A common female western Muslim claim. Abysmal in light of the evidence, but a common enough claim. Hungh....I guess it is a lot like Xian rhetoric. Must be that whole Abrahamic "God spoke reality really only to and through us. And thus, everything we believe and do MUST BE good, right, and rational" thing. No matter how absurd. Again, despite reason, evidence, all that experiential and empirical modern (esp Western) persons demand for warranting any claim. Leading naturally, of course, to, yes, the denial of all those "wonderful" old fables and myths of a pre-scientific and pre-enlightenment age. Hey, aren't Saudi women still educated to believe that the earth is flat?

I like to believe that a person's religion is up to them. The danger occurs, I think, when people are sure they are right. They are sure God has chosen them above all others.

But hey, its JMHO.

Elder Norm

Do these stupid fuckers even read the book(s) their mythology is based upon?

She has no idea that she is subserviant to the book written by a man.

@Agnostic Anarch

Probably not, ate least not 'read' in the sense that we 'read' something...

Love

Grandpa Harley

Wafa Sultan is also an atheist ex-muslim woman (and a careeer psychologist,to boot) who had enough guts to realise islam for what it really is; Backwards, Ethically reprihensible and anti-intellectual. She then proceeded to verbally roast a muslim cleric on national tv, his only response was to call her a "heretic", he had no awnsers to her assertions other than angry (and vaguely embarrased) looks. Now THAT is freedom from the "shackles" of society, western or otherwise.

Besides, the "shackles of western society" on women are illusionary, women are free to do what they want at the end of the day, can the same be said of a country under muslim law?

Here's my theory;

Don't judge people by what religion they are, judge them by HOW religious they are.

Most of the budhists i know, for example, they have families, they work, they watch TV, they drive cars, etc. Budhists monks, on the other hand, shave their heads, wear distinctive robes and avoid contact with women. Budhist monks have allot more in common with Christian monks than they do with ordinary Budhists.

Same thing with the Pope and the Deli Llama, Bush and Osama, Inquisitors and Terrorists, and so on.

Quite often, it happens that a devout Christian who smells like urine will preach on the street, while other christians, WHO WORSHIP THE SAME GOD, will cross the street to avoid him.

"Do these stupid fuckers even read the book(s) their mythology is based upon? "
Probably not

To the second Anonymous;

I once read something 9I forget where, now" about "A Clockwork Orange".

Aparantly, the meaning of the Title is, a "Clockwork Orange" is something that looks a live but is, in fact, a machine. The Author's point, if I recall correctly, was that a slave is a slave. Wheather your master is God, the Devil or the Almighty State, you're still a slave.

Personally, I think anti-intelectualism is worse than slavery. If you can't even THINK or QUESTION what you've been told, you're worse than a slave, you're a zombie.

If one cannot recognize the Orwellian nature of their defense when claiming to be "totally liberated" and then later assert "I can only (as commanded by Islam) submit to my Creator — God the Almighty", they are too deluded to be reached by logic, reason and common sense. Good luck with your "liberation" sucker.

Since Ayaan Hirsi Ali (or Magan) lived in my country for a couple of years until she was practically (and completely unjustly) banished, I would like to add that she WAS a Muslima until she became atheist, and thus knows from experience how "free" Muslimas are.

And it may be very satisfying to condemn Western society - Set knows that there is much that needs desparate improvement - but it at least is based on the belief that everyone is equal. That cannot be said of Islam.

Remember how free Muslima´s were in Afghanistan? How free are they now in Iran? What percentage of women that has their clitoris removed is Muslima? I wonder.

I know that the intense subjugation of women in countries like Afghanistan is actually a fairly recent occurrence, about the mid 70's. Before that, they were almost as free as western women. Almost. But that's not to say that the current standards can't be justified by their holy book. So to say that the way women are treated in the middle east is an improper understanding is an unjustifiable position.

Here are my two cents for this women, it is my anti shahadah!

"I testify that Allah does not exist and is not worth of worship. I testify that Muhammad is not the messenger of Allah"

There no point in wasting your time for this imaginary boogeyman. (no peace be upon him)

Uh-huh. Riiiight. Can we say, "Brainwashed"?

totally liberated from the shackles placed on Western women by the expectations of their societies or the "freedom" that their so-called democratic governments bestow on them

Ah yes...... Liberated from the shackles of, among other things, expecting the fire department to rescue women/girls in a burning building even if the are probably not dressed in accordance with the current (Sharia) dress code for women...

Deamond wrote:

Personally, I think anti-intelectualism is worse than slavery. If you can't even THINK or QUESTION what you've been told, you're worse than a slave, you're a zombie.
***********

Thank you for saying that. For some reason, I could not submit to being a zombie no matter how hard I tried. I was so "out of it" that I didn't even know I wasn't supposed to think or question. I got so many accusations of being stupid and, logically, the anitdote for stupidity is to learn. Asking questions is an obvious method by which to learn PROVIDING anyone will attempt to answer.

I suspect the horse and buggy culture I come from is about the same as the strict Islam communities so far as women are concerned. One thing that hits me between the eyes about these very strict religions where women are forced to submit to the men is that they don't really.

I saw two separate middle-aged Muslim couples in the grocery store. In each case they spoke a language I did not understand. But I could hear tone of voice and obviously I could tell whether the man or woman was talking and who used what kind of tone.

What I noticed was that the woman was in charge. No questions asked. The man would ask and try to get the woman to comply with his wishes around the groceries. Nope. Didn't happen. In both cases the men provided all kinds of alternatives but the Queen was in charge. And that was that.

