Ooookay...let me get this straight....this guy is in trouble for having an affair with one of the teen-aged girls in his church's youth group....and so he's in trouble. Good enough....but what I'm hearing and seeing here is that this girl KNEW what she was doing and just because she's not 18 he's getting all the blame. Yeah, he should have known better...but she obviously went into the affair with eyes wide open and now is whining and pulling the "poor me, my life is ruined because of him."
How old is this girl? 15? 16? 17?
I've met plenty of girls, and know several, who get involved with older guys, fuck them on a regular basis, actually being the one's who instigate the sex on a regular basis, but when the shit hits the fan...the guy gets the whole blame. NOT fair. If he was actually raping her, molesting her against her will, then he should get locked up and the damned key thrown away...but I'm not seeing this as the case. The grand daughter of a close personal friend of mine has several times sneaked away just to meet a guy that she lied to about her age, telling him that she was 18, (even though she's only actually 12..she looks 18), just to have sex with him. And, when her Mom noticed her missing this last time and called the cops and the guy ended up in a hell of a mess. Naturally, the girl lied about the extent of her involvement in this little charade. I think the laws regarding the age of consent should be lowered to 16....especially since by that time most of the young girls I know have been having sex since they were at least 12-14 years of age...WILLINGLY. Instead of expecting our kids to not have sex until they are married, we should educate them about the facts of life and teach responsibility about it. Not punish those who really don't deserve it.

religion kills "how old is this girl? 15? 16? 17?"

Perhaps the girl in question is thirteen. perhaps She's older but slightly retarded. Also, even if the girl "knew" what she was doing, perhaps she didn't or couldn't understand the long term effects sex has on her life. We know the man is 28. So i would think that he would at least realize that somebody that he has conact with as an authority figure would be off limits to him even if he didn't enitiate. He was her youth minister. He should have known how old she was. He abused his authority over her regardless of her age. He got a light sentence.


You don't know all the facts of the case. Nor does anyone else from reading the story. So, before second guessing the judge and jury, try to use a brain cell.

I think I made the point that, yes..he should have known better, Stronger, but like you said, WE don't know all the facts. There are several facts that are left out of this article. I am using my brain cells, thank you oh so much, it's my fucking job to second guess this kind of shit. (No, I'm not a lawyer...I'm a crime scene analyst/criminal investigator.) I get the impression that you yourself was the victim of some sort of sex crime...if so, I understand that scenario..been there, suffered that. But, I am quite sure the girl is not retarded, even mildly, or else she would not have been fit to testify. I think he got a light sentence because most of the people involved in this whole deal knew that when push came to shove...the girl was more than willing....irregardless of her age.

The point I was trying to get accross is that the willingness of the girl does not condone the behavior of an adult. People of authority can use that willingness to their advantage. It cannot be detrmined the degree of manipulation involved. I'ts likely that a minor couldn't know the long term effects of her decisions. The adult could, and that makes a big difference. If it didn't then a 30 year old man could have sex with a 12 year old girl and she should be held partly responsible for her own victimization.

You seemed to not understand that he is the one who was in the wrong. Even if she was willing it wasn't her who was at fault. He was. He knew better. Knew how old she was, knew it was wrong, knew it was illegal. Even if she knew all that, it wasn't her that had to stop it. It doesn't matter if she was shaking her ass in his face. He overstepped his bounds.Not her.

"As Christians, we believe that God has guided Judge Steele and others in positions of authority in the decisions they have made in this case...."

Yeah, just like he guided this pervert to have sex with an underaged girl....

HI religionkills, you're a criminal DEFENSE investigator, aren't you?

The virgin Mary would also have cried,

"I thank the court for considering in the sentencing the pain that my pastor has caused, not only in myself but in my family and my church family as well," she said. "As a result of this, I have lost not only my virginity, but also I've lost friends I never thought I would lose."

