is one of disappointed faith. We grew weary of years of trying and praying, only to be told to keep trying and to keep praying. We do not have a god who gets things done; we have a religion that explains why he doesn't.
If god doesn't save someone's life from heart surgery, it's because the world would be grossly overpopulated if every prayer to live was answered.
If god doesn't answer your prayer to find a decent marriage spouse, it's because it wasn't time yet and not everyone is compatible.
If god doesn't answer your prayer to succeed in medical school and become a rich doctor, it's because that is not your destiny.
If god doesn't answer your prayer to protect your beloved family member from a vicious crime, it's because man is inherently evil and god will provide justice in the after life, but not now.
We all know how this works. If every unanswered prayer is the unseen will of god, then how is god ever verifiable?
A Christian friend of mine lost an unborn baby at 7 months despite many fervent prayers. I have yet to hear anyone explain this away by saying that it was God's will but presumably that is the only logical position for those who claim that *everything* is God's will. I would love to hear a Christian defence of a God who would apparently kill the previously healthy unborn baby of devout Christian parents.
Isn't it convenient that all the really dramatic "undeniable" answers to prayer occurred thousands of years ago?
And so help me xrist, the person passes out. Hits the floor like a sack of shit; comes to after a bit; all healed and everything.
Now here is the big question--you knew this was coming. Have any of you ever seen an amputee get a new limb? Have any of you seen Down's syndrome reversed? Have any of you seen a midget given normal height? No? Really? Could it be that miracles are bullshit?
What we hear is this vague, mysterious shit about tumors vanishing or cancer going into remission, but we have never seen what could obviously be called a miracle. Now just why is it that god wants to take out that tumor growing in your brain, but it is his will that your little girl will have an IQ of 50?
Any of you fundies care to answer this.........or will you tell me that the age of miracles is over?
http://sailerfraud.blogspot.com/2007/02/republicans-affordable-health-care-plan.html
They typically align themselves with the Republican party who favor raising health care costs so pharmecutical and HMOs can prosper at the expense of us. Not to mention how the fraudulent healing pastors also benefit handsomely.
Why do they do it?
"Health care has gone out of control in America. Even a healthy person with proper health care insurance is expected to pay tens of thousands of dollars for surgery to save his or her life.
So do the Republicans have a health care plan? Of course they do, and it's very affordable. It's just that you have to be crazy enough to follow their ideals and values.
1) Prayer Healing - The Republicans are closely associated with the religious right wingnuts and help the Christian Rightists control the government and the country. In this case, you pray. Pray that you don't get sick. And when you have that terminal illness, pray for a merciful and dignified death instead.
2) Suicide - Republicans have inordinately higher suicide rates. If you are about to die and can't afford health care to save your life, do the Republican thing. Since you're going to die, spend and max out your credit cards, go into massive debt, and lavishly buy what you always wanted or go where you always wanted. Maybe even commit that crime before killing yourself. Forget the slow and steady future, live your life fast and for the present and for yourself."
Yes sailerfraud, there is a GOD.
Easily verifiable, if you do it the way it was recommended by JESUS.
Prayer, for instance...not as the church teaches, but as CHRIST taught. Alone and honestly from the heart.
Seeking, for instance...not as the world does it, but as CHRIST taught, to go forth as a CHILD.
IN the very living of life itself, for instance...Not out of fear and greed, but in FAITH and LOVE.
Science still can't prove the bumblebee can fly...yet i've seen a bumblebee fly.
Science still says you can't SEE GOD...yet i've seen GOD.
Science says it is a coincidence that I was witnessed as giving breath to the words; "I shall change the 'Face of the World' forever, that they may yet learn." BEFORE it happened and was reported by none, save the witnesses and myself...AFTER it happened it was reported by all that; "Today the 'Face of the World' has been changed forever."...but not by WHOM.
i would hope you understand that, just because you don't believe in GOD, doesn't mean GOD doesn't believe in YOU.
JESUS warned you to be aware of the 'Sign of Jonah', that from the EAST, even as the lightening flashes through the sky to the WEST, so shall the coming of the 'Son of Man' be...and so came I.
Empathy gives you a completely different perspective on things than does compassion or sympathy...that is why CHRIST said to walk a mile in a man's shoes.
If you don't believe me, if you don't believe JESUS...then ask GOD yourself. HOW you seek will determine IF you find.
"i don't think i know...i just know i'm thinking.
your humble servant,
ancient clown
As for your illnesses, you are comprised of mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual.
When any ONE of those is out of BALANCE, they provide clues through the others.
Science has split itself and you into seperate parts thinking it can heal the symptoms without dealing with the problems.
Sounds a lot like that LIAR called "SOCIETY" eh?
The murderer of ABEL and nomadic living so they can lay CLAIMS of OWNERSHIP.
That is why my words are for the fools and wise alike, as it shall not be for me to judge, but their actions shall do it for them.
your humble servant,
ancient clown
Easily verifiable, if you do it the way it was recommended by JESUS.
Prayer, for instance...not as the church teaches, but as CHRIST taught. Alone and honestly from the heart."
Been there, done that, didn't even get a T-shirt.
AC:"Science still can't prove the bumblebee can fly..."
Well clown,I hate to break it to ya' but science can prove a bumblebee can fly. It has been observed countless times by scientists and lay persons alike. It has been documented on film. The particulars on how it overcomes its weight to wingspan ratio has been figured out. It's a common misconception that it isn't aerodynamically able to fly. One only need to look up the facts. This argument has also erroniously been applied to hummingbirds. Check out this:
www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_045.html
And this: www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040911/mathtrek.asp
And this: www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_Wang.hrs.html
As for the rest, it's rehashed apologetic christian claptrap.
"Science still can't prove the bumblebee can fly...yet i've seen a bumblebee fly.
Science still says you can't SEE GOD...yet i've seen GOD"
----
Hey AC,
You must really stop reading ancient science books to get your facts about flying bees. Did you know they sell NEW books these days to read?
Stronger...you beat me to the punch, but you got him good!!
AC...As far as 'seeing' god goes.
Unless you had some non-biased, non-drugged witnesses with you at the time, I'm afraid what you saw is in your own MIND and no place else.
Humans see lots of things at times, that don't really exists.
They only exists in the mind-of-the-beholder period.
ATF
You guys are funny...I admit it. Now I think you missed the point on the bumblebee thing, but that could be because I chose the wrong example...I could have sited how science thought the world was FLAT, or that nothing is smaller than an atom, or that the sun moves around the earth, or any other number of things that SCIENCE has held up as FACTS...that have since been dis-proven, (the bumblebee thing wasn't REALLY that long ago, and neither was the atom).