(Probably they didn't realize I could pick up on their disagreement in public if I didn't know the language but tone of voice and body language says so much.)

I have seen that kind of thing so much where I come from that I question whether women are truly as oppressed as Westerners think they are. There is one thing regular westerners don't have that these women have and that is the security of knowing their man can't leave them no matter how badly they hen-peck. And you can rest assured, there are professional (or highly expert) hen-peckers in such societies.

My mother determined not ever to be like her mother-in-law. Fact of the matter is, she just developed her own style. Oh the fights my parents fought at the supper table! The whole family would get involved and take sides, usually against Dad.

I'm such a sucker for the under-dog that I would challenge anyone who sided against Dad even if most of the time I wished he were dead. I think he probably took out his frustration on us kids because on one hand was his father under whose thumb he lived, and on the other side was this hen-pecking Valentine he had thought was so wonderful. (I don't think he ever clued in how she manipulated things. I think his trust and confidence in her integrity was complete.)

I have said and will say it again, I think my mother was the biggest feminist in the land. For some reason I cannot be a feminist, I hate women's studies every time I encounter them. It seems that by law every course must also cover women's issues. I don't know why, but I just hate it. I just want to know what's what; not what some feminist said. Most of the time the feminists don't make a lot of sense. And those who do I have no problem with.

I have to say that even though I am an ex-christian, my subconscious mind still hasn't completely de-programmed itself from the "submission to men" crap.

It doesn't matter how loudly that letter writer screams it. I do not believe that she is free from the male dominance stuff.

My guess is that compared to the fundamentalist Muslims, she is a liberated woman.

Ruby:
"I have said and will say it again, I think my mother was the biggest feminist in the land. For some reason I cannot be a feminist, I hate women's studies every time I encounter them. It seems that by law every course must also cover women's issues. I don't know why, but I just hate it. I just want to know what's what; not what some feminist said. Most of the time the feminists don't make a lot of sense. And those who do I have no problem with."

Lorena:
I don't completely disagree with you, Ruby. But I have to say that the rights women are, and have been, fighting for are far more complicated and inconspicuous than dinner-table fights.

The issues come up when women try to do things that men have traditionally controlled, like being CEO's of companies, succeeding in sports, getting family support to complete a university degree, or earning equal wages as men who do exactly the same job.

You are right. At home, women reign. In the workplace, we are exploited and unappreciated.

The Muslim's claim that she is truly free reminds me of what I've heard priests say about "authentic freedom." According to them, we confuse genuine freedom, being able to think what we want and do what we want, with license. "Authentic freedom," on the other hand, is being free to do what is moral and actually choosing to do so.

To me, being made to feel guilty because I have lustful thoughts whenever I see a sexy 25 year-old woman, and having to suppress those thoughts or confess them, is not freedom. Not being able to see certain kinds of films, watch certain kinds of television shows, or listen to the music of my choice all the time, is not freedom. This is how most people describe a lack of freedom.

Priests need to admit this. Using long-winded, jumbled rhetoric to dance around the fact that we don't have a lot of freedom as Christians if we want to live according to the Faith, is dishonest. "You can't" is the opposite of "you can,"in other words.

Some Christians feel sadness and regret because they see other people enjoying life and experiencing happiness while Christians are stuck in the drudgery of strict morality. So they try to convince themselves that they're the ones that are really free, and society is enslaved by their pleasures.

Go, Mimi, to Iran, Pakistan, or any other muslim country. They are the land of your paradise. Go and live there happily everafter.

What a misguiding and distorting description of the reality of muslims! Leave, Mimi, canada and go to your paradise, you liar.

Islam is the religion of terrorists, violence, inhumane torture and, above all, of no tolerance. Whoever can justify the cruelty of the relgion. Nobody. Go to hell, Islam.

Mimi, do you believe that a woman should be covered from head to toe? Do you believe that she should at least have her head covered? As a muslim, shouldn't you believe that a woman should wear a burka? If you do not believe this, are you a muslim? Do you wear a burka? Would you? Wouldn't you agree that a society in which a woman should wear a burka is a male dominated society? Why shouldn't it be that men should wear the burka, and women should not? What is your opinion of the burka? Is it sexist? Could it be that the burka is a leftover of a male dominated era?

Just wondering.

Islam is a tragic failure to clean up the mess left by its predecessors in the judeo/christian/islamic complex.

Its proud and brilliant history is just that HISTORY, Long lost in the past,

Today islam is a stagnant and reactionary faith of broken and brutalized peoples who wait for their god to save them from their enemys. Occasionaly a few muslims get impatient and take action on their own, But most bow and grovel and beg for a god to end the bombings and occupations and pillagings and persection that are the main experience of todays muslim.

Meanwhile the older judeo/christian part of the complex has given birth to a new cult called democracy, a sick and violent cult that is obsesed with global dominion, and whos exclusionary policys require the destruction of EVERY alternative, including islam.

Islamic fundamentalism is itself a recent reaction, born of desperation and fear. While judeo/christian/democracy fundamentalism is born of arrogance and power and privlege.

ALL fundamentalist movements are anti intelectual, but when we allow fundamentalist though to combine with wealth,power, and technology,. ...... do i realy have to explain this?

If you haven't seen this article, you GOTTA check it out:

THE ARTICLE

Oh man. I...I'm speechless. I really am. I feel dumber as an individual knowing that somewhere, a group of humans mentally wrangled over how to face Mecca when you're in space.

I feel ill for the human race.

fjell