By John PaulosA recent international study in the journal Science by Professor Jon Miller of Michigan State University and his associates finds that a growing number of Americans do not believe in the theory of evolution.
In fact, the survey of 32 European nations and Japan reveals that only Turkey has a higher percentage of its citizens rejecting Darwin.
The author attributes the results in the United States to religious fundamentalism, inadequate science education, and partisan political maneuvering.
With regard to the latter Miller notes, "There is no major political party in Europe and Japan that uses opposition to evolution as a part of its political platform."
But there's another contributing factor to this opposition to evolution that I'd like to discuss here. It is the concerted attempt by creationists to dress up in the garb of mathematics fundamentalist claims about human origins and to focus criticism on what they take to be the minuscule probability of evolutionary development. (Even the conservative television pundit and ace biologist Ann Coulter has lent her perspicacity to this mathematical endeavor in her recent book.)
Creationists argue that the likelihood of, say, a new species of horse developing is absurdly tiny. The same, they say, is true of the development of the eye or the mechanism for blood clotting.
Creationists' ArgumentA bit more specifically, the standard argument goes roughly as follows. A very long sequence of individually improbable mutations must occur in order for a species or a biological process to evolve.
If we assume these are independent events, then the probability of all of them occurring and occurring in the right order is the product of their respective probabilities, which is always an extremely tiny number.
Thus, for example, the probability of getting a 3, 2, 6, 2, and 5 when rolling a single die five times is 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 or 1/7,776 -- one chance in 7,776.
The much longer sequences of fortuitous events necessary for a new species or a new process to evolve leads to the minuscule numbers that creationists argue prove that evolution is so wildly improbable as to be essentially impossible.
The FlawThis line of argument, however, is deeply flawed.
Leaving aside the issue of independent events, which is too extensive to discuss here, I note that there are always a fantastically huge number of evolutionary paths that might be taken by an organism (or a process) over time. I also note that there is only one that actually will be taken.
So if, after the fact, we observe the particular evolutionary path actually taken and then calculate the a priori probability of its being taken, we will get the minuscule probability that creationists mistakenly attach to the process as a whole.
Misunderstanding this tiny probability, they reject outright the evolutionary process.
Here's another example. We have a deck of cards before us. There are almost 10 to the 68th power -- a one with 68 zeroes after it -- orderings of the 52 cards in the deck. Any of the 52 cards might be first, any of the remaining 51 second, any of the remaining 50 third, and so on. This is a humongous number, but it's not hard to devise even everyday situations that give rise to much larger numbers.
Now if we shuffle this deck of cards for a long time and then examine the particular ordering of the cards that happens to result, we would be justified in concluding that the probability of this particular ordering of the cards having occurred is approximately 1 chance in 10 to the 68th power. This certainly qualifies as minuscule.
Still, we would not be justified in concluding that the shuffles could not have possibly resulted in this particular ordering because its a priori probability is so very tiny. Some ordering had to result from the shuffling, and this one did.
Nor, of course, would we be justified in concluding that the whole process of moving from one ordering to another via shuffles is so wildly improbable as to be practically impossible.
The actual result of the shufflings will always have a minuscule probability of occurring, but, unless you're a creationist, that doesn't mean the process of obtaining the result is at all dubious.
The Science study is disturbing for many reasons, not the least of which is that there's no telling to what length the creationist trunk of the G.O.P. elephant will evolve.
link
http://www.carm.org/evolution/evodds.htm
Problem is, we KNOW the end points... thus the probability of a horse is 1 in 1, pretty much the same for humans... to ry to apply the rules of probailty backwards (which is what you're trying to do) is a nonsense.
As was pointed out inthe UK newspaper 'The Independent'
"...it is unsurprising that we find ourselves in a universe that is fine tuned for the existence of galaxies, stars and life. We could hardly have evolved in a universe that was not..."
1)organisms reproduce with heritable variation.
2)many more organisms are born than will survive to reproduce (natural selection)
3)therefore evolution ensues
Where is the flaw in my logic?
Yes, the earth is the "ideal" distance from the sun, that's why we humans are the only creatures "who" die by the THOUSANDS annually from malignant melanoma due to sun exposure. Not ants, not cockroaches, not turtles, not lizards, not fleas NOOOO.....but "God's children". Ironic?
