With due respect, it's not an argument, it's a combination of an apology (read 'lie') and opinion.

I'd love to know what history the moron is studying since it is NOT Biblical, otherwise he'd realise that when you examine what looks like a turd, it's usually a turd all the way through... So he's discussing turd polishing, which is possible, since the church has been doing it for the longest time... But no matter how high gloss it is, it's just a shiny turd.

Love

Grandpa

I had not read the origional 'two metals' missive until I read the rebuttal. You are right. What he presented as an argument was nothing more than a differention between two items 'in his opinion'. I particullarily liked the "turd polishing" comment from Grandpa. This does however seem, all to often, the "logic" used by Christians. G

Grandpa,
Your last comments were worth their weight in gold! Shiny turd....now that's a good picture. Go Grandpa!

Ick. It's hard for me to read the rebuttal when my name is popping up all throughout it. :)

I'm honestly surprised that anyone bothered to write a response to such an obviously inflammatory and completely subjective piece.

What I think he was trying to convey is that, one claiming to be a Christian is viewed as being more honorable and admirable as opposed to claiming to be an Atheist, because an Atheist has no one to praise him for his decision not to believe.

I think that little does Mr. Cowen know that the Native American Indians where the sole owners of this land, before it was taken over and stolen out from them in the name of their Bible God.

Before 1492 there was not a Bible nor a church on American soil, the Bible was brought over here by Christopher Columbus.

It is estimated there were over 50 million Native American Indians on this land and the Indians were considered as heathen infidels and killed by the Christians.

ref: http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

I see absolutely no honor or merit in calling oneself a christian.

I suggest Mr.Cowen do some research, before he come on here and compares Atheists as opposed to xtains.

I know he's just repeating something that he's heard a fanatical fundy preacher repeat.

He sounds like a shit salesman with a mouth full of samples.

"Better to keep one's mouth shut and thought a fool, than open it and resolve all doubt."

I do not think you're welcome here.

What is gold?

It is a soft, shiney metal that is easy to work with. It's too soft and too heavy for any practical purpose such as making tools, weapons, or buildings. But it's great for making fancy adornments such as rings, necklaces and crowns.

People wear gold to make themselves look rich and powerful - to present the image that they are somehow better than everybody else.

So comparing christianity to a chunk of gold makes perfect sense to me: it is a superfluous, impractical adornment meant to convey a superior status to one who is really no better than anybody else.

Now, comparing atheism to a piece of lead doesn't make any sense to me.

Unless you happen to flip it over and find the words "Seek truth, reason and understanding" carved in the back.

Cowen's article also has this: "In opposition to atheism, Christianity does not seem to necessitate a biweekly reaffirmation in an opinion column..."

?!?!
So, no going to church every week, or reading the bible everyday?
Prayer meetings, Fellowships, Youth Groups, Study cells...?

Hi Mark Adler,

In response to your statement:
"Cowan's argument has no merit. Christianity is just better because it is. Just like "You gotta have faith," or "It's better to be safe than sorry.""

And since so many of you frequently say things like (old post by "Boomslang":
"You have nothing--NOT-A-THING--to substantiate your position, except your own personal testimony"
it seems to me that maybe a little post that has some substance could be well received by this site. ?

On this point, I'd like you to know that I have once witnessed the physical manifestation of the scent of roses while alone praying the rosary. In fact, my mother has also received this grace many times. She had it happen while in her vehicle and when her co-worker joined her in the car (she was giving her a ride home), she also noticed a very distinct scent of roses without being prompted by my mother. My father also once witnessed this manifestation with my mother. I really don't know what to say about these spiritual gifts, except to say that I thank God for them as they certainly help strengthen faith.

As well, I was agnostic for most of my life and thought it certain that Darwinian evolution had explained away God. Since coming to faith, I decided to start digging into the facts (or lack of) on Darwin's theory. My personal search has found that this theory has not a single leg to stand on. Nothing. I've read atheist books on the topic and Christian books on it and creation, is the only logical explanation to me.

This degree of complexity (the human body and all other life forms) could never come from chance or random micro-evolutionary steps. Modern microbiology has essentially put Darwin's theory to the grave for many, many scientist with an open-mind to the facts. The lilliputian world that has been uncovered since Darwin's time, has only shown that the complexity continues to exist and in fact, increase as we learn more. The biological machines that have been uncovered have irreducible complexity...no possibility for random-micro changes that could have brought about their existence. If you saw the biological schematic of many micro-organisms identified today through electron-microscopes, you'd think you're looking at an engineer's blue prints!

Isn't it fascinating how an inanimate universe could produce, randomly, living beings (you and I) to a degree of complexity that we can contemplate the universe. Don't you find this quite improbable, or should I say impossible? What if we covered the world full of children's building blocks and came back millions of years later and found a beautifully designed object. Let's say the blocks put themselves together to form a simple house structure. I can't imagine that anyone would think that anything but intelligent design put them together. I don't care how many storms, ice ages, came and past...you would never get anything that randomly "designs" itself.

If you believe in nothing, then you must believe in evolution and I hope that you are curious enough to look at the facts with an open mind. Because the facts are, there is no such thing as evolution.

Sadly, I also understand today how it doesn't matter what anyone says, does or testifies when it comes to the Truth. At the end of the day, you can only come to faith by the grace of God. Of this grace, I also know that He'll give it to anyone, so long as they meet Him half way. He is the perfect God and He will not impose His will on you. What satisfaction would God have to force his creation to love Him? Either you love righteousness or you don't. If you do, then you'll love God, because He's the only righteous One. This acknowledgment by man doesn't make man righteous, it makes him want to be like God, our Father, as He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus.

During His time on earth, He had the same incredulous attitude from many, even though they witnessed His miracles! Why would he expect any different today, He doesn't. He most certainly can intercede but He needs many believers to amend for the world's iniquities. This is how He works, everything in perfect balance. For this reason, all I can say about anyone that has no Love for God, is that I pity them...because I understand them very much. Faith in today's world is difficult because we're surrounded by countless temptations to sin and this separates us from Him. If any man could simply acknowledge their failures to God, I know that He'll come rushing to their rescue. Because He loves every single one of us to a degree we cannot fathom. Why wouldn't He, He made us! and gave us that special gift, free will.

I pray that we all surrender our wills to Him every day, what could go wrong? I think we'd only learn more and more how to love each other, be merciful to each other and be lovers of justice. Yes that's correct, He's Love and Mercy but He's also Justice. For those of you that don't like the fact that He's also Justice, I'd just like to ask you how much you'd respect your earthly father and/or mother if they never imposed their guidance on you with their justice. Would you have loved your parents more if they let you do everything you wanted and never applied any justice to your misbehavior? Why do we all want to make God out to be nothing but Love and Mercy? (of which He is to an incomprehensible degree). Would we love Him more if we could lie, steal, kill, indulge in pleasures-physical and mental, dishonor Him, hate Him, oppress, etc, etc and have Him not even blink an eye at our vile behavior?

Well...as always, I pray that my only goal with posting to this site is to hopefully prompt someone to seek the Truth, because if you sincerely do, I know you'll find Him...with open arms. He's been waiting for you since the day you were created. :)

May God bless you all!
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandal.org/
http://www.garabandal.com/

We do seek the truth, UnBlinded. It's just not to be found in your religion.
And please...don't hand us your pseudoscience of creationism and I.D. There is nothing to back it up but ignorant speculation and ancient myths.
Oh yes...evolution is real, and abundantly proven. To continue to deny the boatload of discoveries is to embrace ignorance, and that is simply foolish. Even a majority of christians have accepted it.

Hi Piprus,

Do you have anything to substantiate this statement?
"Oh yes...evolution is real, and abundantly proven. To continue to deny the boatload of discoveries is to embrace ignorance, and that is simply foolish."

I assure you that today, it takes more blind faith to believe in evolution than to believe in God. If you can honestly admit that you've read serious books from both groups (believers and unbelievers) and have come to this conclusion, I cannot wait to hear what was the clinching argument for you.

May God bless you Piprus,
Marc

(I will let Piprus deal with teh ID balogna)

Unblinded, you said,

"Sadly, I also understand today how it doesn't matter what anyone says, does or testifies when it comes to the Truth. At the end of the day, you can only come to faith by the grace of God."

So, why are you wasting everybody's time by posting here?

"Of this grace, I also know that He'll give it to anyone, so long as they meet Him half way."

We are EX-christians. We have all gone at least half way (if not all the way), he never showed.