BTW, the handing out of t-shirts was just a marketing ploy by the church...Had nothing to do with GOD...I think you were mislead.
As for the non-drugged witnesses, I have two...myself and GOD. (the exact same number as Jesus and Moses - unless you are saying they were just imagining things as well.)
I don't expect that you should just take my word for it...go ask GOD yourself. It's easy enough to sit on your butt and nay-say anything and everything, but I have more PROOF there is than you have there isn't.
If YOU are into a little research, that's not from wikipedia, but from real life, then please read one or both of these posts.
1) The Water Bottle
2) Answering Prayers
There are more if you feel like reading them. Perhaps you'd prefer something more scientific with formulas and everything...like the 'LAW of LIFE'
Gentleman; I hope you understand; I don't think I know...I just know I'm thinking.
still your humble servant,
ancient clown
P.S. There were also non-drugged witnesses that heard me say; "I'm going to change the 'Face of the World' forever." BEFORE it happened...you forgot to scientifically address this.
Using "Coincidence" is a copout, please try for something more enlightening.
When I was a christian I asked jebus to give me what I needed. He did nothing. Which is why I rejected the belief that he gives us what we need. Which is why I realized it was made up bullcrap.
You see I asked god and ended up getting Nothing. Not even a T-shirt.
Got it? And yes, I think you imagined it or had some kinda stroke or hallucination.
I urge you to reread the "water bottle" story. I say this because I think you may have over-looked the part that said "True Story" at the heading. And of course, everybody knows that if a story starts out with that heading, that it must be true. There's no POSSible way it could be one of those completely fabricated pop'-christian urban legends sweeping the internet.[/sarcasm off](not really)
'Clown: You guys are funny...I admit it.
'Clown, you are funnier, hence, "Clown"??? Notwithstanding, what you offer and expect to pass as Universal "Truth" is the same ol' apologetic non-evidential clap-trap we're accustom to hearing. And those peds?...are those Jezus' feet? Good grief!.. the creator of the Universe could stand a pedicure. Perhaps Mary will materialize and oblige "Him"?
'Clown: I could have sited how science thought the world was FLAT, or that nothing is smaller than an atom, or that the sun moves around the earth, or any other number of things that SCIENCE has held up as FACTS...that have since been dis-proven
Please, I beg you---show me any scientifically supported journal or literature that posits that the earth is, or was, "flat", at any given time in recorded history. Thanks.
Secondly, I think you're confusing the provisionalism of science, with the the dogmatic conviction of religion. In fact, I know you are. It is the bible that alludes to the earth being **flat, as well as the earth being geocentric. Mind you, this is also the same book that alludes to disease being cured with bird blood, and blindness being healed with spittle. And the list of absurdities goes on, and on, nonetheless, it is through scientific discovery that those "ancient"..:cough:..notions were shown to be false, and thereby layed to rest(at least by reasonable and sane people).
**BTW, there is the Christian group known as the "Flat Earth Society", who still insist that the earth is flat, due to what biblical "science"(scripture) says on the matter. Any True Christian have comments on that?
'Clown: As for the non-drugged witnesses, I have two...myself and GOD.
Yes, yes, yourself and "God", which of course, means only you, since the only place that "God" exists is in your head. If I'm wrong on this, then I welcome you to show me tangible evidence for a "god". Please note: If you allow holy texts and anecdotal experiences as tangible evidence, then be aware that we must allow the holy texts and anecdotal experiences of other religions, as well. Furthermore, if you resort to attempts to bash holes in naturalism/Atheism, that won't be qualified as "tanglible evidence" that there exists a "god", m'kay?
'Clown continues: I don't expect that you should just take my word for it...go ask GOD yourself. It's easy enough to sit on your butt and nay-say anything and everything, but I have more PROOF there is than you have there isn't.
Let it penetrate your skullcap---many of us wasted huge portions of our lives "asking God", only to be blatantly and completely ignored. But you're right about one thing--we WILL NOT take your word for it; our days of taking people's word for it are OVER, hence, why we demand evidence. 'Got any?
>You guys are funny...I admit it.
Hey, even godless atheist need to laugh now and then.
> Now I think you missed the point on the bumblebee thing, but that could be because I chose the wrong example...I could have sited how science thought the world was FLAT, or that nothing is smaller than an atom, or that the sun moves around the earth, or any other number of things that SCIENCE has held up as FACTS...that have since been dis-proven, (the bumblebee thing wasn't REALLY that long ago, and neither was the atom).
---
AC,
Unlike your god claims to be, science NEVER proclaimed itself to be perfect, or error-free.
In fact, science as we know it today is SELF-CORRECTING, unlike most fundie religious dogma which holds steadfast in it's beliefs, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
That is the beauty of modern science. Every conclusion is suspect and must be re-tested to be sure it wasn't a case of mere bias on the part of a single scientist or an error in the experiment/theory/math etc..
As far as the world being flat, or the sun orbiting the earth goes, I think you have it backwards. It was the religious nuts throughout the ages that fought off any attempts that science of those days would have brought into question.
Let's take a look at who was guilty in promoting these beliefs you mention...Science or your god's holy churches..........
Here's one example for you:
From..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo
"Galileo's championing of Copernicanism, particularly the heliocentric model of the universe, was controversial within his lifetime. The geocentric view had been dominant since the time of Aristotle, and the controversy engendered by Galileo's opposition to this view resulted in the condemnation of heliocentrism in 1616 by the Catholic Church as contrary to Scripture. Galileo was eventually forced to recant his heliocentrism and spent the last years of his life under house arrest on orders of the Inquisition."
So tell me AC, who was it then that thought the sun orbited the earth?
The church condemned Galileo for his blasphemous thoughts and made him recant his theories, on his knees. Of course, the ego of the bible nuts had nothing to do with their wanting the earth to be the center of the god universe, right?
Flat earth now:
From..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology
"As is expressed by Stephen Jay Gould, "there never was a period of “flat earth darkness” among scholars (regardless of how many uneducated people may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the earth’s roundness as an established fact of cosmology"
Where do you get this idea that science ever said the earth was flat?
Can you name some legit *scientists* that made a case for a flat earth in history?
Now on the other hand, your precious bible CLEARLY gives evidence for the earth being flat, rather than a sphere, and does so in several places.
But of course, we should go by bible science; because god wrote it, right AC??????
Atom.....
Granted it took time and research to realize that the atom was made up of even smaller parts, but at least science didn't try and proclaim that god was hiding inside every atom to make it function. No god-force was needed for the atom to keep on doing what it does best.