And let's see...God made what?...God made a SQUID'S eye more efficient than the human eye? I mean, we have to wake up and cram little plastic things in our eyes every day just to be able to see....meanwhile, Mr. Slimmy-of-the-Sea swims around with perfect vision?
Sound's like the "Designer" didn't have his priorities straight.
"GOD did everything!!!...class dismissed!"
Hell, pay me...I can teach that.
Scram!
It assumes that evolution is random, which it is not. Natural selection is called selection because it weeds out certain genetic combinations. The genes do not just randomly roll around to form new permutations.
Compare it to picking a small, round pebble from a swiftly streaming river and then declaring that it is very coincidental that it should be round, and not square, oblong, pyramid-shaped, or somesuch. When, of course, the pebble was made round by the continuous abrasion by the water.
The stupidity of people is truly stupendous.
My ability to think one thing and have my fingers type another is truly stupendous as well :)
Interestingly, over a lifetime the odds drop to 79,746 to 1. Why? Because of the number of years lived, the number of possible exposures to lightning, the number of lightning strikes per year, etc., and these weren't even all accounted for. This becomes even more interesting when you consider that a human's lifespan isn't especially long (particularly compared to the age of the universe, in which case it is infinitesimally short), yet the odds drop dramatically.
It doesn't appear the above cited study accounted for all the lightning strikes, and certainly didn't count injuries due to lightning strikes. Odds are (pun intended) the chances are much smaller when these things are accounted for.
How is this applicable? When you consider that there may be up to 125 billion galaxies (we'll round off to 100 billion), with 100 billion stars per galaxy, there are as many as 10e22 star systems in the universe. That's 1 with 22 zeros after it. Let's say that only 50% of these has planets orbiting them (there are probably more), and only 20% of these is capable of supporting life in any form. We're reduced to about 100 planets that is capable of supporting life in the entire universe (that we know of).
There's more to it than that, of course, and my math could be faulty. Creationists might add the probability of all the ingredients for life existing in the same place and combining in the exact manner necessary for life. However, the probability of all the ingredients for life existing in the universe is 100% (because they obviously do - here we are), and there may be 100 planets on which all the necessary ingredients are gathered. Whether or not they have or will combine is another matter.
What are the odds of these ingredients combining and in just the right way? We don't know. We don't know for a fact that the only combination of elements that supports life is that which we find here on earth, but by what else can we base our estimates on? Nothing. So, we're stuck with trying to calculate the chance of all the elements combining just as they have here on earth because that's all we can presently observe. Because of this, every odds estimate regarding the chances of life occurring are can be no more than speculative at best.
Life may be an extremely rare and special occurrence. Intelligent life is perhaps more rare. But no matter how you slice it, there could be 100 other planets (or more - remember my math might be screwed up) that have the right conditions and elements, reducing any odds estimate accordingly.
Someone check my math, please!
"Sound's like the "Designer" didn't have his priorities straight."
dont compare your priorities to Gods...Pride is usually downfall..
It does not seem possible for mutations to account for the diversity of life on earth, at least not in the time available. According to Professor Ambrose, the minimum number of mutations necessary to produce the simplest new structure in an organism is five (Davis, 67-68; Bird, 1:88), but these five mutations must be the proper type and must affect five genes that are functionally related. Davis, 67-68. In other words, not just any five mutations will do. The odds against this occurring in a single organism are astronomical.
Mutations of any kind are believed to occur once in every 100,000 gene replications (though some estimate they occur far less frequently). Davis, 68; Wysong, 272. Assuming that the first single-celled organism had 10,000 genes, the same number as E. coli (Wysong, 113), one mutation would exist for every ten cells. Since only one mutation per 1,000 is non-harmful (Davis, 66), there would be only one non-harmful mutation in a population of 10,000 such cells. The odds that this one non-harmful mutation would affect a particular gene, however, is 1 in 10,000 (since there are 10,000 genes). Therefore, one would need a population of 100,000,000 cells before one of them would be expected to possess a non-harmful mutation of a specific gene.
The odds of a single cell possessing non-harmful mutations of five specific (functionally related) genes is the product of their separate probabilities. Morris, 63. In other words, the probability is 1 in 108 X 108 X 108 X 108 X 108, or 1 in 1040. If one hundred trillion (1014) bacteria were produced every second for five billion years (1017 seconds), the resulting population (1031) would be only 1/1,000,000,000 of what was needed!
