What evidence exists to convince me that YMCA is telling the truth? Is this thing about providing photos for camp approval routine? I have never been involved with camps so it might be routine and I just don't know it. It seems wierd, though, that this suddenly becomes an issue when it was not an issue in the past. It's the nit-picky kind of thing that sometimes happens with turn-over of staff...

Instead of writing opinions, you can take action and make a difference.

Here is the Americans United for Separation of Church and State site to report incidences of religious discrimination.

AU: Report a Violation

That's not really a violation unless it's a state-run camp, is it?

I'm all for separation of church and state (it kills me that the Catholic school board here in Canada gets full funding). I just don't think this is an example.

I do think the YMCA reps are lying about the issue being the photograph. It may be policy, but it's a convenient policy contravention that can allow them to do what they wanted to do anyway without having to admit to their actions having anything to do with their discomfort with atheism.

Was it wrong? Probably. Does the YMCA have the right to do it? Probably.

Jamie wrote:
"...I do think the YMCA reps are lying about the issue being the photograph..."

Forget "I think" they're lying --- they _are_ lying.

This is one of those "secret all around the block" type lies. They're lying. You know they're lying. They know that you know that they're lying. You know that they know that you know that they're lying. They know that you know that they know that you know that they're lying.

They also don't _care_ that this lie is known to be a lie in such a thoroughgoing manner. It's not about whether anyone _knows_ that they're lying --- it's about whether they can be _proven_ to be lying. They can't be, and so, no consequence, and no problem. In fact, if anything, they're _glad_ for it to be known as yet another "lying for Jesus" mission accomplished. Life will soon take an upturn for this YMXA branch, just watch.

Well, it is the Young Men's CHRISTIAN Association after all isnt it? This shouldnt suprise people. -Vixentrox-

sailerfraud said...

"Instead of writing opinions, you can take action and make a difference."

Feel free to report it if you think it should be reported. I'm a Canadian and it would probably not be appropriate for me to report it. Or perhaps your answer was for the author of the piece.

As far as I know, the YMCA isn't a government entity, so they don't have to let anyone play on their property if they don't want to.

That being said, they are probably being coy about the reason they kicked out the atheists because they don't want the bad publicity.

An atheist kid's camp!? WTF?

That would have been much more fun than the Christian indoctrination camp I went to.

The YMCA receives a significant amount of federal funding. A simple Google search of the combined three keywords of YMCA federal funds is quite revealing.

Since the organization is strongly supported by taxpayer dollars, it seems unlikely it can arbitrarily disallow a group solely based on religious or non-religious affiliation.

If this is pursued, it might prove interesting.

I'll go ahead and report this to Americans United. I don't know what AU will say or if I'll even receive a response, but I'll keep you posted on this.


All this time I thought YMCA was a secular charity group which stood for "Young Mens Club of America". I guess that disco song by the Village People didn't reveal their true agenda.

why does this story have a bizarre parallel to my life? christians think just because theyre rich, they can push around people that arent rich, and cant fight back. the scary thing is, there are more cases and incidents of christians getting thier way, and the non christians getting pushed to the side as inferiors. I would call it on the grounds of religious discrimination.

Wow. Dave, the Webmaster is right; lotsa fed funding and you don't even have to click on any links to see it!

clicking on one link, Citizens Against Government Waste, and entering "YMCA" got an article that stated that in FY 2004, YMCAs nationwide got 6.8 million in fed funding. Other articles claim that YMCA facilities are using tax-exempt status to unfaily compete with other entities such as health clubs and even vacation dude ranches.

I think they got some 'splainin' to do vis a vis the atheist kids.

I got a preliminary response (not some auto-generated response) from AU the next day. Here is the original letter I wrote and AU's response, with specific names omitted.

* * * * * * * * * *
My letter:

I would like to bring to your attention this possible case of religious discrimination.

http://exchristian.net/2/2007/03/ymca-kicks-out-kids-camp-for-atheists.html

The YMCA owns a campground in Hamilton, Ohio where the atheist group, Camp Quest, holds their camping events geared toward children who wish not to follow religion. The YMCA recently decided not to allow Camp Quest to hold their events on the campgrounds anymore.

YMCA claims this was not religiously motivated, but Camp Quest claims this is religious discrimination.

Please tell me, what is your opinion on this matter? Is this a valid case to pursue legal action on religious discrimination?

* * * * * * * * * *
AU's response:

Thank you for contacting Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Your complaint has been forwarded to AU’s Madison Legal Fellows.

Although we try to respond to every legal inquiry and complaint that we receive (averaging about 100 per month), we do so while simultaneously maintaining active litigation in several cases at once. As a result, we often must prioritize the best that we can by considering the time-sensitive nature of the inquiry and how much research it will require in light of other pressing responsibilities and their deadlines. If your complaint appears to be time-sensitive, we will be in touch shortly. If your complaint is less time-sensitive, it may take a few weeks or more for us to respond. If, in the meantime, there are new developments in your situation that render your complaint more urgent, please let us know immediately, and we will try to respond accordingly.

Thank you for your patience.

* * * * * * * * * *

The webmaster has a good point.

You guys are fools & bigots.

There's no evidence that the YMCA's decision was based on any sort of bias, but you immediatley assume it was because they happen to be a Christian organization.

Even if there was some bias involved, who cares? It's their camp and they can approve whoever they want.

Should atheist organizations have to rent their facilities out to local church groups?!?!

If atheist organizations receive federal funding, then yes, atheist organizations should be required to rent out to church groups.

This is all about the federal funding the YMCA receives. When organizations receive federal funding, they are not supposed to be discriminating. The YMCA, apparently, blatantly discriminated.

Anony-non chirped: There's no evidence that the YMCA's decision was based on any sort of bias...

And since when does "evidence" matter? We have "faith" that this is most definitely a case of discrimination. lol