"He is the perfect God and He will not impose His will on you. What satisfaction would God have to force his creation to love Him?"

What satisfaction does he get from allowing untold billions of people to suffer eyernal damnation?

"Either you love righteousness or you don't. If you do, then you'll love God, because He's the only righteous One."

What exactly is righteousness? Oh yeah, it's believing in your god. Is there some point you are trying to make?

"This acknowledgment by man doesn't make man righteous, it makes him want to be like God, our Father, as He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus."

Wanting to believe in god makes you want to be like god. I'm still waiting for you to make a valid point.

"During His time on earth, He had the same incredulous attitude from many, even though they witnessed His miracles!"

Ever seen Harry Blackstone Jr. perform? He did some real amazing things, but pretty much everyone I've ever talked to said it was all tricks: smoke and mirrors. Oh, by the way, I doubt there was a jesus and have seen no evidence that there ever was a christ.

"Why would he expect any different today, He doesn't. He most certainly can intercede but He needs many believers to amend for the world's iniquities."

Why?

"This is how He works, everything in perfect balance."

You call this balence?

For this reason, all I can say about anyone that has no Love for God, is that I pity them...because I understand them very much."

You don't understand us. Your faith has blinded you (oh unblinded one) to anything that fals outside of your beliefs.

Faith in today's world is difficult because we're surrounded by countless temptations to sin and this separates us from Him. If any man could simply acknowledge their failures to God, I know that He'll come rushing to their rescue."

Been there, done that, didn't work.

Were you going to make a point?

"Because He loves every single one of us to a degree we cannot fathom. Why wouldn't He, He made us! and gave us that special gift, free will."

And he will happy let us all suffer forever. Doesn't sound like love to me.

"I pray that we all surrender our wills to Him every day, what could go wrong? I think we'd only learn more and more how to love each other, be merciful to each other and be lovers of justice."

Mind control, brain-washing, suppression of individuality, etc. etc.

"Yes that's correct, He's Love and Mercy but He's also Justice. For those of you that don't like the fact that He's also Justice, I'd just like to ask you how much you'd respect your earthly father and/or mother if they never imposed their guidance on you with their justice. Would you have loved your parents more if they let you do everything you wanted and never applied any justice to your misbehavior?"

I certainly wouldn't have loved my parents if they had tortured me for just being who I am.

"Why do we all want to make God out to be nothing but Love and Mercy?"

At least you are willing to admit that WE make god.

"Would we love Him more if we could lie, steal, kill, indulge in pleasures-physical and mental, dishonor Him, hate Him, oppress, etc, etc and have Him not even blink an eye at our vile behavior?"

Don't love him, don't hate him don't believe in him.

"Well...as always, I pray that my only goal with posting to this site is to hopefully prompt someone to seek the Truth, because if you sincerely do, I know you'll find Him...with open arms."

Aha! The point at last! You're here to shove your religion down our throats. Why didn't you just say so.

"He's been waiting for you since the day you were created."

He knows where to find me. So why don't you mind your own business?

Hi Tigg13,

Thanks for joining in the discussion and I am sorry that you feel so offended by my words. If possible, should you respond again, could you kindly bring some substance to your response. I do try to keep an open mind, this is why I also have books written by atheist in my home.

"(I will let Piprus deal with the ID balogna)"
This statement is very typical, it's clear to me you don't have anything of substance to "help" me turn away from God.

"So, why are you wasting everybody's time by posting here?"
Words that might be a waste of time for someone as hardened as yourself may not be a waste for others. Not all this Web site's viewers have reached your level of aridity.

"We are EX-christians. We have all gone at least half way (if not all the way), he never showed."
Did you ever really love Him?

"What satisfaction does he get from allowing untold billions of people to suffer eyernal damnation?"
From what I've come to understand...under His light, He won't condemn you, you'll condemn yourself, because you'll see the impact of all your hatred and you'll see the countless times He tried to touch your heart and you rejected Him. In the end, every soul that is separated from God, knows that his immense mercy is still upon them and that their suffering is less than they deserve.

"What exactly is righteousness? Oh yeah, it's believing in your god. Is there some point you are trying to make?"
Choosing good in each and every instance of your life, including your private thoughts.

"Wanting to believe in god makes you want to be like god. I'm still waiting for you to make a valid point."
I did give many valid points, based on facts but you ever so casually ignored all of them. Please, show me that you're still alive in there and communicate honestly with me. Where is the substance to your response?

"Ever seen Harry Blackstone Jr. perform? He did some real amazing things, but pretty much everyone I've ever talked to said it was all tricks: smoke and mirrors. Oh, by the way, I doubt there was a jesus and have seen no evidence that there ever was a christ."
Have you ever really sought the truth with a truly objective mind? If you remain puffed up with pride, how is He going to penetrate that heart of yours. We all have to step down from our pedestals, if we're ever going to hear Him.

"Why? (doesn't He intercede)"
Well, he certainly does reveal himself, some of the web links in my 1st post will bring you to some of them. Would you like Him to come down and show His face, He did and we all got together and crucified Him. That's right, you, me and the rest of us.

"You call this balence?"
He floods the world with graces but He does not do it in such a way as to force anyone. He loves and respects you too much to ever force you to choose love over hatred. You're free to do as you wish.

"You don't understand us. Your faith has blinded you (oh unblinded one) to anything that fals outside of your beliefs."
Of course I understand you and I mean all of you because I was just like you. I'm still one that doesn't obey God to perfection (there's an understatement) but my wife and I keep seeking His will. Since we've turned from a life where we literally chased sinful desires, He's blessed us with much more than we deserve. My newborn son is looking at me right now and he is a miracle!

"Been there, done that, didn't work."
Again, did you ever really love Him?

"Were you going to make a point?"
Again, I made many points and included some personal testimony of spiritual manifestations. You also ignored all that I wrote on the topic of evolution.

"And he will happy let us all suffer forever. Doesn't sound like love to me."
Once you know the Truth and you know that He is Love, you also know that you can trust Him completely. Even with those doctrines that are incomprehensible to us. You say forever like if time exists once we pass away. I'm not so sure that time exists once we pass away and I'm quite certain that we simply do not have the mental capacity to understand all of His Wisdom.

"Mind control, brain-washing, suppression of individuality, etc. etc."
Really, I've never been more free. Before finding Him, I was chasseing pleasure, money, power. I would let my mind run free to experience whatever I wanted and time after time, I faced nothing but hardship. Failed relationship after failed relationship. There was some and quite a bit of joy while immersed in my sins but it always lead me down more and more suffering. The suffering that happens as a true believer is bearable, because He doesn't take away His joy and peace.

"I certainly wouldn't have loved my parents if they had tortured me for just being who I am."
I believe that this "torture" will be the separation from God. Once you see God (and everyone does briefly, regardless) the immense suffering will come from knowing that your soul cannot be with Him. In fact, it would be the soul's choice. I'm not so certain that a soul separated from God is even capable of Love. We only get this capacity because He is here with us.

"At least you are willing to admit that WE make god."
So Tigg13, are you certain that those 4 children in Garabandal between 1961-1965 also had nothing but vivid imaginations...that they made it all up? Have you read any of the testimonies? Please try the site "http://www.garabandalny.com/", I should have included this one instead, it's easier to get to the articles and testimonies. If you read with an open mind, I'm certain that you would hear the ring of truth. There really are no ulterior motives at work hear.

"Don't love him, don't hate him don't believe in him."
Well, for a person that doesn't believe in Him, you sure are upset about the eternal condemnation that He reports to us. ?

"Aha! The point at last! You're here to shove your religion down our throats. Why didn't you just say so."
I never hid my point. I'm testifying to the Truth as revealed to me and many others, plain an simple. Why wouldn't I want other people to learn about Him? I'm very thankful to God for the Christians in my life that helped me when I was suffering through a conversion.

"He knows where to find me. So why don't you mind your own business?"
Yes, this God that you don't believe in, most certainly knows where to find you... ? Keep in mind that this is an open forum and if you recall in my original post, I was trying to bring substance to my testimony, as so frequently demanded by individuals at this web site.

May God bless you Tigg13,
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

Unblinded, I am also offended at your words.

"Did you ever really love Him?"

No. Not for one moment of my nearly fifty years did I ever love the god of the Bible.

I think that the Judeo-Christian god-concept is monstrous and damaging to the world. I find the concept of Original Sin to be outright slander against all of humanity.

"In the end, every soul that is separated from God, knows that his immense mercy is still upon them and that their suffering is less than they deserve."