But even this is not the whole story. These are the odds of getting just any kind of non-harmful mutations of five related genes. In order to create a new structure, however, the mutated genes must integrate or function in concert with one another. According to Professor Ambrose, the difficulties of obtaining non-harmful mutations of five related genes "fade into insignificance when we recognize that there must be a close integration of functions between the individual genes of the cluster, which must also be integrated into the development of the entire organism." Davis, 68.
In addition to this, the structure resulting from the cluster of the five integrated genes must, in the words of Ambrose, "give some selective advantage, or else become scattered once more within the population at large, due to interbreeding." Bird, 1:87. Ambrose concludes that "it seems impossible to explain [the origin of increased complexity] in terms of random mutations alone." Bird, 1:87.
"boomS said...
WTF is a "degree" in Christian Apologetics, anyway?
"GOD did everything!!!...class dismissed!"
Hell, pay me...I can teach that.
Scram!"
as if you cared.....
For crying out loud, what is the percentage possibility that any one of us would be here on this forum at this moment in time? If we consider that only one sperm from one ejaculation accounts for each of us out of millions, nay, billions of sperm produced over the lifetimes of our fathers, and then we add in the sperm that created our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and their parents, and their parents, and so on, then the chance against any of us being here seems astronomical. However, the reality is, we are all here. Therefore the chances for us being here right now are exactly 100%.
Just like the chance of all of us meeting on the Net on this topical thread is 100%. The actually chance that intelligent human life would evolve on this planet in exactly the way it has, is exactly 100%. The reason it is 100% is because here we are! It happened!
Statistics sound great on the news, but statistics can be made to say nearly anything. People tend to believe in statistics, but everyone also realizes that most of the time they are complete bullshit.
It is at best disingenuous to cut & paste materials belonging to someone else without citation. At worst, it is plagiarism. Please cite your sources.
It appears you cut & pasted from this page, or you actually own the book from which the article is excerpted, and didn't bother citing the authorship.
As for a rebuttal, I'm not familiar with the book and it doesn't look like anyone has posted anything online critiquing the work. However, there was an exchange between Mr. Ashby Camp (the author of your little article above) and Dr. Douglas Theobald of Talkorigins.org. Mr. Camp apparently published a critique of the 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution. Dr. Theobald saw fit to publish a response to the critique. It appears that Mr. Camp, being that he's a lawyer and Church of Christ minister rather than a scientist, made some errors in logic and science during the exchange. But read for yourself.
Um, don't compare my priorities to "Gods", you say? So, there's now MORE than one God, I take it? Do you even know how to make the word "God" possessive?
(this should be good)
Anyway, Birdie, biblegod doesn't exist, hence why I was speaking hypothetically---yes, H-Y-P-O-T-H-E-T-I-C-A-L-L-Y---because that's all you, any Muslim, any Buddhist, any Scientologist has....is a subjective "hypothetical"--- untestable/unfalsifiable.(please study what that actually means. Thanks.) Furthermore, in using said hypothetical, I was assuming that when "God" was sitting at his "celestial drafting table" deciding which creature would have the best eyesight, he would've at least been smarter than a "Jaybird" in his forethought, but I guess I assumed wrong.
= )
Sorry, Jaybird. Your information comes from a website that cites Percival Davis' information inside "Of Pandas and People", a well-known creationist book. I've read it. In fact, I own it. The book is bad. And this information is most definately wrong. Only 1 in 1000 mutations is nonharmful? Absolutely wrong. Most mutations are neutral - neither helping or harming the organism. Consider this: there are genes which contain fewer than 350 amino acids. Assuming we have a gene with 330 amino-acids, there are 3 possible ways to point-mutate each location. That gives 990 possible point mutations. If 1 in 1000 is non-harmful, that means that all possible mutations to that gene except one are harmful. But, when you compare genes across species, you rarely find an identical sequence. Compared within and across species, we are talking about thousands (and possibly tens of thousands) of different varieties of a single gene - and they all work. What does that tell us? It tells us that there's a whole lot more than one sequence that works, and that tells us that the "1 in 1000 are non-harmful" claim is flat-out false. In fact, it's appauling just how bad this argument is. It should be embarrasing for creationists that their information is so laughably bad.