Had she and Joseph and the whole community not been conned into believeing that an angel inseminated her with God's sperm as told by her trustful pastor.

Otherwise all three, Mary, Joseph and her pastor would have been stoned to death for having sex outside of marriage.

*sigh* No, I am NOT a criminal DEFENSE investigator....I am a CRIME SCENE ANALYST/CRIMINAL/CRIME SCENE investigator.
I DID state that this youth pastor was wrong, and that he should have known better....the point I was making was merely that putting ALL the blame on him is just as wrong. I have had YEARS to see countless situtations like this...and too many times crispie morality gets in the way of common sense. I'm saying that from the facts presented in the article, the girl DID know what she was doing and was just as wrong as this guy. She didn't say,"my life is ruined because he molested/raped me...", but said, "...as a result I lost my virginity, but also lost friends that I never thought I'd lose." Which says to me that she wasn't taking ANY responsibility for her actions whatsoever in this
sordid little tale.

When it is an adult fooling around with a minor, it doesn't make any difference who came on to whom, or anything else. A minor is a minor is a minor is a minor is a minor.

In my day, attractive minors were called jail bait.

If you want to go to jail, screw around with a minor. It's as simple as that.

That's the law. If the law is wrong, then it should be changed. But as long as that is the law, then the minor is a victim and the adult is a victimizer, no matter what the specific circumstances involved.

I wouldn't think this would be hard for a religious leader to understand. I'm surprised that someone who works in law enforcement, in any capacity, is confused by this idea.

So, if you've got an under-18-year-old lover, and you are over 18, you're gambling with your future. That's the law.

Further, this comment: "...as a result I lost my virginity, but also lost friends that I never thought I'd lose" indicates to me a considerable lack of maturity on the part of the girl, and nothing more. In other words, emotionally at least, she's a kid.

Ok...the girl is a minor...that is an obvious point. I have a 16 year old son who is dating an 18 year old girl. So, if they have sex does that make her a criminal? Is my 16 year old son NOT responsible for his actions? If you say that she's not guilty and he's just as responsible as she is then that a double-standard bunch of bullshit. When is a person supposed to start taking responsibility for their actions? Is that supposed to magically happen when they turn 18? Believe me, Webmaster, I DO know what the law is, and I have not once said that this guy wasn't in the wrong....but, saying that this girl didn't know what she was doing is insulting to the intelligence of most young adults.
Law or not, she should be held just as responsible for her actions the same as this guy. Barely a 100 years ago it was nothing for girls in the age range
I'm guessing this girl to be in to marry men well over the age of 18.
They weren't considered pervs then. I'm not condoning this dude's actions, not by a long shot, but I don't believe for one damned second that this girl did not know or understand what she was doing.

"I have a 16 year old son who is dating an 18 year old girl. So, if they have sex does that make her a criminal?"

Should you choose to, you will have the right to press charges. If she is found guilty, she will be in big trouble.

Case closed.

It doesn't make any difference whether the 16-year-old kid "knows" what he or she is doing, or not. They are minors, period.

And if the adult doesn't understand that, then that adult is a moron.

It doesn't matter if the adult is a man or a woman, under the law a kid is a kid is a kid is a kid is a kid until 18.

And until the law is changed, TDB.

Your point is valid webmaster..but so is mine. I taught my kids to take responsibility for their action. My 16 year old son KNOWS what he's doing. So he needs no interference from me. And as you so quaintly put it...CASE CLOSED. :)

P.S. Because I DO work in law enforcement...I have quite a bit more clarity of thought on these matters Webmaster. Have YOU had to pick through the mess of a nasty crime scene and gather the clues only to find out the the murderer IS a "minor" child? Believe you me...I have. I've seen the horror on the face of the parents of the murdered child, and I've looked into the face of a cold-blooded murderer whose age was only 12. Don't you DARE tell I'm confused about the clarity of thought. The little "kid" pre-meditated this murder, KNEW what he was doing when he kidnapped and slaughtered a 2 year old baby. Tell me webmaster,is a kid is a kid is a kid, even when they start murdering other kids?
A murderer is a murderer is a murderer...no matter the fucking age...wouldn't you say?