Bullcrap. No one "deserves" to suffer. Period.

"If you remain puffed up with pride, how is He going to penetrate that heart of yours. We all have to step down from our pedestals, if we're ever going to hear Him."

That's possibly the silliest argument I've ever heard. Mortal and fallible humans have to reduce themselves to fawning toadies so that some immortal, omnipotent and omniscient being can communicate with them?

"Would you like Him to come down and show His face, He did and we all got together and crucified Him. That's right, you, me and the rest of us."

Us, kill your imaginary god-man? I think not. And how fucking dare you smear your Jesus-blood on us.

"Once you know the Truth and you know that He is Love, you also know that you can trust Him completely."

No, I've read enough of the Bible to know that Yahweh can not and should not be trusted.

Hello Unblinded. Let's start at the beginning, shall we?

I said "(I will let Piprus deal with the ID balogna)"
You replied, "This statement is very typical, it's clear to me you don't have anything of substance to "help" me turn away from God."

Turn you away from god? I never said I wanted to turn you away from god. You can go worship whomever or whatever you wish. My goal was to point out how arrogant and close-minded you are.

You said, "Sadly, I also understand today how it doesn't matter what anyone says, does or testifies when it comes to the Truth. At the end of the day, you can only come to faith by the grace of God."
And I replied, "So, why are you wasting everybody's time by posting here?"
To which you responded, "Words that might be a waste of time for someone as hardened as yourself may not be a waste for others. Not all this Web site's viewers have reached your level of aridity."

So I ask again, if nobody can come to faith in god except by his grace, as you clearly stated, what makes you think YOU are going to sway anybody? What makes you so special that your words, acts or testimonies can take the place of god's grace?

You said, "Did you ever really love Him?"

Of course I loved him - as much as I could love someone you can't see, hear or feel. Now, can you PROVE that you really love him?

You said, "From what I've come to understand...under His light, He won't condemn you, you'll condemn yourself..."

If he loved me, why would he let me condemn myself? Why do you insist that he has all of the authority but none of the responsibility? How can you say he exhibits mercy when he won't lift a finger to save me from myself? And how can damnation be just - who benefits from this resolution? Not you, not me, not god. How does this solve anything?

"In the end, every soul that is separated from God, knows that his immense mercy is still upon them and that their suffering is less than they deserve."

Am I or am I not the being that god created me to be? If I am then I deserve no suffering. If I am not, then god failed to reach his objective when he created me.

"Have you ever really sought the truth with a truly objective mind? If you remain puffed up with pride, how is He going to penetrate that heart of yours. We all have to step down from our pedestals, if we're ever going to hear Him."

You keep forgetting, I am an ex-christian. I sought him when I was totally convinced that he was real. I was as un-objective as you are. I was begging your god on my hands and knees for salvation, crying out for guidance. I confessed my sins and admitted to being unworthy and full of sin. I openned my heart and pleaded with him to show me his mercy. I spent years waiting for him before I began to realize that he just wasn't there.

You said, "Why would he expect any different today, He doesn't. He most certainly can intercede but He needs many believers to amend for the world's iniquities."
I replied, "Why?"
To which you responded, "(doesn't He intercede)Well, he certainly does reveal himself, some of the web links in my 1st post will bring you to some of them."

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. My fault, I apologize. I meant, why does he need many believers to amend for the world's inequities? And, now that I think about it, it seems to me that his believers are just as responsible for those inequities as everybody else.

"Would you like Him to come down and show His face, He did and we all got together and crucified Him. That's right, you, me and the rest of us."

First off, that was, like 2000 years ago. I don't know what time machine you've been flying around in, but I wasn't there.
Second, are you trying to say that god is afraid of us? No, you wouldn't think that. So I guess you're trying to say that god knows that actually providing us with a real, testable experience won't work because he already tried that and it FAILED. No, that doesn't sound like you either. How about, you want me to feel guilty for something that may not have happened to someone who probably never existed. Yeah, that's got to be it.

"He floods the world with graces but He does not do it in such a way as to force anyone. He loves and respects you too much to ever force you to choose love over hatred. You're free to do as you wish."

But if I don't do exactly what he wants me to do (and with over 30,000 different denominations of christianity out there, there just isn't any way to know for sure what exactly he wants me to do) he will write me off for all of eternity. Can't you see how unreasonable this is?

"Once you know the Truth and you know that He is Love, you also know that you can trust Him completely."

Have you heard about the people who died in Florida when their church got hit by a tornado? They trusted god.

Now, how am I to know this truth? The bible says that, if I am an unbeliever, then it will make no sense to me. I have asked both jesus and god repeatedly to reveal the truth to me and they haven't answered as yet. So that leaves you, Unblinded. Should I just put all of my trust in you?

"You say forever like if time exists once we pass away. I'm not so sure that time exists once we pass away and I'm quite certain that we simply do not have the mental capacity to understand all of His Wisdom."

Well then, what is there to worry about? If there won't be any time in the afterlife then nobody will ever experience anything after we die. No heaven, no hell, no nothing.(Sounds a lot like what the atheists think to me.)

Oh, and I absolutely agree that no human being could ever have the capacity to understand the wisdom of a devine being. Which is why I am so skepical of people like you who think that they know the "truth".

I said, "Mind control, brain-washing, suppression of individuality, etc. etc."
And you replied, "Really, I've never been more free. Before finding Him, I was chasseing pleasure, money, power. I would let my mind run free to experience whatever I wanted and time after time, I faced nothing but hardship. Failed relationship after failed relationship. There was some and quite a bit of joy while immersed in my sins but it always lead me down more and more suffering. The suffering that happens as a true believer is bearable, because He doesn't take away His joy and peace."

You know, what you described sounds a lot like me. Only for me, the "before" part was when I was a christian. I'm much happier and more able to embrace life now.

"I believe that this "torture" will be the separation from God. Once you see God (and everyone does briefly, regardless) the immense suffering will come from knowing that your soul cannot be with Him. In fact, it would be the soul's choice. I'm not so certain that a soul separated from God is even capable of Love. We only get this capacity because He is here with us."

What exactly is a soul? And if, as you stated previously, time does not exist after we die, when would this immense suffering take place?

"So Tigg13, are you certain that those 4 children in Garabandal between 1961-1965 also had nothing but vivid imaginations...that they made it all up? Have you read any of the testimonies? Please try the site "http://www.garabandalny.com/""

I checked out the site. It's cute. Have you ever experience ghosts or poltergeists? Have you ever taken part in a spiral dance or a drawing down of the moon? Have you ever had a go at fairie magick or alchemy? How about vision quests or tarot readings?

Even if these children did experience something (which I have no way of knowing one way or the other) how do you know your god caused it and not some other unexplained phenomena?

"Well, for a person that doesn't believe in Him, you sure are upset about the eternal condemnation that He reports to us. ?"

What upsets me is how "true believers" can equate love and mercy and justice with an abhorrent idea like damnation.

I also get ticked off by people who speak authoritatively about things like "truth" and "faith" and "the soul" under the guise of helping the poor lost souls at ex-christian.net. You may feel your motives are sincere but in reality you have defined us by your preconceived ideas and presented us with the same sermon we've already heard a hundred times. (in some cases, from our own mouths).

Your personal experiences, as well as the websites you provided as substance to back up your case are fine. (Flimsy perhaps, but its still more than most bring).

But when you start preaching, I'm going to start heckling.

I'm sorry friends this Mark guy is mentally ill, you cannot communicate with him at this time, he is a witness to just exactly what is wrong with this country.

He suffers greatly from mental psychosis, he has been BRAINWASHED he's talking out of his ASS, he's delusional, but he's been made to think he's spouting wisdom, he gets false praise from others that have been brainwashed just like him, he is a fanatical brainwashed fundamentalist, he's been told that by his belief he is superior than other humans and he is stupid enough to believe that he is.

We have the cure, but he does not want a cure, so we should not offer one to him at this time.

These type of people are very dangerous to society as a whole.

We should not even try to reason nor communicate with these imbeciles.

They use a use a blog name to portray exactly what they are not.

I think the whole thread should be scrubbed and his total spiel of bullshit be gone, and he should be blocked from this website, and not to let this type nonsense get any recognition. Because there is going to be another idiot out there willing to agreeing with this type of lunacy.

There is a great difference between freedom of speech and a roving lunatic spewing his insane religious propaganda.