It is at best disingenuous to cut & paste materials belonging to someone else without citation. At worst, it is plagiarism. Please cite your sources. It appears you cut & pasted from this page, or you actually own the book from which the article is excerpted, and didn't bother citing the authorship."
www.carm.org ---you are absolutely correct jeff, and i apologize for not showing the source, I did cut and paste a piece of this page from CARM, actually because it makes no sense to retype the info. myself that is so long, (And i figured if i put the web site for it, on this post here you guys would blast me for it anyway).
"Webmaster said...Creationist statistics and percentages are computed using no comparative information and are therefore functionally useless. For instance, what are the chances that Benjamin Franklin would appear on American money? 50/50? 1 in a million? There is simply no way to compute such an asinine question. We don't know the variables, so we can't come up with a percentile possibility."
Even if this is true, you can bet that what ever the percentile possibility IS, it's probably a pretty darn slim....
"boomSLANG said...
JayBird: "dont compare your priorities to Gods..."
Um, don't compare my priorities to "Gods", you say? So, there's now MORE than one God, I take it? Do you even know how to make the word "God" possessive?
(this should be good)"
lol...God's...
i realize i have to break everything down barney style for broomstang...lol sorry for the error....
"boomslang said...I was assuming that when "God" was sitting at his "celestial drafting table" deciding which creature would have the best eyesight, he would've at least been smarter than a "Jaybird" in his forethought, but I guess I assumed wrong. "
you know what happens when you guess and assume...especially when you assume wrong ....
You show your weakness by attacking me personally, try to concentrate on the topic of discussion...if you can't i understand.
No, it was "Barney style" before you corrected it. If you truely want to be understood and taken seriously, it seems you'd put forth a little more effort in your communication skills. Due u no what i mean?
Bird: "you know what happens when you guess and assume...especially when you assume wrong ....
You show your weakness by attacking me personally, try to concentrate on the topic of discussion...if you can't i understand."
Understand? Understand what?...that you have yet to provide evidence for your subjective belief? We all understand that much. It's Jaybird who seems to be lacking of what "objective" evidence means.
objective: adjective.
based on real facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings. (Cambridge online Dictionary)
Until you provide said evidence, your being here is much like a circling knat at a picnic, so yeah, don't act shocked when/if you're treated as such.
Just curious...
-B
Really? How do you know this?
"Basically all probabilities are proportionate to something that will or will not happen only time will tell."
Exactly my point. Since there is no point of reference for determining the probabilities of life spontaneously generating, all attempts to craft percentages of probability is mere fabrication and imagination. Apparently life can spontaneously generate, because here we are.
If you don't like that answer, keep in mind that your answer is identical, which basically states that since we exist, God exists. Or because God exists, we exist.
Since we exist, spontaneous generation of life is not only possible, it is inevitable. My proof? Here we are.
Then he said: "you know what happens when you guess and assume..."
"It's probably" is a three word phrase that means the same thing as assume. — Roget's
Irrelevant conclusion.
Is an elephant stronger than man? Of course, but man doesn't get trampled to death by the elephant, not because man doesn't have the "strength" of an elephant, but because man is intelligent enough(most of the time) to avoid being in the situation to BE trampled. Addtionally, man can create a weapon that can drop an elephant, if need be.
Mankind didn't get to the top of the evolutionary chain by size and "strength", but by intelligence.
Incidentally, there are now many people working on the problem of how to create organisms from "nothing." What will Christians say when they succeed?
1st my blog is totally awesome thanks for visiting it.
2nd lets all try to be nice, please.
3rd - no more circular arguements. people bash Christians for it so lets have arguements from logic, reason and faith.
The whole strenght comparison was a jab at the idea that if animals evolve why would we not retain strength, or under water breathing abilities - things that are good to have in terms of survival, as well as bigger badder brains. And why if i am evolving do i not take all i can at any cost to be the best procreating as much as possible?
You're welcome. But isn't "pride" a "sin" where you're from?
won2: "2nd lets all try to be nice, please."
Sure, let's all try.
won2: "3rd - no more circular arguements. people bash Christians for it so lets have arguements from logic, reason and faith."