Religion,

If what you are arguing is sexual morality as expressed throughout history, then that's another topic. However, if you are arguing the law as it stands today, then this guy was found guilty under the law and the girl is innocent. That's all there is to it.

I hear your anger in your writing, but I honestly don't see the comparative relevance of a murder scenario compared to the sexual escapes of a 28-year-old youth minister with a teen. You say you are aware of some teenager who murdered a two-year-old. Unless there are some unique circumstances involved of which I am ignorant, that teen will still probably be tried as a minor. For better or worse, that's the way our law works.

No doubt there are 17-year-olds who are very mature. There are also 28-year-olds that are very immature, obviously. Still, we have laws in the US meant to protect minors and the innocent. The intent is for the law, if it must err, to err on the side of protecting the innocent. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. As you know, laws about bedding minors aren't secret laws, they are well publicized. This youth minister crossed the line and must pay. Young people with raging hormones rarely think clearly when it comes to sex. Sometimes it falls to the adults to think clearly for them -- sometimes. In the case of a minister, put in a position of trust and responsibility, I would say that such a mandate would be even more clear.

I really don't see why you are so upset abut this.

I've found that what people say reveals much about how they think, I'm inclined to wonder if you have some personal investment either in this particular case, or if there is some other motive for your anger at this young woman.

With the constant reports of pedophilia going on seemingly everywhere in our "Christian" society, I personally think these laws are justified. I don't care if the teen was as hot as fire and was hitting on the guy with everything she had. Taboo is taboo, and when you are a minister, a leader with influence, that taboo goes up a notch. And where was the power of the Holy Ghost in all this? Absent as usual, I guess.

Again, your apparent resentment of these current societal rules is provocative. Would you care to explain why you're so animate on this topic?

Oh, and rereading your first on post on this, I would agree with you on educating our kids about sex. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a couple of 16-year-olds getting it on in the back of the school bus are going to end up in jail just because they had sex. Two minors having sex is a problem for the parents, but no one's going to be prosecuted, unless it's a date rape or something.

Oh, and the guy shtooping the 12-year-old and couldn't tell she was under 18...

BULLSHIT!