Untill society recognizes religious brainwashing as a form of mental illness, we should not allow it to continue, it should be snuffed out at every available convenience. IMHO

tig13, that was a great reply to "Unblinded". You showed a lot of patience and restraint; I suspect far more than I would have in responding to such baseless ad hominem attacks.

I wish there was a way to use multi-colored highlighters on the fundy posts. Yellow could mean "unsupported assertion", orange could be "circular argument", red could be "ad hominem attack". Nobody could say that our pesky visitors didn't contribute "colorful" missives! (And it would be much more efficient than quoting.)

Steven Bently wrote: "I think the whole thread should be scrubbed and his total spiel of bullshit be gone, and he should be blocked from this website, and not to let this type nonsense get any recognition."

I disagree, Steven. I am here as a seeker, and like many have a Christian background and the guilt and fear that comes with that. I am finding that there are a lot of things that seemed to make sense to me simply because I heard them repeated so many times since I was a small child. Many of these things sound a lot like what "Unblinded" is saying. For someone like me, it is invaluable to hear what others have to say in response to unblinded. It is invaluable for me to see that the 'other side of the argument' is the side that makes sense, and those things I have heard repeated to me since I was a child may not make sense when held up to even the smallest amount of scrutiny. I'm glad that "Unblinded" is posting here, and I'm glad that there are ample rebuttals to his posts.

Unblinded wrote: In the end, every soul that is separated from God, knows that his immense mercy is still upon them and that their suffering is less than they deserve.

Where is THAT in the bible?!

Unblinded also wrote: Of this grace, I also know that He'll give it to anyone, so long as they meet Him half way.

I thought the whole point of grace is that God meets us where we are. If we have to meet him half way then the christian doctrine of salvation by faith alone goes out the window...meeting him halfway would qualify as "works". And Paul certainly didn't meet him half way. As the story goes, he was going along his merry way, happily persecuting Christians, when BAM! He gets knocked off his horse and blinded, and given a vision. No half way there.

If God exists, and if He loves us, then He will not hide in evidences without proof, nor will He fry us for using the free will he gave us...instead He will reveal himself so that we can make a decision based on something that has no room for doubt.

As far as I am concerned, the verdict is still out. I guess that puts me firmly in the camp of the Agnostics, even though I used to judge Agnostics as people who were just afraid to commit. Now that I have become one, I realize it is just because it is the most intellectually and spiritually honest position I can take at this point.

Truly,
Jamie.

He also says:

"In opposition to atheism, Christianity does not seem to necessitate a biweekly reaffirmation in an opinion column. Its aim is not to routinely provoke others. It also does not bask in the reception of negative attention."


All I have to say to that is, "what rock has HE been living under??

Oh for pity's sake, Marc/Unblinded:

I'm not going to waste my time or valuable bandwidth writing pages of blog pointing you to the evidence for evolution. You can find it yourself, if you want. Start with the Talk Origins archive. I'm not your teacher. You try to convince me it takes more "blind faith" to believe in evolution than in a god or gods? Where is any blind faith needed to look at evidence and come to a conclusion? You want to believe the first human was made of mud and magically brought to life by a divine blow, go ahead. I've other things to think about.

My response to Jamie, so you're an agnostic, at least you may have an open mind, but I wonder why you would question what Marc wrote if you did not believe some of what he wrote were true?

Let me propose this to you, there is a higher source that lives in the clouds above, his name is Clod, although Father Clod has never been seen by anyone and is invisible, I know that he has un-ending love, compassion and grace for me, and I how do I know this? It's because of my personal experience with Father Clod, and I have personally witnessed the miracles that the power of what Father Clod can do.

Now if you do not believe in Father Clod as I do, then you are a tarnished person although you may be shinny on the outside with Gold paint, but deep down inside, you're a worthless pile of lead, and of no value to society or to the world, but if you will believe as me, then you're better than Gold.

Now, why would you prefer to believe what Marc wrote over what I wrote?

What I wrote is true, because I said it was true and I believe it.

Marc wrote what he wrote because he read it out of a book that was written by men over two thousand years ago and are not living to verify what they wrote.

But, I am living and I can verify what I wrote, because I choose to believe what I wrote to be true, yet you would prefer to believe what Marc wrote.

It's as if, his invisible deity is more credible than my invisible deity.

What I wrote was divinely inspired by Father Clod to me today and I have witnessed his unending grace and his miracles and felt his love.

This just goes to show that anyone can write anything about any subject, but it does not prove that by writing something down is even remotely true.

It's sounds like you've got a long way to go, I hope not.

Hi all,

I'd like to apologize to all of you for anything I wrote that comes off as elitist or arrogant. Believe it or not, I don't normally post my beliefs to any Web sites, I generally spend my time with my family, fitness and read way too much. In reading, I do choose many works that I believe have been inspired by Saints. For this reason, some of the things I wrote about, like "what may happen to our soul", "the existence of time in the afterlife" probably shouldn't have been included, the "lack of time" bit really was a "what-if" type of statement. I should focus on the Bible, the one book we've all read. Nor should I be describing anyone as being arid, this is disrespectful and an act of arrogance on my part. Not to mention the fact that I'm being judgmental as well.

With regards to Astreja's response to loving Jesus:"No. Not for one moment of my nearly fifty years did I ever love the god of the Bible."
I just wanted to point out that this makes you quite clearly someone that isn't an ex-Christian. You've never been a Christian because by definition, ex-Christians, once believed and as such, did love Jesus. The reason I ask the question so often, is that I believe that this is really the defining difference and I just wonder if anyone ever really loved Him at this site? It's just an open, honest question and if it stirs you up, maybe, just maybe were getting close to discussing something that has substance. For me, I love Him, Jesus, because everything I learned about Him indicates someone that I can respect. If you examine closely everything said about Him, He does everything out of love.

For Steven Bently, please tell me what I did to offend you so much. Is my opinion about a personal revelation and the topic of evolution really that offensive? Please tell me how my words could hurt you so much that you sound like you're ready to commit me to an insane asylum? At least Jamie is able to recognize that allowing Christians to respond, keeps the options open for those people that come to this site looking for "direction". If hating God, or disbelieving in Him (as you may respond) is the best option for everyone, then my psychosis should come through and help everyone join you in living a life with your philosophy and beliefs.

Jamie, by meeting Him half way I only mean that our wills must be turned to Him. I don't believe that Paul was ever forced, he always had the freedom not to choose Jesus. He received a tremendous grace and it touched his heart so much that he presents himself to us as someone that could never stop loving God. Paul was able to see his failures and quickly realized the magnitude of his debt to God. I think that Paul's immense love of Jesus is a direct observation of Jesus' parable of the two debtors that had their debts removed. Which one loved the person that cleared his debt the most?, well....the one with the greatest debt. Paul, persecuted Christians and recognized his large debt and because of this, I'd say that his zeal for God is a direct reflection this parable.

*** Personal testimony ***
When I made a mistake in my life, I received a grace that allowed me to really examine myself to see what I was made of. All I found was duplicity, impurity and tremendous selfishness. This is how I realized that, in fact, I had always known that I was these things, but I ignored my conscience. This was the moment, for me, where I realized that my conscience had become almost completely numb from always choosing my way. I had always tried to lead a good life but I was doing so using my own fabricated code of morality and it always resulted in pain.

Once I realized this about myself, the New Testament, a book that never meant anything to me, aside maybe being a collection of stories with some nice moral lessons, started to really make sense to me. My thirst to learn more about it has really become unquenchable and for the most part, I do keep this to myself, family and close friends that initiate the topic.

In order to stay true to my original objective, of providing a post that, hopefully, has some substance, I'll elaborate on my rose scent experience.

I guess, from what I'm reading, I'm pretty sure that most of you believe that the roses I smelled were just some psychotic manifestation. I do find it interesting how my mind is so powerful that I can create the illusion of roses. Please know that the moment I smelled them, I remember at that very instant having asked Saint Mary if she would be able to protect me where I was heading. I was hiking with my dog (back in 2005) while praying and was going by a trail that had nudist warning signs on it. In fact, I can admit that I didn't believe that this rose scent was anything more than coincidence. I ignored the rose scent as I had to hurry to do something else (well, the fact is that I thought I could evangelize a little to this area by leaving some loving bible quotes on laminated cards, while the place was deserted at sunrise) and I promised myself that on my way back (about an hour later) I would scour the exact area (I noted the exact location) to try and find the source of that scent. I walked up and down the area and could never find the scent. After a while, I mumbled to myself something to the effect, "Well, that was odd, let's get out of here, I'm entering this in my journal, something I cannot explain definitely occurred here." and instantly, the scent returned. I stayed still at this moment and the scent was faint and sweet and in some way, I couldn't seem to get enough. I would take deep breaths and I found the scent to be very pleasing and so pleasing that I wanted to take deeper breaths but the result was always the same, just a beautiful scent. I took one step and it was gone. I tried again to find it for just a little while and could not get it back. As God is my witness, this is how it happened.

