Good for them. It's about time someone challenged Bush on his faith-based programs. Maybe now, since there isn't a blank check in congress anymore, we can finally get rid of this mess.

My child is being held in a Faith-based program called Teen Challenge. (Court ordered "rehab", or prison if he doesn't complete "rehab".) He is being persecuted for not speaking in tongues,(basically they teach to replace drug addiction with hyper-religiosity) he is being interrogated about masturbation,(a sin against Jesus) (did he do it, does he think about it etc...), told that Jesus heals everything,(if you're depressed, it's your own fault for not accepting Jesus as your personal savior; so request for psychiatric counseling DENIED) and basically being pressured to be a recruit for TC. There is absolutely NO RECOVERY, they don't believe in 12 step programs, they will lie to Probation because they feel it's best for you to be in prison to be "broken" so that you will finally accept Jesus and come back to TC. It's UNBELIEVABLE. They lie about their statistics of recovery success, because they only use the numbers from recruits that sign on and work for TC for 5 years or more. It's a great money scam, and they really present well on their web site. YES, I hope there is an investigation and lawsuit, because Teen Challenge gets OUR tax money, plus residents are all placed on food stamps. Bush supports this organization. (See his picture on web site)... Students are all taught that to vote for ANYONE pro-choice is going against God...Now, isn't it wrong to force RELIGION when you're receiving faith-inititive money from our government? Anonymous for now.

[to above poster]

Holy shit, is this really going on? I'm sorry for my lack of education on the subject, but I didn't expect america (supposedly the freest nation on earth, though if you believe that shit...) to be replaced overnight with George orwells 1984, indoctrination centers and all.

Religion does allot of bad stuff, but one thing you can't fault them on: inventive terminology. No better words in any language exist for expressing raw hatred and distain. Take one of my favourite words they invented, Sacrilege...Teen challenge is a fucking SACRILEGE!

Just pondering...

If the challenge is found to be constitutionally supported, and American citizens can challenge this federal initiative, this will set a precedence that will explode in the U.S. Judiciaries face. Which is why I don't think it will pass - pardon the skeptcism, just don't believe career lawyers/judiciaries are going to miss this, it's what they get paid to do for a living - parse words by subjective interpretation of the constitution.

However, for the sake of hoping they drop the ball :-) Lets hypothesize, on such a precedence... one where the gov't is found to be culpable for injecting/supporting god in mainstream America by financially backing religious organizations...

Key component here, is "injecting" god/religion into mainstream America, using federal authority.

If precedent is set: I want in on the class action lawsuit that holds the U.S. gov't responsible for;

God in the Classroom
God on my currency
God in courthouses
God in the pledge of allegiance
God/religion on an IRS form for tax exemption
Etc.

If we are to have freedom of Belief/religion, the Gov't is supposed to protect everyone's right of freedom, not enforce/allow particular belief systems (theistic) a dominant role in placing their brand of belief on everyone else.

If a particular belief system wants a kick-back from taxes, then let the states vote on it, and tax their citizens for the money. And, if a person doesn't agree with their state taxes, and where the money is being spent, they can vote the idiots out of office, or leave the state for greener pastures. At least the entirety of the U.S. tax base, will not be supporting particular states/areas that have a heavy concentration of churches on every corner. The message there is... set up church, make money, don't work for a living, live off of the U.S. tax revenues.

This is a joke... if the U.S. is concerned about injecting money into rural and poor regions of the U.S., then they should spend about then minutes trying to figure out how to get that needy state on its feet... that the U.S. federal gov'ts job... If they can't figure out any other way to get money into a state economy, besides using the "faith/god" option, then they need to fire a slew of incompetent gov't employees, basically the entire dept. of labor, etc.

Perhaps, I'm being too hard on the whole department, as it's typically your senior leadership in a cabinet (labor), that makes these cries to the president, etc. to get support. And, knowing some states have nothing other than "churches" on every corner, I could see someone's hair brained idea to keep promoting the only industry some towns, regions, and states know.

If a town, region, of state has no resource production, then they need to figure out how to funnel money into that area while getting the people employed... I just don't perceive "faith" based systems as having the same oversight as other businesses that must abide by "other" gov't laws, like OSHA, HEPA, etc., etc.

The U.S. Gov't has created a way to launder money into impoverished states, but it can't refuse other states who want to capitalize on the cash cow, if one state gets it, they all get it.