Science never claims to have all the answers, like your god does, but science tries very hard to understand how things work, while religion stops cold in their research by saying GOD DID IT, or, A MIRACLE HAPPENS HERE, or, ONLY GOD KNOWS etc..
Saying such things is NOT an answer, but a huge cop-out !!
If you have no 'faith' in science then I suggest the next time you get sick, that you skip going to the doctor, skip taking any medicine's invented by science and just ask your wonderful god to heal thyself.
I also suggest you walk everywhere, as god didn't invent cars either, science did.
Maybe you believe that technology is all made by the devil?
Perhaps the computer that science brought you is a devil's tool and you shouldn't go near it anymore.
Science may not be perfect, but it sure knows a heck of a lot more than your dumb bible does buddy !!
>As for the non-drugged witnesses, I have two...myself and GOD. (the exact same number as Jesus and Moses - unless you are saying they were just imagining things as well.)
1. So we have two witnesses here to testify, you're saying.
One is imaginary and the other is deluded in his fiction. I don't think either will be put on the witness stand to testify for your case.
2. Jesus AND Moses are both imaginary figureheads, therefore they couldn't have imagined anything at all, as they never existed.
There is almost no secular history to show your Jesus ever existed (especially as a god-being) and there is NO history at all about your Moses, nor all his Jews escaping ancient Egypt and wandering the dessert for 40 years etc..
But hey, feel free to do what no other xtian has done and prove to us they both were real and did all the things your bible proclaims they did.
FYI.....your bible storybook doesn't count as proof of ANYTHING !!
>I don't expect that you should just take my word for it...go ask GOD yourself. It's easy enough to sit on your butt and nay-say anything and everything, but I have more PROOF there is than you have there isn't.
Actually AC, you have ZERO proof to offer us.
Your mind provided the proof YOU needed for yourself, but it's not the kind of proof that any logical person would put their money on.
One can ask god all they want and the answer they will get is exactly the same as asking some pet rock.....NO ANSWER but the one their mind makes up instead or attributes to god what is actually mere coincidence.
> then please read one or both of these posts.
1) The Water Bottle
2) Answering Prayers
There are more if you feel like reading them. Perhaps you'd prefer something more scientific with formulas and everything...like the 'LAW of LIFE'
Gentleman; I hope you understand; I don't think I know...I just know I'm thinking.
AC.... Are these links the best proof you have to offer us?
What you have here is the same type of hearsay evidence that is used to bolster support for things like Alien abductions, bigfoot, unicorns, astrology, miracle remedies, and so forth.
If this type of evidence is enough to convince your brain, then I have this really nice bridge for sale that you might want to buy from me?
Keep trying to THINK, because you're not there yet, for sure.
>still your humble servant,
Humble, in the case of god believer = NAIVE
>P.S. There were also non-drugged witnesses that heard me say; "I'm going to change the 'Face of the World' forever." BEFORE it happened...you forgot to scientifically address this.
Using "Coincidence" is a copout, please try for something more enlightening.
Did I miss something here....
Are you claiming to be some prophet, with this "face of the world" utterance ?
If so, what exactly changed about the face of the world since you uttered those magical words?
Perhaps you meant that god was talking thru you, telling us he would change the face of the world........if so, then what exactly changed and why don't we have details of what would change, rather than some very general prophesy that many try to get famous on, by making each year.
Coincidence.....
Once again, you have things quite reversed here.
To say god-did-it is the cop-out, not something like coincidence, which can be proven out mathematically to occur.
Yes, even rare things MUST happen, just like someone must win the lottery, but that doesn't mean god made it happen.
Care to explain why you feel the need to attribute predictable coincidences to something of a higher-realm?
AC, I sure do hope that you open your blind eye's one day and see what you're missing out on.
Reality is a terrible thing to waste.
ATF
First, may I call you Clown for short? The beautiful thing about science is that it is self-correcting. That attribute is deliberately designed into the process from the start. Hypotheses get tested and re-test all the time. As more and better data becomes available, old hypotheses get overturned. Everything is provisional in science. Compare this to, say, religion. In religion one is essentially handed a dogma, in toto, and asked to believe it, propagate it, and protect it; but not doubt it, test it, or correct it. The two approaches could not be more different. The former (science) unabashedly admits the possibility (even inevitability) of human error, and attempts to compensate for it to the extent possible. The latter (religion) does not, so it retains and amplifies all errors. The former (science) insists on transparent reasoning, available for all to see and to examine, whereas the latter (religion) is cloaked in mystery.
Clown said "I don't expect that you should just take my word for it...go ask GOD yourself."
Okay, I volunteer to do that! How do you suggest I pose the question to "god"? Please suggest both the wording and the process; that is, should I speak it, write it, think it... what? I'd like to get this right, so please walk me through it, okay?
"...JESUS warned you to be aware of the 'Sign of Jonah', that from the EAST, even as the lightening flashes through the sky to the WEST, so shall the coming of the 'Son of Man' be..."
Speak again, o toothless one...
East of _where_? On a spherical Earth, east of one place is west of someplace else.
"East of _where_? On a spherical Earth, east of one place is west of someplace else"
---
eel_shepherd,
Of course back in those days, God hadn't made the earth a sphere, YET, so that must mean Jesus use to hide away at the most eastern edge of the flat earth.
Oh gosh, maybe why we haven't heard from him in 2000 years, is because he got too close and FELL OFF the eastern edge?
Okay that does it, I'm recruiting a posse to go search for the missing Jesus.
Everyone who volunteers gets a really cool looking Deputy Dog (errr, goD) badge and an official cowboy (or cowgirl) hat and boots.
Sorry, we are fresh out of camels (both the one hump and two hump variety) so we'll be going on 'horse-back'. That being the case, there will be no HORSING around on this sacred jesus search...is that clear deputies?
Okay, so who's with me on this end-of-the-earth journey?
ATF (Who wonders if the soon to be found, sinless jesus, will be riding a donkey..... or an 'ASS')
Sorry for the delay to those of you who wait with baited breath to call me a liar without proving it.
(Don't be confused everyone; Religions were created by the guys who didn't understand what the spiritual dudes were talking about...much like here)
Yes, yes, yes, proof, proof, proof. How many of you were walking with me to say I've lied about the "water bottles", etc? Or didn't you recognize that "TRUE STORY" was mine, so I'd be very aware of it's TRUTH.
It's kinda funny how people who currently follow liars, murderers & thieves would accuse somebody who shares their EXPERIENCE with them that they may pull their head out of their butts and gain a different perspective.