In response to your question on why I would post here, I'm sure it's simply because of similar reasons as Saint Paul. No, please don't think that I think I'm anywhere near him. It's just that I too had a very large debt to God and since I know that He's forgiven me, something in me can't help but share with others some of the things He's shown me.

Although God is completely not needing of anything from us, it does please Him to have those that love Him become His instruments. My efforts to share with others, while attempting to never be forceful, rude or condescending, is a way to glorify His name. As stated in http://www.tlig.org/print/en/messages/422/ he doesn't mind us to "evangelize for Love with love". Do I do this properly or perfectly, impossible! There's no doubt in my mind that my pride could and does rear it's ugly face. For this I do apologize as it is never my intention to communicate in a way that is disrespectful to any of you. God knows that I really am the least worthy to be blessed with the ability to love Him.

*** Start - Evolution ***
Tigg13, please, you must admit that your last post is a complete copout. You say "I'm not going to waste my time or valuable bandwidth..." to my request for even a little substance to your rebuttal to my comments on evolution. ?

Let me try to add a little more substance for all of you, here are some FACTS on what we've learned about the biochemistry of vision (stuff that was impossible for Darwin to ever know during his time):
[WARNING: It should be obvious that the value of the following 3 paragraphs is more to help us all get an appreciation for the complexity, than to discuss vision itself.]
***** Start - Biochemistry of Vision*****
"When light first strikes the retina a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. (A picosecond is about the time it takes light to travel the breadth of a single human hair.) The change in the shape of the retinal molecule forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retinal is tightly bound. The protein's metamorphosis alters its behavior. Now called metarhodopsin II, the protein sticks to another protein, called transducin. Before bumping into metarhodopsin II, transducin had tightly bound a small molecule called GDP. But when transducin interacts with metarhodopsin II, the GDP falls off, and a molecule called GTP binds to transducin. (GTP is closely related to, but critically different from, GDP)
GTP-transducin-metarhodopsin II now binds to a protein called phosphodiesterase, located in the inner membrane of the cell. When attached to metarhodopsin II and it's entourage, the phosphodiesterase acquires the chemical ability to "cut" a molecule called cGMP. Initially there are a lot of cGMP molecules in the cell, but the phospodiesterase lowers it's concentration, just as a pulled plug lowers the water level in a bathtub.
Another membrane protein that binds cGMP is called an ion channel. It acts as a gateway that regulates the number of sodium ions in the cell. Normally the ion channel allows sodium ions to flow into the cell, while a separate protein actively pumps them out again. The dual action of the icon channel and pump keeps the level of sodium ions in the cell within a narrow range. When the amount of cGMP is reduced because of cleavage by the phosphodiesterase, the ion channel closes, causing the cellular concentration of positively charged sodium ions to be reduced. This causes an imbalance of charge across the cell membrane that, finally, causes a current to be transmitted down the optic nerve to the brain. The result, when interpreted by the brain, is vision."
***** End - Biochemistry of Vision*****

Take away any of these intermediary steps and you don't get vision. Folks this was apparently caused by micro-changes in the human body over millions of years. For some reason, the dysfunctional eye, when it was missing some of it's crucial components kept "sticking" around until, thankfully, some micro-changes occurred that introduced the missing components to vision. Nevertheless, the mindless "evolution" found a way around the multitude of obstacles to eventually create a being that could see! Lucky us, were hear as living proof of "evolutions" fantastic work. Where are all those intermediary beings in the evolutionary process?

There is nothing to substantiate anything with regards to evolution, nothing. Hence the reason, no one could give me even one single iota of evidence. I lived my entire life believing this stuff and I've been reading book after book to find something and I always get nothing. Whenever they try to explain any evolutionary process, there is this fantastic "time" element that is used to bridge massive gaps between species.

Well...enough on evolution...
*** End - Evolution ***

Because it's been made abundantly clear to me that, today, many people here would never believe in God, nor would they ever love Jesus, I'd like to propose something for all of you. Why don't we all try to live with the end in mind, if not as a thank you for God's gift of life, then maybe for family members that we leave behind. Despite the fact that many of you don't acknowledge the sanctity of mind and body (since we're nothing but a collection of molecules "evolved" into an intelligent being) many of you will likely agree that this way of living, with the "end in mind" seems like a logical approach.

The reason I propose that we do this is such that we all make a conscience effort to listen to our consciences. If you do this sincerely...turning away from hateful remarks to family, releasing grudges, ending all unwarranted hates, being the same person to everyone, ending secret lives and vices, getting rid of all hypocrisy and duality, etc... If you do this, because you think it's a good way to live, I firmly believe that God's grace will fall on you. By living this way, you will be seeking righteousness and you'll also find that your attempts at success in this area will inevitably fail. Regardless of this failure, God (yours too, even if you don't acknowledge Him) will recognize your constant efforts and I pray that your willingness to, indirectly, try to do His will, will result in His love penetrating your heart.

May God bless you all, it's been a pleasure.
Marc
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

Unblinded: With regards to Astreja's response to loving Jesus: "No. Not for one moment of my nearly fifty years did I ever love the god of the Bible." I just wanted to point out that this makes you quite clearly someone that isn't an ex-Christian.

Ah yes, the "No True Christian" card is being played yet again. But in a sense you are correct, Marc: I consider that I was only nominally Christian, having undergone involuntary baptism at the age of three months. I have never said the Sinners' Prayer. I went to Sunday School a few times. I chose not to be confirmed in the church.

But I have read large portions of the Bible and continue to be baffled by Christianity. And very, very worried about its effect on society.

And increasingly furious as I continue to uncover evidence of the atrocities that "Christians" committed against my heiðinn Scandinavian ancestors. I come here to support "true" ex-Christians and to focus my anger to laser precision.

If you examine closely everything said about Him, He does everything out of love.

Like the Parable of the Ten Minas from the book of Luke? I. Don't. Think. So.

In order to stay true to my original objective, of providing a post that, hopefully, has some substance, I'll elaborate on my rose scent experience... Please know that the moment I smelled them, I remember at that very instant having asked Saint Mary if she would be able to protect me where I was heading... going by a trail that had nudist warning signs on it.

I myself have had numerous rose scent experiences. Unlike you, I attribute them not to the Judeo-Christian god nor to Mary but to Raistlin Majere of Dragonlance fame. To each his own, I suppose.

But, nudists? You prayed to be protected from nudists?? Please tell me you're... No, I don't think you are joking.

And I find that very frightening indeed.

To my Blessed Brother Marc,

Dear one in Jesus you haven't offended me in the least, for I know within the Blessed Heart Of Mary your intentions are pure. I have cited the Rosary 15 times and taken a sacrement to the Blessed Lamb of God and his only begotten son, Jesus the Christ.

Surely it was in his grace Saint Paul, that said those that are pure in Heart will touch the Blessed Heart of Mary and her son Jesus.

For without Jesus, we are all as filthy rags, not worthy to take the next breath, we must constantly pray and seek the Blessed Heart of Mary and her blessed son Jesus the Christ.

I shall this day humble myself and slay me a lamb and offer it as a sacrifice to God in hopes of his returning Mercy and Grace that he may remember my soul and bless it with his Holy Mercy And Pure Grace.

As per: Our Last Letter of OUR LADY'S MESSAGE OF GARABANDAL

I, your mother, through the intercession of Saint Michael the Archangel, ask you to amend your lives. You are now receiving the last warnings. I love you very much and do not want your condemnation. Pray to us with sincerity and we will grant your requests. You should make more sacrifices. Think about the passion of Jesus.

Shalom and peace my Brother and may God find peace and Mercy and Grace in your soul for acceptance in the Blessed Heart of Mary and her Blessed son, Jesus the Christ saviour....amen...and....amen

Until our Souls meet again in Heaven....may you continue to savor the sweet smell of rose petals of our Lady of her grace, I shall ask God to convene your soul for now.

In his passionate service I remain his in his Holy Will, peace be to all that read this and his Holy Scriptures.