Okay....I'll try to explain my reasons for being SO animate on this topic. I have had to deal with "kids" who are some of the most despicable and loathsome creatures I have ever met. I have advocated the reviewing, and re-adjusting of laws that were put into place to actually protect kids under the age of majority under the assumption that they were incapable of understanding their actions and too young to take responsibility for them. In my experience, and the experience of others in my profession...this is a HUGE misconception. My anger is not at this young WOMAN in particular...but my anger stems from the way society as a whole advocates the whole "passing the buck" deal...in other words things are set up that no one is really expected to take responsibility for their actions. Just because a person does not fit the age criteria doesn't mean that they should not be responsible for their actions. I'm not saying a five year old understands what he or she might do and the consequences of that action. But, our society has set it up so that anyone under the age of majority can...literally sometimes....get away with murder just because they are under 18. If a person by the time they are teen-agers haven't learned some responsibility for the actions they take then the parent or parents have failed in THEIR responsibility...sometimes with extremely dire consequences. Which is why you get "legal" adults who are as irresponsible as an eight year old. I've also met 8 year olds who are more responsible than a lot of adults as well. I'm not condoning what this youth pastor did, I've not been defending him in anyway. I agree that he should have had a bit more control over his libido just because he was in a position of authority. But, to say that this young WOMAN was not responsible for her actions just because she wasn't 18 is just stupid. Any law should also be siphoned through the filter of some common fucking sense. The laws that were put into place to protect have instead allowed many of these "kids" to commit atrocious crimes and allowed them to get away with them. I myself was the victim of a real pedophile, and the laws did nothing to protect me because it was up to my mother to do something about it. She chose not to because of the "embarrassment factor". I was 9, not a teen-ager with raging hormones. I learned a harsh lesson about taking responsibility that day. ALL adults have the whole raging hormone deal going...you guys NEVER really quit having the drive for poon do you? When I was in the age range of 13-17 years of age...I was quite aware of what I chose to do and aware of the consequences of those actions....ESPECIALLY by the time I was 16. Absolving someone of responsibility just because they don't happen to fit the criteria laid out by law is a serious mistake. It's why you get the little 12 year old sociopath getting off so easy and most likely getting out when he's 18 and destroying the lives of others. I've become far too jaded over the years to believe in any god of any sort...or in the innocence of children past the single digit range. Humans are humans irregardless of age.
They are rationalizing creatures...not rational ones. Those of us who actually make the effort to be smarter and more logical and rational than the rest of the mostly hairless apes...do so because of a lot of effort and the desire to try to understand this fucked up world we live in. Just because a law is a law doesn't necessarily make it infallible...they are laws made by humans after all. You enjoy having "freedoms" right? Well, freedom, as I understand the term, means the right to make a decision and act on that decision...but freedom also means the freedom to take the RESPONSIBILITY, and the consequences, of those actions made... be they good, bad, or indifferent. I've had to deal with "minors" who have sexually abused and molested other kids who were also minors under the law. The damage done was no less horrible. But, because they were "underage" they were NOT forced to take responsibility for their actions and therefore no consequences were forth coming. And, down the road when they were all "grown up" they commit crimes that are even worse, and that could have been avoided if they had been nipped in the bud years earlier. Do you see my point Webmaster? Do you understand the source of my anger? My anger stems from a society that deems that a person under the age of 18 is too ignorant, naive, or just plain too stupid to understand these things. Unless, a person is really mentally retarded in some fashion, then this is RARELY the case.

By the way...about the guy not knowing this girl was 12 and not 18...well my husband I know this girl very well, and when we first met her we thought she was at least 16...she was 11 then. Her mother has tried everything to keep this girl under control until she is of the age of majority and the girl is no longer her responsibility. Even going so far as to actually put her daughter in foster care in hope that the system could straighten her ass out...instead...once again the girl proves that if she wants to have sex she's going to do it. She sneaks off while at a ball game with the foster family she is with and gets caught fucking in an empty dug-out with some guy she doesn't really know. So, social services decides the kid is hopeless, ships her back to her mother because they don't want to deal with the responsibility of having this girl turn up all knocked up while in their care. This girl is already well experienced, and has put the on the road years already too. SO, you can scream bullshit all you want, we KNOW the girl, and yes, she could VERY easily pass for 18.
She's 13 now and looks a LOT older. Her mother has put her on the pill just to try to head off any potential pregnancies...and tries to get the little slut to
at least make the guys she fucks use a rubber to keep from getting a nasty disease. The girl has made it quite clear that she likes sex and will fuck whoever she wants and no one will stop her...I heard those words with my own two ears Webmaster. So, what would you do in case like this...hmmm?
Lock her up? That's against the LAW...it's called unlawful imprisonment. Put a fucking chastity belt on her? I'm sure that would be deemed child abuse.
Sew her damned cootch closed? I'm sure that comes under the headings abuse and cruelty to a child too.

No, in my opinion, if ANY "minor" chooses to commit "adult" crimes then they should be punished as such. Any "minor" decides to engage in "adult" activities then they should have to take the "adult" consequences. Period. Experience is the best teacher, as the old saying goes, but it's certainly the most costly....for society as a whole, and most usually for the families of those who act without thinking because they've been taught to not consider their actions and take responsibility for the decision made. Whether that decision is to enter into a sexual relationship, or to murder somebody...it still all comes to the same end.

OK, religionkills,

Thanks for clarifying. And, for the most part, I agree with your general observations and judgment.