No circular arguments? Okay, why is the Christian Bible absolute "Truth"; and who created God? As for "faith"?... we lost faith in "faith". Notice--EX, or "formerly" Christian, as the site's title.
won2: "The whole strenght comparison was a jab at the idea that if animals evolve why would we not retain strength(?)"
Again, with intelligence, you don't need "strenght". Our brains have evolved to get bigger, and our muscles smaller. Brains, not brawn = )
won2: "...or under water breathing abilities.."
Gee I don't know, if the earth is 2/3rds water, why didn't your God create us with gills?
won2: "...things that are good to have in terms of survival, as well as bigger badder brains."
Whaaa? Please compare the brain-size to body-size RATIO of a human being, to a 25 ft python. It has a brain the size of an acorn.
won2 asked: "And why if i am evolving do i not take all i can at any cost to be the best procreating as much as possible?"
So, are you telling the class that the only orgasms you've had, or will EVER HAVE, will be to make children? lol!..good stuff!
Here's hoping...
"...if animals evolve why would we not retain strength, or under water breathing abilities - things that are good to have in terms of survival, as well as bigger badder brains."
Evolution isn't enhancement. It's change. If survival depends upon certain attributes more than others, the attributes that contribute most will be retained and/or improved while the others diminish. They're still there, but aren't used or even usable, or remain only as seemingly useless genetic variations.
The mechanisms of evolution provide for this change.
"And why if i am evolving do i not take all i can at any cost to be the best procreating as much as possible?"
There is no drive to evolve, as such. It just happens. We all feel compelled to mate from time to time, just as we feel compelled to eat, drink, sleep, and so on. The instinct to procreate is there, but that doesn't eliminate the other factors that influence living.
As for humans, we have also evolved the ability to reason and make value judgments. Thus, instinct isn't as much of a driving force for us as it appears to be for other creatures. However, it is there.
Men are in general more attracted to curvaceous women partly because those curves demonstrate certain features that are favorable for procreation. Women are in general more attracted to physically fit and assertive men (the Alpha male) because those are signs of the ability to provide and protect. That's instinct in action. These are generalizations, however, because instinct doesn't always override personal choice & preference. Also, looks can be deceiving.
Even animals exhibit signs of being selective with whom they mate with. Females tend to mate with the male that is a) the biggest or strongest; b) able to overcome the female's resistance, which is kind of a test of worthiness, so to speak. In other words, they also attempt to mate most often with the Alpha male equivalent for their species. By your reasoning, the females of any given species would be giving it up for all comers. It doesn't work that way, much to the chagrin of many males.
Anyway, it's midnight and I have to be up in 5 hours so this will have to be it for tonight.
BTW, to all my fellow Ex-Christians, I've changed my blogger name yet again. This is UberGeek, signing off.
Q: Can anything come from nothing?
Q: Can something come from nothing?
Q: If you are choosing between Nothing and a creator. Then you have to choose a creator.
Q: Am i missing something here?
You can't define life coming about through evolution, they are not, as was pointed out, necessarily co-existant. So Life came about from unlife...? I find this not possible to believe.
Q: Am i missing something here
These are all rhetorical questions by the way. Please do not answer them aloud/written, just think.
Also you can't be an ex-christian. You can be an ex-religious person of christian philosophy. But not an ex-christian.
"Most of those who disbelieve in God and His most assured presence have come to this conclusion because of the inability to live at the level of morality they or someone else has prescribed for them." -unknown
Ah yes, that's much better. Now how about a few deep knee-bends and jumping jacks before we get started?
William: "Q: Can anything come from nothing?"
A: Yes, according to quantum mechanics. So-called vacuum fluctuations are predicted by quantum mechanics and are observable through experiment. Read up on 20'th century physics; there are all sorts of surprises. The "law" of cause and effect also went down in about 1930.
William: "Q: Can something come from nothing?"
(see above)
William: "Q: If you are choosing between Nothing and a creator. Then you have to choose a creator."
First, why are those the only two choices? Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Second, on what do you base your choice of "creator"? You assert that I must choose it too; on what grounds? Sounds like you too are performing cosmology from the comfort of an armchair.
William: "Q: Am i missing something here?"