Its funny that peopel beleive blindly from a book written in third person, as i know about how christianity was founded, i also know why it was founded, Marc, in my honest opinion I think youre a child, i dont mean it as a compliment, although christians take a child of God as a compliment, I mean to say youre a spoiled brat that thinks everyone should think as you do, or else they must be wrong. You ever heard the song what if God was one of us? Think of this for a moment, what if God was an ex christian, and has been through all the fanfare that this religion had to offer, realized that God was, a God that forgot his/her true nature and decided that there was something sinister? Its so pathetic when christians come here thinking they will win people over, when people here are EX CHRISTIANS meaning theyve been there done that, and they will more than likely NEVER GO BACK! sighs, when youre religion falls, as it has in the past, i will break open a glass of spumante and have a party, until then take your religion and shove it up your butt, Jesus may love you but everyone else thinks youre an asshole.

Hi all,

Astreja, I cannot fathom this type of anger as I have never been personally hurt by extremist activity but like you, I am always appalled at their misdirected actions. Healing from this kind of hatred is something I hope and pray I never have to experience. Personally, after living through such hatred, I would be very fearful of crumbling under the weight of the temptation to stay anchored in that hatred.

Please, Astreja, with all due respect, would you be kind enough to provide details of at least one of your rose scent experiences? I would sincerely like to hear it, with honesty please. With regards to the parable of talents, I really don't know what to say about that one. I've always found it somewhat hard but I just have to trust Him. I know He'll help me understand it better someday. But then...I guess I better just keep using that special talent I have for scoring goals and help my team win another tournament! Sorry...just another Christian trying to be funny. I sure love hockey though... Isn't it amazing how water just happens to expand when frozen, unlike nearly all other materials/substances that contract with loss of heat. It's just one of the many, many signs of creation that I've come to appreciate. Of course, I'm referring the fact that if it behaved normally, our lakes would freeze from the bottom up. But i digress...

BTW, I was not praying for protection from the nudists, but for protection from myself and the temptation that I might be exposed to, if some of them had been out there at that time. As I expected, there was no one there at sunrise and I was able to quickly go through the area to do what I wanted (leave a few cards that God might choose to be catalysts to a person's self-evaluation and turning from impurity). The area is actually known by many to be an area of sexual indulgences by same sex persons.

Steven, thanks for your time. I must admit that, despite the heavy sarcasm, I'm still happy to see that you were willing to post that Garabandal message.

Muttmutt1978, please try to understand that my posts here are not necessarily directed to those people that look for hate. There are still many other people that browse these posts and many of them still open to hear Him. Maybe, just maybe one of those cooky Christians that are about to jump ship will hear God talking through my words. ? I know, it seems far fetched to me too but He can do anything! So....maybe He'll choose to make my pathetic words touch someone's heart and help them see that all He wants is to be loved.

For any Christians or potential ex-Christians that hit this thread, please recognize that I did try to get someone to give me a response with substance. I was hoping for someone to give me that clinching argument that sold them on evolution and I never received one single argument. I was expecting a solid scientific explanation to my rose scent experience and found no one willing to offer one. Instead, I was met with much hatred. If I were to continue posting to this site, I fear that I could end up succumbing to the temptation to return evil with evil and for this reason, I'm endeavoring to end it with this post.

I think my biggest mistake with my posts was that I spoke of choosing righteousness in all that we do. If I had kept the posts to my rose scent experience and evolution, I likely wouldn't have rattled cages. The problem with bringing up topics like righteousness and sin is that the person raising the topic can't help but come across as self-righteous. I know that I am nothing of the sort but that is definitely hard to convey.

May God bless you all and please, please don't forget that He loves us all to folly! :)
Marc
http://www.tlig.org/
http://www.garabandalny.com/

Astreja, I cannot fathom this type of anger as I have never been personally hurt by extremist activity...

Well, here's the abridged version. In the year 800 CE, Charlemagne had 4500 Saxons murdered when they refused to convert to Christianity. In the year 1000 CE, King Olaf of Norway forced Christianity upon that country, and Iceland as well, by taking hostages. Shamans were tortured. People were burned alive in their houses.

Don't even get me started on the early-1600's massacres in Wurzburg, Germany. That's a really sore point for me.

All of the above were attempts to commit cultural and often physical genocide against my family and their neighbours. Obviously my DNA managed to survive, else I would not be here writing this. I may never get to know exactly how much was taken from my kin. My task now is simply to do what I can to stop it from happening again to me or anyone else.

Please, Astreja, with all due respect, would you be kind enough to provide details of at least one of your rose scent experiences?

Indeed. Let me start off by saying that there's an odd synchronicity between my life and that of the aforementioned Raistlin, purportedly a fictional character. Very similar early life, interests, stress reactions, ways of looking at the world. I identify rather strongly with the character. And the scent of rose petals is one of the character's "trademarks".

The first incident I clearly recall happened about seven years ago, in a downtown store. I was attempting to divorce an abusive spouse at this time, and spent most of my time in a state of fearful hyperarousal. I found comfort and encouragement in reading and re-reading certain passages: "I will do this"; "If we stop living because we fear death, then we have already died."

As I stood there in the aisle of the store that afternoon, I suddenly could smell roses. It lasted for the better part of a minute. I interpreted it as a metaphorical "Hi, there" tap on the shoulder, and as an affirmation that I had the courage to deal with my problems.

Were these experiences imagined? Possibly. We interpret them as coming from radically different sources. Interesting about both being roses, though.

Unblinded, sorry for taking so long to reply - its been a busy day.

You're just bound and determined to get me to say something about evolution, aren't you?

I'll admit, this isn't my strong suit. I am not a scientist or a scholar. But, because of your prompting, I did a little research and taught myself some very interesting things.

First , lets look at your bio-mechanics of vision approach. I'd like to use an analogy if I may. Let's take an automobile for example. In order for you to travel from point "a" to point "b" Your car would have to have an ignition system, a battery, some spark plugs, fuel, pistons, a transmission system and a drive train to turn the wheels.

If you were to remove any of these parts the car won't work. So if one were to try and build a car one piece at a time, they wouldn't be able to use it until all of the pieces were brought together and assembled correctly. This is the same point you are making, correct?

But, what if you had an electric car? Or a steam engine? Or a bicycle? Or a horse and buggy? All of these vehicles would accomplish the same task without all of those internal combustion type parts. And, if you look at other critters on this planet you will find a whole lot of ocular sensory organs that, while simular to our eyes, do not do the job the same way. Flys, spiders, cats, squids, scallops all show us that sight is possible without human eyes.

As with most creationists, you think of the evotionary process as akin to throwing a dozen monkeys into an auto parts store and waiting until they just happen to put the right parts together in the correct order - it could take millions of years, but eventually it will happen.

Your answer is that some really smart guy sat down and just figured it all out. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it? Except no automobile was ever just designed by one person working from scratch.

Automobile designers spend years studying engineering and technology as well as looking long and hard at every other car that has ever been built. This year's design is really just a modification of last year's - which was a modification of the year before that, which was a modification of the year before that, and so on and so on all the way back to that horse and buggy.

That's how evolution works! Think about it, if things happened as you say, we'd have to ask ourselves, 'why didn't Henry Ford include power windows, anti-lock brakes and air bags in his Model T?' Its little changes that happen over a long period of time that have given us modern transportatiom.

Now, getting back to those eyes of yours. Since you obviously know so much about them, haven't you ever wondered why your intelligent designer only gave us two eyes instead of three or four - or maybe just an extra one in the back of head (that would come in handy). And how come we can only see a tiny slice of the visible spectrum? And why did he install six muscles to move each eye when three would have been plenty.

Oh, and wouldn't it have been a good idea not to build our eyes BACKWARDS? You know, with the photoreceptors pointing towards the light and not away from it. And maybe run the blood vessels beneath the eye's surface instead of on top (that would clear things up a little). And then there's that darned optic nerve that could have been attached to the back of the eye but instead punches through the eye leaving us with a pair of blind spots. It doesn't sound like your designer did as good a job as he could've.

And then there's the molerats. You ever heard of them? They live their entire life underground in complete darkness. They are 100% blind. And yet they have eyes! You have to cut through a couple of layers of skin and fur to get to them, but they're there. Now, why do you think your designer did that?

You also mentioned something about massive time gaps as a reason why evotion doesn't make sense to you. This is kind of like saying you don't like baking because it requires massive amounts of heat. Why shouldn't our planet be billions of years old or trillions of years, for that matter. What real evidense do you have that shows that our world couldn't be that old?