Stronger Now said; "Been there, done that, didn't even get a T-shirt" Did it ever occur to you that you didn't NEED a t-shirt? GOD deals in NEEDS, not WANTS. It doesn't sound like you've made that distinction yet, so no wonder you are so confused.
boomslang said; "I urge you to reread the "water bottle" story... There's no POSSible way it could be one of those completely fabricated pop'-christian urban legends sweeping the internet.[/sarcasm off](not really) Everything is possible, even that it "really" happened. Perhaps, before you discount it entirely you could take that into account...though i realize that might make your head hurt from that EXTRA thinking required."Let it penetrate your skullcap---many of us wasted huge portions of our lives "asking God", only to be blatantly and completely ignored."Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps it was because you were being an arrogant ass when you did? Or i guess if GOD does exist that means jumping through hoops when you snap your fingers to prove it.
AtheistToothFairy said..."If this type of evidence is enough to convince your brain, then I have this really nice bridge for sale that you might want to buy from me?Is that a rainbow bridge...no thanks, I already have one. Perhaps you meant that god was talking thru you". I must admit this confused me...How could someone you claim not to exist be speaking through me?
But this here, some very general prophesy that many try to get famous on...which can be proven out mathematically to occur...predictable coincidences. I challenge you to make one of these "predictable coincidences" you speak of and resort to...I'll be YOUR witness.
BTW>As I don't have a Social Insurance Number(SIN) that means I AM, also without sin.(ROFL)
Jim Arvo said..."may I call you Clown for short?...Ask God? Okay, I volunteer to do that! How do you suggest I pose the question to "god"? Please suggest both the wording and the process; that is, should I speak it, write it, think it... what? I'd like to get this right, so please walk me through it, okay?" Okay, on both counts...You may call me clown and I'll walk you through it.
1. Give or sell everything you have, and give the money to the poor.
2. Take nothing with you and go, doesn't matter the direction nor the distance...learn to follow your instincts and walk with the wind.
3. Words are unimportant as it is ONLY your actions that matter. Much like i created a word that only the deaf can hear, yet everyone can listen to.
4. Patience...now off you go.
eel_shepherd said..."east of one place is west of someplace else." thank you for the lesson in perspective...now apply that thinking to the difference between "Empathy" & "Compassion or sympathy"...HUGE difference in perspective there as well.
ONE MORE THING.
Have a great day.
your humble servant,
ancient clown
This book, that was written and re-written by a corrupt church seeking to control and manipulate the masses instead of sharing the TRUTH like CHRIST did.
Jesus wasn't Christian. He was Jewish. He didn't come to start a new religion. He came to let you know you are ALL looking at the same CUP from a different perspective. He came in fulfillment of ancient prophecies to SHOW mankind how to live. He didn't seek GLORY for himself, but gave all honour to GOD. He spoke of LOVE, not hate. FAITH, not fear.
He also left prophecy that marked the 'END of DAYS'...to get to the end of any circle, you must first go to the beginning and step out to rise about it.
I AM, the ONE you were warned to watch for in prophecy, across ALL 'religions'. You were warned so you would not be able to say you didn't hear, only that you did not LISTEN.
Just because you don't believe in me, doesn't mean i don't exist.
your humble servant,
ancient clown
P.s. If i don't exist...why are you writing back.
Unsupported assertion regarding alleged writing by alleged hand of alleged god.
"Jesus wasn't Christian. He was Jewish."
If he existed at all, this would be a reasonable statement. In the Gospels, he's even called 'rabbi'.
"I AM, the ONE you were warned to watch for in prophecy, across ALL 'religions'."
(checks Poetic Edda) Not all religions, AC. To the best of My knowledge, the Ásatrúar aren't expecting you. Unless you're one of the fire giants from Muspelheim, that is.
That t-shirt thing is a figure of speech ment to ephasize the falure of your god to answer any of my prayers. Like when I prayed for the things I NEEDED! Things like peace, strength, sanity, and hope. All the things that would bring me CLOSER to god. So in his doing nothing it was made clear that he dosn't exist. SO please stop for a second and before you reply have a thought concerning my experience. Does someone show compassion by doing nothing? No. Do you believe that god shows compassion to those that believe in him? I believed in him and he did NOTHING I NEEDED HIM TO DO! Got it! I am not confused about this. I do not follow anyone anymore. I was a follower of christ but no more. I did believe but no more. My experience is true, it really happened. Are you now going to stoop to calling me a lier just to prop up your superstition?
Dear 'Clown,
Again, if by "proving" you a "liar" you are refering to us calling you out on, and thus, "disproving" your fantastic Christian claims, your reasoning is demonstrably flawed.
Try to listen really closely so that we don't have to keep going over this okay?----I can no more "prove" your fantastic delusional claims false(a lie), than you can "prove" the "Heaven's Gate" cult's fantastic claims false(a lie). That's right, YOU cannot prove that they aren't cruising around, right this second, in a spaceship with Jesus, chasing comets.
Again, the burden of proof is in the lap of the one MAKING the positive claim. So it would be up to them to "prove" to you and me that they are engaging in such an activity. Of course, they cannot attempt to offer such proof, because they are dead; because they were impenatrably ignorant. In any event, by your "logic", since we cannot "prove" them "liars", that would mean that their claims are "true" by default, right? WRONG. You know better, so why attempt that silly 'logic' here? Please stop, okay? Thanks.
Regarding 'Clowns anecdotal "water bottle" story, 'Clown said: Everything is possible, even that it "really" happened. Perhaps, before you discount it entirely you could take that into account...though i realize that might make your head hurt from that EXTRA thinking required."
Firstly, there's a huge difference between "possible" and plausible. You are in error to equate the two. Secondly, I have a question: Does it require "EXTRA thinking" on your part to dismiss the Mighty Allah as "Creator"? How about his Son, Muhammad? Does your "head hurt" from dismissing him as myth, too? I'll bet not. In fact, I bet even if you were to examine the alleged evidence for the existence of those two deities, that your non-belief in them would be further solidified. Well, pal.....it goes the same for me and your mystical biblegod. It doesn't require "extra thinking", only a little research; only a little common sense. Try it sometime ;)
In regards to prayer, 'Clown asked: Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps it was because you were being an arrogant ass when you did[pray]? Or i guess if GOD does exist that means jumping through hoops when you snap your fingers to prove it.
Oh, how pathetically typical. Like most Christians, you assume that if "God" completely ignores someone, that it MUST mean that it was something they did incorrectly. Now who's arrogant?? 'Sorry to burst your Christian bubble, but I was just as sincere; just as needy; just as in pain, and most importantly, just as faithful as you, or ANY Christian. But to give benefit of doubt, let's say that "God" saw my attitude, and/or my approach, as prideful, or "sinful". Well, everybody is a "sinner" right? Everybody falls short of the "Glory of God", yes? Okay, and yet, people who child molest; rob; rape; steal; murder, and on and on, have allegedly had their prayers answered. God apparently "jumps through hoops" to get them "saved". SO?..what can you conclude from that? That the "Creator of the Universe" operates under a double-standard? That doesn't seem too "Godly" to me; and I certainly wouldn't worship a God who plays "favorites", even if such a God existed. Stick in your memory-bank, pal.