What the U.S. Gov't is doing, is programming society to believe that they need to rely more on the U.S. Gov't, and the U.S. Gov't will take care of them, but only for the faithful. They remove the incentive for a "state" to seek other means to keep their citizens employed. They not only remove the incentive to keep the state gov'ts honest, the penalize those companies/industries who must compete with these "faith" based, and subsidized organizations.

For instance, a non-religious marriage counselor/psychologist opens their doors for business. Their business is regulated to the hilt by federal and state law to abide by code, professional accreditation, etc., etc.

However, one block away from this person who has had to spend years getting their degree, accreditation, internship, etc., a church has a sign that says, marriage counseling for the faithful. Religious personnel are not regulated by professional accreditations, standards, federal safety code, medical liability code, etc., etc.

What the U.S. Gov't has done, is create an anti-trust situation, in my most "humble" and opinionated opinion. They have "commercialized" religion, as an "institution"... e.g., "FAITH", etc. The company of "FAITH" in "god".

They have created a "monopoly" using that federally funded backing, so that those who don't have the "company logo"... "FAITH IN GOD", are left working their asses off and trying to make ends meet (call it the "new" minority business owner - the non-religious).

Okay, rant over. I hope it all works, out... I can think of a myriad of strategies, to kick them in the nuts on this one, but again, so will the lawyers and judiciaries, and thus, they are not going to feel compelled to allow a citizen to "challenge" a presidential policy/code, without a lot of fight, as they will be opening the proverbial "case of whoop ass" on themselves, and they know it.

I don't like monopolies... I don't like the ones where individuals own a market, nor the ones where a majority of a nation owns the market. In both cases, individual citizens are forced into a corner, and their "freedom" of "market" choice, or "freedom" of "non religious" belief is forfeit - that's called economic tyranny.

And, on a sidenote; just because the dems have a better hold of the political environment, and they can oversee events a little better (a welcomed event), doesn't mean they aren't going to pander to the religious left, and religious based welfare programs. Their parties, are going to have to run for office, in 24 months, they aren't going to slap the hands of some of their religious supporters that got them elected.

The blank check will "always" exist, in this economic framework, unless congress is no longer in power and controlling tax revenues, and national currency flows. When that happens, all bets are off, and we are going back to the wild west, where the law is what one wants to make it.

The only hope is to keep their money pointing to the most "beneficial" needs of a nation, not to the most "beneficial" needs of a monopolized and venerated belief system.

Hope they get the bastard.

My sincere wish was for some other religious group (Jewish, Hindu, Pagan, Muslim, etc.) to apply for faith based funding just to see what would happen. Or if it has happened, to be able to find out about it.

I really wanted to see the Christians sqwak when "their" shoe was on someone else's foot!

Anony - I hope your kid makes it through Teen Challenge okay.

TC IS a SACRILEGE! Thank-you for your input, everyone. My son called tonight, and he's losing it mentally. He says he hates God. Those power ridden idiots told him that if he is not on board with
the goal of being part of God's army that they are building, then he's gonna be "kicked out". Which means prison.He's NOT prison material,he's a very sweet kind person. And very handsome... His "counselor" told me he's rebellious against the holy spirit. ... I now totally HATE religion. And I don't want to hate.I'm on the verge of tears, and have this frog in my throat. I do indeed HATE TC. Our president makes me ill, smiling and hand shaking and approving this POW prisoner camp. I wonder what he'd do if one of his twins was in TC. (And the other one was a lesbian with Parkinson's Disease. Betcha he'd change A LOT of rulings he's made in the past...Most men end up in prison with the last thought" you WILL return to TC, because once you step foot in here, it was because of God. You HAVE to return to be a part of God's Army".... and work for free so TC can pocket the money. Let's make money off broken souls! Let's break them and abuse them and torture their minds. Those TC mother fuckers.If there is a real Saten, he's running Teen Challenge. I KNOW this is gonna be public knowledge soon.....Instead of building more prisons, or churches, think of what we could do if we had NON-RELIGIOUS rehabs that people could afford....

TC mother.

TC Mom:

If I were in your situation I would consult a lawyer, or contact the ACLU or the Southern Poverty Law Center. It sounds to me like the court ordered rehab is unconstitutional, if that is the case you have grounds for legal action.