Yes, quite a bit. 1) Your argument is based on a faulty premise (that nothing can come from nothing), and 2) your reasoning is fallacious (false dichotomy + argument from ignorance). So, you need to shore up your argument in terms of facts and in terms of logic. Good luck with that.
William: "You can't define life coming about through evolution, they are not, as was pointed out, necessarily co-existant."
I think you are confused. Evolution explains the transformation of life, not its origin, which is a completely orthogonal issue.
William: "So Life came about from unlife...? I find this not possible to believe."
If you are arguing that life must have been "created" because you simply cannot imagine any alternative, than that is an argument from ignorance--one of the fundamental logical fallacies. By the same logic is has been "proven" that man cannot fly and that the sun orbits the earth.
William: "Q: Am i missing something here"
Yes, you certainly are. What you are missing is that your intuition is not a window onto reality; it's shaped by terrestrial observations, culture, and our collective biology. Just because you find something unimaginable you cannot therefore conclude that it cannot be. Many many things in science are extremely bizarre and conflict with our naive intuition, such as relativity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, evolution, etc. Intuition can be very useful for deciding which problems to work on, and which directions to pursue, but it is not a way to make pronouncements about what is.
William: "These are all rhetorical questions by the way. Please do not answer them aloud/written, just think."
Too late. I already answered them. Why would you not want answers, William? If you are wrong about something, do you not wish to be corrected?
William then arrogantly asserts the tired old mantra about there being no such than as an ex-Christian, and treats us to this little quote (source unknown): "Most of those who disbelieve in God and His most assured presence have come to this conclusion because of the inability to live at the level of morality they or someone else has prescribed for them."
Now, William, I'm going to ask YOU to think a little. On what is that vindictive little quote based? Show me how this was arrived at. Was it a poll? Was it somebody's opinion? Where did it come from, and why do you think it's true? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I'd really like an answer.
To John Paulos: I agree with your main argument that the raw probability of an event does not tell you anything about the space of all events. As you point out, there are a huge number of alternative paths that evolution could take. Simply arguing that one particular path is a priori unlikely is pretty much meaningless.
You also mention the underlying assumption that creationists make with regard to statistical independence. I realize you could not cover everything in your post, but in my opinion assuming statistical independence of all the events that "conspire" to form a new species or a new organism is orders of magnitude more problematic than ignoring all the possible pathways. In other words, it's an even BIGGER blunder (as hard as that may be to imagine).
I've done some calculations on a contrived statistical model to show how powerful feedback is (statistical independence ignores feedback, of course) in even seemingly trivial mechanisms. It's easy to construct a hypothetical process that would take billions of years to find a given configuration when feedback is ignored, yet just a few seconds when feedback is accounted for. So, figures that are arrived at by assuming statistical independence are not worth they paper they are written on. It's junk science. (Need I point out that virtually every creationist argument makes this assumption without even acknowledging it?)
To JAYBIRD:
You said " When one considers that a structure as "simple" as the wing on a fruit fly involves 30-40 genes (Bird, 1:88), it is mathematically absurd to think that random genetic mutations can account for the vast diversity of life on earth."
That's nothing more than an argument from incredulity. You simply cannot imagine it, so you deem it impossible, and I'll wager that you did so without even understanding how one would model such a thing "mathematically". Looking at that link you provided, it's crammed with junk science (as others have already pointed out). The numbers that are trotted out are fanciful, to put it politely, and the assumptions are ridiculous. This comes nowhere near qualifying as mathematics in my opinion.
You know, Jaybird, there are tens of thousands of scientific papers and hundreds of books written by competent scientists, statisticians, and mathematicians that incorporate real honest-to-goodness peer-reviewed science and mathematics; many of them directly or indirectly debunk the claims that you make. Have you availed yourself of any of them? Put more simply, have you tried to understand what the scientific consensus is on any of these points and why?
Most of the people who believe in the existance of god, and do so, even in light of god's most unassured presence, have come to this conclusion because of their inability to live in reality; their inability to fathom their own non-existance; their inability to determine right from wrong. Subsequently, they need to create, worship, and believe in, a cosmic "parent" in the sky---one who will promise them an escape from reality; assure them that they aren't going to die; dictate how to live as self-secure and compassionate members of society---all because they believe that this one and only natural life, isn't good enough for them.---'boom.