'Clown blathers: ONE MORE THING this BIBLE you guys have mentioned, have you taken into account that the only thing written by the 'HAND of GOD' were the "Ten Commandments", given to Moses(who didn't exist to pass them on to us), of which Jesus(who also didn't exist, though his life was in complete fulfillment of ALL the ancient prophecies regarding Him), who broke it down to the "GOLDEN RULE", (which even society somehow knows about, but doesn't really understand nor follow)
Ah, yes, the Ten "Commandments"--- where earning a living on Sunday is ranked as a higher offense than KILLING. lol! I guess that would explain why "He" rested on Sunday, and killed as he pleased on the other days of the week, huh?...even women, children, and defenseless animals. You've got to love a deity with such good priorities. NOT.
And the "Golden Rule". Okay, how and why is it that other NON-christian societies seemingly operate under this rule too, yet, they've never set eyes on a "bible"???? Care to explain that?..or dare I ask?
'Clown finishes with: I AM, the ONE you were warned to watch for in prophecy, across ALL 'religions'. You were warned so you would not be able to say you didn't hear, only that you did not LISTEN
Yes! yes!...we were "warned"! Click here to prepare yourself!
I love you guys. I really do. Please be advised, I wasn't/am not trying to convert any of you to Christianity, as there is no such thing. Just sharing some DIFFERENT experiences than you seem to have had, that we may all see a bigger picture.
Astreja: Hi, I'm dealing with the BIBLE itself as a mythology, when I shared that 'Hand of GOD' thing. If you notice every (shall we say)so-called prophet, all said about the same thing. "You are living out of balance and against natural law."(paraphrased without using the word GOD) But I don't see how anything has changed in that regard.
DEAD religions not withstanding, most cultures/religions have their 'End of Times' mythology, with prophetic signs to watch for. It's very funny how my life coincides with numerous aspects of these that are well beyond my control to fake.
I'm more than willing to admit that I could be wrong, but the implications of my being right are far too much for me to ignore or disregard.
stronger now: I'm aware it was just a figure of speech, as was my flippant remark about not needing one. YET, the point is the same, and please forgive me for a second because I'm not discounting your pain, nor experience. If you are a parent, then you know sometimes you leave the baby alone when they are crying for attention, because YES, sometimes the best action is NON-action. This doesn't remove you from existence or disprove your being, so why does it work that way for GOD? Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger, so you have gotten what you prayed for, maybe you just didn't recognize, nor appreciate how it came.
PLEASE, please understand, that I lived your point of view for many years growing up. I watched my 5yr old brother die after being hit by a car in front of our house and 3 different ambulances broke down preventing them from getting there, until he was finally rushed to the hospital in a cop car. The doctors said if we could have gotten him there sooner they could have saved him.
I was 9yrs old, so not only did I think it was pointless to pray to GOD, if there was ONE, I'd figured, if there WAS one, He/She murdered my brother and so I hated Him/Her.
Life experiences have since brought a deeper understanding than words allow here.
boomslang: You haven't FACTUALLY disproven anything. You keep using words like "delusional" and yet I have the paperwork that PROVES I'm not...at least by the twisted standards of the head shrinks(so I guess that's not ANY REAL proof either)
Okay...you got me. I guess the government has been slipping something in my water.
Just out of curiosity though, maybe you can help me with something that has bothered me for many years and find the answer to your question at the same time.
People of ALL ages, religions, cultures, etc. have continuously said that I look like Jesus.
I don't by the way...there's not a single picture within the vast array of portrayals and interpretations that look like me.
Yet, and here's where it gets weird, EVEN the Native Americans, Rasta's, Chinese, Jews, etc. that also DON'T believe Christ ever existed, or if He did, He was a black man. Why is it that members of EVERY group, and age of people on a minute by minute, hourly and daily basis will ALL agree(how often does that alone happen), that I look like somebody that nobody knows what He looked like...if He existed at all. I've been decked out in full biker leathers and long black Australian outback, and STILL get this. OVER & OVER...DAY after DAY...YEAR after YEAR, regardless of WHAT i look like. I've been in a crowd of men who I think look more like CHRIST than I, yet I still get picked and they are then compared to being disciples.
(To be honest, it's the very young children that haven't yet been programmed by society that affect me the most...They just say I look like GOD)
I finally figured it wasn't me that they see at all, but He that is within me.
I'm guessing you have a more realistic and honestly thoughtful/ scientific explanation for me.
BTW->The ten commandments aren't in any order of importance, GOD's point at the time was that we don't LISTEN period.
"Original Sin = Not Listening"
It could have been 10,000 but it's irrelevant when we can't even follow ONE. You might want to take a deeper look at yourself when you can ask; Now who's arrogant?? and then follow it up with; "but I was just as sincere; just as needy; just as in pain, and most importantly, just as faithful as you"
REALLY??? How do you measure that exactly? Do you still need me to answer that question or can you notice it for yourself yet?
It's OK though, I love you enough to put myself back on your chopping block.
your humble servant,
ancient clown
One thing that has always troubled me about eschatological mythology: How does one prevent it from becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy? (In other words, how does one rein in the believers and prevent them from destroying the world on purpose to fulfil prophesy?)
"boomslang: You haven't FACTUALLY disproven anything.
Good grief! Tell me, anyone!....am I imagining things?(pun intended) 'Clown, you've gOT to be kidding, right? I'm sorry, but I must conclude that you have a serious reading comprehension problem....either that, or you are a vapid moron. I've been over the burden of "proof", what it entails, where it falls, etc., at least 3 times in this thread, alone.
For the last time, listen closely: I'm NOT saying "God" is DISPROVEN...I'm saying that "God" is UNPROVEN. There's a big difference; YOU figure it out(if you can), and I await your evidence FOR "God", and REPEAT..that this "God" = "Yahweh".
BTW, I don't give a rat's hindquarters whether you look like a deity, Kenny Rogers, or Grizzly Adams. That is evidence of NOTHING.
'Clown: The ten commandments aren't in any order of importance, GOD's point at the time was that we don't LISTEN period.[bold added]
Amen, brother!!!!!
So let me ask you.....what is the proper punishment for working on "the Sabbath", then??? Seriously, how should we deal with the high offense of earning a living on Sundays? Do you have a reasonable answer? Also, have you ever been a patron at a store or restaurant on "the Sabbath"? I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that you have---therefore, explain to me how you are NOT enabling "sinners".