Oh, I did run across an interesting fact that should make you feel better, tho. According to research done by Nilson and Pelger, it only takes about 400,000 generations for a photosensitive cell to evolve into an eye - a mere drop in the bucket by evolutionary standards.

You also wanted a "clinching argument" to support evolution. To tell you the truth, I've never really cared about evolution. To me its a moot point, what matters to me is that we're here, not how we got here. So I've never needed a clinching argument. I've just considered it to be the most reasonable answer that I've ever heard. Could there be a better answer? Sure, but unless or until I hear it, I'm going to stick with evolution.

Now, how about you providing some clinching arguments that support ID? You know, something that doesn't include an attack on evolution as its main thrust. I want to know why there MUST be an intelligent designer. I want facts that support it, scientifically verifiable evidence, a repeatable process that can be used to date antiquities that shows that the world is only 6000 yers old.

Because so far you sound like every other creationist - you think there must be a designer because you can't comprehend evolution and it has never occurred to you that there might be other possible reasons for why we are here.

Hi Astreja and Tigg13,
I just wanted to thank you both for your posts. I'm really busy today and tomorrow and probably won't be able to respond as fast as usual. I have a few thoughts that I really want to add but I don't have time to organize my thoughts. ;)
Very soon, I hope (not that I'm expecting you to be waiting with bated breath). :)
God bless!
Marc

UnBlinded wrote:
"...During His time on earth, He had the same incredulous attitude from many, even though they witnessed His miracles!..."

That's because they were Mickey Mouse miracles. Can't speak for anyone else here (and wouldn't even if I could), but, to get me to start reconsidering the superfluousness (superfluidity??) of a god concept, I'd wanna see something along the lines of the stars in the night sky suddenly migrating into some recognisable text, say, "Have a cigar; I promise you won't get cancer. Yours truly, god."

With regard to the scent of roses, this is not at all unusual amongst the practitioners of transcendental meditation. The way the Maharishi describes it, "the mind is like a chair; you pull on one leg and the other three come with it." As the mind settles into a more harmonious state, various other harmonious things are almost certain to occur. It's the flipside of being a nasty person. Who have you ever met that _only_ steals? Or _only_ lies? That's not how it works; y'do one nasty thing and it calls up a whole constellation of its nasty pals.

With regard to picoseconds. I think most of us are up to the powers of ten. Light moves at about 300,000 km/S. How thick is a human hair? I wanna do the math myself; I'm not saying you're wrong; I just want to check it.

Evolution of the eye. I can't urge you strongly enough to read the relevant pages on organic photocells, up to and including the eye, in Dawkins' book "The Blind Watchmaker".

On the expansion of water when it freezes: you are making the textbook example of the "funny how the water always makes it to the shore" error. See my post in the Science And Religion section of this site, for my, and others', comments.

And finally, on evolution at large. On Earth, carbon is king. It's the recombinant element on this planet. All bets, and all analogies, are _OFF_ when you're talking carbon. Never lose sight of that when you're talking about the self-organising and self-replicating nature of various elements. *Carbon is just plain different.*

Another thing not to lose sight of is that "it's", with an apostrophe, is not the possessive form for "it".

Sheesh! You go away for a couple months, and when you come back what's changed? Absolutely nothing.

Unblinded,

”it seems to me that maybe a little post that has some substance could be well received by this site?”

Depends on how one defines “substance.” What followed this statement (including subsequent posts) seemed to me to be not much more than ignorant hubris.

“On this point, I'd like you to know that I have once witnessed the physical manifestation of the scent of...my mother has also received this grace many times...her co-worker...also noticed a very distinct scent of roses...My father also once witnessed this manifestation with my mother. I really don't know what to say about these spiritual gifts, except to say that I thank God for them as they certainly help strengthen faith.”

I don’t doubt it would strengthen your faith. Indeed, hallucinations (meaning sensory perception in the absence of an observed, external stimulus) have been a part of religious practice for millennia. Some cultures actively pursued hallucinations for this very reason, in some cases using sensory deprivation, extreme environments, and sometimes going as far as using hallucinogenic plants (e.g., peyote, opium). And some studies suggest that up to 39% of the general population experiences some form of auditory, olfactory, gustatory, or other form of hallucination (see here). In other words, it’s more common than once thought. That others close to you have seemingly had similar experiences might suggest other, more mundane causes.

To put it another way, I’m not terribly impressed with your personal witness of the smell of roses. First, because I have also had several hallucinatory experiences with smell and taste over my lifetime (most have been quite pleasant). Second, because it seems to me rather arrogant to presume that the Almighty prefers strengthening your personal faith over fixing more pressing problems for which only It could be responsible. Third, because adherents to other religions and/or philosophies, as well as practitioners of various forms of meditation have reported similar experiences. That is, how can you possibly be certain that the source is your god and not your mind?

”As well, I was agnostic for most of my life and thought it certain that Darwinian evolution had explained away God.”

Evolution doesn’t explain away God, nor has it ever attempted to. It is seemingly at odds with the Biblical account, but it’s also at odds with every other creation myth around the world. However, as a scientific theory it has no religious agenda (though certainly some evolutionists do). Rather, it is to explain observed phenomena. It has so consistently described the biological model that there is no significant debate in scientific circles as to its basic principles. It is so well-attested that even creationists (a 5% minority among scientists) have been forced to acknowledge that at least microevolution (sometimes called “change over time”) occurs. Attacking it is like attacking gravity; it's useless to do so!

“Since coming to faith, I decided to start digging into the facts (or lack of) on Darwin's theory. My personal search has found that this theory has not a single leg to stand on. Nothing. I've read atheist books on the topic and Christian books on it and creation, is the only logical explanation to me.”

Based on the content of your posts, it looks like you’ve spent much more time in the pages of creationist literature than you suggest. Would you care to indulge us by listing a few of the books or other materials you’ve read?

“This degree of complexity (the human body and all other life forms) could never come from chance or random micro-evolutionary steps.”

This statement itself illustrates a failure to grasp even basic evolutionary theory. It is not about chance, though chance plays a role. Natural selection – which is completely non-random – is the final arbiter of whether a random genetic variation, mutation, or migration propagates to future generations of species. I recommend visiting Understanding Evolution for a primer on the entire theoretical framework.

“Modern microbiology has essentially put Darwin's theory to the grave for many, many scientist with an open-mind to the facts.”

This greatly overstates the situation. While molecular biologists have not found a viable theory for the evolution of DNA or RNA, what this constitutes is a gap, not a nail in the coffin of Darwin’s theory. However, other advances in the field of microbiology continue to shed light on how the mechanisms of evolution function at this level. Though certainly not the only authority (or the only article by an authority) on the subject, this is expressed very well by the American Society for Microbiology in their Statement on the Scientific Basis for Evolution, which reads in part:

“…the validity of evolutionary principles is supported by [1] readily demonstrated mutation, recombination and selection, which are the fundamental mechanisms of evolution; [2] comparisons based on genomic data that support a common ancestry of life; and [3] observable rates of genetic change and the extent of genomic diversity which indicate that divergence has occurred over a very long scale of geologic time, and testify to the great antiquity of life on Earth. Thus, microorganisms illustrate evolution in action, and microbiologists have been able to make use of the microbes’ evolutionary capacity in the development of life-improving and life-saving innovations in medicine, agriculture, and for the environment.”

Even so, microbiology is not the only source of evidence, and it is a mistake to conclude that because one line of evidence doesn’t fully account for everything we observe that the baby should be tossed out with the bath water. Geology, paleontology, biochemistry, embryology, physiology, biogeography, biodiversity, genetics, and even history – each of these domains and disciplines (along with many others) demonstrates in its own way the validity of evolution. Combined, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor.

As for your “many, many scientists,” I’m curious about who they might be. Care to illuminate us?

“The biological machines that have been uncovered have irreducible complexity...If you saw the biological schematic of many micro-organisms identified today through electron microscopes, you'd think you're looking at an engineer's blue prints!”

Yes, they are certainly awe inspiring in their intricacy and complexity. I recommend reading “The Blind Watchmaker,” “Finding Darwin’s God,” and “Climbing Mount Improbable” for material that addresses this very topic. To start you off, however, try reading this article for a broad but brief intro to the concept of how evolution explains complexity.

“Isn't it fascinating how an inanimate universe could produce, randomly, living beings (you and I) to a degree of complexity that we can contemplate the universe. Don't you find this quite improbable, or should I say impossible?”