What we sometimes see on this site is a poster who defends the "wronged preacher" and denigrates the "evil, wicked, teen seductress." Another thing I've had to deal with here, unfortunately, has been an adult who was trolling for minors to "correspond with."

Although I agree there are difficult kids out there (I had one), to think for a minute that an adult becomes the unwilling sexual victim of an underage lover, is to me, just a bit of a far reach. I could be wrong on this, but I don't see it.

Regardless, I appreciate your perspective, and perhaps the laws should be adjusted. Still, until those laws are changed, then it is up to the adult to know the boundaries. If love is true, I would think that the adult would be able to wait a year or two until it's all legal before consummating that love.

Regardless, this is just all my opinion and I thank you for your candor. It gives me food for thought.

Ah....I see. No sir, I was not defending either of these people. As I stated, he should have known better...should have kept it in his pants. I have developed the view over the years that real pedophiles, rapists, and predators of that ilk should be castrated, and if that doesn't work...then remove them from the populace permanently. GAWDS! If I had a fucking dollar for everyone of these loathsome freaks I'd be richer than either of us can probably imagine. (and I can imagine an awful lot!) You have no idea how difficult these fuckbags make my job. When one helps take these vile creatures off the streets and then the system turns right around and puts these monsters back on the streets...it DOES change one's perspective of things. It's enough to make one applaud when one hears of some "vigilante justice" taking place on one of these pricks. Because, when the system fails as it so often does, and a parent of a murdered, or sexually abused child, or in some cases, an entire community, takes the law into their own hands it's generally because they feel they are left with no alternative. My job deals with the stuff of nightmares. I go into a crime scene, gather the evidence...take the pictures...do the paper work...etc., and then, usually, I go home. But, when my job involves having to deal with children...whether they are the victims or the perps...it makes it damned hard to sleep an awful lot of the time. The core of my job is being the crime scene forensics expert...and that means also being a detective, and a lot of the time criminal profiler. My job is an awful lot like a homicide detective's in many respects. I weed through the evidence, weed out all the prospects that don't fit...and whatever's left, however unlikely or improbable as those facts may seem...usually leads one to the perp of the crime. The shock I had when my first case involving a child murderer made me rather ill. To hear the testimony of a 12 year old when asked why he murdered a 2 year old baby, and his statement being, "Well, I was bored and it seemed like a good idea at the time." chilled me to my marrow. I had a lot of sleepless nights for a while. That day changed my views on a lot of things.

I thank you for being willing to listen Webmaster. I understand your views on these matters as well. And, the point you made about "an adult being the "unwilling" sexual victim of an underage lover" leads me to this statement. In a situation like that, there really aren't any victims. Both are willing...no one is being forced. Therefore the responsibility of their actions lie with both persons involved.

Again, thank you for your time. I truly enjoy this website. While I don't always comment on every article...I am here nearly everyday checking things out. I rather enjoy the correspondence we seem to be developing. You seem far more intelligent than most of the hairless apes I deal with everyday. :)

Of all the comments I read regarding this topic, nowhere is the girl's age mentioned. FYI, the girl is 17 and from what I've seen, girls of 17 are usually fully developed physically and mentally and are typically looking for older men, more "mature" men.

If this had taken place up here in Canada, the crime would be the guy abusing his position of power. If she or he dropped out of the group BEFORE the affair then there wouldn't have been a problem; they could have screwed all they wanted and nary a charge from the uptight authorities.

Well, you just proved my point to some degree Ottawa.

I had pretty well figured she was of that age bracket and therefore just as responsible for this situation. Thank you for making this young woman's age known to us all. So, this whole spiel boils down to the crispie ethics getting in the way of two consenting people. Figures.

Webmaster...there seems to be a problem with the new postings showing up. I posted a reply to you and someone by the call name 'Ottawa infidel' did so as well this morning...but neither have shown up on the postings yet.