If you're not grasping where I'm going with line of questioning---and there's no reason for me to think that you are---it's because we DO NOT get "morality" from the f%cking bible. Regarding this, I asked you a direct question about how other NON-christian societies figure out that the "Golden Rule" works just fine for them, without ever having seen "the bible". Now, do you think you can stop with the emotionally charged fluff, and answer the fricking question? And while you're at it---how should newlywed wives who are not virgins be handled, hmmm? How should rebellious teens be handled? Prostitutes? Do stones work better?..or lava rock? Thanks in advance.
I replied...
"Okay, I volunteer to do that! How do you suggest I pose the question to 'god'? Please suggest both the wording and the process; that is, should I speak it, write it, think it... what?..."
Clown replied, in part...
"Give or sell everything you have, and give the money to the poor."
Interesting interpretation of the verb "ask". I'm not sure what your position is, so I don't know whether you meant that as a joke. If not, then it seems to me you wish to place belief before evidence or reason. If that connection is unclear, I'll elaborate, but I want to make sure I'm not wasting my keystrokes first.
ATF had said.... "some very general prophesy that many try to get famous on...which can be proven out mathematically to occur...predictable coincidences. "
AC then asked......."I challenge you to make one of these "predictable coincidences" you speak of and resort to...I'll be YOUR witness. "
-----
AC,
While what you quoted from me is now a bit confusing to read (from parts cut out), the gist of my argument to you in that post, had to do with predictions made and then the corresponding results from chance; or coincidence. Such results would fall mostly in the normal range of a bell curve plot.
Taking things one step further, towards the more remarkable, one can mathematically take something like ESP test done and show via a bell curve that some of the responses to such a test will fall on the edges of the bell curve.
Some folks will show a less than normal chance response, while others will show a greater than normal response. If one ignores all but the folks with the greater than normal response, it would SEEM we have folks who actually have ESP talent. Tricky games sometimes get played in such studies that skew the outcomes in favor of ESP, by folks wishing ESP to be true.
That said, within a study group there will always be the rare few who fall to the edge of the bell curve that implies a miracle of some type.
However, the real miracle would be if this mathematical distribution to the edges of the curve did NOT happen, not the opposite.
So there is no miracle going on here with folks showing less than average scores or more than average scores, in ESP ability.
The same idea holds true for popular prophets these days.
Make enough predictions and you're bound to get a 'hit' on one of them. Of course, one must include the failures, but these are never talked about by folks looking for a miracle in life.
Also, the more broad-sweeping the prophecy is, the greater chance it will come to pass.
e.g. saying an earthquake will happen in 2008 has a far greater chance to occur, than saying one will happen in a specific place on a specific date.
That said, if you make enough specific predictions, one of them (like with ESP) has a good chance of coming true, making it seem the person has some supernatural powers to predict such things.
So if you would like AC, I could list 200 of my own predictions for next month and you'll be totally amazed when ONE of them comes true, from my great god-like powers, right.
The truth is again, that what seem to be amazing coincidences when taken by themselves, really are not amazing at all when you include ALL the data that should be accounted for.
As I said before, if rare coincidences did not happen at all, that would be the something to write home to mom about.
See the links below for further study of this topic.
http://skepdic.com/littlewood.html
http://www.rit.org/essays/think/esp.html
http://skepdic.com/lawofnumbers.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9809/coincidence.html
Now if you read all these sites, perhaps your personal miracles in life, aren't so miraculous at all?
ATF
So god not answereing prayers is evidence that he exists? Please explain the logic behind that.
I was not a baby crying for attention, I was a man begging god to bring me closer to him. Also sometimes a baby needs to be fed. If a parent ignores the babys cries for food long enough, it will stop crying forever. You seem to have forgotten that we are talking about NEEDS here not wants.
AC:"Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger, so you have gotten what you prayed for, maybe you just didn't recognize, nor appreciate how it came."
O.k. So, god wanted me to not trust in him anymore to bring me closer to him? Your not making much sense.
I am sorry for the loss of your brother. I don't think you have ever lived my point of view as I experienced it. If you have had different life experiences that led you to believe on faith, fine. I have had different ones that led me to lose faith and belief. Why should your experiences be more valid than mine? Oh yeah, there NOT!
I'll have to be quick cause there's so many of you, please forgive typo's,(I failed grade 9 typing for skipping too much).
Astreja: (In other words, how does one rein in the believers and prevent them from destroying the world on purpose to fulfil prophesy?) IMPEACH BUSH, as the bringing down of the towers was an attempt to fulfill Nostradamus.
Sounds flipant, but there's a case that is easily proven even with all the lies and double talk.
boomslang: Good grief! Tell me, anyone!....am I imagining things?(pun intended) 'Clown, you've gOT to be kidding, right? I'm sorry, but I must conclude that you have a serious reading comprehension problem....either that, or you are a vapid moron. perhaps you should have re-read first(cut & paste)and thus, "disproving" your fantastic Christian claims.
You even put the word in quotes, those aren't my quotes. Then you say; For the last time, listen closely: I'm NOT saying "God" is DISPROVEN...I'm saying that "God" is UNPROVEN. There's a big difference;
Of course there's a big difference, much as there is a HUGE difference between FAITH and BELIEFS. I was trying to share with you that GOD proved that existence to me through experience. Words and all the studying and book-learning don't make up for experience, nor is it so easily shared as PROOF, nor should it be so easily discounted as lack of.
Hearing and listening are not the same thing, nor is looking and seeing.
Listening implies action.
Seeing implies understanding.
Wisdom is not the 'Accumulation of Knowledge', but the proper 'Application of Knowledge'.
I recommend meaning what you say and saying what you mean, lest I be forced to conclude I'm dealing with a vapid moron.
As for,and I await your evidence FOR "God", and REPEAT..that this "God" = "Yahweh" Are you aware that 'GOD' is just an acronym for 'Guardians Of Destiny',(not dog backwards) that "God"="Yahweh", "God"="Allah", "God"="LOVE", etc.
Does LOVE exist...please prove this to me.
Does the WIND exist...please prove this to me.
Does the SOUL exist...please prove this to me.
Should I continue to demand from you the same stupidity you demand from me?
Who told you the Sabbath was on Sunday? If Jesus was Jewish, that makes it a Saturday Sabbath doesn't it? And if I'm not mistaken Jesus addressed that issue already by saying; the priests have put yokes on the peoples back with THEIR dogma...not GOD...who reminded people to take a break every now and again.