As has been stated many times by people far more qualified than I, chance does indeed play a role, but non-random natural selection is the deciding factor as to whether random genetic drift, mutations, and variations appear in successive generations. When one begins to understand the non-random nature of selection, and the incremental way evolution increases complexity, one realizes that it is not at all impossible, and is actually highly probable.

“What if we covered the world full of children's building blocks and…the blocks put themselves together to form a simple house structure. I can't imagine that anyone would think that anything but intelligent design put them together. I don't care how many storms, ice ages, came and past...you would never get anything that randomly "designs" itself.”

Paraphrasing Paley doesn’t help your case. No one has ever stated that all of the pieces and parts existed all together at one time, and magically assembled themselves overnight to form complex structures. You really should read more.

It’s notable that you said “I can’t imagine.” There’s the rub, isn’t it? Your personal incredulity won’t allow you to consider any possibility except the one you prefer. This is aggravated by the existence of a false dichotomy (false dilemma) between creationism vs. evolution. Once again, you really should read more.

“If you believe in nothing, then you must believe in evolution and I hope that you are curious enough to look at the facts with an open mind.”

This is nonsense. Where do you get the idea that simply because one accepts evolution as a valid theory it means abandoning everything else? Many, many people believe in gods – including your god – while still accepting science as a valid source of information on how everything works. With respect to everyday faith, hope, or belief, most of us are quite a lot alike, including you and me.

As for having an open mind, I submit that you’re projecting your own failure to have one on us.

“At the end of the day, you can only come to faith by the grace of God.”

Tigg already asked you what your purpose here was, but your answer leaves much to be desired, so I’ll ask again:

If we can only come to faith by the grace of God, what is your function here?

Your posts reek of condescension, and your knowledge of the topics you’re discussing is severely limited. I’m afraid that if your god is real, It simply must find a new HR person, because you’re failing miserably as Its representative.

“Of this grace, I also know that He'll give it to anyone, so long as they meet Him half way.”

Ok, I’ll play. If we refuse this “gift” (or don’t know about it), we’re punished for eternity.

“He is the perfect God and He will not impose His will on you. What satisfaction would God have to force his creation to love Him?”

Someone holding a gun to your head hasn’t removed your ability to make a free choice either, but the consequences for not doing what you’re told would be dire. God offers a “gift” at the point of a gun (eternal punishment). Take it, or suffer the consequences. I call that an imposition.

A gift does not (or should not) have conditions, provisos, or quid pro quos. Love does not punish the object for failing to love in return.

“Either you love righteousness or you don't.”

Another false dilemma seasoned with arrogance and condescension.

“He had the same incredulous attitude from many, even though they witnessed His miracles!”

Maybe these alleged miracles weren’t miraculous enough. Maybe they never happened at all, and were made up later.

“Would you have loved your parents more if they let you do everything you wanted and never applied any justice to your misbehavior.”

Would you love your parents if they threatened eternal punishment simply for not believing something they supposedly said when you weren’t around?

For myself, I’d still love them but wouldn’t want to hang out with them as long as they continued to make unreasonable demands accompanied by threats.

“If you can honestly admit that you've read serious books from both groups (believers and unbelievers) and have come to this conclusion, I cannot wait to hear what was the clinching argument for you.”

I can honestly admit that I’ve read serious books & materials produced by both sides and still accept evolution. The clincher: evidence.

“Did you ever really love Him?”

Did you ever really consider how offensive and presumptuous this question is? Marc, you have an incredibly inflated ego to think that somehow you are in a position to judge anyone here.

“I did give many valid points, based on facts but you ever so casually ignored all of them.”

So far, I don’t think anyone has ignored any of your points. As to whether they were valid or not, that’s debatable.

“Well, for a person that doesn't believe in Him, you sure are upset about the eternal condemnation that He reports to us?”

For myself, I find the concept of eternal punishment offensive, and those who promulgate the idea that somehow people deserve it for simple non-belief to be misguided and full of self-loathing. In other words, it has more to do with a sense of justice than it does with belief in some imaginary being.

“Why wouldn't I want other people to learn about Him?”

Most of the denizens of ExC are quite well-educated about your god, having spent a fairly large portion of their lives as Christians, Bible students, even clergy or other church leaders. We don’t need any instruction from you, thanks.

”I generally spend my time with my family, fitness and read way too much. In reading, I do choose many works that I believe have been inspired by Saints.”

Apparently, you don’t read enough, and expanding your choice of literature would be of immense benefit to you and those you choose to correspond with.

“I should focus on the Bible, the one book we've all read.”

If you wish, though I don’t think you’ll find the audience to be any more receptive. Also, be warned that some here are probably more familiar with the Bible than you.

“I'm pretty sure that most of you believe that the roses I smelled were just some psychotic manifestation.”

A hallucinatory experience isn’t always connected with a disorder, psychotic or otherwise. Even so, in your situation it needn’t have been a hallucination at all.

You were outside hiking, right? Not only that, but you were outside hiking in an area frequented by other people. Presumably, the weather was conducive to your hiking (not below freezing temperatures, which deadens the sense of smell slightly and discourages nudists :)), yes? Furthermore, you mention that returning to the spot again you smelled the same scent but couldn’t find its source.

I’m a hiker. Smells outside are often diffuse and their sources hard to locate or identify. Not only that, but smells can travel quite a long way on a breeze, and even linger sometimes. I remember smelling gasoline once while I was on the Appalachian Trail, with no apparent source nearby. It remains unexplained to this day (not that I’ve tried to find an explanation), but I don’t think it was a gift of grace from Almighty Petroleum.

It’s possible that the source of the smell was actually some distance from you, or a combination of scent particles nearby that smelled enough like roses to cause you to think it was, in fact, roses. That you found it in the same area as you did previously is actually a strong argument for a local (and natural) source.

Just because you personally can’t explain something doesn’t mean God did it.

“…here are some FACTS on what we've learned about the biochemistry of vision (stuff that was impossible for Darwin to ever know during his time)”

Here’s where you trot out the “irreducibly complex eyeball” canard.

Perhaps you weren’t aware, but Darwin’s theory has changed dramatically in the last 150 years. No, he couldn’t have known anything about the biochemistry of vision, but that’s beside the point. Modern scientists who accept the theory of evolution are quite aware the construction of the eye, and can explain it in evolutionary terms (see here for one example, or one or more of the sources already suggested or linked to).

“Take away any of these intermediary steps and you don't get vision.”

Are you certain? What about the other varieties of eyes found in nature? Not all of them are equally efficient or complex. Some are more so, some less, but they all confer a survival advantage on the species to which they belong. That’s all that’s required. The pieces don’t need to all exist at once and be put together exactly the way we observe it today for a species to benefit from some kind of vision regardless of how limited. Indeed, we observe eyes in nature corresponding to every stage of development hypothesized by science.

“Folks this was apparently caused by micro-changes in the human body over millions of years.”

You got it.

“Where are all those intermediary beings in the evolutionary process?”

See above.

“There is nothing to substantiate anything with regards to evolution, nothing. Hence the reason, no one could give me even one single iota of evidence.”

Maybe no one here gave you an “iota of evidence” because a) they have better things to do; b) aren’t that interested in the topic; c) don’t feel knowledgeable enough (but actually are); d) wish you would do you your own damn homework.

If you follow the links provided or read any of the materials some of us have already suggested, you’ll find that there is a great deal of evidence to substantiate evolution. Look for the same from creationism, and one immediately notices the complete lack of positive evidence. All creationists have is gaps in our understanding from which they attack evolution. Not with solid science of their own, but with conjecture, shifting goalposts, emotional appeals, and threats of eternal damnation.

For more see here, here, here, and here. And this is hardly scratching the surface. You can do your own search by typing “evolution evidence” into Google or whatever your preferred search engine is. The books mentioned can be found at Amazon.com, local bookstores, and possibly even your local library (for free, perhaps).

Finally, I’d like to ask you to read what two prominent scientists who are also Christian think. In this article two scientists, a psychology professor, and the President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary weigh in on whether a person can believe in God and evolution. Also, read “Can a Conservative Christian Accept Evolution?” by Michael Shermer (read it here).

Whether you remain a Christian or not, you should at least understand that you’re barking up the wrong tree by attacking evolution.

“Whenever they try to explain any evolutionary process, there is this fantastic "time" element that is used to bridge massive gaps between species.”

Time is a significant factor. Why do you want to dismiss it?

”Well...enough on evolution...”

Here’s hopin