I recommend upgrading your learning in the areas of Quantum physics and mechanics and then applying the principles Jesus tried sharing with you, such as 'EMPATHY' instead of 'COMPASSION' or 'SYMPATHY'. There is a perspective shift here that Einstein would now understand and appreciate, though it escaped him at the time.
There is also a HUGE difference between science and scientists.
The 'GOLDEN RULE' comes from GOD, so is available to everyone. Jesus just reminded you of it, though society has warped it, so let me clarify.
It is NOT Do onto Others...
It IS LOVE GOD and one Another as you LOVE yourself.
That comprises a triad of LOVE that has far more energy that being nice to peoples faces and a bitch to their backs.
Are you going to throw the FIRST stone? I'll remind you of another question of yours; Now who's arrogant?? Remember that one...which had it's own answer built in just a few lines later?
Try loving them...prostitutes, troubled teens, abusers, etc.
I haven't made every enemy an ally yet, but I have made some. Strangely enough we BOTH get stronger for it. What a concept, eh?.
Now, would that be proof or do you need a lock of hair or something?
Jim arvo: it seems to me you wish to place belief before evidence or reason...I want to make sure I'm not wasting my keystrokes first." FACTUALLY speaking my friend, I was being serious...though it may seem flippant. As was Jesus, when he sent out the 77 disciples with nothing, though only 13 remained(yes, Mary was also a disciple). Not all of them LISTENED to that advice, nor saw the WORTH in it. It's been said that many are called, few are chosen.
Please don't be confused, there is as much a difference between FAITH and BELIEFS, as there is between seeing and looking. Do you SEE what I mean, or are you only looking at the words. Some may know what is says, but that's not the same as knowing what it means.
ATF: I'm not attempting to be sarcastic, but you didn't even ask about the details of those circumstances you've already classified as "coincidence", not very scientific of you.
Place yourself in the position of the witnesses for a second. You've already witnessed some bizarre, not everyday happenings...like a baby squirrel that adopted me and moved into the hood of my cowl for a few months. Freely coming and going from my hood to the trees in downtown Toronto(Kensington Market).
Like police, that when I approach them for being unrighteous, pull their guns and threaten to "blow my head off' until I tell them to put their guns away NOW...and they do.
Like one night after watching the NEWS that left me so upset at the world, I stood and SLAMMED my foot on the ground and said; "I'm going to change the 'Face of the World' forever that they may yet learn."
The following day, you find out about this massive tsunami and earthquakes...and when you are still being doubtful and say so; "That's just a coincidence, I'd need something more than THAT", as you turn on your TV to hear; "...And today the 'Face of the World' has been changed forever."
and then you turn it right back off again saying; "That doesn't count."
My friend, I would hope you understand that with the difference in meanings that we've shared so far, you can see that there is also a gap between prediction and prophecy. I don't make predictions of earthquakes, or floods...I was VERY specific...and that wording was REPEATED EXACTLY!!! Taking it a step further away from the word 'coincidence' and closer to 'syncronicity'(though I don't know how to spell it, it means you have to look at things being relative with meaning and therefore once the coincidences start piling up...you can no longer use that word by it's very definition).
Not to mention that event was also foretold by Jesus as one of the SIGNS to watch for regarding the coming of the 'Son of Man'. (as was the 'from the east, even to the west' one)WOW, That's 2 for 2 for me. There's also a Hindu one about a full lunar and Solar eclipse prior to their prophets 40th birthday as a sign, and if it's not by some/yet another coincidence, just last year prior to my 40th year there was BOTH a solar and lunar eclipse one week either side of the spring solstice.
(And the Bell curve is going straight up now).
If you make just ONE, that is well beyond your ability to manipulate and that takes place in the somewhat immediate that would be enough for me...as I did, and as was witnessed BEFORE the event. I'm not running around making it up AFTER...just saying I said it.
THAT I CAN PROVE, (though that still doesn't prove what it means).
stronger now: I never said that proves anything, only that it neither disproves it. I've not forgotten NEEDS at all...simply pointing out how sometimes people throw what we NEED back in GOD's face saying it's not what we WANT.
And it does make sense my friend, though it's not as easy to deal with, nor understand. Though, it is simple enough for a child and too complex for a genius...BTW->have you starved to death yet...well thank GOD.(just kidding).
When I said I've shared your point of view, I simply meant from the perspective of non-believer, or no faith.
I never said my experiences were more valid than yours, only more successful, which in itself validates them.
Let's say we're on a treasure hunt and we BOTH have a copy of the same map, you decipher the clues and find nothing and so think the map is useless. I find a treasure, even a small pearl shall we say, and hear that you've given up the search...though I've buried my pearl, I can assure you there is STILL treasure there.
In TRUTH, in doesn't really matter what any of you say to me...I already have my pearl. I just thought I'd help you guys out with some of the clues that you may have your own. I didn't ask you for anything for it, just offered up something for nothing...and consequently have had it deemed worthless. If it'll help, you can send me $19.95.(just kidding again, i rarely use money)
As i've said before; "Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's true and just because you don't believe it...doesn't mean it's not."
your humble servant,
ancient clown
What you fail to understand is that my experiences were succesful, in that, I succesfully started to deal with reality. THAT is the "pearl" I found. You claim to not see mine or claim mine isn't real because....well..it's not what you want to believe. Truth and reality seldom is what people want to believe, it quite often hurts. But I'm a big boy, I can take it.
Also, your the one claiming that a deity answers prayer, something you and a lot of other believers back up with experential evidence. Mine discounts yours, so what else do you have to back up your claim? Any real verifiable credible evidence? I've tried your recommended verification process and came up with a result that you discount for no good reason other than you simply cannot believe it.
Clown:"... there is a GOD.
Easily verifiable, if you do it the way it was recommended by JESUS.
Prayer, for instance...not as the church teaches, but as CHRIST taught. Alone and honestly from the heart.
Seeking, for instance...not as the world does it, but as CHRIST taught, to go forth as a CHILD.
IN the very living of life itself, for instance...Not out of fear and greed, but in FAITH and LOVE."
also:"If you don't believe me, if you don't believe JESUS...then ask GOD yourself."
AND:"Sorry for the delay to those of you who wait with baited breath to call me a liar without proving it."
As I said before I did this and it didn't work. So I guess it's not "easily verifiable" after all. That would prove you to be a lier or mistaken at best.
Now, if you have some another way of verifying the existence of god, I'm all ears. But still, you don't seem to have a good understanding of your own deity if you say it'll do this and that when you do such and such, and it doesn't. Could it be you don't really know for sure? Could you be mistaken about the whole thing?
Clown:"In TRUTH, it doesn't really matter what any of you say to me...I already have my pearl."
You see, it matters so much to me what you have to say, especially after you claim to know the "TRUTH". But it's when your claims are found to not be true that I discount what you have to say. Reason tends to work like that.
If I told you:
"If you pray to me I'll answer your prayers, but first you must believe and have faith in me.
Try it and see. But you must pray for it the right way and you must pray for only things that you need. If you're alive tomorrow you can thank me for giving you your needs. If your not, you'll be in the everlasting brothel with me. Now, go tell your friends. I'm sure they'll be glad to here of me."
Would you do it KNOWING that it's not true? How do you know it's untrue? Did you try it? Why not? What have you got to lose? It's just as likely that I am god as the deity you describe. The results are the same anyway. Except, I have the added advantage of actually existing and can prove it. If I don't exist then who are you answering?
By the way, your pearl is fake. I already explained why I know this.
Here's a suggestion---if you'd stick to a point-by-point rebuttal as opposed to going off on mile-long irrelevant tangents, you'd save even more time.
'Clown: perhaps you should have re-read first(cut & paste)
Thanks, but I don't need to re-read anything. You said(to me): You haven't FACTUALLY disproven anything[bold added]
And again, for possibly the 5th or 6th time, it's not my goal or interest to DISPROVE any of 'Clown's fantastic mystical personal experiences; or any of his links; or any of his cute little anecdotal parables..e.g. "people say I look and act like Jesus!!!!" Nor have I set out to DISPROVE "God". Why? Let's review(hopefully for your benefit): BECAUSE THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS THE RESPONSIBILTIY OF THE ONE MAKING THE POSITIVE CLAIM(S). I, as well as everyone else in this thread, am merely waiting on objective evidence that substantiates your fantastic claims. If you don't have that evidence, just be forthright and say it. Note: Your "it IS so, because I BELIEVE it!!!!" policy isn't exactly what any of us consider credible evidence.(If that wasn't obvious up until this point, I thought you should know it now)
Regarding this same issue, I previously said: "I'm NOT saying "God" is DISPROVEN...I'm saying that "God" is UNPROVEN. There's a big difference."
'Clown's response: Of course there's a big difference, much as there is a HUGE difference between FAITH and BELIEFS. I was trying to share with you that GOD proved that existence to me through experience.
And what I'm trying to get you to grasp, is that if you believe your personal experiences as "proof" for the existence of "God", then great...goody for you--you are perfectly free to have those beliefs. But unfortunately, what's proof for one man, may NEVER be proof for all of mankind. Do we have an understanding? I'd like a "yes", or "no"(if possible).
And you bring up the word "faith". Excellent. Okay, if you know God exists; if you have all the "proof" you'll ever need, then surely you don't "faith", right? Right, that would be redundant, a waste of energy, and thus, unnecessary. Furthermore, I don't quite know what would possess you to believe that anyone else should accept your claims on "faith". Would you accept a Muslim's personal experiences as Universal Truth, on "faith"? How about a Mormon's? Again, I'd like an unequivocal "yes", or "no"(if possible).
In regards to providing evidence that the Creator of the Universe is undeniably the Christian biblegod, 'Clown said: Are you aware that 'GOD' is just an acronym for 'Guardians Of Destiny',(not dog backwards) that "God"="Yahweh", "God"="Allah", "God"="LOVE", etc.
Are you aware that you are equivocating, thus, circumventing the question? My neighbor's Rot' is named "Thor". "Thor" is a deity. So what?
Let me rephrase the question for you, in two parts: 1) Do you believe the Universe has a Creator, and that you have a personal relationship with this Creator? 2) If "yes" to question 1, where is your evidence that this "Creator" is the Christian version of this deity?
'Clown asks: Does LOVE exist...please prove this to me.
Does the WIND exist...please prove this to me.
Does the SOUL exist...please prove this to me.
Should I continue to demand from you the same stupidity you demand from me?
What's "stupid" is that you are comparing apples to oranges, firstly, in that no one is disputing the existence of "love" and/or the "wind". There are no website debates(that I know of) where the topic is the existence of the "wind", or "love". But to humor you---as for wind, we can harness the wind; we can measure the wind; we can see which direction the wind is blowing, etc. As for "love", it's a verb, as well as a noun. Furthermore, no one is telling you the love exists, with conditions attached; you are perfectly free to deny love exists, or the wind exists, if it fancies you. Secondly, as for a "soul", why on earth you'd ask me to "prove" to you something for which I do not believe; something for which there is no empirical evidence, I haven't a clue. YOU "prove" to me a "soul" exists.
'Clown attempts: Who told you the Sabbath was on Sunday? If Jesus was Jewish, that makes it a Saturday Sabbath doesn't it?
So is this an admission on your part that you're Jewish? lol Okay, let me, AGAIN, rephrase my question to avoid answers that equivocate.
Have you ever been a patron at a store or restaurant on the day of the week that Commandment four of the "Ten Commandments" clearly states that one should do NO WORK? If "yes", then please explain how you are not enabling "sinners". Clear enough?
'Clown: Quantum physics and mechanics and then applying the principles Jesus tried sharing with you, such as 'EMPATHY' instead of 'COMPASSION' or 'SYMPATHY'.
Um, you're telling me to apply quantum physics to principles in the bible?? Which principle, specifically, is supported by "quantum physics", or vice versa?
'Clown: There is a perspective shift here that Einstein would now understand and appreciate, though it escaped him at the time.
That's interesting; you claim to KNOW the thoughts of a dead man. I'm impressed.
'Clown: The 'GOLDEN RULE' comes from GOD, so [it's] available to everyone. Jesus just reminded you of it, though society has warped it, so let me clarify.
Yes! yes!..the "Golden Rule" allegedly comes from "Jesus"; we presumably know this through the alleged "Word of God"..i.e the bible. However, not-too-shockingly, you've done jack' to answer my question, which was, how do OTHER societies live by this rule, having never seen a bible? In other words, if they get it from their respective "Holy" books, then the bible doesn't have a monopoly on Truth, does it?(rhetorical)
In response to my question on how we should deal with rebellious teens, and prostitutes, etc...'Clown said: Try loving them...prostitutes, troubled teens, abusers, etc.
No, no, no....I'm not talking about biblical generalalities..i.e.."God is LOVE!!!"; I'm talking about how the "Word of God" clearly delineates how we should deal with rebellious teens and prostitutes. To refresh your memory, we should STONE them. I'll be happy to provide the exact verses if you wish.
'Clown finsishes with: Now, would that be proof or do you need a lock of hair or something?
No, I wouldn't advise touching the Creator of the Universe' hair, he only thought in necessary to wash his feet.